The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 408: Jeff Immelt - How To Follow A Legend & Lead Through A Crisis (Former CEO of GE)

Episode Date: March 1, 2021

Text LEARNERS to 44222 for more... Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12 https://twitter.com/RyanHawk12 Jeff Immelt served as CEO of GE for 16 years. He has been named one of the "World's Best CEOs" three times by Barron's. During his tenure as CEO, GE was named "America's Most Admired Company" by Fortune magazine and one of "The World's Most Respected Companies" in polls by Barron's and the Financial Times.  Notes: Raised in Cincinnati, OH by his father Joe and mother Donna. Both of his parents grew up in the depression. Growing up Jeff said, "I remember when my dad had a great boss, he was motivated, and when he had a lousy boss, he was neither challenged nor happy. The worst kind of boss he always used to say, was one who criticized all day long but never offered solutions." GE was founded on April 15, 1892, by one of the greatest inventors in history, Thomas Edison. For most of the 20th century, GE had more patents than any other corporation. Jack Welch, deemphasized technology and innovation, and instead focused on management techniques like six sigma. Six Sigma is a data-driven methodology invented by a Motorola engineer named Bill Smith in 1980. It trains managers to be experts (called Black Belts) in improving business processes to reduce product defects. Jeff's first day as CEO of GE was September 10, 2001. On his first day, he introduced himself, via simulcast, to GE's 300,000 employees. His second day as CEO was 9/11/2001. "Good leaders absorb fear. They give people a plan. You have to hold two thoughts at the same time." By the end of his first week as CEO, GE's shares had dropped 20%, decreasing the company's market capitalization by $80 billion. Leaders learn everyday — "I've always believed an important determinant of success could be found in how one answered 3 questions: How fast can you learn? How much can you take? What will you give to those around to you?" The trifecta: "In your career, you meet only a handful of leaders who have the trifecta of being able to innovate, execute, and develop talent. Omar Ishrak had that." Jeff was the ultimate grinder, a true believer of GE, he got the "meatball" (the GE logo) tattooed on the left hip. The GE story is extremely personal for Jeff.  Why the "Success Theater" story about Jeff is wrong. "For seven years, 10 times per year, I had a leader from GE flown to my house with their spouse. We'd serve them dinner and then I'd spend 6+ hours with the leader asking them questions, learning about them, and saying, 'Tell me something I don't know.'" What Jeff learned from playing football in college at Dartmouth: "When the best player is not caring about the team, nobody will get in line." The story of Harry Wilson (Russell Wilson's father, Jeff's teammate in college) and Reggie Williams. "Football teams are self policing. It's a series of peer relationships. Failure is not definitive. You have to always think about the next play." "The best people get 100% of the work done in 80% of the time. That leaves them more time to push boundaries." How did Jeff get picked to be Jack Welch's successor? "I was a good peer. Your peers are who promote you. Those relationships have to be earned." What was a Jack Welch Quarterly Business Review like? "Jack was a screamer. He was spontaneous. He would like at page 7 and then jump to page 17 and ask questions." Front line obsession - "You have to have a passion for understanding how people work." Front line managers - "I told them they are more important than me. That have direct access to the customer." The profession of sales: why it's noble Amazing sense of urgency - Never waste a minute or let it pass See the company through the customers eyes - "The salesforce sets the culture... I was persistent, dogged..." Good leaders are systems thinkers: Keep your head up and stay engaged at the same time Read books, ask question... "You must be curious." Sustain excellence: Must be a learner. "Fred Smith (CEO of FedEX) is my leadership hero." Heart broken over GE: "You can still progress as a human being even when you have a broken heart. You have to keep trying. Even when the efforts don't seem to be working for you." "There's value in a human being in just keep moving. Don't hide. Don't disappear." When you are on top, it is easy to be long on friends. When you hit bottom, there are a select few who reach out. For me, those standouts included American Express's Ken Chenault, Delta Airlines' Richard Anderson, and especially Cisco's John Chambers. Apply to be part of my Leadership Circle

I think no matter how high up you get in an organization, you need to have a passion for watching how people work. I like watching people in their national setting and ask them how they did their job, whether they were a sales leader, a factory manager, a service technician. And I think good leaders and good students of work because that gives you a perspective of what it feels like, what tools work, what things don't work. And that's important. Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show presented by Brixie and Meyer. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text learners to 4422 to become part of Mindful Monday.

You along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders will receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning 9 o'clock Eastern to help you start. your week off right. The latest trends, ideas, articles, books, podcasts to help you become a better leader. You'll also receive more details about how my book, Welcome to Management, will help you build a more committed team. Text, learners to 44222. Now on tonight's featured leader, it's Jeff Emelt. He was the CEO of GE for 16 years. He's been named one of the world's best CEOs three times by Barron's.

He famously was chosen by Jack Welch, who, by the way, has been named Manager of the Century by Fortune, to be Jack's successor at GE. Now, when Jeff got the job as CEO in 2001, the market cap of GE was $400 billion. When he left, $220 billion, a 45% drop. Yes, we will talk about that. He is also the author of a new book titled Hot Seat, What I Learned, Leading a Great American Company, a few of the topics we discuss. The three questions, Jeff asks all leaders to learn if they can lead. Then Jeff shares how the best people get 100% of the work done in 80% of the time and what they do with the extra 20 that they create for themselves.

