The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 395: Dr. Marisa Porges - How To Raise Bold, Courageous, & Resilient Women

Episode Date: December 7, 2020

Text LEARNERS to 44222 for more... Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12 Ep #395: Dr. Marisa Porges Notes: Keys to a good coffee meeting with someone: Be early Find a quiet spot Know your order before you get there. Don't make it too complex Have a goal for the meeting. Know what you want to get out of it "You don't have to be a feminist to care about these lessons, nor do you need a daughter or a sister. You just have to know a girl or young woman and care about her future." The differences for a woman vs. a man in business: Women have fewer mentors and sponsors "You need to seek mentors on a regular basis" "Men need to mentor women" -- "Make room for women mentees" What should the man who is nervous to mentor a woman do? Meet in a public place Talk about business Key to excellence: The ability to adapt Marisa joined the Navy after High School. She was inspired by the movie Top Gun She got in a bad car accident and had to be rescued by the jaws of life She had to shave her head in the Navy "Our reality forces us to adapt. We change jobs 4x more than our parents did." How to be adaptable? Be open to pushing yourself to new environments Test yourself in a new environment. Don't always set up for the perfect environment Do something differently -- Test your boundaries How to be authentically empathetic? The platinum rule -- Treat others as they want to be treated (not how you want to be treated) Be vulnerable, open, and real While interviewing terrorists in Yemen, Marisa got them to open up by authentically opening up first "Be conscious about when and how you're vulnerable. It can't be too often. Monitor your emotions." Look for go for it moments... Learn to rebound from failure and understand the key takeaways from them. Be able to deal with uncertainty. Marisa shares a story about a parent of one of her students. Marc. His daughter was going through an issue at school. Marc said, "I went into Dad mode and said should I call the school? Talk to a teacher? —- This is a terrible way to respond as the dad of a daughter. A dad needs to "coach from the sideline." Help your daughter practice self advocacy. Ask them questions, be curious. Help your daughter find her voice and speak up. One easy example to practice -- "When you go out to eat, always have your daughter order her food. When you call to order a pizza, have your daughter do it." Marisa worked in the White House and needed to become an excellent communicator to prepare for her conversations with The President. How did she do this? "Practice, practice practice." Excellence: How we learn from failure and bounce back... What happens next? It's always about the others in your life. Who are you surrounding yourself with? Small things make a big difference

I think it's something we all need to remember at every stage of our lives, every stage of our careers, this idea that practice, practice, practice, right? It makes a difference whether you're walking in the room to negotiate or whether you're walking in the room for a big pitch. Or, and I saw this in the White House, right, or whether you're walking in the room to brief the president or the chief of staff. Hey, everyone, I want to tell you about a new company that I'm excited about. It's called Municipal, and it was co-founded by my friend Harry Arnette. and Mark Wahlberg. Municipal is the original sport utility gear, the most comfortable, versatile, and stylish clothes that you can wear all day long. There are pieces for everyone,

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Hawk 20 for 20% off now through the end of the year at Munixt. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show presented by Rixie and Meyer. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text learners to 4-4222 in order to join tens of thousands of learning leaders from all over the world. Receive Mindful Monday updates what I'm reading, writing, watching, thinking it about. And it will also give you more details about how my book, Welcome to management will help you become a more effective leader.

Text learners to 4-4-2-2. Now on tonight's featured leaders of special one, Dr. Marissa Porges, head of school at the Baldwin School. Dr. Porges previously served at the White House as a senior advisor for cybersecurity and technology policy. prior to the White House. She traveled throughout the Middle East and Afghanistan conducting research on counterterrorism, including interviews with former members of al-Qaeda and the Taliban. Dr. Portges also served the United States on active duty in the U.S. Navy

flying jets as a naval flight officer. Wow, a few of the topics we discussed. how to adapt to ever-changing circumstances we find ourselves in as a leader, particularly useful right now. Then how you should respond when your child has an issue at school? Marissa's answer may surprise you. And then the primary skill she used when interviewing members, of al-Qaeda and the Taliban and how you can become a better leader by implementing what she shares. This one is absolutely packed.

Ladies and gentlemen, it's Dr. Marissa Porges. I've heard that you teach a class at your school for the seniors focused on leadership. And so first, I love to hear a little bit more about the curriculum of that class. some of the key takeaways for the girls to are becoming women in that class that you share with them. And what made you as the head of the school decide to then also teach a class amongst all the other responsibilities you have? So that it's a question I love you asking to start the show because I spent so much time over the past couple of years developing that course in large part because it's something that

I wish I'd had when I was a teenager. I think a lot of the lessons that I learned as a leader at different points in my career were very much on-the-job training and those things that I then look back and said, oh, like, if only I had known how to negotiate better, how to sort of like solve this sort of problem or deal with this sort of difference in a work context or what that looked like. And so it very much was something that I think our girls should have, our kids should have. And I developed it over the past couple of years as that a bridge to our teenage girls as they're looking at the real world. So they think about college, but they're really focused on the world around them. Kids today are so more in tune with what's going on. And so we do it at two levels. At first, we talk about sort of like, you know, what you would take if you took a one-on-one on leadership through the philosophical lens, right?

We meet a couple readings. We sort of talk about what it means to be a leader, what kind of leadership qualities in the general sense. they want to have. And then we actually do case studies. We pull up, you know, they get to choose everyone from Angela Merkel to Marissa Mayer to, you know, Michelle Obama. And they dig into what those leaders look like from afar and how they're both criticized and applauded. And we talk about the why, like, what is it that makes them effective or ineffective as a leader? And then there's actually a third part, and this is a lot of what I get to in the book, is the skills that you need to be an effective leader. I mean, I think we sometimes overlook those and I have the girls practice. We actually do,

you know, a practice, go to a coffee and have a conversation with somebody you admire and see where it goes. We do practice emails to somebody to introduce yourself, this idea that they need to learn early on, the muscle memory that it takes to be effective as a leader, I think is incredibly important. So it does multiple parts of the course. Okay. This is probably good for anybody, but when you practice going to meet for the 15, 20 minute coffee. Let's get tactical for a second, Marissa. So what are some of the things you teach to do well at the first coffee meeting with someone? Oh, it's so funny. And this again, it's come out of years of people, me doing it with others. And then as I got, you know, more senior over time, young folks just early in the career doing for me. And I saw the things that they struggled with.

