The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 383: Guy Raz - 383: Guy Raz - How To Ask Questions, Tell A Story, & Build A Career You Love

Episode Date: September 13, 2020

Text LEARNERS to 44222 Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk #383: Guy Raz - How I Built This Excellence = Ambition Desire to produce for the sake of personal fulfillment -- "It's oxygen" Bill Gates is constantly challenging himself... Having a growth mindset. "To survive means to grow." How has Guy become one of the greatest interviewers in the world? "I've been shooting free throws for 25 years. I've gotten a lot of reps." To be great, you have to be bad at the beginning... And keep going. How to connect with others? "I interpret the non-verbal feedback." Purposeful Practice: It's a team effort -- "I've worked with my team for twenty years. There is a strong bond and connection. They are very honest with their feedback. Constructive criticism is essential. We need outsiders to assess us." Guy thanks his mom and dad in the acknowledgement section of his book: They came to America in the 1970's. "Being courageous requires resilience." Guy has covered four wars, but he still doesn't feel he's as courageous as his parents. "Without taking a risk there is no reward." When Guy is afraid to take a risk, he thinks of his parents. How his fellowship year at Harvard impacted him: They teach through case studies and stories. It helped him understand business and storytelling. Guy is inspired by Joseph Campbell's hero's journey... His 'Must-Have' qualities to get hired to work on his team: Kindness - "We filter for kindness" They have to "want to improve" How Guy prepares to interview someone for one of his shows: Contact them well ahead of the interview date Do a deep dive on them and people around them (read, watch videos, listen to podcasts) Do a background check "All of us are imperfect... That's what make someone relatable. We all have flaws. You need to hear the failures." "The interviewee must be generous with their emotions. "The idea that I can learn from someone excites me." "I love transmitting the story." The idea for How I Built This came to him in 2008 when he took a class at Harvard Business School during a sabbatical year as a Nieman journalism fellow after nearly eight years as a foreign correspondent. Guy demands that those who sit for an interview with him are completely open. "I ask them, 'Are you willing to come to this interview and surrender?'" Guy stared as an NPR intern and didn't get the initial jobs he wanted... I asked... "How much of your success can be attributed to luck and how much skill/hard work?" Life advice: Get a job in sales -- All jobs have a selling component. Learn this crucial skill. Be methodical about your experiences. Keep your eyes open for problems all around you... Look for problems to solve. All businesses are built on solving a problem.

Real quick, before we get to this great episode with the legendary Guy Raz, I have a request if you've listened to the show for a while. I would love it if you would go to Apple Podcast, write a thoughtful review, and rate the show five stars. It really helps spread the message. Go to Apple Podcasts, write a thoughtful review, rate the show hopefully five stars. All right, thank you. Here we go. I ask people to be generous. You know, most of the people I interview, most of the people profiled in this book are

extremely wealthy. Some are billionaires. I'm not asking for your money. I'm not asking you to give our listeners your money. I'm asking you to be generous with yourself, with your thoughts. That's very hard. It's easy to be generous with your money. It's very hard to be generous with your emotions.

But if you can convince somebody, and I believe you can because I do this every week, if you can convince somebody that the more generous they are with their emotions, the greater the payback to them will be, the greater the return on that. It's a very important investment. If you can have that conversation with somebody, you will find that by and large people will surrender, will be willing to do that. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show, presented by Brixian Meyer. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. If you're new,

text learners to 4-4-2-2-2 in order to join tens of thousands of learning leaders from all over the world, receive mindful Monday updates what I'm reading, writing, watching, thinking about. Also, give you more details about how my book, Welcome to Management, will help you become a more effective. leader, text learners to 4422. Now on tonight's feature leader to the great Guy Roz, host, co-creator, an editorial director for multiple NPR shows, including my favorite, How I Built This. Also an author of a new book titled How I Built This, the Unexpected Paz to Success from the World's Most Inspiring Entrepreneurs. Guy is an award-winning journalist, an incredible interviewer who has spoken with over 6,000 people, including Richard Branson, Condoleezza Rice, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, M&M, Taylor Swift, and many others.

A few of the topics we discussed, the one he must have quality to be hired on his team. And then Guy shares his in-depth preparation process for interviews. Then he said, why you should work in sales and how much of his success is attributed to luck versus hard work. Ladies and gentlemen, it's the great Guy Raz. All right, here we go, Guy Raz. I am a big fan of your work. So it's a thrill for me to have the opportunity to do this one. And welcome to the Learning Leader Show.

Thank you so much for having me, Ryan. I can we reenact something real quick to get this one started? Yeah, let's do it. So you surprisingly have not seen your book, but I have. No. But I have. And it's right here if you're watching this own video. Amazing.

