The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 453: Dr. Gary Chapman - The 5 Love Languages, Resolving Conflict, & Building Trust

Episode Date: January 3, 2022

Read my new book, The Pursuit Of Excellence https://bit.ly/thepursuitofexcellence Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Text Hawk to 66866 for "Mindful Monday" This episode starts with a short review of 2021 and I share my goals for 2022. Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12    https://twitter.com/RyanHawk12 Gary Chapman, PhD, is the author of the bestselling The 5 Love Languages® series, which has sold more than 20 million worldwide and has been translated into 50 languages. Dr. Chapman travels the world presenting seminars on marriage, family, and relationships, and his radio programs air on more than 400 stations.  Notes: The Five Love Languages: Words of Affirmation - Words of affirmation is about expressing affection through spoken words, praise, or appreciation. When this is someone's primary love language, they enjoy kind words and encouragement.\ Quality Time - For those who identify with quality time as their love language, love and affection are expressed through undivided attention. This means putting down the cell phone, turning off the tablet, making eye contact, and actively listening. Physical Touch - A person with this love language feels loved through physical affection. Acts of Service - For acts of service, a person feels loved and appreciated when someone does nice things for them, such as helping with the dishes, running errands, vacuuming, or putting gas in the car. Receiving Gifts - Gift-giving is symbolic of love and affection for someone with this love language. They treasure not only the gift itself but also the time and effort the gift-giver put into it. My personal Love Language assessment results: Quality Time: 37% Words of Affirmation: 33% Acts of Service: 20% Physical Touch: 10% Receiving Gifts: 0% We all express and receive love differently. Consequently, understanding those differences can make a serious impact on your relationship. According to Dr. Chapman, this exercise is one of the simplest ways to improve your relationships. Here are some ways that understanding love languages can improve your relationship: Promotes selflessness - When you are committed to learning someone else's love language, you are focused on their needs rather than your own. Creates empathy - As someone learns more about how their partner experiences love, they learn to empathize with them. Maintains intimacy - If couples regularly talk about what keeps their love tanks full, this creates more understanding in their relationship. Aids personal growth - When someone is focused on something or someone outside of themselves, it can lead to personal growth. Shares love in meaningful ways - When couples start speaking one another's love language, the things they do for their partners not only become more intentional but also become more meaningful. It's not a feeling. The "in love" feeling wears off after about 2 years. It's an attitude to love someone. "I want to do anything I can to enrich your life." There is a thought process and intention behind it. Keys to being a better listener: Start with the intention to understand THEIR perspective Do not interrupt the other person Wait until they are completely done speaking How to earn back trust? Forgiveness is not a feeling, it's a choice. You have to make the choice to forgive someone. Thank you to Verywellmind.com for help preparing for this conversation

I want to talk about goal setting. This is something that I've gone back and forth on over the years. There have been times in my life where I was immensely focused on setting large, ambitious goals and would do everything I could to strive to achieve them. But then as I've matured and grown and read a lot and interviewed many people on my podcast, the Learning Leaders Show, I found that maybe setting big goals isn't helpful. James Clear told me when we recorded, focus more on your systems than your goals. Take, for example, a sports team, they all pretty much have the same goal, and that's to win the championship. And yet,

only one of them does. And so I thought more about that as I'm approaching 2022 and thinking about my goals and what I want to accomplish. And for 2021, I would say the year went incredibly well. I published a podcast episode every Sunday night at 7 o'clock Eastern, 52 of them to be exact. I published a mindful Monday email every single Monday morning, no later than 9.15 a.m. Eastern. I had an amazing partnership come about as of June 1st, 2021 with Insight Global.

and now I am with them and plan to be for the future. I was able to speak all over the country, crisscrossing back and forth, flying amidst at times a global pandemic. There were brief pockets when things were okay to travel. And so things went incredibly well, and I set zero goals for 2021. I was really more focused on the process,

on execution, on shipping my work regularly to try to add value to the lives of the people who read my work. or listen to my podcast. And so this year, though, I am always open to experimentation. I'm always open to trying something that I haven't done in a while. And so I have set some goals for 2022. And I'm sharing them publicly for a couple of reasons. One, I want you to hold me accountable as someone who has interest in the work that I do and hopefully gets value from it. I'd like you to hold me accountable. I'd like you to ask me about them. And two, I think sometimes putting things out into the world gives you a chance for others to help you accomplish them,

