The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 404: Wendy Kopp - How To Create A Vision, Execute A Plan, & Engage Others

Episode Date: February 1, 2021

Text LEARNERS to 44222 for more... Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12 Wendy Kopp is CEO and Co-founder of Teach For All, a global network of independent organizations that are developing collective leadership to ensure all children have the opportunity to fulfill their potential. Today, more than 6,000 Teach For America corps members—outstanding recent college graduates and professionals of all academic disciplines—are in the midst of two-year teaching commitments in over 50 urban and rural regions. Notes: Jim Collins called Wendy "my entrepreneur for this decade." He continued, "Her organization is truly an entrepreneurial creation that is out to utterly transform education. It's taking an entrepreneurial, let's-do-something approach to tackling a massive social problem." Goal setting: It's all about setting a goal that's at the right intersection of ambitious and feasible. The #1 responsibility of a leader is to catalyze a clear and shared vision for the company and secure commitment to and vigorous pursuit of that vision. The differentiator is the "first WHO" principle. It's what she's learned. What is it that drives system change in education? "Jim thinks it's the answer in corporate America, I think it is the difference in social change." Wendy grew up in a bubble in Texas. She didn't realize the inequity and disadvantages to children born in different situations. At the end of her college years at Princeton, she wrote a 100+ page thesis. She narrowed down to 30 pages... And created a four page plan. She mailed her thesis to 30 executives in an effort to spread awareness and raise money  Everywhere she went, people said, "This is a great idea but college kids won't do this." Wendy was steadfast in her belief that they would... After the first year, Wendy found herself on stage speaking to 500 "Teach For America" teachers... The benefit of naivete: "The world needs you before you become jaded by your experience."  "We need leaders to channel their energy in marginalized communities." What was the key to the first year growth? "It helped writing a plan. I sent 100 letters to potential donors and got rejected or ignored by 98 of them." You have to persevere and have conviction for the idea. Leadership - An idea that magnetizes people. People were drawn to Wendy's mission and purpose. Strategic Framework - What is your core purpose? The core values are what brings people together. Create a sense of mission - "You need to enable a diverse group of people. Articulate it and make it possible for others to engage." Recruit people from a wide variety of backgrounds. Diversity is very important. Why did Wendy do this instead of take a job that would pay well? "I knew myself well. I knew that whatever I did, I would throw myself at it 24/7. I wanted to have a bigger impact on the world." "What keeps me at it? I started gaining the sense of responsibility for so many others." How Teach For America helped Washington D.C. "I met with so many civic leaders who said, 'We've tried everything and it won't work.' DC was 2 years behind Harlem from an educational perspective with their public schools." Washington DC was completely transformed by Teach For America and now has one of the better public school districts in America. How is she so humble? "I realize we're going to get so much wrong." Must learn from what goes wrong and improve moving forward What are some "must-have" leadership qualities? Look at what people have accomplished How have you managed through challenges? People who are passionate about the purpose People who live into the values Optimism Commitment to diversity and inclusiveness What's currently exciting? Seeing the leadership effects in others from Pakistan to Peru The power of locally rooted leadership Commonalities of leader who sustain excellence: Put impact first... Ahead of career ambitions Solve problems Perseverance Optimism Humility - Constantly learning Act on conviction What does Wendy do for fun? Runs and listens to books while running. Which books? Human Kind by Rutger Bregman Reinventing Organizations by Frederic Laloux Life advice: "Solve as early as possible." "Do not put off your passion until after you've had a job for a few years." "Don't think you have to start something new." Look for others who are doing it and join them...

So that was my starting conviction, right? Like the power of locally rooted leadership and just recognizing that we would never see the kind of transformational change in education without deeply locally rooted leadership. But what I've also learned through this global work is that we've really underestimated how shareable the solutions are across borders, meaning when those local leaders are exposed to other local leaders from other communities, that they gain a real understanding of like what's working in these other communities and of the new innovations, they move a lot faster. So I've just realized we're really onto something that could hugely grow the force of locally rooted and globally informed leaders. Because we have a way of, you know, building communities among them and helping them all learn from each other. And I just think that has the potential to hugely accelerate progress in education. Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show presented by Brixie and Meyer.

I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text learners to 4-4-2-2-2 in order to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other leaders from all over the world, can receive a carefully curated email. I send every Monday, 9 o'clock Eastern. That is packed with insightful articles, ideas, books, podcast, videos, as well as more details about how my book, welcome to management, will help you become a more effective leader. Become part of Mindful Monday.