When I saw the excitement on your face and then you even call your wife in to come and say, look, he has my book and I don't even have you. I've never, it is a beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful. It's textured. It looks so good. And the content inside is even better. So, Guy, I just have to say congratulations, acknowledge the fact that this is a great piece of work, man. And it's beautiful on top of that. I'm so excited. I have not seen the hardcover copy until you just showed. You were like one of the first, if not the first person to receive it. I don't even have one yet. So I'm so excited. I love it. I email my publisher afterwards and said, I want my next book to look and feel like this one. So how I build. All right. this for those if there's somehow somebody listening who hasn't already heard you now they have but uh i love your work guy but i i um that's not how i'd normally start but i was excited about your excitement so i this is how i'd like to get get it going um you've interviewed more than

six thousand people in your career uh including richard branson kelly clarkson condoleezer rice jimmy carter algor mark zuckerberg bill gates emm taylor swith some amazing people, amazingly accomplished people. And Guy, one of the things that I study as part of this show are people who have sustained excellence. And I'm curious from your perspective, what have you found to be some of the commonalities among people who have sustained excellence? I mean, I think it's a combination. I mean, there are obvious things, like obviously like ambition, right? So the question is like, what is it that makes Taylor Swift so consistently successful or or Justin Bieber even or you know you think about some like Miley Cyrus who began as a

sort of a bubble gum pop singer who's now doing really like really really complicated complex work and music what what is it about because it was a time right when when musicians would be one hit wonders and then you would never hear from them again and there's there still there still are some of those but what is it what is about people who can sustain that and keep that going and I think a big part of it is it's what, you know, it's this desire to, to produce for the sake of personal fulfillment, not to get rich, not to be famous, not to reach for the brass ring or win awards, but it's, it's almost like it's oxygen, you know, I think that, you know, Bill Gates is not creating new businesses every day, but I think what makes him successful.

is that he's constantly challenging himself and interrogating his own beliefs and ideas and thinking of ways that he can make a contribution to the world with his vast resources. And that's why he constantly grows. It's what Carol Dweck calls a growth mindset. Your listeners will know Carol Dweck and growth mindset or Angela Duckworth calls grit. It's this sense of needing that oxygen, needing that lifeblood. to live, to survive, and to survive means to grow. And I think that's the key. And by the way, I think it's a choice that people make. I think it's both this kind of biological need,

but a deep choice and decision that successful people make to continue to challenge themselves and to continue to grow by challenging themselves. I sense this in you. How do you continually push yourself to grow, to improve, to get better at your craft? I mean, I think it's so the first thing is the reason why I'm a good interviewer is not because I was born a good interviewer or I started out as a good interviewer. I was a reporter. When I was 22 years old, I started out as a reporter. I'm now in my mid-40s.

And the reality is I have been standing at the free throw line for 25 years shooting free throws. And the first five years, I didn't make any. And the second five years, I made a few more. And then on and on until I started to sink a lot more. The reality is to be, I believe that to be good at anything, to be great at anything, you have to be really bad at it at the beginning. And you have to also accept. understand that it's not a destination. It is a journey. It is a constant journey. You are constantly moving forward and the goalpost is constantly moving farther away from you.

It's sort of like exercise, you know. You can lift 10 pound weights, but you're not going to lift 10 pound weights for a year. You're going to go up to 12 pounds and then to 15 pounds and then to, you know, and the goalpost is going to continually move ahead. You're not going to wake up one day and say, I'm in great shape. I can stop exercising. And it's the same thing with what I do as an interviewer. You know, I'm trying to figure out ways to connect with people. And I'm constantly thinking about how to connect with people because the reality is some

people just naturally connect, right? Like you and I are chemistry, our biology, like our, the, that just thinks about you and things about me that may make it so we just like each other. Like we can meet each other at a coffee house and just strike up a conversation and be friends, right? And then there are some people who are amazing and like everyone loves them and you just don't connect with them, you know? When you're an interviewer, you have to find a way to connect with everybody you bring on to your program.

and whether your chemistry aligns or not. And that is a practiced skill. It's something that I have developed over time. Again, wasn't born with it. I am not an extrovert. I am not the kind of person who shows up at the party and says, hey, the life of the party has arrived. To the contrary, I'm the kind of person who shows up at the party and stands in the

corner and talks to maybe one or two people that night, but has a really intense, deep conversation with them. So again, it's constantly kind of interrogating the, I would say the nonverbal feedback I get from people. You know, sometimes you just pick it up through their facial expressions or their size or their pauses. And these are things that over time I just got better at understanding. It's like a language. And so for me, it's, again, it's a never-ending process. You know, I love, I love hearing people's stories.

