The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 343: Kelly McGonigal - The Power Of Discipline, Movement, & Stress

Starting point is 00:00:00 When people realize that even in a situation where they're meant to be a leader, that being a leader is about bringing out the best that's in a room, it allows you to be more flexible and more responsive in a way that the people who are in there having that experience are going to actually be the best versions of themselves. I guess that's sort of the other takeaway is people will often rise to your expectations of them. And if you enter a situation thinking, like, I'm so glad to have this team, even if you don't know them yet, the right people are in the room. And I'm so excited to discover who these people are and what they have to contribute. Again, that mindset, too, will change who you are and it will change who they are if they are given permission. After five plus years, more than 350 interviews and far more more. vulnerability that I'm normally comfortable with, my book, Welcome to Management is now available for pre-order, including the forward written by legendary four-star general Stanley McChrystal.

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Starting point is 00:01:41 How to go from top performer to excellent leader. Go to learningleader.com for more details. Welcome to The Learning Leader Show, presented by Brewer. Rixie and Meyer, I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text, learners to 4-4-2-2-2. In order to join tens of thousands of learning leaders from all over the world. Receive Mindful Monday updates what I'm reading, writing, watching, thinking about.

Starting point is 00:02:15 Also, give you the opportunity to be part of my book launch team. Text, learners to 4-4-2-2-2. Now, on to tonight's featured leader. It's the great Kelly McGonagall, research psychologist, professor at Stanford, an award-winning science writer. Her scientific research focuses on the mind-body connection and how to cultivate resilience and compassion. She's also the international best-selling author of multiple books,

Starting point is 00:02:41 including the willpower instinct, the upside of stress, and most recently, the joy of movement. A few of the topics we discussed. She shares the critical component to improving your willpower. And then Kelly shows you how, to cultivate a mindset that embraces stress and activates your brain's natural ability to learn from challenging experiences. And during this part of the conversation, she shares how she prepared for the TED Talk

Starting point is 00:03:12 that she gave, which just so happened to go viral with more than 20 million views. And then she captured my attention by sharing why movement and exercise is integral to both our happiness and our humanity. This one was so good and entertaining. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Kelly McGonagall. All right, Kelly, it's so good to have you here on The Learning Leaders Show. Welcome. Well, thanks for having me.

Starting point is 00:03:44 I'm excited to have this conversation. Good. To get us going, you know that I am fascinated by people who have found a way to sustain excellence. And you have a fascinating career and you've surrounded yourself with others who also live interesting, lives and in your research, you've certainly read and written about them. I'm curious from your perspective, Kelly, what have you found to be some of the commonalities among people who have sustained excellence? It's a really interesting question because, you know, when I hear that question, I have to

Starting point is 00:04:19 start to think in my mind, how do I even define excellence? If I were to look out at people in my personal life or professionals I admire, what am I even looking at that I view as a metric of something that I would, want to to achieve myself. And I really think that it's about feeling like you are contributing to the world in a way that's consistent with your personal values. So when I think about the people, I look around, I'm like, I would love to have their life. Or I would love to feel every day when I wake up in the morning that I'm contributing in the same way that they are. It's really people who have a sense of who they are, a sense of what their strengths and talents are, and have found a way

Starting point is 00:05:01 to kind of lean into what they care about and who they are as unique individuals and to let that be their, both their anchor and what guides them in making choices. And I think that's probably been the secret to my success as well to trust. I think that's another thing I would say in terms of sustaining excellence is people have a trust in themselves, whether to trust in their vision or trust often in their intuition about whether something is a good thing to say yes to or not, whether it's time to take a risk or make a change, and not paying a lot of attention to either how things are usually done or what other people think would be a good metric of success. People are out there paving their own paths instead of looking for sort of a guaranteed path to success.

Starting point is 00:05:54 Wow. Okay. So how Thinking about that that kind of definition of sustaining excellence, how has this impacted your life choices and what you've decided to do?

Starting point is 00:06:08 And I think there's a follow-up that I'm already thinking of, but I want you to answer that one first because I'm curious to see how it's put you on the path that you're on. Yeah, I would say that I feel very fortunate that I have a very strong sense of direction. that I have almost a physiological embodied response when I should say yes to something. And I've had that as far back as I can remember to when I was, you know, quite young, a kid where something my body says yes when I should try something new or I should make a certain

Starting point is 00:06:40 decision like where to go to college or should I take this job or not. And I learned very quickly to trust it because often other people would tell me it was the wrong choice. And I feel like, so my career has turned out to look not like, like the typical career of somebody who has done the things I've done. You know, I'm not right now a tenured research professor producing science is sort of what I was trained to do when I earned my PhD. And that's because along the way, something would happen like I discovered that I loved teaching. And the people around me would say, don't waste your time on teaching. You're a researcher.

Starting point is 00:07:14 You need to produce science. Teaching is a waste of time. And my body would say, that's bad advice. I'm going to double down and invest in becoming a better teacher and teach everywhere in any way I can. Why would somebody say teaching would be a bad? I feel like I can't fathom somebody saying that, but I know I don't live in the academic work. That's how academics work, yeah. I mean, if you are, unless you're at a teaching college, if you are a scientist. You know, it's changing a little bit, but, you know, I started my PhD 20 years ago,

Starting point is 00:07:41 and that was the crystal clear advice I got. That teaching was not the path? Why? Why is that? That seems backwards to me. Well, I'm not going to defend the system, but in academics, you know, the, the way that you succeed as a research scientist is you get grants and you produce publications and you manage research teams. And it's like it's, you know, being a leader in a company that produces

Starting point is 00:08:09 research. That's what a highly successful academic would do. And that's sort of the system that I entered when I started my PhD. But I realized that I liked helping people and I liked working with people and I like seeing the immediate impact of something that I could do, whether it was teaching a psychology class or teaching a yoga class. And so I listened to my gut and found a way to step off of that sort of tenure track academic path and keep following what my heart was telling me to do. And I've had similar examples like that with what books should you write or what should you value of the work that you do. One of the reasons that my current book is about exercise. is because I never abandoned that passion, even when people were like, well, that's sort of a frivolous thing to do, to be a group fitness instructor.

Starting point is 00:09:00 You have a PhD. You should be out there doing, I guess, PhD things. And I always felt that my sort of greatest contribution to humanity on a day-to-day basis was to show up and create a place where people could move and breathe and sweat and connect with one another and to not listen to maybe some direct messages I was receiving, that that wasn't as valuable as other things that I might be doing. With all that said, though, your books are, you do a really good job of being a story and science approach type writer, which are my favorite kind of books. Certainly when I'm reading nonfiction, what I mean by that is that you tell the story because a story is memorable. And then you support the story with the research, with the science to back it up. And then even a step further is the application to my life. That's how I try to write and read and speak, whether it's on stages or wherever. It's story, science, application to life.