Text learners to 4-4-222. Now on tonight's feature leader, the great Wendy Copp. I had Jim Collins on this podcast and asked him, Jim, who is the most impactful leader you know? And he said, Wendy Kopp. She founded Teach for America during her senior year in college 30 years ago. She went from a one-person startup nonprofit to an organization that now has over 1,800 employees and over a $350 million budget with more than $65,000 alumni, an incredible job she has done and something extraordinary she's built. She's also found a teach for all, which is helping leaders in more than 53 countries worldwide. A few of the topics we discussed,

how to create and more importantly execute a plan, than how to bounce back from failure, how to create a sense of mission and how to catalyze a clear and shared vision with your team. This one is such a treat. Ladies and gentlemen, you're going to love it. It's Wendy Cop. Wendy, it's good to see you. Thank you for being here on the Learning Leader Show. Thanks so much for having me. I, um, so this stems from my most recent conversation with Jim Collins. Towards the end of that, I said, Jim, who do you think is one of the most impressive and effective leaders in the world. And I thought Jim might struggle. I thought he'd like, well, there's a handful. And he didn't at all. In fact, he did the opposite. He goes, oh, it's Wendy Cop. And I said,

really, tell me more about Wendy Cop. And he said, she just, she is a pure example of a world class leader and the fact that the number one responsibility of a leader is to catalyze a clear and shared vision for the company and secure commitment to and vigorous pursuit of that vision. And then he also said true leadership only exist if people follow when they would otherwise have the freedom to not follow. And he said, Wendy is a prime example of someone who gets people to follow when they have the freedom not to follow. When I share that with you, how do you feel? Oh, dear. Well, first of all, very grateful for Jim Collins is unbelievably. generous endorsement but and also just kind of I don't know a little humbled by it.

You know, so. Well, I, it certainly made me want to talk to you. And I did a lot of reading and research leading up to this because I became fascinated by your story. And so I like for you to take us back when you are an undergraduate student. And maybe even you can, if you want to. want to take a step before then because I think you learned some things growing up in Texas that led you to decide what you wanted to do for your life and for your mission and for how you

wanted to help other people. Can you, I don't normally do this, Wendy, but in your case, I want to because I think it's worth it and it will help us tell the story as we go. So can you take us back to those earlier moments in your life and how they led you to do what you do today? Sure. I mean, I grew up in a community. community in Dallas, Texas that calls itself the bubble for its complete lack of diversity and disadvantage. I mean, my parents had kind of bought their way into that community so that I and my brother could attend the, you know, very strong and recognized kind of public schools there. But I have to say, I really did grow up without an awareness of the inequities that kind of

persist in our country. And then I went to Princeton where, of course, you can't begin to see the depths of diversity and disadvantage or inequity and disadvantaged. But what I did see there was how differently prepared students were to do well there. And, you know, as a public policy major, and just as a concerned college student, I became more and more folks. focused on the inequities in our country and the fact that while we aspire to be and really claim to be a land of equal opportunity, we're really not one. Like where kids are born, the circumstances of their birth really predicts where they end up. And so this was all going on and I got to my senior year in college and, you know, like any college senior realized I have

to figure out what I'm going to do after I graduate. And I just found, myself, I mean, I had always been just, you know, one of these kids who's just running around, firing on all cylinders, just, you know, 24-7. And when I had to figure out what I wanted to do, I just descended into a funk. You know, for the first time in my life, I found myself just really searching for something I wasn't finding, you know, searching for an opportunity to make a real difference in the world, assume a significant responsibility that would enable me to do that. And at the time, you know, this was late 90s. All the recruiters were investment banks, management consulting firms, banging down our doors, asking us to commit just two years to work

in their firms. And I just didn't want to do that. And one day, this all came together and I thought, you know, why aren't we being recruited as aggressively to commit just two years to teach in our countries, urban and rural public schools. And that was really that, you know, that idea, I feel very privileged to have come to it because I've spent my last 30 years pursuing it and just feel very grateful for that. But I needed a thesis topic, proposed it in the thesis, you know, and it kind of all went from there. What was the thesis? What was the one phrase, is the one sentence that that kicked this project off that later would become your life's work? I mean, the thesis was called a plan and argument for the creation of a national teacher court.

And, you know, you're 22 at this time, 21, 22? Yeah, I was 21. I mean, who thinks like that, though? Not me. I mean, I was really blessed with a lot of naivete. I mean, you know, it was one of these things, I have to say. the timing was so perfect. And it was one of these ideas where you would tell someone this idea,

and they would just say, doesn't that already exist? Like, I spent half my time in the thesis writing trying to figure out who is trying to start this because it was just so clear that it needed to happen. So, yeah. What happened next? Well, I wrote the thesis and sent it out to,

I mean, I was really blessed with a lot of, you know, all the advantages of naivete and inexperience. I boiled it down into 30 pages and sent it to, you know, 30 executives, meaning literally, I mean, first of all, there was an article in Fortune magazine about how corporate America was going to take on education reform and all the executives quoted in the article. I just sent it to and said, I'd love to talk to you about this. And then I added in other random companies like Delta Airlines and whatever. I mean, there was no email at the time. I'm like sending like, you know, mail following up with phone calls. And, you know, I got a few meetings.

