The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 405: Ryan Deiss - How To Create Awareness, Tell Better Stories, & Build Your Brand

Episode Date: February 8, 2021

Text LEARNERS to 44222 for more... Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12 Ryan Deiss is a best selling author, founder of multiple companies collectively employing hundreds around the globe. He is the founder and CEO of DigitalMarketer.com and Founder and Managing Partner of RivalBrands.com and plattr.com. Ryan is the creator of the "Customer Value Optimization" methodology and have introduced and popularized many of the digital selling strategies. He is also the founder and host of the Traffic & Conversion Summit, the largest digital marketing conversion conference in North America. Notes: Commonalities of excellence: They understand why they've made mistakes - they learn why they've failed. They are purposeful about their decision making Appetite for risk: "I have a very low appetite for risk." "I value security." Must have qualities in a leader to hire on his team? "I want them to not be like me." Need to have skills that compliment his... Early on he hired people just like him. It was a mistake. Consistency - Must show up. A big heart - People who care about others and their work. Why writing is so important as a leader: Like academics being peer reviewed. "It forces you to crystalize your own ideas." "You need to say something new that hasn't been said before. And be willing to be criticized." Eugene Schwartz Breakthrough Advertising =  one of the best books ever written on marketing The Awareness Levels: Completely Unaware - They don't know they have a problem worth solving Problem Aware - They sense they have a problem, but don't know there's a solution Solution Aware - Know the results they want, but don't know your product provides it Product Aware - Know what you sell, but aren't sure it's right for them Most Aware - Repeat buyers and loyal customers who refer you to their friends How to make your leadership training better? Acknowledge their problem is real. Make them feel heard... Sell the soft. Speak into someone's reality. Acknowledge the pain, offer a solution... "Outsourced Leadership Development" "Your service is a vehicle to a more desired result." Be the "transportation to transformation." Scaling beyond a personality driven business: Get off the field, get in the owner's box. Productize yourself. Build an asset. Create ideas that travel - Have your version of 10 commandments on one single piece of paper Ryan has his "customer value journey" - The Customer Value Journey is about turning strangers into super-fans. Redirect it into the artifact Say "We" instead of "I" Give it a name - The genius is in the artifact The Goal is a book on manufacturing about assembly lines. They identified weakest link and fixed it. The value of creating of having a big event like Traffic & Conversion Summit: Create the place for others to go - It helps with branding, earning media, and the gathering spot for great people. It draws others to it. You become the connector. The host of the party. Story is the leverage of persuasion: Don't talk about yourself Help others change the story they tell about themselves Marketing shouldn't stop at the order - Marketing should own the entirety of the customer journey. Career wise - Get as close to the revenue as possible. Advice: Study old, rich, happy people.

Your job, I don't care what you're selling, your product, your service, it is a vehicle. It is a vehicle that transports people from less desirable before states to more desirable after states. That's it. That's what all of us are in the business of transformation and transportation. We transport people, we transform them from a less desirable before state to a more desirable after. This episode is brought to you by a company I have partnered with called Himalaya Learning.

Himalaya Learning is an audio learning platform that provides an extensive library of courses straight to your ears from the world's greatest minds like Malcolm Gladwell, Barbara Corker, and Tony Robbins, Tim Ferriss, Seth Godin, Linda Hill, and many more. Level up your knowledge with bite-sized, impactful lessons that help you conquer personal and professional milestones even when you're on the go. And now for the cool part, my course, learning to lead, is available now exclusively on Himalaya Learning. I've recorded 19 lessons and they are available to you now on Himalaya Learning to help you become a more effective leader. To listen to my course and others like it, go to Himalaya.com slash lead and enter promo code lead, L-E-A-D at checkout to get your first 14 days free. Go to hemalaya.com slash lead. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show presented by Rixie and Meyer.

I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text learners to 4-4-2-2-2 to become part of the Mindful Monday community. You, along with tens of facts. Thousands of other leaders from all over the world will receive a carefully curated note from me with some of the most useful articles, books, videos, and ideas to help you better lead your team. You'll also receive more details about how my book, Welcome to Management, will help you become a more effective leader. Text, learners to 4-4-222. Now on to tonight's featured leader, it's Ryan Dice, entrepreneur, author, and investor.

And according to Shark Tank star, Damon John, he said Ryan's companies practically own the internet. He is the founder and CEO of the scalable company and digitalmarketer.com. He spends the majority of his time helping others grow their businesses. A few of the topics we discussed. Ryan shares the modern marketing commandments and why they'll help you regardless of your job. Then he shares the must have qualities he looks for when hiring for a leadership role. And then how to become a better writer and story. storyteller and why both are critical leadership skills.

Ladies and gentlemen, it's Ryan Dice. Ryan Dice, good to have you here on the Learning Leader Show. Welcome, man. Thanks for having me. I, so you have an incredible story. There's a lot to get to. I want to start with excellence, okay?

And I have a fascination with leaders who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time. I study them regularly. I'm regularly writing about them. And you are one of those. And in addition to that, you've surrounded yourself with others who have done the same. When you think about people who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time, what are some of the commonalities they share?

Yeah, I mean, I think it has less to do with always being right and more to do with never being arbitrary. Because, I mean, a lot of the, and I would definitely, I wouldn't, I appreciate the compliment, by the way, I receive it. Thank you, but I'm humbled by it because I think of all the people who have done so much more than I have. So if I'm thinking about them, they all made mistakes, oftentimes really big, tragic, idiotic mistakes. But most of them, you know, when you talk to some of these folks, they understood why they were making the decision. I don't necessarily mean like a personal failure. I mean like a strategic failure, right? We all have a personal failure.

I've set that in a different category. When it comes to sustained excellence, So much it was just about being able to survive the failures. And what that looks like is knowing why you failed. And I think it's really hard to know why you failed if you didn't know why you made the decision. So that's why I think just knowing the why at the outset, I think it'll help you avoid a lot of mistakes because there's lots of times where we wanted to do stuff. And like, why do we want to do that? It's like, well, because I just kind of want to. Well, it's maybe not a good reason, you know, to do it. And so by first making sure, we're not going to make this decision

arbitrarily, right? We're going to, we're going to unpack it. You know, we're going to, say like, what's the best case scenario? What's the worst case scenario? What can go right? What could go wrong? If this doesn't work, what would be the plan B and C? You know, think it through that on the outset. And then saying, okay, we're going to do it because we believe that we believe this to be true. We're making the following assumptions. So we're going to move forward. Now, if it doesn't work, very often you've got a built-in plan B or C. So that, again, sustained success. Don't just fail completely. But if it does fail, you can go back and reverse engineer and kind of do that post-mortem and say, ah, we made this assumption. That assumption. That assumption.

turned out not to be true. Let's learn from that. And so that's what I think sustained. It's not about, you know, it's, it's about sustaining through failure, which I think is about not being arbitrary, which is about knowing the why. Can you think about a moment in your career, your professional career when you made a big mistake and maybe some of the the, the why behind you made the choice, the event that went bad and then what you learned from it? Well, we acquired a company. company that was in a space that was fundamentally different than ours. And I wanted it. So going into the deal, we didn't evaluate the why. I just wanted to do it. I thought it would be fun. What was it? And it was an industrial water filter manufacturing company. That doesn't seem like it has anything to do with what you do. And it doesn't. And I enjoyed the challenge of it. And really, it came from a position of arrogance. I just got off a series of wins. and I felt like I was on top of the world and it's like let's do something new. I'm bored with all this episode.

