The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 358: Stephen Covey - The One Thing That Changes Everything (Trust)

Episode Date: March 29, 2020

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk Text LEARNERS to 44222 Full notes can be found at www.LearningLeader.com Episode #358: Stephen Covey - The One Thing That Changes Everything (Trust) Notes: Sustaining excellence = They get results in a way that inspires trust. If you cut costs for profits, you won't earn trust long term. You won't win long term. "You must think... There always is a next time." Build a culture of character and competence.  Those are the components of trust. Taking shortcuts, cutting corners will get your short term results, but you will not sustain it. "Beware of the shortcuts." Make expectations clear. Hitting the number is a commitment. For the mid-level manager: The middle is the key leverage point. You always need to be building trust and delivering results.  Leaders go first. "Be trustworthy. Be trusting." Give trust to others, lead with trust. If you have a bad boss? "Create an island of excellence in a sea of mediocrity." "If we think the problem is everyone else, we disempower ourselves." --> Look in the mirror: 'Here's what I can do..." Self trust. It starts inside of you. Neuroscience on trust - When there is low trust on a tea, it saps the energy and joy. It's not fun. High trust = energizing. How can I be that type of leader? For the person that doesn't trust anyone else, they are really saying, "I don't trust myself." They know they lie. How to build trust with yourself? Learn to make and keep commitments with yourself and others. "Make, keep, repeat. Make, keep, repeat." "Trust is doing what you say you're going to do." "Saying it builds hope. Doing it builds trust." Trust = Character + Competence. Admiral McRaven - "If you wan to change the world, start with making your bed." "Private victories precede public victories." Warren Buffett does deals based on trust. Trust impacts speed and cost.  "Trust decrease transaction costs." --> When you don't have trust, there is a tax on that. When trust goes time, costs go up. When trust goes up, costs go down. Focus on your credibility. Your character and your competence. Build your reputation. Start with your behavior. Behave in a way to garner trust. Distrusts is exhausting. It's not sustainable in relationships. How to handle a non-trusting boss? "You can't change the conditions or change them. If you must stay, focus on YOUR credibility. The starting place is on increasing your credibility, it will create more clout, courage, and permission in your organization.  Always start with yourself." The Seven Habits Of Highly Effective People #1 - Be proactive. You're responsible. "You're not a program. You're a programmer." Between the stimulus and response, there is a space. I choose my response and take responsibility." What's it like having Covey as his last name - "The power is in the principles." #5 - Seek first to understand, then to be understood. A doctor diagnoses before they prescribe. It builds trust when the other person feels understood. #7 - Sharpen the saw - Getting better.  "The Learning Leader has never arrived..." His Dad's ethos: To Live To Love To Learn To Leave a Legacy Here is WHY joining a Learning Leader Circle is a good idea...

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Now on tonight's feature leader to the great Stephen M.R. Covey, New York Times bestselling author of The Speed of Trust, which has sold over 2 million copies worldwide. Stephen is the former CEO of Covey Leadership Center, which under his direction became the largest leadership development company in the world. He personally led the strategy that propelled his father's book, Dr. Stephen R. Covey's The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, to become one of the most influential business books of all time. A few of the topics we discussed, how to create a team that is built on trust and why your actions as the leader are vital. Then he teaches a masterclass on how to handle a bad boss, which is an email I receive frequently, unfortunately. And then what it was like growing up with the legendary Stephen Covey as his dad and what you can learn from his parenting style. Ladies and gentlemen, this one is so good with Stephen M.R. Covey. You have done a fantastic job of, I think, putting yourself in positions to be surrounded by excellent leaders, whether it's from your education and being at Harvard or the work you do with leaders, the books you've written, the people that you've written about.

So you've put yourself in places with leaders who have sustained excellence. And I'm curious, Stephen, from your perspective, what have you found to be the commonalities among leaders who sustain excellence? excellence. Here's what I think helps leaders be really good at this, because I think you're asking the right question, you know, sustained excellence. It's one thing to get performance one time. The question is, can you sustain it overtime? So what I find is that the best leaders are those who get results in a way that inspires trust. Think about that. You know, someone might get results,

but they might do it in a way that diminishes or dilutes trust. They might, you know, you can increase profit by cutting costs in the short term. And yet you might cut into muscle and you might cut capacity or you might, you know, hurt the culture. The real question is, how do you get results in a way that inspires trust? Because if you do that, then your ability to get results the next time has just gone up. And then the next time has just gone up. And there's always a next time. And so that's what I mean.

That's what you mean, I think, if I understand right, by sustained excellence. In other words, excellence is performance. You're performing, but you're doing it in a way that also inspires the trust and the confidence so you can keep performing. You increase the capability. If I were to put this into my father's words, you know, you talked about the, the goose and the golden eggs. And, you know, Aesop's fable, the goose and the golden eggs. And you want, yes, you want the golden eggs, the results,

but you also want a healthy goose that lays the golden eggs. And it's that combination of both. And so that's, for me, is my definition of leadership, getting results in a way that inspires trust. And when you do that, when you inspire that trust and create that trust, then your ability to deliver, to perform, to get results, again, to achieve excellence again, has just gone up. And then that becomes a sustained excellence because you can repeat it.

Do you, this, this seems like it, it makes, it makes obvious sense, but then you get into the real world and CEOs and or leaders are pressured to hit every quarter. And so, and when I, the, the definition of hit would be, let's say, a profitability number, a revenue target. And so they feel this pressure to hit that number for whatever reason. And all of a sudden, the long-term thinking is out the window. And they just shift towards, I have to hit this quarter, I have to hit this quarter, I have an earnings call. We have to hit profit.

And so that's why things like mass layoffs or cuts happen. When you are asked to come in to work with leaders, how do you manage against that? Because they can say, Stephen, this is great. Yeah, you can write books and you can talk about this. that a high level zoomed out thought process. But I'm the one who has to actually be the operational person to execute on this. And if I don't hit the quarter or if I miss two in a row, I get fired. What do you say to that person?

Yeah, it's a great question. I say two things. First, I understand because I've been there. I've been in those shoes, been part of a publicly traded company, been the president of the training education division for it. had to hit the numbers every quarter. And so I understand the pressure. And that pressure is real. And that is part of performing, right? Of excellence is making sure we deliver on our commitments. And so I understand that world and it's very real. So I agree with you that that's the real

challenge. And my second point would be that if we go about this in a sustained way with a long-term perspective. And we really focus on building a culture. And the culture is both a culture of character, but also one of competence. It's not just as people that care about others, but it's also being people who are current, who are relevant, who deliver, who perform, who come through, that combination. Then we build a solid foundation that we can repeat success again and again and again. And it is hard to get ahead of that curve, especially when the pressure is relentless. So I will completely acknowledge that. I've been there.