And I literally still to this day, if I'm doing a coffee with somebody, I will at the end be like, okay, now that we're done, I'm going to give you a little bit of feedback. I'm a big on feedback. So it is tactical. It's everything from, you know, make sure you have gotten to the coffee shop early and positioned yourself close, you know, somewhere where you can see them walk in, Google them beforehand to see what they look like, but someplace where it's going to be quiet and private so you can have a conversation, right? Everything from that to literally I talk about what they should order when they get to the front of the line. because I've been struck in moments when the young person or young professional struggles and suddenly orders the most, the fanciest coffee on the menu and we're sitting there for 15 minutes

with the barista waiting rather than having the conversation they really were there for. So we talk about everything from that to what you want out of the conversation. And I, and I, we strategize about, you know, particularly for somebody who's young early in the career or a young professional just out of college, the idea that you want something. You want to make yourself available to help that person. You want to ask for an introduction to somebody else they may know. You want to insert something here that gives you the ability to develop that individual as not just a one-off coffee in person, but a mentor or hopefully over time a sponsor. And I think that those are the tricks of the trade, so to speak, that I learned over time that men and women, you know, girls and boys can learn younger and, you know, sort of become more effective leaders as they get older.

Is there or what I guess I should say, what is the difference for? Let's let's fast forward a little bit because you know, your book's all about what girls need, how to raise bold, courageous and resilient women. So let's say a recent college graduate. And I want to hear about the differences between if it's a guy or a girl showing up for that first interaction, whether it's at coffee or the first interview perhaps. What are some of the key differences that are, worth knowing both, I'm thinking this from both sides, Marissa, the person who is maybe the mentor or the interviewer, so they can, I want them to be more aware. And I want to focus this mainly on the females, but I still think it's worth it for us to talk about both because both of those types are listening right now. So what are some of the keys for that first interaction and maybe the difference is for a girl versus a guy? Yeah. It's such an important point to draw out and talk about because there are differences. I mean, for the first point, women, statistically speaking, research shows have less mentors, are less effective at mentoring, have fewer sponsors. And yet,

you know, every study has shown that the more mentors you have and the more sponsors, right, the difference of someone who's going to put you forward to the job, not just give you advice about a job, the more successful you'll be, the more promotions you get, the further you go in a career path. And so I think for the first point, it, you know, on, for young girls or young women, or any, any woman, I say this to myself sometimes. mentorship has to be something you do on a regular basis, sorry, seeking mentors, this idea that it is, it needs to be on your to-do list, right? Like I encourage folks, you know, set something in your calendar once a month or and

men and women mentors. Men and women, right? And this is sort of crossing gender lines, right? And so the difference is for, you know, men listening, be very conscious to include women in your mentorship circle as mentees. we have natural biases that would propel us to usually mentor folks who have something similar to us in our background, whether it's because you went to the same college or high school or grew up in the same area or, again, studies show because you're same gender or you have similar passions. And yet this, because of gender dynamics and a lot of the historically male workplaces, there's still barriers to entry for young women. It makes it harder for women to find. mentors. And so I do think on the side of managers to think, you know, are you making room on your list of mentees, the list of people that you say, you know, let's get, grab a coffee and talk

about your career. You know, do you do that for women as well? And then for young women to make sure you are actively asking for those moments. And I think women are less likely to make that ask, not least because it feels like you're encroaching on someone else's time. And I just encourage listeners everywhere to think that that is something that everyone in their career has had others do for them at some point. And it's what we have to do to pay back to the next generation. And frankly, from a selfish perspective, sometimes you find gems that help, you know, that give you information or sort of, you know, inspire you to other things. And so, you know, just know that's what you're doing as well, even when someone else is buying you the coffee.

So, Marissa, I'm a little bit nervous to ask my next question. And I'll pause for effect since we're on audio. What about for the guy listening who was a bit nervous about this because of what's gone on in the world, they may think it could be inappropriate to be out to lunch with a younger female. And they say, you know what? It's just not worth it. It's just not worth it to go there because something bad could happen, even if my

intentions are 100% pure and great. And they say, I saw my buddy, he did nothing wrong and something happened. or maybe he did, but they're like, forget it. I'm just not going to deal with it. I mean, this is the things that are said. I've heard people say this. And so it's worth us talking about because it's out there. People are thinking it in their head.

And it was one of the things I wanted to hopefully bring up with you. And fortunately, you've made me comfortable enough to say it pretty quickly. But what do you think about that? Yeah, it is, you know, it's the reality, right? And it's the unfortunate reality because for every, man or woman who is afraid of that moment, there's doors closing for the next generation of young women who want to follow the leadership example of their male mentors or their male bosses or other people in their lives. And so this is where, you know, I'm a very practical, pragmatic

person and a practical, pragmatic leader in terms of I think of it tactically. I mean, you know, this is where being very conscious of the where you meet, you know, what you say. And that should be the reality of it, you know, across the board, right? And so it's a, yes, you should be meeting at a coffee shop. You should be meeting in a public place. But I would hope we would be doing that anyway. You know, yes, it should be, you know, conversations about, you know, work and the things that would be on the resume, not the things that aren't off the resume. You know, the things that we, I would think that most of your listeners are doing already and have done and know that they're doing the right thing, you have to trust in that. And I do think that for the most part, from everything I've seen,