Let's do something new. And so I truly, you know, it was opportunistic. But a kind of deal came along. Somebody that I knew seemed like an interesting thing. I didn't really evaluate it well, but I was coming at it from almost I want to prove to myself and the people around that I could do things in this other space. Well, it turned out that literally. everything that I'm good at, right? So if I, and I think this is important, right? We are

strategic anchors. Like, what are the things that we're good at? Like, so for us, we're really good at digital marketing. We're good at paid customer acquisition. We're really good at digital products, at creating content editorial. We are, we have a built-in install base because we own a lot of different media properties in the B2B and at the time in the consumer space, just like you, like this is media, right? So we have all of these advantages. And I selected something that had none of those advantages. And the reasons had nothing to do with any except for my own personal ego. And so that was a good lesson.

And kind of what I, we did ultimately, you know, we were able to do enough to sell the company and to kind of, to be on, as I sit here right now, I can't tell you if we made a little bit of money, lost a little bit of money. I just wanted it to be over. But the big lesson there was had we gone through those progressions of knowing the why. okay, why are we doing this? You know, does, is there a business case for it? Does it play to our competitive advantages, right? Are we seating the high ground and going down and fighting the valley because we just want to prove that we can? That's a stupid reason to see the high ground. Or, you know, is there a really good business case for it? And there's been times where I've done things, you know, at the outset that seems stupid, that, which I give some examples of that as well,

that we did have really good reasons and they worked out because we went through the progressions. So I think that was just kind of a lesson. What is your appetite for risk? Very low, actually. Really? Yeah. That's surprising. Say more.

So I have never been about, you know, you're an athlete, right? I remember, I did karate when I was a kid. And I remember I did the first thing and a kid punched me. And I was like, this sucks. I don't ever want to do this again. I don't like pain. So I play baseball because, like, in general, like nobody was trying to hit you. I caught some bad hops at third base, but in general, it was relatively contactless. So I don't much care for pain. And I'll tell you, I value security. I like to be able to control my world for better or worse. And so for me, for somebody who values,

like security and just kind of knowing what I'm going to have every day, risk doesn't always align with that. Now, looking back, I have taken a lot of really significant risks, but to me, they were always calculated. So I was always really clear on what the downside was. And I would never take a risk that would, where the downside was like absolute catastrophic failure. And so I think When I say I don't like risk, it doesn't mean that I don't take risk. It means that when I do take risks, it's that I have factored in what I believe at least to be the possible downside. And I've accepted that as a reality. I think I forget, I had Morgan Howzel on.

He wrote the Psychology of Money and we talked about. Great book. Yeah, we talked about regularly putting yourself in situations to have very high upside but minimal downside. And that's a lot easier said than done. I sense your willingness to take risk has that type of equation to it of let's look for something that's potentially high upside with with that it's like you go to the casino and you say I'm taking in $200 to play blackjack and the second I walk in I'm completely fine to lose the $200 and if I do it doesn't matter it's fine it's the cost of my fund for the night and I'm

I'm cool with it. It's okay if I lose it. So it's a you know it's a it's a, It's a minimal downside. And yet, you could still have some upside there so that there's very measured risk. And you're not reaching back in the pocket for more if you lose that 230 minutes, right? You're out or you're going to go watch your friends or do something else. I sense that seems to be your style. It's absolutely my style. I'm not as good about not reaching back into my pocket, especially if I'm having a good time with my buddies.

And we're playing blackjack and it's good. But no, I mean, in general, yeah, you're right. And that is literally, it's like, okay, I've got this money. And over the years, you know, the money that I've been willing to risk or the, you know, the money has gone up, the time has gone down over the years. But for me, it really is about being more disciplined about not reaching back in because we've done this with business ideas. Right. I mean, it is so, so hard to, you know, the idea of like cut your losses sounds really easy. But when you're like, oh, but success could just be around that next corner over that next hill, that's where having partners helps because. I will be more, I'll take more risk with my money and with my time than I will with other people's. And so to have other partners there and be like, what do you think? And so like, I think it's too much like, all right, fine. You know, we're out. But, but the process that you described is exactly right for me. What do you look for when hiring a leader to work with you?

Qualities in the person. What are some things that? The must have qualities. Yeah, it depends a bit on the role. I'll tell you, at the outset, it's they've got to be not like me. Because what I have learned is that I am not a phenomenal leader of people. I can be a good spokesperson and I can be a good trumpeter. And I can say like, let's go. But what I believe leadership is, I equated way more to parenting. I got four kids.

And what that looks like is you're showing up every single day with that level of consistency that your team really needs. That to me is like the leading of people requires that, you know, requires that consistency. For me, when it comes to my children all day long, when it comes to business and I, it's fun. So I want to chase ideas and do this other stuff. Like that's the entrepreneurial thing that gets me excited. Early on, I hired people who are like me because I wanted to hang out with them.

Like, let's go build the stuff together. Well, turns out then we just went and chased even more shiny objects and left the people one, you know, basically, you know, parent lists. at home, like a bunch of latchkey toddlers running around expecting them to continue to grow the company in our absence and wondered why it didn't work out. So what I really look for in a leader is somebody who loves people and loves to develop people. That is the biggest thing. Give me somebody who just, they got a heart for people that, you know, whether you call it like certain leadership or that, it really is somebody who just, and you can see it, you can sense it.

You see it in great coaches. And it's the person who they love to see people grow, but they're also willing to have the difficult conversation. That one's hard to interview for. You can do it a little bit by asking the interview questions where you maybe kind of enter the danger zone, get into a little bit of conflict, call somebody on something,

and you see like, are they willing to engage? Because the flip side is you get people who love people so much that they won't have the difficult conversations. They won't make the tough call. because really at the end of the day, they just want to be liked. So that's the hardest thing is to find somebody who loves people, but they don't merely just want to be loved by those people.

Yeah. Okay. So, Ryan, I've done a bunch of research on all of yourself, and there's a wide variety we can go. So I'm going to go down a few alleyways and see what happens. Is that cool? Yeah. Okay.