But I've also learned that if you try to take those shortcuts and cut corners and do things that might compromise your values or compromise kind of who you are as a team, as a leader, as an organization, then, yeah, you might get that short-term result, but you really diminish your capacity to get it again. and again and again and again. And so with people, fast is slow and slow as fast. If we really focus on building that culture and the team, we can deliver and then we can deliver again and again and again. So I've just learned to beware the shortcut. If I ask, yeah, this might help me get the result in the short run, but it really hurt me in the long run, I've really got to ask, is that the best outcome?

And what can I do to build the capacity to deliver? And then I would add one last piece. The more I can make it clear around the expectations, not only of myself, but of my team, that we need to deliver, that hitting our numbers is a commitment. And we're careful about the commitments that we make. And when we make a commitment, we need to hit it. So rather than just viewing it as Wall Street is forcing me to hit my numbers

or some external stakeholders forcing me to hit these numbers, the more we involve people in the problem, in the opportunity, that these numbers represent a commitment. Are we good with this commitment? Can we come through? Can we deliver on this? The more I involve people in that, the more they become committed to it. And then together we work on delivering on our commitment. And that feels a little bit different to people than just hitting our numbers. And so, you know, the more involvement, the more commitment. And then I bring other people into the this and then they help us deliver it together. So none of this is easy. You're exactly right. It sounds easy, but it's not. It's very hard to execute. It's simple, but it's not easy. But if we get enough of a critical mass, we can do it better together as a team. So Stephen, there are a lot of

people listening who are not the CEO of their company. They are somewhere in between that individual contributor and the CEO role. So you could call that mid-level management from frontline leader to SVP, perhaps, in titles. And their jobs are, they're tasked with taking the vision of the leadership of the company and working to execute to then exceed their goals for their team. And so the questions that they typically have for me and that I have and try to help them with are they're working on how to build a culture within my team, how to make good hiring decisions, how to build a culture of trust, right? And this is what you're all about. So for that specific

person who is in that mid-level management role, when they ask, when they come to you with questions or advice, and usually the word trust will be one of the first things I would imagine that comes up, what's some of the initial advice on trust and building culture for that person, not the CEO, but the person in the middle that you give. Yeah. And I'll tell you why, that's where probably the majority of my work is being done. I do some work at the highest levels, but probably right in the middle. That's the key leverage point and is so important.

And so my advice to that leader is this, is that if you yourself can be a model of the kind of leadership we're talking about, even if you're not seeing it at the top, but if you yourself can become a model of it, where you are delivering results, but you're also building trust on your team and in your, and in your culture within your team, then people can start to look at that as an example. And so the more you lead out with it and say, look, I'm going to try to go first and be an example of this, but what's important to me is that we deliver performance, we perform,

but we do it in a way that builds our team and our culture. and we're a better team if we can trust each other. And a high trust team can deliver more. And it's also more fun. It's more enjoyable. We'll all do better. We'll enjoy it more if we can trust each other. So I'm going to try to build this trust as a great multiplier for our team.

And then you have a great chance as the leader kind of go first to model it. And so, you know, it could be as simple as, hey, if I make a commitment to you, team members, I'm going to keep it or else I'm not going to make it. I kind of tell people what I'm going to do to earn to build their trust. I'm going to try to listen first and understand. I'm going to try to – if I talk to you, I'm going to talk straight. I'm not going to spin it or sugarcoat it or paint a different scenario. I'm kind of just telling people what I'm going to do as the leader to try to build trust in me and on the team.

And I'll give you one more key piece, Ryan, as a leader of a team within the middle of the organization. Also, I'm going to try to not just be trustworthy. I want to start by being trustworthy so it's smart for people to trust me. But I also want to be trusting as a leader. I want to extend trust. Lead with it. I'm going to lead with it. And I want to give it to people and say, I trust you.

And I don't want to just do it blindly. It's always good to have clear expectations and the agreed upon process for accountability. But when you extend trust another person, it inspires them. And then they want to perform. They want to deliver on that. And they rise to the occasion. They perform better. It brings the very best out of them.

And so be trustworthy, but also be trusting. And that combination of being trustworthy, being trustee, will really help create a culture of trust. And when you get that culture of trust, even if you're not being trusted back from the top, you can create an island of excellence, sometimes in a sea of mediocrity. And, you know, your team is hitting the numbers and look at your engagement scores. They're the highest, you know, in the region or the highest around. And people are saying, wow, what are they doing there?

And you can become a model and hopefully even a mentor to other teams and let that ripple out and maybe even up in the organization. So that, that me my, you know, that's the opportunity to. leaders there is, is they can, you know, the great news is they have an ability to impact their team and let that that team become a model and a mentor for the rest of the organization. So don't underestimate the impact you can have when you're in the middle in middle management. If you can build a great team right there, that itself can become a great model to the rest of the organization.

Create an island of excellence and a sea of mediocrity. This is a question that comes up. I would imagine you get it a lot too, and that's why you're going towards it is. I believe in this. I'm growth oriented. I'm trust oriented. I'm leading with vulnerability. I'm leading with trust.

But I'm not necessarily surrounded by it in my organization or above me. And so I think that's the perfect response of that, though, is build it from within and then watch it spread. It can be really beautiful to see that happen. don't use that as an excuse for you as a leader to be average just because you may see it above you or around you. Absolutely, Ryan. And it's more difficult, obviously, if above and around you there's mediocrity or there's distrust or there's people cutting corners, not living the values. It clearly makes it more difficult because that's the culture. So I'm acknowledging that.

But here's the thing. if we think that the problem is out there, is everybody else, that very thinking is the problem, because we can, we disempower ourselves. And we've got to basically look in the mirror and say, okay, yes, if I look out the window, I can see all kinds of problems above me, to the side of me. but when I look in the mirror I can say okay here's what I can do

and I can start with myself I can lead from the inside out and I can start with myself and then I can start with my relationships I can start with my team and build that strength there become that island of excellence perhaps in the sea of mediocrity

and let that ripple out and influence from there I use the metaphor the ripple effect where the drop of water comes down and then the ripples the waves they start at the inside and they ripple out. And each one of us that starts with our self-trust. You know, self-trust, do I trust myself?

