The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 354: WELCOME TO MANAGEMENT Book Launch Party With Doug Meyer

Episode Date: March 2, 2020

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk Text LEARNERS to 44222 For full show notes, go to www.LearningLeader.com Episode #354: WELCOME TO MANAGEMENT Book Launch Party With Doug Meyer This is the recording from the conversation I had with Co-Founder/President of Brixey & Meyer, Doug Meyer, in front of many of our friends, clients, and colleagues at the Dayton office of Brixey & Meyer. In WELCOME TO MANAGEMENT, I provide practical, actionable advice to help new managers build and lead committed teams in the face of daunting, unanticipated challenges. He presents a three-part framework outlining best practices distilled from interviews with more than 350 of the most forward-thinking leaders in the world, as well as his own professional experience transitioning from individual producer to new leader. Through compelling stories and data-backed case studies, the book helps high performers make the leap from individual contributor to manager with greater ease, grace, courage, and effectiveness. Notes: The book writing process: How long did it take to write? What was the proposal writing process like? What led you to sell the book rights to McGraw-Hill? Curiosity? Always natural or a learned skill? -- For me, this was something I learned to do... As I learned more, I realized there was so much more to learn. The Cycle of Learning -- Operating Framework Consume/Learn - The intake engine (read, listen to podcasts, speak with mentors) Test - Experiment with what's been learned (You can't just be a learner, you have to be a doer) - "We learn who we are in practice, not in theory." Reflect - Analyze results, make adjustments Teach - Reinforce learning through sharing with others Mentors vs. coaches. Interesting comparison and need throughout life. We discussed the difference and importance of each... "Build the skills to do the job, not to get the job." -- The act of putting your high potential employees in position to actually do the job, not just prepare for an interview. Developing self-awareness -- It's important to regularly hold a mirror up to ourselves and surround self with people who will be brutally honest and caring of you and your development. WELCOME TO MANAGEMENT  will teach you Where the real work of leadership begins The greatest medicine for fear and how to put it into practice Why you need an "Operating Framework" and how to create one The 3 key elements to creating a performance culture The opportunity that many managers miss after they achieve success The seven keys to earning respect The quickest way to build trust is through vulnerability Managing a team you inherit -- The instant you sign for the job, those are YOUR players.  Don't use terms like 'they' or 'them.'  It is US and WE. The difference between leadership, management, coaching Leadership: The act of leading is about providing purpose, direction, aligning expectations, and inspiring the team. Management: Figuring out how to work within the current constraints of the system you are in... It is the administration and stewardship of resources. Coaching: The two types of coaching: Coaching for performance - The 'right now' actions... Behaviors. Coaching for development - Longer term Dustyn Kim is a fantastic model for humility, vulnerability, and intelligence -- That's what she's the type of leader that I committed to doing everything I could to help her be successful. Nobody is 'self-made.'  We are are built from communities of people who care about us, help us, and show love and support.

Welcome to the Learning Leader Show presented by Brexian Meyer. I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text learners to 44222 in order to join tens of thousands of learning leaders from all over the world. Received Mindful Monday updates what I'm reading, writing, watching, thinking about text learners to 44222. Now on tonight's featured leader, this is a special bonus episode. Doug Meyer, co-founder, and president of Brixie and Meyer and my friend posted me in our Dayton, Ohio office to celebrate the launching of my book, Welcome to Management. This conversation was recorded in front of many of our friends, clients, and colleagues.

A few of the topics we discussed. The process to put together my proposal, get it sold, and write 70,000 words. Then why I picked Casey Ebro and McGraw, Ann McGraw, Hill to publish it. Next, my cycle of learning framework and how it could benefit both the reader and you as the listener. Then the importance of humility coupled with mental toughness. And finally, really emotional part of the conversation, why the acknowledgement section

of my book is so important to me. I want to give a huge thank you to my friend Doug Meyer for being a very. incredibly prepared and hosting a book launch party that I will remember forever. Ladies and gentlemen, it's the launch party of Welcome to Management. So Ryan, you just had- Oh, thank you, Leah. All right, let's go. You just had a pretty cool guest on with Simon Sinek. Yes. He starts with why. So let's start there. Why did you write this book?

So it started five years ago, really, but I thought about the toughest challenge in my professional life, which was when I made that leap from individual contributor to then managing my own team. And I think there are a few people in this room who unfortunately had to deal with a new bad manager because I didn't really know what I was doing. You were saying that or they would say that. I have a feeling that's your opinion. There's Parker, Jeff Estel's here. We got a number of them.

I guess they're not in their heads. I guess you were about me. Estelle's like, yeah. They're both in my leadership circle today. And so they would say, wow, at least I think he's improved a little bit. from those early days. But anyway, I think that's a critical time in your career. And yet most companies, and I did a lot of research leading up to the book, do an

overwhelming job of preparing people to be ready for that big leap in your career. It's even bigger than, I think, the next leap, which is going from individual contributor to managers to then leading leaders, which I think is a little bit actually easier of a jump. So it's specifically focused on that moment. And so the reason it's called Welcome to Management is for a couple of reasons. One, I think management is a really bad word. People don't seem to like the word management, and I want to change that. I think it could be a great word, and I want people to use their power for good.

And two, I sent early copies of the book to members of, to listeners of the show as well as guest of the podcast. And Liz Weissman was one of them who wrote a couple great books called Rookie Smart's, Multipliers. And Liz saw that the phrase, welcome to management, was at the bottom of one of the first sections. and she says, that is your title. That's the title of this book, because that's what it's all about. And so that's why I did it. So what was the process like? I mean, are you sitting there, like, on a yoga mat with candles, writing?

