The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 370: Steve Herz - Don't Take Yes For An Answer

Episode Date: June 14, 2020

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk Text LEARNERS to 44222 For full show notes, go to www.LearningLeader.com #370: Steve Herz: Don't Take Yes For An Answer Notes: Sustaining excellence = Curiosity - Genuine interest A desire to learn and grow Finding uncommon commonalities: His parents went to Ohio University (which is where I graduated) Do your homework prior to meeting someone (as Steve did on me) Be actionable and intentional Meet someone on their turf. ACKNOWLEDGE them. Turner Smith: "Don't Take Yes For An Answer" -- Beware of the counter-fit yes. They are not helpful. "Don't live in an echo chamber of Yes." Seek feedback - Turner Smith not only didn't give Steve an offer... He gave him specific feedback as to why. Changed his life. Tough love with kindness Read the book: Seabiscuit. Knowing when to use carrots vs. sticks. Taking his shot with Alfred Geller - "I met him in a elevator and only had a few seconds. I asked to work with him... He said, 'meet me in my office at 8:00am tomorrow.'" "I downloaded his brain." "You need to perfect your A. W. E." Authority Warmth Energy John Kasich didn't use his voice properly. "Change your voice, change your life." Mid-level manager advice: "Act like you've been there before (like Barry Sanders)." Internalize it. "When you're walking your dog, who is walking who?" Providing feedback to his clients: "Joe Tessitore couldn't figure out how to modulate his voice." Don't get into the "vortex of mediocrity:" The most painful thing in the world is unfulfilled potential. Find the people who are able to give you critical feedback and listen. When he started his company, he called it IF after Rudyard Kipling's poem by the same name which says, "If you can dream-- and not make dreams your master… yours is the Earth and everything that's in it." We are ALL in sales: Steven Shapiro, member of the board of overseers of University of Pennsylvania Law School, "We have a saying at the firm: You can buy a pound of brains at the butcher. I walk through the halls of the university, and there are many brilliant future lawyers. But they can't look you in the eye in the hallway. In 15 years, this person may be writing law on the tax code, but they're probably not going to have a lot of clients." You know where lawyers, or salespeople, or consultants go when they don't bring in business? Neither do I. Because you rarely hear about them ever again."

You got to be smart enough to understand that you're living in an echo chamber of yes, that if you don't seek out a no or a hey, can I do better, then you're not going to get better. I mean, I know you do a lot of public speaking, and it's great to hear, and I saw it on your website. This guy was the best speaker we've had in the last 25 years, and maybe you were. Or maybe you weren't. I don't know. But you should still seek out and ask that organization, give me one thing you think I could have done better. One thing.

And even if you were great already, it doesn't hurt to become. even greater. And so I think a lot of people have lost that mechanism in their life to even recognize how to avoid that echo chamber of yes. Over the past nine months, I've been developing a new online learning tool called the Learning Leader Academy. It's been carefully designed to help you become a more effective leader. The content is a combination of what I've learned from the past five years worth of conversations with more than 350 of the world's most effective leaders, as well as lessons learned from my own experience leading teams. With that said, the content will not be the best part. We are building an online community of learning leaders who will have access to the following.

The initial 30 lessons I sat side by side with my dad, my greatest mentor in my life, and we spoke through 30 different leadership topics. In addition to seeing all of those videos, you will receive a playbook, a manual to take what you've learned via the videos and put it into action. Additionally, we'll have live calls on Zoom with me and other members of the Academy.

There'll also be a private forum for members only for you to discuss the challenges of your personal leadership journey with the other growth-oriented leaders to lean on for advice, feedback, and general conversation. And every once in a while, there will be a special live session via Zoom where I will bring on a guest, a previous podcast guest that I've had on my show that you can speak to directly. The initial people who sign up for the first cohort will receive a number of benefits that later adopters will not get. For more details, go to ryanhawk.

dot me. That's Ryanhawk. That's Ryanhawk.com. and sign up today. Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show, presented by Brixie and Meyer. I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text learners to 44222.

In order to join tens of thousands of learning leaders from all over the world, receive mindful Monday updates what I'm reading, writing, watching, thinking about. Also give you more details about how my book, welcome to management, will help you become a more effective leader, text learners to 44222. Now, on a night's feature leader to the great Steve Hurs, president of the Montag Group,

a sports and entertainment, talent, and marketing consultancy. Prior to joining TMG, Steve was the president and founding partner of If Management, an industry leader whose broadcasting division became one of the largest in the space representing over 200 television and radio personalities. He's also the author of a new book titled Don't Take Yes for an Answer. A few of the topics we discussed. Steve shared how different actions, words, body language, and habits will help you win clients and get promoted. And then how to avoid being stuck in the vortex of mediocrity.

and then what you can learn about executive presence from Barry Sanders. Ladies and gentlemen, it's so good with Steve Hers. All right, let's bring him in. Steve Hertz, it's so good to see you and have you here on the Learning Leader Show. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Really excited to be here, Ryan. We were chatting before we hit record and there's a lot to get to.

I know we're not going to cover everything, but I'm excited for this one because you have, you've written a really interesting book and have lived. and still a short number of years of fascinating life, Steve. So I'm curious, so before we get started with anything else, you know I love studying people who have found a way to sustain excellence over an extended period of time. I'm curious from your perspective,

what have you found to be some of the commonalities among people who have sustained excellence? I think it really comes down to one word is curiosity, because underneath curiosity is interest and underneath interest is a desire to learn and desiring to learn is what is the foundation of growth. And I think anybody who has sustained excellence cannot do anything but grow. You have to grow your business.

You have to grow individually. You have to grow your organization. And you have to grow as a person and grow with the marketplace wherever that's going to take you. And so I think that the root of it all is an interest in something, an interest in somebody else.

And that root is curiosity. And you actually said to me, earlier when we were talking, we said, I'm curious. What do you think? You kept saying, I'm curious. And it just belies how you are as a person. And I don't know you well, but I'm sure that your curiosity has fueled almost everything that you've achieved. I think it's curiosity, intentionality. I've written about this are the twin pistons of growth, in my opinion. So being thoughtful and curious about topics and then taking action with intention, I believe leads to growth, leads to performance, leads to consistency over time.