I learn so much from them. And because I love that and because I learn so much from it, it's almost like I can't imagine not wanting to get better at what I do. Because the better I get at what I do, the more information and wisdom I gain from the person I'm talking to. So it's a cycle. It's this perpetual cycle that I love, you know. And I think that if you can think about what you do in that way as a perpetual cycle, you will have no choice but to get better at it and to keep moving those goalposts forward. I sense, though, that you not only have you got the reps,

but you would, you've done what the late great Anders Erickson would say is of purposeful practice, meaning you've created feedback loops, whether it's outside coaches or others helping you. you listen back to your own interviews. I have to imagine that that's part of it because the part that Malcolm Gladwell got wrong, right, with a 10,000 hour rule, it's not just about the 10,000 hours. It's about purposeful practice and creating feedback loops. And that is the aspect that helps you improve. How, other than just the reps, what have you put in place to ensure that you've improved?

I have an incredible team of people. I mean, and this is an answer you will hear from a lot of people. It's, you know, how I built this is called how I built this. But, I mean, the reality is it's not about how somebody built something because no, no individual person built anything. It's lots of people who built it, you know. And with respect to what I do, you know, one of the great advantages I've had is the opportunity to work with people I have known.

for 20 years. You know, Neva Grant, my editor, Jeff Rogers, who is my executive producer. I've known them virtually my entire career. We have very, very strong bond and connection. And that has created a dynamic where they can be very, very honest with me and sometimes can give me feedback that is hard to hear, but is absolutely essential. I think the thing with with constructive criticism is that it is, it can be, it can be difficult to absorb in the moment, but once you understand early on that it is essential, that you can't actually, you can't, none of us can assess ourselves fully. We need outside. to help assess us.

You know, we're not, to a certain extent, we can be our own in-house consultant. You know, we can kind of step outside of our body and say, okay, guy, okay, Ryan, like, here's where you're screwing up, like, get a grip. I'm telling you to do X, Y, and Z. And that, you can do some of that. But the reality is you have to have outsiders also help you assess how you're doing, what you're doing, and help you get better. And that's really, I think, been an extremely.

extremely important key for me is to hear that feedback and internalize it and, you know, and figure out how to adjust and also how to improve, how to get better. I mean, that's, that's the ultimate destination. And so for me, the key is, is having that, is having people around me and asking for it, you know, asking people to give me that feedback. Guy, one of the first things I do when I get a book is I turn it to the back and look at the acknowledgement section. And so I did that for yours. And you name a number of people, but I want to speak about two of those people to start.

And that is your mom and your dad. And you wrote that they came to this country in the early 1970s with a dream to build a better life. What are some of the key? learnings you've taken from your mom and your dad. Look, the coming to a new country, knowing nobody, not knowing the language, is incredibly courageous. When I see, you know, folks who come to this country, looking to create a better life for their children, I am in awe of them. I remember growing up, I grew up in, in the San Fernando Valley. I knew a lot of kids whose parents were immigrants. And I had a friend,

her mom and dad came from Korea, and he had a liquor store. And they were very active in their church that parents did not speak great English. And yet their daughter, my friend Kathy, went to Harvard, her sister went to, you know, UPenn, the other sister went to Yale or Princeton. I mean, you know, it's just incredible stories. And to come to a new place where you know nobody, You have no ties, no connections, no advantages is very, very courageous. I don't know if I've ever had that level of courage in my life. And I covered three wars, four wars. You know, I think that to do that, to leave your family and everything you know and do that is incredibly courageous.

That's the first thing I take away from that, is that courage is a real thing. And courage is, courage requires a level of resistance. that I don't think we always appreciate. The second thing I would say is that it's a risk to do that. But without taking a risk, there is no reward. And oftentimes people come to this country knowing that they may not make it. You know, they themselves may not make it, but their children have a better chance to do so. I remember I was in New York City earlier this year. I was in a taxi and I was talking to this taxi driver. and he got to asking me what I do, and I told him what I do, and he happened to be a listener. He happened to be how I built this listener, and he was just a wonderful man.