And I knew I had to get a seed grant. Someone would need to fund me to do this because I had no money after I graduated. And someone gave me a seed grant, an executive at Mobile Oil Company Corporation. And that enabled me to spend the summer just, you know, pursuing it, trying to meet everyone I could. to see if it could work. I was really just exploring people in school districts, potential donors, educators and others. And what was interesting was everywhere I went,

people said, this is a great idea. College students will never do this. So that became my plan. We'll show everyone that the college students want to do this, and then everything else will come together. And a kind of motley crew of other, recent college graduates and I started launching a grassroots recruitment campaign on 100 campuses like flyers under doors, you know, and within three or four months, about 2,500 people had

applied. Anyway, one thing led to another. And, you know, a year after I graduated, I was looking out on an auditorium full of 500, you know, the first 500 teach for America core members. can you share some of the benefits of being naive of thinking you could potentially do something that you know looking back would you have even tried because i think there is a benefit at times for people to lean into almost what they they don't know what they don't know and in a sense the fact that you didn't fully know maybe how hard it was going to be was helpful and and i want to I share this part of the story to hopefully inspire other people to, to aim high, to think big, because there is a benefit to being naive about some of the work that it takes to make something happen.

Yeah, I always say, you know, to young people, like the world needs you before you become jaded by your experience. I mean, I've learned over time that the world needs you for your experience as well, but we really need people before they've embraced the status quo. And while they're still asking the crazy questions that have a lot of truth to them, you know, so I really think, I think it's really important. And that idea, you know, that's sort of at the core of what we're doing. We're saying, you know, we need and now all over the world, like the rising generation of leaders to channel their energy into the most marginalized communities

to, you know, work to have an immediate impact and start working to change these very inequitable systems. So I think the other advantage I had was just I knew I didn't know everything. And so that led me to really look for a lot of help and try to find a lot of people who have a lot of experience. And so I think it was the combination of those things that enabled it to work. You mentioned that a year in, you find yourself standing in front of 500 Teach for America teachers, an extraordinary growth from nothing to something very real. I know there's a lot to that. Two parts here. First, if you had to deconstruct how you want from zero to 500, what are some of the keys that led you to that? You know, and I always say like that's when this, that really was when the journey began, like once we got through that first year. I think it helped that I had to write a thesis. I, as part of that, you know, as I wrote the thesis, I became all the more to,

determined and decided I'm just going to try to make it happen. And I wrote a four-page plan in the thesis that just kind of broke down, here's how we're going to do this. And it, you know, with a budget and everything. And it, it, I really just basically followed that plan. So first of all, I mean, there was a lot of fact finding and, and such. Um, I think the end leading it to like, I think this part's important to talk about real quick that you didn't just wing it. You didn't just cross your fingers and hope for the best. You did your homework. you did your research, you wrote a plan, and you followed the plan. I remember my late, great Terry Hepburn, my college football coach at Miami University told me, guys have a plan, work the plan, and plan for the

unexpected. And it's obviously stuck with me many years later. I sense that this is a part of you, that you actually built a plan and then worked your plan. And that's what led to some of this initial growth. Yeah, I think that's right. And I also, You know, I would send out 100 letters to potential donors. I mean, I needed to somehow raise $2.5 million for this plan to come into fruition. And I would get two meetings off of 100 letters. But what I learned- Your handwriting or typing up letters and mailing.

Typing letters because- And your hit rate was 2%. That was my estimation of what my hit rate was. But think about like how awesome is that part of the story, though? Like some people think, oh, 100 emails would be a pain. No, how about typing up or handwriting 100 notes and having 98 people ignore you or say no? And what I learned through that is that that's okay. 98 people can say no as long as one really says yes.

And then you can leverage off of that one. So I think just the perseverance, which was enabled by my, I mean, I really did have a conviction in this idea. So yeah, that was a part of it. It was just the plain perseverance and the instinct that we've got to grow our allies. And we don't need everyone, but we need a lot of people to come together around this. The part of leadership, though, is essentially getting people to follow when they otherwise have the freedom to not follow. when you hear that statement of like that's that's that's one of the definitions of leadership that Jim and I talked about that you were so good at and continue to be really good at.

What do you think of when it comes to leadership and convincing people to follow when they otherwise have no because the reason that I think is important, there's a lot of people who have a big title and a big position within a company and people follow them because they have to because they don't want to get fired. They like their paycheck. They want to support their family, right? all viable reasons and options to follow somebody. But it's not necessarily committed type followership

or committed type leadership. It's doing it because of a title. In your case, you actually had real leadership where people chose to commit to follow you. I love to hear your mindset and framework around leadership in that regard. It's so interesting because I don't really take the credit for that, I guess. Like, I think this was from the start, and it's proven to be the case ever since and now even, you know, as a global matter, just an idea that magnetizes people. And, you know, I honestly, people were not following me, really. They were drawn to this mission and purpose and the values that it's built on. And that was just so clear in year one. And, You know, and I think over time, I mean, the one thing I have attempted to do to facilitate that, I mean, I spend so much time, you know, and now, you know, at Teach for all as well, just really thinking about the strategic framework. Like, what is the core purpose? You know, and working and with many, many others and kind of co-creating, but like, what are we all working towards? You know, what are the core values that bring us?

us all together and that characterizes when we're at our best. And I think just being clear about that, you know, I think it helps, it enables people to just, to just come be part of it and to understand how they can can work towards, you know, towards this purpose. How do you, how does one go about creating a sense of mission? This is something I feel like you've, you've done really well. How would you teach that to somebody else to do? Oh, heavens. I don't know. You know, I think, you know, I really do wonder, I'm not sure I could do it for something else.