So I love to hear you say that. When you say the word curious, you're really speaking my language, Steve. I'm curious, though, I can't help if I say it. Sorry, I've been to feel weird saying the rest of the time. But I am, is there a person or two that comes to mind that you're thinking, that person embodies excellence to me? That person has lived a life of excellence, that whether you study them, but they could be a friend of yours, even a family member.

I'm wondering about that. Honestly, there's so many people. In fact, I heard you say that your dad was your hero and your leadership role model. And he was my dad was mine too. But so was my mother. My mother was always reading. She's a passionate reader. I have two older brothers that are always learning and growing and do interesting things.

I have a sister. Same way, aunts, uncles, cousins, friends. I've been very lucky. I am a product of the culture that I was raised in. And the university I went to Michigan and was around all these people that just had tremendous, like you say, curiosity, intentionality, life goals. Almost every person I know that I went to college, whether even high school or law school, I can't tell you one person who's not really successful. And I think that's a combination of just all, like you say, just people have a growth mindset. that intentionality yeah Steve right when we connected I'm gonna bring some of the kind of

all fair stuff on on air right when we connected I felt like you am because you've written this book and I have a ton of notes based upon the book and other things online and three key components you use the acronym awe which is awee authority warmth and energy and the instant we connected you started embodying those to me specifically I would say the warmth and energy part because you found an uncommon common commonality between me and you and the fact that your parents met where I went to college. And that to me showed that you have done your preparation. You did some work leading up to this, which is quite frankly rare.

And I thought, wow, he's embodying and showing and living what he's really practicing what he preaches in the book instantly. And I just had to, I want to acknowledge that and make sure that, you know, like, I felt that and that's probably a big portion or reason for why you've been successful in your business. Can you share a little bit about your process to prepare when you are meeting somebody and how you're finding these uncommon common commonalities to make us feel close from the jump? Well, thank you. I think it's fun, honestly. I just think it's fun to find out things about people that you may have in common. them that are unexpected. You know, my dad grew up in New York and famously went to the wrong college.

He didn't know anything. My grandparents were immigrants and he thought he was going to Ohio State University from Hempstead, Long Island in 1956 and ended up in Athens, Ohio, as you know, very different places. And it's been kind of a funny story in the family folklore for all these years. And he met my mom his freshman year and that's the only reason he stayed at Ohio, you instead of transferring to Ohio State and they got married and they've been they're celebrating their 60th wedding anniversary in a few months here. And so I just think it's really fun to connect with someone on that level. And then you could talk about something. Maybe I'll learn something from you about how did you go to Ohio you? Why did you choose that school? Where are you from? What else could I

learn from you? And then you end up having a fun time with that person and you learn something. So for me, it just comes natural. And that's how I prepare. I'll do my homework on someone, of course and get the business part down to learn what I need to know about their business or their business interests. But then the fun part is, hey, how can I learn this little anecdote that's going to kind of throw them off guard a little bit? What do you mean? Your parents met at OU?

Like, how's that possible? New York kid. Nobody goes to OU from Long Island or they didn't in 1956. And so I just think it's cool. And so I have fun with it. It did. It caught me off guard, but I did feel an instant connection with you, which is not always the case. I'm curious for the person listening or watching who is thinking about, wait

a second, like, how can I do that? What does Steve's process? I'm guessing now it's just an intuitive way that you behave, that if you know you're going to meet somebody or you're doing an interview or whatever, maybe you have a process in order to try to probably find some sort of uncommon common commonality. So what is that? Can you share what that is and maybe how others could do the same? Sure. Like you said, I think it just becomes, to your school of thought, which I've learned already from you just by doing my research on you, you talk about being actionable and intentional in your life. And so I think that once you create a habit, if you want to call it, you call it intuitive, or call it a habit, is to try to really meet someone on their turf in some

respect. And you also use the word acknowledgement before, which I think is a very powerful word, that you're acknowledging someone else's existence. Look, we all want to be seen in this world. And some of us show that in different ways. Some very healthy, some other, some not healthy. And so we don't want to be invisible to the world around us. And I think if you can take the time to just let someone know, hey, you're not invisible to me.

I see you. I feel you. I hear you. Even something tiny, like in my book I talk about, I have this little game that I play with myself. It's fun. You may like it, which is if I'm one, walking down the street, going to lunch or wherever, and I happen to see someone with a sweatshirt

or a t-shirt or a hat with a university on it, I've had this habit of memorizing not every university, but pretty much almost any university in the country, I can tell you their team nickname or I used to be able to. So if I'll see someone coming down the street and they'll have a UCLA hat, I'll say, go Bruins, and then they'll think I went to UCLA or they'll connect with me. Or obviously, Michigan, go blue, USC, fight on, Texas, hook them, you know, Texas A&M, gig them, whatever. it is. Ohio State, go to hell. You know, I'm kidding. Do you do an O.H or what? You know, go Bobcats for OU. And you should see people light up. They light up. They're so happy that, you know, I live in New York City or I have been until the pandemic. And you're walking down,

you know, 53rd Street and some random stranger walks by you with a USC shirt and you say fight on. And they're so happy. There's another USC fan or someone who knows about USC on the street. And they give you the great thumbs up where they smile at you. And it just kind of brightens the world a little bit. And by the way, I feel happier. And that's great too. I love it. So I want to get into some of the work that you published.

And your book even has one of those kind of counterintuitive titles. Don't take yes for an answer. I remember when your team reached out about the book and I thought, it made me do that thing what you can see me doing right now, turning my head a little bit, thinking like, what does he mean by that? And I almost wanted to immediately dive in and be like, what is Steve talking about? Is this just like a clickbait type title or no, what does he mean? And then till I dug in, which it then got me to dig into it.

And I started reading about a guy named Turner Smith. And I love for you to share the value that Turner Smith brought to your life. Yeah, it's crazy. So, you know, don't take yes for an answer is an idea that. It's a metaphorical idea that the world is largely giving you a yes. You're okay. You know what, Ryan, you're great. You're great.