I mean, how do you write a book? So it's been about a five-year process. The podcast has been in existence for about that much time. But it got really serious, I would say, I hired someone to help me write a proposal. So I'm sorry, I'm going to stop you. Did you start writing five years ago? Yes. I was writing a lot of notes.

and thoughts, but they weren't structured. But with the idea that you wanted to do a book? Not necessarily, but I thought it would be worth my time to document my thoughts and what I was learning. So I then hired about two and a half years ago, hired someone to help me write a proposal. So we wrote a proposal because I had the intention of wanting to actually sell it to a traditional publishing house. So we wrote the proposal. I was able to get a really good literary agent named Jim Levine, who's one of the best in the

business that I got referred to by members, listeners, and people who have been. been on my podcast and we sold a book to McGrawl Hill then last. Well, that's a pretty big deal. How did they, how did you get them to buy? Yeah, yeah. The proposal was, I think it was well done. Although it, as I later learned, as my friend Lance is in here, there was still, there he is, there were still many mistakes, which is a good, I'll talk about Lance in a second, but we got it sold after, I think they liked the platform that was being built. So they, my agent called it a platform book. I take that as a, I don't take that as a compliment. What he means by a platform is you're building such a platform that you'll sell it regardless of the words that are within the

book. And I said, I understand you saying that, but I disagree. I want the words in it to make a difference in people's lives, specifically at this critical moment in their life. So we got it sold, though. I had a number of offers and Casey Ebro for McGrawlhill, the senior executive editor for McGrawl Hill, is my partner in this and help me edit the book. And once I got it sold, though, then I realized, oh, a proposal is just the marketing plan, two sample chapters, a table of contents, and that's it. And that's what you sell. Like, okay, we think you're good enough to write a full book. But then you have the hard part of actually having to write a book.

And I remember I sat down with my friend Lance, who we worked together at Lexis Nexus for five years, I guess. And Lance and I would have these sessions where we'd sit in one of each other's offices for hours at times, just throwing ideas back. and forth. Getting the idea generation we call it. He'd always be at the board. He'd always be drawing. He'd be speaking in analogies. And the reason, and so I actually ended up hiring Lance and paying him a significant portion of my book advance to help me write the book because I knew I needed someone to get the ideas out and to challenge me. And so Lance is a 10 year, he was a prosecutor for over 10 years, put some of the worst criminals in the world away in jail. And what he said is, I will help you be more persuasive.

That's what you want. And I think that's hopefully what the book ended up being with his help of getting it out. So we'd sit in rooms here. We'd have lunch, Jimmy Johns, right, for two or three hours. And he would prompt me, he would challenge me, and then I would write and I would type, and then I would go back and do it all by myself. And then I would send it to him and say, what do you think? And we'd make tweaks.

And then, I don't know, six months later, the book was done. And here we are. Six months after you started truly writing the book. You finished it in six months. Right. And so then you send it to the publisher, right? And they provide a few edits. How does that come back?

So Casey, the one, she's old school. She printed it out and she uses pencil to edit the book. Every single page was marked to death. How'd you feel? So I think I actually got a number of friends and it's cool to hear them that I've had on my show. They said, just beware for that day. Beware for that day because if you have a good editor, that's what it will look like. So I was really grateful, honestly.

I was grateful. So you didn't feel demoralized. Well, no, I mean, you know, I still think if you're going to measure how good of a writer am from a 1 to 10, I'm still like a 3. But I hopefully have a lot of books in me and a lot of work in me. So, but going from a 0 to a 3, I feel really good about. And so I, Casey helped me get from like a 1.5 to a 3. So I think that's pretty good.

Is that Casey's rating for you or is your self-assessment? That's my assessment. I mean, I, you know, we share the quality that I think part of what drives us is that we, you know, have a low level of how good we think we are. And I think that's all that keeps us kind of doing this. So obviously when anybody thinks of writing a book, that sounds really hard. Yeah. Was there any parts that were easier than you thought that it would be? No, no.

There were no easy parts we look. There was that, I mean, I just talked to Jay Okunzo about this. We did a show about it. And that was the one area where he's like, what was easier for you? most people and I would just say I'm not good enough yet like I would in everything I've always kind of had to really consistently do it every single day to eventually be good enough to be a quarterback or to be a manager of a team and that's just some people are born more talented I think like Dave Shelby to be a tall offensive lineman and one of the best right that's not me right

so I I need to kind of consistently show up and do it every day but no there was there was no part I'm thinking like, oh, that was easy. I mean, one of the things that was helpful was I had hundreds of interviews worth of firsthand research that I did on my podcast. So not every, most people don't have that. They're like digging in and doing their own research, whereas I was continuing to do the research and had a lot of it leading up to that point where I started writing. Gotcha.

So I had the privilege of reading this before it got released and the first chapter talks about lead yourself on the inside. And you laid out a cycle. of learning framework that talked about lead, test, reflect, and teach. Share that with this. So as I'm having these conversations on my show, I'm hearing everyone has what they call like a framework or a standard mode of operation. I think of Jeff because he's an Army Ranger and he has this mode of operation.

He gave a speech at one of our workshops about this and I thought, like, I don't think I've done a good job of outlining what is my operating framework. Like how do I behave? How do I make decisions? how do I decide what to do because all these great leaders have these and I don't. So I tried to create one based on what I learned

from other people, which was, so there's four parts to a good day for me, right? The first part is I have to have an intake engine. I got to be a consumer of knowledge of information having one-on-one conversations, reading books, listening to podcasts, right? That has to be a part of every day, then two. I'm going to stop you there.

Was that always natural for you? No, no. Was that always the case for you? No, I think growing up, you know, So my brothers are here. I think we were, I say we, because we're in it together, but I would say we just kind of played sports. You know, I don't know if we really cared that much about really doing anything else.

We just, we wanted to play sports. And that's all we did. I read it a little bit, not a lot. I think that got developed as immature to understand that I had to develop some curiosity to I'm not a naturally born curious person. Was there somebody influential in that process to make you more curious? I would say when I got into the business world, I just found the power of books. And as you read a really good book, like how powerful is it when you read a good book?

Like it can change your life. And what it does is that it makes you want to read another book and another book and another book. So as you first get into it, like somebody says, hey, you should read this and maybe you listen. But then that leads to the next and the next and next. And that hasn't really stopped. So it's kind of been there. So that's the first part. Because the intake engine, the second part of a good day is you can't just be a learner,

you gotta be a doer. So you can't just sit in the corner and read all day. You have to actually take action on what you're learning. You have to experiment, test it out, see what works. So that's the second part is I actually have to put it into play. The third part is I have to take a conscious, make the conscious choice to step back, reflect, analyze on what I've learned, what I've tested. And then fourth, and I think really important that I've really leaned into since

obviously joining the firm and doing this, is you gotta teach. The best method of learning I've ever found is to stand up on stage and share it with people and try to add value to their life. Right, and so if you force yourself to be in a position to be a teacher on a regular basis, this is why I pushed you, I remember,

when we had our internal personal excellence, I said, Doug, you need to be one of the teachers. And I think you'll learn as much or more than anybody because you'll have to prepare, like, because I know you, you're not gonna embarrass yourself. So you're gonna prepare like, You're going to prepare like crazy to get ready. Yeah, I was cursing your name.

