The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 388: Patrick Lencioni - The Six Types Of Working Genius

Episode Date: October 18, 2020

Text LEARNERS to 44222 Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12 The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk Episode #388: Patrick Lencioni - The 6 Types of Working Genius Notes: What is a "Working Genius?" – There are six different types, and we all have two of them that are natural to us.  We are good at doing them, and we get energy and joy and satisfaction from them. What about the other four areas? – Two of them are areas that we really struggle with.  They exhaust us and drain us of our energy and passion, and in many cases, we're not very good at them.  We call these our areas of Working Frustration. We should doing those things as much as we possibly can, and we certainly shouldn't do work that calls for us to do them frequently. That is a recipe for frustration, failure, depression. And then there are two other areas that are in between our geniuses and our frustrations, we call these Working Competencies, areas that we can do pretty well, maybe even really well, but that don't necessarily give us energy or joy. It's fine to have these things be part of your job, and even the primary part of your job sometimes, but it's not as good as living and working in your areas of genius. What is different about The Six Types of Working Genius and other personal assessments out there? -- This one is quicker to understand, easier to apply, and focused on the work of getting things done. What are the six types of working genius? Wonder - People with this genius can't help but question whether things could be better in the world around them. They are troubled whenever they see unmet potential, and they are constantly curious and on the lookout for the need to change something. Invention - This type of genius is all about creativity. People who have it love to generate new ideas and solutions to problems and are even comfortable coming up with something out of nothing. Discernment - People with this type of genius have a natural ability when it comes to evaluating or assessing a given idea or situation and providing guidance. They have good instincts, gut feel and judgment about the subtleties of making decisions that integrate logic, common sense and human needs. Galvanizing - This type of genius is about bringing energy and movement to an idea or decision. People who have it like to initiate activity by rallying people to act and inspiring them to get involved. Enablement - People with this type of genius are quick to respond to the needs of others by offering their cooperation and assistance with a project, program or effort. They naturally provide the human assistance that is required in any endeavor, and not on their own terms. Tenacity - This type is about ensuring that a given project, program or effort is taken to completion and achieves the desired result. People who have this genius push for required standards of excellence and live to see the impact of their work. What are Pat's areas of working genius? "I am naturally good at and drawn to what we call Invention and Discernment, I like to come up with new, original ideas, even when it's not what's called for.  And I love to use my intuition to evaluate and assess ideas and plans to see what would be best.  My areas of frustration are Tenacity and Enablement, meaning I struggle to push projects through to completion after the initial excitement wears off, and I have a hard time providing assistance to others on their terms. That doesn't mean I can't do those things, because all of us have to do things we don't like or aren't good at sometimes. But if I'm in a situation where people are relying on me as their primary source of enablement and tenacity, that's not good for me or for them in the long run." What are my areas of working genius? Discernment and Tenacity. The assessment says: "You are good at and enjoy using your intuition and instincts to evaluate and assess ideas or plans, and pushing projects and tasks through to completion to ensure that the desired results are achieved." Your likely areas of Working Competency are: Invention and Galvanizing. "You are capable of and don't mind creating original and novel ideas and solutions, and rallying people and inspiring them to take action around a project, task or idea."

And the thing is there's more than one way to skin a cat. There's more than one way to be a CEO. There's more than one way to be a principal of a school or a pastor of a church. And there's more than one way to be a head coach. But if you don't know what your genius is and you don't find people that are geniuses in areas that you're not, it's not going to be a collaborative effort. And you said that's why we call it working genius. It's discover your gifts so that you can fit onto a team and get things done.

Welcome to the Learning Leader Show presented by Rixie and Mike. I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text, learners to 4422. In order to join tens of thousands of learning leaders from all over the world, receive mindful Monday updates what I'm reading, writing, watching, thinking about. Also give you more details about how my book, Welcome to Management, will help you become a more effective leader.

Text learners to 4-4-222. Now on to tonight's featured leader. He's back. Patrick Lensioni, multiple-time best-selling author of many books, including the five dysfunctions of a team, the advantage, the ideal team player, and the motive, among others. This conversation was focused solely on a new concept. that Pat is rolling out called the six types of working genius.

And Pat will describe each of those six types. Then he'll share the assessment that he has taken as well as the one that I have taken and how we can be working within our working genius. And then he follows it up by sharing how you can do the same. Ladies and gentlemen, as always with Pat, it's entertaining. but it also will be very informative and educational. It's Pat Linsioni. All right, Pat.

It's so good to see you, man, and talk to you. Welcome back on the Learning Leaders Show for like the fourth or fifth time. I don't even know. It's just good to see you, man. I love it. And boy, we didn't record it, but we just spent 45 minutes or so talking about everything under the sun. It's just, I love talking to you, too. It's a blast.

Yeah, we should have recorded that. Okay. the reason though that I thought now is a pertinent time for us to talk is because in my conversations with you and your team, I'm not sure I've ever heard you this excited about a concept. And this is coming from the guy who wrote the five dysfunctions of a team and the ideal team player like Joe Burrow, as we were talking about all there. All these incredible, the motive, right? I love that little book. All of these incredible. concepts that you've written about and created, yet this newest one on these six types of working genius, I sense more excitement in your voice than I've ever heard before, man. So that's why I really wanted to talk to you about this. Yeah, you know, in fact, we're releasing this, the model that it's based on and this tool before the book. I haven't, I'm in the midst of, I've just started writing the book and we're hopefully going to have it at the beginning of the year.