And then his second day as GE CEO was September 11th, 2001. He shares how he led when everyone was scared. Ladies and gentlemen, I know you'll get a lot out of this one. It's Jeff Imelt. Jeff, it is so good to talk to a fellow Ohioan, man. You grew up just down the street from me in Cincinnati while I'm here in Dayton. So good to see you, man. Good to see, Ryan.

I'm a huge, I love Cincinnati. It's my home and it always will be. And I have so many friends there. And it's just a great place. So it's great to be with you. Part of the reason, or maybe the reason you lived there and grew up there was because of your dad. And that's where I want to start. Because you had told me, and this, this I think applies to me and a lot of people listening was you're raised by your dad, Joe, your mother, Donna.

And you said, I remember. remember when my dad had a great boss. He was motivated and when he had a lousy boss, he was neither challenged nor happy. The worst kind of boss he always used to say was one who criticized all day long but never offered solutions. And I loved reading the parts about you and your dad and your relationship growing up and why you probably went to GE given he was a lifer as well. Can you share more about your upbringing and perhaps your parents and some of the key learnings that you picked up from them. Yeah, Ryan.

So I had the benefit of having really great parents. They were, you know, kind of depression children. So they never took things for granted. And they were always problem solvers. My mom was a teacher and my dad, you know, really did his work at GE. I would say, you know, my life was the intersection between math and team sports. So if you said, what two things kind of came together?

I loved math. I loved problem solving and figuring stuff out. And that has stayed with me my whole career. And then I was really an athlete. I played football, baseball, basketball. I had a great experience in all three in Cincinnati and made me, really kind of those two things kind of set me on my way. I think, you know, all the time that I was responsible for GE,

I would always, when I would be teaching, I would always tell our frontline managers that to the people who work here, they're more important than I am. That basically the frontline leadership of the company, that's who people see every day. And, you know, I might be an abstraction. You're a name they know, but they see every day the people on the front lines. And that's why they're very important culture carriers. They're very important for operations. and I always ran the place with a sense that they were the most important people in the company. And a lot of that came from, you know, the way I was raised. A mix-in, you know, I spent, I have a daughter who's 34.

She always had internships when she was going to college that were kind of like office and fancy. I worked in a forward assembly when I was going to college. So, you know, in those days, there were no internships. Your internship was hourly work. And I can't tell you how much I got out of that, Ryan, even in my later days. I was always, I always had a good relationship with the union leaders. I always identified with how they viewed their life and their role. And a lot of that came from, again, the way I was raised, which was do work, you know, be a good worker, no matter what it was, mowing grass or working in a factory or doing my work professionally.

That was always the number one thing. You mentioned you played sports. You played the same three sports I played in high school. and you played the same sport in college that I played. So we have some uncommon, common hours. I graduated from Ohio University where I played in the Mac. You went to Dartmouth before going to graduate school at Harvard. And there are two people, though, at Dartmouth that I want to talk about that you've written a lot about.

Can you, and I'll just set the stage and then let you tell the story. Can you tell tell me about Harry Wilson and Reggie Williams? Yeah, no, definitely both good friends, both great guys. Reggie Williams was a linebacker from Michigan, Flint, Michigan. He went on to play 13 years for the Bengals. And, you know, when I was 18 years old and went away to school, he was the best athlete I'd ever seen. You know, in other words, he was physically gifted,

he was a hard hitter, he was a state champion wrestler and really a super guy. And I remember telling the story in the book, Ryan, and where we were struggling as a team, you know, we were like 500. We should have been better. And we had a team meeting. And the second string quarterback stood up. And Reggie was the captain. And he said, you know, what Reggie?

The problem's you, right? And I thought, oh, my God, this is courage in action. And, you know, we had it out. And, you know, I'll never forget that day as long as I'll talk a little bit about in the bark. Yep. They had the courage. Somebody had the courage.

Like backup quarterback guy, not even playing, to stand up and say, the problem is you. Our best player, our most athletic person, our best player is you. He says,

when the best player is not caring about the team, nobody else will get in line. And he was right. And I think Reggie even knew that he was right, but it showed me the power of being willing to stand apart. And that stayed with me, really my whole life.

life. Harry grew up in Virginia. His dad was a college president. And there were three Wilson brothers that all went to Dartmouth. One was a running back. Harry was a right receiver. Harry had the best hands, was a smooth, all-ivy, also played baseball, played center field and baseball. And, you know, what happens when you graduate, you kind of lose touch with people. But I stayed, let's say, connected with Harry. There was another friend of mine named Jimmy Lee Solomon. He and I were really great friends. And he was good friends with Harry. So I stayed in touch with him over the years. And Jimmy used to say to me, you know, like Harry's, he's got a kid that really is an athlete. And I put it away. And then I saw Russell Wilson for the first time when he got drafted.

And he looks just like his dad, right? And so every time you see Russell speak on TV, and talk about the team. You hear his dad's voice, you know, just the character and the class and the competitiveness. So, yeah, I had two really great pals

that ended up doing great things. What did you learn from the sporting fields that you then took into the business world? So you have this great, I think I brought, I played quarterback and brought some of those skills

into the business world that were helpful, did not have the math skill that you developed and still don't. getting my MBA was very hard, especially the accounting class and finance struggled. I'm curious, what did you take from your alignment too? Like you have to be smart and you never get any of the credits and you deserve just about all of it. So I'm curious what you took from the

field as then you progressed into a career. And you started essentially as kind of a front line guy. You didn't just get hired as the CEO. It took a long, time to get there. So what are some of the things you took from the field into the business role to help you. I'll give you some, Ryan, that maybe people don't talk about a lot. I'd say the importance of peer relationships. In other words, teams, teams are really self-policing. You know, you have a coach and the coach tells you what to do, but you really police yourself, particularly on an offensive line. So I learned the importance of peer relationships. You know, I learned that failure is, not definitive. You know, in other words, like if I would, the night after a football game,

I didn't remember the good blocks. I remember like the ones I missed. And you kind of get sense that you can survive failure. And the last one is, look, think about the next play, right? Whatever happened in the past really doesn't matter. Always think about the next play. So I think those are the things that are really always top of mind for me about being an offensive line and being a football player and the experiences I had. Let's, we won't go in perfect order, but we'll go in some semblance of an order, Jeff, with your career. So you get done playing.

