The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 393: Chris Holtmann - How To Lead With Conviction (Don't Be Afraid To Pursue Growth)

Starting point is 00:00:00 I read this Shakespeare quote, he who would be calm must first put on the appearance of calm. And I've had people say to me, boy, you seem really calm out there. I think there is a, right, a correlation between your ability to remain calm in a moment that is challenging and your ability to respond the right way

Starting point is 00:00:22 and those around you responding the right way. So it's a challenge for all of us. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. presented by Rixie and Meyer. I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text learners to 4422. In order to join tens of thousands of learning leaders from all over the world.

Starting point is 00:00:53 Receive Mindful Monday updates. What I'm reading, writing, watching, thinking about. Also give you more details about how my book, Welcome to Management will help you become a. more effective leader. Text learners to 4-4-2-2-2. Now on to tonight's featured leader. It's a great one.

Starting point is 00:01:15 Chris Holman, head coach of Ohio State University's men's basketball team. He has an incredible career path that I think will be beneficial for you to hear, especially when he left a head coaching job after earning an eight-year contract to be an assistant coach at another school. I will not spoil the story, but Chris goes into detail and describes why he did it and how making a move like this could be beneficial for someone like you. Additionally, we focused on the coach he most looks up to and why. He shares more about his unpublished essay titled, Don't Be Afraid to Pursue Growth. And he shares what he looks for when recruiting someone to join his team, players and

Starting point is 00:02:16 coaches. This one is incredible. Ladies and gentlemen, it's the great Chris Holtman. It's great to be here, Ryan. I've been a regular listener, really for a couple years now. And I've recommended this podcast to my staff. It really has been, I think, something that whether it's a long run or a workout and now the home gym, I've really enjoyed listening to all your podcasts and learned a lot.

Starting point is 00:02:52 Well, it means a lot to me. I remember I got that first DM from you on Twitter in May of earlier this year. It says, Ryan, I don't think we've met, but just want to let you know, I've really enjoyed listening to your podcast the past couple years. It's outstanding stuff. Key up the great work. Hope you are well and safe. And just getting that out of the blue was so meaningful to me because your guy I've looked up to.

Starting point is 00:03:19 I've befriended and done events with your agent, Jason Belzer, who, by the way, I had a like a 90-minute conversation with him to prepare for this, Chris, to say like, hey, tell me some stuff I can't find on the internet. help me out. And I got to tell you, man, if I was a college basketball coach or a player or anybody, there is no one I would rather have representing me than Jason Bellsard. That dude, he loves you, man. Like he truly, truly, it's not just, he's not just your agent. He doesn't just represent you. He truly has a love and care for you. And that's the type of person I would want representing me, man. So you've got like the best agent in the world. he's he's been great you know he's been great right Ryan it's an interesting deal because and I know we'll get into this but

Starting point is 00:04:08 he and I came together at a time when I wasn't a real coveted guy when it comes to agents wanting a guy with with my resume so he and I were together in the early stages of my career and I think what he's shown over over time is a friendship and a consistency and a he's been he's been great in terms of advising, but it's not always been about career decisions. So, yeah, I'm glad you connected with Jason, and he's terrific. He similarly to you reached out to me years ago and said some kind things about how I interviewed and then asked me to come to the final four to interview coach John Calapari.

Starting point is 00:04:52 So talk about feeling the, I don't know how well you and Coach Cal know each other, but that guy, so we were in a room with like 150 coaches and athletic directors at the final four a couple years ago in Minneapolis. And I don't know if I've ever felt somebody own a room like that guy. I mean, everybody deferred to him. And there were some big, big time athletic directors and coaches in this place. And it was like Cal was the guy. I mean, it blew me away just how everyone just kind of deferred to him is crazy. Owning the room's a great way to put it when you talk to Coach Cal.

Starting point is 00:05:31 And I've got to know him a little bit. We're not friends. We actually played last year. He's incredible. And what he does, I've said this for a while. If God ever, you know, when God was putting the, the, creating the perfect basketball coach at the University of Kentucky, it's Coach Cal. He embodies everything you need in that position. And he's, he's, he's, he's,

Starting point is 00:05:58 really good for our game too. He's really good for our game. I want to talk about another coach that I know is really meaningful to you. So growing up, you played basketball at a small Christian school called Taylor University in Upland, Indiana, and you played for a coach named Paul Patterson. And in an article I read, you were quoted as saying, I think the core of who I am as a coach comes from him. What was it about coach Paul Patterson that built your core? And, you were and what are some of the key learnings you've taken from him? You know, I think when we all reflect back on our career or growing up or some really impactful times in our lives,

Starting point is 00:06:40 we are looking at times that have often been the most challenging. And that was certainly my experience playing for Coach Patterson at Taylor University. You know, one of my favorite articles is David Brooks, wrote an article a few years ago about thick versus thin organizations. And when I reflect back on my time as a basketball player at Taylor University, I think about this thick organization that David Brooks communicates in that article, how to leave a mark on people. And it was, again, the most challenging time period of my life.