But we are so excited about this model. It's changed my company. It's changed my marriage. Really? Absolutely. And it's based on 20 years of moderate frustration at work and like not under it. Why am I frustrated? And one day, just three months ago, we figured it out. And it's everything is different. So I'm very excited.

So let's dig into the concept. And I'll, I'll kind of lay the framework here, Pat. So I've taken the assessment. You obviously understand it and have done it. I love for you to explain and share the concept at a high level. And then we can get more personal and share my results and how I can best lean into this, as well as your results and how you actually implemented this within your company, because doing that will help others who are listening and watching implement it within their company.

So the six types of working genius, can you give us an overview of, what this is. So there's two ways to look at this. One is these six things are the six activities that are required to get anything done. Like any project, any, I mean, even in your family, you've got to do these things to run a family, to run a business, to get a project done. Anything that has to be done requires six different activities. And as it turns out, every one of us has two of them that we're awesome at, that we love doing God-given natural ability that gives us energy and joy and that we have natural talent in. And when we get to do those every day, we're really excited and we're productive and we're motivated. It's a great flywheel effect. Like, man, I love doing

this. I want to do more. And I do it better. And so I want to do it more. But there's two of the six that and we call that your area of working genius. You're a working genius when you're doing those things. And in fact, we guessed yours based on knowing you over the years. Cody guessed your type. So we'll talk about that in a bit. But there are two of these six things we call your area of working frustration. They're the other end of the scale where you're like,

oh, please don't make me do that. And though every one of us has to do stuff we don't like to do sometimes, if you're in a position where you have to do that too much at work or in your work even at home or in your personal life, it's going to drain you of your energy, you're going to get really frustrated, and it can make you miserable. And there's people that go to work and they're like, I don't, I hate my job, but I don't know why. And it's like probably because you're working in your area of working frustration. Now, that's two and two, that's four. Then there's these two in the middle we call your area of working competency. And your areas of working competency are things

you can do pretty well. They don't necessarily give you energy and joy, but but you're like, I don't mind it. I can do it for a while. I'm pretty good at it. Now, if you're doing that in your job, that's great. But if you're not doing anything in your area of working genius, you start to wilt a little bit. And boy, I'm so excited that you have listeners out there

that are going to hear this and take this assessment and have mind-blowing self-discovery in a very simple, fast, and practical way. Because that's how this came about. I was sitting here, Amy, who works with me, she and I've worked together for 25 years, she and I were doing a conference call or a Zoom call with an organization. And then I did a follow-up with them, and I had to give them some tough feedback. And then I came up with another idea right after that. And Amy said, why do you do what you do?

And I was like, I don't know, but I wish I knew because half of it frustrates me, half of it I love, and I don't know why. And that day in the next four hours, she and I and two other colleagues sat in our office, in the middle of COVID, by the way, it was just the four of us in there with a whiteboard. And we came up with this theory. And we were like, oh my gosh, this is huge. Get this. I went home that night and had a Zoom call and was talking to one of our best consultants.

And I put it on the whiteboard. I said, hey, we just came up with this model today. And he was like, that's really interesting. The next day he went and met with the CEO of a company. And the next morning, so less than 24 hours after we came up with this. And the CEO was frustrated and he drew the model on the board and said, what about this? The guy started crying. Really?

He said, and this is the CEO of a big company. He said, oh my gosh, that's why. That's what's going on. Oh, my gosh. This explains everything. And so the face validity of this, every time we show it to somebody, they're like, oh, yeah, that's what I love. Oh, gosh. every time they make me do that at work, I wilt.

And so here we are. I'm excited about this because I've seen how it affects people's lives and how it allows people to tap into their God-given natural gifts, which were meant to do. Can you share the six types? Sure, sure, sure. The first one is a mysterious one. It's really powerful.

My wife has it. And it's not one of my working geniuses. And it's called the gift, the genius of wonder. And these are people that just, they ponder things and they're looking at the big picture and they're like, something's not right. I think there's more, this could be better. This, we could, I don't think our customers are as happy as they could be. Or I don't think our family is living up to its potential. Or I don't think our employees are really, I don't think there's something here that I just know is not right.

And I've been sitting in it and thinking about it and pondering it and angsting over it. I don't know what the answer is, but I know there's something here that needs to be addressed. best. And the people that do this really well certainly don't think that they have a genius. And other people sometimes think, why are you so worried about that? And it's like, that's a genius we need to tap into because they're the ones that see the canary and the coal mine coughing and go, hey, everybody, I'm really worried about it. And other people are like, you worried too much. It's like, no, no, no, no. They have a gift. They see issues or potential or opportunity. or potential challenges long before everybody else.

And that's the beginning of innovation. And so Amy and our company has this. And my wife has it. And I've never really understood it as the talent or the genius that it is. And now when we turn to them and say, we need your W. We need your wonder. What is your biggest picture mind seeing out there?

Now, that's just the first one. They need, and that's how these are all interconnected, they need the second genius, which is one of my favorite. This is one of mine work. And that's the genius of invention. Somebody that looks at that and says, oh, that is a problem. Boy, that's great that you identified it. I want to come up with a solution. I want to invent something, create something novel and new.