specifically with something like dream podcast guest or maybe someone can help out with an introduction. And so if you put it out there publicly, you give yourself a chance for your network to help you. And so without further ado, I'm going to speak my goals. I've also written them out. You can look at my website, learning leader.com, and read all of these. well. I'm going to share with you the goals that I've set for 2022. Notably, they are mostly aligned with my core values and my core values are being thoughtful, thankful, curious, and consistent. So here are the goals. And this first one hits the curiosity and consistency goal. And that is

publish at least 52 episodes. of my podcast, The Learning Leader Show. Now, some would say, well, you've already done that in multiple years. I have, but that doesn't mean it's automatic. It doesn't mean it's easy. This is still really challenging and really hard, and you must be consistent and curious in order to do this when publishing with values. So I want to publish at least 52 episodes of my podcast, The Learning Leader Show.

Also, I want to publish a mindful Monday email every single Monday of 2020. That's my goal. Now, again, I have done this more than 290 weeks consecutively. I want to continue that streak. And I list that as a goal because it's hard to be consistent because it's hard to ship work on a regular basis. Most people quit. I'm going to do everything within my power to continue on with that curiosity and consistency. Two, one of my goals, and this is I think something I've really learned as of 2021. I need to make my business. less dependent on me. There's only so much time in a day. So for example, somebody asked me to create a leadership development program and then go and teach it to their company, which I do have a few of those clients. There's only so many of those I can do. So I need to do a better job of

creating the IP, creating the intellectual property that eventually it can scale by pouring into other leaders who could go out and teach that to companies. So I can't be the only one doing that. And as of today, pretty much my business only involves me teaching it directly to others. And I need to scale in a way to help others teach what I've come up and what I've come up with and what I've learned teach that to other people. So I need to make my business less dependent on me, meaning I need to be in contact with fantastic leaders. give them the intellectual property I've created over the past seven plus years, pour into them to help them become good teachers so that they can go out under the world

and teach them. And this is a way that my business can grow and we can impact more people. Next, I need to be more grateful. And an action-oriented step for being more grateful, I am committed to writing at least 100 thank you notes and sending them, putting them in an envelope, putting a stamp on it, and mailing them out. And I'm going to keep track of this in a Google sheet. So write at least 100 thank you notes.

This is a way for me to live my value of being thankful. Next, the value of being thoughtful. I am committed to doing what Matthew Dix, who was a previous guest in my podcast, calls Homework for Life 100 times. And if you didn't listen to that episode yet, Homework for Life is essentially at the end of the day, you document some of the highlight moments of that day. And Matthew calls this homework for life because if you are consistent and you do this on a regular basis, and he happens to do it just about every day, you find that you're able to build up stories of your life.

You're able to remember them better. It actually helps him slow down time. If you ever talk to someone in there going, oh, my goodness, I can't believe how fast this year went or I can't believe how fast the years go. Homework for life helps slow that time down because you're regularly spending time reflecting, thinking about these stories. and it helps you remember all of the stories. And so at the end of the year, if I have a hundred or more of these stories, I feel like I'm going to be a more thoughtful person. And then from an action-oriented standpoint that I have complete control over,

I am committed to writing and selling my next book proposal or deciding to self-publish my next book. Now, this seems a little crazy because I'm recording this on December 31st, 20, 21. And my book, The Pursuit of Excellence, hasn't even come out yet. It comes out January 25th, 2022. However, writing books is really hard. It forces me to be reflective. It forces me to get very clear on what I believe. And it is, it is a, it is, from a work perspective, it is the hardest thing that I do. And so I think it's healthy for me to regularly be pushing my edges to the edge of my current zone of comfort and competency of like my knowledge base and writing books is a way

for me to do that. So I'm committed by the end of 2022 to either selling my next book proposal or deciding to self-publish my next book. And in order to do that, I have to have a full and complete outline, a full plan of the marketing aspect, a full plan of the general idea of how it's going to impact people and change their life. So that is a, it's a big one for me, but I'm committed to doing that by the end of the year. And then last, I put this on here because I thought, well, maybe if somebody listens to this or watches this or reads what I've written down, maybe they can help me out. And that is, I want to land at least one dream guest on this list. And that list is Dave Matthews, Sarah Blakely, Aaron Sorkin, Chris Martin, Mike Roe, Oprah Winfrey,