You know, I mean, kind of inherent in this core idea was this idea that, you know, we need to enable, you know, a very diverse group of people of their whole careers ahead of them to chance. their energy towards, you know, ensuring the next generation has the opportunity to shape a better future for everyone. Like that, and I think it's just articulating that and then making it possible for people to understand how to engage from wherever they are, whether they're, you know, the people who are signing up to teach and then make this their life's work, or the donors who are, you know, without whom we never could have, you know, gotten to this place. Yeah. Can you describe what Teach for America is for someone who does not know?

Sure. So, and maybe I'll even share what Teach for All is because I think it's, it'll help me, you know, so Teach for All is a network of organization. including Teach for America, but in 59 countries around the world in every region of the world. So these organizations are independent, locally led organizations, and they all share a common purpose, which is to develop collective leadership to ensure all children fulfill their potential. And what brings us all together is, you know, first of all, a commitment to tackle the fact that the circumstances of kids were, predict their outcomes. But secondly, an understanding that that is a very big complex systemic challenge.

And there's no one easy answer. Ultimately, we've got to affect system change in order to get where we're trying to go. And that means we need a lot of people exerting leadership, people at every level of the education system, every level of policy, really around the whole ecosystem around children. And so what each of these organizations is doing is working to develop that leadership by initially recruiting people from all backgrounds, all different academic backgrounds, often kind of recent college graduates and young professionals to commit just two years to teach in under-resourced environments.

And these organizations invest a lot in those teachers. pursuit of really important immediate impacts for kids, but also knowing that those two years are transformational for the teachers too. They change their career trajectories. They change their beliefs about what they can accomplish and what their students can accomplish. They change their understanding of the issues they're addressing and they fuel a lifetime of leadership. And so these people go on. Some of them stay in the classroom. Others become school leaders and school system leaders and social entrepreneurs or civic leaders, but they will never stop working towards this purpose. And I think the last thing to say is just the closer you get to these

organizations, the more you realize it's not only about the people we're recruiting and developing to teach and ultimately lead. It's about what they support and catalyzing others in their students, in the students' parents and other teachers in their schools and others in their communities. And I think it's all of that together that that ultimately generates the kind of collective leadership we need to actually tackle what can be a really entrenched problem, but but which we've seen is actually a really movable problem if you have enough people going at it. What made it so this such a strong topic or such a strong mission. for you because you could have easily gone out and got another job or got a job after graduating

from Princeton. You could have easily made a lot more money. You could have, you could have done many other things. What was it that said, no, this speaks to me so much that I want to write this thesis. I want to write this business plan that's good enough that I'm actually going to follow it. Why that as opposed to going the route that most people go, where they get a good job and they make good money and they and they do what they want to do at that point. And yet you said, nope, I'd rather start a nonprofit and write 100 letters and get answered by two people and face tons of rejection and challenges. What was it in you that you think made you want to do that? First of all, I knew myself and I knew, I mean, I'm the kind of person and I really was very conscious of this my senior year in college.

I knew I was going to work 24-7 at whatever I was doing. Like if one of those investment banks had hired me, probably I would have just been, you know, kind of really productive investment banker. And I just knew, like, I want to make sure that all of that exhausting energy is going towards something that is going to put the world on a different trajectory. And I also had this sense that what could have a bigger impact than enabling everyone else to make sure that their efforts and energy puts the world on a better trajectory. I mean, I think it was kind of, I mean, that's what got me into it. I think what kept me in it

was maybe different things at different ways. I mean, initially what kept me in it when I thought things were going to fall apart through many years in that early, you know, decade of Teach for America was just a sense of responsibility. Like, I don't want to let people down. And I couldn't figure out how to get anyone else to come save me and take it over. But as I saw it play out and saw the impact we were having, not only, you know, and even from year one and year two, and we were getting so much positive feedback from school principals and all, of course, that would keep you going. But I started seeing what it was adding up to. And, you know, I think about some of these communities in the U.S. where Teach for America has been placing teachers

for 20 and in some cases 30 years. And I just remember where things were in those communities 20 or 30 years ago. And, you know, there's in many of those places, there's a tremendous, as much as there is still to be done, which is an enormous amount, there's just been tremendous progress in terms of even just looking at the data, you know, student proficiency levels, student graduation rates, students from these urban systems. going to college, graduating from college. We've really seen significant movement in some of these areas. And many things have contributed to that.