My favorite thing in the world, Ryan, is when people come to me and say, we don't know how to solve this problem. or there's a need in the world, but how would you, how would you, how would you do that? And I'm like, oh, good, good. Don't say anything more. I want to come up with something out of nothing. It's like I love creating new stories, new models. When people say, I remember years ago, Ryan, people said meetings are boring. And I thought, I want to figure out how to make them better.

And I would sit in my client's boring meetings. And I would look around and go, okay, I think I'm figuring something out here. And the genius of invention isn't just about technology or inventing an airplane or something. It's about a new way of thinking about things. Heck, a fantastic vacation for your family. Like, I like coming up with something out of nothing. Invention is in my DNA. And unfortunately, people think inventors are the superstars in society.

They're not. They're not. You need all of these because the next type of genius, and this is one that you and I share is what we call the genius of discernment. And this is critical. And this is what prompted this whole model is because nobody really describes this well. People that have the genius of discernment are the ones that look at somebody else's idea or look at a concept or a plan.

And they have this innate natural ability to tap into their intuition and their instincts, even without data, maybe especially without data and just go, that's a great idea. Or no, no, no, that's not going to work. They just have this emotional intelligence and instinct to look at something and say, wow, you're on to something there. And they are the ones that provide the inventor with insight and vetting and questions. and they actually take the innovation and make sure it can work or can make sure that it's a good idea or that they kill a bad idea. The genius of discernment is huge in our personal lives and

in our work. And without it, you can't innovate because nobody's given you the right feedback or assessment of whether it's a good idea. So that's the third. You start with the genius of wonder, something's not right, then you go to the genius of invention, I have an idea, then you go to the genius of discernment and go, whoa, whoa, whoa, let me ask you some questions. I think I can figure this out. And then the person with the genius of discernment needs the next genius, which I don't have and which I've been doing for 20 years and it's been crushing me. And that's what brought this about. And that is the genius of galvanizing. Galvanizing is that person that goes, so you think that's a great idea? I'm going to get everybody signed up. I'm going to go

out and get everybody in a room and get them motivated and organized and moving forward. I'm going to inspire them. I'm going to recruit them. I'm going to galvanize them so that we actually do something with this. Now, it is an area of competence for me, but it doesn't come naturally and it exhausts me. Really? Every day I was coming to work. Surprises me a bit. It surprises you because I do it all the time. Yes. But and that's the thing. thing. Everybody at work thought, well, you do this for us because I was the one that did it at work for years, but they didn't know that it wasn't giving me joy. And in fact, it was frustrating me over time because I was doing that instead of tapping into my natural genius. And so you know what I did?

I found two people in my organization. In fact, I found one that had it. And I said, I'm going to make you the galvanizer. And we hired a guy that we knew and said, you're a galvanizer. You're going to come in and do more of that so that I can actually live in my genius, which is more invention and discernment. Can we pause for a second here, Pat? Please. Okay. When you say I find a guy or I found someone who has this type of genius that I really want because it's lacking on my team or I don't have it as the leader of the team, that as a,

as a leader and someone who's been in positions to hire and I help people who are hiring others, this is a critical point. How does one, maybe it's as simple as they take your assessment, I'm not sure, but how does one know, okay, I need a galvanizer? What are some of the things you ask in an interview? What do you search for when you're out there looking around? Like, how do you find a specific type of working genius when you are recruiting? Well, and that's the thing about this model.

It is so much more behavioral. I mean, and I love the Myers-Briggs and disc and all those other things, but it's kind of like, so are we supposed to hire an ENFJ? Well, not necessarily. But these things are your working genius. They are specifically, practically applied to getting things done. So in the assessment and in the model, here's a way to do this. We wrote this, here's what a galvanizer tends to think and say.

They say things like, come on, everyone, this is a huge opportunity. Or let's figure out how to get this go. or I need you to join the team or does anyone here understand why we need to do this? Now, and here's what other people say about galvanizers. He's got so much energy and passion for what we're doing or she can't hide her excitement or be careful, it's hard to resist his call to action or you can always count on her to get things going. You read those and you go, oh, that's Chris.

And you go, hey, Chris, this is you, right? And he's like, oh, yeah, I can't help it. And we're like, okay, good. because I actually don't like doing that. I can force myself to, but let's make that. Hey, get this, Ryan, we hired a 22-year-old kid, one of my son's best friends from college. We hired these two new college grads. He's 22. We put him on a team. We realize he takes the test. He's a galvanizer. And we're like, hey, you 22-year-old, the people on your team that are 30 and 40 and 50, they're not galvanizers. So we want you to keep them in line. And he's like, what? And they're like, yeah, keep us in line.

I don't care if you're 30 years younger than me, dude. You have this natural gift. It's your job. And just this morning, he was galvanizing a bunch of people older than him. Not because he's got experience or expertise, but he has this natural gift. And he's like, I love doing that. So it allows you to use the people around you better because you go, I didn't know you had that gift. I shouldn't do this just because I'm the boss. I'm the boss, but I have a few natural talents and I don't have these others. I'm going to let you do this for me. And suddenly everybody's using their gifts and they're coming to work feeling like, I'm doing what I'm meant to do. So. Final two. Let's get to the final two. Yes.

So the galvanizer is galvanized. Come on, everybody. And then it comes to the next genius, which we call the genius of enablement. And people that have this, it's totally a genius, but they don't think it is. These are the people that are very quick to say, I'll help you. Okay, I can, I'll come alongside. Let me know, what do you need from me? I'm enlisting.