Peyton Manning, Taylor Swift, Ed Shearin, Doris Kearns Goodwin, or Michael Jordan. Maybe you're watching and you know somebody, one of those people, and maybe you'd like to do me a solid and help me out and get them on my show. I wanted to publicly put out there, which I've never done before, and say, I like to land a dream guest for my podcast, a learning leader show. So that's it. Those are my goals for 2022. I would love to hear your goals, whether you write them down or you record a video or you say them into a microphone for a podcast. I'd love to hear what your goals are also love to hear your philosophy for goal setting to see if you found this to be helpful or if you think, you know, I don't really need to set goals. I'm just going to focus on the system. I'm not going to publicly put anything out there. My mind is wide open to this. I am, I again, oscillate back and forth on what's best, but I'd love to hear from you. Let me know what your goals are. Now, I think that's a way that maybe we can help one another achieve them if you do in fact set results oriented goals. All right. Thanks so much. I'll talk with you soon. to The Learning Leaders Show, presented by Insight Global.

I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text learners to 4-4-222 to become part of Mindful Monday. You along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world will receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right. You'll also receive the opportunity to read an excerpt of my new book, The Pursuit of Excellence, for free if you text learners to 44222. Now on to tonight's featured leader, a long time coming.

It's Dr. Gary Chapman, the author of the five love languages. He sold more than 20 million copies of it, and it's been on bestseller list for decades. It's a great one. During this conversation we discussed, both of our love languages, and what that means for us at home and at work, and why you should share your love language with your colleagues, then the three things married couples should do every single year, and then how to deal with conflict, both at work and at home. Ladies and gentlemen, you'll get a lot out of this one. It's Dr. Gary Chapman. All right, Gary Chapman. It's so good to have you here in The Learning Leader Show. Welcome. Thank you, Ryan.

It's great to be with you. So I first became aware of you like probably a lot of people because I took your love language's assessment. And I thought it would be a natural place for us to start because it's had such an impact on my life and so many people that I work with, friends and colleagues. What was the genesis, the beginnings of you creating this love language? assessment. Brian, that concept grew out of my counseling with couples. They would sit in my office and one of them would say, I just feel like he doesn't love me or she doesn't love me. And the other would say,

I don't understand that. I do this and this and this. Why would you not feel love? And I knew that people were sincere, but they were missing each other emotionally. So eventually what I did was sit down and read several years of notes that I made when I was counseling and asked myself the question. When someone said, I feel like my spouse doesn't love me, what did they want? What were they complaining about? And their answers fell into five categories. And I later called them the five love languages and started sharing that concept and using it in my counseling. And it just made a tremendous difference for the couples once they discovered that if I want her to feel love, I've got express love in her language. And if I want him to feel love, I've got to express his language. So,

yeah, it's been amazing. That book has been out now for almost 30 years. And every year, it sells more than the year before. That's so cool. Which doesn't happen. Could you have ever thought at the beginning that this would happen? No, I had no concept. I knew the concept would work because I'd been using it probably five years before I wrote the book. But I had no idea that it would sell now over 20 million copies and be translated in over 50 languages around the world. And it's really blew my mind. And it's a part of regular everyday conversation.

What's your love language? What's his love language? I mean, it comes up everywhere. I mean, I can't even imagine the amount of times you've heard it out in the wild. I think it's one of the coolest things when you're out an airport and you see somebody reading your book or listening to your podcast. For you, that has to just be a regular everyday occurrence.

It's very encouraging. It really is. And so many couples have said to me, you know, that book literally saved our marriage. So we were thinking divorce. Yeah. That book, the lights came on. We learned each other's language.

We chose to speak it. And it literally saved our marriage. So the five are words of affirmation, quality time, physical touch, acts of service, and receiving gifts. Would you be okay to go over yours? I'm happy to share mine too. I've taken the assessment multiple times. I retook it this morning just to prepare.

But I'm curious, what are your love language and how do you receive love? My primary love language is words of affirmation. And so when I got married, I knew nothing about love languages, but I give my wife words of affirmation. And one day she said to me, you know, you keep on saying, I love you, I love you. She said, if you love me, why don't you help me? I said, what do you mean? She said, well, you don't ever offer to help with the dishes or vacuum the floors or clean the toilet or anything.

And, you know, I'm thinking in my mind, you know, as a young married, well, I thought, well, my mother did those things. So she's acts of service. These acts of service. I didn't know it then, but, you know, yeah. So now I take the trash out. I vacuum the floors. I clean the toilets, you know. And she tells me I'm the greatest husband in the world.