But I know that if you took all this Teach for America alumni out of the picture, the people who committed just two years and never left, 86% of Teach for America's 70,000-some alumni, you know, you would just take away a lot of the energy and leadership that's driven the change in those communities. So over time, what I've realized is this really is, you know, I think it's really interesting. Like I go back to Jim Collins because one of his, his big things is, you know, what differentiates the most effective companies is that they're obsessed with their people. Like they, you know, they put people first. It's like first who, you know, and I just think that's what I've discovered about what drives social change. It's like, we need to take a people-first approach.

And so I feel that we're on to something that is so fundamental to what actually drives social change. And, you know, so that's what's keeping me in it now. I just can't imagine how I could make a bigger impact than through growing this network and supporting these network partners to scale and to learn from each other. I believe one of those areas is Washington, D.C. and can you share the story about the challenges of of making that a better place for people to grow up and how the impact of your organization has had on a place. I just want to point out.

I know there's tons of examples, but that's one of them, as well as the stories and things that you were hearing as you were attempting this, this crazy goal and people told you you were crazy. And yet. Yeah. So, you know, I think about this, you know, example because it couldn't have been much more than maybe it was 15 years ago, you know, where I was still fully focused on Teach for America. I had my head down. We were trying to get bigger and better. And I was running around Washington, D.C., alongside our then executive director there, trying to help her raise funds, you know, to grow our impact in Washington, D.C. And, you know, we met with so many of the really wonderfully civic-minded leaders there. And what we heard back and really, I mean, they still remember these conversations because they've reminded me of them was we've tried everything.

Like, we have thrown everything at the Washington, D.C. public schools, and we can assure you they will not change. And I just think that's, I mean, at the time of all the major urban districts, the kids in D.C. were two years behind the other kids. Like it was it was the lowest on the list. The kids were two years behind the kids in Harlem. And it just felt very hard to change. But, you know, as you may know, Washington, D.C. is now the fastest improving school system in the country. And you can look at any number of metrics from, you know, enrollment rates to graduation rates to, you know, the percentage of kids taking advanced placement exams to the proficiency levels on the national assessment. of educational progress and there's just been like that system is really getting stronger. And many things contributed to this, many things, many things well outside of Teach for America. But it's also true that Teach for America people played a really big role. I mean, they led the school system as the school's chancellor for a decade. During that time, they were 75% of the district's cabinet.

it. They ran 20 to 25% of the school principals at any given time through that decade. There were hundreds of teachers. They ran so many of the NGOs supporting the change, state superintendent of education, the deputy mayor to, you know, for education to the, to the mayor. Like, they really helped fuel alongside many others that progress. And I've seen that same movie playing not only in many of the systems that are seeing really transformational progress in the U.S., but now all over the world. And that's what's so, you know, it's what's built my conviction in this work. How does that make you feel?

You know, I will admit, I probably don't, you know, it makes me feel that it's a real privilege to do the work. That's honestly what it makes me feel. There are so many people pouring their hearts and souls and their brilliance into, you know, and just shouldering the immense responsibility that comes along with these organizations, you know, all across the U.S. and all across the world, and particularly the teachers and the alumni leaders who are pioneering new, you know, and just really fighting some of the world's biggest inequities. So I am inspired every day to be part of it. And also caught up in like all the daily, you know,

all the challenges of saying like, you know, because we're still in such an inequitable state. And in fact, as we speak with all of the associated challenges of COVID, you know, we kind of have a choice. Like we could let things get much worse for this generation that's growing up today. or we could really lean into the possibilities of the moment and get on a better trajectory than we were on before. And that's going to require a whole different level of leadership. So that's what I think about. Where do you think your humility comes from? I think I've become more humble through the

journey in all honesty. It's just so hard. If anyone has earned the right to beat their chest and say, look at what I've done, you're certainly at the top of that list. And yet maybe, maybe from the outside. But if you're in it, it's, you know, this is also like, you know, maybe it's the nature of the work. Like as much as you might, like, I've just kind of embraced, we're going to get so much wrong. Like, if, you know, we're never where we, where we need to be. And there's always something, whatever we think the answer is today, it will most certainly not be. Like, so I think there's something about just the reality. And, of this kind of work and this kind of journey that is very that makes you realize how much you still need to learn what do you mean by i love the i love the i love the phrase of of um not being surprised that you're going to get something wrong you're trying to be less wrong you're trying to get better you're having this mindset that it's it's okay and we're striving to get better but what what's an example or two of something where you thought for sure you were right and

you were wrong. And maybe part of that example, you can share what you learned from that moment that made you better moving forward in this path. There are so many examples. I mean, and it's really hard to predict. You know, I think about this may be a tough example, But, you know, I think about, like, the journey of scaling Teach for America, you know, and the journey of scaling Teach for All. I mean, I think these experiences have taught me different things, you know. And, you know, Teach for America scaled really quickly, right? Like, after a decade of, you know, several near-death experiences and immense learning curves on all fronts, we started growing. growing and really teach for America in maybe 15 years grew from, you know, a $10 million