I'm willing to join. People think that that's not a gift. They're like, I'm just nice or I'm just easily convinced. No, it's absolutely a genius. They're the kind of people that say, listen, I don't need to do it on my terms. I'm going to make myself available because I know you have a dream. I know you've rallied me to do this. And I'm willing to come alongside and do whatever is necessary to help you.

It is absolutely a genius. My wife has this and I don't. And I see it now. I look at my wife at home and I go, that genius of yours serves our family so well. And she has never recognized it as a genius. She thought, well, I'm just a mom. And it's like there are moms that don't do this naturally. And so they have to force themselves to and they get exhausted.

But when I say to my wife, I'll call her and I'll say, hey, five guys, friends are out of town or two families. And can they come over tonight for dinner? My wife will say, absolutely. Because the thought that she's making their life better and that she can comfort them and support them, and she'll round up a feast on a moment's notice. She did it one day. And I said, Laura, you did it too much.

And she said, but this is what I do. I love helping other people on their terms because that's the gift I have. And I thought, oh my gosh, I'm never going to criticize her or discourage. her from doing that because this is her God-given talent. And when people realize, oh, my gosh, this is a gift. Other people don't have it. Suddenly they're not feeling like, oh, I just do whatever people want. They're like, I'm an enabler. And by the way, that word enabler, we tend to think of it like, will you enable an alcoholic or a drug addict? No, no, no, 95% of the time. When you're enabling something good, it's one of the greatest gifts we have. Can I bring up a potential counter to this?

because I think playing the role of devil's advocate is part of what I try to do. Absolutely. So I think my wife shares this talent, this level of working genius similar to your wife, Laura. Miranda, the one potential criticism that comes from someone who is always there to help and is skilled and really good at it. So whatever it may be, at times that person, especially if they strike, to say no can have 935,000 things on their plate and it can get in the way of them doing whatever their job is. And my wife Miranda is this has happened from time to time where she'll get

asked to do something work wise or creatively or whatever it may be. And she's like, yes, yes, yes, yes. And they over commit. Yeah, they're overcommitted because they love the feeling of helping they're good at it. They want to do it. But then the problem is, They have way too much on their plate. And then that could potentially lead to problems. What about for that part of? I love this question. Because now my wife says, remember before I said, I have the genius of D discernment?

She now says, I need your D. Can you help me? I know that my 22 year old sons laugh at that. I think it sounds nasty. And I'm like, hey, you guys, it means something. But she says, I need you to discern for me whether or not, because I know I do this. hey, in our office, Amy, who's our general manager, she has a high D and E. And I'll go to her sometimes and I'll say, hey, I have this idea.

And she'll go, okay, I'm going to help you. And I go, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want your E right now. I want your discernment. And so we have this language now. Just because my wife is an enabler doesn't mean that every situation calls for her to use that. Yeah. And just because someone's a galvanizer doesn't mean they should galvanize.

every idea. What they need to do is turn to somebody and say, hey, I'm lacking in this area. My son, who works for me now, he came to me yesterday and said, Dad, I need your eye. And I was like, oh, good, I love to eye. But sometimes we're in a meeting and we're executing on something. I'm like, hey, I have an idea. And they're like, we don't want your eye right now. We're done with invention. We need some enablement. So it allows us to apply our geniuses in the right moment because nobody should just be using just their genius in every situation. Sometimes it's inappropriate. Yeah. Okay. And the final one. The final one is the genius of tenacity because the enabler, as you said, they're, I mean, as we talked about it,

they love to help people. But they don't necessarily love to finish things because they're really responding to the human needs of another person. The person who has the genius of tenacity, they're motivated by getting things done, by finishing, by seeing the impact of the work. And they're going to be the ones that say, hey, I realize this is no longer novel or interesting and we're ready to move on to something else. But it's not done. And if it's not done, it's not going to have the impact we need. I like to complete things and cross them off the list and know that we've done it well. And so now we realize we have people in our office that have genius of enablement, they'll support anything. But once they don't see the human need there,

they'll move on to something else. We need somebody with the T, the genius of tenacity. And that's one of yours. Yes. So I want to transition to our assessments. And we'll start with mine, which you've introduced my two areas, which are discernment and tenacity. And tell me how that plays and the advantages of having those as be my two working types of genius. So, and this totally makes sense given what you do. You're a curator of information. We almost called it the genius of curation, but there's more than that. But curation is you look at all the stuff going on in the world and you make sense of it. And you don't do it through a spread. You don't do it through a spreadsheet or data. You go, where does this fit and how does this

go together and what's interesting and what needs to be discussed? I mean, you do this every time you do do a podcast or you write. You're using discernment to decide what's interesting, what's important, what do people need to hear, how much of it do they need? It's a real gift that a super linear thinker struggles with sometimes. And so you have this interpretive way of integrating things, and that's what you do, which makes sense. And that's why people listen to your podcast, and I love to talk to you because you're looking at the world and you're saying, hey, what about this? What about this? This is interesting. This might be useful. And people trust your discernment, right?