Starting point is 00:09:59 And I sense that seems to be a style that you adhere to when writing and speaking. How many people in the world have a TED talk with over 20 million views? It's not many. And you do. And you have these books that are research. intensive, yet you just, you feel like more of a teacher than a researcher, even though I would say you're certainly both. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:24 Well, so the reason I love stories is because I love connecting with other human beings. So when I think about, you know, why I include stories in my books, it's because I want the person at home reading it to suddenly feel connected to a stranger, to see some aspect of their inner experience, whether, you know, it's a struggle with procrastination or dealing with a loss, to see that described in another human being's life and to have a sense of common humanity. And then the science with stories, I feel like the science is great, not because it's proving some idea, but because it's revealing something about human nature and who we are. I feel like the science is in its own way can be as inspiring as a story.

Starting point is 00:11:10 And then both of those, right, then as you said, point the way to application. that when you see how something can unfold in an individual's life and you have that sort of concrete image and that sense of possibility and connection, and then the science tells you something amazing about how the brain works or something like that, then together, that gives us the hope and the guidance to then make a difference in our own lives. So for our talk, Kelly, I'd love to focus on three specific parts, and one of them will be more than the other two. but first is you've written about willpower.

Starting point is 00:11:47 You've also written about stress. And most recently, you've written about movement. And I have a ton of notes on The Joy of Movement, your most recent book. And it's incredibly well done. Highly, highly recommend it. But I want to start with Willpower. And then we'll get to the movement part here in a second. Because what I gather is some may make a nature versus nurture argument when it comes to willpower.

Starting point is 00:12:13 And your argument is it's a mind, body response, not a virtue. It's a biological function that can be improved through mindfulness, exercise, nutrition, and sleep. For a person today listening who may feel they lack this skill, what are some of the ways that you or advice you would give them kind of at a higher level, but to say you can improve this? here are some ways to do it outside of, you know, reading your whole book, which you should do, obviously. But in addition to that, what are some ways they could get better from a willpower perspective? Yeah. So to answer that question, we should start by defining willpower and why people often feel like they're lacking it.

Starting point is 00:12:57 So I define willpower as the ability to make choices that are consistent with your highest values and goals, even when it's difficult, even when some part of you doesn't want to. And if you think about something that you would say challenging. your willpower. And you could just even like take a moment, think about what those things are day to day. People often name temptations, things they do that they think they shouldn't do, but they just find it so pleasurable or it's a really strong habit. Often people will identify things that they don't do that they should do, either because they find it boring or often there's anxiety and fear or self-doubt involved. And so there are things they're not doing that are consistent with their values and goals.

Starting point is 00:13:37 So if you think about what challenges your willpower, there's almost always two. parts of you that are in a kind of a competition. There's the part of you who knows what your values and goals are and has that big picture vision for yourself in your life. And there's another part of you that just wants immediate gratification and comfort, does not want the stress and anxiety, wants to feel good right now, and doesn't necessarily want to put in a lot of effort that's going to be uncomfortable and maybe have uncertain results. And those are both two really important parts of human nature, a human being would not survive without both of those instincts to seek out immediate gratification and safety and comfort and also the ability to put that aside and invest in your future,

Starting point is 00:14:23 even when it requires a lot of energy or a lot of courage or resisting some impulses. So we need both of them. And that's why I say this is something that can be developed because there's no human born who doesn't have both capacities. And there's a lot of things in our environment and in our culture that probably nudge us towards that version of ourselves who looks for immediate gratification and comfort. And so we're pulled in a lot of ways to be that version of ourselves. So when I am encouraging people to think about developing or training their willpower, I'm really talking about doing things that make it easier to be that version of yourself who has the courage, who has the vision, who is very clear about your values, and is able to make

Starting point is 00:15:05 those choices. So one of the simplest things I always encourage people to do is you have have to be clear about your values and your goals. Willpower is not about doing all the things you don't want to do because your doctor told you had to or because someone in your life is nagging you about it or there's some story in your head from when you were a teenager about how to be a successful person and who you should be. That's not willpower. Willpower is knowing what you want so that you can marshal your energy and your resources

Starting point is 00:15:32 in that direction. And one of the first things I recommend people do is every morning before you get out of bed or if that's too much to remember than when you're drinking your morning coffee to do like a 30 second commitment to what is most important to you that day and how you want to show up in the world. And I literally won't get out of bed until I do this. I've been doing this for probably 15 years now. So it's a really strong habit. And no matter what chaos is happening in my home, I'm like what is how I literally will

Starting point is 00:15:59 not get out of bed until I've made a commitment to myself about what my most important values and goals are that day. So you could think of that as sort of remembering who you are. And if it's not first thing in the morning, then maybe it's another time of the day when you're able to make that kind of commitment. And then you mentioned things that are about taking care of your body and about your physical health. And we know that there's a certain state of the body and brain that allows you to be that version of yourself who can control impulses and make choices that really require courage or focus or long-term thinking. And you could think of it as the state of your brain and body that has a body. abundant resources. If you think about this as an evolutionary adaptation, you're going to be more

Starting point is 00:16:44 willing to invest in your future when your present feels secure. So all the things that you mentioned, getting enough sleep, eating food that is basically healthy, I won't give dietary advice, but you know, food that keeps your blood sugar relatively stable and is producing health rather than producing, you know, huge levels of inflammation in your body, whatever works best for your particular of physiology, feeding yourself well, sleeping enough. Exercise has its whole other set of ways that it produces a body and brain that are really good at self-control. But if you think about investing in your physical health as a resource, that it actually creates a different default brain state where you're more likely to have the courage and the focus that you need. And the last sort of set

Starting point is 00:17:27 of very practical things to do is also assume that there are going to be days when you're exhausted or sick or distracted and to create an environment that reminds you of your goals and supports them so that it's easier to do the thing that is consistent with your goals and it's harder to make the choices that you will regret later. And those are the types of advice you often hear from people like stock your fridge with the stuff you want to eat, not the stuff you don't want to eat, or put on your desk the thing you want to do first thing in the morning so you don't have to think about it, it's already there for you, or whatever it is that creates an environment that really nudges you in the right direction. How does the role of discipline? We've seen people where they're

Starting point is 00:18:13 saying, well, he or she is so much more disciplined than me or somebody else. What role does that play in environmental design as it plays with willpower? Well, you know, discipline has both positive and negative connotation. So one version I'd like to throw out immediately is the idea of disciplining yourself through shame or punishment. Like if you did something wrong, then you need to punish yourself by or shame yourself with self-criticism, the kind of discipline that a child would receive from a parent. So let's throw that version out. That other positive version of discipline, which is that people basically do what they say they're going to do. So they have what I would call integrity. And they are very clear about what matters to them. So because of that clarity,