budget and a thousand teachers across 13 communities to something like, you know, almost 8,000 at one point across 50-some communities and with a $350 million budget. And we did that. I mean, we had really many hard-won lessons about, you know, how to scale with quality. And, you know, and we lived into those lessons and, and, you know, we scaled through a, you know, it wasn't that centralized an approach, but compared to, you know, sort of what we're doing across Teach for all, it was very centralized. So it never would have occurred to me that there would even be a different way to think about it. But once I got into a different context altogether and started meeting people around the world who wanted to do something similar to Teach for America in their

countries and kind of realize it's not going to work if we take that approach to scaling it. Like we're going to need to do this differently. And I didn't see an option, but to try a network approach where we would, you know, figure out what had to be true, like the few principles and then, you know, kind of figure out how to help people try to live into them. And, you know, it's just a very different approach. And what I've learned through this challenges all. of my convictions that I learned in the first scaling journey. So it's like that's so interesting. So now I ask myself all the time, like, what am I missing now?

Like I'm sure in 10 years I'm going to realize there's something much better. So it's just, it's seen, it's having many experiences about along those lines, whether it be around how to best develop teachers or, you know, how to, you know, do the next thing. I want to focus on the plan. You wrote a 30-page thesis with a four-page plan. Do you still have that, by the way? Well, the thesis was a long thing, and then I boiled it down into it. But the thesis was like 189 pages.

I still remember with a four-page plan, and it does exist somewhere, although it's probably a very embarrassing read. So I don't look back at it. Are you willing to share it? I think it's in the Princeton Library. Honestly, you do not want to go look at that. I do want to look at that. I love looking at someone who has had the guts to put something together.

I mean, nobody's plan is going to obviously, you look at it many years later, but I guarantee there are nuggets that we could find within that plan. And maybe you could, if you could even think about, take us back to that time. Because the reason, Wendy, that I bring this up is because there are people right now who are inspired by your story that are in the planning stage. and you sharing some of the plan, what went right, what went according to plan, what was completely wrong, hearing that makes us feel a little bit better. It makes us feel inspired as well because there are parts of that plan that you probably nailed it, like right on. And there are

parts that, you know, you were naive and didn't fully know everything. So are there anything you could remember that you would pull that say this part of the plan was dead on? on. This part was, I didn't know what I was talking about because I think that could be helpful for people as they're in the planning stage right now. What's interesting is that that plan sort of worked, you know, like we did what we said we were going to do. We inspired thousands, 2,500 of people, to respond to this grassroots recruitment campaign. We selected 500 of them. We assembled a team of very highly regarded kind of urban teacher educators and veteran teachers to train them. We placed them in schools.

I mean, we kind of did the plan. I didn't have a plan beyond year one. And I think when they got out in schools and started teaching, we realized just how much of a learning curve was in front of us, how hard it was going to be to actually do this well. to recruit and select people who are ready for this, to train and support them to really succeed with their students and not just survive as new teachers,

to learn the right lessons, like the lessons that come from success, to gain more commitment to addressing these issues over time and not become disillusion. Like, there were just huge programmatic learning curves. I could not have begun to get it right. And then there were huge other learning curves. Like how in the world are we going to?

Like those people thought they were giving me startup grants. You know, how were we going to sustain this financially? How was I going to manage, I don't know, 50 people who then worked on our staff a year in across these two. I mean, I had no idea. So there was just a lot that I hadn't anticipated. Yeah. So you've had to, you've built and scaled. And along the way, you've hired people.

And Wendy, I'm curious for someone like you, what are some must have qualities in a person to become a leader as part of your team? Well, that's that should not be a hard question. You know, I guess the first thing I really do is look at what people have done before. And, you know, how they've reacted when they've encountered challenges, you know, and because that's the best predictor I've found of how they will do in the future. And so that's one thing I really look for. I mean, clearly we're looking for people who really want to be part of this work. and, you know, are passionate about about this purpose and about taking the work to the next level and who have the kind of diverse skill sets, you know, that we need in order to do that.

But then I think just like really looking for evidence in their past that they have lived into, you know, the values that they'll need to live into, you know, within. within our own organization. What are some of the values that you value the most in a person? I would say, I mean, two of our values. One is constant learning, like, you know, really constantly recognizing that all of us have so much to learn. That's just such a core value for our whole network.

I would say sense of possibility, you know, really approaching things with optimism, recognizing what we ourselves can achieve and recognizing in our case the potential of kids and families and others in marginalized communities, a real commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusiveness, you know, we've really seen, and I think, I keep mulling on your humility question because I think probably the biggest journey for me has been, you know, going from an individual contributor, right? Like got the thesis, put the mailboxes together, realized, like, if the money was going to come in, I was going to ask for it.