that still works. Right. And there's, you know, young women up and coming who want that and aren't going to see it as an opportunity to sort of put you in an awkward position. Who really just want their boss man or women to mentor them to say, hey, you know, it's our yearly review. Let's block time for your career talk. Right. I do it with my assistant. Once a year we have a conversation and we don't do it at the office because I feel like it gets you out of the work environment. We go to a coffee shop and we say, okay, right, let's talk about your career. Where do you, what happens next? And we sort of, you know, he'll be doing this for a number of years,

but he will, is off to be a leader himself one day. And when I think recognizing that, you know, people did that for us, for everyone listening, I'm sure. And not to not to be afraid because I just, it worries me for the next generation of young woman to think that that would be the case. Something you've written in your book, which I really like, you said, you don't have to be a feminist to care about these lessons, nor do you need a daughter or a sister. You just have to know a girl or a young woman and care about her future.

I think that says it perfectly to everyone, everyone listening, regardless of your family structure or your dynamic of why this is valuable. And I will point out there's a lot of science. I've written about this. This is my first book. I remember doing heavy research. the stats prove the more women leaders you have, the more successful and productive and better your business will be. All of the research backs that up too. So if you only care about the numbers

and you only care about your business going like this, I'm pointing upwards, you'd hire more women. So I think it kind of hits it from all angles, I guess. Yeah. I mean, again, whether it's because you want to make sure your daughter or your wife or your sister has all the opportunities you've had, or from the bottom line perspective, the profit loss perspective, or from the sense that women lend a perspective, problem solved differently, collaborate differently, and can really be someone at the table you need in those moments, whether it's a crisis or sort of an opportunity moment. And so, you know, we all need collectively to make sure that the next generation gets those opportunities. So yes, it can be either self-serving or selfless.

Yes. Okay, I want to go to chapter six in your book. Your ability to adapt will be key, or her ability to adapt will be key is what it's titled. And I'm going to set the stage and then let you finish the story. Okay. So it's your second day as a Navy midshipman. Your first day in uniform during a week of indoctrination training that was meant to mirror boot camp. And you were sitting in a barber's chair, tall, swivel chair. And you were. were sinking into your seat and tears welled up into your eyes. You were 17 years old. Take us to that moment. Wow, you went right for it, Ryan. It took me the entire book. It's one of the later chapters to get to this story because it's a very personal one. But it's a very important one because it speaks to both moments of failure that we all need to overcome and how we teach, you know, lessons learned than teaching next generation about that. And then a really important lesson front and center right now as we're all wrestling with the new realities of life about the key skill of adaptability for leaders both at home and in the workplace. And so the story that Ryan started

telling was when I had just, again, put on the uniform, I joined the Navy shortly after high school. And so I did ROTC in college. It had been my dream from a young age to fly jets off carriers for anyone listening who grew up in the era of Top Gun, best recruiting movie ever, exactly. So yours truly was hoping to be Goose or Maverick. The stepping stone to get there was I did ROTC in college. And one of the first things they do when you're sort of after you put your uniform on is, of course, make sure you're up to snuff, that your hair is according to code, that if you're a young woman, you can put it back in a strict bun. And if you're a young man, It sort of meets military standards.

And the missing piece for me was a couple of weeks prior to indoctrination. I'd gotten into a pretty terrific, right, horrific, excuse me, car accident. And I was fortunate to have local emergency responders find pretty quickly and, you know, jaws of life extricate me and sort of there's a story for that one as well. But the crux of the matter was I had a bit of a wonky haircut. going into Navy training because it might have to have brain surgery and a couple other things. And long story short, I was very sensitive about it, as you might imagine, a young girl, 17 years old, first, you know, off to college, sort of that was my, you know, first foray into this

new world, right? I was adapting both to college, being away from home, joining the Navy, something totally new to me. I wasn't from a military family. And here the second day in uniform, they marked me with all the boys, because I, to the bar, barbershop to have my head shaved because I couldn't get my hair. It had been cut off in surgery and wasn't long enough to put in a bun. And needless to say, tears ensued. I don't think the barber knew what to do about it. But I've often reflected on that moment, right, because it's just this one turning point for

me that I think we all have this where something is so jarring, so front and center, so tangible to us that it makes us feel in a moment how we have to change ourselves. either our identity or how we have to adapt to new things. And I think it's all about what we do next, right? So that story opened the chapter because for me, it was a turning point into how I then had to adapt in college and the Navy through the rest of my career. And then it speaks to a lot of what I think we all have to do now, right?

In the midst of a pandemic, in the midst of sort of things outside our control that we all need to respond to as leaders, right, and how we run organizations in this. So then there's a whole other story, we can get to there in terms of what we do about it. But that's why that story was important for the book. I was told by a mentor of mine, a really a sponsor of mine very earlier in my career, he said, developed the skill to adapt. And I remember thinking I was young out of college. I'd just finished playing football.

I was like, what does that mean? He's like, developed a skill to adapt to an ever-changing situation because that's the world. And one day, a senior guy will come in and say, and he did say that's a senior guy, will come in and say, hey, you know, we're going to stop selling this and start selling this. And you got to get good at it today, right? And so you got to adapt and learn and not pout or cry about, no, I was really good about selling that other thing. I want to say, you know, that's not the way that works. And so I kind of learned that and I learned some of that through sports and I realized how that transferred into the business world. What are some of the keys for a leader in general to adapt, to develop skills to adapt.