Yes, for those. But who's the highest rated teacher in the firm? The owner of the firm, Doug Meyer, right? And he's not going to say that, but the highest rated teacher is Doug. So that, though, that process of teaching is where so much learning takes place. In this chapter, you also, I found it very interesting, talked about mentors versus coaches. Yeah. What's the difference?

So I think hopefully everyone in here is, fortunate to have those those handful of mentors, those people you can go to that you develop a real relationship with that you can go to with really anything life related. Like I see Charlie Mack, my hand's in here, Brooke Cups is in here, right, you're one of these guys for me, like the people you can go to just about life, just to bounce ideas off of, right? Lance has played this role for me as a friend and a peer. But then you also have coaches. So a coach is about a specific task or a process in my opinion so I think of the best football coaches I had Bob Greg and Ron Allery about what they did was we were focused on a specific

tasks I wouldn't call them mentors in my life they were just great coaches and they lifted me to levels that I didn't think I was I was capable of and so that's what a coach does where as a mentor is someone that we can I can I can just go to as a friend and bounce ideas off on a regular basis and it might not be very specific about a certain task with just some ideas and I'm really a friend someone to go to. Gotcha. So the next chapter, the first one you talk a lot about leading yourself on the inside, and then the next one is leading yourself on the outside. So I want to start with, you talk about where you reference deep work a lot, Caldneyport, one of my favorite books, but you talk about morning

routines. Yeah. What's your morning routine? So I mean, we all, I think, to me it's critical quote to start the day well. I think it's important that we have a specific routine and ritual. Miranda will tell you like I'm a very ritualized routine regiment and type of a person. And we also are raising, I don't know if they're in there, five, five girls who run around and hectic and chaotic at times. So sometimes the only time to myself is in the morning, the early morning. So I have to wake up really early to have that time to myself. What's really early? About quarter to five. Yeah, it's pretty early. To wake up, to write, to think. to stretch, to hydrate, and then like you,

like I have the mental issues where if I don't work out, I'm just not a. So you write and stretch and all that and then go work out. Right. And then if I don't, then I'm just not a fun person, probably to be around. So I do that, and then we come back and we have our family time, then it's time to get to work.

So I just think for me, that's just, and then it becomes a routine and that's now, what time to go to bed? Like 10? Oh. Pretty good. Yeah. This chapter you also talk about, I'm going to use a quote here.

You said, mental toughness is like a muscle that is built. Seek discomfort to stretch beyond your norms. Talk to us a little bit about that. Well, I'm a big believer in pushing yourself physically to build those mental calluses, to build up. So this is actually one of the parts of the book that my editor, Casey, pushed back on me a little bit to say, are you sure you want to put this in here? And I said, you told me this is my book. So this is what I believe. And you don't have to agree with every part.

I don't expect everyone to agree with every part, but this is very important to me. Pushing myself physically has made me stronger mentally. And I have a lot of examples in this room that have done the same thing. And so, and I've done it with some of the guys in this room. And so I'm a big believer in regularly pushing yourself physically because it's made me stronger mentally and everything else I've done. Right? the early morning workouts. Nothing that I do is as hard as what I had to do at Centerville High School,

getting ready to play our seasons. Nothing. Nothing mentally or physically. So I think it'd be crazy for me not to continue to try to put myself in positions to physically stretch, which then will mentally stretch me as well. And I think doing that has made me a better learner. It's made me a better leader. It's maybe hopefully a better friend, husband, and dad.

That's my hope. Yeah, I mean, that's just something. So give us some examples of things you've done recently that have been outside your comfort zone. I mean, improv class, a triathlon. What was the improv class like? You know, for me, like you're extroverted, I'm not. So the thought of going up with Justin Howard from Blackbox,

and Justin, I don't think he's here, but was, I know Brooke does this with his leadership class at Centerville High School, where he forces people to get up and create high fives and do improv type. I just think it's really healthy to regularly stretch your zone of competency and comfort. And so if you're seeking out opportunities to do that, good things will happen. And so I think it's a worthy cause for all of us to say, like, what's something that is not me, is uncomfortable, will make me stretch. and then attack those. Carly Fienria told me on my show,

you should run towards the fire. If you're trying to build a great career, run towards the things that everybody else are running away from. And I think that's good advice in a lot of areas of life where you're running towards the hard things. Is that calculated for you?

I mean, do you challenge yourself to say, I've not been outside my comfort zone recently. I need to stretch myself. I think, you know, having people in your life to do, like, I know Parker is a great example. Parker Mays is always signing up for these crazy races. And so when he's doing that, and he also tries to get other people to do it too. And I've done it with him before.

But I think having people like that in your life is really healthy because then it makes you, it's top of mind like, wait, Parker's doing this. What am I doing? I need to, I need to kind of get with them, right? I can. I try. But I think, I think, though, like, that's part of, that's an important part of your life, too, is surrounding yourself with people who, who have that men.

mentality too. Awesome. Yeah. Culture was the next chapter and Greg Meredith. I thought I think he had to leave. He had to leave, but you guys talked about elements of respects and how to earn respect. Yeah. How do you earn respect? Well, I think I go back to, and AJ's in here too, so we, this is something that was really big. One of the things we try to do as younger players in sports that has carried over is show up, keep your mouth shut, and just work insanely hard. And that's easier said. than done. But I remember I think he went early and he's never he won't share the story, but to Ohio State as a high school senior and goes and sets like the diff record in the summer workout. And you know, we didn't find out. We had to hear from other people. And I think just having

the mentality of showing up every day, always doing the work, every day, consistently being reliable and being there for your teammates is not sexy. It's not going to like make a headline. But those are that those are I think the way that you earn respect and as my dad has told us A part of the view of leadership is that your presence is required Simply showing up people ask him about like how do how do you be a good dad? What do you how do you raise kids to get scholarships or play in the NFL And he'll he'll just tell you well I think like 85% of it was just showing up just putting the coins in the batting cage Rebounding free throws going in the backyard catching passes. It sounds simple, right? He'd work 12-hour days leading a thousand-person sales

force, but we would never know it. He'd come home, we would never know he was tired, he had to fire somebody that day, or bad things are happening. You got to show up. And I think not only just show up, but then consistently show up every single day is, I think, a big way that I tried to earn respect. I try to do that to this day. And you talked about vulnerabilities. people a lot of times don't like to share those, especially people in new management positions or in leadership positions. It naturally makes us feel weak if we talk about our vulnerabilities. Why are we wrong thinking that way?

