The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 468 - Vanessa Van Edwards - The Secret Language To Charismatic Communication (Cues)

Episode Date: April 17, 2022

Text Hawk to 66866 for "Mindful Monday." A carefully curated email you'll receive each Monday to help you start your week off right. Full shownotes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12    https://twitter.com/RyanHawk12 Vanessa Van Edwards is the Lead Investigator at Science of People. She is the bestselling author of Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People, translated into 16 languages. More than 50 million people watch her engaging YouTube tutorials and TEDx Talk. Vanessa works with entrepreneurs, growing businesses, and trillion-dollar companies; and has been featured on CNN, BBC, CBS Mornings, Fast Company, Inc. Magazine, USA Today, Entrepreneur Magazine, The Today Show, and many more. Her latest book is called Cues: Master The Secret Language of Charismatic Communication. Notes: Cues - It's about warmth and competence. Can I trust you? Can I rely on you? – How are you showing others warmth and competence? Dr. Kofi Essel - His non-verbal protocol for warmth: Fronting - He angles his toes, torso, and head towards the person. Be in alignment with the patient. Non-Verbal bridges - Slowly warm someone up. Lean in. In your 1 on 1 meetings, remove all barriers between you and the person. Show them 100% focus. If you see someone gazing over your head, look where they're looking. It will help make them aware of what they're doing. Question Inflection - From the Ring founder when he pitched on Shark Tank. This is something that a lot of us mess up. When stating a fact, SAY IT, don't ask it. The 4 modes of communication: Nonverbal Verbal - Syntax Vocal Imagery Touch – A group of researchers at UC Berkeley watched the first 3 games of the NBA finals in the 2008-2009 season and counted every single time players were seen touching on camera. They found the team that touched the most, won the most games.    Touches = higher trust Speed dating research – Followed 144-speed dates and found that postural expansiveness was the most romantically appealing trait. Participants who took up more space were 76% more likely to be chosen for future dates. Want to show someone they matter? That you're listening? Turning toward is tuning in. Zoom Calls – How do we best approach them? - Look into the camera so the other person feels you are looking them in the eye. Disney teaches all of their employees (from janitors to princesses) specific nonverbal cues to use with guests. And they all embody the pinnacle of warmth… "Being a highlighter is about constantly searching for the good in people. When you tell people they are good, they become better. When you search for what's good, you feel great." "When you try to be the same as everyone else, it's boring. When you try to fit into a mold, you become forgettable. When you try to be "normal," you become dull. Just be yourself, because no one is like you. If you're a little weird, own it. The right people will like you for it." "Vulnerability is sexy—it shows we are relatable, honest, and real. That is attractive. And the science proves it: "A blunder tends to humanize him and, consequently, increases his attractiveness." "Humans are purpose-driven creatures. We want to believe there are reasons behind everything we do. Before leaders can inspire action, they have to get emotional buy-in. When we explain the motivations behind a goal, it allows listeners to feel partial ownership of that goal."

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book to get your free copy today. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text, Hawk to 66866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email from me each show. Monday morning to help you start your week off right. You'll also receive details about how my new book,

The Pursuit of Excellence, will help you become a more effective leader. Text, Hawk to 66866. Now on to tonight's feature leader. A great one. Vanessa Van Edwards, bestselling author of Captivate the Science of succeeding with people. Her TED Talks and YouTube tutorials have been viewed more than 50 million times. She's been featured on CNN, the BBC, and the Today Show, among many others. Her latest book is blowing up right now. Just hit the bestseller list. It's called Q's Master, the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication. During this conversation we discuss how to run better one-on-one with the people who report to you. And then the mistakes made on Shark Tank by a founder that eventually sold his business for over a billion dollars

and what we can learn from the mistakes he made. And then how to quickly connect with someone your meeting for the first time. This conversation is packed with compelling stories and useful takeaways for you to implement right now. ladies and gentlemen, it's a great one. Vanessa Van Edwards. Vanessa, welcome back to the Learning Leader Show. Welcome. Oh, thanks so much for having me. Charisma's kind of weird in that you kind of look at someone and say they've got it and sometimes they don't. I specifically think my background's in sports and as a quarterback, they say that certain guys have this kind of it quality, this it factor. I think of, I'm from Ohio, so I'm a big fan of Joe Burrough.

he's a quarterback of the Bengals. He led them to the Super Bowl. Everyone's like, he's just got it. And they're not even sure what that means. So when you think of charisma or it, that it factor of a leader, what is that? How do you deconstruct that? Yes. So it's real. There is an it factor. You're not making that up. And the interesting thing about this, before I even define it, because we are going to define it. We're going to break it down to a formula. Before I even define it, I have some good news, which is it can be learned. And this is something that. for me, I also recognized people who had that it factor, and I knew I did not have it. That was something I knew from a very, very young age. I'm a recovering awkward person. I could see these, very, very recovering. I could see these people who had it. And I thought, well, charisma is an innate trait. You're either born with it or you're not.