So you've published a lot of work online. That's how I became aware of you because you were willing to share your ideas online. I think it's the best form of networking in the world, is to have the guts and the willingness and the intellectual wattage to share compelling ideas on the internet. We all should be doing it. If you're in a leadership position, regardless of where you work or what you do, I believe you should be doing this. So I want to talk about writing for a second because the fact that you've published your work, I think, has probably helped build your businesses. Can you share why for leaders documenting your thoughts first and foremost is important? And then

taking it a step further and being willing to share and publish for others to read and to judge. Why is that so important for a leader to do? It's the same reason that academics, to be respected as academic, you have to publish and get peer-reviewed. So it's amazing how many ideas I've had that made so much sense. And then first, when I try to write them down, I realize there's no singular coherent thought at all. It's like having a really cool dream and trying to explain it to like your partner. or buddy and they're like, you're like, never mind, I'm an idiot. You're like bail out, right? So I think it first, it forces you to crystallize your own ideas. And that's a really great

initial filter. There's also ideas that I've had where I thought they were great. They sounded really great. We had some testing when I put it out there. Some folks reached out and said, hey, you should know, we tried the same thing. It did not work at all. It's like, okay, let's talk about that. Is it circumstantial, you know, situational, you know, the things here. And so you're going to learn and grow so much through it, but it also is going to build your knowledge, but it also is what's going to kind of build your brand and your network. When you put something out there, people are going to engage with it good or bad, hopefully, right? Hopefully. And that's why you need to say stuff. And this is where I think it's important. It's hard for me. I struggle

with this a lot too, because I like to be liked. I don't like people to say like, no, you're wrong, you're stupid. But if you're just writing something that's already been said and nobody's really engaging with it, it can still be good for the reason that I said before, formulating your own ideas, beginning to put some stuff out there. But you got to know if you're going to put the information out there, you are exposing yourself to criticism. And I have actually a lot of respect for academics, for journalists. If you've ever known these folks, they put work out there. They will sometimes receive brutal feedback and criticism, and they'll take it just as a course of the job. They're like, yep, yep, okay, yep, great, thanks. They don't, they don't personalize it. And I think a lot of

leaders have an issue with this because they identify with their feelings and the things that they say. You know, journalists, they don't have the same, you know, identity with their work. They create it, they put it out there, they move on to the next one. And so I think we got to, I guess, be a little bit more zen with it going into it. Still is hard, though. It's still hard when you put something out there. Even if you learn, somebody says that sucks and you're wrong. Is there a time that you've connected with others that's led to business, whether you hired them or they've hired you. Is there an example you could think of that? The key introductory DM, I mean, that's how we got, we started talking was through Twitter, that because you're willing to publish or because that other person was willing to publish that you said, hey, we should work together.

We should do something together. Do you think of an example? Yeah, we just hired a head of marketing for, a startup that's in the it's recess.io shameless plug and it's in it's a an internal marketing communications platform and um so it's software it's SaaS and um I was like marketing software and marketing you know digital products physical products e-commerce consumer it's all the same but there's nuance right and so I was looking for people who were had good stuff to share out there on the subject and I was writing myself because I knew that if I was going to write it, the people

who also in the same area, they were going to engage. And so, yeah, the guy that we want of hiring was somebody I'd been communicating with for probably close to a year, you know, in this. And not that it has to take that long, but that was absolutely in the way that it worked out because we've been communicating. I'd DM them. I'd post something on Twitter about what we were doing. He had some good insights. So I DM them and I said, it seemed like you got some good insights. We should talk about this. So I love hiring. I love finding people to hire. that way. I'm not generally, I don't do, I'm not looking for work and I don't do really much in the way of consulting, but we definitely found joint venture relationships and, you know, have had,

you know, business dealings from a business development perspective that have come, that have come out of it. Yeah. I mean, I, I mean, I, I would imagine. I just think there's, I don't see much downside. I think this is another one of those, the, the floor is not, not really deep, but the upside is almost unlimited. I don't really see a ceiling. So when I see those types of activities, it seems like a complete missed opportunity, even if you're working at a Fortune 50 company

and you're a mid-level manager running a team, why not write on Medium or post on LinkedIn or work to share your ideas on Twitter? Because you never know the connections you can make and the partnerships and the people that you could work out. and it will make you better at your day job. And so I see very little downside for virtually any job for a person to share their work, their voice publicly.

Unless you're just a, you know, racist, sexist, Marxist, fascist kind of thing, you know, that is the only, the only downside really is if you're just a complete and utter, you know what, right? I mean, then the world's going to figure you out faster than they maybe would have. that's that whole. I hope those types aren't listening to this, but yes. I'm with you. Yeah. I mean, but even, you know, look, I've said some things that were unintentionally inappropriate before and people were like, hey, and I was like, oh my gosh, you're right. I'm so sorry. And so I think the only downside is your own personal ego. And the reason that I, that I hear

that people give, it's like, and you're just to either they're afraid of somebody not liking it and they're honest with that or they're afraid they're going to say something and it's going to cause this big ruckus. It won't. Like, you're just not that important. I've got a decent, decent platform. I've said things that have been completely stupid and wrong. And everybody forgets about those. You know, you're like, yeah, that was, that was wrong. I've had lots of wrong predictions, had lots of dumb things. And people just, they forget because they've got lives when they continue to move on with them. So I think, I think, I agree with you. There, there is no downside. I want to, okay, I want to talk about brand.

and branding. Okay. So in this one, let's, we're going to start, uh, getting personal and, and play the, play the role as is as if you and I are, we're backstage at one of your events and we have 90 minutes and I'm saying, Ryan, I, I love for you to help me out. And you, you being a generous person, like, sure, whatever you need. So from a, from a branding perspective of what I do, one of the things that I would say I sell are skills that people would say are soft skills. And when you do that it's hard to share like a tangible outcome on your website or in any type of you got i have testimonials that are great and they talk about how people have grown and got better for all the different things that i do and so this is maybe a two-parter but first i want to start with

branding and then how you brand and potentially even sell slash market soft skills not like i was working with a copywriter recently and she was she has these very tangible outcomes that she's gotten because of her copywriting skill. And I thought, wow, how would you help me write that? And that's a tougher conversation. So can we start with branding and then second part talk about working with someone who offers soft skills? Sure.

Everything goes back to levels of awareness. So whether it's hard skills versus soft skills or it could also be, because the solution, by the way, is the same if I'm selling something that is completely new that nobody's heard of. Right. The idea is what you're saying is there isn't this tangible outcome that people are already looking for. How do I how do I sell that? How do you make the intangible tangible? And so what you have to start with is say, okay, Eugene Schwartz and probably one of the best marketing books, advertising book that's ever been written breakthrough advertising. If you can find it on a used copy on Amazon and it probably costs you a couple hundred bucks. And it's worth it. And the most, obviously, I'll kind of give you the cliff notes of what I think is the most important chapter where he talks about the different awareness levels and how it impacts. So the first awareness level is you've got somebody that is completely unaware. So they know nothing about you, your business, your product, the problem you solve the solution, nothing.

They are the unwashed masses. Now, marketing to those, good luck, right? As you kind of dip down below that, you have people who are more kind of generally problem aware. So these are folks that they know they've got a problem, but they're not yet aware of any solutions to even solve this problem. So they don't even know the solutions that are available to them to solve this problem. Then you have solution, and they're also that can be challenging, right? Then you have solution aware. Solution aware of people who, they know that there is a solution to this problem.