Starting point is 00:07:22 I was asked to do things and respond to challenging situations in ways that I hadn't been previously. And there was a constant focus on the process before committing to the process became a buzzword in business and in athletics. He would say, do today well, this was back in the early 90s. And that's, that embodies a commitment to the process as much as anything. And he would say simple things like do today well, don't compare yourself to other people that sounded almost these John Wooden type of really simple phrases that now as you get older, you find the really profound truth. But it had an instrumental impact on my life. And I don't think there's any, it's not a coincidence that the people that have played for him have went on to have really successful. post-college careers in medicine, business, the ministry, college coaching.

Starting point is 00:08:30 It's because of our time there and what I believe was kind of a thick organization that was about real, real personal growth. You have a unique career and coaching path. You eventually become the head coach at Gardner Webb. and it's hard to get a head coaching job, and you earned that job. And then you make the decision to leave a head coaching position to become an assistant coach at Butler. And if you're okay, coach, I would love to read a small part of a paragraph in an unpublished

Starting point is 00:09:12 essay that you have written that I hope you published soon. I'm happy to help. Sure. You have plenty of places to publish it. But the title of the essay is called Don't Be Afraid to Pursue Growth. And you're talking about your decision-making process, which I'm going to ask you to fully flesh out. But I wanted to read this paragraph first because it just really struck me. And you said, as I debated, I realized that I couldn't blame myself for craving stability.

Starting point is 00:09:43 It was only human nature, after all. We are drawn by the soft voice of consent. consistency, the allure of a warm blanket of security in our jobs and lives. And while many of us willingly, happily give in to living within the status quo, the reality is that the world around us rarely remains motionless. The sun rises and sets. The seasons pass and the world keeps moving and changing. It is only as we grow older and look back at life that we realize all that we have missed, all that we could have accomplished. had we simply pushed ourselves to break free of our fears.

Starting point is 00:10:27 Describe to me how you make decisions and what you were thinking at that time in your life. When you were a head coach, you'd made it to be one of the few, and you left to be an assistant coach at Butler. Well, listen, it was a really, I appreciate you sharing that, Ryan. And it was a really, it was a really challenging decision. So you're exactly right. I think my dream, even as a small college player and then small college coach, was to be a division one head coach. And I spent two years at Ohio University, which you have some experience with. And I spent two years there as an assistant working for John Gross and then left to be a head coach at Gardner Webb.

Starting point is 00:11:13 We had a massive rebuild. We were there. Our third year, we had we had flip. the program and had had a 21, 20-win season for the first time in school history at the Division I level. And I was faced with this really challenging decision. I had just signed a new contract for five years. I had the blessing of my athletic director and a president who I really believed in. And I believe that the direction of our program was headed in a really positive way. So this wasn't a decision that was made based on any discontent with where I was at in regards to a contract. But I really did feel like this opportunity at Butler. And I had done some soul searching and even in my third year and wondering about the challenges of coaching at a higher

Starting point is 00:12:13 level. And as you know, there are tears in college athletics. We understand that there are tears in college basketball. And while I had excitement about where we were at at Gardner Webb, I felt like that this opportunity was one that would really challenge me in a real personal and professional way and potentially, no guarantees, potentially open up opportunity. that would be exciting. But there were no guarantees to that. I could in three or four years after Butler be looking at a job

Starting point is 00:12:52 similar to the one I was leaving at Gardner Webb. So that was a real risk. And I pulled about eight to 10 coaches that I trust and respect and ask them what they would do in my situation and laid out the entire scenario. And it was split, Ryan. It was split down the middle.

Starting point is 00:13:16 But it was, I think the final, there was a final coach I talked to, pushed it into staying. So it was weighted towards staying. And I just decided at that moment that I was going to pursue what I felt like I needed to pursue, which was growth for myself and our family. And it certainly has worked out in a really, unique way. But I'm excited about it.

Starting point is 00:13:47 The back story to that is two years earlier, Brad Stevens at the time was the coach at Butler. And after my first year at Gardner Webb, he and I talked about coming. He invited me to come as an assistant at that time after my first year at Gardner Web. And I did not feel in my heart that it was the right time to leave given the commitment that I had made to the athletic director and the president because the program had not been, I had not followed through enough on my commitment of turning the program around. Three years later, I felt like it was in a great place and was ready for the next coach. One aside real quick, since you mentioned his name, Brad Stevens is regularly recognized

Starting point is 00:14:40 as one of the greatest basketball coaches in the world. Now he's a coach of the Boston Celtics. What is it about him that makes him so great at coaching? Extremely curious learner. Incredible curiosity. And a much like you see with any gifted leader, I think he has tremendous EQ, a great feel for,

Starting point is 00:15:15 people and connecting with people. And I think as you've seen a guy who had tremendous success in college and has now transitioned to really good success in one of the most iconic sports franchises in the entire world, that's a hard transition to make. I think he's leaned on his incredible hunger for learning, curiosity, and he's got an emotional intelligence that I think is really high. So you get to Butler and you expect to hopefully be a head coach for a few years and see where that could potentially lead.

Starting point is 00:15:58 And then what happens? You know, after one year, we had a really hard situation that happened with our head coach where he took a medical leave of absence. So we're 15 minutes, excuse me, 15 months, our families, 15 months into our move from Boiling Springs, North Carolina at Gardner Webb to Indian at Butler. We had had a challenging first year in the Big East. We had moved to a larger basketball conference called the Big East. We went 14 and 17 and I believe 4 and 14 in the Big East.