I think it builds trust and trust is the foundation of relationships. So I think of a great boss that Lance and I worked for together at Lexus Nex's name Dustin Kim, and Dustin is one of the smartest people that we probably both know, right, Ivy League educated. She's a working mom and would come into our business. team meetings and talk about both personal challenges she was dealing with and professional challenges with her boss and just openly say these things and it brought us in and like I still love her to this day. I trust her. We were just emailing. She's very, you know, proud and I'm grateful for that support from her of somebody who just always didn't feel like I have to have it all together.

Yet she was a smartest person in basically every room she walked in it but wasn't afraid to say, oh guys you're not going to believe what my kids did or you're not going to believe what the person above me just said to me right and what I'm trying to deal with and it just I think we developed trust very quickly and we all like wanted to battle for her and that's because she was so open and honest with us very cool you talked about your team and managing your team and Jim Collins not a bad guest that you've had yeah he's great start you know if it begins with who then what yeah but not everybody in this room has that privilege and benefit to pick their who. Some people, especially if you're promoted to a manager role, you're inheriting a team. Okay? So what's your recommendations

to them that I just entered a management role? I don't get a start with who because I've got this team I've inherited. What are some recommendations you would give to them? First of all, the instant you sign the contract, they are your team. Don't ever use, well, they don't do this, and I said this and they, we've heard bad, I've been one of those, we've heard bad managers. I've sat in meeting or so with them where I'd say, well, boss, I don't get it. I'm saying it, but they don't do it. It's not they. It's you. It's your team. The instant you decide to take that job. There's a great story about Urban Meyer and Tom Herman. Tom Herman left Ohio State to go to Texas. He's still their coach. And Herman was saying like, you got to wait until we get our guys in here,

his recruits, his coaching staff, whatever. Wait until we get our guys. And Urban said, no, the second you sign the deal, they're your guys. They're your responsibility. as a leader. If you choose to lead, there are your responsibility. You have to sign up for that. And I think that's the mentality that if you, and that's how most of us when we get promoted, I mean, I think I had three or four opens when I got promoted, but the rest of the team was there. They are your guys. They're your team. So understand that. You're signing up for that and take that mentality that, no, this is what I have to work with. I'm going to do everything I can to help support and develop these people that are now my team that I'm in charge of. And that number,

in a sales organization like I was, it said Team Hawk at the top, right? I was the sum of those people. So you better believe, like, we had to get them ready to roll. And I tried my best with some mistakes along the way to understand that and do that. And what do you do if the team's not what you would choose to have? I mean, sometimes there's a part in the book about firing, you know, and I hate that. It's the absolute worst part about leadership is when you have to let somebody go. and I've made way more mistakes when it comes to firing than pretty much anything I've done.

What are some of those mistakes? So, for example, I like to get really close with my team. We did a get to know you exercise. Did it with partners. It did with team, meaning there's a whole host of questions. I get to know them, their families, everything about them. If they did something well, I wanted to be able to love on the people that love them. So send a gift to their kids or their spouse or something like that.

But the other side of that, and I remember talking to AJ about Ted Thompson, who was a general manager of the Packers, He said, Ted never wanted to get too close to his guys because he had to cut him all the time. Right. So there's a balance there. I choose to want to get close. Well, you know, you have someone who's a single mom and they are the sole breadwinner for their family and their kids. And they're not cutting it. And you put them on a performance plan and they still don't achieve the plan.

And you just say, well, let me hang on. Let me hang on. Let me keep doing it. until they come to you and it comes time to that day and you have to let them go eventually, even though you waited way too long and they say, well, Ryan, I didn't think you lived up to your word. I didn't think you would do it

because you just let me go and didn't do it. I didn't hold her accountable. And that was a, I remember I had the superstars of my team came to me afterwards and said, I'm not going to lie, man, like we lost a little respect for you because you couldn't make a tough call. Yeah. If you want to be a manager,

if you want to be a leader, you've got to make tough calls. And if somebody's dragging us down and you've done everything you could to try to help them get better and it is not happening, it's time to go. And that was a really bad day. But a learning moment.

If you have to fire somebody, what's your recommendation? What do you do? How's the process? Well, I think there's a, one, it should never, ever be a surprise, ever be a surprise unless they cheated and they think you don't know about it. But those things, like my dad, I remember, like he hated firing people, but he always said,

cheats or somebody steals, they are done. Immediately, no exceptions ever. Right? We talked about this with expense report. I'm like, Doug, you can check my expense reports, but you don't have to. But you can't if you want. I promise there won't be one penny that will be that will be expense that won't. I'll do the other way. My point is, though, if it's someone that's like a performance thing, sure, there should be a regular plan put in place with regular communication and documentation leading up to that moment to say we're working on this together you're just as much a part of creating this plan as I am we're working we're working and if eventually they don't achieve it by the times that you've set then you know it's then they know and you know and it's just unfortunately it's time to go and I've

had those two and again it's the worst it's the worst part about you know you've you've had to do it here and it's it's I know I you talk to me about it and I know you like you it crushes you every time. Every time, even if it was somebody who did something wrong. And I think, I just hate that part. But it is part of the deal. If you raise your hand to say, I want to lead, I want to manage a team as part of the deal, so you have to be ready for it. So a manager gets to select their who. All right. So now we talked about what happens. What's your recommendations when they inherit? Now you get to select. What are you looking for? The biggest mistake I made was not documenting what I looked for. I didn't know. I remember

I had other managers, they would forward me the email that was forwarded to them that would just said 25, like, interview questions. So just read these and interview somebody, and this is how you interview. I was like, what's your favorite color? Like, what random questions, you know, like biggest weakness, all this stuff, the random questions that are on there. But you don't have any understanding of why am I asking these questions? What am I looking for? What are we trying to identify? You just start asking the questions and then you get done. You're like, what do you think? Well, seems pretty good. I guess we'll go with it. Right. But that's how a lot of us hire. That's how I hired for years.