And I want to fast forward a little bit to where you have a job at GE and you get moved to Texas. I believe you're a sales manager role. Yeah, sales manager. Sales manager role. and I want to go personal before we go business. And somebody catches your eye. And the reason again, because I think we also have this in common is I also met my wife at work.

I also was in a leadership position. She was not at the time. Didn't work for me. It was but was in a different part of the business. She also was maybe the number one sales professional in our division at the time. And I believe Andy was at least that or close to that. And so to me, I know I'm personally extremely attractive. to excellence and to people who are performers and produce and they get it done and they got

the brains and the work ethic. I don't know. I feel like as I was reading about this, that you, we have this in common because it sounds like Andy was just a stud sales performer and that was part of the attraction there. Yeah, look, we actually had booth duty together. That was kind of how we met at a trade show. And, you know, it was hard for her to keep in a career. because of my position and things like that, so she decided to retire. But, you know, I'm lucky, Ryan, in my life that my mother was a strong woman and my wife was a strong woman. And I think, so I had two role models all the time that, you know, as I began a career where I had women working for me or could, you know, do things for their career or try to help them,

I had really excellent, you know, kind of role models about how to treat people. and giving people a fair chance and all those things. And so, yeah, for sure that matters. And it also is helpful, like when you lead an intense life, that your partner has perspective on what you're doing and can give it context and things like that. So, yeah, no, that was really fortunate. And we've been married now 35 years.

So, you know, something's worked. I love it. There was a, I want you to tell the story. So there was a, you. You could, if your boss was willing to invest, you could, I believe it was $45,000 in a Mexican plant that you wanted about. Can you tell that story? Because I think the reason I want to bring this up, Jeff, is because I think it's important. I found people who sustain excellence have a bias for action. They can see a problem and a solution. And they have the guts and the

willingness to ask for some sort of investment. And they go and get it done. And I, and I, and I, I think this is the story that I hope you can share. It's a great lesson for your listeners. I think, Ryan, because I always tell young managers, look, the best people get 100% of the work done and 80% of the time. So they always leave an extra amount to do something that's extra. And they're always willing to push the envelopes to get things done. So I was a sales manager and there was very beginning of companies moving.

factories into northern Mexico. And I went to El Paso and said, gosh, if only we had local capability, a local warehouse so that we could service these customers, we'd never lose an order. So my boss came to town. We flew to El Paso. I had like a little business plan. I had like a two-page business plan. I said, look, if you give me $45,000 bucks, I can rent a warehouse. and I guarantee you we'll get $7 million more in revenue, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? So he said, look, I don't know if this is a good idea or a bad idea, but because you ask for it, I'm going to let you do it. He said, really, she said, like, I just like people that ask for things, kind of what you said,

and we did it, and it worked, and, you know, those kinds of decisions are the things that bring you up in your career and allow you to stand out in a path, right? You know, everybody needs you to do just your job. That's key. But I think your bosses want to see you do more than your job, and that's also really important. Okay. You progress through your career. You're making a series of those types of ask, and I think you just have this bias for action,

and that is why you progress quickly in your career at GE. And I know we're skipping some steps, but ultimately it gets to the point where the legendary Jack Welch says he's going to retire at some point. And then at one point they named three potential successors, which seems like a bizarre way to go about this. And they said the two who don't get it must leave the company. Again, it's like Survivor, but with the world's biggest and best company at the time. What was that like in that moment when they name you three guys and that your, going to succeed this titan who was named i believe the greatest manager of uh the century yeah

it's a tree yeah walk take us inside the moment of what's going through your mind when they name the three of you uh what will they get into some of the specifics as well but what's going on at that point yeah so you know i think people kind of knew where the timing was from the extent of jack retiring uh there were three of us who we all knew each other we'd all worked together for a while long time. I think it was just so much more public than anything I was used to. So they named the three of us as success as potential successors, which, you know, I had never been in the newspaper before. My family wasn't used to it. It just was like too much too quickly. And then over the next couple weeks, I was in, I was at headquarters. And Jack said, look, I need to spend 30 minutes

with you. So I say, hey, great, come in. And we sat down and he said, I just want you to know that if you don't get the job, you've got to leave. And I said, you're kidding. You know, I was 45 years old. I had only worked at the company. I liked the company. I even liked Jim and Bob, you know, and he says, no, you got to go. And I said, okay. And to be honest with you, I didn't even tell my wife. I didn't want to, I think she would have just been like freaked out. So I just kind of held it inside and said, look, and then maybe a couple weeks after that, I said, you know, I met with Jack a couple weeks ago. And, you know, if I don't get the job, you and I are going to have to leave, which in her world, practical world, wasn't so much me leaving G. It would mean probably a move. You know, we had a young daughter at the time. So that's, you know, I think my ending was very practical about it. So, and then it just was so public. It went on for so long and it just was an uncomfortable feeling, let's say. Why do you think he picked you?