Starting point is 00:16:40 So my first year as an assistant. at that level was quite the eye-opener, Ryan. And real quick, were you doubting yourself and your decision? What was I thinking? I should have stayed at Gardner-Web. We turned it around and now I'm a part of a losing program. At times, yes. At times, yes.

Starting point is 00:17:03 It was a harder transition than I anticipated. I think it's always a hard transition when you move from head coach to assistant. there's an adjustment that has to be made there. It almost never happens at least by choice. It may happen because you get fired and then you go be an assistant until you get the next head job. But I just have a hard time even remembering times when people have chosen to do it, especially with the long-term contract, the buy-in of the president and the AD,

Starting point is 00:17:32 and then making that choice. I have to think that makes you really have some of those tough nights where you reconsider or think, did I? did I mess this up? Sure. Those are real. Yeah, I had those thoughts, all of them, conversations with my wife, absolutely. And I believed in Brandon Miller, the guy was working for very much.

Starting point is 00:17:54 So that helped alleviate some of those concerns. I did really believe in his and in his ability, which is so important, right, when you're working for someone. I had a strong level of belief, but absolutely, I had concerns about how quickly this was maybe going to transition in my mind the way I had hoped it would to a different opportunity as a head coach. And I had several doubting moments, I think as much as anything. I tried to accept the fact that this is the move that we had made and we were going to find our way through it in a really positive way. But yeah, I had those moments of doubt.

Starting point is 00:18:36 and then even more so when the summer rolls around after our first year, and we have some health concerns with our boss, the guy we all came to Indianapolis to work for. So I think I had even more concerns then about, you know, one of the guys that eventually became my assistant would, he loves to laugh at a story of coming in during the summer to my, office and seeing see in my head in my hands. And he stood there for upwards of two to three minutes. And I had the same reaction for two to three minutes. You know, I was really struggling

Starting point is 00:19:19 with just all of it. And it's a, it's a really tragic story in one way. And yet there's some real redemption behind it for our players and our staff and in that program. What's the tragic part of it? I think just that you see someone that you care about go through health concerns and health issues. Well, because of that, you then get thrust into becoming initially at least the interim head coach. What's going through your mind in that moment when you got promoted? I would imagine it had to be better sweet considering your boss had had some issues he was dealing with. but now you're the guy.

Starting point is 00:20:08 Yeah, so I was in Boston recruiting and got the call from my eventual boss, Barry Caller. You're one of a fantastic athletic director at Butler University. And he said, I need you to get on a plane tonight. And I said, I'm not sure if I can't. He goes, I need you to get on a plane tonight. We have one of the largest speaking engagements that you're going to need to fill in for, Phil Brandon and for it was a large speaking engagement in Indianapolis. It was at the 9 o'clock the next morning.

Starting point is 00:20:43 So I got on a plane and spoke and he said, you're going to be named the interim head coach. We'll see what happens moving forward. So I got on the plane, had that speaking. And it was literally as much as possible what I referred to that I heard from from my college coach. And that is so much swirling around, much as we have in today's day,

Starting point is 00:21:11 there's so much swirling around us that there had to be a level of focus and concentration on the day-to-day and the most important day-to-day responsibilities, which was our players, health, and our staff, and moving the program in a positive direction on a day to day. Beyond that, there were no, I certainly had conversations eventually with my boss about

Starting point is 00:21:43 what this would mean potentially, but we tried to really have as much focus on the day to day during that time period. And then it certainly ended up working out really, really well. What were the keys to going from your first year, your team had a losing record? you go through really challenging times with your head coach having issues, you getting promoted, you going from interim to then becoming, the interim tag was removed, and you were just the head coach, and then your team is back to Butler. I really remember Gordon Hayward barely missing that shot from half court off the backboard

Starting point is 00:22:24 in the rim, losing to Duke in the national championship game, really put Butler on the map, at least for a guy like me, a Midwest guy who watches a lot of basketball. And so you had a little law your first year and now you bring them back. What were the keys to come out of that law as you become the head coach? Well, first of all, I would say point to the health of our best player. He was out the previous year. So that's an obvious young man named Roosevelt, Jones. that's obvious.

Starting point is 00:22:59 Well, it's funny. I was in the audience once, coach, and I'm sure you know him, but the speaker was Urban Meyer. And somebody said, coach, what's the, you know, what's been the keys to you guys? This is after I think Zeke and them had won a title and at Ohio State. And he's like, what's the key to you guys winning and doing all this? And he's like, well, it's really three things. And I was like on the edge of my seat.

Starting point is 00:23:24 He kind of paused. And he goes, it was, it's recruiting. And it's recruiting. and it's recruiting. He basically just said, like, we got to get the guys. We have such a great staff. Once we get them, they're going to be coached up and be really good. But basically, we got to get the guys.

Starting point is 00:23:39 So you saying that about your best player made me think of being in the audience from Irvin was speaking that one day. Any coach will tell you that, right? Any great manager, business manager, yourself, you know, your ability to hire great talent. And I know we'll get into that is essential. for you to, for your entire team to perform at the highest level. So health was the biggest, biggest factor.

Starting point is 00:24:07 So we basically, you know, it was a really unique situation because it was around August that I was given the interim. Or actually, it was later than that. It was September, October that I was officially given the interim tag. And then,

Starting point is 00:24:21 as I said, we focused on the day-to-day process, really committing to how we wanted to play, which was going to be a little bit different. different than the guy, than Brandon, just naturally. A lot of similarities, but a little bit different. So implementing that, I think we had tremendous buy-in, which took some time from our players because they were a little shook up as well.