Do I give to my team a leader who they can trust? Do I extend trust to them? And then I ripple out from there. So inside out is the most sustainable approach to leadership versus outside end thinking as soon as he changes or she changes or they change and we align our systems and structures, then I'll hit my. numbers or then I can build the team. And that might all be helpful, but we can't always do something about that. But what we can always do something about is looking in the mirror and starting with

ourselves, inside out. You know, we all probably know those people in the world that are so cynical or skeptical and they don't trust anybody else. I'm a little bit weary around those types because there's a reason for that. It's probably because they're not a very trustworthy person. And so I choose to surround myself with people who lead with trust as well. When you're thinking about someone to hire or a boss perhaps to go work for when you're in the process looking at a job, listen to what they say about other people. Listen to what they say in the interview process about the business.

Are they throwing others under the bus? Are they not very trustworthy? That would really make me think twice about wanting to go work for that person. while I still have the agency to make this decision because it's not a very fun environment to work with a leader who is not trusting. Absolutely. In fact, here's what's interesting about that. The neuroscience on trust is coming out right now like never before.

And the neuroscience shows that when there's low trust on a team or low trust in a culture or low trust with a boss, it just saps. the energy and the joy, the happiness, the satisfaction. It's no fun. It's exactly what you're saying. It is exhausting and no fun to be in a low trust team or in a low trust culture or in a low trust relationship. Whereas when there's high trust, it is energizing, it is inspiring. It's infinitely more fun and enjoyable when there's trust.

And so, yeah, so you look at when I'm trusted, that inspires me. when I'm not, it tends to not do it. So how can I be that kind of leader that inspires others and conveys that kind of trust, both being trustworthy but also being trusting? Hey, I'll tell you a little story on this one, Ryan, that as you mentioned, I think a key point that people that tend to not trust others often don't even trust themselves. One time I gave a presentation on the speed of trust, and we had a broad. break. And at the break, someone came up to me and said, you know, this is really helpful

because it's giving me a framework for really the challenges in my life. And I can see it in a whole new way now. And I said, well, tell me more. And he said, well, look, I'm not, I'm not where I want to be in my life or my career. And I've always blamed everybody else. My very first job, can't trust my boss. So I go to another job within that same company, can't trust this boss either. go to another company, can't trust management here, can't trust this person, can't trust that person. I go home my community, you know, can't trust my neighbor. And then he said, I don't even trust my kids. And then I realized what my problem is.

When you put up that idea of the, I call it, you know, the ripple effect, the five waves of trust, the idea that trust starts at the inside and ripples out, I realized what my problem was. And then he kind of looked around to make sure nobody was looking. and then he whispered into my ear and he said these words, I don't trust myself. I don't trust myself. And I realize now I am projecting that distrust of myself out onto everybody else, into all of my relationships.

It's becoming the lens to which I viewed the world. I don't trust myself, so how could I trust others? So his next question became, you know, so what do I do about this? Yeah. How do I build this self-trust? And I said, well, first of all, the very fact you can see this is very, is useful because many times people don't see that they look at the world through a lens. And you can now see that your lack of self-trust is causing you to not build trust with others.

So here's the best way to build trust with yourself. You know, learn to make and keep commitments to yourself in the little things. Because that's the fastest way to build trust with another person. make another person a commitment and then keep it. Make a commitment and keep it. Repeat that process. Make, keep, repeat. Make, keep, repeat.

You can build trust fast with others that way. But guess what? That's also the fastest way to build trust with yourself. Make yourself a commitment and then keep it, especially in the little things. And sometimes we don't treat ourselves and the commitments we make to ourselves with the same respect that we treat a commitment to somebody else. but it's in those little things and we begin to get a sense of clarity, of integrity, of self-trust,

and ultimately of power. And then that flows inside out. When we trust ourselves, we can now build trust with others. And so it's got to be the starting point. Look in the mirror, start with ourselves, trust yourself, build a trust in yourself, and then let it ripple out from there.

Your ability to build trust with others goes up dramatically. Learn to make and keep commitments with yourself and others. think it's again sounds simple but that action that mindset of this is how I will behave this is the type of person that I'm going to be when I say I'm going to do something I am going to do it 100% of the time I want to be you you know Stephen we were talking before we started recording about our our football backgrounds you're your son playing in college and I played in college my brother played and the pros. And one of the things that as I would talk with his teammates on the Green Bay Packers,

I became close with a number of them. I still am. And one of the things that they always said about my brother, AJ, that I think he's most proud of and I'm certainly most proud of him about, is that he was always there for them. He was always going to show up and do his job at 100% of time. They trusted that he was going to be in his gap at the right time, the right moment, every time, no matter what. And that's why they voted him captain of a Super Bowl winning team because they trusted.

He probably wasn't the fastest guy or the biggest guy or the most athletic guy. But they knew that he was reliable and going to do his job every single time. And I think that was ingrained in us from our parents from a young age. You do what you say you're going to do in everybody in your life, whether it's your football teammates at work with your spouse and your kids. When you say that you're going to do something, you do it with no. exceptions and that's how you build trusting relationships. You've nailed it. Absolutely. And it's it is that simple. It's just, it's not that easy. It's that simple and it's that hard.

It's that simple and it's that hard. Something can be simple but not easy, but you do what you say you're going to do. But I'll tell you what, saying it builds hope. Then doing it builds trust. And you need both the hope and the trust in today's world. You need to get to stand for something. So you have a reputation. You have a brand. I say, here's what I'm going to do. That builds hope.

People say, okay. And then when you deliver on that, when you do what you say you're going to do, that builds trust. You come through. You stand for something. You deliver on that. That builds for a company that builds brand equity. For a person that builds personal brand equity, that I am who I say I am. I do what I say I'm going to do.

You can count on me. Your brother, AJ, you know, people trusted him completely because they trusted both his character and his competence. And he would do what he'd say he was going to do. And so it's that simple and it's that difficult. And I saw this. I'm friends with Admiral William McCraven. Yeah. Make your bed, right?

Exactly. that simple idea that he gave that great presentation, University of Texas commencement speak. You know, he had been the commander of special operations, you know, the elite fighting forces. So a very special military leader. Then it becomes the chancellor of the University of Texas system. And he goes down in his commencement speech. And the idea was simple. If you want to change the world, make your bed.