Starting point is 00:19:00 it is easier to make choices that other people might look at and say, wow, they're so disciplined. They get up every morning and put in an extra hour toward some creative project or toward exercise or whatever it is. They're investing in themselves. That looks like discipline. But my guess is it's this combination of integrity and clarity. And then most likely they have created an environment that supports them when it is more difficult when you didn't get that good night's sleep or when the self-doubt is starting to creep in. So my guess is that what looks like discipline from the outside is probably more about a sense of purpose and about having figured out for yourself what are the structures and what are the commitments you can make that really sort of,

Starting point is 00:19:47 support yourself. I know that there are temperamental differences. I mean, I understand behavioral genetics. Some people pop out of the womb with a little bit more conscientiousness than others. But I really think that anyone can develop the kind of discipline you're talking about. If they're clear enough about what they want and why it matters, I think there's nothing, there's no more powerful force than that type of clarity. You know, I'm someone who struggles with anxiety, for example. And it's the only source of courage in my life. is to have a clear sense of how, if I'm doing something that scares me, that it is contributing something to the world,

Starting point is 00:20:25 whether it's to my family or whether it's to humanity at large. And that comes with tremendous energy. And I think that when people are clear about what matters to them, there's a kind of vitality that comes forward that can surprise you with what you're suddenly capable of. Okay. Stress. this um i think love it you've yes bring it on yes uh you've kind of gone viral i wouldn't say

Starting point is 00:20:55 kind of you've gone viral when it comes to stress um which is it sounds funny actually saying that out loud but there is a lot to learn about this for most people and one of your arguments is why stress is good for you and how and you've shared uh in the past how to get good at it And so I think my listeners and me, quite frankly, are curious to learn how we could cultivate a mindset that embraces stress and activates the brain's natural ability to learn from challenging experiences because this is potentially a block in our minds right now. What are some things we can do to activate that? So stress is what happens in your brain and body when something that you care about is at stake. And there are a lot of different ways the brain and body can respond to help you rise to the challenge or marshal your resources or, you know, survive and then learn and grow from the experience. And I think the most important thing when people want to get better at stress, one of the most important things you can do is accept that your brain and body is going to produce stress all the time, especially if you have a meaningful life.

Starting point is 00:22:09 and there are roles and relationships and goals that you care about because the human brain and body, it's not a mistake. Sometimes people talk about stress. Like it's this baggage we carry from hundreds of thousands of years ago back when life really was stressful and we had to evade predators. But now we have this clunky system that keeps producing fighter flight and it's so toxic for us. And, you know, we're these sort of broken beings who don't know how to respond to life in a skillful way. And that is totally not consistent with the science or reality. So I think that's the most important idea for people to come to terms with is that there is a reason you experience stress all the

Starting point is 00:22:49 time. It is what gives you energy. It is what reminds you of what matters. And it's what pushes you to ask for help or to team up with others. And it's what keeps you up at night so that you can figure out how to learn from an experience and then make meaning from it and move forward in a positive way. And all of that is built into the biology of our stress response system. So when you, when you come to terms of that, the first thing that happens is you stop thinking that every time you're stressed out, it's a sign that you can't handle life, which is, I think, the message many of us have gotten, that if work is stressful, it's a sign that you can't handle this job. You should look for another one. You can't cut it. If a relationship is stressful, we think, I'm a bad parent, I'm a bad

Starting point is 00:23:29 partner, or worse, I got the wrong kids, I got the wrong partner. There's some version of a relationship out there that would be meaningful but stress-free. We're pursuing a goal and it's stressful. Maybe we think, ah, it's not the right time. You know, maybe I should wait until I can pursue this goal in a way that doesn't provoke any stress. And then that's, you know, how you create a life free of challenge and meaning. So if you accept that stress as part of life, then you can start to get interested in,

Starting point is 00:23:57 well, how do I respond to stress? What is stress, how is stress trying to direct me toward responses? that really would be skillful in this situation. So if I accept reality and I accept what I'm dealing with, whether it's a minor stress like responsibilities at work that are interesting but challenging or like a real crisis in your personal life or your health or even trying to change the world in a meaningful way where you're up against big forces to think, okay, well, I'm feeling some stress about this.

Starting point is 00:24:29 What is my body and brain? What are they trying to nudge me towards? And what's so fascinating is that we have these different types of stress responses that give us different kinds of strength. So one of my favorite is I call the bigger than self-stress response that basically pushes us to try to find other people who are in the same situation as us, to find the people in our lives who care about us and might support us, to basically try to take a not a do-it-yourself approach to a problem, but a do-it-together approach to a problem. And there's a whole biology behind that. And as soon as you recognize that a stressful situation is bigger than self, you can't do it all on your own, and you aren't alone. People care about you, and there are other people who know what this is like. You know, it creates this biological response that pushes you out there with a kind of hope and courage to find the support and to come together to deal with it.

Starting point is 00:25:20 And it happens to be really healthy for you. It's not a toxic stress response. It's good for your heart. It's good for your immune system. So often when I'm helping people get better at stress, what I'm trying to have, help them do is figure out what are these healthy stress responses and there are a bunch of them. And how do you figure out which one to focus on so that you can unleash your brain and body's best way to do that? And, you know, it's some of the takeaways that are really simple to apply

Starting point is 00:25:46 is if you're in a stressful situation that is kind of more that do it yourself challenge, like you're giving a talk or you're having a difficult conversation that you want to show up for or you're in a competition and you want to do really well. That you just tell you. yourself that your anxiety and your stress or energy that you can harness. And actually, there is an Olympic athlete who I helped with this, who ended up meddling at the last winter Olympics because she told herself that she was channeling the energy of her anxiety right before her big event. And this is something that I think people who are really good at high performance naturally do. But you can also learn to do it. So let's get practical for the

Starting point is 00:26:29 the type of person who may be listening. Let's say somebody just got promoted and they're now the manager of a team and they're meeting their new team, Kelly, for the first time and they're preparing for that very first meeting knowing this is the first impression I'm going to make on the team that I am now charged with leading. This is my role. I care a lot about this. And they're right now listening and they're getting prepared for this first meeting and

Starting point is 00:26:56 they're stressed out. They're worried. They're concerned. they're going to not make the right first impression. And this is causing, you know, them to not be able to sleep well at night, right? Because they care. They really care. My dad's always told me, you know, man, it's a lot harder when you care.

Starting point is 00:27:12 And I certainly agree with that. What for that? I don't agree with that. You don't agree. I think it's, oh my gosh. You know what is really hard is not caring. That's called depression. Wait, wait, wait.