Okay. So she knows that you need to hear it. You need the words of affirmation. And you know, okay, I need to do all of that work. See, I think that little thing like in getting clear on that because I re-sent it to my wife this morning when after I took it and just gave you a little heads up, see what's different. So mine, it's.

interesting because I'm not just one. I'm 37% quality time, 33% words of affirmations. So I'm, I'm right there. Acts of service for me is next at 20. Physical touch then is 10. Receiving gifts, I scored zero. So that's mine. I'm curious. So you see like there are different percentages of how it comes up. Yeah, I think there are there are many people where two of those, in your case, two of them are very, very similar. And I just say, you know, that means you're bilingual, okay? Either one of those is going to speak deeply to you. Wow. Okay. So I would encourage people if you haven't yet, I think a lot of people have, but if you haven't yet take the love language assessment, because not only will that help you, but you also see a lot more of Gary's work.

And I want to talk about some of your current work that you're working on that I think could help people who are leading, especially maybe in the business landscape, which a lot of people listening are. A new book called Making Things Right at Work, Increased teamwork, resolve conflict, and build trust. So what was the genesis of this book and you wanting to put this out? Well, this book grew out of an earlier book that we wrote for married couples on how to deal with failures in a marriage, because I've said through the years, there are two essentials to long-term healthy marriages. One is that we meet the emotional need for love, and that's where the love language it speaks. And the other is that we deal effectively with our failures, because none of us are

perfect. And you don't have to be perfect to have a good marriage, but you do have to deal with your failures. And that means learning to apologize and forgive. And so that book's been out a number of years now for married couples. And this book for the workplace grew out of that book, because we realized these same two principles are true in the workplace. Two essentials to long-term healthy environments. One is that the people feel appreciated. So we wrote the book a few years ago called the five languages of appreciation in the workplace. And because we found out that about 70% of the people in this country say they feel little to no appreciation coming from the people with whom and for whom they work.

And 64% of the people who leave a job and go to another job say they left. primarily because they didn't feel appreciated. So, you know, that's one side of it. But this is the other, this book is on the other side, and that is dealing with our conflicts and our failures in the workplace. Because, again, none of us are perfect in our relationships at work. And from time to time, we say things, we do things that offend the other person. And when we do, we create an emotional barrier between the two of us.

And so this book is designed to help people understand the necessity of apologizing and forgiving and also how to apologize effectively. And then what forgiveness is and is not. So, and we think this book's going to help create a more positive emotional climate in the workplace. What are some of the number, the initial causes of workplace conflict? I think sometimes it's, sometimes it's just misunderstanding of what another person did or what they said. And so we fell hurt by it because we, we read something into it that was unfair to us.

So sometimes it's not really true. What we read into it was really not there. And that's why it's important. If you've been hurt in a work relationship and you feel like someone's mistreated you or said something about you behind your back and they don't come to you and acknowledge that, you go to them. And so, you know, maybe I'm misunderstanding this and maybe I'm misreading this. but here's what I think happened and here's what I've heard that you said about me or here's what

happened and I'm feeling hurt. I'm feeling actually a little angry about it. And I just want to share it with you because maybe I'm misreading the whole thing. So now they have an opportunity either to explain it to you in a different way that you realize you did read it wrongly or they have a chance to say, you know, you're exactly right. And I was wrong. I should not have done that. and then they apologize to you. And now you can forgive them.

If you don't confront them, if they don't come to you, you don't confront them. You keep it inside and there's a barrier between you and that person. And it's going to be there. It doesn't go away with the passing of time. And if there's another one, there's another barrier. And eventually you get a wall between you and that person. And when you have those kind of things happening in the workplace

and you're on the same team, it's not going to be good for the bottom line. it's not going to be good for the workplace environment. So that's why learning how to deal with these issues and apologizing and forgiving is just essential to having a positive work climate. Let's say, so I'm a person, and I've talked to Jim Collins about this, another great writer, who I choose to lead with trust, and he calls it making the trust wager,

meaning I'm going to inherently trust you at the very beginning. You don't have to earn my trust. You got it. You got it. I'm going to lead with trust. trust. However, if somebody breaks that, it's harder to get it back. And this is something you write about in your latest work. So let's say you're a person who leads with trust. You're not, you believe in people are good and they're going to do the right thing, but then they break it.

And it goes in the wrong direction. What are some ways we can re-earn and rebuild trust if somebody breaks it? Well, I think it starts with their apologizing for what they did or didn't do. and you choosing to forgive them. And forgiveness, again, is not a feeling. Forgiveness is a choice. I'm choosing to lift the penalty. I'm choosing to remove the barrier that this has created between us. But forgiveness does not rebuild trust.