Start by making your bed. It's a great talk. In other words, you start with a small commitment, you keep it. And then you keep another. And then another and another, you go from there. That simple, that difficult. Inside out. My father did the same thing with seven habits.

And his whole premise was, you know, private victories precede public victories. So you start with yourself and you have that private victory over self. And, you know, you're true to your values. You're clear on who you are. You live it. And when you start with that kind of. sense of clarity and integrity of self-trust. You now can build trust with other people. They can trust you because you're trustworthy, but also you have more of a proclivity and a

mindset to trust others because you're saying, I can trust myself. And inside out is so powerful, looking in the mirror, making your bed in those little things, and it ripples out. Now, we have to move out and it gets more complicated, but we'll have a hard time sustaining any of this if we don't start from the inside out. It's the only way to start. There's a great story you write about in The Speed of Trust, which everybody should read that book, by the way, but the speed of trust is,

this story is about Warren Buffett, and he did a deal with Walmart to acquire a McLean distribution for $23 billion. And this deal was essentially done over one conversation and a handshake. Normally, deals like of this size would maybe take six months to a year.

And Warren's quote was, we did no due diligence. We knew everything would be as Walmart said it would be. And it was. Trust, as General Stanley McChrystal told me on this podcast and others have said, trust decreases transaction cost, literally in this case, right, on accountants and lawyers and everything else with this case. And share how that story could then, you could maybe explain. expand on that and talk a little bit more about the details there, but how that could relate to all of us.

Yeah. Well, it's a great story, and it's been repeated many, many times by Warren Buffett. I've talked to other companies he's acquired and how he would do deals on the basis of trust, and he could do them so much faster with less cost. And so if you extrapolate it, here's the idea. trust always affects two measurable outcomes, always, speed and cost. And when trust goes down in a relationship or on a team or in a company or with a customer or partner, when the trust goes down, the speed will go down with it. Everything that will now take you longer to do and the cost will go up. It will cost you more.

And I call that a tax, a low trust tax. and so think about for our listeners when you're working with someone who you don't trust, whether it's a colleague or a peer or a direct report or a boss or a customer partner, and you don't trust them, you've got to now take all these steps to compensate for that. You've got to check. You've got to verify. You've got to validate. You've got to follow through on something.

And that takes you longer. It costs you more. Speed goes down, cost goes up. It is a tax. And if you wanted to, you could even put a value. you on that, a quantified cost to that distrust. But the good news is that the converse is equally true. And when that trust goes up in the relationship, when it goes up on your team or with your customer and with your partner, speed goes up with it. You can do everything faster and cost

comes down. That is a dividend, a high trust dividend. And Ryan, it's that simple, that powerful, that predictable. And examples of the high trust dividend, greater speed, lower cost, are all around us. So think of, I ask our listeners, think of working with someone who you do trust. Again, a colleague, a peer, a direct report, a boss, a partner, a customer, and you trust each other. Let's say you're selling to somebody and you built trust in the relationship. And now it comes time to renew the agreement and they trust you. You know, you can move fast. Think of referral business where your customer tells your prospect that they should trust you. And there's a transference of trust from your customer to your prospect and your prospect becomes a customer faster and at less cost.

Again, these are the dividends of high trust, greater speed, lower cost. So Warren Buffett, he's so trusted, so credible, his character's competence. So even when he doesn't know people, he comes in, they trust. him out of the gates because his reputation precedes him. He's credible. And he goes in and he does deals on the basis of trust. In fact, he's looking for a good deal that makes sense. He wants to understand the business. He wants the deal to work. But he also asked this question, can I trust the person? And if he can't, he won't do the deal. If he can, he'll do the deal. But then he's doing deals on hand shakes, closing them in less than a month instead of six months to a year,

and spending no money in due diligence instead of the millions you typically would spend. That's the speed of trust, and it's extraordinary. And for Warren Buffett, that's a smart trust because nobody's going to mess with Warren Buffett. He's, you know, he's Warren Buffett. His reputation is so strong. And he's got these dividends operating everywhere. And his company has, you know, here has got 377,000 employees.

They bought some 77 plus companies, and they have a headquarter staff of only 25 people of these 377,000 employees unheard of, but he trusts them. Yeah. I would say that though, Stephen. I don't, how would you relate that, though, to the rest of us? You know what I'm saying? Like, I love Warren Buffett. I read everything there is to read about Warren Buffett. But I don't know if he's relatable to most of us, because.

as you just said, his reputation precedes him. And he's earned that reputation by leading with trust, no doubt. But what about for the person who is not Warren Buffett who's listening? And maybe they're in the position to buy companies or to merge or even just to hire somebody. And that's a smaller version of merging. What about to that person that isn't the Warren Buffett where you'd say, well, Walmart's not going to screw Warren Buffett. It's Warren Buffett. But they may do that to somebody else.

maybe somebody else would. What about to that person so it's more relatable to them? Absolutely. Same principles. You focus on your credibility. And by credibility, that is your character and your competence. And the more credible you are, then the faster you can build trust. And people can learn to trust you. You build your own brand, your own reputation within that sphere. And that sphere might be as simple as it's not buying companies. It's is I'm trying to, you know, attract the best people to my team. Yep. And I want to build a reputation that, gosh, I want to work for Ryan.

You know, because he empowers his team and he gives them responsibility and he sets them up to win. And he cares about his teammates. He cares about the people that work with him. And he wants to help them advance and to succeed. And you get that kind of reputation that people learn about that about you. you and you become in your own realm, the Warren Buffett, where your reputation goes in front of you because people know you care about your team and you both get the results, but you do it in a way

that brings people along with you. And so it can happen at every level. The principles are the same. It's just that as you move higher up, the stakes get higher and higher and the, you know, the visibility of it gets higher and higher. But the principle is the same. You start with yourself. your credibility, and that's your character, your competence, your behavior. You know, do you talk straight? Do you create transparency? Do you clarify expectations with your team? Do you have a process for accountability? Do you listen first? Do you keep your commitments and do you extend trust? These are things that each of us can do. And when we start with credibility and then we behave our way into greater trust, we will earn and build and grow and expand that trust.

And when you get results in a way that builds a trust, then that begins to ripple out. And you get that reputation that becomes, that precedes you in your realm, in your world. And people say, I want to be part of Ryan's team. I want to work with Ryan. I love it. I will ask, this is a little bit negative, but I think it's because others have probably dealt with this. In my professional life, I once a new boss was placed in front of me, not one that I chose to work with, but the company chose. And I had made a hiring decision.