What are some practical ways we can do this? It's great to hear that somebody had put that out to you early on because you're right, it's the reality we're all facing, whether it's a boss coming in and saying you're doing something new or whether it's the fact that every year, every month, we're having to adapt to new technology, we're having to learn and relearn how to do our jobs amidst a pandemic or other things. We're all changing jobs more often, right? studies show that those just starting out in the workforce are going to change jobs possibly

four times more often than their parents or grandparents by the time they're 40, right? It's crazy to think about it. And each time they pivot, they have to learn a new team. They have to learn a new set of standards, new technology, new ways of communicating. So how do we do it? And this is where I think we can start young, but also the skills that come with how we teach our girls or our boys, do our sons, about adapting, can apply. to us too. Right. So one, it's about being open to pushing herself into new environments, right? And so

this is where for our daughters, I suggest, you know, the next time you get that, the list for, you know, what class she's going to be in for school and we sort of the natural tendency of parents to say, oh, we want the other class. It's her favorite teacher or she wants the class where her friends are in. No, no, no. Right. This is a safe way, a very safe opportunity for her to test herself in new different environments. You know, it's the same thing, whether she's, you know, if she's joining to your user, a sports analogy, joining a soccer team or the local sports team, your son joining the Little League, or going to a summer camp or something with your church or synagogue or mosque, right? Those are all opportunities where you can help her or your son branch out and

try something slightly different in a very safe way. So you choose the camp that it's not the one her friends are going to, but where she's going to have to push herself, right? Or when we think about it for ourselves, just think about the little ways we can do things differently, right? Instead of, I mean, it's simple enough as like changing your routine and testing your boundaries in that way. And every time you do that, you're building the muscle memory that it takes to adapt to change, to communicate with different people in different moments, to respond effectively when you don't know really, when there's uncertainty. Those are the key skills that come with adapting. And again, there's social science research just starting now to really begin to it because CEOs on down

have shown and have realized that it's the key skill they're hiring for and need in future leaders. One of your skills that you've developed and I read about this because you did it when you were conducting counterterrorism operations in Yemen and Saudi Arabia and other places is your ability to authentically empathize with people. people. And even people commented in other countries that you were much better at this than the guys and that this became one of your superpowers. You developed this skill and it made you better than anybody else at doing this job of being able to authentically empathize. Can you share more about this skill and how one, I know that girls can use this to their advantage, but just people

in general how we all can get better at this. Yeah. I think empathy should be everyone's secret superpower. I think it will be the key for those listening from how you move from any management position to the next level up, right? Because at the big leadership levels that we see in our organizations, being an empathetic leader is really been proven to be so impactful to not just like to the morale of your group, but to the bottom line too, right?

because you understand what it is your people need to hear, what your customers are looking for, and then you respond to that in a really effective, powerful way. So, you know, I think, and I do think it comes more naturally to young girls and women, because a lot of it is how we're socialized to communicate early on, how we often are, you know, sort of how it's normalized for us to take into account what other people are thinking, whether it's class meets or friends or sort of the person at your play date when you're very young. And those ways of thinking and those habits, that idea that it's not just what to take the golden rule. It's not actually the golden rule of what you want done to yourself.

It's what other people want done for them, right? That's the transition for emblem rule. Right. Exactly. There you go. The platinum rule. Thank you. And so what does that mean for leaders?

I think it means thinking differently about how and when we communicate. And this is just sort of thinking of how you use your communication tools with your peers and your teams to be really authentic to understand that them seeing you as a real person is going to make them both connect with you and connect with your group's mission and then be more effective themselves. I think it's also about how we are in those moments vulnerable. And this is, you know, where, and I've had, it took me a little bit of time. I'll be honest to get used to this. It's not, doesn't come natural to me. This idea of, it's not just letting your guard down, but it's sort of sharing about yourself. It's sort of the moment that you sort of, you referenced in the, that I speak to in the book, when I was overseas in Yemen. I'm doing research on counterterrorism and literally sitting down with al-Qaeda terrorists and to hear their stories, right?

A crazy thing to do as an American, a crazy thing to do as American woman. A particularly crazy thing to do as a young American female who's just a crazy thing to do as a American female who's Jewish, right, who's a practicing Jew, not something you're supposed to be, you know, doing breaking bread with Al Qaeda terrorists who, by their mandate, are sort of, you're, you're not on the same side. So we'll put it that way. But I, you know, I can remember the moments when I shared personal information about myself that it was the thing that broke through and allowed us to communicate more clearly with each other, because then they thought it was okay to be vulnerable to. And now, mind you, you have to choose your moments, right? In the same way that

for every leader listening, you're not oversharing, right? There's a professional boundary too. But it's just this idea that sharing vulnerabilities is a way to connect with others and actually empowers you as a leader because it makes your people both relate to you and understand that you want to relate to them, right? It's a two-sided, you know, it's both sides of the equation. And then they'll buy into you and they'll buy into your team and your mission even more. So I just, yeah, go ahead. I think there's this thin line though and it's hard, it's much harder for women than it is for men when it comes to this being vulnerable because if you cross the line, again, I think the line almost doesn't exist for guys for most part.

Like, guys can be self-critical and talk down about themselves and people will laugh. I do this. They laugh and but sometimes like my wife will do it. And she's, and I'm not just saying this. People know she's actually been on the show. She's far more intelligent and tougher than I am. And it doesn't work the same way, where she'll be critical about something she does. And you have to be like, don't do that, even though I can do that.

And so I'm wondering, how does this? This is delicate, I realize, but how does this work for both the guys and the girls listening when it comes to this sharing where maybe you have imposter syndrome or maybe you're vulnerable about something? Like, how does this work? Yeah. Well, I think that the subtle difference for women, and this is, you know, I learned over time, you have to be conscious about when and conscientious about how you are vulnerable, right? And this is where it becomes, it really becomes a strategy to utilize and not just a way of being, which is, you know, I don't want to make it sound like a bad thing. But I think it's just a recognition that if you, you know, if you are that way too often or sort of if it becomes sort of, you know, of your almost like a verbal tick, but in sort of an emotional way, then it doesn't work to

maximum effect. The idea here is in some ways to almost take the emotion out of being vulnerable. And, you know, in the same way that telling the story I just told years ago would have upset me, right? I wasn't at the point where I was comfortable as a leader being vulnerable or sharing my failures in the same way, that I've now learned to do in part by writing this book where I had to write them down and start talking about them and realize. that, you know, not least of which is that they weren't such big deals, right?