Fortunately, I got lucky with some early hires who just happened to be really good, even though I didn't do a good job. So I think first you have to get very clear on what do I want? What do I value? What is it in somebody that I'm looking for? Like being able to do the job are just the table stakes of it. Then it's what are the qualities in a team member? What do we look for in somebody?

And it's worth it to document those and to really think about it with your leadership team to say, what do we value in a person? And then the next step is, what do we ask or how do we figure out if this person possesses what we want and what we need? So when you say what you value, are you talking about personality traits and character versus competency? Well, competencies are the table stakes. If they can't do the job, then they're not even in the room. That is just to get in the room. You've got to be able to do it.

And you certainly have to make sure that you understand that. But then it's about what type of person do we want walking around the halls at this firm? Right. That's a huge deal. If you mess up a few times, you know, people start looking around. Like, maybe I should go work somewhere else. The studs, like the high performers that you really want. Right.

So that's why it's critical that the messups are minimized. We all mess up. We all make mistakes, but it's critical that those are minimized. And so there's a process, I think, to put in place to understand this is what we value and this is how we try to identify if they've got those qualities. What are some of the things you value? I love someone who, I think Estel was like this. this Jeff. So someone who has the guts, does Jameson harky in here? He's like this too.

Jameson, he would, what? Dave's definitely like, Dave's definitely like this. So I hired Dave, I've hired Dave and Parker and Jeff. But so the people who have the guts and the courage and the curiosity to stop you and ask you questions throughout the course of the interview, that shows that they are intellectually curious. It shows that they are, they have options. They're in demand as well. Like Dave Shelby was in demand when I when I was interviewing him. He was questioning me just as much as I questioned him throughout the course of it. And when I did a kind of a success autopsy on what success looks like, one of the commonalities was the were people and I remember I hired mainly for sales roles. So it is different. But one of the commonalities

was that those people were not afraid to question me and they were very curious. Because if you're curious in a sales environment, you're probably going to ask good questions. And the best sales professionals I've ever found are the ones who ask the best questions. The discovery phase of the sales process, I think, is most important, right? This is something you're very good at. We've been on sales calls together at lunch. And the whole time we're talking, all you're doing is asking questions and they're talking. And all this information is being dumped in your brain.

And then 50 minutes later, it's like, but-da-da, like you've got everything that you then say, okay, here's what I heard. Here's what you've told me. And so I think that is a skill. that to me is above all is that are they intellectually curious to like they have a yearning to learn to know to have a better understanding and one of the ways to see if that happens is if they if they and they have the courage to speak up and start questioning you not at the end when everybody does it but in the middle or in a part where it's not normal I love it when that happens so I'm going to

go back because you're bringing up curiosity a lot you're one of the most curious people I've ever met because I remember walking into your office one day after I read a book and I said man this was a great book and Ryan looks at me and goes why and I was like oh my god I didn't I was getting tested here so now every time before I say a comment I know I have to explain myself nobody can make a book recommendation and not tell me why like if you just say it's a great book you better be ready to tell me why yeah and you and my son does that to me now too so thank you because you had a good talk yeah you did have a good talk so curiosity you know is that something people people are just born with or is that,

were you always curious? No, I don't think so. I don't think it is. I think, I mean, there are certain things we are born with, I guess. For me, I wouldn't say so. I mean, I think it's, Lance and I talked a lot about this when we were writing a book.

I think it was born out of, started with a love of books and then having a conversation with a fascinating person and that would lead to the next one, the next one. And then as you realize, the more you learn, you realize there's so much more out there to learn. So like five, six, years ago, I thought I was far smarter than I do today, but I'm obviously smarter today than I was six years ago. So that just tells you, I think, if you get into that process of constantly trying

to learn, grow, improve, and just having that mindset, that you just become better at everything that you're working on. And I think that's like the definition of excellence for me is, is it's just, it's the gradual, gradual result of always trying to be better. Right. And that's a, That's a Pat Riley quote, but that really speaks to me as like excellence, just gradually getting better. Gradually like this. And then it starts compounding. And before you know, you're like, wow, I feel like I've grown. One, you're bringing up another point that really resonated with me is good, better, best.

Yeah. What do you want to be? Well, I think, I mean, most people, and we've all heard like the CEO get up on stage and stand and say, we're going to be the best. Right. We're going to be number one in the market by X date. And I get it, but it's just like LeBron saying, I want to be the best player ever.

One, there's no way to really know that. Like, it's arbitrary. Sure. But my, as I've learned, my mindset is it doesn't really matter. Like John Maxwell, his book comes out today, you know, and I talked to him yesterday we recorded. You know, like it would be a mistake for me to compare how my book does today versus John Maxwell's book, right?

He's sold 40 million books over the last 40 years. So that's a stupid, like, do I want to be best, the best in comparison to Maxwell? No. And he even told this to me too yesterday. We're both just trying to get better every single day. So my mindset is that it just always, and you know I told you this, the day that we decided to work together. Sure.

Doug, today is the worst I will ever be, the worst. Tomorrow I'm going to be a little bit better. and the next day I'm going to be a little bit better, and the next day I'm going to be a little bit better. And my promise to you is that I will put in that work so that as you know me today, it's the worst I'm going to be. And if you see otherwise, you have to let me know. I will.

Remember, like, one of our first things, I was getting ready to give a talk, and I shared some notes, and I remember you're like, I don't know if that's that good. I don't know if it's that helpful. And I don't know if you remember that, but I remember that. And I went home and read it the whole thing,

you know, because I thought, like, This is really upsetting that he doesn't like, you know, it doesn't think it's good enough. So I think that's just the mindset of not trying to be the best because it's just, it's a losing proposition. It's a way to guarantee unhappiness in your life if you're always comparing yourself to be the best. It's just, are we getting better every single day?

I want to jump back into the interview real quick. Recommendation, what should we ask? You talked about, you know, people say, what's your biggest strengths, all those, the 25 questions what are some questions we should be asking in an interview one of the things I I learned from my dad that I I I guess I like to do is I want to hear them and feel like we're actually in the role so I won't I guess you could call that a mock interview where they're actually forced to do the job I want to hear them like be in the role remember Brent is Brent shirt yeah Brent's

still in here he was a rep on my team the number one rep in the whole company and one of the things we did to help him ready to do the job was to actually put him in the role of being a manager. So it served two purposes, one, to help train him to be ready to go. And two, if somebody asked for my advice, can Brent be a good manager? I can actually speak from real experience. So I think in the interview process, any way you can make it real, so whether you do a sales simulation or if it's a management role, you give them some time to prepare for a challenging

conversation. And not everyone's going to be perfect, especially if it's their first time. They won't know what they're doing. But just I want to know what their thought process is like. I want to know their, I always say like, let's hire the person with the highest ceiling. And I think that's a, you know, the Cleveland Browns are doing that. So how all these young, smart guys

that have really high ceilings now in their front office to try to turn things around. Is Charlie still in here? No, and he's a Browns fan. But I think that's something I look for is like, their thought process and the way they approach life and the way they approach people. And so that comes through kind of natural conversations.