And prior to him working there, I was able to make those decisions because I had a pretty big title. I did not have to get it checked off with anybody other than HR, which in this case I did. I made a hiring call. And it was someone who didn't have a lot of experience but had so many other qualities that I love that it trumped all of the experience. And that new boss actually rescinded the offer to that person and pulled me aside and said, you have not, I said to him, you have to trust me. This is a good hire. I know what I'm doing.

Believe me. And here's why. And I listed out all of the reasons why. And he said, you have not earned my trust. You haven't earned my trust. You're not doing that. I'm rescinding the offer. And to me, that action made it so that I would not be able to be in a long-term relationship

with that person. and I eventually left. And that was the starting point. That exact moment and those words to me meant everything that I don't see how this is going to work. And I later went on to realize that person didn't trust anybody. And I realized why, because they were a liar. And so for others that are in that position, how other than, and maybe the only answer is what I ended up doing. But what advice do you give someone who maybe is dealing with something like that right now?

Well, first of all, let me say this. Isn't it interesting how for you, Ryan, when that person doesn't trust you and they do so deliberately, explicitly, and they tell you, you haven't earned my trust, I don't trust what that did to you. You know, you're just kind of like, this is no fun. I don't want to be a part of this. This is not going to be a long-term solution. That's what it does.

Distrust literally exhaust people, relationships, cultures. It's not sustainable. So this is, you know, this is, you will not get sustainable excellence with distrust. So that's one learning. But, but it's also a reality. Your, your story, your experience is probably more common to most of us that there's a lot of leaders that don't trust their people and their team and they lead out with that. So what do you do when you're in that situation?

Yeah. You can't necessarily change another person. You can only create conditions for them to choose to change themselves. But what you can do is you can. focus on yourself and your credibility. And so I'd give a couple of thoughts to that. One is, ultimately, there might be some circumstances and cultures where your best move might be to do what you did, which is at some point you moved out. And, you know, you focused on your world and you tried to do what you could within that realm. And at some point, you might leave. And I acknowledge that's,

that's happened to me before. You know, you do what you can within that realm, but sometimes you try to find a different place where you can work with people who you trust. In other cases, maybe that's not a possibility. So here's one thought. The first step is if you focus on your credibility, so even though the problem is the boss, I still think the starting place for each of us is to say, how can I increase my credibility? Because the reason I say that is because the more credible you are as a person, as a teammate as a leader, the more credible you are, the more clout that gives you, the more courage it gives you, the more permission it gives you to have even difficult conversations with your boss. And the less credible you are, the less courage you have, the less clout, the less permission

you have to have that conversation. So always start with yourself, even when the other person is the problem. That will get just, you'll just operate from a larger platform. You'll have more strength, more courage, more clout. But then here's a, here's a one thought, especially if the person is at least open, is, is you might say to the person, rather than saying, making it about them, you know, what's wrong with you, boss? You don't trust anybody. You might say something like this. Hey, what, what can I do to earn? your confidence such that you you can count on me you can rely upon me you can depend upon me you can have trust in me because I want to become that kind of person for you and I want to earn it

and and that's a different approach and saying what's wrong with you boss how come you don't trust me instead you say what can I do I love that to earn your confidence your trust and suddenly you're owning this even though they're part of the problem you're saying what can I do to earn your trust and they might shrug it off or what have you but they also might say well you know you got to deliver and until you deliver i won't trust i said okay great so let me understand and then you kind of repeat back what you're hearing of if you know you want someone that delivers that performs yeah and you got to and you got to tell me what you're doing i got to know what you're doing okay so you want me to be keep you informed and abreast yeah and you try to understand and then kind of say okay so

if i hear you right you want someone who delivers and and keeps me informed. Yeah, that's right. I'm going to try to do that as best I can. Let me know how I'm doing. Let me know how I can do it better. Because I want to become that kind of person to you, and I know I have to earn it.

And then you start to do that, and you start to do that. And then over time, what you may find, not in every case, but in many cases, the person says, good, good. And then they start to become a little bit more trusting of you, just a little bit. And then you deliver on the next thing. And then the next thing, and you report back. then over time they start to say, hmm, maybe with Ryan I can give a little bit more trust and a little bit more.

And you're trying to almost leading your boss to learn how, helping them understand how they can learn to extend trust to other people by being that kind of person that can be trusted, by understanding what's important to them, delivering on it, and then saying, what else can I do to help and to deliver to earn your trust? and over time you can literally become someone that the boss can trust. They might trust you and they might not trust anybody else on the team, but they've learned that you're willing to earn that trust. And if they can learn to trust one, they might be able to learn trust another. So this is not easy. And it might be easier to just get off and go out to another team.

But I am saying that when you make it about you, not them, and what can I do to earn that kind of trust, then it's amazing how sometimes, you can behave your way into greater trust with some that doesn't even trust anybody. Well, that Stephen, it really makes me think of and it's this is a great transition that you're helping me make. It's a 30th,

30 year anniversary of the seven habits of highly effective people, literally one of the greatest texts of all time written by your dad. And it's, it's being re-released. I think your brother Sean is involved in this, correct? And, and,

and what you just said, makes me think of habit number one in a way. And the first three habits of seven habits to focus on independence. And the first habit, and this is advice that my wife Miranda constantly gives to people earlier in their career. And that's be proactive. It's taking responsibility for your reaction to experiences. It's taking initiative to respond positively and improve situations. And I sense what you just said of how to deal with a boss who's not trusting.

is that of a leader who is proactive in their behavior. And why this is such a useful way to behave on a daily basis is to be that of somebody who thinks of themselves as, I'm proactive. I'm going to take responsibility. Can you share more about habit number one of the seven habits of highly effective people and that's being proactive? Absolutely.

It's the foundational habit. That's why it's habit number one. because it gives you the basis on which you can do the other six habits. Be proactive means you're responsible. You know, you're in charge. You know, you are not a program. You are a programmer. And so you can write the program.

And so let's compare be proactive to the opposite, which is be reactive. And be reactive is, you know, there's a stimulus. There's something that happens to me and I just respond. And, you know, whatever happens to me is because of the stimulus in front of me. And so I got a bad boss and I respond bad back. And that's being real active. And you say, hey, got a bad boss. Doesn't trust me.