Starting point is 00:24:45 So tremendous buy-in, we really tried to be relationship-driven. And we tried to block out everything else. I know, you know, I had an assistant coach who would ask me, hey, have you had a conversation yet with with barry who was my boss the athletic director about getting the job what it's going to take to get the job you know he had he had two beautiful young girls um another staff member who's with me now had three young boys another staff member had a couple kids they're all wondering what's going to happen are we going to be unemployed in six months and i said listen And Mike, I'm, I hear you.

Starting point is 00:25:28 Let's just focus on the day to day at some point at the appropriate time. I'll have that conversation. And I had that conversation. And Barry, as you'd expect, the great manager would be in that situation, made no promises. He said, you'll be evaluated daily. Wow. And he evaluated me daily. Came to every practice.

Starting point is 00:25:52 Really? Every practice. and sent me notes after a lot of practices. And I didn't mind it. It didn't bother me. I understood this at Butler University because of what all the coaches prior to me did, basketball is really important for that life of that university. It's a tremendous university, but basketball is a part of the fabric of that university.

Starting point is 00:26:21 So this was really important to him. So we said you're going to be evaluating daily. And it wasn't until we started 4 and O and then probably the most instrumental game of our early time there was we played in a tournament in the Bahamas and beat North Carolina, which I think was fifth in the country at the time. We were unranked. We had been picked to finish at the very bottom of our league. And beating North Carolina after starting off 4 and 0 made a real statement.

Starting point is 00:26:51 And I think it was at that moment where he really began to see a potential transition and opportunity for me. Was there a part of you when he said you'll be evaluated daily that said, haven't I already earned some trust here? Or did you sit that like as a little chip on your shoulder to say, good, watch, watch us work? Like I'm wondering what's going through your mind. when you're essentially getting micromanaged as someone in the business world would say if their boss was going to watch them perform daily and basically said if I don't like it, then yes, you will be fired in six months or less and your staff, who I know you care about a lot. It's not just about you. It's about them too and their families.

Starting point is 00:27:38 What's going through your mind as you hear that? I think it was it was hard to hear, but it was reality. It was where we were at. And knowing how important that program is for that university and knowing Barry, like I know him, he's a terrific manager of people. I think I knew I was going to hear the truth and that he was not in any way going to make the truth. better in that moment to appease me in any way. What he was going to say to me was going to be absolutely what he felt in that moment. And what he felt in that moment is I'm not making any promises or guarantees.

Starting point is 00:28:34 You'll be evaluated on a day-to-day basis. And I think what I had to do during those times as he was evaluating me in practice was I had to say, I'm going to coach, I'm going to listen to any critique he might have because he's a former coach. And as I said, a terrific athletic director and was a really good coach. I'm going to listen to any critique he's going to give me, but I am going to coach to my convictions. I'm going to lead to my convictions what I believe and what our staff believes gives us the best chance to be successful. And I'm not going to deviate from that in any way, whether it's the specifics of X and O towards any other way or any other way of leading or coaching.

Starting point is 00:29:25 So I think in that moment, I think had I not had success in our turnaround at Gardner Web, I don't know that I'd be as strongly held to my convictions. I hope I would. But I think that validated a lot in my mind and gave me great confidence moving forward. one of the things Jason said to me as we were preparing was Chris as much as anyone I've ever met doesn't just talk about it he does it his actions are what prove the type of guy he is how he's able to live up to his values as you say your convictions and hold people accountable to them as well even though at times it's really hard and I think that's when we really learn about

Starting point is 00:30:15 ourselves coach is when we make a tough decision or we live up to standards and sometimes it means maybe throwing a player off the team or temporarily being worse because of it. And I love to hear your philosophy around that part of it, about living your values, about holding people accountable, about living to high standards. The reason I say this is because it's really hard to do. And there are people watching and listening that are battling this as we speak. How is this something that has become a part of you? This is a part of your brand that you're able to walk the walk, not just talk to talk,

Starting point is 00:31:00 and hold people accountable, live your values so well. Well, that's kind of him to say that. And I appreciate it. And it's certainly something I try to do consistently. I think like all of us and like all leaders, Ryan, I fail probably more than I'm successful at doing that. But I do think that I hold the commitment to our values as one of the really important, maybe the most important part of our program.

Starting point is 00:31:35 And, you know, we have program values and we have basketball. values. Our program values here are truth and toughness, accountability, thankfulness, humility, and respect. And they're part of the very fabric of what we want our program to be about, Ryan. And we discussed them with our player. We players, we have weekly summer meetings that we call Beyond Hoops where we're talking about those specific values. and how important we feel like they are in our organization, in our program. And we share examples of kind of real life stuff and obviously basketball stuff. Because, you know, one of our hopes is that guys will be different as they go through our program,

Starting point is 00:32:32 that their time here will change them in ways beyond just their basketball growth. And I think if we're not, if we're just hanging our values on a wall, and Urban was great. I've talked to Urban a lot about this. And he said, hey, whatever your program values are, they need to be hung in every office, in every office. But if they're just hung in the office and not communicated and in a real way communicated to your staff, your personnel or your players, then I think they'll ultimately fall flat. So we've tried to do that.