You know, I can ask a lot. You never really know the answer. I think it goes back to some of the questions you asked earlier, Ryan, which was, I was a good peer, you know. I think, I think I had really strong peer connections and relationships. And I always say in most companies, your peers, promote you. Your boss kind of has to like you and the people that work for you kind of have to like you. But your peer relationships, those are free. Those have to be earned. And I think that's what people can recognize. So when I would go into a business review or kind of review a team,

I would always watch the body language as somebody was speaking and see what other people really were thinking and feeling. And I think that had something to do with it. So I've heard that Jack has run these legendary QBRs, quarterly business reviews, and a lot of other people have implemented them, including where I worked, a place called Lexus Nexus. And these were events. I mean, big moments. And as a mid-level manager when I was a regional sales manager and then a director and then a VP, I remember preparing like crazy for these QBRs because I wanted to, one, kind of have the back of my team and show them that my team were were was awesome people on my team but also that it was I viewed it as an opportunity to show that I know my stuff. What was what were the QBRs like

when you were working for Jack? Because I know there were moments where he basically told you he was going to fire you that where you struggled at times. But then there obviously had to be other ones where he loved you because he ended up picking you to be his successor. So what were those QBRs like with him? And then I would be curious, too, what were they like with you when you were in charge? Yeah, you know, Ryan, I would say, like, a lot of stuff gets written about Jack, and he was tough for sure, but he was inspirational. I really, I never was, like, afraid of him or never felt like he asked anything. You know, he was a screamer, you know, and that sometimes sends people, you probably have football coaches that are like that.

For sure. I mean, almost all of them at back. And sometimes people would confuse his tonal. a voice actually with what he was asking and what, and I think that basically what he looked for is he wanted you to be prepared, but he enjoyed spontaneity, right? He never stayed to the script. So you might have a 20-page presentation. You know all 20 pages really well. And he would just say, he would go to page 7, then page 17, and then spend 30 minutes talking about something else. And I think he used that as a way to really see, you know, the people that actually know their business don't need to be scripted enough much.

You know, so I'll tell you a story like one of the jobs that put me on my career was fixing compressors and refrigerators. And this was a big product recall. And it took place, let's say, 1989. And it was brutal. This was the biggest product recall in the history of the company. and we were going monthly to the G boardroom, and it was all about costing the company money, and it was brutal.

We got yelled at every time, right? So we had to go one time and say, look, Jack, we underestimated the reserve, and a set of $400 million, it's really got to be $5 million. And he went rip ship, okay? And he goes after me, and the good news was

I had actually gone out in the field to repair compressors. So I went out like every other week. I would do a tech ride and I would go into people's home with a uniform on and sit down and fix. Compress. I was horrible, by the way. What was your title at the time? I was vice president of consumer service. You had a big up job, but you're going doing like a tech.

But it saved my ass, really right? In other words, when it came to this meeting, I could explain to the boss actually why the repair costs more. And he was saying, well, why does it take 105 minutes? I said, well, look, here's the prep. Here's this. Here's that. So for like 30 minutes, it was one-on-one describing how the repair takes place, right? That helped me.

That's how you supplied. It's not so much like what was in the presentation. It was kind of like he could get a sense that I was hands-on, that I knew my stuff, and that I was willing to defend what the answer was, It's not just throwing other people under the bus. And I think that's critical for your listeners. It's having a frontline obsession. I remember Chris Zook talked about this.

And one of my all-time favorite bosses, guy named Brian Miller, he was high up, but he never forgot how to carry a bag. For a sales guy, right, you go and carry a bag. He never forgot because he always did it. Like he made sure that it was a part of his regular routine was to go on sales calls, even though he had ascended into these very high roles.

And I think it's a good reminder for all of us as we ascend in our career to bigger titles and bigger roles where the job is different. You got to manage up. You got to present to the board. You have Jack Welch. But to remember that Jeff Emel even went in and fixed a refrigerator or a compressor. And because of that, that is why you were able to present so well when dealing with problems. Exactly.

I would also say, I think no matter how high up you get in an organization, you need to have a passion for watching how people work. You know, in other words, I like watching people in their national setting and ask them how they did their job, whether they were a sales leader, a factory manager, a service technician. And I think good leaders are good students of work, right? Because that gives you a perspective of what it feels like, what tools work, what things don't work. work and that's important. One of the things you wrote in chapter two is I'd always believe an important determinant of success could be found in how one answered three questions, those questions. How fast can you learn?

How much can you take and what will you give to those around you? Can you expand on that and the importance? Because the title of that chapter's leaders learn every day. You can imagine why that jumped out of me when I was looking through the book with the importance of those questions and being able to answer them as a leader. Yeah. But, you know, so careers are not built in a straight line. They're built through ups and downs and learning every day.

And I always tell people, you know, how fast you can learn. Because you never get hired for what you know because the world changes to. And I would say particularly today, the world just changes too quickly. So you don't get hired for what you know. You get hired for how fast you can learn, right? how much can you take? You know, my favorite philosopher is Mike Tyson. Like everybody has a strategy until they get punched in the nose.

And that's the way life is. Like you're going to, and I would say with many of your listeners, right, your raw intelligence isn't going to limit you. Ultimately, what's going to limit you in your journey is, do you really want to take the heat? Do you really want to go for it? Are you willing to make the sacrifices? Are you willing to keep learning?