You know, and so I'm just reactive. The idea of being proactive is to say this. Between what happens to us, our stimulus and our response, there is a space. And in that space is my ability to choose my response. and based upon my values, based upon what's important to me. And I can choose to exercise that freedom in that space and choose my response and be proactive, take responsibility. And so there's a lot of things that are happening to me I don't like.

That's in my circle of concern. I'm concerned about that. But the question is being proactive is I work within that circle of concern. There's another circle, a smaller circle, which is my circle of internal circle, which is my circle of influence, something I can do something about, something I can influence. That's smaller than all the things I'm concerned about. A reactive person focuses on the circle of concern, all the bad things out there, all the things that are happening. My bad boss, the proactive person focuses on the inner circle of influence, the things I can do something about, the things I can influence and have an effect

upon. And what happens is that circle of influence grows and grows. And, grows and grows when you feed it. When you focus on your circle of concern, all the things out there that you can't control, your circle of influence inside of that diminishes. It shrinks because you become more reactive rather than proactive. And so this is about being proactive, taking responsibility. You got a bad boss? Well, you learn how now to deal with a bad boss and how to help a bad boss learn to trust you because you're being proactive of earning that versus just saying, I got a bad boss, terrible, I can't do anything about it. You know, that's being reactive. Proactive is saying, what can I do about it? And maybe I can become the kind of

direct report that my boss can trust. And the example I gave is exactly being proactive, working in your circle of influence. And then what happens is over time, that circle of influence expands and gets bigger and you get more influence and you can move on from there. Again, it's inside out. And it starts with habit one, be proactive. You are in charge. Great stuff. I want to go through some of the other habits. We're not going to cover all of them.

I think it's if for some reason you have not read this book yet, the seven habits of highly effective people, you absolutely should. It's a foundational text, that one that is literally, it's been read by how many millions now, 25 plus? 30 million now. 30 million now. 30 million. Wow.

By the way, before we get back to that, what is it like? This may be a weird question. So if you don't want to answer, we'll just go on the next one. what is it like having a last name Covey? Well, you know, it's the only thing I've known. And I'm very proud of it. Yeah.

Because and proud of my legacy, proud of my, I feel a sense of stewardship, Ryan. Yeah. A sense of responsibility to be true to my father's mission, his work, his legacy. And so it gives, to me, it's a trust. It's a responsibility of stewardship to want to try to live worthy of it.

For us kids, growing up, we were, we were my father's, our father's guinea pigs. He started with us. He tried this stuff out with us. And he'd teach us these seven habits. He didn't call it at the time seven habits, but he was teaching these principles. He taught us early on, be proactive. Don't be reactive. We come in, we say, I got a lousy teacher.

And he'd say, okay, be proactive. You got a bad teacher. It's your responsibility to learn. Learn. Not the teachers. It's yours. He wouldn't, he wouldn't let you whine or complain. He'd say, you're responsible, you're proactive. Use your resourcefulness. Use your initiative. Make it happen. And then all the, all the habits, he taught him. Begin with the end in mind, habit two. I'll never forget one time we had a family meeting where he took us to a building, the very top of a building. And then we looked down at a big hole next door to this building. And he said, said, you see that hole? A year from now, there's going to be a building right there. There's a, and he goes, there's a blueprint that has already built this building mentally on a piece of paper. And he had his architect friend that was with us, and he pulled out the blueprint. And he said, that is beginning with the end in mind. They've already built that new building

that you just see a hole of right now mentally. And, you know, with it. this blueprint. And then we came back a year later, maybe it was two years later, because it took a while to build. And we saw the built building. He said, now that's what I mean by habit to, begin with end in mind. You would build it mentally, you know, and then physically. And he would illustrate it. He would, you know, he teach us these things and illustrate it. So that's what I grew up with, Ryan. It was really remarkable. I view it now as an extraordinary gift I was given. what what age was he when seven habits came out um he was 57 wow seven habits was published so did it did it immediately catch on and become this world famous book or did it take time i yeah it it actually hit pretty

hit pretty hard fast okay so he so he was probably not he was not was he not necessarily famous prior to the book coming out he was not um that famous, but he was a little bit within, he'd been teaching seven habits about 10 years prior to the book. Okay, so he had his following. Yeah. But he just wasn't the masses yet. Gotcha. And when the book came out, that's when the following really expanded.

But he had a lot of corporate clients and clients where he'd done a lot of teaching, training of seven habits, and they were big fans. He just wasn't widely known. How did it change your family's life once your dad became Stephen Covey? Well, he was always the same person before, after as he was before. And that was the great thing about my dad is that his success never went to his head. He always saw himself, Ryan, as that he would say, you know, these seven habits aren't mine. I'm teaching principles that existed before me and after me. I'm just trying to organize them and frame them and sequence them.

make them accessible, but they're not mine. And he saw that himself as a steward, and he was a synthesizer of this. And so none of this ever went to his head. It was always about, not about him, but about the principles. And so if people would come up to him and treat them, you know, like some kind of guru, he'd say, no, no, no, no, you're missing the point. The power's in the principles. I'm teaching principles of human effectiveness, of personal effectiveness, of interpersonal effectiveness. And that's where the power is. Look to the principles not to, not to me. And, you know, he was very clear about that. So he was always the same person after, just like he was before. Have you, have you felt a sense of pressure slash responsibility to live up to the name?

Yes. And in a good way. Yeah. Like I said, I, it's a sense of stewardship, of responsibility. but it's a trust that's been given in a sense that my father created and I want to live up to it. I want to be worthy of it and try to carry it forward and I feel a sense of responsibility and stewardship and I want to give back.

I want to continue it. Absolutely. It's a positive to me and it inspires me and helps me try to live up to a rise of the occasion. It's cool to see the success. that your family, an extended family has had, it shows that not only your dad, did your dad help millions and millions of people, but it seems like he was just a great dad. And that, that warms my heart because as kids and grandkids go on to be doing excellent things in the world without a big

head, I would imagine you guys are financially doing pretty well. And yet you still have grinded hard, written some incredible books and work that have helped a lot of people in addition to the work that your dad has done. So that's great. Do you have time to cover two more habits real quick? Absolutely. Okay. So it's hard to pick only two, but I think this one is good because it deals with empathy. Number five is seek first to understand than to be understood because I think nowadays particularly, this is important. And a lot of us mess this up. And I say us because I put myself in that in that uh that camp from time to time even though i'm upset with myself when i mess this one up but but but habit five is seek first to understand then to be understood yeah this

is my my father would sometimes say that this habit represented his greatest insight that the it was the most powerful way of being effective with other people was this principle seek first to understand then to be understood because most of us naturally want to be understood, and we tend to lead out with that. You know, if, you know, I'm trying to get my idea across, my point across, and, you know, that's important. It's just the sequences backwards. If you start by understanding another person or a situation, then your ability to become

understood will go up and your influence will go up. You know, a doctor, they diagnose before they prescribe. You wouldn't want to go to a doctor who without listening would say you need to take this pill. And you haven't even told your story yet. You know, you got to diagnose before you prescribe. And so you understand first before you become understood. And most people listen not with the intent to really understand another. Rather, most of us listen with the intent to reply, to respond.