They were little things in the scheme of things. But I mean, maybe, maybe not, I suppose. But the idea that I now understand them for what they are and can take the emotion out, even as I'm saying it, right? And so this is where it's not about, you know, crying or getting emotional at work, but it's about sharing a little piece of who you are in order to connect with your audience. And I think, you know, I'm sure in the same way for when you're doing your interviews and podcast, Brian, or when you're on, you're giving your your speeches and talks, I think we all realize that those moments where we are as true to ourselves as, you know, as people want us to be are the ways you find true power. And so I do think for women is just about being very conscious about how and when use that tool in your toolbox. The other thing that I think maybe goes along with this is an interesting one is how you accept.

compliments and how you accept praise. And I'll be curious to hear maybe if there's gender things going on here, but I hear both mess these up. But I've learned over time that when somebody says something kind about like a podcast or a book or whatever, that a genuine look them in the eye and say, thank you. Don't discount. Don't say, oh, well, it could have been better or I don't really like it.

Oh, no. Just say, thank you. Thank you. to me. Thank you. I'm glad that my work has impacted your life. Thank you. It is better. But what do you for both, and maybe this is more for girls. I don't know. But what, how about accepting praise or accepting compliments? Type of people who listen to this show, Marissa, are the ones who are doing really great work. And so they're getting praise. They're getting compliments. What do you feel is, is the proper way to accept praise? Oh, I think you just gave a great example, Ryan, right? Exactly what

you just did. It's, it's, you know, it's owning it. And then candidly, I think for those who are uncomfortable by it, you know, then it will, you move on more quickly, right? There's part of it that you're like, how do you do it? Oh, I'm going to say that, well, you know, I don't know if I'm the best at it, right? Because I think there's a little bit of me because I'm a perfectionist, right? And so this is something that is not, now I'm going to overshare. It's not that I do always want to make it better than it is, no matter what we're talking about. So there's always a little part of me that wants to share with that. But I think you're right to say that no, it's really about, I'm going to put it on my list of something that I learn from this podcast and continue thinking

about to do better on because I think you're right, in part because then it's how somebody wants to connect with you. Right. Again, you know, if they got something out of it or they're, you know, thinking you're doing a great job, it's their way of sort of that two sides of the coin. It's as impactful for them when you accept the compliment. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you. That's important for the audience or sort of the share of the compliment as well.

It's more as much about them as it is about you, I suppose. Right. Like don't take the moment away from the person giving it. I've actually, every once in a while met like an actor or an actress who's been in a big show or movie or in a professional athletes in some of the places I've been lucky enough to go. And people say like, oh, you just, you know, play it cool, play it cool, don't whatever. And I've actually found, if.

you give them a genuine specific compliment about their work that they love it. And it can create an incredible dialogue with someone. And so if you do like someone's work or you admire their work, tell them with specificity. It will probably, it's not like fanboying or fan growing. It could create a really good conversation. And if you're receiving it, accept it. Look him in the eye. Say, say, you know, thank you.

That means a lot to me. and don't discount the praise. I didn't expect to go here, by the way, but it just seems to come up that, you know, go ahead. No, but it also brings us full circle back to our earlier conversation about what to do in those moments when you're with a mentor and you want to sort of break the ground, right? It's that specificity.

It's how you connect with people. And it leads and opens the room for conversation you may not realize you have. So I think, you know, we just went full circle, which is well. I do, I am thinking of a personal time. Like, I was in the audience of my wife giving a talk one day. and she blew me away, like just crushed it. And I was like, wow, how did you do that?

Like remembered a bunch of stuff, like really funny, like a combination of just knocked it out. And I go, like, that was awesome. Like that was really good. And she's like, no, I messed up this part. And I messed that up. It was, ah, I could have been. And I was like, just accept the praise.

Just accept the compliment. It was really good. So I think that's good. But I think about your story, though, okay, you flew for the U.S. Navy. You worked into White House. You've traveled through the Middle East, negotiated with terrorists. You went to Harvard. You get your doctorate degree from King's College of London.

I mean, you've kind of racked it up and you're still young. So, like, how, it's for you, for you, is that just like when you think about all of that, or maybe you don't, like, what do you think about your career up to this point of all of your accomplishments at a young age? I thank you very much. I appreciate it. Here we go. Yeah, there we go. I think I've had the good fortune of having a choose-your-own adventure. And I think, you know, in terms of my career, but I think when I look back on it, what really strikes me is that I had the wherewithal both sort of personalities-wise in that sense, but really the skills to when I saw opportunities go for it. And so all the things you just said really came out of like left bank shots that I was like,

ah, I'm going to try this one, try that one, right? Go for it. My go for it moments. And then a team around me who really helped along the way. Right. And so when I think about how we help the next generation or when we help each other for your listener, sort of how do we all create those left bank shots, those moments when there's a ring you go for and you grab it and then it takes you swing the ring and take you

someplace else, how do you find those moments and how do you put yourself in position? to seize it. And that's those lessons of like making yourself super adaptable, right, so that you're not scared by the uncertainty that comes between all those jobs you just mentioned. I was unemployed, right? So there was as moments where between each one, there were moments when I had my like, oh, what happens next, right? Not all of them, but enough of them that I learned to deal with the uncertainty that comes with job changes, right? Or this idea that, you know, all of them come with moments of failure. Right. We all have to get used to those things and then rebound after. And, you know, I think I, what I hope everyone who's listening can remember is we all have the, you know, choose our own adventure paths, whatever it may be,

right? We have to figure out what that sounds like to each person. I think it's, you know, I had a bit of a wacky one in my early 20s because I did, you know, pursue the dream of becoming top gun and then, you know, pivot from there. But it's the idea that we can create those opportunities and then go for it. And more so that there are ways we can position our daughters, the next generation, to think that way and be prepared to go for it, you know, when they're, you know, in their 20s and beyond. Speaking of having a daughter, so you share a story about a parent of one of your students named Mark. And this is an example of, I want to talk about how to respond when your

daughter is going through an issue at school. And you said, Mark told you, I immediately, his daughter, it was some issue at school. And he said, I immediately went into dad mode. Should I call the school? Do I need to talk to the teacher? I need to do all this. And I think this kind of comes natural to dads. I know this feeling.