Starting point is 00:27:23 That's called cynicism. No, no, no. I would rather. No, I know exactly what you mean. Okay. I'm giving you a hard time, but actually, I think that sort of language is problematic. I actually was speaking at a major financial institution a couple years ago, basically on this topic. And I remember one young man, these are people who are sort of moving up the system, but were pretty junior in their position.

Starting point is 00:27:47 And this one young man was like, I don't understand why we're talking about how to get good at stress. Isn't it better to just not care? And then you don't get stressed. And I thought to myself, this man, this young man is in trouble if he continues with this thinking, because that's the kind of thinking that leads to, you know, as I said, cynicism or depression in a way that you can basically remove the good stress, but you're never going to get rid of the really the stress you can't control, like health problems or crises in your life or traumas and tragedies and, you know, bad news in the world.

Starting point is 00:28:23 But you can stop caring deeply about the stress. your life where you have some control in a positive direction, whether it's your family or your work or some other purpose or goal. So I think the first thing you should do for this person that you're mentioning is absolutely double down on caring. The moment you think that you care too much and that is a problem is, you know, the moment that the support structure of your stress response system will fall apart because it only gives you the best when it recognizes why this is a moment that matters. Right. So, to your point. Let's get practical. Yeah, for a second, though, let me respond. And I, I'm so glad you brought this up. What I, and I think you get what I mean, but, but when I say this,

Starting point is 00:29:07 the phrase, it's a lot harder when you care. I mean, because you care so, I mean, I care about my family. I care about my children, right? So much, if I didn't care, then I wouldn't have to do anything. But, but, but I do care. So, so it's, there's a lot more work involved when you care about. If I care about giving a great keynote speech, I'm going to prepare like crazy. I'm going to use some of the Jim Collins productive paranoia to be good when I get on stage to serve those people. So when I say, I guess it's a lot harder when you care. I mean, it just takes more effort, more work to deliver for the people that you care about than if you did not. If you were getting a keynote and you truly didn't care about the people and you truly didn't care about how you were going to do,

Starting point is 00:29:51 then you wouldn't have to prepare. wouldn't have to do anything, you'd just show up, do a lackluster job, and you would go home. So I think that... Can you imagine what that would be like? Be horrible. That would be so... Terrible. I guess I should just say, I guess I like things that are hard.

Starting point is 00:30:04 And rather, I'm with you. It's harder and that's what brings the rewards. Right. I think we agree. Definitely. Okay. Okay. But I mean, I'm glad you brought that up there just to change.

Starting point is 00:30:15 I think sometimes, because I'm a psychologist who's focused so much on mindset and the way we describe things, you know, like we were talking about willpower. Yeah. And people use it often. to describe the things they don't want to do and the things that other people think they should do and how problematic that is for actually being able to harness your own willpower. We have to redefine it. It's one of the reasons why I like to redefine stress too is what arises when something that you care about is at stake because most people are defining it as a toxic state in your brain and body

Starting point is 00:30:46 that is going to destroy your life and kill you and make you miserable. And if that's your definition of stress, you start to, you know, try to avoid anything that's stressful rather than say, this is hard, but I care. So let's do this so that I can reap the meaning and the rewards. So that's all. I sometimes like to get in it about definitions because at the end of the day, in moments of stress or moments of temptation, these things can matter. They can make, they can make a difference in what you choose to do. But so, okay, we have your individual first team meeting. Yes. So there are actually two very practical. strategies. One is if this is actually like I'm showing up, like this is happening. This has happened

Starting point is 00:31:27 for me. And I remember the feeling. So I took, I got promoted, but it was into a different industry. So it's not like I had mastered the, I was a VP of sales. And all of a sudden, everybody that reported to me knew more about the product we were selling than I did. Yet I was all of their, you know, like 40 plus people's bosses. That, that was a nerve-wracking feeling. What am I supposed to say? What am I going to do. They know more than me. And as I was preparing, I spent an amazing amount of time, got a lot of help from other people. And I think it went fine. But I'm curious from you being a really smart, well-educated PhD, how you would approach something like this. Yeah, well, it sounds actually like you did a lot of smart things in the response you just described.

Starting point is 00:32:13 But I would say the first thing is you get rid of the idea that it shouldn't be stressful. So whether it's five minutes before the meeting or five weeks before it, you sort of surrender that fantasy and say, okay, I'm going to be anxious when I think about it. Maybe I'm going to be worried when I prepare for it. And so often we don't even bother to prepare for something because we don't like how it feels because it makes us, you know, it makes us stressed out. So we decide, I'll postpone that stress until the actual meeting. And that's when, you know, people give presentations they haven't practiced. Exactly. They try to wink.

Starting point is 00:32:46 Okay. So let's forget that. Let's accept and embrace. whether it's anxiety or self-doubt or stress or pressure, however you would describe it, that that's going to be part of the process. And all that is is a signal that you care and it's energy that you can then point towards something productive. So to have that reset.

Starting point is 00:33:05 The second thing is to take that bigger than self-perspective. So this is a perfect example of a situation that you can define in really egocentric ways. Like, I have to make a good impression. I need to perform in a certain way that's going to be. make them see me in a positive way. And that in this situation is not going to be nearly as effective as taking a sort of beyond the ego point of view on what this meeting can accomplish. So in addition to introducing yourself to a team, this is about allowing a team to have a moment together. And if you think, like, what are my goals for coming into this role in the biggest sense?

Starting point is 00:33:48 to support these individuals, to support this team, to support the mission of the organization or the industry, to really think about how this new role will allow you to do something bigger than make a good impression on these people. To be very clear about that, and studies show, by the way, if you do this right before a meeting, it changes not only how you, you know, you'll perform better in that meeting, but one really interesting study found that people who think about their bigger than self goals, how this role will allow them to contribute to something bigger than just, you know, making a good impression that not only do they make a better impression, but their whole physiology changes. They make more eye contact. They do more unconscious mimicry

Starting point is 00:34:32 of other people's body language and emotions. They basically enter a psychological and physiological state that allows you to connect with other people and be more responsive in a really skillful way. people should never underestimate how important these mindset resets are because when you are clear about what your intention is, your brain and body shift into a state that supports your intention. So it can sound very woo-woo. It's not magic. It's just if you're clear about what you're there for, your brain and body want to support you. So I think that having that bigger than self-intention is so important.