He was from Ghana, and forgive me, he was from the Ivory Coast. And he said when he came to this country, you know, was very hard, really hard. And he's now been in the country for 25, 30 years, still driving an Uber now, but was driving a taxi for a long time. Yet his oldest son is an investment banker on Wall Street, and his daughter is a medical doctor, you know, and he said, that's the thing. You know, I, I knew that I probably wouldn't be able to fulfill all the dreams that I had for me personally, but the most important dream was to, to get to create a runway and a path for my children. And that's what my parents did, too. You know, they, they took a big risk. They left their families behind. They came to this country,

and they started a business. My dad was, when my dad started his, small jewelry business. He was 41 years old. He was an engineer. He had a job with a defense contractor, health insurance. He had three kids. I mean, that's really risky. He had a house, a mortgage. He started a business at 41 years old. No experience in the jewelry industry, knew nobody. He and my mom were cold calling people at night. We're going door to door in downtown L.A. trying to sell pearls. And yet within a few years, they created a sustainable business that was able to support a family. That's a huge. risk. I think that it's an incredibly inspiring idea. And sometimes when I'm afraid to take risks,

I think about that, you know, because we think, I think, God, it's not as risky as the risk my dad took or my mom took, you know. And that's actually been an incredibly important kind of North Star for me when I think about personal risk. I always remember, I always think back to the risks my parents took. Let's fast forward. It's 2008 and an idea comes to your mind. You were taking a class at, I believe, Harvard Business School during a sabbatical year as a Neiman journalism fellow. And this is after nearly eight years as a foreign correspondence. You've traveled the world, like as you mentioned, reporting in wartime at wars. And you're on this. sabbatical year and you have an idea. Can you take us back to 2008 during this year what this

idea was and then what it took for that idea to come to fruition? I took this class. I had this year fellowship year at Harvard, which is one amazing experience for a journalist. It's called the Neiman Fellowship. And I took a class at the Harvard Business School. And I was blown away at the way they teach business. They teach business through stories called the case study method, as many of your listeners and viewers will know. In 2008, I had no idea. I thought business school was charts and numbers and graphs and, you know, analysis. No, they teach business school through the case study method. And Harvard Business School really pioneered this. And I remember reading the story of Howard Schultz and Starbucks back in 2008. And you get case study A. And then,

And you don't get part B until the next week. You know, and you come and you discuss in class, and then you get part B, and then you find out what happens. And it was like a cliffhanger. And I was totally blown away. I thought, these are incredible stories. Like, these need to be told in a much bigger way. And that idea just got planted in my head at the time. And I thought, could I do something with this one day?

Could I tell these kinds of stories, these dramatic stories with cliffhanger? with triumph and failure and disaster and obviously success too. Could I tell those stories, you know, to a broader audience in an even more powerful way? And that was the genesis of how I built this. I mean, it took me eight, it took me sort of seven years to really get this off the ground, but it was always in the back of my mind from that, from that time. I mean, it was, you know, here's the thing I will say, I am, you know, not a business. this, like, I don't have a business background. I have two businesses myself. I am an entrepreneur.

I have some, you know, I run companies, small companies, small businesses. But at my core, I'm a journalist. That's how I started my career. And I was always really inspired by Heroes journeys. So if you have ever read Joseph Campbell, you know about this concept that he wrote about in the 60s and 70s, which was that pretty much every story follows a similar narrative arc. You've got the hero, the hero has this crazy idea. She has to leave the village because everyone tells her she's crazy. She goes and finds a mentor and then the mentor dies and then she has to battle a dragon and almost dies herself and falls into an abyss and then emerges.

And, you know, that narrative arc can be found in biblical stories and the Odyssey and Gilgamesh and Star Wars, Harry Potter. those that narrative arc, those archetypes are found in the stories that we tell on how I built this. And I realize this reading those case study method, those case studies that so many of those elements from the hero's journey are in the story

of an entrepreneur trying to realize a dream. You know, trying to make impossible burgers or trying to build Airbnb or Stonyfield Yogurt. You know, all of these stories have elements of that, those archetypes. And that's, you know, that's what I've done. I've been a storyteller my whole career. I've been in Iraq or Afghanistan or Kosovo telling stories.

I'm essentially doing a version of the same thing, but through the prism of business now. Guy, I vividly remember where I was. I was walking out of the office at Lexis Nexus to my car when I first turned on to your episode was Sarah Blakely. This was your first episode of how I built this. And as I walked from the door of that building to my car, I remember thinking, I'm going to listen to every single episode this guy puts out. It was probably like a three minute walk. So within three minutes. And when was that five? How many years ago was that now? Four years ago. And since that time, I thought that what were you thinking that moment when your first how I built this episode went live.

Will anybody listen to this? Seriously? Like, after you listened to the first cut, after it was put together and the music and all the cliffhangers, you had to be like, wait a second, we got something really good here. You had to feel that. I knew we had something good there. I was working with just a brilliant group of people, including an amazing composer named

Grumpteen Ereblewey. who's now has his own show called ThruLine, just a wonderful person, a dear friend. And he had no experience in audio journalism. He was just a great guy, met him. And I said, hey, do you want to work with me for a couple of months on this pilot? And when I heard it, you know, we worked on it for a long time, many, many cuts on that episode.