Steve's great. Everyone's great. Everyone's doing fine. And we kind of live in this no judgment's world. Like, who am I to judge you? And that's fine. But for you, your life, you're the one that needs to look in the mirror and say that yes is a fake yes.

I call it in the book a counterfeit yes. I kind of took a term from a guy named Christopher Voss, who wrote a great book himself. and talks about this counterfeit yes idea. And so you've got to be smart enough to understand that you're living in an echo chamber of yes, that if you don't seek out a no or a, hey, can I do better, then you're not going to get better. I mean, I know you do a lot of public speaking,

and it's great to hear, and I saw it on your website. This guy was the best speaker we've had in the last 25 years, and maybe you were. Or maybe you weren't. I don't know. But you should still seek out and ask that organization, give me one thing you think I could have done better. one thing. And even if you were great already, it doesn't hurt to become even greater. And so I think a

lot of people have lost that mechanism in their life to even recognize how to avoid that echo chamber of yes. And that's where I get the title from. And if you want me to go into Turner Smith, specifically, I'm happy to do that. I would, to hit on that, when I asked about the commonalities of people who have sustained excellence and you have this desire to learn and this curiosity, The other, I would say add-on to that, Steve, and I do want to talk about Turner Smith in second, but the add-on to that is that they all seem to have some sort of a coach or a board of advisors, a personal board of advisors to give them critical feedback. And that, I think, is so in line with your message because, don't get me wrong,

it does feel good after a speech when someone says it's the best one I've heard in 25 years coming to this conference. It certainly felt good. I was happy the guy put it on tape. loved it. With that said, I also videotaped the entire thing and sent it to a coach that I pay. I pay out of pocket for the coach to give me critical feedback. I don't need him to tell me how awesome I am. I need him to tell me, why did you open that way? We've rehearsed that. We worked on that and yet did you get nervous? What happened? Or that transition from the third to the fourth story, what happened there? Why? We need to work on that. That stuff is the goal.

that's what we really want is that feedback from the person that we're willing to pay out of pocket to say this is how I get better and better. Exactly. Like I'm not going to lie. Like I said, I do like the feedback that's good, but I love the feedback that's tough and that's critical because that's how you get better and better. And for you, one of those people, and there's others, but one of those people is Turner Smith. And you were in your formative years when you met him.

And can you share why he was so impactful for you? Sure. I will. I just want to say also that it's so great to hear you speak the way you do, but it also kind of fits a pattern that I've seen in this world that people who come from an athletic background, especially a high-level athletic background that you come from, are a custom demanding of, for the most part, this kind of feedback. And it wouldn't seem at all abnormal to you to have a coach who would take a great performance like you gave, best speech that guy has heard in 25 years,

and still rip it apart just the way a football coach would rip you apart, even if you went and threw 25 out of 35 and through three touchdown passes, they'd be looking at what about the 10 you missed? And why did you miss that receiver on that one? And so you have the mindset of don't take yes for an answer already, but most people don't. And now when it comes to Turner Smith, he had a very profound impact on my life.

And he shaped my thinking in two ways. One, what happened was in the summer of 1990, I was working at this law firm, Curtis Malay-Privo, on Park Avenue in New York City. And I was going to my last year at Vanderbilt Law School. And it's a big thing because in your second year, you line yourself up for the post-school job. And most of the great jobs are taken by the end of that second summer because that's how the firm's hire. So at the end of the summer, they brought in all 30 kids who are expecting to get an offer, hoping to get an offer. And I was the last one to go.

29 people went. I was 30. And by the time I went, news had traveled around that everybody before me had gotten an offer. So I thought, okay, this is a lock, right? And what happened was is Turner Smith closed the door. And in the book, I kind of paint a picture. He's a very, very courtly guy. He's a total gentleman, not a jerk at all. And he sits me down and he says, look, we stress if we don't give someone an offer. It's a big deal. We know we're putting a black mark on someone's record. And so we think about it and we go back and forth and we hem in Hawth. In your case, it was very easy. We're not giving you an offer. And I don't even think you should practice law. I think that this is probably not the right field for you. And I think that you should consider dropping out of law school. And what I would recommend is try to come back here, go start a business, come back here in 10 years and come back as a client.

And I think you're a very talented guy with a lot of skills and abilities, but this isn't one of them. And man, I was 24 years old, and it's like taking a punch to the gut when you're not looking. And it really threw my world upside down. But after thinking about it, the rest of that day and week and going back, I did finish Vanderbilt. I realized he was right. He had done the most incredibly decent thing a person can do. He didn't give me yes for an answer. He could have lied to me with a little white lie and done, you know, what I call the George Costanza thing.

It's not you, it's me. you, but we only had room for 29. We stressed about it, you know, could have said all that stuff. And I would have gone back to law school, feeling discouraged, but also encouraged at the same time. But instead, he didn't do that. And he changed the entire course of my life. So I think it not only informed me in terms of taking feedback and getting it, but also how I wanted to treat other people in a similar situation. And I tried as an agent, I have tried over the last 30 years, there's an age of 29, 28 years to try to give my clients and my colleagues, and I know, you know, Gideon a little bit, that same level of respect that Turner Smith gave me,

because what he really did is he respected me as a person. And he actually believed in me in a roundabout way. And the postscript to that story, which I think you may find interesting, is that I never spoke to him again. That was the end of our relationship until February, when I got the manuscript back for the book and I decided to send him an email and tell him that he was a big part of this book 30 years later and he wrote me back one of the most beautiful notes

I've ever gotten and we ended up having lunch a few weeks later in early March before the pandemic he took me to the Yale Club and it was as if 30 years had gone by in a flash he remembered almost everything not exactly as I had and he couldn't have been nicer And the only funny thing was that I'm 53 now and he's 63.