Starting point is 00:35:07 And the other thing I often tell people to do is you should always assume that other people in a room have something as valuable as whatever you might be there to contribute and to really look at other human beings as full, full human beings who have wisdom and life experience and have their own agenda for any particular meeting and try to find a way to let even a meeting that you're leading, let it be co-created by the individuals in the room. And this is a skill set. So I can't exactly say this is how you do it in every circumstance in a 30 second sound bite. But it's something that when people realize that even in a situation where they're meant to be a leader, that being a leader is about bringing out the best that's in a room, it allows you to be more flexible and more responsive

Starting point is 00:35:59 in a way that the people who are in there having that experience are going to actually be the best versions of themselves. I guess that's sort of the other takeaway is, people will often rise to your expectations of them. And if you enter a situation thinking, like, I'm so glad to have this team, even if you don't know them yet, the right people are in the room. And I'm so excited to discover who these people are and what they have to contribute.

Starting point is 00:36:27 Again, that mindset too will change who you are and it will change who they are if they are given permission. So in a way, your own mindset can change not just what's happening in your brain, but also what's happening sort of collectively in the room. What were you thinking in the moments before you got up on the TED stage to give a talk that now has since been viewed more than 20 million times? I'm so glad you asked that question.

Starting point is 00:36:54 I'm going to tell you a story that I've always wanted to tell. I can't think if I've ever told this before because it actually is going to really underline what I just said. So, first of all, I should say public speaking is not the scariest thing in the world to me because I think of it like teaching. So the flight I had to take from New York City to London to give that talk, that was harder for me because I hate flying. So, you know, part of thinking about like courage and willpower and all that, it's always

Starting point is 00:37:26 about doing the thing that's hard. So, you know, I was kind of looking forward to it. I wasn't panicked in any way. Wait, hold on. You know what's funny is a lot of guests will, and I'm this way too, I guess, when I'm sharing about it, because I get nervous and I still think I use some of that nerves and stress, I think to try to serve the audience. But what you just said is, is like the least relatable thing ever. Really? I think so, given the fact, and I say this.

Starting point is 00:37:52 About public speaking? Yeah. I say this jokingly because I think, you know, we have a good banter here. But I think most people, and I'm hoping maybe your answer is going to help with this, most people, when they think about speaking, even. good speakers, and sometimes it is really good speakers, they already are like, oh, wait, I have a presentation next week, and they start getting really nervous. And then because of those nerves, they don't practice and they don't prepare. And I think the number one rule of public speaking is you've got to practice, you've got to

Starting point is 00:38:20 rehearse over and over and over. And when someone says they don't have the time or they're not rehearsing, then I'm saying you're just not going to be great. So anyway, I say this kind of... Yeah, no, I totally agree with all that. Okay. That, you know, I like preparing. I mean, this is, it's what I do for a living because when I gave that talk in 2013,

Starting point is 00:38:40 you know, I've been teaching as a university lecture for years. It's, to me, it's not that different than getting up in front of a few hundred undergraduates and trying to make them excited about psychology. Yeah. So, so, so, but anyway, so the story, so in this session, you know, I was a little bit nervous, but not, I mean, I wasn't personally having a panic attack about giving the talk. It's just typical nerves. but the woman who spoke before me,

Starting point is 00:39:05 I don't think anyone will be able to know who this is, she had a panic attack on stage while she was giving her talk. Really? And yes, you're not going to see this because Ted is brilliant, and they allowed her to start over, and it got produced into a beautiful talk. So if you actually watch the talk, there's no evidence that this happened.

Starting point is 00:39:25 But when it happened, and she started to melt down on stage, and she couldn't talk, and the host had to come on stage and give her water and like take a moment. And what you could feel was two things happening in the audience. There was this incredible goodwill. The audience wanted her to recover and do well, which is most audiences do. But you could also, there was like a little bit of discomfort too in the audience like, how bad is this going to get?

Starting point is 00:39:54 Like is she going to recover? And so there was two things at once, tremendous goodwill, almost a kind of love from the audience. but also like a sense of an audience member of just also wanting things to get back on track to to being the you know this excellence that you expect from a TED stage and so I was a person going on next and I immediately felt that empathy for her and and also for the audience and so I started doing this practice of imagining I could breathe in her anxiety and breathe out a kind of courage and encouragement and this comes from some of the science I've done is looking at how people can develop compassion for others.

Starting point is 00:40:33 And this is a common practice that scientists have found is really effective. So I'm doing this practice. I'm breathing in, trying to breathe in her anxiety and maybe any shame she's feeling about this unfolding and just breathe out encouragement and courage. And also saying to myself, I'm going to get up there and I'm going to, I'm going to put the audience at ease. I'm going to go out there no matter what nerves I'm feeling. I'm going to look at the audience.

Starting point is 00:40:57 I'm going to make eye contact. and I'm going to let them know, I've got you. Like, whatever just happened, I've got you, and I'm going to take you on a journey and we're in this together, but you can relax now. The combination of those two things of basically sitting there, sending out courage and love and encouragement to someone who's struggling, put me in my bravest possible self. And then, you know, having the sense of I just wanted everyone in the room to take a breath and feel and feel relaxed.

Starting point is 00:41:26 Like we're going to move forward together in the way that you might. recover from from a crisis in life and I said I'm going to be the person who's going to put them in ease and say we're moving forward of course this wasn't an actual crisis but it was that kind of mindset and so I think that the fact that that happened is one of the reasons to talk went viral because independent of the content of the talk I'm sure people can sense that somehow I was in a state of mind that was both about about compassion and courage and and and why wanting to put the people in the room at ease. And I think that that, again, it's, you know, everything comes back to mindset.

Starting point is 00:42:08 And so the version of the talk that came out of me was one where, sure, the words were the same as they would have been in any circumstance. But I was just connected to a version of myself that allowed me to give that talk in a way that landed and resonated. And so, you know, that's, so that I think is part of the secret sauce of the talk that nobody knows about. Wow. Thank you for sharing. How many times did you practice that talk? Not nearly as many times as other people. I got to tell you, I did not take it as seriously as most people do. I wrote the speech.

Starting point is 00:42:42 Did you memorize it? Yeah, they make you memorize it. They don't anymore. I've heard that. I've heard that. So because of the fact that I think some people panic when they have to memorize it. But I did. It's the only talk I've ever given that I memorized because they make you write it down. That seems amazingly hard. country. Yeah, oh, it is. Okay. It is. But I guess if you can memorize song lyrics to do karaoke or whatever, it's, um, yeah. But I, you know, I didn't, I've heard from other people. They get like coaches and I don't know. I just thought of it like I was giving a talk in psych one. Yeah. It actually was a version of my talk that I gave an introduction to psychology at Stanford. And I, I don't know. The thing is, if you blow things up to be so important, it just, it's just another thing. You don't have control. I didn't think that many people would watch it, to be honest. Well, part of what is helpful I would imagine is you've got so many reps and yours are in the classroom.