Like they know that a category of solutions exist, but they're not yet aware of your particular brand, your particular product. And then there's product aware of some people who know about your product. You know, they haven't yet bought from you necessarily. They need a good reason to buy now. That's where, you know, somebody who's doing a Google search type in your brand name, they're looking for you. And then there's most aware. These are your super fans.

People who are just like, give me something new. I'll buy whatever you got. These are the, you know, Apple fans lining up, camping out overnight to get the new iPhone. So I think you've got to be clear on who am I targeting in there. Now, the unaware market, the people who don't even know that they have a, problem. I said it before. Good luck. I would not start there. That is so, the only way to really reach them is through shock and awe, through entertainment. Some buddies of mine, they own a company called Harmon Brothers. And they produced a lot of these like really fun videos. Like if you saw the

squatty potty commercial, like people didn't know they need a little stool in the toilet to help them poop better, right? Like nobody knew about this product in this category. Right. So how do you attract the unaware? You think about like the snuggy? Remember the snuggy? Nobody knew they needed a blanket with arms. Like, our blanket's just too hard, right? This is not a real problem that anybody has. But you have these ridiculous, you know, commercials, and it makes people laugh and they go, maybe I won't buy that.

That's kind of how you get unaware. It's difficult. You got to be entertaining. It's very expensive. I don't recommend it. Where I would go, based on what you're saying, it's the problem where. So while the outcome of what yours delivers doesn't necessarily,

if it's solution or somebody's like, I'm looking for leadership training, you know, for my people. So they're typing that in. Now it's just why is your leadership training better than somebody else's, right? And that could be pricing, that could be offering, that can be the mechanism. Everybody else is doing videos and you're, you know, doing live. There's all kind of things to differentiate from a solution-aware perspective. The big opportunity is targeting those people who are problem where. And the reality is you don't actually have to have a specific solution. All you have to do is acknowledge that their problem is real.

You have to make them feel heard. And so it's less about promising a very specific deliverable or outcome. And it's less and it's more about saying, okay, here's where you are. And I know you, I hear you. And if you can speak with the same language in the same terms, hey, if you've ever said this, then we've got the solution. If you can use those words and get their attention, then they'll start to say, okay, what do you do?

And now you get into the solution aware, why you're different. And it doesn't matter as much about promising that specific deliverable. Because the reality is somebody who's merely problem aware, but they're not aware of the solution. They're not going to believe in the perfect result anyway. Because keep in mind, these people who are problem aware, what they want is hope. More than anything, they want hope. You're aware that you have a problem,

but you don't even know that a solution exists for this problem. You just want hope. And if somebody comes with like, hey, you got this issue here and this one and this one. Yeah, cool. We got a solution.

So focusing on people who are problem aware, they're aware of the problem, but that's where it stops. That's where it ends and they're kind of puzzled at that point. Yeah. I mean, let me give you an example because we're dealing with this right now. So we launched a new company, the scalable company.

And it's a bit soft. Like, what's it about? We're going to help companies. We're going to help bootstrapped entrepreneurs scale. Helping entrepreneurs scale themselves so they can scale their companies. Well, freaking great. Everybody says that. Right.

And so we're trying to think about, like, how do you do? Like, what's the specific promise? Well, you're going to double your sales. Everybody says that. You're going to 10x. I'm going to go, okay, great. Everybody's, you know, there's whole brands around that. And so realizing, like, I don't know how to promise a specific result.

for these people. I really don't. Um, so we went to what I said before. We began unpacking. How, how can I just bullseye in a right, write their problem like for our ideal market? And, uh, and the best way we talked about it before and test this is with Twitter, you know, tweet something out. And so I tweeted out, um, why is it that as my business makes more money, I personally make less money. I remember that tweet. Yeah. That was, That one kind of won a little viral. Yeah. Yeah, because I spoke directly into the problem people had. And it was, and it was using. And that's a case for you. That's a case for you. Yep. Why? Well, I mean, it's, it's, it's not the case for me now. I really was testing headlines if I'm being

completely transparent with you. Okay. So, so that's not happening for you now. But it was, it was you at one point. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. When I was living that life of the accidental entrepreneur, like not knowing what I was doing. Your, your top line revenue was was, was dramatically going up, but yet you were taking home less than when you were smaller. Scale is expensive, you know. And so that was kind of the thing. Like how do we, so I spoke into the problem. I didn't even actually offer a solution,

but I was like scale is expensive. And I sort of left it there. But now people were looking. It's like, oh my gosh, yes. Yes, you spoke. So when selling the intangible, when selling the soft, the best thing that you can do is to speak directly into someone's reality when they're in that moment of pain,

you'll never be able to sell something that is soft and intangible to somebody who is not experiencing pain. So let me, let me workshop real quick with you, Ryan. So one of the things that happened, I just said this off the cuff without even thinking, I was speaking with a president of a company. And this person is really bright, really good,

but said they had a kind of a leadership deficiency, which is very common. and they said, this is just such a project and an ordeal to figure out our leadership development. And I said, well, why don't you outsource your leadership development to me? And they said, yeah, that's exactly what I'd love to do. They're a long-time listener. They loved all this stuff, everything I've kind of picked up and shared over the last five years. And I thought, well, outsource leadership development.

It is like the person who understands their problem is this is just such a pain to build this up inside. Wait a second. I have a guy who I already like. I could just ask him to do it. And also it's very short. It's quick. And it's very clear, as you've also written about in one of your marketing commandments, which we're going to get to. It's very clear when it comes to, oh, this is a person I can outsource a very important thing that I can't really build it here right now. Let's just bring in someone that I really like to do it. And that and that is a way I almost stumbled into one of those very clear and kind of clever, not really, though, lines to help another person. And it's turned into a really great partnership now.

Yeah. I mean, you spoke into the pain, right? Now, what you did is you offered, you acknowledged the pain and then offered the solution. Right. So, so it's like, you know, it's just, why is it so hard developing young leaders? Because it is. And that's why we do outsource leadership development, so you don't have to. Right. Let us, Let us help you get your leaders up to speed so that you can then take them to the next level, right? I mean, or whatever it looks like. But just acknowledging that pain, that reality, we had, we had software. We wound up exiting the company.

But it was all, you know, around duplicating yourself, right? Because I'd heard so many, you know, entrepreneurs say, I wish I could duplicate myself, which it's like, you know, ever wish you could duplicate yourself? Yeah. You know, now it's like, cool, what you got? Magic beans, secret cookie, software. The solution becomes irrelevant if the problem is big enough and if you speak well enough into it. And so because then what you're doing is you're offering them a solution to this thing that's there.