So he was only 33 at the time. I thought he was already 60 back then. He seemed larger than life. So it was just kind of funny. Those people that it shows you the impact as leaders that we can have on people. And it's more than we may even realize. And my friend Brooke Cups, he's a basketball coach. And he's remarkable, remarkable leader, teaches a leadership class in school as

well. And he said, you are being selfish if you're not willing to tell one of your teammates when he has messed up or when he has made a mistake. That is selfish because you're taking the easy route. It's much easier not to say anything. It would have been much easier, like you said, for Turner to be like, oh, you know, good try, just not quite enough. But, you know, you got a shot. Keep at it, Steve. Keep at it, man. You know, instead, he had the guts. And he was unselfish enough because he was selfless because he cared more about you than his own feelings to tell you the truth. And that changed the trajectory of your entire life. I think as leaders, that's something for all of us to think about.

Maybe you can expand on this for those people who are listening, who are in leadership positions, when they may skirt a little bit away from and shy away from telling people the truth because they're worried about maybe they won't like me or this will harm our relationship. whereas actually I think it has the opportunity to really strengthen the relationship if you're giving them thoughtful, honest feedback with the intention of trying to help them. Well, I totally agree with you. And I think if you think about what Turner Smith did, is that he really treated me with tough love.

And at the root of that, though, and I know it's a weird thing to say because he didn't know me that well, but I'll use the term metaphorically, he really treated me with the kindness of a person that would seem to care much more about me than he should have at the time because who was I? I was one of 30 kids he would never see again, maybe. And at the end of the day,

that's what needs to be there for a good leader. You can't just, I don't think, like, Mother F somebody and say, you messed up. I think you have to really try to meet people where they are. And you have to understand what their emotional state is, what they're going to respond to and how they're going to best grow from it. Like, again, going back to your word, you want to be actionable. You want to tell someone, hey, you didn't do that right, only if it can figure out a way to make them improve.

One of my favorite books I've ever read is Seabiscuit. If you ever read it, it's a tremendous book by Laura Hillenbrandt. And one of the lessons I took away, I probably read it about 15 years ago, was that she talks about how Tom Smith was this great trainer. And he understood which horses responded to carrots and which ones responded to sticks. And I think that's what a great leader is, is knowing that. that if you have a guy who's going to mess up and you don't get in his face and you're kind to him and you're too soft and he doesn't improve, that's not the way to treat him. If you have someone the other way, you got to be that way. And that takes really learning and trying to dig deep and understanding the people who are on your team, whether it's a business or a sports team.

One of the next people that you encountered in your life that had a profound impact was a guy named Alfred Geller. Am I pronouncing that right? You got it, man. You get all the highlights. Alfred Geller because, well, I think the who of our lives are everything. And so when I read someone's book and find some of the names, I'm going to pull out those names and I want to hear those stories because those are real life. And I think all of us as learners here watching and listening, we can get a sense for

how this could impact our lives or how maybe we have a similar Turner Smith that we think about or an Alfred Geller. And so I believe you met him at least maybe the second time on an elevator and you had a few seconds to catch us attention. But can you take us inside that story and the impact and your learnings from him? Sure, sure. So I was, you know, after the whole debacle, so to speak, with Turner Smith and Curtis Melle, I moved back to New York from Nashville a year later and slowly but surely made

my way into the talent business, became a TV agent for sports and newscasters. And now we're into 1995. So it's a full five years after the Turner Smith thing. And I'm working at a company called RLR Associates. And by all accounts, doing really well, making probably bigger salary that I ever thought I would at that point. And one day, I get sick. I don't know what's the flu or a cold or whatever. And I wake up and I don't go to work. And I just have this kind of gestalt, like this life moment, a flash, if you will, where I realized my life is not going the way I wanted to go, even though I'm in a good job, making a good salary. And I called up the owner of the company, Bob Rosen, and I just quit. And he was stunned. And he had recruited me away from this other agency

only maybe a year and a half earlier. But I just realized this was not what I wanted to do. I didn't feel like his philosophy was aligned with mine. Not to say he's a bad guy at all. He was in many ways a very good person, but his business philosophies in mind were not aligned. And I just thought it was too transactional in nature. It wasn't enough like, it was more about how much are we going to get for each entree rather than how much are we going to spend time cooking the right meal and learning about the ingredients, so to speak. And I felt empty, honestly, and I just quit. And I decided I wanted to go start my own business, but I didn't know what I was doing, frankly. And the next day, there was a new gym that opened up right around the corner from where I was living. It was called the Reebok

sports club, 67th in Columbus in Manhattan. Very nice gym. And I walked over there and I get in the elevator and the elevator doors open and this gigantic man who you would not expect to see in a gym walks into the elevator. And he, this guy named Alfred Geller. And I'd met him a few months earlier. He was a big TV agent, news agent. At the time, he had some giant clients like Al Roker and Connie Chong, who was the then the anchor at the CBS Evening News, Mori Povich, etc. And I, and I, I recognized him and I made an elevator pitch, for lack of a better word. I just, I don't know what hit me. I just decided I didn't expect to see him.

And in that moment, I just, everything kind of crystallized for me. I said, okay, I want to start my own business. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm only 29. I have no infrastructure. I really don't know that much about the industry or running a business. Here comes Alfred Geller. I'll just be his partner.

And boom, I gave him the sales pitch on the elevator. I said, I said, Mr. Geller, my name is Steve Hurs. we met in this conference a few months ago, and I just left my job at RLR. I really know a ton about sports and now the sports media business. I know you don't represent any sportscasters, but you're one of the biggest in the news business.

Why don't we start a business together? I'll represent the clients. You'll teach me how to do it. Let's do it. And he was just, I think, stunned. Who is this guy? What's he talking about? And he turns to me, the elevator door opens up.