So that's how much you can take. And then how much you can give to others? You know, it's, it's tough to take this journey by yourself. It's tough to take this journey. You know, business itself is really boring unless people are involved, right? It's what the people part is what makes it interesting and fun and challenging. So, you know, I think telling these people, I teach now a bit, business school class, and I go through this at the end of every class. So I do this on the last

session of every class. I go through the three questions. And I basically look around the room and say, look, any one of you could be the president of GE or J.P. Morgan or Kroger's, or you go to the list. You can't. But most of you will choose not to. You know, most of you will kind of opt out. And I just think that's true about life, about business careers, anyhow. your first day your luck is amazing by the way your first day as CEO of GE is September was September 10th 2001 so everybody go back slowly think about what you were doing on September 10th 2001 and then think about the next day that the tragedy for those of us especially who are listening in America and you

introduce yourself there's 300,000 employees you're excited I believe you said you went to flew to Seattle. Is that right? Yeah. And, you know, you, you, you, you're all ready to go. Things are good. You're Jack's successor. Here we go. And then the next morning you wake up. You're on the West Coast. The tragedy happened here on the East Coast. What was that, that second day as CEO like for you? Oh, it was a gut punch on a number of different levels. You know, what happened to our country, two of our employees died, so it was a gut punch. It had a massive impact on our businesses.

Down in Cincinnati, the aircraft engines business, the insurance business, even the media business were all impacted. And I'd say that the third thing, Ryan, is it really set in a new era in the U.S. of volatility of geopolitical risk, of tail risk events. I had never seen a terror risk event until 9-11. So kind of a new era of risk and risk management. So all those things were. And so I was just going by instinct, right? You just kind of go by instinct and kind of take problems as they come. And I always think in a crisis, you know, particularly like COVID or 9-11, good leaders absorb fear.

They don't pass. They don't make people around them afraid for no reason. So it doesn't mean that you need to blow smoke, but you need to give people a plan to make progress. I think good leaders hold two truths at the same time, right? That the worst can happen and the best can happen, and they don't close their eyes, opportunities that may arise as they go through the process.

And good leaders are good communicators. And by communication, I mean keeping people contemporary, but also be willing to say I don't know. You know, that here's what I know right now. I'll be smarter tomorrow. I'll let you know again tomorrow. And those things all came to the four as I stood there after 9-11. By the end of your first week, GE shares dropped 20% decreasing the company's market cap by $80 billion. What is going through the mind of Jeff Emmol at that time?

80 billion and you're saying, I didn't, I didn't do anything. You know, I mean, what, what are you, what's like in your private conversations are you saying and thinking at that moment? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I'd be lying if I didn't say that I cared about it or that I looked at it, right? You have to and you must. But I knew at that moment there was nothing I could really do about it, that basically my priority was to save the company or to preserve our aviation business. And that's really where I put the most attention. So I think in a crisis, you have to prioritize those things that are really, you know, you have to be very clear about those things that you can control, those things that matter

and put your focus on them. Yeah. I want to talk about, I may pronounce his name wrong. Omar is Shrek? Yeah. Is that right? Okay. You said in your career, you meet only a handful of leaders who have the trifecta of being

able to innovate, execute, and develop talent. I love that trifecta. Can you expand more on both Omar as well as why that's critical for leaders? Look, I think we trivialize sometimes leadership to assume that everybody can do everything. And not only is that impossible, but it's not actually what you want if you're building a company. And I would always look at people to say, you know, we had thousands of good operators, people that could exercise. People that could execute people that knew drills. You know, in Cincinnati, Ryan, she's retired now, but there's a woman named Colleen Athens.

She probably had 30,000 people working for her in the aviation supply chain. She was the manufacturing VP for aviation. She was an amazing operator, amazing, right? She knew the details and the metrics and the people and all that stuff. And then there's people that are kind of like really creative and good innovators. I know that you did one of these sessions with Beth Comstock. You know, Beth Comstock is an innovator. She's creative.

She's a different thinker. She's, she's, you know, sees what's next. She's awesome, right? And then you have people that are excellent with people, that are magnets for talent, know how to recruit. You know, there was a guy named Dan Heitzelman that also spent time in aviation, but he was the company's best trainer. He was a vice chairman when he retired,

but he could recruit and train people really excellently. So that's the three pillars, let's say. And then there's people that can do them all, right? And so Omar Ischrak was somebody I brought in to run the ultrasound business. He was a great leader for a long time, then became CEO of Metronix. And Omar was creative. He knew where markets would go.

he was very focused, right? He was an excellent operator because he knew how to distill things down to two or three critical paths. And he was a beacon for talent because he knew how to empower people to let them do their best work. And, you know, maybe I saw 10 of those people over my whole career, not just when I was CEO, that really were three sport athletes, you know, triathletes. and it's rare when you see it. When you're teaching these courses at Stanford, I have to imagine if I was in the class,