Like, you know, towards, you know, recognizing that individual leaders alone are never going to get us where we need to be, like, in a problem in an arena this complex where, you know, the answer, there won't ever be one answer and there will always be a better answer. And so the real trick is to figure out how do we get enough people with diverse perspectives to contribute and really help those folks coming from all sorts of different backgrounds and especially inclusive of people who themselves have experienced the inequities we're addressing because through their lived experience, they will gain, you know, the most rooted perspective on what needs to happen. Like, how do we build an environment that enables everyone to contribute?

What excites you the most about what you're doing today? The reason I ask this is because you've accomplished so much to this point that if you said, you know, I need to chill out for a while, maybe go on vacation once we're allowed to do all these things, people would say, you've earned it, Wendy. And instead, it doesn't feel like you're doing that, at least from my perspective. You're grinding just as hard as ever now on Teach for All. So what excites you the most about what you are doing today? I truly believe, I mean, we are just getting started. You know, I think about like- It's kind of amazing to hear you say that, though. I know. I won't think about how much went into just getting started because that would be too depressing,

but, you know, it is so inspiring. I mean, I'm, you know, it's kind of amazing to think about. And we launched Teach for All 13 years ago. And of course, Teach for America, had a long history before that. And so did teach first in the UK, which was the first kind of adaptation outside of the U.S. But in that time, I mean, you know, we now have these 59 thriving organizations that are, and I think, you know, seeing them improving on what we did, seeing them pioneering, you know, meaning what I initially did through Teach for America.

I mean, they're, you know, there's such brilliant, deeply committed people in such diverse context, just pioneering new solutions. And I think what I've realized is that, like, there are two things that excite me about the potential of this work. One is just seeing the leadership effects of this. approach. And I think it's one thing to see it in your own country. And you kind of, you know, I was, I was a deep believer in Teach for America then. But I mean, even deeper believer now, having seen the same effects play out in such diverse context from, you know, Pakistan to Peru to the next

place. I mean, it's just like there's something in this that develops the kinds of leaders we need. So seeing that and then also seeing, so that was my starting conviction, right, like the power of locally rooted leadership and just recognizing that we would never see the kind of transformational change in education without deeply locally rooted leadership. But what I've also learned through this global work is that we've really underestimated how shareable the solutions are across borders, meaning, you know, when those local leaders are exposed to other local leaders from other communities so that they gain a real understanding of like what's working in these other communities and of the new innovations, they move a lot faster. So I've just realized we're really onto something that could hugely grow the force of locally rooted and globally informed leaders because we have a way of, you know, building communities among them and helping them all learn from each other. And I just think that has the potential to hugely accelerate progress in education. Wendy, you've spent a great deal time around other really effective and impressive. of leaders. I know you believe in the power of who. And I'm curious when you take a step back and analyze and think about leaders who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time,

what are a few of the behaviors and or qualities that those people seem to possess? that's a really good insightful question um you know i think there it's kind of some of the stuff we've already discussed in terms of just really putting impact first like what matters is not you know winning or you know their own you know whatever um career progression or whatever it may be but it's really solving problems and having an impact. You know, and the perseverance and resilience and ability to remain optimistic and keep driving in the face of real setbacks. And just an ethic of constant learning and humility, like recognizing,

I mean, I always think it's like you want people who act on their conviction. I have no shortage of that. So I don't want you to get the wrong idea. I mean, I think I'm not sure everyone would call me humble, actually. Like, but I think it's like you're trying to walk the right line between confidence and humility. Like there are some things we need to be confident about to stand strong on. And there are other things where we need to recognize that, you know, there's a lot we have to learn. And so it's kind of figuring out how you walk that.

line. What do you do for fun outside of work? Well, first of all, I have four kids. So it's like forced fun. I'm so grateful for that. And I think that was really helpful for me because without the four kids, I mean, I have the husband, but he has a big job too. So I could just, you know, work 24-7. I have to say, like, my life is pretty much. my kids and my husband, my job and my running. You know, I run every day without that. I would truly go. I think I might lose my mind.

Like it's really helps me gain the physical or the mental aspect of, of, I'm with you. I'm a seven day a weaker guy. My wife doesn't want me around her if I haven't worked out. So what is it about? I'm fascinated by this. This is a real thing for me is I'm curious for you. Is it both? What is the running?

I do think it's both. You know, I mean, I think I would be so unhealthy if I was just, especially in this era. Like I am like, you know, we could just all work and eat and drink all day long. Like it would just be bad. So yeah, I've got to get out and get some exercise. But it is also the mental space. You know, I started going on this kick a few months ago, which I still am sort of on, but like of listening to books while I run and I ran without listening to a book a few weeks ago and realized, oh dear, I need to go back to that. Like there's just a lot that goes on when you're when you're just in the zone, you know. Pain cave. You got to find something to help you manage it. Yeah. And I really think so it's it's mental health. It's everything. Any any books recently that have really jumped out at you that you love that you've listened to while running? One of my most recent books is a book called Humankind. It's by Rucker Bregman.