It's only two floors, by the way, from the ground to the top there. But you can't get there any other. the way. I don't want people to think I'm lazy going to the gym. There's no other way to get to the main entrance there. And he says to me, be in my office tomorrow morning at 8 a.m. That's all he said to me. And he hands me his business card. And I call his assistant. Maybe he also said call my assistant. And the next morning, I showed up at his office. And for the next, almost year, I downloaded that man's brain. I learned everything humanly possible about communication because

He was obsessed with it. He was obsessed with what makes a good communicator. And he had hours and hours and hours and tons of tapes and audio, video, and studying communication and why someone's compelling. And I really learned a lot of what is in that book. I learned from him, or at least the beginnings of it. Well, we'll focus on some of the, I think, practical application from the book. So you said you need to perfect your awe, A-W-E, which I mentioned a little bit earlier,

and we'll dig into each of the three and the importance of them and maybe some practical application from those three. A stands for authority. W stands for warmth. E stands for energy. And so let's start with authority. And there's three aspects of each of these of A-W-E, authoritative voice, authoritative body language, and authoritative presence. from a communication perspective, can you explain and perhaps unpack what that means from an authoritative voice, body language, and presence perspective? Sure. I think first and foremost, your voice is, I think it's the most underrated aspect of the

impression you make on other people. And the bottom line is that a lot of people lose their authority from the very beginning because they speak in an artificially high pitch, right? Or they lose their authority because they use a lot of filler words and they hem, they ha, they cover their mouth when they speak. They don't look you in the eye when they speak. And so I know this kind of gets into presence a little bit, so forgive me if these bleed into each other.

But just in terms of voice, you have a great voice. You have a lot of resonance to your voice. You have an authoritative air about yourself. You have a good pitch level. But a lot of people don't. And so they're not going to reach their potential in terms of garnering the respect and the competency that they deserve based on who they are and what their substantive qualities are because they've already lost part of the argument by opening their mouth. Does that make sense? Yes.

What about the person who perhaps wasn't born with a good voice? How can they improve this? how can they get better? I hope that, you know, we have some, we have some ideas for that person. All of, all of what I'm saying in this book is,

look, you are, to some extent, you're born with certain gifts and certain weaknesses. We all are. But this book is not about you becoming the next James Earl Jones

with your voice. This is about you. If you have an issue with your voice that's losing the day for you, it could just either be a bad habit. Like I think, for example, I maybe mention this,

in the book too, is that the former governor of Ohio, John Kasich, I think he really lost a lot of opportunity when he was running for president, even though I thought he was the most qualified guy on paper by almost every measure because he didn't have, he didn't use his voice properly. And so the way that you improve it is to figure out what are you doing wrong, first of all, or what could you improve upon? But if it is something like the resonance of your voice or the pitch of your voice, I talk about an amazing book that I've given the client's over the years called Change Your Voice, Change Your Life by Dr. Mort Cooper. And we've had a multitude of clients who've improved through that or honestly, just

learning how to breathe properly and learning how to, you know, push the air out of their mouth in a certain way that so their breath and their voice is supported properly. And, you know, it shocks me is you have people who've gone to Syracuse, Newhouse School Communications and they want to be broadcasters and they don't even know what the instrument is that they have, which is their voice. And you contrast that with someone who, let's say, goes to Juilliard and wants to become a violinist in the New York Philharmonic. That person's going to know every last detail about the violin and how to use that instrument. But your voice is an instrument, a very valuable one.

If you were to be, if you were hired by John Kasich, what are some of the things you would have said to him to help him? I would say that he has, first of all, his, he has. has a bad habit of going too high-pitched when he gets excited. Oh, come on, fellas, if you remember, he would say that a lot. I think he also went for that come-on, fellas, aw-shucks routine. Like, he's in Mayberry, if you remember, you know, that. And I think he needed to air a little bit more on the side of authority.

You know, especially with Donald Trump, whose whole brand was authority. I'm the meanest, baddest guy in the room, and I'm not going to back down from anybody, Putin or anyone. And I think Kasich needed to understand that he needed to come across with a little more seriousness. And I think if he took a few voice lessons, it really would have helped him. So, but what if he's saying, Steve, you know, that's me. I'm trying to be authentic, which is, which is also important. That's, that's, you know, that's how I am. That's just, that's how I respond.

That's my voice. I think the people want authentic John Kasich. What would you say to that? I love this question because I totally disagree with the premise behind it, if you don't mind. No, I mean, it's the best part about podcasting. Go ahead. Yeah, yeah. No, and the reason I disagree with the premise is that I think that authenticity is something that a lot of people think that they have, but they really aren't authentic.

Because I think anyone who speaks in a repeatable pattern like John Kasich did during the primary, during the run up to the, you know, the debates and in the, debates is not being authentic. If you have the same reaction all the time, then that's not authentic. I think you're defaulting. I use this term default, like computer defaults, you're defaulting to what you feel comfortable. That's what's safe to him. And that's not authentic. And I also think that if habitually, remember when we're talking about habits, if habitually you tend to just go to a high-pitched response because that's what you maybe developed as a kid because maybe you were the youngest child or the oldest child or whatever it is,

you were the biggest kid and didn't want to intimidate people or whatever the psychological reason is, I don't think that's authentic either. I think that's just who you've become. And I'm challenging you to think about those things. And look, ultimately, if John Kasich could lower his pitch a little bit, I don't think that that would have any impact whatsoever on the essence of who he is. How about we have it both ways? Yeah. So how about the authoritative body language and presence?

Well, again, I think in terms of the body language, it's just a lot of people don't stand up straight. They don't sit up straight. I always think about former president Bush 43 who walk like a cowboy, you know, and maybe that's a little bit extreme. But at the end of the day, there's a certain presence that's given off. The body language and the presence are very interconnected. And look, sometimes also authority, your presence comes with the ability to not say anything. to just look at someone. I mean, you know the value as you were a quarterback.

Sometimes when you just stare down a quarterback who's hovering on the line of scrimmage is going to blitz you, you don't have to say anything, but just that ability not to back down and stare them down, that's a presence that's going to show them. I better respect this guy because he's going to pop me right on the line here. I got advice from a mentor. I'd be curious to hear what you think about this earlier in my career. and he said, I'm watching how you respond in meetings.

I was a mid-level manager and you still act like a young dude. You don't have executive presence yet because at times you react instead of respond. An executive presence has some sort of measured response as opposed to a reaction that could be emotional. And you need to think about that. You need to work on that. And there are a lot of people listening who are either leading meetings, or they're a part of meetings with executives or powerful people. And they ask questions of me of like,

how can I do better in those meetings? And I'm curious from thinking about this authoritative perspective and using awe for that mid-level manager who gets an opportunity maybe once a year with the senior execs at a quarterly business review, perhaps, what are some tips you would say to them to help them perform, I guess you could say, perform better in those meetings. So it's interesting that you bring this up because this came up last week. I was doing a coaching session for a wealth management firm.