I would say, well, I want to be like Omar. Can you teach me? Can you teach me? Is that something like I know, I don't want, it's not quite the nature versus nurture question, but in a way it is. How can somebody develop the skill to be like, be like, oh, no, it's a great, it's a great question

because I do talk about it in my class. But what I basically say, you know what I basically say, you know, is, okay, it's really hard to train yourself to be this. But as you leave school, you have to be good at one of those three. You better either be a good operator, you better be a creative talent, or you better be a beacon for talent, because you can't progress in your career and not be good at any one of the three. So my advice to them is make sure you're good at one,

and then give yourself the experiences and the self-confidence through your career path and you work for in what you learn that give you a chance to be good at the other two. And some of that is exposure, some of that is training, some of that's experience, and just give yourself that kind of chance. You said when writing your book, I believe this is in the acknowledgement. You said the acknowledgement section. One of the things you learned is you have to really. get, it helps you gain clarity, which I think writing in general does. That's why all leaders

should be writing every day. But writing in general can help create clarity. And one of the things you had to learn about was your strengths and weaknesses. When you think about that trifecta, did you have all three? Do you have all three? No, all the time. I would say I naturally had creativity and people skills. I had to supplement myself with good operators, right? So, my CFO, Keith Sharon, he was a great operator. Dave Joyce, who runs aviation business in Cincinnati, he was a great operator. So I think it's also important to be self-aware and know that you aren't always the best at all three, but you still need to get all three done.

And fortunately, at G, we had a lot of good operators. I would say where companies tend to fall down as they don't have enough innovation. I actually think a lot of people have good operators, but not enough companies have good on the innovation side. Well, speaking of going in the wrong direction, I mean, part of what happened at GE is it went, it went backwards as far as it didn't grow over the course of your time. And there are, we could talk for days and days about the why behind that. Was innovation part of it? What were, what were some of the high level? If you, you zoomed out and had to say, okay, here are a few of the things because it felt to me as I'm learning more about this that I don't want to say it was a

house of cards that Jack left you but in some cases with the financial aspect of it that I didn't even completely understand as I'm digging into that there were parts of it that were just almost a ticking time bomb that were going to explode at some point so what were some of the keys that led to the the company once you took over not not only not growing but going in the opposite direction you know Ryan would again, one of the reasons why I wrote the book is I wanted to get a complete story about the company itself, really. And the second thing is, is that we live through many terror risk events and many crises. And I wanted to give the reader a sense of how you traverse

those things. Right. So look, Jack was a great leader, but the world changed. You know, the world, you know, I would say the company I grew up in was process intense and very financially driven. And the world became more global and more technical and more diverse. And those are the shifts that we needed to make and that we tried to make. I think on the positive side of the ledger, look, we generated lots of earnings in cash while I was CEO. We had really good businesses. We had good people, good initiatives. But, you know, really kind of unwinding GE-Cal. capital was really a challenge, right? And that's on me, right?

I take responsibility for that. I don't blame anybody but myself. But, you know, the GE story is a complicated one, and I want it to be told more fully. One of the criticisms about you that I talked to Beth Comstock about on this podcast was this phrase called success theater. And Beth basically was written that you said, don't bring me any of these issues. Like, so people only brought you good news. And she said, actually, it was the opposite of that.

So I don't know how that became a narrative. In my experience with Jeff, he, he, and her, and her, in her, in her as a leader, we wanted that brought to us. But this, this narrative got creative that Jeff only likes this success theater. What, what, what is your response when you saw some of that criticism about you? Yeah, you know, Ryan, from 2010 through 2017, 10 times a year, I would have a senior leader fly to my home. We would have dinner as a couple with they and their spouse on a Friday night. And I would spend five or six hours with them one-on-one on a Saturday morning. And the whole goal of this was to say, tell me something I don't know.

Tell me about your business. Tell me about yourself. Tell me about your career. What do you like about GE? What don't you like? What do you think I can do better? And it was an unplugged session for five or six hours. I did that for seven years.

Wow. I can't tell you how many things I learned. I did, I took action on. So look, I mean, when things go bad, people point fingers. I made the decision for three or four years to keep my mouth shut out of respect of the company. But I didn't plan to do that forever because sometimes these words, it's not that they hurt me, but they hurt everybody, right? And so I think as a leader, and maybe the people on your call, like, you shouldn't be defensive, but you should know how to defend yourself. There's a difference. When you say defensive, it means you're not listening. It means that you have thin skin. That's not good. But being

willing to take a punch and give one back, that's a good thing, right? That's a necessary thing. It's good for you. It's good for your team. It's good for your company. And, you know, again, that's just not necessarily, that's what I'm trying to do with the book. But I think there's some value in telling the complete truth. And you're a lifer, even to the point of putting it on your body. I hear this is a, was it a bet with your daughter? What's going on there here, Jeff? You know, so look, Ryan, I like tattoos. I always have. Do you have a lot of tattoos? I only have one. But I used to say that. You like tattoos, but you don't really have them. Yeah, no, look, I grew up in Finneytown. You know, what are you going to do? I grew up in Cincinnati. So my daughter, I used to,

tease my daughter that I was going to go get a tattoo and she said, you know, Dad, you're all talk. You're all talk, no action, ever do anything. So I was at the office on a Saturday. I, I Googled tattoo in Danbury, Danbury, Connecticut, because I wanted to be far enough away where people wouldn't recognize me. And that's kind of a blue collar town in Connecticut. So I drove there on a Saturday afternoon. I had a picture of the GE logo. And then I have my daughter's initials and my wife's initials. And I said, here's what I want. Here's the colors I want. And she said, well, you know, that's kind of a funky tattoo. And I said, yeah, I lost a, I'm in a bowling league and I lost a bet. So, so that's my, that's my story. So my daughter almost passed out when I got home. She was,

where is it? It's on my lower, it's my left hip. Okay. So you, you have to find a place that Nobody can see, and won't hurt too badly, but it isn't inappropriate. And you have no desire to get it taken away. You're going to keep it. Yeah, you know, I joined the board of Twilio, Brian. So you were having a town hall. And I was being interviewed by a young HR person. And she said, you know, at Twilio, we believe in authenticity.