If I talked to you and you said, hey, I saw this movie, Pat, I think you're going to love it. I would really trust that because you get me and you get movies, you get culture. So that's what you do. But then the discernment, you also have the genius of tenacity,

which means you like to get stuff done. The world is full of people that go, I'd love to do a podcast. I have a lot of good ideas. But, ma, and they might try it. And the first day it didn't, go so well or if you and you're like no I'm going to keep doing it because I like finishing I like

proving that it can be done I like seeing the impact I'm not going to stop you know I was a screenwriter before I did my current thing for fun after college and everybody said and I wrote like a number of screenplays in Hollywood I got some of them read and everything else and people said you know everybody is writing a screenplay and I was like yeah but very few people finish them and so you're a finisher. I'm not. I had to force myself to do that. And I have people around me who are finishers who say, well, like when I write a book, Ryan, at the end of the book, the ending is always bad. Because I'm like, okay, and then they died. And then people are like, no, no, no, we're going to make you finish. And so my editor is like, no, I need a better ending. And I'm not

letting you stop until you give me one. Interesting. So are these, do you believe these are just innate talents or are they so is it something that we can work to develop because let's say somebody's listening and they're hearing the six and are like I want to be tenacious. I don't know if I am. I have a track record of not finishing, but I want that. I want that. So what do you, how do you view that?

I think it's innate. Okay. And we have to learn to do things well that we don't like, but we can't put ourselves in a position to make our success and our happiness in life predicated on that. So I grew up in a family. My dad was a T. He was a finisher. And he valued that. And I learned to, I wanted my dad's approval. And let me tell you something. I had a 4.0 in high school. I had no business having a 4.0, but I did it because I wanted to prove to my dad that I could. I never missed a class in college. I cleaned my room. I had a little bit of OCD. There was all kinds of things that went into me

looking like a T. When I finally got into the world and I said, but this isn't making me happy. And I realized that was unnatural. And when I got my first job out of college and all they wanted me to do was tea things, and I hated it because I realized, am I going to do this for the rest of my life? And so, yes, we can't overcome it. And for a short period of time or in a given situation or in our first job, maybe we want to be successful, but there's no goodness in life swimming against your natural grain.

And that natural grain, I'm sure was God-given. And I was born, when I was a little kid, I was doing the things I love to do now. What about people who are hiring for leadership positions? So a senior leader is hiring managers to run a team or run teams. Are there specific types of working genius that they should look for? Or it's not about that. It's about just being aware of what it is and then pouring into that. Because I'm, I think that the shorter version of that question is, do certain types of working genius make better leaders?

And the answer is no. And you hit the nail on the head, as I would expect you to. And that is it's awareness and tapping into people's strengths. And what I really would say is it gets back to humble, hungry, and smart, you know, the ideal team player. And a leader should be humble, realize that the people that work for me are more important than I am and I'm serving them. They're hungry. I really want us to accomplish a lot. And smart, I get people.

Now, but if I'm like in my case, I needed to surround myself with more G's because I was burning myself out because I was galvanizing all the time. Having said that, there are certain types that like if you're managing a lot of program like projects and your job is to make sure that you're getting people to do things that they wouldn't normally do, I would, I might look at it and say, hey, I'm looking for a GT in that one. But then again, but if I'm hiring a creative, leader, and we're working with the CEO right now who's a wonderer inventor. So he likes to look at the world. What's wrong? Oh, I came up with an idea. The ideas aren't always right. He doesn't love to rally people around them. He just loves to invent them. And he realized why his company is struggling.

This is a big famous company. He's like, oh my gosh, I don't like to discern or galvanize. So he thinks it goes from invent, he was thinking it goes from invention to tenacity. And it never does. I think one of the things, Pat, one of the mistakes I made as a newer manager, but you could still make this if you're not aware enough of it, even if your experience is I was attracted to people like me. I got promoted from being a good sales rep and I just wanted to hire 15 people exactly like me. Sure. And I didn't realize like to how stupid that is initially. It took some time and some mistakes and failure in order to get better at realizing the value of surrounding myself with people who are. different. How does one go about understanding that aspect of, okay, I'm a discernment guy,

because for me, I really value what I'm good at. I mean, surprise, surprise, we probably all do. Like, I want a tenacious person. I want someone who's going to get stuff done because I obviously value that. I try my best to do that constantly. So if I see someone who doesn't have that, it could potentially be a turnoff, which could be a problem as a leader, because I need to surround myself to have a better, more well-rounded team. For that person who's kind of going through this in their mind, what advice do you have for them? Well, what I would say is this, part of what the, and I totally understand where you're coming from, part of it is to realize tenacity is one of those things that we tend to look at a person and say it's a virtue. Like you're disciplined and you're

hardworking and you're dependable. And certainly everybody should be disciplined, hardworking, and dependable, but not everybody has the natural gift of that. And so for you, and this is one of the most powerful parts of this model, is it allows us not to judge, because you might very well need somebody who's got the gift of wonder and enablement to partner with you. But they don't necessarily finish things. And you might be able to look at them and go, oh, wow, they have genius. They're just not naturally gifted at that. And they know it. they're humble enough to admit it. And so rather than me saying they're flaky, which it's so tempting to do that, you go, oh, no, they need somebody next to them kind of crack in the whip a

little bit and saying, hey, let's keep going. And the difference between looking at them as having a fault that is frustrating or them not having an area of genius that needs to be supported or helped is very different. And so what I would say is you probably need people that don't have the same genius as you do to fill in the gaps. Now, but if they're not humble, hungry, or smart, then that's beyond their genius. That's just they're not that humble, hungry, or smart. So one of the biggest, and this is the important point, Ryan, I don't think I was very articulate there. We will allow ourselves not to judge others because of their genius once we know what their geniuses are. We will also allow ourselves not to judge ourselves and feel guilty.