And it's, I would highly recommend it actually. I mean, it's a really, it's a research-based look at, I won't do justice to this, but at our conceptions of human beings and whether they're innately good or evil. You know, he starts by taking Lord of the Flies and saying, you know, like, that's shaped our psyche. And, I mean, it's just one of many examples. But, you know, we build schools, built prisons, laws, and pretty much everything to control people. And is it even true? Like, you know, like, and he really unpacks a lot of the examples and even psychological studies over time. and shows that they're actually not true.

Like these studies that have shown us that we all need to be controlled and kids need to sit in rows and behind desks and all to be, you know, productive and all. And he really unpacks it all and, you know, kind of challenges you to think, like, what if we were just approaching this all differently? And it's really, I have to say, and of course I love it because it resonates so much with what I've come to see.

Like I really do believe that there's a different way. a few years ago, I read a book called reinventing organizations that, you know, really, really had a massive impact on how I think about organizational development and on, you know, what we're, how we're aspiring to operate and teach for all, you know, which is, I think almost a corollary to humankind. I mean, it's like, it's rooted in the idea that, you know, we need to unleash everyone's leadership and our kind of command and control, hierarchical systems, you know, are not conducive to that. So like, you know, how can we operate in a way that really does that? So I would recommend both of those books. Wendy, there's a person listening

right now who is about to graduate college, much like you were, and they don't know what they want to do. They may have some offers from investment banks or other places like that. And they're not that excited about it. They think, oh, okay, maybe I'll do it because I don't know what else I want to do. And they are looking to you for advice. What are some general pieces of life advice you give to somebody earlier in their career when they're not quite sure what they want to do yet they do have a desire to make a positive contribution to the world? I would say, do not put off, you know, working your way towards your

true passion and purpose. I think there is all sorts of advice out there about, you know, get on the path, make some money, have some stability, and then you can go change the world. And I just think we need every year. Like the challenges we face as a society are so massive. And what I've learned over time is that we can solve them. We truly can. And you're, like the path of no regrets is to get into solving them as early as possible because, you know, like I'm so grateful for the fact that, I mean, I hope I have another 30 years. You know, like we could really make a difference in this and really, and, and, but it's hard. And there's a lot we don't know. So it is a journey. So I would just say don't put off the make a difference piece.

And the other thing I would say is, and this might sound a little ironic, but don't think you have to go out and start something. I mean, I did spend a lot of weeks looking for the person who was starting this or looking to see if it existed because it just needed to exist, right? And I think first gaining proximity to the issues you want to address and really embracing and coming to understand the landscape. I mean, you could say I didn't do that, like should I have taught first? and there's many, I mean, I often regret not having done that. But what I did know was the thing that no one else believed, which was college students. Like, that was the thing I knew. Like, actually, thousands of people want to channel their energy into working with the most marginalized kids.

And so I would say, you know, immerse yourself in what you're trying to solve. you know and that will ultimately lead you to the right thing. Wendy, you are inspirational. You truly are. I feel so grateful that you've chosen to invest your time with me today. Jim had set really high expectations and somehow, I know we got to talk a few times. I'm glad we got this one recorded, but you've somehow exceeded them. And I'm excited to talk with Mel and Jim and the whole Jim Collins team.

about you and I'd love to do anything I can to help support your mission and continually do it. And certainly would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress. Awesome. Well, I'd love that too. So thanks so much for having me. Absolutely. So good to talk to you. Thanks, Wendy.

Thank you. Wow. Wendy is on another level. I'm not sure I feel worthy, but very honored and proud to have her here on the Learning Leader Show. of my notes. When she talked about that, I first have to say, I admire the fact that, and we did this on video like I've been doing recently, which you can watch on YouTube.

I love the fact that she was patient and willing to think through her answers before immediately rattling something off. And I find those types of conversations much more interesting when someone has to pause and think from time to time. I really enjoy and try to let the silence happen when possible. I hope you could sense that and appreciate that about Wendy. I know I certainly do. A few of my notes.

So when she talked about the must have qualities in a leader, a sense of possibility, optimism, and a constant learner, love the qualities she appreciates in a leader. And then the importance of creating and executing a plan. There is value in the process of working on and creating your plan, even though you know nothing ever goes exactly according to your plan. Like the late great coach Terry Hepner told me, have a plan, work the plan, and plan for the unexpected. And then create a mission. You need to effectively articulate it and make it possible for other. to engage. And this is what Wendy has done so well over the past three decades. I absolutely

love this one. I hope you did as well. If so, I would love it if you would share it with a friend or two. You should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Wendy Copp. It will help you become a more effective leader. I'd also love it if you would write a review an Apple podcast. Hopefully rate the show five stars. That helps spread the message. to others. And because you continue to do that, spreading the message and writing reviews, telling friends, you continue to give me the opportunity to have these fascinating conversations with exceptional leaders like Wendy Kopp. And because you do that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so much. Talk to this soon. Can't wait.