And there was a woman who actually was the leader of the team. She's 52, 53 years old, same age as me. And she asked this very question. And she also asked in relation to there were some younger people on her team in their 20s and early 30s who were dealing with what she called the gray haired. You know, the people that they have maybe millions of dollars under management with the firm. And this 20 or 30-year-old sometimes has to deal with a 65, 70-year-old person. And I said, you'll appreciate this, I hope, as a football player, that I said that they needed to have a different mindset.

And I use the Barry Sanders example, which is, you probably know this, Barry Sanders, when he scored a touchdown, he never ever celebrated. He would just hand the ball to the referee. Same thing with Marvin and Harrison. And when they asked Barry Sanders about that, I think his comment was, you've got to act like you've been there before. And I think that's true of this person you're talking about in middle management who's going to sit with the CEO or the person at the investment firm who's going to deal with the 70-year-old multimillionaire, is that if you internalize and you behaviorally act like you've been there before, then the other person is going to realize. or not realize that you don't belong there. And one of the things I try to coach with my own staff is, I think that when you think about certain problem-solving aspects of life,

whether it's why does someone hire an agent in the first place? Why do I go to the doctor? Why do, why does the senior manager call in the middle manager? It's because he wants you to solve the problem for him. He's got another 500 problems to deal with. On this particular issue, he's calling you in because he doesn't want to solve that problem. He's paying you and hiring you because you're going to be more granular. You're more on the front lines of the situation, and you've got to solve it.

So the way I've told people to think about it is think about it like you're walking a dog, right? And I know this is a crude metaphor, but try to bear with me for a moment, that when you see someone walking a dog, it's very binary. Either you see the dog walking the person and dragging them down the street. or you see the person walking the dog and telling them where to pee and poop and where to eat and all that. And the dog finds safety in knowing that the owner is in charge and he knows where the safe place to go is. And just like a child doesn't want you to, they don't want to tell you what time they should go to bed when they're four years old. They need you to tell them. They find the safety in that.

And I think a business owner who's calling it a middle manager who's got a million other things going on in his career, He finds safety in calling in Ryan Hawkins saying, Ryan, we got this problem in this division in Ohio. What do we do with the chemical plant or whatever it might be? And if you say, well, you know what, Joe, I've studied this, we got to divest ourselves because of the legal issues and the business is falling apart. And now's the time to get out. And you have to believe that because you've studied it. You know it better. And you're Barry Sanders.

You're handing the ball to the rep because you've been there before. You're the dog. I mean, you're the owner walking him and telling him what to do, but you got to internalize that. And if you can't internalize that, frankly, you don't belong in the job. And there's not, there shouldn't be one person listening to this call who doesn't do their job in a way better than their boss in certain aspects, not in every aspect, but in the certain things that they're primarily responsible for, they should have more authority. They should know more. And they should be able to speak with conviction. do you how do you do this at your place of work i'm curious for the people who report up to you

that it sounds like you empower your leaders in the people that work as part of your company to speak up is this is this part of the culture that you've built yes yes it's how does that work it just works like gideon cone who you know yeah will call text me email me for the last 21 years with everything that's ever on his mind about me and i wouldn't want it any other way he'll say Critical things about you? Critical things all the time. And Kevin Belby, who's worked for me, Jeff Feldman, Carol Perry, most of my team has been there for 15 plus years.

And they know I would be pissed off beyond belief if they thought something of me negatively and didn't tell me. And they don't hold back, which I love. And so part of your business, you represent sportscasters. And I'm the one thing, you know, my brother does that now, since he's stopped playing and works with your company. And one of the things I asked him, he's done games for Fox and many different networks.

And he asked other sportscasters is, what type of feedback do you get after a game? And I'm amazed at times that networks sometimes will never provide. I shouldn't say sometimes never. But you know what I mean? No, I got it. There are a lot of times these guys would perform for a national TV audience and get zero feedback.

from Fox or CBS or NBC or any of them that they just go on to the next one and I say well how do you know how you did and a lot of times they give you this puzzled look like I don't know and and that blows me away so I want to I don't think you you rep these guys if you do that would be weird but like for example Monday night football last year was kind of a disaster burger McFarlane and Joe Tessitator both seemed like great guys but just weren't very very good at the job. And I wondered, what type of feedback were they receiving? I know it's not like you can just all of a sudden get feedback and magically be better at a job that is really hard. But for your clients, are you studying the tape and then providing feedback after games on a regular basis? Or how does that work? Yes. We are. We are. And look, it depends on the client. You know, some of the clients I've had for, you know, 25 plus years. And then as they get older and get more success, it's less frequent. I mean, they don't need feedback after every game, but the ones that are earlier on in their careers and need it, we will give them feedback

sometimes after every game. But we try to be very specific and, to quote your word, intentional about the feedback and very actionable. But look, I don't know. I mean, I'll just talk about Joe Testator for a moment here. I know Joe a little bit. I've met him. He's a very nice guy, and he's had a great career. And I don't know. what feedback ESPN did or didn't give him. But to me, I wish I would have been able to, and I wasn't going to reach out to him because he's not my client. I wouldn't do that to another agent.

But I think he falls very much into the purview of my awe method, right? I think that Joe allowed himself to get too excited in the moment to not really understand how to modulate his energy. And I talk about this in the book, is that a lot of people think about energy as being an output thing, right? But the most important thing about energy is really how it's received by the person. And you can be a very high energy person as Joe is and end up deflating people around you, as I think, unfortunately, he did. And you could also contraryly be someone who's relatively low energy, but you're such a great listener and you're so attentive to others

that you're energizing the other person. And I think it's that ability to recognize how to modulate it, and how to adjust on the fly and understand to be in the moment. And I think maybe, look, in Joe's defense, maybe he got so excited by the moment of being on Monday night football that he just was like a kid in the candy store. That's how it came across. He's just like a kid to candy store who's 10 years old and so excited to be at a football game that he maintained that level of freneticism for three hours. And it just wasn't well received.