Starting point is 00:33:19 We've tried to tell them and communicate in the real way that this is what we're, this is what we're going to be held to. And it's not to say you're going to be perfect in every way. You're not. Neither am I. But we're going to refer back to these program values as we go through a challenging season. How did you come up? So I wrote down truth, toughness.

Starting point is 00:33:40 Can you tell me the rest of them? And then after you tell me the rest of them, explain, are they your values that you impose on the team? Or are the values that you've come up with together with your staff or even with players? I am curious about this, Chris, because there are people in businesses right now watching and listening saying, you know, I need to do a better job of this. And do I just have my own values as the leader of this team or the leader of this business? do I involve them? How do we come up with them?

Starting point is 00:34:10 And take it the next step, which is probably even more important. How do we actually show that we're living these values daily? Yeah, it's a really good question. Really good question. I think that is the challenge. So I'll give them to you. So truth, humility, respect, toughness, accountability, and thankfulness. So I have borrowed, stole whatever you want to say several, a few of these from programs that I've respected coaches,

Starting point is 00:34:44 one of which was my former athletic directorate and Brad Stevens at Butler, a couple of these. And then I've added a couple that I feel like, like when I say toughness, one of the reasons that I have that as a core value because I believe so strongly, I'm sure you've read Angela Duckworth's book on grit. I believe so strongly in that component to successful people. You know, she talked about the grit scale and scoring you on your level of grit. So your response to challenging moments as a leader in business or a leader in athletics or an athlete says so much about your ability to be successful. So toughness and we really dive into that what that specifically looks like. because players will have something in their mind about toughness.

Starting point is 00:35:39 But we really try to peel back and talk specifically about it. Real quick, when it comes to toughness, a great friend of mine who is also a basketball coach and a guy that I want to make an introduction, if you may already know him, he coaches at Centralville High School named Brooke Cups. I love his definition of toughness is about having positive body language. And that's one of the things he looks for in his players. And he's like,

Starting point is 00:36:07 I've never seen someone with positive positive body language. It wasn't tough that didn't come back. And I think of, I don't know, I was watching Russell Wilson recently play. And oftentimes they're losing. Their defense is struggling this year and they're having to come back. And when I look at him, I truly believe that he truly believes that they're going to go score, that they're going to go 80 yards and they're going to score. His body language, the way he carries himself, I don't think it's fake. Like, it seems legitimate. Like, this is like his honest belief to his core is I am going to help my team go 80 yards and we're going to go score and win this game. That feels like toughness to me. So I wanted to like pull out toughness real quick because

Starting point is 00:36:54 I think it's a critical component regardless of what you do, whether you play sports or you don't and just hear maybe how you specifically think about toughness. Absolutely. It's so important. And I think the older I've gotten and the more engaged I've been in this competitive battle that we're a part of, you know, competitive sports or business, the more I've valued this value of toughness and one's ability to respond. Tony Bennett, one of the great coaches in our game at Virginia, talks about calm

Starting point is 00:37:26 is contagious. And he'll say that with his players, calm is contagious. And I think that there's a reality to that. So training your response to difficult situations. Right now we're in week two and a half of practice. And it's our job to communicate to our staff, or it's our job as a staff to communicate to our players, what toughness looks like on a day-to-day basis.

Starting point is 00:37:54 So as we present challenging moments, to them. We are evaluating their response and often we'll keep a video camera on a player who's struggling with body language well beyond the play that has ended. Just to explain to him and occasionally we'll show it to the whole team that I think sometimes a lot can be made of body language. It may be sometimes too much, but it's really your response. The game, doesn't wait on you to respond the right way. The game moves on. The next play happens. So it's your ability to respond quickly and move on to the next play that is so critical. We really, our first year here, hammered that with our guys. And I never forget, we were playing

Starting point is 00:38:45 on the road against a good team, Indiana, on the road. And one of our players, it was a late shot clock situation. And one of our players, Andrew Dockage, Crowe was going crazy. It was sold out in Bloomington. And the ball got passed back to him towards half court. He took his eye off the ball. The ball went through his hands. It was an over and back violation. And we've used this video to show the, in that moment, they had 35 seconds. We could have basically held the ball and won the game. They had 35 seconds to go score now. They had another possession to go score.

Starting point is 00:39:26 The ball goes through his hands and immediately our guys go up to him. He does not hang his head. He keeps his chin up, head up, chest out. Our guys go and dab them up and they move on to the next play. We end up winning the game. So we've modeled that in a video session with our guys. That's a big part of toughness. How you choose to respond, right?