And they're going to manufacture in their own mind, which is far more powerful what that afterstate is. So we teach all the time. Your job, I don't care what you're selling. Your product, your service, it is a vehicle. It is a vehicle that transports people from less desirable before states to more desirable afterstates. That's it. That's what all of us are in the business of transformation and transportation. We transport people. We transform them from a less desirable before state to a more desirable after. The essence of marketing, branding, positioning, copywriting, whatever you want to say it,

it's figuring out. And the only way to do this, by the way, is they have focus groups or anything like that, right? This isn't research. This is actually talking, ideally face to face, but these times zoom to Zoom to your customers, lots of them, 30 of them, minimum. It's the only way you're going to start to see trends and picking up on the words that they say. You've had enough conversations with enough of these folks that you've heard the words. And then it's simply about copywriting is about acknowledging the before state, using the words that they use, and then making a promise to the after. Transportation to transformation. That's good.

That's the business we're in. what about for a bit and I'm sure you worked with a lot of these a business that's built off of one person's personality and there's only so much scale i mean you can raise your prices for your keynotes and your mastermind groups and your online courses you can you can do those things but when you worked with someone who's built a business off of their own maybe even if they didn't mean to but they built it off of their own personality and now they're struggling obviously i'm projecting this entire question they're struggling to um scale it beyond themselves even though it's a healthy, great, enjoyable business. But if you're thinking about growth beyond the person, what are some of, and I know you've probably personally had to do this, but what are some of the ways or some of the ideas you would share with someone who was dealing with that right now? Yeah, I did have digitalmarketer.com. The whole teaching of marketing started off as a side project.

I did it like you, like we talked about before, putting knowledge out. get knowledge back to learn. I would occasionally produce a course or a training, literally, so I could raise capital to put it into other business ventures. The teaching of marketing was the side hustle thing that I was doing for a long time before it was ever a company. In fact, the event that you referenced earlier, Traffic and Conversion Summit, which we also sold back in 2018, still own a large stake of it and still handle all the content side of it. That event started before Digitalmarketer.com, the company that ultimately went on to produce the event was even a thing. We just decided, let's do an event for some, you know, for some friends.

That's a lot of context, but they're going to say, like, I woke up one day and realized that I was the product. And I did not want to be the product. I am an introvert by nature. If I had it to do all over again, I would have done everything I've done under a pseudonym. I don't like strangers freak me out. They want to stab me and sell me drugs. I remember, you know, dare in fourth grade and all this stuff. Like, I don't, I don't like to get out much.

And so when I realized I was the product, like, this is, this is not good at all. I'm going to either burn the whole thing down or I got to figure out how to not be the product. I remember hearing this like Chris Rock bit. I won't do the whole thing because I can't, but also it's a family show. But you talk about the difference between being rich and being wealthy. Have you heard this bit? And he talks about, I've probably, but I don't know. I'm not sure I know the ending.

Go for it. Yeah, so he says rich, and this will date it, but he's like, Shaquillo O'Neal is rich. This one when Shaq was still in the league, he's like, Shaquillo Neil is rich. He's like, the dude sitting up in the owner's box paying Shaq's salary is wealthy. And so what I realized is I've got to get off of the floor, off of the field. I've got to get into the owner's box. How do I do that? How do I do that?

I've got to stop being the racehorse. I don't even want to meet a jockey. How do I do that? And so what I realized is that I needed product ties myself. And so if what we're selling is some type of knowledge or service, I thought about, okay, when I do and I talk, like, what is my process that I go through? And if I weren't doing it, how would I? And so the first thing that you have to do is you have to build a, you have to build an asset that is what everybody does in the space is they write a book. The problem is nobody has ever actually read a book.

We buy books. We put books in our bookshelf. The vast majority... You're your shelf behind you. You don't read those books? So I will tell you, I read books. I think it's my secret to success is I actually read the books that I buy. Not all of them, but the vast majority of them.

And I don't just read them once, I reread them. Like, I read like crazy, but the majority of the people I know out there don't read books. And so if you think about the ideas that actually travel, right? Most people have never read the Bible, but they know the Ten Commandments. So at least a few of them, right? So you've got to have your version of the Ten Commandments, right? What is kind of that artifact for you that distills your knowledge, ideally into a single sheet of paper that can be handed off?

So for me, at Digital Marketer, it was the customer value journey. Right. So we created this eight stage customer value journey that was kind of the start of everything that we did. And now kind of my general essence, I could pull from me and I could imbue it. into this artifact. Then what's what you got to do, and this was easy for me because I didn't want the attention. It's hard for a lot of thought leaders experts because they're being honest, what they really want more than money is fame. I am just in this for the money. I don't want the

fame. But there's lots of people I know who they like that fame side. But because what you then have to do is anytime the spotlight gets shined on you, you have to become a mirror and redirect it back onto your artifact. And so you start saying things like, you know, Yeah, with the customer value journey, we do this, you start saying we instead of I. So now it's we, the company. So it's the company plus this artifact that makes the whole thing work. And then you can begin to kind of swap in other people. But again, it's not about their ideas anymore.

It's these people teaching about this artifact that makes it work. And so that's the only way that I've found to do it. You've got to take what you do, your essence, your genius. You've got to productize it. you got to give it a name. It needs to be its own separate standalone intellectual property. And then you have to stop talking about everything as though it's your idea. And the genius needs to be trapped within this artifact. And you're simply a spokesperson for it. You're Moses coming down with stone tablets. This artifact, though, that you created, can you repeat the name of it for me?

Yeah, it's the customer value journey. Okay. So the customer value journey worksheet, that thing has to be incredible. Like what was the process to get that create? Because a lot of people can create a one-page artifact. That doesn't mean it's going to be any good. So what was the process to creating an excellent one-page artifact that you are proud and want to point to on a regular basis and say we and say this is the thing, not Ryan Dice, it's this thing.

What was that? I want to get inside the making. I love listening. There's this new podcast called Song. It's not new. but it's new to me called Song Exploder, where they talk about the making of a song. And they get the artist describing like the tiniest of details

and the time it took, like, Jewel, it took her nine years to get, you were meant for me to be like this incredible song. Like nine years. That's insane, but she describes it in detail. So I'm curious about going inside the process of you, creating your artifact and how you were able to do it to the point to where you were proud of pointing to it. And others saw it and said,

oh yeah, I got to follow that. That's the thing that's going to help me. Yeah, so I would lower the standards a bit. I think it's, I think mine is very, very good. And obviously, lots of people like it. But I want to make sure that people don't think that it has to be like this world class hit song to still work. Because I believe that when people, if you do a search for, you know, customer value journey worksheet, you find our PDF. I bet many folks are going to be incredibly unimpressed, which should actually give you confidence. That said, the way that it came about is we were doing it. And so we were, we were, when we were building out, you know, marketing campaigns and funnels is like, okay, what was that, what was that first

step that we did? And we're working as a consultant. You and your team were working as consultants to help businesses from a marketing perspective. Is that where, is that the stage you're in as a business? We were doing it for our own businesses. So I've always operated different businesses because have a bit of entrepreneurial ADHD. So I was essentially a consultant for my own companies, but it's the same thing. That you owned, you bought these or started these companies? Correct. Okay, okay.