Starting point is 00:43:35 And so I think that that probably plays a role when it comes to anything in life, getting a lot of repetitions is helpful. And you've got a lot of high quality repetitions with very smart people in the classroom paying a lot of money who you're trying your best to serve and help them and make a positive contribution that that probably... And we can be really clear about this. You know, the reason that I gave a TED talk is because I'm a teacher. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:43:58 Not everyone needs to give a TED Talk. There's something out there. Every person who's listening to this, there's something that they have a lot of reps in. That is their biggest contribution to the world. And we shouldn't just because certain things like TED Talks get a lot of attention doesn't mean that they are the thing everyone should be chasing. There's a lot of things I can't do and will not be my contribution to the world. But sure, TED Talk, that's an extension of who I am as a teacher.

Starting point is 00:44:22 And people should really think about what that is. Like every day, what's the thing you do that contributes to the most. value to your community or to your team or to your cause. And then what's the big version of that? Go chase that. Not necessarily a TED Talk. Let's talk about how exercise helps us find happiness, hope, connection, and courage. The most recent work is on the joy of movement, which I identify with a lot.

Starting point is 00:44:48 As I talked to you prior to us recording, I am a seven day a week morning exercise person. What do you do this morning? So I lift weights. And I run and then I cool down on the elliptical and I read. So I was reading the joy of movement this morning on the elliptical after I got done working out. I guess that was part of the workout and taking notes, last second notes on some things I wanted to talk to you about. We were probably exercising at the same time. I bet we were. I also got up did my morning workout.

Starting point is 00:45:20 Yeah. And so for me though, part of this is the fact though if there ever and there's not many, I'm trying to think of the last one. I just think, and I don't know if sometimes I think it could be an issue. I don't know. I'd be curious that you're the master of this. Is that a problem? Do I have a mental block? Because if I don't get up and do that, even let's say I go to bed at one in the morning

Starting point is 00:45:39 and I have a meeting at six in the morning, I still will wake up with very little sleep to do the workout before the six o'clock meeting. Is that, am I messed up for thinking that way? Because I know how I feel if I don't do it, and it's very bad. That you just described an insight that lead you to make good choices, as far as I'm concerned. You have learned something that many people don't learn because they aren't willing to do the action that would teach them that lesson. You know, people who exercise regularly know that it is the most effective way to immediately make you feel better, improve your mood, improve your mindset in a very specific way that when people go from being sedentary, physically active, and that could include, you know, waking up in the morning and exercising,

Starting point is 00:46:28 or you've been sitting all day, that when they move their bodies, particularly in a way that gets their heart rate up, makes them sweat a little bit, it increases optimism, it increases personal courage, it increases hope, and it increases our ability to connect with other people, and it's driven by endorphins and endocannabinoids and oxytocin and all of these other neurotransmitters and hormones that make us braver and more hopeful and more energized. and better human beings. And it's so reliable, in part because human beings evolved to be active pretty much all day long.

Starting point is 00:47:04 And so we are the best versions of ourselves when we move our bodies a lot. So the fact that you've learned it and you figured it out and you're not willing to negotiate about it, to me, I think that that's wonderful. And I think that if people actually pay attention and forget sort of the cultural messaging we get about why you should exercise, it's so often tied to things like, weight. And if you actually pay attention to your direct experience, you will realize what an incredible tool exercise is to regulate your mood and to create, to access your personal strengths. It's like to be that better version of yourself. How do you use this? And how have you

Starting point is 00:47:42 learn this? Because I feel like we have some similar stories. I just want to share. I, I, because I know you have kind of group exercise classes. And I vividly remember I was probably in like second or third grade. And I know you have this with family as well, but I would sit on the couch and my mom would put in a cassette tape and it would be playing some kind of wild music. And she would practice her routine because she was an aerobics instructor. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:12 My mom was an aerobics instructor. Absolutely for years. And I would sit there and watch and I would hear her. She was do it by herself with just me and my younger brother sitting in the room. And she would practice because, and she would have to yell it really last. This is like in our living room, my house growing up, because she was practicing teaching her class and telling them like, and it was funny, you know, with the tights and those, the socks and the Reeboks, like the whole deal. And I, and so that was my first kind of viewpoint into this group exercise aerobics class. And this was, this happened for years.

Starting point is 00:48:44 And then we would go to the place where she taught and go where the kids would go and play with the other ones, why she was with the adults teaching her class. And I just have that vivid memory for years. and I think you have something similar. Well, yeah. So my mom was the one bringing home VHS tape from garage sales, thinking she would exercise, not exercising. And when I was a little girl, putting them into the VCR and discovering aerobics and how amazing it was to move my body to the beat of music and to synchronize with the bodies on the screen, which is not nearly as good as actually showing up to a gym and what your mom was doing. And I now teach group fitness. I teach something that, you know, modern aerobics, cardio and dance.

Starting point is 00:49:24 And, you know, the funny thing about aerobics is, of course, if you look back at it and you look at videos, it's so easy to think it's a joke. But when you actually do it, if you are the kind of person who has that instinct to move to the beat of music, to synchronize with other bodies, it's like the best drug you can take. And we know that human beings have this capacity both to release endorphins and dopamine, when you move to the beat of music and when you synchronize with other people. You can think of it as, you know, sort of like how humans need to work together to build structures and forage for food and hunt that we actually, we need as a human society to literally work together and synchronize our labor. And that's part of how music actually evolved. And why humans love music is because music helped us come together and do hard things with our bodies together. And that's what's

Starting point is 00:50:18 happening in a group fitness class, whether you're cycling or whether you're doing something like body pump or kickboxing or dance, is we're getting to experience all of these capacities for joy that are part of our human inheritance. And so it looks ridiculous from the outside. But I'm always encouraging everybody to figure out, like, what's that version for you? Maybe you don't want to put on sneakers and jump around in a gym, but maybe you want to, you know, go to CrossFit and do hard things with a community that cheers you on. Or maybe you want to run an obstacle course or run a marathon or maybe you want to play with your kids in the backyard.

Starting point is 00:50:53 But there's something about being active, particularly doing it with other people that unleashes the brain's capacity to produce really deep and meaningful joy. And yeah. I love your quote from Ian Thompson. He said, I have only to think of putting on my running shoes and the kinesthetic pleasure of floating starts to. to come over me. And I have that feeling when it comes to before I'm going to go work out. But Kelly, you and I are kind of been locked up here. But I want to speak to the person who

Starting point is 00:51:26 currently says something like, you guys don't understand. I have such a busy job and life and kids and all this stuff. I don't have time for this. I can try to squeeze in it every once in but you seem to live in the la la land where you can get up and work out, but I have all these other things going on. What is your message to that person who's very busy, right? And there are, no doubt. These people exist. And they're making excuses to say, I don't have time based on everything else.