Starting point is 00:39:48 And empowering people so that they know it's a choice. It's a choice. And I feel the same way as it, Dad, you know, I fail miserably all the time. But I'm still trying like crazy about it is a distinctive choice that we all get to make every day on how we're going to respond to both great moments and the tough ones. And that will be the determining factor in the outcome is how we choose. respond when times get tough or when we do well. And I think that's that's that's a critical component for people to think about. I love that example you share where it's you didn't you didn't talk about a guy hitting a big shot. You talk about a guy making a mistake and respond and not only him,

Starting point is 00:40:36 but his teammates responding that way and then a big stop to win the game. No doubt. Early in my time at Butler, I was, I read this Shakespeare quote, he who would be calm must first put on the appearance of calm. And I've had people say to me, boy, you seem really calm out there. I think there is a right, a correlation between your ability to remain calm in a moment that is challenging and your ability to respond the right way and in those around you responding the right way. So it's a challenge for all of us. I remember this learning this playing quarterback, Chris, because, you know, football Huddle is crazy. And there's always stuff going on. Guys are hurt. You know, the play clock's going

Starting point is 00:41:23 down. You get a call from the office coordinator. It may not be the play that you wanted, but you got to call it with conviction. You got to have poise. You got to have moxie. Right. There's stories about quarterbacks telling jokes or keeping. I think that is it is a great, great place to learn how to be measured and composed amongst chaos. And that is a quality. for all leaders, regardless if you're a college basketball coach, if you're leading a Fortune 500 company, the ability to be composed amongst the chaos is something for all of us to figure out how to develop. And so I would ask you, a guy who has figured some things out of how to do this. What are some, when a young coach or let's say a player who wants to be a coach comes to you,

Starting point is 00:42:15 what are some ways or some ideas you would give to that person to say, here's how I've worked to develop some of this calmness and composure? You know, I think practicing it is as important as anything, Ryan. And I think you need people around you also to give you honest feedback on what your response has been in a moment and how it made them feel. because I think sometimes we don't always realize how reactionary we can be and what it communicates to those around us. I struggle with that myself at times. COVID has presented so many challenges for us as coaches, and I'm sure as business people, and we have so many people who are going through challenging times right now because of this pandemic.

Starting point is 00:43:11 And I think we need feedback from those closest to us that can. tell us how we've responded in a moment. I think we have to practice it. And then, you know, one of the things that I've done better as I've gotten older is anytime I feel myself angry, frustrated, disappointed with a player, I have waited to have a conversation with them until I've been able to really fully process the information. Because I think we make too many mistakes.

Starting point is 00:43:45 And it's also with staff. I've tried to wait and allow myself to think through it and maybe try to take their point of view in certain situations. So, you know, probably that's helped me as much as anything. Yeah, I think that's a critical component is to, we all need to press pause, you know, from time to time and not react out of emotion, but react with more thoughtfulness and doing our best to think. to think of what it's like from that person's perspective. We all probably as a society would be better if we regularly put ourselves in the position of the other person and just say, I wonder, I wonder how they came to that conclusion. I wonder what made them do that.

Starting point is 00:44:32 Now, we still may realize like that was really stupid. But at a minimum, if we did that more, I know, I'm speaking to myself as much as anybody. If we did that more, we'd probably all be better off. than just being so reactionary to exactly what's going on in the moment. No doubt. And we see that now more than ever, right? We're in a really, in a politically divided country, you see an inability at times to really engage in a way where you could truly think about the perspective that that person is coming

Starting point is 00:45:10 from. And I think social media has certainly exaggerated that. in many ways. But I agree completely with you. So you turn things around at Butler. You guys are winning. Things are going really well. And all of a sudden, Thad Mata, who is an incredible guy, by the way, he got inducted into the Ohio State Hall of Fame the same night that my brother did. So I saw Thad speech. That's right. I don't know if you were there that night, but it was so funny. That was good. He's like, honey, Just so you know, it's going to be a late night with the boy. Like, this is during his full of him speech, you know, anyway. But anyway, he gets, he gets, whatever, they let go or they decide not to work together anymore.

Starting point is 00:45:58 And there's an opening for the job and your name gets floated as being one of the potential guys to be the Ohio State basketball coach. And I want to go back to a paragraph that you wrote and then ask you to expand on it further because, basically what you've done was created a really comfortable position for yourself. You're making, you're a millionaire. You're doing really well. Your family, I'm guessing, enjoys it. You're back in Indiana at Butler. And this is what you've written.

Starting point is 00:46:30 You said, as I found myself deliberating once again, I began to think back to the work of Stanford psychologist Carol Dweck on motivation and failure. Dweck drew a distinction between performance orientation and, learning orientation. Children that believe that their intelligence is fixed almost always give up on problems quickly, whereas those that believe their intelligence is malleable, conversely stick with problems longer. Adults are no different. Those who are performance oriented are dissuaded by failure. They favor stability, whereas those who are learning oriented embrace operational. and eschew the status quo.

Starting point is 00:47:17 Love that paragraph. It really speaks to me. And I really want to go inside your head as you're thinking about leaving a very comfortable job in position at Butler. After you've really built a family there, it felt like from everything I read to go to Ohio State and what was going through your mind. Yeah, that was a really challenging decision for me in a lot of ways. And what you read there is really true.

Starting point is 00:47:50 I think, first of all, I love her work. And the idea of a growth mindset in so many ways is what, as we've talked about earlier, has been pivotal in so many of my decisions. I had a tremendous situation and was as happy as I've ever been as professionally in Indianapolis and at Butler working for a tremendous athletic director. And as you mentioned, had just, again, signed a long-term contract at that time eight years.