So we're respectful or even people. patient, but sometimes we're just kind of waiting our turn and formulating our reply. But what really builds trust, what really builds influence with another person is when they feel understood. And the test of understanding is not when you tell the person, hey, I understand you. No, it's when they tell you, I feel understood. Thank you for listening. And I would say this, Ryan, that maybe the biggest important thing to recognize about Habit 5, seek first to understand, then be understood, is that understanding another does not necessarily mean that you agree with them. You may not. You may disagree. You may see the world differently. It just means that you're seeking to get into

their shoes and understand them to where they feel understood. And so you look at people today in our society, completely disagree with each other, completely, you know, see the world differently. And there's no trust given. There's no understanding achieved. And they're talking right past each other. It's in our society. It's in our politics. It's everywhere. And the key to changing that cycle, a vicious downward cycle, is understanding. And the key is someone needs to go first. And the leader goes first. And if you seek first to, understand. And when the other person feels understood, suddenly they become, it's like giving a person air and it's emotional air that they now can say, oh, thank you. I feel understood. Now, what do you think?

They're more open to hearing, to be, you know, to hear you back. And we, we just too often, you know, don't follow the sequence. So the sequence matters to that. I think a little bit of the Abraham Lincoln quote, I believe it's Abraham Lincoln. I don't like that man. I must get to know him better, right? You know, it makes so much sense about, especially with the polarizing world we live in at times, it's, I want to try to understand why that's your viewpoint, why you think that way. It's different from mine. And I'm fascinated by putting myself in rooms and talking to people where we think differently.

And I do this regular sequence of podcasts with a guy named Jay Akunzo. And Jay is a extreme extrovert. I'm an extreme introvert. We have wildly different ways of how we do our work. Yet I have these incredible conversations with him because I think we're so different. And that's when I learn and grow so much. So I think that's real. Habit number five is so important for people to think about.

Let's go one more and it makes sense based upon the name of my show. It's all about continual improvement, Stephen. Sharpen the saw. That's what being a learning. leader to me it was all about. And that's why I love the phrase. That's why five years ago when I was thinking of the name, I came up with this one because my favorite people in the world, my favorite bosses, leaders, coaches were the ones who I could see them working on bettering themselves every day, signing up for trainings, putting themselves in spaces where they were not the smartest

person in the room, always working on sharpening this all. Absolutely. It's this ongoing process. of continuous improvement and of renewal and getting better and improvement. That's why I love the essence of your podcast, you know, sustained excellence, but also even the title, you know, the whole idea, the learning leader. So it's not the arrived leader. I've already arrived. I've achieved success. I've arrived.

No, it's the learning leader. You're always learning. You're always improving. You're always getting better. And the idea of sharpen the saw is, you know, never be too busy sawing to take time to sharpen the saw. Because when you sharpen that saw, then you can saw a lot faster because the saw is sharp, you know, the saw is sharp. And so in a sense, we're saying, we are that saw, each of us. We are the instrument that performs and that leads.

And we've got to focus on ourselves on both our continuous improvement, but also on our renewal. and the whole idea of renewing yourself. And you do it in four areas. The body, the heart, the mind, the spirit. The body is the physical. So that's exercise and the like. And that also represents the economic. The heart is the social, emotional.

And it's about relationships. And it's about love. And it's about caring and building the heart and renewing yourself through relationships. the most important things in life. The mind is, you know, your intellect and your mental development and you're learning and improving. And this is where you so heavily focused, although I would say that, I would argue that your

podcast is focusing really in all four dimensions, you know, but you're always improving and you're growing and you don't arrive. You're just constantly renewing, improving, reinventing yourself, getting better, staying relevant in a changing world. learning leader. And then finally, the spirit, the idea of the spirit is it's about meaning. It's about purpose. It's about contribution. Life is not about accumulation. Life is about contribution. Creating value, making a difference, mattering. And my father coined this phrase for these four dimensions, to live, to love, to learn, to leave a legacy. And that kind of represents all these

different dimensions of how we renew ourselves, how we improve ourselves in those four dimensions, to live, to love, to learn, to leave a legacy. That's the body, the heart, the mind, the spirit. And we're always improving. We're always getting better. We're sharpening the saw. And that's, you know, why I was so delighted to be part of your podcast, because it's about the learning leader, sharpening the saw, getting better as how we can lead better. And I'm trying to suggest, you know, we lead better when we build trust, when we earn the trust and when we're trusting of others and we, you know, smartly, wisely extend that trust. That's a better form of leadership. And when we lead better when we work from the inside out, meaning we look in the mirror, we start with ourselves, we're proactive and we focus on what we can do and not on the weaknesses of other people and either of our boss or of our own people.

And we become, you know, the model of it inside out. And, you know, so these are the kind of things that help us become a better leader to achieve that sustained excellence, where we get results and we do it in a way that inspires the trust so that we can get results again the next time and the next time. And there's always a next time. Stephen, man, you know how to bring it home. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here, man. Where would you send my listeners to learn more about you online? I would say maybe the best place is just go to the website, speedoftrust.com.

Speedoftrust.com. And we got some videos, some tools, some things you can access for free that will help you build more trust as a leader and as a person. And, of course, my book is The Speed of Trust. And my father's book, because we've got the 30-year anniversary edition, is the seven habits of highly effective people. But that would probably be the best place. I'm also on Twitter at Stephen M.R. Covey. And I'd love to have you follow me. Highly, highly recommend it.

For some reason you haven't read The Speed of Trust or Seven Habits. They are some of those foundational books, meaning that they're the must-reads that you read and reread probably at least once a year to give you a good refresher. And each time you read it, you take some more notes. So, Stephen, thank you so much for investing your time with me to get today and giving so much juice and energy, man. I really appreciate it. I've admired your work for a long time. It's positively impacted my life and the people that are around me.