But it was a great story. And Sarah was an amazing guest. And we very deliberately launched the show with Sarah, because we wanted to send a message to people that this wasn't going to be a show about the usual suspects, that we were going to tell you stories that if people that you didn't know, you might know their brands, but you may not know their story. And it wasn't going to be, as I say, the usual suspects. Of course, we were going to have the Richard Branson's and the Howard Schultz's.

But it was also going to be a show with, you know, Kathy Hughes, who started the largest African-American radio network in the country who was broke, you know, at age and a single mom at like 29, 30 who became a multimillionaire. Just an incredible story. It was rejected by 30 banks until one bank, 31st bank gave her a loan. Just an amazing story in resilience. And so when that first episode came out, I really didn't know. You know, I think in the, not only in the back of my mind, but in the front of my mind, I thought this was a temporary series that we would do, my plan was we do 20 episodes and see how it goes. And it was not an instant.

I mean, it was not a fast, like, you know, rocket ship. It took us a couple months before people kind of found out about it and got into it. I mean, you're a rare exception. But we, I think by the time we got to episode three, which I think was Airbnb, we started to feel like we were getting lift off, you know, like we were just starting to take off on that runway. But I didn't, I genuinely could not have known that it was going to become as popular as it, as it has become to the point where at the time, I was, I had another show called TED Radio Hour, which was a much bigger show because it had been around. I would not have known at the time that, you know, four years later, I would have stepped down from that show. I just couldn't, I couldn't do that show and this show and the other shows I do. I do a children's show and I do a show called Wisdom from the top.

you know, this was a side project originally. But very quickly, it became clear that we were tapping into something. And that's what happened. Guy, there are a lot of people listening who interview other people. Now, it may be in the business form where they're interviewing people to bring on to their team. There's leaders that are running businesses. And I believe from the next part of I'm about the share that they can learn from you and from your process in order to do a better job when it comes to interviewing and hiring

people for their teams. And I read a story, the New York Times article about you where they've said that you demand that people who sit for an interview with you are completely open. You say you ask them, are you willing to come to this interview and surrender? And I don't know if that's necessarily possible stating it that way to someone in a business form. So I'm trying to see how this could work in both your show as well as someone who's running a business and bringing people onto their team. But how can someone like that do a better job of creating a more real experience where you get to know the real person and create some vulnerability with your guests so that you truly get a sense of who they are? So when you're making the decision to hire or not,

hire, your odds will increase of making a better decision because you've got a sense of who this person actually is. Yeah, I mean, in the interview process, if you're interviewing somebody, it's always tricky, right, because that's not a public forum. That's a private forum. And you always want to be careful about respecting someone's private life and personal space in a professional interview. I'll start with what I look for when I hire somebody.

Obviously, you know, we get, you know, when we have an opening, we get incredibly qualified candidates. And I think a lot of people probably are in the same situation. You've got a lot of qualified people. For us, you know, the primary quality that we look for in somebody, and this is going to, I say this with a little hesitation because it's going to sound a little hokey and unscientific. but we look for kindness. We really do. We filter for kindness. I mean, if a person is kind, we can train them to do pretty much everything we do.

If a person is kind, it's much more likely they're a team player. It's much more likely that they want to get, they want to improve, they want to get better, they want to contribute. that idea of kindness just kind of, it seems to, at least in the case of our team, and we're a small team, you know, it's 15 to 20 people at any given time. And that idea really has, over the past certainly eight years that I've worked with most members of my team, has really proved to be a successful measure. I would say in terms of interviewing somebody, and let me just say in terms of interviewing somebody in a public forum, because I think probably a lot of people, watching this also find themselves in a situation, maybe it's a company-wide meeting or even like now people are doing Zoom calls where they are moderating an event or they're interviewing somebody in a public forum. What I would always say is if you can try and contact that person

ahead of time, it's always super important. It's important because, and what I say to people ahead of time is look, all of us are imperfect. Everyone is imperfect. There's no perfect human being. And if we were to do a show that only shows how perfect you are, it's very hard, it would be very hard for most people to relate to you because that's not who our listeners are. We are all imperfect. We all have our own flaws. And we, when we see those reflected in other people who we admire and have, and people who have achieved some level of success, that's actually really reassuring for us. That's why we need to hear your. failures. We need to hear the moments when you were on the bathroom floor crying in the fetal

position, right? That's why, because if you can do that, if you can be there for people, you will make a much bigger contribution to their growth. And so I ask people, and it's reflected in the book, you know, I ask people to be generous. You know, these, most of the people I interview, most of people profiled in this book are extremely wealthy. Some are billionaires. I'm not asking for your money. I'm not asking you to give our listeners your money. I'm asking you to be generous with yourself, with your thoughts. That's very hard. It's easy to be generous with your money. It's very hard to be generous with your emotions. But if you can convince somebody, and I believe you can because I do this every week, if you can convince somebody,