But I also think back to how my parents were for me and realize that while they, they're the greatest. And I hit the parent lottery still to this day. One of things they were really good at was they never intervene with stuff at school, with coaches ever. They didn't tell the coach, oh, he's going to play quarterback or he's the linebacker. They just said, hey, we'll sign you up, we'll drop you off, and then it's on you. And when things go bad, you got to figure it out. Now with parents, the snow plow style, you know, it's even more so than the helicopter, this is a terrible way to respond when somebody is struggling at school to feel

like I have to go and fix it. Can you share the proper way for a dad, this is getting very specific, to respond when his daughter is having an issue. Yep. And so you're exactly right. And I'm going to use a word you use and retool it. It's about coaching, right? The dad needs to think of them, you know, think of yourself as the coach in the situation. The coach from the sidelines, the coach who's going to talk your daughter through

what to do next so that she can do it herself and practice. Because particularly when our girls are young, elementary school, preteen, teenage, all the way, you know, listen, before they head off into the real world, by and large, they're in safe environments. They're in places where they're teachers, their coach, their advisor, wants the best for them. And so that's a great place to test the waters, to practice what self-advocacy looks like, practice what it means, you know, for them personally to speak up, to ask for what they need and sort of make requests.

It may not work out, but they will learn the muscle memory that they need later in life. So for the example, when, you know, your daughter's struggling with something in class, it's about coaching her, okay, well, what happens? Who do you talk to? Okay. So how do you make the appointment? What are you going to say when you're in the room or what do you say in the email, right? Talk her through what it looks like.

And then the next time you drop off her at school or sort of say, okay, let me know how it goes. I'll pick you up and we'll talk about it, right? It's the setting her up for success, reinforcing that she can do it on her own, coaching her through it. And then the follow-up so that she can, maybe it didn't go well. That's okay. Oh, why? Why not? Oh, did she get emotional or not emotional?

Did she not ask for what she wanted in the moment because she got nervous? Is there, you know, these are things that we can talk them through. And the reality is, again, these are the safe moments, right? The perfect example that I, you know, learned in the interviews with my students came from a girl who I realized was a master at this towards the end of her junior year. When I got, actually, it was the beginning of her junior year. I got an email from a president of a neighboring college who wanted to let me know that an incident had happened on his campus and involved two of my students. And what had happened was they were sexually harassed on campus while they were walking to a waiting car. You know, it was dusk, not dark.

They were walking by two girls, two teenagers, 16, 17. And the two employees had started cat calling them, commenting on their body, commenting on what they were wearing, calling after them what they wanted to do with them, things like that. And the girls were terrified, as they should have been. They ran to the waiting car where one of their moms was waiting. And, you know, of course, first thing, they protected themselves. They were safe. But it's what happened next that so impressed me and speak to exactly what we're talking about.

Was they, one of them, decided she's going to email the president. An older white man that, you know, she didn't know well, but she could find his email online because that's what you do these days. And she wrote the most eloquent, thoughtful, well-transful. It got forwarded to me later that said, you know, dear sir, I wanted to let you know of that an incident that happened on your campus. Describe the incident with detail and concluded by saying, you know, I wonder if you have training on sexual harassment for your employees. If you don't, you should do so. If not, you know, if you have, it's time for a refresher. I'd be happy to discuss it with you. Right. Within 24 hours, they got an email back. Within 36 hours, they were in a meeting with the head of security and the head of HR and this gentleman.

And one of their parents didn't even know about it until after the fact. And so this is a moment, right? This speaks a little bit of different than we're talking about, but you get back to the core of why the girls were able to do that, why they responded that way. And when I interviewed them later and sort of talked about like, how did you learn this? One of them specifically referenced a moment when she was about 10 years old

and she can remember that her dad used to make her call for pizza. As she put it, not my brother, not my mom, but me. And I hated it. These were her words. She didn't feel comfortable. She didn't want to do it, right? But her dad coached her through it. And she never really liked it.

It wasn't her thing. But then later on when she was in middle school and she had trouble in a math test through math class, her dad coached her through how to talk to the math teacher. Right. And so on and so forth. And over time, it positioned her for what she needed in the real world. And even though it happened, unfortunately, while she was still in high school, but she responded as we hope all our daughters and all young women would.

And yet when we look at statistically, it's not really, it's not often what happens. Only one and four women who are harassed in college reported. Right. And so it's the trick is how do you prepare our girls to be ready for that? It's a hard, you know, the unfortunate situation that many of our girls find ourselves in. But it goes back to this coaching from the sidelines lesson, this message that I think all dads out there can hopefully find little ways, not about changing everything you do, but just finding little ways to coach. So help them find them find. their voice and there are little tactics along the way, have them order their meal at the restaurant,

you don't order for them, have them call to order the pizza, have them introduce themselves and shake hands from a very young age. These little things compound and add up over time to where it just becomes the standard. It becomes the normal thing to do that you find your voice. And you shared a story about your sophomore year in college when you were training and training for the military. And I think you said it was the first time you lost your voice. And I feel like it's a powerful story. Could you share what was going on then and what you learned from it? Yeah.