Can you imagine for years I felt like a total sloth for not loving tenacity? But I powered myself to do it and I actually talked myself into a job and put myself in a career and kept saying, why don't I like to do this? And finally, I was like, oh, that's just not me. I thought tenacity and enablement were virtues. They're actually gifts. Now, does that mean when my wife asked, me to help her with something, I can say, honey, I'm not an enabler. I'm like, no, suck it up, dude, and help her. But just no, I don't love when she says, we have to clean the garage this weekend. I don't go, yeah, tell me what you need to do, because I'll go, hey, you know, you could hire somebody to do that. Pat, in the world that we work in, people, because some deem this stuff's soft

skills, right? And so, anything but. Exactly, right? They should be renamed essentially. skills, but still, at times can be, we want tangible results. We want to make transformations. And I sense that your excitement and your team's excitement about this is because you firmly believe it will have transformative impacts on leaders and teams and businesses as a whole. You've just started kind of putting this into play. What are some of the early pieces of feedback? You mentioned the one CEO who's crying and others. What are some of the early pieces of feedback you're getting as you're taking it from a theory and putting it into practice. Well, that's what's so fun, getting reports back. And at first, we started with people we knew.

And we were like, let's see if this is accurate. And it was like, holy Toledo. People that I hadn't seen in years, they would go, hey, this guy just sent it. What do you think he is? And I'd be like, I think he's this, this. And they're like, that's true. Now we're in the place where we're looking at people's reactions. And they're like, I didn't realize. This makes total sense to me and I understand now why I failed in that job or why my team was successful or how we need to reorient our team. So the light bulb's going. But I want to go back to something because you were talking about, we were talking about the, you know, the Ohio football teams and Joe Burrow. Imagine two quarterbacks who have different kinds of working genius. Imagine like, like I'm guessing

that Peyton Manning was probably a pretty good D, a discerner. Like he would go to the line of scrimmage and just look at things and go, I see a pattern. here. I think I know what these people are going to do. I'm going to audible on this play because I know this pattern. It's not a linear thing like if the guy's standing right there, it's more like game situation, where's everybody at? Okay, I'm going to call this play and I think I'm going to get that. That's a totally different kind of quarterback to one that's just an enablement tenacity quarterback who's like, I'm going to do whatever the coaches say and I'm going to work out harder and I'm going to be disciplined. You don't send that guy to the line of scrimmage to

audible eyes as much. You have a great offensive coordinator who's teaching him what to do. And this guy is like, you're a joystick and he's like the best avatar on the field. Right. Then there's an inventive one that's like, I need to be in the room with the offensive coordinator designing the plays. I mean, look at head coaches in the NFL. I mean, like, we have this guy, Shanahan, who's in San Francisco, who's a great inventor, but I really don't think he's good in the crunch at calling the plays. I don't think he's a great discerner. He designs these world-class offenses that are amazing, but I think he needs somebody calling the plays on the field.

Everything we do in life, we need to be doing it in a way that speaks to our geniuses and bringing people in to fill in the gaps where we don't have it. It sounds like one of the skills we need is how to be collaborative with a group to have people like you said fill in. So maybe a guy like Shanahan, who you're right, and I've talked to NFL quarterbacks who talk about his prowess as a play designer, that he has a trusted advisor that's either calling the plays or at a minimum really helping him call the plays when it's the heat of the moment. You're looking at the clock.

There's crazy stuff happening when he's out of his zone or his type of working genius. It feels like that's what you're saying. Absolutely. You know, Norv Turner is a friend of mine. He was a coach for years. And when he was on the with the Cowboys, Jimmy Johnson was the head coach. Norv Turner was the offensive coordinator And was it Wonstat

Dave Wonstat was the defensive coordinator, I think He was a defensive guy at one point, yeah Yeah, I think he was their defense court When they won all their Super Bowls But Jimmy Johnson was the CEO of the team Right He completely turned over the design and play calling to Norv Now, then there's these coaches in the league today

That are married to the play calling sheet And essentially what they are is head coaches But they're really offensive coordinators Right And the thing is there's more than one way to skin a cat There's more than one way to be a CEO. There's more than one way to be a principal of a school or a pastor of a church. And there's more than one way to be a head coach.

But if you don't know what your genius is and you don't find people that are geniuses in areas that you're not, it's not going to be a collaborative effort. And you said that's why we call it working genius. It's discover your gifts so that you can fit onto a team and get things done. Do you intend to work a lot with sports? I mean, obviously the intersection of leadership in sports is like perfect for me. It's what I love the most. remember Spolster wrote us the coach of the heat who who knows by the time this comes out

a friend of mine too yeah he may be winning a championship but um wouldn't that be awesome yeah i mean his seems so fun to watch um do you intend to really hopefully have this be a part of of your businesses to continue working with sports teams to help them with their types of working genius you know we think this has application in every field yeah we think teachers need to figure out are you my son's girlfriend is becoming a teacher. And when I did this with her, she wants to teach third grade. And she's a D.E,

which means she's a discerner, which means she can look at the kids and go, what does this kid need to learn versus this kid? She's not like a cookie cutter, but she's an E. She loves to respond to their needs. And she was like, this is the perfect job for me.