Forgiveness opens the door to the possibility that trust can be regained. And we regain trust by them being trustworthy in the future. So what we're saying is always be ready to forgive the person, but recognize that trust on the second, the second go around, trust has to be earned. That is, they have to be trustworthy in the future. And then you do regain trust. It may be a couple of months. It may be a half a year, but you can come to trust them again. And so there's the healing.

It takes place. But unless there is apology and forgiveness, we're not like to regain trust. because the barrier is there and the barrier has not been removed. How do you handle it when somebody, when you trust somebody and they've, they've messed that up, they've lied, they've been deceit for, they haven't been fully, fully honest. How do you, how do you manage that? I tell you how I deal with it in marriage because that's where I spend the most of my time

is counseling married couples. And let's say a guy has been sexually unfaithful to his wife. And he breaks that relationship off. He apologizes to her. She chooses to forgive him. and they sit in my office, and she says to me in his presence, Dr. Chapman, I've forgiven him, but to be honest, I don't trust him. And I say to her, welcome to the human race, because forgiveness does not restore trust. And then I talk with him. Now, if you want her to trust you again,

you have to be trustworthy. So here are my suggestions. You say to her, honey, my telephone, my phone is yours anytime you want to look at it. My computer is yours anytime you want to look at it. If I tell you I'm going over to Georgia's house to help work on his car, it's fine with me if you want to come over there and see if I'm there. I'm through with deceit. I've hurt you too much. I don't want to hurt you again. You take that approach. Still come to trust you again.

The same principle would apply in a workplace relationship. Obviously, it's a different situation, but the same principle is there is you look for ways to be trustworthy in the future. that setup doesn't seem very fun to me though that you have to I guess if you though if you mess up that bad that that's kind of what you have coming to like I would hope it wouldn't have to be that way from the beginning it's not currently in my life but I guess if you do cross that path of making that that mistake where a lot of people maybe don't come back from it but they're willing to come back that that just doesn't seem like a really fun relationship to me well it's It's not necessarily fun.

It obviously depends on the nature of the offense. Yeah. I mean, you know, sexual unfaithfulness is one thing, you know, but, you know, just speaking harshly to a spouse is something else. I mean, you know, there's totally different. So it's not that none of them will be that stringent. That's about the worst it can be in a marriage relationship. And so in work relationships, many of our conflicts, our misunderstandings, our sense that

we've been treated unfairly are minor. And then others are major. You know, it depends on the nature of it. And so it takes longer to rebuild trust if the nature of the offense is really severe. You've been doing this for decades. I'm curious how have, I guess I'm curious about the problems that arise because you're a problem solver. You help people solve problems. How have the problems changed much over time or are they similar?

I'm wondering even through like COVID where it changed the working styles of people. maybe they're now both working at home for more than a year. Maybe somebody used to travel and now one of them is not traveling anymore. And so in a way that can either bring you together or pull you apart. So I guess it's two part. I'm curious, one, have the issues and problems changed over time and also how was last year an impact on relationships? Yeah, well, let me start with the latter part of that. I think what happened into COVID with what you've just described, couples who had a fairly

healthy marriage really have done pretty well during this time because they've had more time together and they've already, they know how to process life together. But those who were already struggling, it's likely gotten worse because they didn't have patterns on how to solve things. And when you're thrown together, you know, more than normal, it gets even worse. So I wrote, in fact, during the pandemic, I wrote a little book, a little short book called Five Simple ways to strengthen your marriage when you're stuck at home together. But at any rate, because if you weren't getting along in the first place, and now you're together, you need to help.

You need to where to start, you know, and to be honest with you, the place to start in that little book is what we're talking about today. And that is, let's apologize to each other because we've both done things that have been wrong. Let's just say, you know, honey, we're having a rough time here. and I won't apologize for my part in this, and then they have a chance to apologize. Now you've kind of cleared the deck, you know,

and then you can do the love language thing and start that and then learn how to solve conflicts without arguing, that sort of thing. But anyway, I think in the workplace relationships, again, you're right. There's different dynamic now. More people are working at home and we're not working before, so there's not that day-to-day contact in the workplace.

And then the whole technology thing has added to the possibility of misunderstandings. You know, you read something, for example, on some online, you know, platform about you. The person makes a negative comment about you. And you're thinking, man, what are they talking about? Why did they do that? You know? And so, again, if they don't come to you, you go to them. but you go in a kind way acknowledging that maybe you're misreading this,

maybe you're misunderstanding this, but you just want them to know that when they read that, they were very hurt and really, to be honest with you, I'm angry. And I just want to know how you view this and how you feel about this. You take that approach, the person's far more likely to be responsive and not just get into an argument. That's not the point. Getting into an argument's not going to help.