And then me, as you know, we've talked about, the best questions are never the initial question. It's always the follow-up. So the first question almost doesn't matter. It just gets us started. It's then the next one and the next one and the next one and the next one. And if you listen, obviously, on the podcast, the first questions I ask are never the best questions. It's always the next one or the next one or forcing him to go deeper. Yeah.

But a lot of those probably aren't planned, right? It's just like you develop over repetition of, that's why you got to just like anything in life, you've got to get the reps. Spread the message is the fifth chapter. MBWA. What in the world is that and what should we be asking? Are there any Tom Peters fans here, Tom Peters? Yeah, so you guys know what MBWA is. So Tom wrote in search of excellence, big influence.

I'm amazed there's that few people know who Tom Peters is. Really? That's amazing. but I get it. Don't judge, Ryan. No, I'm just saying like, it's just, like, we know that you know that person that's had such an impact on your life.

It's called management by wandering around, and I think this is a tactic that I tried to employ when I had an inside sales team. You don't just wander, but I look for micro-coaching moments. Not micro-management, but micro-coaching moments. So if I'm wandering around and I hear Parker on the phone and he says something,

maybe when he hangs up, I'll ask him a question about it. and then we'll have a conversation. And maybe he'll ask me a question, and then we'll have a seven-minute conversation about that particular moment. And if you're stuck in your office, replying to email and on conference calls all the time,

which a lot of us can do, you don't ever get to have those seven-minute micro moments. That's really what coaching is all about, is having those little informal chats on a regular basis, and that's why I think it's a useful practice to MBWA, because, and that's why Tom, when he was studying the greatest companies in the world said, one of these weird things I noticed that happens at the companies that are performing at high levels

that's not happening at the companies is that these managers wander around and have micro moments, five, seven minute conversations with people. And it seems to be really impactful. Not just, I mean, the formal one-on-ones are important. You've got to do those, but also those informal ones can be more powerful. And I try to do that. Well, I've got the wandering around down. I guess I just got to start asking better questions.

In the talk about spreading the message, you also talked about the power stories and storytelling. Why is that important when you're trying to share a message? I mean, we're, think about how, like, how are you moved by something? You're moved by a story. You're not moved by the science behind the story. The science is important. You've got to have to have empirical evidence to prove that your story is right. But you're moved by the story, not the science.

So my whole method of when I'm speaking or writing is story, science, practical applications. So let's- Say that again. Story. So let's tell the story, right? Lance, we know we did this the whole time. Let's tell the story. Let's share the empirical evidence, the research behind the story to prove it true. And then how does this, why do I care? Right. How does this apply to me in my life if I'm in the crowd? So the practical application, so it's the whole formula, story, science, practical application. That's every speech, that's the book. That's hopefully everything I do is that it's, I'm thinking of. of all those aspects because the story,

I'm gonna give a talk for Dave tomorrow, you'll see the science part of this talk is not first. I will open instantly with a story from the first second. I can give you some stories about Dave. I know, maybe I'll tell a story about you. But that's, the starting is, there's no thank you and all this stuff, it's like instant story,

and then I'll do the thank you's in the science after, and then it'll be, this is how it applies to the presidents of the BMC companies that'll be in the audience tomorrow. So that's the process that it's very, It's formulaic, it's outlined, it's thoughtful and intentional with everything, and it's not like I'm just going to get up there and wander. I'm going to actually have intention behind it, and that's my process. I found also in Chapter 6 make the grade, you talked a lot about humility.

You used an example of somebody you worked with. You mentioned her name earlier. What's humility mean to you? How do you define humility? It's not thinking less of yourself. It's thinking of yourself less. And that's a really important thing to think about because people think. I think humility is you've got to lower yourself,

and I don't agree with that. I think it's just humility to me means being others focused. It means being thinking of how can I help other people be more successful instead of thinking about how can I make myself more successful. Maxwell said this yesterday, other people have said it. If you ask him, how have you been so successful? He said, I've had one focus, one,

helping other people be successful. That's it. Every time, if somebody comes with a problem, I'm trying to help them be successful. I haven't really had any other focus. and the whole business has been built because of that. And I think that is a form of humility. And it is important though not to think of it as I'm going to lower myself where I think less of myself.

It's I'm going to think more about other people and how can I help them. And my dad's mantra has always been my success can only follow the success of the people I'm leading or my success can only follow the success of my customers in a selling environment. I think that's the way to think of it is that if you work really hard on helping other people, Good things seem to work themselves out. I mean, good things seem to happen for you. You just mentioned your dad, and as you know, nothing's more important to me than my family.

Yep. And I thought it was really, really cool that your dad appeared more than anybody in this book. Sure. Talk to me about impact your dad's stuff. You could have appeared a lot more. There are some parts I just stole and used as my own thoughts and didn't give him credit, you know.

Did he call you out on that? that yet you know he he would have told me honestly he would have said never never to quote him at all so I did like kind of a mixture but no in all honesty though I mean I think it's important for for people to think about like the luck in their life yeah and the good fortune that they've had in the privilege and so I'm one of the most privileged people that I've ever met honestly because of the family I was born into with my brothers my parents I mean that's awesome man very very cool and that leads to a lot my last question and then I'll open

it up to the group here. I have never seen a book with such a long list of acknowledgments. Yeah. Which was super super cool. Why? Why so much detail on that? Um, so... So... You're good, man. I guess it just takes a lot of people, you know? Like... Well, look at this group, man. This is awesome. I mean, everything that was told when we walked in was, why didn't you guys build a bigger conference room? I was like, well, Ryan, wasn't on our team when we built this building. So I mean, when we were like, you did not want to do this book launch

because you're a humble guy. And Ryan and I had a call before this. And Ryan said, well, I want to talk about the firm. I want to talk a little bit about this. I said, dude, we just talked about humility, all right? All right. Now, this is about you. The spotlight's on you.