So thank you so much. I'd love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. I love it, Ryan. Thank you. Thank you for doing what you're doing because we need learning leaders. You're helping, helping create them by giving great ideas, content application, insights to them with your guests that you're bringing on. It's an ongoing journey. You're a vital part to helping leaders everywhere on that journey. So I admire and commend and affirm you for what you're doing. It's awesome. Thank you so much, man. Thank you. I'm excited for the next one already, man. Thank you. All right. Bye, place. What a joy for me to have the opportunity to speak with Stephen Covey. His book,

The Speed of Trust, has greatly impacted my life as a husband, as a dad, and certainly as a leader at work. And the seven habits of highly effective people is that text that it gets read and re-read every year. His dad, Dr. Stephen Covey, certainly has produced a masterpiece. And I love the humble nature in which he shared. It's about the principle, not about him. And that's probably why his family has gone on to be so successful. A few of the key pieces of this talk that I remembered.

practically when you have a bad boss don't try to change them build your credibility build your clout build your courage build it from within and look for the ripple effect that happens when you act in that manner and then be trustworthy be trusting be the leader who leads with trust that's the type of person that we all want to commit to and remember Remember his dad's mantra, to live, to love, to learn, to leave a legacy. So beautiful. What a way to live your life.

Thank you so much for continuing to support my efforts, to have these curiosity conversations and learn from some of the most thoughtful leaders in the world. Because you continue to spread the word and tell one person at a time, it continues to give me the opportunity to do what I love. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so much. Talk with you next week. Can I wait?

Stephen, can you tell me a personal story in relation to your dad where he taught you some of these principles from Seven Habits? Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I'll tell you one that's kind of well known within the Seven Habits world, and that's the idea of green and clean. And the whole, here's the premise is my, I was always a, young boy. You wrote about this in Speed of Trust, right? What about it in the speed? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, go ahead.

Yeah. About it in seven habits. Yeah. And the long story made short is, I was a seven-year-old boy, and he was trying to teach me how to take care of our, of our yard, our lawn. And this was, you know, 50-something years ago. So back then, we didn't have automatic sprinklers. We had this big lawn. We had to manually turn the sprinklers on. And as a seven-year-old, he comes to me and says, son, your job is green and clean. And he goes, here's what I mean. Green is the color of our neighbor's yard.

And he said, I want our yard to be green like there's is. And then he said, clean means that the lawn looks clean. And he cleaned up part of our yard. And he said, that's what we're after, green and clean. And he taught me this, you know, for over a two-week period of time, he kind of trained me, green and clean. And so after two weeks, he then turns it over. He says, okay, you're ready, son?

and he goes, here's the thing is we'll walk around once a week to see how we're doing, but it's your responsibility. How you get green and clean is up to you. All I care about is the result. If you want to turn the sprinklers on, that's great. But if you want to just use buckets or a hose or spit all day long, you can do it as long as the lawn is green and clean. So he turns it over to me.

And then it was in the middle of the summer, and it's scorching hot. And the first day goes by, I do nothing. Next day, nothing, next day, nothing, next day, nothing, next day, nothing. It's been five days. I've done nothing. The lawn is turning yellow. It's a hundred degree temperature. And there's, you know, we had a big barbecue over the weekend.

There's garbage strewn throughout. It's anything but green and clean. And my dad comes home from work and he's just, he's embarrassed, you know, the lawn is yellow and green. And I'm sure he was probably thinking, he's too young. He's seven. He can't handle this. and so he said to me, hey, why don't we walk around

and see how we're doing like we agreed we'd do once a week. So we started to walk around and I began to break down and cry. And I said, Dad, this is just so hard. And he said, what's hard, son? You haven't done one thing. I'll tell you it.

It was hard right. Was me learning to take responsibility, taking this job on, owning it. And he said, I said, well, Dad, it's so hard on, and this garbage, it makes me sick. And he said, well, want me to help you? And I said, would you help?

He said, what was our agreement? And I said, well, you told me that you'd help me if you ever had time. That's right. Do you have time, Dad? I've got time. So I ran in the house and I came out with two garbage sacks. I took one, I gave one to him. And then I started instructing him and said, Dad, would you go over there and pick up that

garbage? Because that makes me sick. And so he goes, sure, I'm your helper. do it. He started to do it. And I began to realize, wait, I'm telling him what to do. He's my helper. I'm the boss. And as a seven-year-old boy, he began to realize that I'm responsible. And from that moment on, I took over that job. And the lawn was green and it was clean. And my father would use the story to teach, you know, stewardship delegation and win-win agreements. And it was all of those things. But I was a seven-year-old boy. I didn't know what stewardship delegation meant. I didn't know

what a win-win agreement was. But here's what I knew as a seven-year-old. I felt trusted. I felt my father trusted me. I didn't want to let him down. And I responded to that trust. I rose the occasion and became accountable, became responsible. It brought out the best of me. So, I learned trust from my father because he trusted me. And it was a win-win agreement. He set it up to be clear expectations, accountability, green and clean. And he extended the trust. At first I faltered, but he stayed with it.

And I responded to it. And I rose to the occasion. And I took over that job and the lawn was green and clean. And so I use it as a great illustration of the power of trust. the power of being trusted and what it does to people. It did it to me as a seven-year-old. Imagine what it could do to each of us as a 27-year-old or a 57-year-old or a 77-year-old. We all respond to being trusted.

And I did. I learned it from my father. That's a great story. I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. Really good. Really good. I'll be sure to follow up with you and your team when this is ready to go live.

man, but I'm so appreciative. Thanks so much for doing this. I can see why you're doing this full time. You're doing a great service and I'm sure and I've seen the caliber of your guests. Yeah. And you build it. You are building a brand and a reputation. Thank you.

That can be trusted to bring high quality thinking insight. So you are the Warren Buffett yourself. Well, thank you for the kind words, man. It means a lot, especially coming from someone like you. I'm just trying to be consistent and show up every day and ask good questions and even better follow up questions and follow what makes me curious and the people who have helped me. And obviously, you didn't know, you didn't know that you were one of those for me, but you are. And your dad and your family. So I'm just appreciative to get a chance to actually develop a relationship and keep it rolling.

You know, I don't want this to be the last time we talk either, you know. I look forward to that. Thank you so much. Thank you. I want to put a meet. Yeah. Let's stay connected. Absolutely.

Thanks, Stephen. Thank you, my friend. Bye.