But if you go in a kind way, and confront them with your perception of what's happened, they're far more likely to apologize to you and say, I'm going to take that down. I should never have done that. And now, you know, you can choose to forgive them, and now the relationship can go forward. So I think the Internet with all the various platforms

have opened up more possibilities for misunderstanding and conflicts in the workplace. I'm curious, always as I bring it back to the person, because I'm fascinated by your story and what you've done. Are you a confrontational person? Are you okay with saying, hey, I had to go confront this person

because this isn't right. How do you approach that? It doesn't come natural for me. Yeah. But I've learned through the years that if I don't take the initiative, you know, ideally they would take the initiative. They would come to me, you know, that's ideal.

But if they don't, I have learned how to go to them and do essentially what I've just said because it doesn't come natural for me. And I don't know that it comes natural really for anybody. Most of the time, if we're hurt, if we do anything, we're going to shoot them. They sawed us, we're going to shoot them. That's what's happening in our culture today. I mean, we're at war with each other. If somebody disagrees with us, we do everything we can to put them down, make them lose their job, you make them look bad.

That doesn't help anything. It just makes things worse. But if you lovingly and kindly confront a person, again, they're far more likely to hear what you're saying, to hear your heart, and you can resolve the issue. So this is even more important than ever, I think, in work relationships. I'm also curious about your production, meaning you are a prolific producer of useful content, whether they're assessments, books, speaking videos here on a podcast. What is your process to produce such useful content that helps people? Well, right, I look back on my life and I wonder how I did all these things, how I wrote all these books, because I've written over 50, 50 books. And, but, you know, my pattern in terms of writing books has been one day a week.

I just take for writing. Just one day a week. Not every day. Not every day. No, because the bulk of my time through the years, I've spent counseling and working with people. But that's the other part of it is that my writing grows out of my experience in the counseling room. and working with people with real problems. So when I write, I'm not writing out of the ivory tower.

I'm writing out of the trenches with people. And the illustrations I use are real illustrations. I don't use people's real names, obviously, but they're real illustrations. And I think people identify with real life. And so if I had not been counseling through all these years, I don't think I would have written books at all, perhaps. I mean, I didn't set out to be an author. the author and the book writing was an overflow of what was happening in the counseling office.

So that's kind of been my journey. I'm a huge believer in coaching in all parts of life. I mean, I grew up playing sports. And regardless of how good you were, the best of the best had usually great coaches around them. And they yearned for that feedback to get better. But some weird thing happens when we get older, it seems like that it almost is like a weakness if you reach out to somebody. like you for as a guide or to talk to. And I think, I think that stigma is going away a little bit,

but it should be completely erased. What do you think about being proactive? Like, let's say you have a great marriage, a great relationship. Everyone's got obviously their stuff. But for the most part, it's really good. Those people should be meeting with people like you just the same as anybody else. Wouldn't you say? I think so. I think we, I think all of us are in a process of learning. and we don't we don't ever get old enough that we can't learn something. You know, I still go to conferences that are led by other people, and I sit there and take notes.

And I had a young man say to me some time ago. He said, man, I looked over there to you and you were taking notes on what this guy was saying. He said, at your age and all the children, why are you taking notes? And I said,

man, I want to keep learning, you know, and my philosophy has always been, if I go to a lecture, and I hear one thing that I can go home and change a little bit, make a tweak in my life, then it was worth my going. So if we have that concept that we're always learning, and we are, we're either getting better

or getting worse every single day. We don't remain the same. And so I think that concept that we want to keep learning, and for example, to married couples, I suggest at the end of my marriage seminars, I give a Saturday all day seminar around the country several times a year. and two things at the end, I can encourage them to do the rest of their life. Read one book on marriage

and discuss it every year the rest of your life. And I describe what that means. You read a chapter, each of you read the chapter and then sit out and share with each other. One thing you learned in that chapter that you think might help us have a better relationship. So read and discuss one book a year on marriage and then once a year go to a marriage enrichment event.

it can be, you know, like a seminar like I do in our conference or maybe something at your church where there's a 12-week class or something on marriage. You go to something every year on marriage. So you're getting input from an outsider, you know, into your life. And chances are if you do those two things, you're going to have a growing marriage. And then the third thing, of course, which I don't always share, but would be reach out for counseling or coaching, especially if you've got one issue in life. You've got a pretty good relationship.

but one thing really you hadn't quite found out how to solve it, then reach out for help. And I do think what you said earlier is true. The stigma of going for counseling or coaching has lessened over the last 30 or 40 years because I think people are realizing, you know, listen, everybody needs help. I don't care who we are. We've all got some things that we haven't quite solved yet. And so reaching out for help in that manner.