And before that, she was like, should I be a school teacher? Why am I going into this? And I'm like, no, this is, not only should you be a school teacher, but you should teach younger kids that you need to figure out how they learn and you need to provide that love and responsiveness to them. And she's like, yes, this is the career I want.

Whereas a college professor might not want to be that way or a researcher because education to them might be more about invention or it might be more about, you know, so anyway, I think this belongs. I think this applies to sports and teams. I think it applies to education. I think it applies to family. My wife and I, there's only two, until they've approved polygamy, which is probably coming soon, but there's only two of us, so we only have two spouses covering four geniuses. And two of our geniuses are similar. So we have two areas of complete blindness in our family. And we looked back at our marriage and said, oh, every argument we had, every stress we had was because we have no tea. We have no tenacity. And we'd be like, I thought,

you were going to do that. Oh, I thought you were going to do that. I think that may be more common. Well, and Laura always says, we need one more spouse in the family who has G&T. I don't know. No, I'm not advocating polygamy. I'm with you. I live in California, so it's just days away. This is, let's get into the process for a second. This is backwards, or at least it feels to me, because normally I see the book and then everything else is after. Now the concept, the ideas, they're out there before the book. And so a couple questions. One, interesting and I'm curious as to what it was about this that made it be reversed.

And two, will you write it as a fable? I am writing it as a fable. Okay. And we didn't reverse because we wanted to get the model out there. Honestly, the idea that people were in jobs where they didn't have their genius, and that they were suffering. I thought, I'm not going to wait for a book to come out.

It'll be a year and a half before this takes effect. We think people can do this quickly and do it right away. And in fact, I want people that hear this to go, and there's a discount, right? We're going to do a 50% discount for your listeners. Yeah. And I want them to go take this,

take 10 minutes to take it, another 10 minutes or 15 minutes to read through the report and really learn it and think about how to apply it. Then I want them to go talk to their spouse, their friends, their coworkers, their brothers and sisters, because they're going to look back at life and they're going to go, oh my gosh, no wonder I did this, you know. And we want people to just start using it and applying it. In a half hour, a person can take this, go through the results and start to implement from the insights that they have. It's working genius.com. And the code is Hawk, H-A-W-K for 50% off. Cody gave that to me, Pat, earlier. And so I went and took it. to prepare for this. And I actually enjoyed taking the assessment. And I got the, I got the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, during my prep. And, um, it, it, it, it is helpful to understand. And it makes so much sense,

especially, I'm having Miranda actually take the test. I have an idea. Oh, I can't wait to hear what your wife is. But I'm going to have she, because I think this is partially, because sometimes, you know, people say, like, why does your relationship work? And you can list some things, but I think, part. But I think, Part of it is because we are a good match in the fact that we have different types of working genius. Similar to you and Laura, I think that there may be a little bit of overlap, but we have different things where we're innately born to do that we like doing, that we're good at doing. And because of those kind of the complementary parts and aspects to us, it seems to make it work better than if, it wasn't that way. Yeah, that's not why you have a good marriage. You have a good marriage because

you're committed to one other and sacrifice and put the other person first. Yes. But if there's, if you, if you have complementarity in your working geniuses and you appreciate your differences, yeah. And you're aware of where you have blind spots and you work together to fill those in, that can make it just so much less friction oriented. Yeah. So true. And, and even though my wife and I've known each other for, we've been married for 28 years. When once, until we did this, we didn't realize, oh my gosh, that comes up all the time. And now my wife will say, I know you're not a galvanizer, but I need you to galvanize this. And then I can kind of put on my armor and go, okay, I'm, I can do this, you know, as opposed to

if every day she comes and says, galvanize the family, galvanize the family, because now I'll say to her, I need you to galvanize the kids around their homework tonight. I'm just beat. And she's like, oh, okay, I know what you mean. Love it. Well, I would encourage everyone to do this. WorkingGenius.com, use the code hawk, 50% off, get the assessment, and then email me. You can email me, Ryan, at learning leader.com, and I want to hear about it because I'm excited for this, how it impacts teams. Pat, how you and I can work together and help people as they do this. I'm certainly committed that. I have already, you know,

Cody and I had a long, good talk about that. So I'm into this in a big way. I wouldn't have done this episode if I wasn't, Pat, because I would have waited until your book came out. But I'm, I'm really into this. And I'm excited that you're getting this out there to help so many people. Very good. I mean, I am, this is the most exciting thing I think we've ever done. We've been in business for 23, almost 24 years. And we, that CEO who did it and cried, said, Pat, I think this is going to be bigger than the five dysfunctions of a team. That's so cool. Can you do one minute or two minutes on Joe Burrow, why he's the ideal team player. I'm in, I'm in Southwest Ohio. I love Joe Burrow. He's an Ohio guy. He grew up in Athens, which is where I went to college, Athens,

Ohio. Come on. Give me a little bit of ideal team player with him. Well, the key is humility is a paradox, right? You have to, but it's not about lacking confidence. He's got swag. He's got swag, he's got swag, but it's not about him. It's about what he can do. And he doesn't seem to take himself that seriously. Right. As a result, after his first game, when he played great,

second game played even better. I mean, yeah, yeah. You know, look back at Johnny Mansell, you know, and poor guy. But so another guy with, you know,

a Heisman trophy winner coming out of college. And, but he had confidence, but it was cockiness. Right. And there wasn't humility. Right.