And so tell us something that shows your authentic self. and I just without missing a baby I said I have a tattoo and she says no no you don't so I stood up and I kind of did that and yeah this is history right I love it uh Jeff I want to talk um so sales is kind of in my DNA my dad was a lifetime sales guy wrote books about sales he still does it um led thousand person sales forces I've I've worked in it for a long time is my first job after getting done playing football and so I loved reading about your kind of early stage of your career. I think the profession of selling is when done right is as noble as it gets.

Can you can you share about your mindset and philosophy on the profession of sales? Yeah, look, I completely agree. I think different companies treated different ways. I think sales, when it when it's done right, you do two things. You have an amazing sense of urgency, right? and so you just never let a minute pass without solving a problem or getting something done. And the other one is that you're able to see your company through your customer's eyes. And the people that can do those two things can really make it happen, you know, for their company.

You know, there's a lot of different functions in a company, but the Salesforce sets the culture. They create the enthusiasm and the winning spirit. and all those things. So I think that's really critical. And the last thing I would say is that one of the things that made me a pretty good salesman is that I was really a pain in the ass. I was persistent. I was dogged, almost to the point of being horrible.

But I was a pain in the ass to get stuff done for my customer. And I know you, I always say to people, you know, you interviewed Chambers not too long ago. And I always say to people, like, if there was. one order left on earth and I could only pick one salesman to get it, it would be John Chambers. He just has the passion for it, the aptitude for it, and the intelligence for it. I love John Chambers. Are you guys good, buddies? Yeah, we are great friends. Well, you wrote that. I learned so much from my peers, CEOs of other companies who became friends. You said there are too many names, but when you are on top, it is easy to be long on friends. When you hit bottom,

There are a select few who'd reach out. And one of them, you mentioned three names. And the third one was especially John Chambers. What's that relationship like? Oh, look, I think John, you know, John and I've known each other for a long time. We both have been on top and on bottom so we know what it feels like. But he's just one of those, you know, too infrequently. We don't go the extra mile for our friends.

And, you know, the phone call out of sequence, the phone call to give support when somebody's down. That means so, so much. It's something I always tried to do, you know, through my career and it's something I appreciate in others. And I just think, you know, it's life, you know, you live in a time like this with COVID and you understand how little control we have over events, right? But the one thing we can always control is ourselves and how we treat situations. And so that's, you see that in a crisis, right? You see, you know, I would always look up like during the financial crisis. I'd say, okay, these three people, they're awesome.

That person, as soon as things come down, I'm going to fire them. Because they don't, they don't know how to react when the chips are down. You know, they're fair weather people. I learned a lot of that from football. Yeah. When we were winning, everyone was the captain. Everyone was the leader. What I really like to look at was half time of a game.

We're losing. We're getting physically. up and the look into the eyes of the guys around like who is ready to who's ready to fight who's ready to go right now like that's what I'm really looking for because when you're winning everybody's smiling and having a good time yeah I'm the guy but when when we're getting literally physically beat up we're losing who is going to fight and come back that's who I want around me and that that's why our coaches were big on all these workouts leading up to the to the to the to our game season because it showed who's willing to fight through.

through the tough tough stuff there. Did you learn that from sports as well? Oh, for sure. I think sports, again, there's always the next play, right? Don't, the play didn't work. Don't throw, don't sit around and throw each other under the bus. Just do the play better, right? That's what you, that's what you learn.

You know, I became, because I lived in New England for so long, I became a Patriots fan. And I used to like to watch Belichick when the team was losing, not when they were winning. But, you know, when the team was losing, he would have his back to the field. and he would be kneeling in front of the offensive line, and he was telling them exactly what he needed them to do, right?

And so he would sit there for like 20 minutes and wouldn't even watch the game and would just be like focused on, you know, he would sit there and say, look, I can't control the score right now. It is what it is. But if I can make these guys better the next time they go out there, that's my job. And that's what's made him such a successful coach for so long. Yeah.

I I vividly remember seeing him do that all the time. He'd have the little board. He'd be drawing a play, like down in the trenches coaching, little details. I think that's part of being a leader. I have a systems thinking question for you, Jeff. You and Andy will sit and watch Netflix at times, and you like to watch I read Murder Mysteries. And at times, she'll turn you and say, who do you think did it? she's all excited and you'd say, honey, you just kind of let it come to you.

And you talk about how leaders need to be like this from a systems thinking perspective. Can you, can you share more about that? Yeah, I'd give you two thoughts. You know, one is kind of like being willing to look horizontally or look, you know, unobvious things and build connections. And so I think for your listeners, they need to keep their head up and stay engaged in what's going on in the world around them. And a couple of things that I, you know, like I picked up clean technology before

it was popular, digital innovation. But I didn't get that because I'm smarter than anybody else. I got it because I asked questions. I would watch customers. I would read books. And so I just think you want to be well read and you want to be out in the market asking questions all the time. And then the other part of it, which gets the suggestion you just made, which is, look,