It doesn't have to be long-term counseling, sometimes two or three sessions, you know, with the other person. It's going to give you what you need to. make the changes that need to be made. I think what you said is just being really intentional about putting effort into the relationship and putting effort into saying I'm committed, not just the words, but I'm actually doing the work. I'm reading the book. We're going to teach each other or share what's been useful to me that I think could be helpful. I think that intentionality is sometimes what goes away because you have kids and you got all the sports and we become Uber drivers for the kids.

you're and everybody's haphazard. I remember we were having a conversation actually about your book at a workshop I was running and this this really nice woman in the front row raised her hand and she's like, you know what? One thing that that's helped us over the past year and I was kind of sitting there, I wonder what she's going to say. She goes, 15 minutes, 15 minutes. I said, what do you mean? What do you mean? And she goes, every night we are committed to 15 minutes to talk about us, not about the kids, not about the logistics, not about the schedule, not about what we're doing. It's 15 minutes about us. It's not a long time, but it is a commitment. And if, and she said, you would be surprised. If you don't make the commitment, you could go many, many days without having any

conversations about anything other than where do the kids need to go. What do we need to do? Where do we need to be? What's going on? Like logistics. And I thought, what an interesting point. And she's like, it really has made a huge difference just to 15 minutes. Absolutely. Absolutely. I encourage couples to have a 15 minute or whatever, you know, just but a brief time at least in which they sit down and listen to each other. You know, we sometimes say sit down and talk, but as I sit down and listen, obviously there's going to have to be talking, but let's focus on hearing what the other person is saying.

You're a professional listener. You have to be to be excellent at what you do, as well as to kind of take it in and then write about it. What are some of the keys to us being better listeners? So I think a lot of us mess this up. Yeah, I don't think we're trained to listen in our culture. in fact, one research project indicated that in a conflict situation, the average person will listen to the other person for 17 seconds before they interrupt and say, well, that's not right. Well, that's not right.

They get into an argument. So learning to listen. One of the things that I encourage people to do is when you've got something that's rather conflict, rather than just start talking in a normal way, take turns talking. one of them takes five minutes and shares their perspective on this situation. And then you take five minutes and share your perspective. And you can have as many turns as you're like, but you don't interrupt each other. You just agree up front. We're not going to interrupt each other.

And while the other person is talking, we're going to focus on listening, not getting our guns ready to shoot them down, but trying to understand what they're saying and what they're feeling. so that when you get through at the end, you can ask questions of each other, you know, to clarify, but honestly then you can honestly say, you know, here,

I hear what you're saying, and I can see how that makes sense, you know. And so now you're not enemies. Now you've understood the other person. You see how they could feel what they feel. And now you can focus on how can we solve the problem. I had a, I love that.

I had an improv trainer I worked with for this specific reason because in improv, you don't know what they're going to say and you have to build. Yes, and is kind of how that works. And I urge people to do that to go to some sort of improv training if you want to become a better listener because you literally can't perform if you don't listen all the way to the end of what they're saying. And I've found that has carried over into other relationships, whether it's recording a podcast or a relationship with your spouse, is listening all the way to the end and committing to that because you, You can't go when that other person is going because it's part of the improv show.

And I think that's been a big help when it comes to listening as well because we've all got to continually work on this. Yeah, absolutely. I think we're not by nature good listeners. We have to learn how to listen. And it's a choice. The reason I want to listen is I want to understand what this other person's thinking and feeling. Because I can't have even a helpful response if I don't first understand what they're saying. and what they're feeling.

One final question, two-parter, Dr. Chapman. So I'm really a big on studying and focusing on excellence, being an excellent leader at work, being an excellent leader at home, being an excellent partner. I'm curious from all of the people you've worked with, from the study, you're studying still, you're learning constantly. Let's do two parts. What have you found to be some of the commonalities of somebody who is an excellent leader? we're going to start at work and then end at home,

who is an excellent leader at work? I think at the very base of what makes a person an excellent leader is that they have a sense of humility. They don't feel like they know everything. They don't come across as a dictator. They're open to learning and they're asking questions of the people that work with them and for them. of share your ideas here.