So, but I was also teaching at the same thing. I love when we started this conversation because it's such a great reference point back, right? I was writing and talking about this stuff. And so people would ask me questions and I would help. And so I was doing, I was doing consulting, but generally for free. I've never really done consulting as a, as a service. arguably I should have at some point, but I still could. I mean, yeah.

But the place where we always started, you know, if we began with, you know, okay, let's figure how we're going to drive traffic, you know, or let's start writing the page. Like, it never really worked. So, you know, our process was, okay, step one, we've got to document, how does the customer even happen? And for me, the inspiration, so I'll pull inspiration from sources that have nothing to do with the business that we're in but still work. So for me, I read this book called The Goal by Eliahu Goldrat.

And it's a book on manufacturing. So a lot of your listeners, if they're, you know, directors, VPs, they went to business school. They probably read the goal. And the goal is a book on just manufacturing efficiency written, I think, back in the 1980s. And the whole idea is you've got this assembly line. And what you've got to do is it's not about making each work. as efficient as it possibly can be. It's about identifying, you know, the one work center that's the least efficient, your bottleneck, weakest link in the chain, all that, fixing it, and then having it

go around. So I had that. Like, that was just from reading, like, that was knowledge that was just there. And I realized we were following this same flow with marketing. So we'd always say, like, what's our assembly line? Like, what's the big picture? Right. But from a process perspective, we were doing this. We had to take a step back and have an out-of-body experience and say, what are we doing here? And it helps if you just think, like, there's stuff that you're doing just naturally, innately, that's your talent, right? And you kind of have to step away and say, what am I doing and why am I doing it? Also, having juniors on your team and encouraging them, please ask stupid questions, like, why are you doing this? Because it's not a stupid question.

I got to learn. And I've got the curse of knowledge. I'm too dang close to it. So we came back to this idea of step one is always to document the customer journey. And then, from that, once we had done that, it would now inform what were the actions and activities that we were going to take. But that was kind of that overarching document that everything else began. Prior to that, you know, I had drawn stuff out on, you know, napkins like sales funnels. You know, so this idea of documenting, you know, the flow worked. We just kind of came up with our own unique spin on it and applied it in a unique way. But I think this is important. A lot of people say, I want to write a book or I want to start teaching.

stuff. It's like, you haven't done it yet. You need to get out there and do it. Like, step one is be really, really good at the thing that you do, have produced results for others. I see so many of these, you know, kids who want to be thought leaders right out of the gate, it's like, but you don't know anything yet. Right? I don't want to discourage you, but like, have you done it for you? Have you done it for somebody else? Have you done anything before you go out and before you go out and teach it. So for me, it was like years and years and years of doing it and getting results, good and bad, learning. And then trying to step outside of that process and say like, okay, if I wasn't here to do it, what tools, what I want somebody else to have so they can achieve

similar results? And those tools wind up being those external assets. You mentioned earlier about traffic and conversion summit. And I remember this may have started a few years ago were friends of mine that I had met through I went to mastermind talks run by Jason Gaynard and other things we probably run in similar circles with some of the people that are in both and they said are you going to to TNC and I was like what's TNC and I'm emailing and writing back and I'm hearing about traffic and conversion summit and this is a massive summit you I didn't realize that you'd sold it so can you share a little bit about the value of bringing people together and why it's worth your because I throw a small event every year like a workshop um and the work that

goes into that not just me but a but a lot of others who help me out is insane i mean like because you're worrying about every tiny detail because you want the experience from the second they get off the airplane to checking into their rooms to the to the they walk into the room i mean all that i think about i know i know you do too what what is it what's the benefit of of throwing a big event and bringing people together and what are some of the highlights that you can think of from from traffic and conversion summit well i think anytime you can create the place um finally uh the world at large is beginning to see the value in in our communities especially now that we can create them relatively relatively easily um i see this operating at at multiple levels so you have brands and that's just

it's an entity that's known right there there's an idea around good or bad. I kind of see the next level being media. So media is where you actually can control attention. So what you produce is definitely media. We're going to make this and people, you know, you know, you know when you release it, a known group at a known time, they're going to hear this, right? And you've gathered that attention, right? You've gathered that attention, albeit somewhat asynchronously, but in general, you know about who's there, who's going to be there. But kind of that next step is really we've created the community. We've created the place.

This is the gathering spot where it has, now it has got enough mass that it is drawing other objects to it. And that is a little bit, that's when, when media becomes community, right? When media becomes the place, it's when it gets so big that it has its own gravitational pull. Other objects, you mean like sponsors or what do you talk? talking about. Every everything. Like so now everybody wants to be there because everybody's already there. Yeah. Right. So yeah. So how long have you done it? So so 2019 was the 10th traffic and conversion summit. Okay. And the first three years were brutal. We lost tons of money, a couple hundred people there. You know, had, you know, had some had some breakthrough. The reason we did it by the way is because we looked around and said, look at all these people doing these events, but they all suck. It's a pitch fest. It's not very good. Let's do our own. you know, surely we can make a lot of money, not true. The only reason that we did the second TNC is when I realized how much money we had lost on that event going into the third day,

I knew the only way that we were going to cover our costs was to sell tickets to next year's event, which some might call that a Ponzi scheme if you're not careful. But we did put on the event. It wasn't an actual Ponzi scheme. But truly, the only reason we did it in the second year is because I had to sell something at that event to pay for, you know, There had to be a moment when people said, all right, we're going to, we want to come. Because now what? Did I read 10,000 people? Is that right?

Well, yeah. I mean, that's how many we were expecting to have this year. Right. Well, in 2020. Or 2020. Yeah. Obviously 2020 was a different year. Which is why I'm, you know, I knew, I had a feeling we've been doing this event for, you know, at the time like nine years.

And I was like, we just had too good of a run where nothing's gone wrong. we should maybe look at kind of hedging our bets and bring it in a larger financial partner. Very glad that we did that. But yeah, we were expecting, we were expecting 10,000 in 2020. Obviously, COVID made that not possible. We wound up doing a, you know, a virtual event. That was great because it wasn't just like a Zoom thing. It was like a full-blown studio. Had Arnold Schwarzenegger, you know, coming in, you know, zooming in and all that other stuff. So it was great. I look forward to getting back to, though, there's something powerful about the place. But in terms of like, what's the benefit?

you know, kind of some of the benefits and why you want to do it apart from just the direct economic incentives, you kind of become that keymaker, that connector. You're the person who, you're the host of the party. And so we, I've been able to meet lots of really cool people, have lots of good business deals come out of it by, you know, you ask somebody, hey, do you want to speak at this event? We're going to have 10,000 people. Yeah. what do you do? So from a business development, from a brand building perspective, but it is also a platform that we've been able to launch other ventures from.