And I thought it was really cool to see your girls here today and your brothers, obviously. Thank you for giving me some time. You're pro. You need me to keep on? You really handle what. You should probably do life shows. No, no, no. I think it's important to mention names, you know? Like, the reason I, I didn't just mention Doug Meyer. I mentioned Kirsten and Jocelyn and Jacob because I admire how, like, what you've built family-wise as much as

anything. So there's, and I still left people out, which like I'm, I was like, oh, I forgot, you know, like I still did that. It bothers me. And there's, I think about 215 names in the acknowledge that section. Right. And but because like all those people played a role and some and, you know, I just think you should name people. Like you should give them credit when they've helped you and tell them why and thank them. And like I, you know, I actually regret one part of the book where I said that whenever I call

someone self-made. Yeah. I just never met anyone who's actually self-made. Like self-made doesn't exist. There's no self-made billionaires. There's no self-made anything. We're all community made. We're all the sum of like all the people around us,

were the average, we're the weight of those people. So I mean, I just tried my best to name the people who've helped me. And still fell short, I know, I'm certain of it because I was just reading this morning, but I think that's an important section. And it was worth it for me to let people know the impact they've had in my life. Very cool. All right, let's open it up. Who wants to ask Ryan?

very hard difficult question. Oh Brandy. I'll start. Sure. So when you were talking about these micro coaching moments yeah can you give an example of how because I know those kind of moments are really helpful but how can you help the individual that your micro coaching not see it as in a front or micro management moment? Yeah. Is there a way that you can help open their mind to the fact that you are just looking to coach and have a learning? I mean, I think that's that balance. I tried to develop real relationships with people. Like the question is kind of like that edge between micromanagement, which is a bad word and micro-coaching.

And I don't know, I think if you just develop a real honest relationship with each person at their level and it's about them that they could hopefully see that that's your desire is to help them and their purpose is to help them. and if you're kind of your normal, I guess, mode of operation is like that's what you're trying to do, then hopefully they'll understand that. But to me it was all about like developing a real relationship with each person, which is why when things go bad, it's so it's a lot harder. It's just a lot and that's just part of the deal. I'd rather that though than never like getting close with the people that I'm leading and helping. And I think that's at least to me a more fulfilling way to lead so that when they see it,

they know like hey we're here I mean it might be worth asking one of the guys Parker is one of those guys who got to feel feel that we had these micro moments all the time I mean what was it like for you did it feel like micromanagement or what did it I mean I'm put them on the spot well right right because we're there's conversations right right it's perfect this perfect there you go well Parker's definitely got something out of this meeting you know I love it Another question. Hey, Ryan.

Yes. Thanks, congrats. Thank you, man. Big thanks to you as well, Dogg and Dave for putting this together, we appreciate it. Ryan, for this book, I mean, there's a lot of great ideas in there, but how do you work with a manager that you know you want to incorporate some of these ideas?

That's a soft line that you're walking on, but you're like, hey, here's a ploy. I think you could use it. You want your boss to incorporate some of these ideas? Yeah, I love it. Good, right? How do you have that? conversation with how do you direct me?

Yeah, I think part of the way, he gave me this book. Yeah. I think part of it though is like a similar question is that my organization doesn't really stand for the stuff that I do or believe in what I do. So how can I do it? And so one of the thoughts is I just choose to build it from within. So like you lead through your actions and hopefully your boss or others around you are starting to say, what is Jason doing here?

They start asking you questions because you've led with your actions. That's why the beginning of the book is all about leading yourself. It's all about taking care of yourself first because you cannot lead anybody else until you lead yourself. And I think that part of it so that you are just actions and behaviors and your results, that's part of the, especially in your profession, then people start saying, wait, I want to talk to you. Like, what do you believe? What do you think? What are you doing so that they come to you?

because you're right, it will, it's probably not going to work if you're like, you're not a good boss. You need to read this book. The chance of working are zero. But if they see, I think one of things of, and this happens a little bit for me at Lexis next is where Sean Fitzpatrick, who hired both of us, he said, I see what you're doing with this small team. If I promoted you to this big role, could you do it here? So it was like building the culture and the excellence from within. and that got kind of broadcasted, and then other people say,

well, we want to hire you for a bigger role. So it's not exactly because you're talking about your boss, but to me it's similar in that regard of building it from within and then see if it could spread out as opposed to top down because I wasn't CEO, not even close. You're not CEO, or your boss isn't either.

It's like building it from in and see if it gets spread. It's hard. I mean. Kind of on that, I wish I had had this book 20 years ago when I was thrust into management and within a company that didn't have any good managers.

And then going from company to company and leading this way, but not having the words to express it, so it's giving me that voice to have it. And still not having a job or within a company that has that management experience or how I want to lead. So I've taken those notes to build the company that I want to build. Yeah. You know, so that I can have that company.

I love it. I love it. Congratulations. Great. I totally. Yes, Sheila. Please. I was curious.

Uh-oh, wait, this is about Ryan. Come up. I'm curious about why you brought a Ryan in the first place. And the book and how it affects my friend. Well, first off, look at all these things. First off, look at all these people that are here because of the book. All right. So it's pretty awesome.

So a quick story, I love telling this story, is Miranda asked if I would be open to having lunch with Ryan. So to back up, I'm sorry, she asked me a question. All right. Good job. So when Miranda started with a firm, she was like, hey, you and Kirsta want to go out with Ryan and I? And I was like, absolutely. I thought nothing of it. I found out later I was being interviewed by Ryan to make sure that this was a good place for her to come work.

was going to make a big career move. She had a great job and was considering leaving. So I said, let's make sure we're, I didn't know Doug yet, so you can't take offense, right? No. Let's make sure it's good. So anyway, go ahead. I'm just glad I didn't realize that was the purpose at the time.