Let's think together on what would be the best thing, how we could improve this situation. To me, that attitude and that approach is what makes a person an excellent leader. How about at home or actually more specifically as a partner, as a partner with somebody else who is, whether they're raising a family, they're living together at home, what have you found to be the commonalities,

the common traits and behaviors of those people who are excellent partners. I think that the very root is an attitude of love. And I say an attitude, not a feeling. You know, the in love experience is an emotional thing. And you don't ask for it. It just happens. But it has an average lifespan of two years in marriage.

We come down off the high. So it's an attitude of love. And by that I mean, it's the attitude that you're saying to yourself and you're approaching that relationship with the attitude, I want to do everything I can to enrich your life, to help you become the person you want to become. And anything I can do that's going to help you, then that's what I want to do. You hit two people who have that attitude toward each other, you're going to build a really good relationship. Yeah. That's at the very heart of what makes marriage work or any close relationship work is the attitude of love.

I sometimes say that love is the most important word in the English language and the most confusing word. Why is it confusing? We use the word love in a thousand ways. You know, we say, I love hot dogs. I love barbecue. I love the mountains. I love the beach. I love my dog.

I love my new car. And then we say to a special someone, I love you. And what is that supposed to mean? Isn't it cool when you see a couple, though, or you can tell they genuinely are so happy for the other person when something. go as well. I think that's the coolest feeling when you can feel the genuine happiness from them when something has gone well for you as well as they're there for you when it goes the other way. But I think like, and I love seeing that in other people when you just look in their eye and like, man, he is so happy for her and what she's accomplished.

I think that's like that's, that to me is the epitome of what it's all about. Yeah, it's one of life's greatest satisfaction is helping other people reach their goal, you know, and their potential. It's satisfying to the person who's doing that. Yeah, I love it. Well, Dr. Chapman, I really appreciate your time. I know we got to run, but I certainly would tell people, first of all, do your, do the love language assessment.

It'll be in the show notes. You can go do that as well as in read this newest book called Making Things Right at Work, Increased teamwork, Resolve, Conflict, and Build Trust. I've been an admirer and a fan of your work for many years. You've helped me in my relationship. So I'm just want to say thank you so much. It was really cool to get a chance to talk directly with you. I can't even imagine the people would get to be your actual, like sit and sit on your couch and talk to you.

That'd be the coolest thing ever as far as that. How does one actually get an appointment with Dr. Gary Chapman to be their counselor? How does it? Well, you know, at this doctor, I'm not doing long term counseling anymore. I've done that for 45 years. But I'm seeing people in for crisis counseling now, just, you know, once or twice. and then I get them to the right person that they need to go to.

Gotcha, gotcha, man. Well, awesome. It's great to meet you. I really appreciate being here. I'd certainly love to continue this dialogue as we both progress, man. Well, thank you, Ryan. You keep up the good work. Thank you.

Great being with you. The question, what is your love language, has been posed to me in a wide variety of environments, whether it's leadership off-sites, random interviews, or meeting with friends. This is a topic that has come up so much. It was really cool to have the opportunity to speak with the guy who created it. And I'd urge you to take your love language assessment if you haven't done so. It'll be linked in the show notes at learning leader.com.

I hope you enjoy this one as much as I did a few takeaways from my notes. Excellence at work and at home. When I asked him about this, he said at work, humility, asking questions and a mindset of always learning. Remember he told the story when he goes to these conferences and he is diligently taking notes trying to learn. And he's been doing this for a very long time. Then at home, an attitude of love. It's not a feeling. The in love feeling wears off. He said after about two years, it's an attitude to love someone to say, I want to do anything I can to enrich your life.

I love that thought process and the intention behind it. Then keys to being a better listener. Start with the intention to understand their perspective. Most people interrupt within 17 seconds. Don't do that. Do not interrupt other people. Wait until they are completely done speaking. And I would encourage you to take an improv class that deals with listing to help

you get better at this. Something I've done and certainly helped. And then how to earn back trust. Gary said forgiveness is not a feeling. It's a choice. You have to make the choice to first forgive someone. I thought that was a good perspective on all this. Once again, I hope you found this useful. And I am so grateful that you continue to spread the message and telling a friend or two, Hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader Show with Dr. Gary Chapman. He'll help you become a more effective leader. And because you continue to do that and you continue to write reviews and rate the show, hopefully five stars on Apple Podcasts, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis.

And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to soon. Can we?