Starting point is 00:51:59 I have, what do you say to them? I appreciate that. There's certainly been times in my life where I haven't been able to spend as much time being active as I would like. The thing is, there are so few things you can do that pay off as strongly as being active if you are currently inactive. Paying off in every conceivable way from protecting your brain from aging and depression and cognitive decline, like in the long term, preventing every disease you ever don't want to get. And in the immediate aftermath, making you feel better, giving you access to your strengths, creating a neurochemistry that will make you a better parent, that will make you a better

Starting point is 00:52:43 manager, that will make you a better human being. I literally cannot think of another thing you can do, not sleep, not prayer, not anything you can do that would have the same positive effect on every aspect of your well-being in life than exercise. So I can have empathy, but I don't have a lot of, you know, I don't give a lot of credence to that. If you have time for anything, you have time to be active. And I don't say that lightly. There are a lot of things I've told people to do in my career because the research suggests it's beneficial. Things like meditate, things like volunteer.

Starting point is 00:53:19 Things we know are good for you. But man, there's nothing as good for you as movement. So if you tell me you don't have time to do it and you're literally doing anything else in your day, then I tell you you have to get creative and find a way to fit it in, whether it's putting on a song you love and doing, you know, jumping around your living room, this doesn't not require training for an ultra-marathon to get the benefits of movement. And you can start with three minutes. That's the shortest dose, by the way, I could find in the literature of demonstrating the feel-better

Starting point is 00:53:52 effect, because literally it was the shortest dose anyone had tested, that three minutes of being active makes people feel better, gives them more energy. So, I mean, anyone can do that. Yeah. I mean, I would challenge people, too, to say, like, write down everything you do every day for seven days. And if any aspect of that is sitting down watching TV, there's no excuses. And I realize we do need to relax and we need to, you know, I do that too.

Starting point is 00:54:16 I like to watch games and stuff like that. But still, if I had an exercise, then that, then that, the watching the TV is, is gone. It's out. And I'll tell you, too, for me, Kelly, the feeling of those 25 to 30 minutes after a hard workout where I'm on the elliptical going still hard and reading. So I'm combining like the two things I get the most. joy out of which is learning and physically moving my body. I'm on a legitimate high from that for certainly the immediate future and usually for the remainder of the day. And I think it all

Starting point is 00:54:52 traces back to that I'm combining two things I love so much and know they're good for me to do that that I would encourage people to build habits around that. And if you don't currently love it. Find something that you love, but find something where you love how you feel afterward. Right. I talk there's so many people for this book who spent decades thinking they hated exercise because they just hadn't found the right dose type or community.

Starting point is 00:55:21 I think of this one woman who didn't start walking outdoors until her mid-50s and she's in her mid-60s now and now she's running half marathons. But like she always thought exercise. happened indoors on some machine and once she got outdoors she was like whoa I love this there everyone everyone who comes to exercise sort of late in life often has a story like that and so I encourage people to try different things because probably there is something you would love or at the very least there's going to be something where you love how you feel about yourself or having done it and maybe the 20 minutes that you're you're you know engaging in incredible effort maybe you don't

Starting point is 00:56:01 love every minute of that. But for the next 24 hours, you're like, I did that. That's who I am. And you love how that feels. Absolutely. What do you think about walking outside specifically? Yeah, walking is great. So one of the chapters in the book, I talk about how being in nature affects the brain. And I'm not somebody who, I'm not one of those people who is naturally drawn to outdoors. You know, my biggest high is going to come from moving to music and moving with other people. And I've learned that about myself. But I talk to so many people for the book who they become a different version of themselves when they're in nature. And one thing we know is that the human brain often defaults to a state that really is close to worry or judgment or criticism when you leave it to its own devices. Most human minds, they get into the state of sort of thinking with a bit of a negative bias.

Starting point is 00:56:53 You know, what could go wrong. I don't like the way things are. wondering what other people think about me. It's a sort of inner chatter that is not particularly pleasant, nor is it always helpful. And what the latest science shows is that when you are in a natural environment, the default state of the brain shifts away from that kind of inner criticism, worrying rumination. And it shifts into a state that's really this kind of present moment focus that's almost like meditation. It's a kind of a transcendence of all of those worries, that kind of that verbal assault that that the mind can go into that can make life so unpleasant.

Starting point is 00:57:34 And it just enters a state where you are more at peace with who you are and how things are. And so many people find that if they can give themselves, you know, a moment in the day to go outdoors, to connect with nature, it's like pressing this amazing reset button where they feel better able to handle the problems in their lives. They get a break from whatever that that mental thought pattern is that creates so much suffering or anxiety. And they're able to go back to their goals or to their relationships, feeling this, carrying this sense of peace and possibility with them. And so, you know, I think that that's another aspect that really demonstrates part of what makes movement so good for us is it's about restoring us to ways of being that are,

Starting point is 00:58:21 are how humans evolved to really function well. And part of that happens to include being in a natural environment rather than being indoors 24 hours a day. How about a runner's high? You certainly have written about this and I've read a lot about it and feel it from time to time. What can you explain about the runners high? First of all, you don't have to run to get it, which is good news for people like me who don't love to run.

Starting point is 00:58:48 But I have a lot of runners in my life. So I got interested in this because I was kind of curious why, you know, my twin sister and my husband, they love running and they really dedicate a lot of time to it. And I think like, what's so great about running? So I started to investigate the runners high. And I found out that the high that people get when they run is really better described as a persistence high. That when you put your body in motion and it's moderately hard and you just keep going. the brain is like, okay, how can I support this pursuit of whatever this goal is? And so the brain starts to release neurotransmitters like endocannabinoids, which is what

Starting point is 00:59:32 cannabis mimics or marijuana mimics, and also endorphins. And also if you're working really hard, oxytocin and dopamine and adrenaline, that add up to this ability to reduce pain, to provide pleasure, and particularly to increase. optimism, which I think is so fascinating. I mentioned that the primary mindset that exercise produces is this kind of energized optimism. And when people talk about the runners high, they're really describing suddenly something that felt so hard and so uncomfortable, maybe even painful. Suddenly, that pain goes away. It feels easier. It's like a state of flow. You feel like you could go forever. You feel powerful. And there's this quality of optimism that basically is

Starting point is 01:00:20 baked into the human brain and body because human beings are equipped with the capacity to pursue difficult goals. It's right in there. It's probably has to do with the fact that we used to have to hunt and forage for hours a day in order to feed ourselves and our tribe to survive. And so you have a brain and body that's like you're on a hunt. Okay, let's do this. And let me give you the endocannabinoids and endorphins and dopamine you need to keep going even though it's hard. And so what When we exercise, we get to experience that. And that's great. It can be a rush while you're in it.