Yeah. But then Ryan and I sat down and he says, hey, I'm looking for something different. And I mean, five minutes in the conversation, I was like, I would love to have this guy on our team. And so we started having some discussions and I was in, you know, I just said Ryan, hey, I think be extremely great to be part of this organization. We can differentiate ourselves in the market selfishly. You're going to help me a lot. I'm going to learn a lot from you. You're going to make me a better leader. And we really see this as a need in the marketplace because what I see most commonly

from leaders and managers, it can be very lonely. And just having this type of outlet and this expertise to grow. And then I watch somebody be able to do what he's fantastic at and make it his full-time gig. I was really excited. I was in Pennsylvania driving to my daughter's volleyball match, and Ryan called me, it was decision time. So I'm like, oh man, I like to win. So I wanted Ryan to say yes. So I'm sure most people in this room,

especially the guys, have been broken up once or twice from a girl, right? So Ryan starts with, hey, thanks so much for all. And I'm like, I'm sitting here and I'm looking at my mom. I'm like, just get it over with dude, all right? You don't, you know? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he goes, I'm in.

And I was like, what? I felt bad after I said it, he goes, I'm all in. And I literally, I was in Philadelphia, traffic was stopped. And when we got off the phone, I did a, and the lady next to me looked at me like this. But it's just been great for us to differentiate us. Our team learns, our team grows, and it's something I see as huge demand in the marketplace for services. And I was very happy that Ryan had the trust to make the leap. Thank you.

I have a question. Yeah. What do you dream about? You know, it's cool to have a book out. So this is just the beginning. It is the first day. So I think my hope is that every person who gets promoted gets a big congratulations and handed this book.

And so that's really what I hope happens. And I think that then could leave. to additional work probably. That's part of the deal too. But really, if it's just a book, then I'm very happy that if it could impact people. But that's really what I'm thinking about most

is that this... So one of the rewards for like a book selling or things going really well is that you get to keep doing it. So my biggest reward is that I just get to keep doing this. And so that's where I'm really grateful for people who trust me that have paid me

money as part of what I do because that affords me the ability to keep doing the thing that I want to do the most so as Doug knows because we have different styles on goal setting and planning and all this where I said Doug my main goal is that I get to keep doing this and I know though if I'm not a profitable service line for the firm I have to go find a real job and I don't want to find a real job I like what I'm doing I don't have a job and and and and So, but he also is running, Doug and Dave ever running a business. A real business.

A real business. They actually have real, they actually have real jobs. They have real jobs. And if we stop, if we stop actually doing well and making money, then it's bad. So my goal is just to keep doing it. I want to keep doing it. No, I mean, that's never, it's not like he never sat me down. I was like, listen, last month, I don't know, we didn't really hit enough.

No, that's never happened. I, you know, we're both harder on ourselves than anybody else. I think part of it, though, is I want it to be a great deal for these guys. And I want them to feel like it's an incredible deal for them because it's an incredible deal for me. And that's my hope is if I'm always, and the number one way to do that is just to try to help people. And if I'm able to help people, then this thing will probably keep going. Good question. All right, one more, LJ.

Carol, we'll take two more since they came up at the same time. Go ahead, Carol. Lots of questions around the generations. overplayed, but now Generation Z is coming wrong. What advice do you have, and what have you learned? About the younger generation? Yeah. So I think some of younger people get such a bad rap, and it blows my mind.

These kids, and I've spoken to high school teams, they are so much more prepared for life than I was. And I just spoke to Centerville's Women's Basketball Team. I was blown they have freshmen on that team they have young I was blown away by the engagement their excitement I I just feel so positive about the future because I think young younger people are light years ahead of where I was the way they think about things that they get a bad rap about the phones like it's just I I I am very very positive when it comes to the effort energy excitement and engagement of young people. I've had nothing but incredible experiences and it makes me better. So I'm, you know, that's, I, I just, I guess I have all positive

feelings about that. I don't, I may be in the minority there, but that's, I mean, I talked to Jocelyn and Jacob Doug's kids. I mean, I know they're different, right? But I mean, Jocelyn played volleyball at Harvard and she's in med school, right? That's like top whatever. Jacob, you know, Jacob, the same way. And so I, I, I mean, I mean, I'm, And so I think there's just I'm just really, I'm excited about the future and young people. I think there's a lot of, a lot of good role models for our daughters to follow out there right now, I think. Al J. I think with the collaboration here, you see this book being a part of the promotion phase of the folks,

the employees at Brickson, Meyer, from senior level to management level, it's going to be ingrained in the process, which also increased the book sales, saying time as the firm. The firm's not that big. We're not going to create a bestseller internally, my old joke. I mean, I would love for that to happen. I think that'd be great.

We've already kind of started doing a lot of that. You know, we have an internal personal excellence program that we've had in place for now more than a year. That I'm one of the teachers. Doug's one of the teachers. Steve Black's one of the teachers, our head of HR. There'll be others.

Yeah, I think, like I never wanted to be the person know that just said you've got to do this I'd rather them like I said to Jason I'd rather them come to me and say we like this we'd want we'd want to learn more about this I try to take that approach and everything so yeah so it's not like salesy it's more like I'm my focus is on producing excellent work that will make your life better and if I do that enough every single day you'll want to call me whether it's internal or external and if that remains my focus of producing work to help you

then you'll want to call me. That's why I prep so hard and why I work so hard at what I do is so that that work that comes out is excellent. Are your girls in here right now? They're here. I was going to give them the last question because they were going to ask you if they can buy a dog and I wanted to say no in front of all these people. You do?

Ryan, I have a ton of respect and admiration for you. You're awesome. Thank you for being part of this. And I know you haven't arrived. You're still becoming as a JJ Reddick, one of your favorite quotes. So let's give it up for Ryan Hall. Wow. What a day I am very grateful for Doug Meyer for hosting a fantastic event.

More than 90 people showed up to fit inside a room that has a capacity for 36. So standing room only, our five daughters were there watching. My wife Miranda running the show. certainly a day I will never forget. You know, it's interesting. I received an email from my editor, Casey Ebro from McGraw-Hill after the first week the book was out. And she said,

Ryan, there are millions of business books out in the world. Only 18 of them outsold yours your first week. Think about that. We finished the 19th place in week one that this book is out into the world. that is almost not realistic to me that that could have happened. But the reason it did is because of all of you. Your support, you spreading the good word, you buying the book, you writing reviews, all of that is why we've been able to do what we've done.

And because you continue to do it, it gives me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. and for that I will forever be grateful. If you've had a chance to read, Welcome to Management, I'd love it if you would write a review on Amazon and tell a friend or two, perhaps one that may be in a new leadership position and why this book, Welcome to Management, could help them.

Thank you so much for your continued support. I will talk with you very soon. Can't wait.