It's one that stands out for me. And it was a moment when a senior military officer, I was at summer training. And a military officer who was senior to me at the time, not incredibly senior, but he was a lieutenant. And I was just the midshipman. So very junior, still the equivalent of a condition. debt in training. And he commented that, you know, the pursuit of my dream of flying was, you know,

I don't know, I think he used the word silly. He just, you know, basically implied it wouldn't happen because I was a girl. He's like, that's not for you. You're a woman. And then he sort of said, well, maybe that's why they'd let you do it, right? As in, you know, the implication of, well, there's a quote, I wouldn't be qualified, but you could get in for that reason. And I remember, and, you know, mind you, I was fortunate to grow up and go to the school I now lead. So I grew up and went to Baldwin and all-girls school. I grew up in a place where, you know, the whole message mission was empowering young women. So I had been, perhaps a little protected from sort of that message early on. And so it was one of the first times where so directly, I was struck with

this blatant gender discrimination, blatant bias. And I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to say. And, you know, it strikes me as something that I hope every girl has a message in their hip pocket to respond in that moment in a way that feels right to them. Again, that's something that starts young. So it's about learning of girls their voice and then helping practice when things don't go right. And so those are those other moments too that we can all coach from the sidelines as they're young and help them work their way through it because they'll get better at it when they're

older. I think you mentioned this at the very beginning and I want to bring it back. Practice is very useful. I mean, that's the most obviously that makes so much sense. But we know this yet we don't do it. Like, why wouldn't you practice how to open when you're going to meet someone at a coffee shop? Or why wouldn't you practice how to order or practice how to walk into an office for your first interview? Why would you not?

And I think that is indicative of the way you think. And I think the students that your teaching are so lucky. I would say, given that you're not just thinking about like, okay, let's do leadership philosophy 101. and you start talking about, you know, team of rivals, which is a great book, by the way. But you get actually real tactical and practical with it. I think that makes so much sense that all of us could learn more from, both as leaders and businesses, as well as as moms and dads. Yeah.

I think it's something we all need to remember at every stage of our lives, every stage of our careers, this idea that practice, practice, practice, right? It makes a difference whether you're walking in the room to negotiate or they're walking in the room for a big pitch. or, and I saw this in the White House, right, or whether you're walking in the room to brief the president or the chief of staff. I mean, it always struck me,

and I would see this happen when, you know, I went in for a briefing with the then chief of staff to the president, and it was myself and another colleague, and the other colleague's manager had made him practice, had literally run him through the traps, and it was a regular weekly briefing. It wasn't like, you know, there wasn't an audience,

it was in the room. It wasn't, candidly, it was a big deal because it's the chief of staff of the, you know, to the president, but it was just a regular briefing. And yet, he knew that every time you practice, you're going to get better. You're going to look better. Your message is going to sound better. Your team's going to look better. So they practice. And sure enough, right, like it went more smoothly. The questions went off better. Like, he just knew and felt more confident. And that was somebody who wasn't early in their career. That was someone who already reached, you know, the pivotal point of being

sort of at the White House briefing, briefing the chief of staff. So I think it's something we can all remember and take hard in now with our kids, right? That we're practicing with them too and not in a bad way, you know, it's a funny way. Every moment with them is an opportunity to help them practice, you know, the little things that they might need later on.

So you can make it fun. I don't have to feel like crazy work for them and make it fun about this is, this is the way that we work to behave and it will benefit us a long term. Marissa, normally I would ask us at the beginning, but I want to bring it at the end because I, I just, I absolutely love your story and what you do. You spent, you know, like I said, you spent time in the Navy.

You spent time with some of the greatest leaders at the White House. You've traveled all over the world. You've negotiated with terrorists. And so you've seen the good and the bad and everything in between. When you think about leaders who have sustained excellence, what have you found to be some of the virtues or commonalities that they all share? Yeah. I think I'll, I'll break it apart into two things. When you say the sustained part and the excellence part, I think for the sustained part, it's

really about how we learn from failure. And I say failure, I mean failure with a little F, right? The hiccups of every day and sort of how we bounce back and what we do next. And I think that's an incredibly important part of being a leader. And it's also an incredibly important skill to teach our kids. And so I think now, you know, the stories I tell my, my girls about that time in the White House when I was in a meeting with the president and didn't say a word, right, like a big, that was a failure for me in many sense. And there are the longer

stories in the book. So please encourage you the why behind it, right? But it's what happens next, right? They remember it. And then they remember how I rebounded. They remember what happens next, right? And those are moments that are so important for the sustaining of the excellence, right? Because we're all going to hit it. For the excellence part of the phrase, I'll say, it's really about your people. the most impactful leaders I've worked with or alongside or looked up to have all really, in good times and bad, made it about other people. And I can remember when I landed in Afghanistan the first time, and we were talking about General McChrystal earlier, so this came to mind. But a colonel I was working alongside. The very first thing he said, as I pulled up next to him and sort of

plop down my stuff, he turned to me and said, have you called your mother? And when I admitted I hadn't, he handed me a calling card and you said, go call home. You have to tell your mother. You have to tell your you arrive safely. And it had struck me ever since as this moment where, you know, when you're in the middle of a war zone in combat, I was there to do a job and, you know, there's a hundred things we could all have been doing. But the thing that he was most keen to make sure of was that I as a human being was okay and that my family knew it too. And I think those are moments when we invest in our people in that way, that's where excellence comes from because we're only as excellent as our teams, our organizations. And I know I'm sure for all the leaders listening, you know that too. And this is,

particularly an important time right now this year to figure out little ways that we can invest in our people. What a great story. One more question, Marissa. Let's say you're speaking directly to the parents of teenage girls. This is a selfish question, but I know there are others out there. What are some general pieces of life slash parenting advice? for a mom and a dad of teenage girls.