that the more generous they are with their emotions, the greater the payback to them will be. The greater the return on that. It's a very important investment. If you can have that conversation with somebody, you will find that by and large people will surrender, will be willing to do that. There are moments in every one of your conversations

that I am privileged to hear that others are millions around the world, listen to where you get excited, you say, wow, or a New York Times called it total marvelment. And I think in a way, I don't know how it just seems to bring this joy and excitement both to your guest that you're talking to as well as the listener. And I sense just that's genuinely you. You're genuinely, oh my goodness, like that's incredible. Just like you were when I showed you your book for the first time.

I'm like, wow, it seems so genuine. Is there any type of strategy there, or is that just you letting it go? Like you being guy in the moment of showing how excited you are? I mean, it's it's me being me, but it's certainly, it's certainly a reflection of hard, of the hard work that I think anybody can cultivate, which is that I love what I do. I love what I do. not every moment of it. Sometimes it's, you know, a long edit can be tedious and, you know, waiting through mountains of audio can be, but the idea that I can learn from somebody, right? I love that so much. And the reality is when I go into an interview, you know, I know a lot

about the person. I have done many hours of research. I have read a lot about them. But without fail, in every interview I do because I know so much about them, I learn so much about them. And in part, because of the conversation we have, it triggers certain memories. We'll go down rabbit holes. And those wows are like they are totally authentic and real because I am in a zone. I do these interviews in my studio. I'm in a small space. I'm not in there right now,

but normally my studio in a small space. I'm totally tunnel vision focused on them, whether it's the two of us together or we're just listening to each other if they're remote. Obviously, during COVID, it's been remote. And I'm so invested in that story because I'm there, you know,

with that person on that journey. I'm now in their mind Like if the cockpit, you know, the sort of Star Wars cockpit is in their head and they're driving and I'm sitting next to them and I'm kind of co-piloting this thing and making sure that they stay on the path so, you know, we don't get too off track. I'm so invested in this journey that it is, it really, I mean, the reactions are they are exactly what they are. I'm just sometimes, even if I know a little bit about it, when I hear it, when you hear them talk about it, it's like, Wait, what? Like, what did you, you know, what were you thinking? You know, like we just had an episode about, about Vitacoco. It's a great story about the coconut water company. And there were these like insane coconut wars between Zico and Vita Koko in the early 2000s. And, you know, one point like Michael Curbin of Vita Koko was talking about how, you know, they would sabotage each other. You know, Zico would go into convenience stores and, you know, remove Vita Koko. and put them like behind other products and the Vitico guys would go in

and change the price tags on Zico. You know, I knew about this, but when you hear him describe it, it's just, it's so cinematic. You're thinking, you know, you're nuts. I mean, this is hugely risky. So it happens in every interview. And it's part of what I love about the process.

I love hearing these stories and I love being able to help transmit them to our listeners. who gain value from them. What is what what's your preparation process look like? So think back to whether it's the Sarah Blakely since that's been the one we've focused on. What was it like leading up to that time when you sat down to record with her? And I assume you only recorded with her once.

Yes. Sometimes we're like you only did one. Okay. But you only did one. Okay. So what was the like the moments from when you booked her when you knew she was going to be the guests to when you actually. to when you actually recorded, what did you do in between those times? It's pretty much the same process.

You know, we do a lot of research on who we want to approach to be on the show. And we, because we only do, we do one episode a week. And we take a couple weeks off. So, you know, about 45 episodes a year. And we, our team really spent a lot of time kind of searching out tons of different stories and trying to identify who we want to approach. And we do some research before we even contact a person, contact them. And then we set up a call and I have a call with them.

And then we do a really deep dive. I mean, we do, if they have a book, I'll read it. If they, you know, any articles that have been written about them, we do, you know, we gather those articles. We even do deeper background checks just to kind of make sure, you know, there's nothing that, no stone unturned. You know, it's a little bit like a lawyer doing, you know, the process of discovery a little bit. We do a really, really intensive background search as best we can. And, you know, and I'll tell you why we do that.

We don't do that. You know, this is not obviously a vetting process to be the vice president of the United States. here's why we do it. We realized pretty quickly in the first season of how I built this that many of our listeners associate our show with entrepreneurship and that when they think of entrepreneurship, they think also of how I built this. And so it meant that we had a responsibility to represent the best of entrepreneurship. You know, I love entrepreneurs.