Yeah. One of the phrases you coined in the book is the vortex of mediocrity. And I think this could be, whether it's for a broadcaster or anybody, you could find yourself in that vortex of mediocrity. What are some of the signs that someone might be stuck there? It's a great question. And, you know, Joe Testatory is a challenging example of that because here's a guy that when he gets to Monday night football, ESPN is obviously anointed.

They think he's their best or certainly one of their best broadcasters. So he's certainly not at all by objective metrics in the vortex of mediocrity at that moment. So I think you have to kind of go back up and ask yourself, do I surround myself with the right people? Am I open to the kind of feedback that Ryan Hawk is open to? Even in the face of getting someone to say, that's the best speech I've heard in 25 years. Even in the face of that, you have someone that you trust and respect who's giving you actionable feedback that's going to keep you on a level where you're not going to fall in love with yourself, right? And in terms of the broader question of are you in the vortex of mediocrity? I just think that's a question that you should ask yourself, where am I in my life right now?

And where do I want to be? What do I think I'm capable of? And am I there? And honestly, when I started writing this book, I thought I was in the vortex of mediocrity. I was a little frustrated with my own life. And that's what drove me to say, hey, you know what? I've been giving this advice to people for the last 25 years. I've seen it work.

Like, don't hide it. If you think you've got something so valuable, take a shot. See if you can get a book deal. And luckily I did. Well, I think one of the questions you can ask yourself to help eliminate, get out of that potential vortex of mediocrity is one. is the last time I've received critical feedback. And if it's not recently, that's because me, I, that means I have not done a good enough job seeking it out.

I have not done a good job surrounding myself with people who are willing to be honest with me. And one of the things I like to train people when it comes to coaching is you have to think about your response before you get some of the critical feedback. Because let's say, you say, hey, Steve, I want you to, I want you to, I want you give me critical feedback on my interviewing skills. And then the instant you give me some critical feedback, I'm like, what are you talking about? No, no, no, no, you don't understand. Here's what I mean. Here's what I mean. And I get very defensive. What do you think Steve's going to do next time I ask for

feedback? You'd be like, hey, you're good job, bud. Have a good day. Good job. Right. Like, if I can't take it, if I prove to you that I can't accept it and I get defensive when I'm asking for feedback, that means, that means like, I don't, I'm not going to mess with that anymore. The person I'm asking for feedback is not going to continue to give it to me if I can't accept it. So if you're seeking that out, think about being intentional again, think about how am I going to respond when they tell me something that maybe it's painful to hear? When I'm getting coaching, how am I going to respond? But it shouldn't, I'm sorry to cut you off, but this is like at the crux of my book.

If there's nothing else to your audience thinks away from today, I pray for them that nothing is painful. The most painful thing in life, this is like a Bronx tale, it talks about like the saddest thing in life is the unfulfilled potential, right? And that's the saddest thing. So that's what's painful. If someone is sitting here listening to the show right now who's 30 years old and they're in middle management and they know they're in the vortex of mediocrity and they come back and listen to your show 10 years from now and they are still in the same place, that is deep pain to me. painful, painful. That's like a life that you could have been living, that you weren't. That's opportunity you lost, influence you lost.

And to me, that's the pain. The gift, the gift of life is finding yourself in an ecosystem where you have people who care enough about you. And you've welcomed that feedback. And think about you, for example, and this is just a hypothetical, but you're playing for the Birmingham Steel Dogs back in AFL2. And you really want to be, you know, in the NFL and you have this coach who just kills you. And he finds out, like you guys go through this really tough process. But he finds out that the real problem that you had is that you just had this really bad habit of not looking away receivers. And nobody saw that for whatever reason.

No scouts saw it. No college coach saw it. It didn't show up at OU. And boom, next thing you know, you're on an NFL roster. Like that is the gift of life, right? And again, I use that metaphorically. Yeah. No, it's so true.

And again, appreciate all your breath. Not many people could pull out the arena football days down to Birmingham. But it's so true. If I think about the leaders, the ones who are most memorable to me is they found a way to lift me to levels that I didn't even think I was capable of. and a lot of it was because they were willing to be critical of what I was doing. And that pushed me and made me better. There's one other element that you're forgetting, though. And I know maybe you're just trying to be humble.

But the only way that happens is because you opened the door to it. You showed them in your physicality, in your body language, in your being, in your presence, in your character, and your communication, hey, I want this. Please give it to me. because I'm telling you, there's another person on earth who's just like Ryan Hawk, who lived almost the identical life in so many ways, and they didn't get that same kind of valuable coaching, and they don't have a top 50 podcast in the country.

They don't have a speaking career like you. They don't have a business career like you, only because that's the one and only variable that was different. I appreciate that. Steve, there is a quote that I want to read from your book. That's from Stephen Shapiro. That reminds me a little bit of advice my dad gave me, and we still talk about. And I'd like you to expand on it after I explained it because every once in a while I'll speak with someone who thinks that they don't work in sales.

And anyone listening to this who thinks you don't work in sales, you are a thousand percent wrong. Every single person listening, this works in sales. And here is the quote from Stephen Shapiro, who's a member of the board of overseers of University of Pennsylvania Law School. He says, we have a saying at the firm, you can buy a pound of brains at the butcher. I walk through the halls of the university and there are many brilliant future lawyers, but they can't look you in the eye in the hallway. In 15 years, this person may be writing law on the tax code, but they're probably not going to have a lot of clients.

You know where lawyers or salespeople or consultants go when they don't bring in business, neither do I because you rarely hear about them ever again. And that paragraph, I think, is so useful for every single person listening to this right now, watching this right now, because you may think I work in a specific job that sales is not part of it. That's not true. Especially now when times are tough and maybe people are making cuts, if you, and I've talked to my person I've gone into business with Doug Meyer, who is an incredible businessman himself, if you find yourself worried, like, oh, am I going to get laid off? I promise you, if you're someone who brings in business, who brings in revenue, you will not get laid off. It just won't

happen. But if you find yourself away from that aspect of any business, yeah, I would worry a little bit. And so this is something that you've written about. I'd love to hear you expand on why this is so important, regardless of your role. I couldn't agree more. And I wanted to say that one of the great things about writing a book that I didn't know, which is an unexpected pleasure, is you get to meet and talk to so many fascinating people that you otherwise wouldn't get to meet in your life. And Stephen Shapiro was one of those guys.