And so, you know, the scalable company, recess, like a lot of our new ventures get launched at, you know, at that event. And so events are, I think they're the most powerful thing that you can create. Because when you own media and when you own the place, then you're the goose that lays golden eggs. And the wild thing to me is the market values the eggs. Investors, strategics, they want to buy products. They want to buy software companies.

They want to buy all this other stuff. And I get it. It's simple. But our model has always been build media first. Build media first. Gather the audience, create the community. Then you can spin off the brands. And so, you know, I've sold a lot of product companies.

sold a lot of software companies generally don't sell the media companies. And even we sold traffic and conversion summit, and we made sure to maintain control over the platform and access to the platform. So you're still running it for 2021, this one coming up? Yeah, we're running it. I mean, you're planning to do it in person? I'm sorry? You plan to do it in person? Yeah, we, it's going to be in September of 2021. So the hope by then is that things will be, you know, open again. As the hope, obviously things can change. If they do, we'll adapt, just like we do. But, but yeah, we are contractually obligated.

It was funny when we sold it. They wanted us to do it. We wanted to do it. So we're aligned, but everybody's kind of him and haunt around it. And the company, by the way, that bought it from us, they're the second largest event management company in the world. They're owned by Blackstone. And they've been great, great financial partners. I really like the people.

And we're a couple years into this now. So we're beyond the, you know, kind of the honeymoon stage. and have gone through, you know, a lot together. They really have been great. But we are obligated through, I think, at least 2023 to do all the programming, you know, for the event, the marketing for the event, things like that. Our hope and currently their hope is that we'll continue to do it long after. Yeah. Do you have enough time to or have a few minutes to go over a couple of your modern marketing commandments that you've, I obviously found one of your threads on Twitter?

Do you have time to go through a few? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, so I'm going to bounce around. Let's start from the end. Thou shalt tell stories, tell stories of transformation, stories of identity, stories of triumph over a common enemy. Ryan, talk to me about why leaders need to become excellent storytellers. Story is the language of persuasion among human beings, right? I mean, that's what we have.

That's what I think makes our species unique, and it's always been there. You can tell somebody facts and they won't remember it. You can tell somebody a story and it just gets absolutely embedded. And I think the most powerful story that you can tell is a story about the person. And so that's what we were kind of getting to before, right? About the person you're talking to, not about yourself. So what about your own personal story? How important is that versus telling the story?

I mean, I just had Don Miller out and your story brand, and that's all about you're the guide for the person. So I think it seems like there's some alignment here. Is that what you mean? Like focus more on the story for them and not your own story or both? Well, look, I think there's times when it's appropriate to tell your story. But it's not necessarily where I would start. My preference would be to have other people tell stories about me to my audience.

than me tell my own story about me. And yeah, Donald Miller, by the way, in Storybrand, he's a dear friend of mine. And I actually, when I talked about kind of that before and after concept, I actually did a chapter in his story brand book where I taught that. So if you want more on kind of that before and after, it's in Don's book. So give him more money.

But I think telling people's stories, I think the second that you start talking about yourself, a lot of people are going to turn themselves off. I think there's been times where, I've told where I've taken my own story pivoted into the third person when talking to my own people because I knew that they would believe it more. You know, because now it's not just like me. It's like, you know, I heard about this guy one time that did this.

It's about what are they going to be most receptive to? Now, if people are coming to you and, you know, you're the guru at the top of the mountain, they've come there, then by all means you can tell your story, but tell it from a place of humility and from I was like you and now I'm here. but I think far better than telling somebody a story, it's to get somebody to change the story they tell about themselves. If you think about your people are telling themselves, a story they have an internal narrative that's running,

if you tell them a story, you'll inspire them maybe. You know, you'll capture their attention for a moment. If you can change the story that they tell about themselves and you're the one that did it, that's when you'll really capture their heart. Very useful. for the person who is that Fortune 50 mid-level manager, Ryan, who is like, I'm not going to run events or I'm not going to, I'm not, I'm not an entrepreneur.

I like what I'm doing. I have a good team. Some of the things we're talking about, I do want to steer it towards them for a moment here because there's a wide variety of people. And I am, I am cognizant of trying to help them as well. Your life and your business are a little bit different from that avatar, but it's still really important to me. What, when it comes to storytelling or writing or being the place or the community, what would you, what advice do you give to that person in that role who has no intention of leaving

it or even wants to have a side hustle or wants to start a business, but they want to keep progressing within that type of career? Well, all this stuff is fractal, right? So it exists within family units. It exists within kind of, you know, broader business communities. It exists within, you know, large Fortune 50 companies from the top. And then you within your own team. Because the only difference between, you know, so my company at one point, because we've always been kind of a company of companies, we were at a couple hundred, a couple hundred employees. And then really, I kind of like to sell them at that point. That's when these Fortune 50 people who really know how to run and scale businesses and people and teams, that's when they need to take over.

But all it is is it's kind of like a collection of teams. It's a company of companies. Same way that militaries are structured. And so same way with sports teams. Yeah, you're all in the same team, but like the defense is going to have team. And then the defensive line is going to have its own team. And within that, they need to have their own stories and their own culture and their own narrative. it can't be divergent from the thing at the top, but very often you're going to be in a company that is devoid of some of this stuff. Like it's not going to be trickling down from the top. That's unfortunate, but it doesn't mean that you can't create your brand of it right there where you are.

And if you do that, what you're going to find is some of it may percolate up, which means you may percolate up with it from a career perspective. You may also find that, gosh, this would be a lot easier to do within the, you know, constraints of a company. that actually did have culture and narrative that I believed in. And so maybe it's a, it's a reason that you make a career move. All right. Let me hit another one. Marketing shouldn't stop at the order, just like date nights shouldn't stop after you get married. Explain more. Most market in a lot of companies, certainly legacy companies, marketing is seen as they generate the leads, sales clothes, the leads, you know, success, customer support, you know, whatever,

are going to kind of clean up the mess after it's been made. I take the perspective that marketing should own the entirety of the customer journey. Right. And so sales is a subset of revenue, but really it is marketing's job to own how do we generate initial awareness? How do we do that engagement? How do we create the ideal sales conversations? And then once it's had, how do we make sure that people engage and that, you know,

after they've bought that they actually consume and get value from, I think marketing needs to own that because marketing made the promise on the front end. And then marketing needs to own it all the way through in terms of generating customer stories and success stories and referrals and those kind of things. So I just think it's relational. And the marketers who take a relational approach of, yeah, we're going to look to develop this relationship of the marketers that win today. The marketers that are kind of your pickup artist, yeah, I'm going to go and see how many numbers I can get tonight at the club are kind of the douchebags that aren't going to be around for very long.