Starting point is 00:48:27 And I had mixed feelings so much so that I had, in essence, I think the athletic director here at Ohio State, who's tremendous Gene Smith, it took it a little bit like me passing on the opportunity because I was reluctant to have conversations. early in this process. But he was persistent and, you know, I hope that I can continue to prove his persistence being valuable here as we grow this program. But I think it really did come down to

Starting point is 00:49:02 the opportunity to continue to challenge myself in many ways and not that I wasn't challenged at Butler because I certainly was. We had finished. twice in three years it finished second in the league, but it had not won the Big East yet. We did go to the Sweet 16 and won a couple wins, Wendstablay tournament games and felt really good about where we were there. But it really did come down to just the idea of continuing to challenge myself professionally and obviously the great opportunity that working at Ohio State Proved. Coach, when you think about the incredible people you've been surrounded by,

Starting point is 00:49:43 whether it's players or Paul Patterson, Brad Stevens, others. What have you found to be some of the commonalities among leaders who have sustained excellence? Consistency in their approach, really disciplined in both their approach and in their their habits. you know, urban loves to talk about do your habits match your hopes and dreams, your goals, your dreams, really discipline,

Starting point is 00:50:20 but a consistency to their approach. And then I think in ways that I've seen in athletics is people who are really convicted in what they believe is successful and in how they, you know, and how they operate. They just have strong,

Starting point is 00:50:40 convictions and what they believe. I think that's what I've seen in guys that have been really successful. You know, there's a lot of other things, tremendous work ethic and other things, but those are the things I point to. When you're recruiting a player, obviously you're looking, you want a guy who can shoot, who can score, who can play defense, beyond kind of the basketball skill level of can they put the ball in the basket and defend, get rebounds, whatever it may be. What else do you look for in an Ohio State Buckeye and a guy to be a part of your team

Starting point is 00:51:16 beyond just just talent and skill on the basketball court? Yeah, taking that out of the equation and that evaluation out of the equation, it really does come down to the idea of toughness, a player's ability to everything we spoke about earlier. There's certainly a physical toughness that's required, but also, you know, we'll often ask recruits, what's the most challenging thing you've been through? And can you tell me how you responded in that moment? Can you tell me how you responded in that process? And if they can articulate as a young person would, and we can see a response, that that's attractive to us in a lot of ways. You know, I think when you're involved in a team game, Ryan, the idea of a common threat of someone who is selfless is really, really important.

Starting point is 00:52:20 So we will evaluate a player's body language on a bench when he's not playing. We'll evaluate a player's response to a teammate's success positively or negatively because we think that says so much. much about their ability to engage in a team, team activity. That's really, that's really important to us. And then certain character traits, we really believe in the importance of, of honesty and how important, you know,

Starting point is 00:52:54 we talk about truth and honesty in our program. So we just really believe in that. We will walk away at any time in a recruiting situation, no matter how long we've recruited a young man or how much we have invested if we don't feel like he fits. Now, it's important to always remember that none of us are finished products at the ages of 17 and 18 years old. So there does have to be a great understanding of that as we continue to recruit. I love it. I'm very biased and I'm sure you get this stuff all the time, coach, but there's a sophomore at Centralville High School that you're

Starting point is 00:53:36 going to want on your team in a few years named Gabe Cups. This kid has got all of that and he can shoot. He's like Aaron Kraft, Greg Paulus with the shot of JJ Redick. And I hope he is the Ohio State Buckeye one day. But he's a sophomore now. He plays for his dad, Brooke. And Brooke is one of the best leaders I've ever met and has had a huge impact on me. And the reason I bring this up is because I vividly remember May 1st of my junior season. It was the first day coaches were allowed. Football rules were weird, different back then, but it was the first day coaches were allowed to come to our schools and talk to us in person.

Starting point is 00:54:15 And coach Ron Johnson was an assistant coach at Miami University, and he was waiting in my wait room for me early before school because he knew that's when I would go in there. And he hand-delivered me a scholarship offer and said, I just thought it was worth it for you to know how much we want you to be our starting quarterback someday and hand-delivered it to me. And I'll never forget it. And I ended up going there not only because of that, but it played a big role. And I happened to go at the same time as Ben Rotherzberger, so we know how that turned out.

Starting point is 00:54:46 But Ben said the same thing. Ben said the same thing. They were on me before anybody else. They took care of me. A different coach recruited his area than recruited mine. And I don't know. I just think that part for kids, like there are these things that can really make a difference. And I have to publicly talk about Gabe because I know how good of a kid he is.

Starting point is 00:55:05 and he's an incredible player. I don't know if he's on your radar. I hope he is. But if not, he definitely should be. Well, I will tell you, so NCAA rules prevent me

Starting point is 00:55:15 from speaking in any way about, really? You can't talk about high school kids. I can't talk about them. I really can't even engage in any conversation about them. Do I have to edit this out? You probably will. But it's good.

Starting point is 00:55:27 Yes, you probably will. No, I mean, I only do it if you'll make, if I have to. I don't want to. I think you will.

Starting point is 00:55:35 I'll text you. I can't let you know. Okay, okay. But yeah, I can't talk specifically about recruits. But yeah, recruiting stories, obviously you were recruited by a number of schools. They're really interesting to reflect back on here, you know, and hear about, hey, what impacted me at that age, you know, that pivotal age in decision making. Yeah, it is, it is wild how you see the people who believe in you. Like, I don't know about you, Chris, but I so badly want to prove those people, right?