And I sat down with him, not knowing anything about his background, just said he's a successful businessman. And he told me just an incredible story about how when he was, I think he was, I think he He was 10 or 11 years old. He was a really good athlete growing up, I think, in Brooklyn or somewhere in New York. And he got a cold or some kind of an illness. And his mother took him to the doctor. And the doctor felt his leg for some reason or saw that he had a lump on his leg.

And he said that two days later, he was in a hospital in Miami. And he had to have his leg amputated, I think from the knee down or right at the knee. and he went from being this great athlete, popular kid, to a kid who's going to spend the rest of his life with one leg. And he told me that in that moment, he knew that he was never going to be an athlete again, and he was never going to be able to get, I mean, remember this is going back 50 years, he wasn't going to get the girl anymore in a traditional way.

And he said that, I don't know if it was conscious or otherwise, but he became a great listener from that day forward. his popularity and his ability to fit in was he was he just became a great listener and he's risen to these leadership levels everywhere he is he's actually was the president of the school that my children go to just how I met him he's on the board of overseas of Penns of the university of Pennsylvania many other charities and he's you know was the president of his company for a long time and he's a very low-key guy he's not what you'd expect if you think about a salesman right but he wins with his brand of awe.

And he really has awe because he's an incredibly attentive guy. And he's an amazing listener. And he makes you feel so important when you're talking to him. When I was talking to him for the book, he somehow made me feel like he was interviewing me. And he took an interest beyond what I was doing, which was way beyond most of the other people did. And I could see in just a short time of an hour being with him

why the guy's so successful. And he also pointed out that because he doesn't talk that much and because he's such a great listener that when he speaks up, man, does he get respect? And it just shows you like hopefully with your people, when you're the people that you're coaching in your life and people that listen to this podcast understand that awe is not a one-size-fits-all approach. Somebody could lead with authority. Someone could lead with warmth.

Someone could lead with energy. And you can lead with energy in many different ways. but you have to have some of those elements or you will not end up with clients or customers or the trust of the people inside your organization and you'll be lacking influence. I think almost intuitively or from what we read, we realize the importance of becoming an attentive listener yet. And I took an improv class and we talked so much about listening and improv class. I was surprised.

and the teacher shared all these examples about why we're horrible at this. I feel like we know this, but then from the action side of things, we're not good at it. Why do you think, for the most part, in general, people are not good listeners? It's a great question. I think that, first of all, I also did a lot of improv training in the last few years and was pleasantly surprised by some of the same things you had. At the end of the day, I think it goes back to the root of the issue, I do talk about in the book is that when we get to kindergarten or nursery school, there are metrics

around these quote unquote soft skills of life, the awe qualities that I talk about. You will get on your report card. Ryan's a good listener. Ryan follows directions. Ryan gets along with other people, which is ultimately about listening and being able to interact. Ryan smiles a lot. He's a pleasure to having class, all those things. But then you get to first grade all the way through high school, college, graduate school,

it disappears off the report card. So we don't think, like, did you ever hear anybody studying for a listening test? You know? And so that's why I think it's ingrained in us, oh, well, I'm good enough at listening. I've been listening my whole life. And we also don't know how to properly listen because nobody taught us, right? Listen, you think about this, Ryan. If you took an improv class in seventh grade, and everybody you knew took an improv class in seventh grade

in your ecosystem. Don't you think your entire community of people would be much better listeners? It's a great point. And we have to practice. I think like anything else, you have to intentionally practice and do it and think about it and get feedback on it like everything else. Steve, I really appreciate your time investment today, man.

It was a joy to have the opportunity to learn directly from you. Where would you send my listeners to learn more about you online? I would just ask them to go to the website that we put up for the book. It's called www. steven, s-te-e-v-en-h-Hers-H-H-E-R-Z.com. So just that one website, Stephenhers.com, has information on all my social media channels where you can get a lot of good content and also how to buy the book if they want to buy the book.

But also, look, Ryan, the other thing we're trying to do here is we're trying to create a learning series in addition to the book. So there's a free authority prep guide that anybody can download by just going to the website. And then they'll get a follow-up email with an authority, a warm cheat sheet, an authority cheat sheet, and an energy cheat sheet. And if that's all they consume out of this,

look, I'd love you to buy a book. But if those of you who don't want to buy the book, just at least get the prep guide. It'll give you something for free that can get you on the right track. Yeah, I encourage people to get this book. And I appreciate your team sending me a copy to get the opportunity to read. because I think the types of books that impact me, like don't take yes for an answer because you've found a way to weave personal, real, practical stories with then the ideas for you,

the reader, to take action based upon the learnings from your experiences and science, too, to back that up with some of the research you did. So, Steve, it's a fantastic work. and thank you so much for being. I'd love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. I would love to also. I really enjoyed this. So let's connect offline and keep the relationship going.

This has been amazing. Thank you so much. I love what you do. Oh, thank you, man. I appreciate that and talk to you soon. All right. Thanks, Ryan. Wow, what a thoughtful and overly prepared professional.

Steve Hertz. What a good guy. I thoroughly enjoyed the fact that he took this seriously finding some uncommon common commonalities before we connected to record this one. And it made it so much better. And I thought that was a point for us to think about and remember, as we're preparing to meet people, do some homework. Do some work ahead of time to find some interesting aspects out about the person you're

about to meet. It will create some warmth, which is. as part of the A-W-E that Steve talks about, authority, warmth, and energy. Perfecting that is how we stay out of the vortex of mediocrity. And then who is your Turner Smith? Who's the person in your life who's willing to tell you the unvarned truth in order to help you? And who are you doing that for as the mentor? I think it's good for us to think about doing that in both ways.

Once again, I want to thank you for continuing to spread the word. I'd love it if you'd share this one, perhaps with a friend who has never listened to the Learning Leaders Show before and how this one was Steve Hurst could be very useful. Because you continue to do that, you give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so much. Talk with you soon. Can't wait.