One more. Thou shalt write offers not slogans. Slogans might win awards, but they don't make sales. Great marketing inspires action. It does not merely inform or entertain. Explain more about that. Yeah, I mean, if you're in marketing, you are a function of revenue. you are not a function of creative. And a lot of marketers don't like to hear that. But, you know, I believe that as a marketer, you should be out there creating offers that generate revenue. And if you want to always have a job, whether it's at your own company or somebody else's, try to get as close to revenue as possible. If you're going to write slogans and doing this other stuff, then work at a creative agency. And you will be hired as long as the C-level folks see your method.

as affirming their own ego. My dad told me that early in my career when I had no idea what I was going to do when I got done playing football. He's like, get as close as possible to the people who bring the money. And so maybe you go directly into being a sales rep. If you're someone who's known to be able to bring revenue to the company, they will never let you go. When they have layoffs, they won't lay you off.

If you bring in way more than they're paying you, trust me, you're extremely valid. And I think, I believe, you know, we're all in sales regardless of our title or if we hold a bag or if we have a quote or whatever may be, everything is about selling yourself, selling ideas or actually selling a product. We're all in sales. Dan Pink wrote a great book about that, right? To sell as human. I firmly believe in that as well. But if you're unsure and you're maybe younger earlier and you're not sure to do, I think a great first job is to go get a sales job. anywhere. Completely agree. Preferably at a place where you actually like the product or you like what you're selling. I think that's, I mean, I was fortunate to do that. That's one piece of advice I tell if they're uncertain. Although I find kids seem to know what they want to do more now than when I was coming out of college. So good for them. But if they don't, that's what I tell them. I want to end with asking you that question, Ryan, when you see a young, maybe new graduate of college and they say, hey, I want to make a positive contribution on the world.

I want to do good. I want to help people, right? I want to be fulfilled in my career, in my life. What's a few general pieces or one pieces of life advice that you would give to them? So the advice that I give them is not what I'm thinking in my head. What I'm thinking in my head is that's adorable. You have actually no idea what you want. But I've learned I can't say that.

Why can't you say that? because I'm not speaking to their current reality. Same thing I said before, right? I've got to acknowledge where they are and I've got to be empathetic and get down to the hole with them. And frankly, I was that, you know, idiot kid too. So it's fair, right? Yeah, it's fair.

But no, what I said to him is I said, that's great. And you should do that. Just know, making a difference, putting food on the table, none of these things are mutually exclusive. And so I would encourage you to, if somebody comes to me and say, I want to make a difference. Like, great, you should volunteer while you also work. You know, you, somebody said, I want to start, I want to start my own business. Okay, what do you want to do? I'm not really sure. Great. You should go get a job while you think about what you want

to do and perhaps volunteer on the weekends. What I, what I remind people of is, you know, there's 24 hours in a day, assuming you sleep for eight of them and you work for eight, of them, that still leaves, you know, last I checked, about another eight hours, you know, that's a long time. I mean, I can fly from Austin, Texas, to London in about eight hours. Eight hours is a long time. And that's every single day. I mean, you get that eight hour chunk. Now, I get it. You're going to want to hang out friends and do other stuff. You don't have the full eight hours. But, you know, there's also no law that you got to sleep eight. Maybe you sleep seven, six. I mean, I'm not saying go without sleep. Sleep is critical. But,

we have so much time. And that's the thing that I want younger folks to know. You have so much time in your day. If you would only use it effectively, you know, get off freaking PlayStation, you know, TV and all this stuff, right? Go go do some stuff. You say you want to do it and go do it. No one's stopping you. No one's holding you back. Just go and do it. But do all of it. Do both of it. Don't feel like you have to absolutely pick right now. try a lot of it, hedge your bets, the stuff you like, double down on it, the stuff that you don't. Stop doing it. And above all, else, look for old, rich, happy people. Because if you see somebody who's old, rich, and happy, ask them what they did.

There's a lot of old rich, you know, bitter people. And there's a lot of, like, you know, old, poor people. But if you find somebody who's all rich and happy, they're worth snuggling up to and asking them, you know, what they did. You could do worse than to model them. Most definitely. And one of the commonalities I found Ryan after speaking with 400 plus people on this show over six years for sustaining excellence is having a bias for action. Doesn't mean they do it right all the time. In fact, they probably make far more mistakes than most. But that's because they're getting more at bats than everybody else. They're showing up more than everybody else. They're willing to take action. They're constantly pushing their edges of their zone of competency and comfort so that, they are going to hit sometimes. They're going to hit every once in a while.

And that is what leads them to hopefully being old, rich, and happy. It's because they're willing and have a bias to take action instead of just having a bunch of ideas and never doing anything. And I think that's something I've found and I try to do myself is like, let's just create as many at bats as possible because sometimes I'm going to get a hit. Maybe I'll hit a homer a few times too. So let's keep at it. And I think that's advice I would give to anybody, regardless of age, is to have a, bias for action. Yep.

Thanks, man, for being here. I really appreciate it. Any place or where would you send people to find more about you online? Yeah, follow me on Twitter. You know, and it's just Ryan Dice, R-Y-A-A-N-D-E-I-S-S. It's German when two vowels go walking, the second one does the talking. And if you're into marketing stuff, digitalmarketer.com, if you're an entrepreneur or thinking about being one in the, you know, kind of in that messy,

middle of scale scalable.co not dot com.co. Love it. Thanks again for being here, man. I really appreciate it. And I absolutely want to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. Yeah, likewise. Thanks for having me. Awesome. Thanks, man. Just so you know, as we got done recording, Ryan said to me, hey, man, let's get time on the calendar so we can work one-on-one so I could help you with scaling your business, just as friends. Have a good conversation and work on it. I'd love to help out and that just shows the type of guy he is we weren't recording he wasn't getting any positive publicity for it he's just doing it to help and it shows his character and the type of person he is so i am going to

take him up on that offer and have a call with him this week in fact to talk with him about building and growing my business he has some cool ideas and i want to run some things by him so a few of my notes that i've uh i'm reviewing here um there is a big benefit and being a a connector and all of us should think about ways we could create a place or become the place where others want to go and you to be the person who actively thinks about how can I connect others to benefit both of them creating mutually beneficial relationships among friends and colleagues and people you know is a great skill to develop and something to always be thinking about. And then when he said, we are transportation to transformation. And that is what we all

should be selling. And remember, all of us, regardless of your profession, work in sales. If you haven't read Dan Pink's book to sell as human or listen to the episodes when Dan has been on a few times, we all work in sales regardless of your title. And then writing, I will continue to talk about this because of how important it is and how much. it's impacted me as well as so many other leaders I've spoken with. Writing forces you to crystallize ideas. Every person listening to this podcast should create some sort of a writing habit in order to get the ideas out of your mind onto the page.

I love it if you publish them, but even if you don't, you still should regularly be writing on a consistent basis. To you, the loyal listener of the Learning Leader Show. I want to say thank you so much for spreading the word, telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show. His guest, Ryan Dice, shared some very useful ideas to help you become a more effective leader. And because you continue to write reviews on Apple Podcasts and rate the show, hopefully five stars, you are spreading the message and you are creating the opportunity for me to do what I love on a daily basis.

And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so much. Talk to this soon. Can't wait.