I want people to be entrepreneurs. I think it is the engine of innovation in the United States and around the world. What I don't want is for people to be entrepreneurs without integrity, entrepreneurs who are unethical, entrepreneurs who are only in it for the money, because that's not interesting. There's nothing wrong with making money. It's totally fine. But to only be in it for the money, I think, in my view, is not interesting for our show. And not to disparage anybody.

It's just not interesting for our show. I want to hear from people who are trying to solve a problem or many problems or trying to do something better for the world or a part of the world. And you might say, well, what did Sarah Blakely do? What she do? She transformed the way women feel about their bodies. I mean, you might not think about that when you pass a Spanx shop, but that is essentially what she did. I mean, if you know any woman who wears her undergarments, you know that it helps them feel more confident. That's a huge thing, right? Like, what is, you know, what does Stuart Butterfield solve with Slack? I mean, he solved an enormous challenge of inner office communication, made it more efficient, streamlined. So, you know, we do this vetting process because we want to represent the best of entrepreneurship. We want people who are, who have integrity, who are kind, who treat their employees well.

And we do that because we want other people to be inspired by them and then go do that. the same thing. Even if it's an Etsy shop or, you know, brick, a small e-commerce store, we want them to think of those values and say, you know, Howard Schultz, I heard him on how I built this. He's a really great guy. And he is. He's a good man. And that's what I want people to hear. I want them to hear those stories. So that's why we're so careful about how we vet and who we bring on to the show. You write that every failure is a hidden, blessing. Why? I mean, in my life, the failures that I have had were at the time so difficult and challenging. All the jobs that I didn't get. I mean, the fact that I started in radio at all,

it was a failure. I mean, I, I want my dream was to be a newspaper reporter. That was my dream. You started as an intern, correct? I did. I couldn't, I couldn't get an internship at any newspaper in the 1990s. That was where all the best college student. journalists went and I couldn't get that. I sort of ended up at NPR as an accident as well, having been rejected for the internship two times before that. But man, had I gone to a newspaper, I think my career would have been very different. I feel so fortunate that I started out in audio, but that was really, because I couldn't get a job in newspapers. And then, you know, throughout my career at NPR when I was an employee there, so many times, you know, there were jobs

that I wanted that I didn't get. I dreamed of being the evening news anchor of all things considered, you know, the main host of that show. I was the weekend host. I didn't get it. And that was a really tough blow for me in my life and my career. And I think that, you know, this is now more than 10 years ago. At the time, I thought, you know, am I, what am I going to do with my life?

Like, should I move on? Should I find a different career? You know, there were times where even before I, you know, started how I built this in TED Radio Hour, you know, there were folks, there were executives who said, you know, you just don't have the right personality and voice to be the host of an NPR program. And they weren't wrong at that time. It was just that I felt in my heart that they were, that they need to give me an opportunity. But, you know, those setbacks were also kind of fuel. that drove me to really want to see if I could prove them wrong. And so those were all important moments. Those setbacks and failures also pushed me in a different direction. You know, if I had gotten the dream job of being the evening news anchor, I wouldn't be talking to you today because I would never have started how I built this.

You know, I wouldn't have gone to TED Radio Hour and launched that show. And so, you know, there's a direct connection between why that happened and what I do today. And I think, and I say this a lot of times to people, which is reflect on the failures in their life. Reflect on the things you didn't get or that didn't happen to you, right? Like, you didn't have an NFL career, right? That's probably a good thing. Like, the way your life turned out is probably so much richer. You know, you might have been in the NFL for one or two seasons.

And a lot of those guys come out and they don't. know what to do with their lives. And they blow all their money very quickly. You know, they don't have a whole lot of structure. These are incredible athletes, the best in the world, and then they've got a two-year career, and that's it. I mean, you know what I mean? Absolutely. And so all of these moments of crushing defeat and failure, oftentimes they are, they happen for a reason. And they happen because the outcome, the eventual outcome is much, much better for you in your circumstances. Guy, when you analyze your career up to this point, you're kind of like maybe getting

close to the halfway point of your career. When you analyze everything from when you got started to today, this very moment, what percentage of your success would you say is attributed to luck versus what percentage is attributed to hard work and skill? I will preface that by saying, and I mentioned this in the book, I asked that question really not, it kind of just started, I think, from the first or second episode just kind of randomly. And I don't ask it for a literal answer. I know it sounds weird.