Starting point is 00:56:05 like more so than proving the doubters wrong and I know that gets a lot that's a lot of more of a sexier topic like Aaron Rogers has a permanent chip on his shoulder you know and any maybe he does I don't know but but but my my thinking of with so much support and people who believed in me and believed in me before I was anything like Jason with you right he believed in you as a coach before you were what you are now and and and you love him for it at least that's part of why you do And I think that's a big, it's a big part of leadership, too, is finding people. And one of the things I heard about LeBron James that he's so good at is that he makes guys believe in themselves more than they would without him. Like he gasses them up as the quote I've heard, meaning he'll get in guys' heads that he knows he needs KCP to make threes in the finals to win.

Starting point is 00:56:58 And so he'll be gassing them up all year because there are going to be moments. And I think that's a different form of leadership that is important, is figuring out how to fuel others to perform at higher levels than maybe they even think they're capable of. You mentioned LeBron. He's maybe the best we've ever seen it doing that. Yeah. He really is. He's his charisma as a leader and ability to engage and draw that out of the people he's playing with and elevate them to another level is really a gift. It's really a gift.

Starting point is 00:57:30 And I think you do see that with some of the great athletic leaders, whether it's a tremendous quarterback or someone like LeBron, who's been the best at it. I completely agree. Yeah. Coach, one more thing before we take off. I know we're a little bit over. But you're around young people. People graduate. You're around people who want to be coaches.

Starting point is 00:57:53 They want to do what you've done someday. So I'm always fascinated by people who are regularly surrounded by these types of people. And they come to you with advice or asking you for advice. What are some of the general pieces of life advice you would share with a young, thoughtful, intelligent, ambitious person? Great question. One, you can't skip steps in the process of becoming a coach or a business leader. You can't skip steps.

Starting point is 00:58:30 the really value the steps that you're taking at the very beginning stages of your of your career, whenever it is that begins. Eliminate comparison as much as possible. It's hard to do today because everything is a comparison game and you're involved in competitive athletics or competitive business, but avoiding comparison will allow you to really fulfill your best ability. So those first, those will be my, can't skip steps, avoid comparison. I think the growth mindset we've talked about, being committed to growing professionally and being committed to growing personally. I believe you had Atomic Habits author.

Starting point is 00:59:31 James. James Clear on your podcast. And he's, you know, it's a fantastic book that talks about the importance of daily habits. So this idea of when you get to a position of leadership, your character is going to be put on display. And if there are major holes in your character, it inevitably will show up.

Starting point is 01:00:04 And it in many times, as we've seen in many cases, can be the reason that you lose that position that you've worked so, so hard for. One of my favorite pastors that I listen to says, we write our stories one decision at a time. And I think that's true. so many ways and a good reminder for all of us that we're writing our stories one one decision, one choice at a time. So for young people as they're trying to build a career, I would just emphasize really those things. It's going to require great work ethic, all those things that we know successful people have, but those are a couple things that come to mind. Love it. Coach Chris Holman, thank you so much for being here today. And

Starting point is 01:00:55 offering so much wisdom. I'm excited to continue our dialogue as we both progress. I'd love to do so. It's nice. I'm only about an hour and 15 minutes way. I hope fans can watch your games. I'd love to come up to Columbus and watch the game sometime. You have an open invitation. I love what you do. I love the information that you get from your podcast subjects when you're talking to them. It's tremendous interview style. And you know, like you have a regular listener So obviously anytime you want to come by and see the buck guys feel free. We'd love to. All right.

Starting point is 01:01:31 Thanks so much, Coach. We'll certainly be, uh, continue the conversation. Sounds great. Stay well, Ryan. All right. Thanks. Okay. How I can say is if I was an athletic director in college, I'd certainly be beating

Starting point is 01:01:45 down Chris's door to have him be my basketball coach. What a thoughtful and intentional leader. Love that conversation. A few of my key takeaways from my notes. the athletic director at Butler said, you will be evaluated daily. And then he proceeded to show up at practice every day to carefully watch Chris and his staff to see how the players would relate to them. And Chris responded by saying, I'm going to coach to my convictions, which led to an undefeated

Starting point is 01:02:18 start, including beating number five ranked University of North Carolina, which then led to Chris getting a long-term contract. And the next, communicating and living your values. As a leader, it is our responsibility to ensure our team has crystal clarity around what our values are and then living them out. And at Ohio State for their basketball team, it is truth, humility, respect, toughness, accountability, and being thankful. And it is evident that Chris is able to live those and speak those to his team on a daily basis. And then a part near the second half of the conversation when he said, calm is contagious. How will you respond during difficult circumstances? What does toughness look like on a day-to-day basis? It is our job, again, as leaders, to be that

Starting point is 01:03:21 presence for our team amongst the chaos to be calm and poised and composed when everything is going wild around us. They look to us as their leader to see how is he or she responding. It is our duty to be there for our teams. I want to say once again, thank you so much for continuing to spread the message telling a friend or two, you should listen to the Learning Leader Show, especially this episode with the great Chris Holman. It will help you become a more effective leader. And because you continue to do that and because you continue to write reviews on Apple Podcasts and rate the show,

Starting point is 01:04:07 hopefully five stars, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful and will continue to be over-prepared. for these conversations to hopefully add value to your life. Thank you so much. Talk with you soon. Can't wait.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 393: Chris Holtmann - How To Lead With Conviction (Don't Be Afraid To Pursue Growth)

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