And that's the thing about Burrow. You can tell he wants to win. He's not about his persona, but he feels like he knows he's good at what he does. And, you know, it was so interesting watching him play. And I'm really enjoying him. I'm rooting for him because he doesn't seem like it's about him. And I think as the quarterback, too, you have to have a bit of the moxie and the swagger to get other, because you're the,

the emotional thermostat for the team as leader are on most teams. And so they look to him, even as a young guy, and it's so great to see the composure. And certainly he's making. plays, which in the NFL, you got it. You just got to make the throws, make the plays, convert third and fourth downs. And I think that's what's exciting to be because you do still sense this humble, hungry, smart type of a person. And I'm excited. I hope they can surround them with some guys to protect them. But I'm excited to see the future of him here in Cincinnati. Yeah, offensive line. They should just keep drafting and trading for offensive linemen. Yes. Anyway, Pat, I could talk all your stuff.

all day. Thank you so much again, man. Again, it's working genius.com code hawk for 50% off. Anything else I miss? You want to hit before we go? No, just get back to me about what your wife's type is, what hurts straight. I'm going to. I'll hover take it. I'll hover take it and then we'll make this happen. Thanks so much, man. I always, I always love catching up. Let's look forward to the next one already. All right. God bless. Yep. All right, to close this one out, I'm going to answer another question I received via email. This one came from Jeff. Jeff is a senior engineer at Facebook. Jeff asked, Ryan, of the people that you've interviewed or met on your learning journey, can you talk about a couple of the most impressive slash inspiring ones and a learnable

skill they do well that stands out? I like this question, Jeff. Thank you for asking. It is tough to narrow it down to just a few people, but I'll do my best. First, I will say, I did a live show in Columbus, Ohio earlier in the year with the great Jenny Britton Bauer. Jenny is the founder of Jenny's splendid ice creams. And in the middle of our conversation, there was a quote that really jumped out at me. And she said, as a leader, you need to create a craveable reason to return. Create a craveable reason to return. Now, on the surface, you could say, well, of course, she makes ice cream.

She wants to make people crave that ice cream so they'll come back. And certainly there is truth to that, but it goes beyond just creating ice cream that people crave. It's an experience. It's a feeling. And as leaders, we all should be thinking about how are we creating craveable reasons to return, whether it's the people on our team, our customers, collaborators within our business, clients that we're working with, outside consultant. might be helpful for our business. What are we doing to create a craveable reason to return?

Set another way. What are we doing to add value to the lives of others? If you continually focus on bringing value to others, that is creating a craveable reason to return. And that should be a question you ask yourself every single day. What am I doing to add value to others? Next, I will talk about Scott Belski. Fascinating conversation. We did that one when Scott was in the back of a taxi cab. The whole conversation, it was brilliant. Scott is an incredible leader.

And during it, I asked him what he looks for when hiring a leader. And he gave me an answer that really piqued my curiosity. And I've since repeated it many times. And that is, he looks for someone who is more interesting each time. he speaks with him. He wants to surround himself with fascinating people. The type of people who are purposeful in their endeavors and what they do. The type of people who are constantly seeking other interesting people, seeking interesting

experiences, creating a great life, stories for themselves to tell and to retell. People who are curious, people who are learning, people who are seeking knowledge. Those are the types that are more interesting each time, Sky. meets with them. And that really hit me because I want to be that type of person. And I want to surround myself with those types of people. And so I would have you ask yourself, how am I becoming a more interesting person each day? And one of the quickest ways to do this, or I guess one of the ways to do this, in order to be

interesting, be interested, meaning be curious, ask questions, seek out people who are dynamic who are doing fascinating things talk with them meet with them surround yourselves with those types of people and that is one way you could become more interesting and i i think that's something for all of us to think about uh next there's so many to choose but i guess i would say kirk herb street kirk is a fellow senatoral elk i am as well uh we both played quarterback there and uh kirk is now uh the premier preeminent voice of college football who works for espn't for those you don't know. Kirk's been doing it for 20 plus years. He was probably the best broadcaster in college football within the first five years on the job. And what I love most about Kirk is his

attention to detail and his love of the process, of the preparation process. He ensures that he is the most prepared analysts every single week. And it shows, his work. He's constantly having conversations with coaches, players, people who are in the know when it comes to his craft, which is college football, and he never stops. And you sense he has this genuine love, curiosity, and obsession with his work. And that inspires me. He was doing exactly what he should be doing. And he never takes anything for granted. He's constantly working to get better and better and better and it shows and that's inspiring to me i guess if i'd name one more i'll go i'll go back to one of the legends of this show episode 78 the great cat

cole courage and confidence combined with curiosity and humility is what equals productive achievers having those four qualities equally balanced courage and confidence mixed with curiosity and humility is what excellence is all about. And that's something I strive to have on the left side to be courageous, to stand up for what I believe in, to be confident, to think about the times that I've created positive momentum for myself where success has happened so I can do it again and again. But at the same time, the other side is balanced with curiosity and humility, meaning I don't have it all figured out. I'm still trying to learn, still growing, still need the help of others. And when those are in equal weight, good things will probably happen.

Once again, thank you, the loyal listeners, for continuing to spread the good word, telling a friend or two. You should listen to the Learning Leader Show. I think it could help you. Because you continue to do that, you give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be. grateful. Thank you so much. Talk with you soon. Can't wait.