I'm not saying, tell me, is it luck or skill? It's more about just seeing how the person will reflect on that question. Because everyone I interview know that, they know. that question's coming. But I asked that question after a long, long interview. And it's kind of designed, the way I describe it in the book is it's like, if you've ever gone to an art museum, oftentimes an art museum has a cavern of this sort of giant atrium, you know, with these huge ceilings. And you walk through it and then you go and you look at the art and then you come back through the atrium, through this soaring, you know, atrium high-stallings.

ceilings. And those are designed very specifically to create a sense of space for you to reflect on what you just experienced. That's sort of the luck and skill question. It's like you're now in the atrium of the museum. You've seen the art or we've talked about your story. Now let's just kind of reflect on everything we talked about. And so there's no right answer to the question. And sometimes the person I interview doesn't really want to say either. Look, in my case, of course, I've worked really hard, but I love working hard. It's, it brings me joy. You know, I, I'd like to work until the very, very end, I think, because it's fulfilling.

But there are factors in my life, and I think the most important factor in my life, that have to do with luck. And to me, earlier before we started this, you met my wife on the video screen. I mean, I met her 20 plus years ago at a random barbecue in Washington, D.C. that neither of us was supposed to be at. I didn't even get her name or number, but a friend of mine knew who she was when I called later to describe her. And my friend invited her to a party the next weekend, which Hannah did not want to go to. And in the last minute, walked down the stairs and said, hang on, I'll come. Just give me five minutes. And came to that party.

And 20 plus years later, we've got two children. And, you know, she runs our production company and is the most important advisor and sounding board and has enabled me, has helped me feel like I can do these things. that's luck. That is luck. And so while of course I work, I work and continue to work and will always work hard, that luck factor can't be discounted in my case. What, there's a 23-year-old listening right now and they are smart, hardworking, ambitious, and want to be a positive force in the world. what general life advice would you give to that person? All right. I'm going to actually kind of steal this from Mark Cuban, a version of this, which is get experience in sales. Learn how to sell something.

My first job by the last your football guy, inside sales, 70, 80 cold calls a day. It was the best possible thing I could have done. Because it's hell. Yes. It's hell. It's boot camp. It learned a lot. A ton. Yeah.

Get a job in. sales and be very, very methodical. Be careful with your money. And keep your eyes open for problems all around you. If you're standing in line at your favorite coffee place and something about the experience annoys you or you get your coffee and it's something isn't right or you, you know, sign up for a product or a service and it's not what you expect. Solve that problem. That is what every business is. Every successful enterprise is solving a problem. And it doesn't matter if you're Slack or if you're running a small HVAC company. If you're running a small HVAC company and you want to be successful, you've got to provide a better service at a better price than

your competitors. That solves a problem for customers. So keep your eyes open for problems. You will always encounter them. And at some point, you will find a problem that you will know needs to be solved and that you are the only one to do it. Love it. So here's the book. I'm showing it for those who are watching on video. You can actually feel the texture guy. I can't wait till you could actually do it yourself. I can't either. You don't have it yet. It is not only beautiful on the outside, but it is really good on the inside. And even if you've listened to every episode, you'll still want to dive into this book and just go deeper on each. I know Ryan Holiday and Nils Parker, I think helped you out a little bit on this.

Nill is one of your co-writers, right? Or your co-writer on this book. And it's just such a, you did a fantastic job and putting it all together. And I love it, man. I'm excited for you. And it's just going to crush it when this thing comes out.

So congrats. I want to acknowledge that. And thank you so much for investing your time with me today. Guy. I was a thrill for me. Thank you, Ryan. Thanks so much for the support. It's been great, great.

Absolutely. And I'd love to, You know, you're the master. You're the man. I'd love to continue this dialogue as we both progress, man. Let's do it. Love it. Thanks so much, Guy.

All right. Cheers. It makes sense to me that Guy said, we filter for kindness. He's certainly one of the most kind leaders I've ever met. I thoroughly enjoyed that conversation with Guy. A few of my other takeaways. When he mentioned the fact that, that he is a good interviewer,

it's because he's been shooting free throws, as he put it, for 25 years. Purposeful practice, getting the repetitions, the feedback, surrounding yourself with a great team that can be honest with you. That is a critical component to sustaining excellence at anything you choose to do. Then I love this mindset,

and what if we all approach life, thinking this. And that is, quote, the idea that I can learn from someone excites me. If we treated every conversation with an open mind, with our intellectual curiosity, approaching them thinking, I can learn something. And that excites me. I love that aspect from Guy. And then at the very end, what he just said, his advice in regards to a young college graduate which I actually think could go to anyone first get a job in sales all aspects of any job will have a sales component it's worth it to learn those skills then keep your eyes open for problems around you all businesses are

built upon solving problems look to do that once again I greatly appreciate you spreading the word tell a friend or too. Hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leaders Show with Guy Raz. I think it could be helpful. And because you continue to tell a friend or two, you give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so much. Talk with you soon. Can't wait.