Yeah. Oh. I know this is big. I'm sorry to do this. No, no. I had to. I had to. Yeah.

I think it's, you know, I think parenting is so hard, right? And yet it's about realizing that those small things make a big difference. Right. So for everyone out there to remember that, you know, everything we just talked about in some ways and now we just added to our laundry, long list of things that we need to do to be better managers, better leaders, better people, and better parents, right? And parenting is tough enough without adding to it. And yet, particularly for our young girls, particularly for our teenage girls, little things make a big

difference, right? They stop up things we're hearing and seeing. They are watching us like hawks sometimes, right? And it doesn't mean we have to be perfect at all. But it just means we have to take small moments to do things like help them practice. Small moments to do things like reinforce much you value their voice and how you think it's important. You ask them about it. Take small moments to make sure that they hear, particularly from the dads and their moms, their role models every day, that you think they can do anything, right? Because that's what we hope for all of them, right? That no matter where they had next personally or professionally, they know that no door should be closed. And so I just think it's about finding those little moments and reinforcing all those things we just talked

about. Wow. Thank you. I know I set you over with an impossible question, but you killed it. So thank you so much for being here, Marissa. I, regardless of if you're a dad of daughters, maybe listening or anybody, as we said at the beginning, you don't have to be a feminist to care about these issues, nor do you need a daughter or a sister. You just have to know a girl or young woman care about her future. And the books titled, What Girls Need, How to Raise Bold, Courageous, and Resilient Women. And if you're a senior leader and all you care about is your profit and your revenue and success, it will help you too because you'll learn more about the benefits of having strong women on your team.

And the number will go up if that's all you care about. I hope it's not. And I don't think a listener of the show is that way, but I'm just saying if that's a part of it, that is there too. Marissa, where would you send my listeners to learn more about you online? Oh, well, thank you. So my website, Marissa Porges.com, M-A-R-I-S-A-P-O-R-G-E-S dot com. And there you can get the book as well as those other readings and references for parents, for educators,

but also for, as you've said, leaders who want to empower the women on their team and make sure that, you know, we can make them their best selves and it's going to just be helpful for everyone. Love it. Again, what girls need, how to raise bold, courageous, and resilient women? Marissa, I'd love to continue our dialogue as we both rest. This was fantastic. Yeah, it was one for me too. Thank you, Ryan. All right, thank you.

All right, to close this one out, I'm going to answer another question from a loyal listener of the Learning Leader Show. As you know, I love alliteration. This one comes from Amanda Wilson. Now, Amanda joined one of my leadership circles at the beginning of 2020, and she has since become a great friend. Here is Amanda's question. Curious, what have you seen as the best, quote, self-awareness tool or assessment? When leading others, it's easy to think you are doing a good job because you care. But intentions and how others perceive it are rarely 100% in sync.

I'm sure you're going to tell me to do a 360 review because I can hear you saying this. but I'm not certain I'd get accurate results based on the size of my team. I am going to challenge you, Ryan, to think of another tool slash assessment as well. And Amanda added a nice smiley face. My response is I thought deeply about this Amanda and went back to my conversation with the great Tasha Eurek. I had her on my podcast a few years ago and she wrote a bestselling book, titled Insight. And it's all about self-awareness.

And I read a few articles about her and her thoughts prior to responding to this. And here's a few things I picked up from Tasha. So first you have to understand your internal and external self-awareness. They're two separate parts. Also, I wrote a few pages about this in my book, Welcome to Management, if you want to dig in even more. But here are a few of the questions to ask yourself in regards to self-awareness. First, for internal self-awareness, ask yourself, how well do you understand your values and motivators? Ask yourself, do you know what you are striving for? Do you pay attention to how you

react to certain situations? That's for the internal. Not for the external self-awareness. If the people around you had to guess what your values and ambitions are, do you think they'd guess correctly? Have you looked into others' opinions on the way you react to things? Do you know how other people feel about your impact on their lives? Now, developing external self-awareness is a complex process. You have to think about the way other people think about your life. you. This may feel unfair and depressing, but to begin any kind of self-improvement and develop self-awareness, you have to be aware of what needs fixing. Further, here are a few action steps to work on your

self-awareness. One, learn how to recognize good feedback. You want feedback from people who know you well, but are not biased and are not afraid to share the truth with you. And to do that, you need to create an atmosphere where people won't regret being honest, meaning you can never lash out at those giving you feedback. You have to prepare yourself to respond to criticism in order to continually receive useful feedback from other people. The development of your own self-awareness is a continuous, ongoing, lifelong process.

You never arrive. You just have to keep going to become better and better and more self-aware. You have to surround yourself with those people who you value, who you trust, who you believe have your absolute best interest at heart to give you regular feedback

on a consistent basis and know that you desire to regularly improve and have awareness about your strengths and weakness areas. In doing so, we'll make you an overall better leader. We all can envision that boss we've worked for that where you've said to others, man, he has no self-awareness. And conversely, we all know that boss that we were so lucky. to work for where we said, wow, she is fantastic and has a real feel for her strengths, her weaknesses, as well as her impact, her wake, her weight of words with our team. She has a

high level of awareness and that's the type of leader we want to work for. Amanda, I hope that is helpful. I hope for anyone who has questions about self-awareness, that is helpful. And I just want to once again say thank you for asking a question. If you'd like to ask a question of me, you can email me, Ryan at learning leader.com. And I want to also say thank you to the loyal listeners, to you of the Learning Leader Show, because you continue to spread the word and tell a friend or two that they should listen to the Learning Leader Show, because you continue to write reviews on Apple podcast and then rate the show hopefully five stars you are spreading the world the word all over the world and because you continue to do that you give me the opportunity to do what i love on a daily

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