to get from point A to point B, it takes 20 steps, let's say. And as a team, we're on step seven. And I would say to people, you know, like, I don't know what step 12 looks like yet, okay, but we're going to figure it out together. We're going to get there at the right time. We're going to keep going. And leaders have to be comfortable with uncertainty, particularly when you're driving change, particularly when it's volatile, to say, look, it's 20 steps. We're on a journey. We're going to go together. Let's trust you. each other, but we don't have to have all the answers to start because you never have all the answers to start. And that's where I get to my wife. You know, we watch, you know, I tell the story

like if you watch Breaking Bad, right, all 65 episodes, by the end of the eighth episode, you think he is, Walter White is a great science teacher that has cancer. And by episode 65, he's the antichrist right so you have to keep progressing in your journey as a leader Jeff when you think about all of the incredible leaders you've been fortunate in it to do to be surrounded by what have you found to be some of the common behaviors of leaders who sustain excellence learning you know it's just it's just you know my hero is is Fred Smith from FedEx. Fred started FedEx with one plane and is still the leader today. And he's always scratching and clawing and learning and figuring out what's next.

And, you know, that's just the most important, that's just the most important thing is learning, digging, being curious, you know, think about what's next. And, and, you know, whether it's Jeff Bezo, or Tim Cook or Jamie Diamond or I could go down the list. Belichick or Nick Saban, you know, go to coaching. They're just curious all the time. Look at Alabama's offense today versus what it was a decade ago, completely different, right? Yet they won a national championship in 2010.

They won a national championship in 2020. So that's what I mean by a learner. Is that I found curiosity at the top of the list from, I've done 400 plus of these things. Is that a learned behavior or are you born with that? I think some of that's learned at your mother's knee and some of it, you know, you kind of learned the hard way because you didn't ask the right questions at the right time. But some of that's just the way you're brought up, right?

Some people are just so incurious about almost everything and it's hard to say what made them that way or how to cure them of it. But I think it's a combo. Jeff, as you end your book, I'm not going to spoil it, but there are parts of it that I think are tough, you know, and I felt for you as you felt some pain for some of the things that have happened to employees at GE. And I sense you have this real compassion and empathy for them and you feel responsible for some of that. And yet when I talk to you, at least to me, I'm feeling someone who is at peace. who seems happy, who seems grateful for what they have.

Can you walk me through how you think and feel each day, knowing that some of the struggles that happened to GE and what happened to some of the employees with pensions or whatever? I think some of them got frozen and the, since the stock price dips so much, what's this dichotomy of how you think and feel on a daily basis? Yeah, look, I mean, I think if you read the whole book, there's not a day that goes by that I don't think about the company, don't feel for it, don't feel responsible.

And I guess I want all your listeners to know that I tried my best. But I also want them to know that you can still progress as a human being even when you have a broken heart. and that you have to keep trying even when the efforts don't seem to be working for you. And so I wanted the story to be wrong. I wanted it to feel real because that's how I feel. But I also want to say that there's some value as a human being and just keep moving, right? Just keep learning, keep trying. Don't hide.

Don't disappear. here and maybe there's some listeners out there that can benefit from that. Do you have a broken heart? Oh gosh. I'm sorry. I really, you know, think about something you love, people that love. And it just didn't end the way I wanted it to, right? And that's sad.

That's that's infinitely sad. Yeah. But I also don't want to keep, I don't want to quit giving back to others. I don't want to stop my life and stop learning. And then I carry those two things, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, carry both of them. Well, the book's called Hot Seat, what I learned leading a great American company. Jeff, when I'm sent these books early by teams,

I do my best to be prepared, as you can tell from today. For yours, I was struggling to, I got it digitally, I was struggling to stop. I just kept reading and reading and reading, as I hope you can tell. You did a remarkable job. And I want to give you huge props for writing a book that is, it's it's almost kind of like a novel but it's obviously not it's a true story so uh you did a really good job and i'd encourage people to read hot seat what i learned leading a great american company by

jeff emol thanks so much for being thanks for you thanks for everything love it man i would love to continue our dialogue a dream set up for me one day to have a dinner when we get in person with you and john chambers and i can just sit and be a fly on the wall and listen to you guys talk that'd be great I hope to do that someday. I don't fly wherever you need me to fly, okay? Do it at Montgomery Ribbon. Tell me the time and the place and I'll be there, all right? Thanks so much.

All right, guys. Thanks, Isabella. Really appreciate it. All right. That was great. Thank you. All right. See you.

Wow. I wasn't fully prepared to hear Jeff talk about having a broken heart. And it's evident he gave just about everything. he had to GE and it's upsetting and sad that it didn't turn out exactly the way that he wanted. But I think he's had a massive impact on a lot of people. Certainly went through some battles. They struggled. And I am grateful that he's willing to put all that down in a book and certainly come on the

Learning Leaders show and share. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did a few of my notes, the three questions to ask leaders how fast can you learn how much can you take and what will you give to others and then omar is track not many can be like him but all of us must get good at least one of these if we want to be a leader that's we have to be able to innovate we have to be able to execute or we have to be able to develop talent now it's incredible if we can work to be great at all three, but most can't. So focus on being excellent at least one of those. And then great leaders absorb fear. They give people a plan when there's uncertainty and fear and

doubt. People are looking to you, the leader, for a plan, to take action, to lean into that and let them know what are we going to do. And I thought that was a really good part of our conversation. Once again, I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. And I'm very grateful that you continue to spread the message and tell a friend or two, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leaders Show with Jeff Emmelt, former CEO of GE. It could help you become a more effective leader.

And because you do that and because you continue to write reviews and rate the show on Apple podcast, hopefully five stars, you are continuing to give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.