Starting point is 01:00:55 But the thing that I love about it is, okay, now you're done exercising, and you are in a state of mind and body that says, we can do difficult things. We can pursue important goals. And now I've got the energy and I've got the optimism. And it's not like the running has to be the end all goal. It's like now I am that person. Point me in the direction of my next meaningful goal. And who you are when you approach it is totally different than if you were.

Starting point is 01:01:20 if you had not exercised. I can tell you the challenging workouts my high school football and college football coaches put me through. The fact that I was just able to do them and thrive built this insane amount of optimism and confidence in myself that I felt invincible on game days because I knew we were so prepared from all of the tough things that we had done together. So it's a combination of the confidence built in myself as well as built in the community. meaning my team because I've seen what we accomplished together and there's so much power I think and that's led to everything in my life moving forward of I've I've learned that by doing hard things by preparing by moving my body it's made me better in everything else I do it's really amazing how that works it is and that's we learn from movement movement is also a metaphor

Starting point is 01:02:12 if you think about what we do we lift heavy things we carry burdens we push ourselves we endure. We do these things in movement, and then we learn, these are things that I'm capable of. I can put one foot in front of the other and take one more step, even though I'm exhausted. And it becomes more than a metaphor for movement. It becomes an understanding of who we are and what we're capable of. And I talk to so many people who have amazing stories who they completely reimagine what was possible for themselves because they did a moment.

Starting point is 01:02:49 movement that they never thought they were capable of or they had that experience you described of working with a team to do something incredible and then realizing, wow, that's part of what I'm capable of and I can apply that to any difficulty in my life, whether it's, whether it's, you know, starting a company or getting through cancer treatment. So useful. Kelly, one last question. You're sitting across from one of your students, let's say, in your office, office hours. and they say, Kelly, I'm inspired by your work.

Starting point is 01:03:20 I want to eventually go off and make a positive contribution on the world. What are a few pieces of life advice you would give me to help prepare me to go make a positive contribution on the world? Yeah. So the first thing that comes to mind, especially if this were a young person, is take care of yourself. You have to think about. you need to invest in your well-being and you need to take care of the things that might be holding you back,

Starting point is 01:03:53 you know, deal with things. There are a lot of young people are dealing with addiction or mental health crises. And you need to invest in yourself and take care of yourself so you can be that version of yourself who's going to be able to sustain making a positive difference in the world. And sometimes people who are really passionate about making a positive difference, they neglect themselves. And so that I might start there. You're like, what's something you can do right now that is going to support yourself in being that kind of vessel for whatever it is that you want to offer the world?

Starting point is 01:04:25 Another thing I would suggest is I would ask people, tell me about someone who's made a really positive difference in your life. Because often who we think has been a positive influence on us, it's not necessarily objective. Like something resonates in us when we see in the world what we have the capacity. for. So, you know, someone who might grow up to be an author might tell you about the books they read when they were younger that gave them hope. But somebody who is going to be a coach might tell you about a coach that had a positive influence on them. There are all these positive

Starting point is 01:04:59 influences in our lives, but the ones that really reach us are often the ones that are actually giving us a preview of what we could do and who we could be to be a positive influence on others. So ask people to tell me stories. Who was it? How did they help you? Why did it matter? Have you thanked them for it if it's possible to actually like engage in a little gratitude exercise and write them a letter or you know if they're no longer with us do it as an creative exercise. Imagine that you could thank them for for what they, how they helped you. And to get in contact with what that feels like because I often think that will point people in the direction of making a positive difference. And then I also always tell people don't wait.

Starting point is 01:05:41 for permission. Go out and create the thing you think is useful. Start it. Do it. You know, don't do something that you're severely under trained to do. Don't be like, hey, you know, I've never had any training in psychology, but I'm going to pretend that I'm a therapist. Like, okay, I'm not talking about that. But like, what is the version of the thing that you can legitimately do now to create the space to develop in this direction and start doing things? Because if you want to help people, if you want to make a difference in the world, you need feedback. The way you learn what is useful is by trying and then getting that feedback. What do people thank you for?

Starting point is 01:06:23 Where do you see the difference being made and to trust evidence in that way? Follow your calling, but also like pay attention to evidence. Thank you so much, Kelly. The book, latest book at least, and you should get all of them, But the latest one's called The Joy of Movement, How Exercise Helps Us Find Happiness, Hope, Connection, and Courage. Highly recommended, and very appreciative of your team for sending it to me early, Kelly, so I could help prepare for this conversation. And I certainly want to continue our dialogue as we both progress.

Starting point is 01:06:58 Where would you send my listeners to learn more about you online? To my website, so Kellymagnaecal.com. And I'm on all the major social media platforms under my name, Kelly, McGonagall. Awesome. Okay. Thank you so much. I have pages of notes here, as you can see.

Starting point is 01:07:14 I'm very appreciative, and I'm excited to have more conversations with you because there's so much more to get to. We just scratch the service, but I'm very appreciative of the dialogue. It was really great. Thanks for having me. All right, thanks. I absolutely love that conversation with Kelly. I am really looking forward to more of those types of talks with her and the future

Starting point is 01:07:38 a few of the parts that really stuck out to me. Excellence is having a strong sense of direction. So develop some sort of self-awareness around your direction and understanding when to say yes and when to say no. Then willpower can be developed and understanding environmental design and how important that is to your future success. If you have trouble eating sweets, get them out of the house.

Starting point is 01:08:07 Right? And then stress is proof that you care. And that's a good thing. And having a better understanding of how to handle and manage and the benefits of stress, I thought the mindset that Kelly shared was extremely valuable. And then movement, that persistence high. Put your body in motion and just keep going. Prove to yourself that you can do hard things. It will help you in more ways than you even realize. once again I absolutely loved this conversation I hope you did as well if so I would love it if you would spread the message tell a friend perhaps one that has never listened to the learning leader show before and explain to them how this could make their life better you doing that continues to give me the opportunity to do I love on a daily basis and for that I will forever be grateful thank you so much talk with you next week can't wait after five plus years, more than 350 interviews and far more vulnerability than I'm normally comfortable with, my book, Welcome to Management is now available for pre-order, including the foreword written by legendary four-star general Stanley McChrystal. It's surreal just saying that. We've put together a number of really cool pre-order bonuses for you to take advantage of. Go to learning leader.com. Opt-in pre-order my book, Welcome to Management.

Starting point is 01:09:49 I am on a mission to rid the world of bad bosses. And each one of you can help me do that by buying my book and spreading the message. Welcome to Management. How to go from top performer to excellent. leader. Go to learning leader.com for more details.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 343: Kelly McGonigal - The Power Of Discipline, Movement, & Stress

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