So here's the good news is you absolutely can learn it. And there is a section of the population that they are born with it. they kind of naturally have it. That's a very small percent, but most highly charismatic people have learned it and have cultivated it. So what is it? Researchers from Princeton University did a groundbreaking study where they found that when we are judging people,

when we're making our impressions of others, it's actually only comes down to two traits, warmth and competence. And the reason why these traits are more important than all other traits, these two traits make up 82% of our judgments of others. 82% now. That's incredible. Right. When you think about meeting people, you're like, oh, I want them to be trustworthy and powerful and funny and attractive and smart. You know, we can make a list of a hundred, but actually these two that matter why. When we first meet someone,

we are very quickly trying to answer two basic questions. Can I trust you? And can I rely on you? Because as humans, those are the things that, one, keep us safe. So trust. Am I safe? Do you have good intentions? Second, can I rely on you? Are you going to give me good intel, good information that I can actually use to keep myself safe and productive and happy? So warmth, people who are highly charismatic, they first, and it is actually chronological, they first signal high trust, high likability, high friendliness. And then very next, they signal high competence, high power, memorability, capability, efficiency. We love to be around people who are both warm and competent because they make us feel, I can trust and rely on you, which we love. And that is that it factor.

Wow. Okay. How do we learn to become warmer? And it sounds weird to even say this, but more competent about whatever it is that we're doing. How can we learn these two most important traits, it seems like, in order to have the it factor or have the charisma, which from a leadership perspective, I think if you're trying to gain followers or even help other people become leaders, you have to have it. So how do we do this? Okay. So first we have to talk about something very difficult. And this is difficult, which is can you fake warmth?

Can you fake competence? Right. So yes, you can fake it. And there are people, these are the con artists who learn the cues of warmth and competence. And they fake, they make it. The problem is that they can only get so far. So I tried to be, this was my biggest worry with writing this book. And it actually gave me tremendous writer's block. Oh my gosh, the worst writer's block when I was in November of 2021 and I

was in like the final draft. And my biggest concern was what if people use this for evil and not good? And so I am going to assume positive intention. I'm going to assume that people listening to this have genuine warmth and competence that you know your stuff and that you have good intention. because you can fake it to make it, but A, that's exhausting and only last so long. So if you have genuine warmth and competence, and the most important way that I want to share this work is with people who have really good ideas but don't know how to share them. That's the best way to think about this. The way that we learn it is we master our cues.

My whole adventure started 17 years ago when I noticed that highly charismatic people, it didn't matter if they were politicians, businessmen, celebrities, female leaders. It didn't matter what industry they were from. They were all using this strikingly similar set of cues. And I remember 17 years ago watching a TED talk. Actually, there was no TED Talks back then. I think it was an ink interview and then a Larry King interview and then a People magazine interview and going, they all did the same thing. And that's when I started to code all of these cues. A queue is a social signal that we send to each other. And there are four different modes of communication for cues to make it easy for us to think about these. So the first

one is nonverbal. Our body language, our gestures, our facial expressions, our posture, even how we move through the world, nonverbal. Second is verbal, the words we use. And also our syntax, how we use our words. Third is vocal. And this is the one that I think is most often forgotten. So that's our volume, our pace, our cadence, our syntax, our accent. All of those things are the vocal aspect. And the last one, the smallest is imagery. That's the colors we wear, the ornaments we wear, our accessories, even the props behind us, what are what's in our Zoom backgrounds, what we're holding in a profile picture, the kinds of clothes we wear. So those four modes of cues are how we diagnose or very quickly assess someone's warmth and competence.

So let's pause for a second and get personal. When you see my background, that I'm highlighting my two books and a bunch of other books and a globe and some other things. A helmet I got from a company to speak. Like, what was your initial, like the blink-like Malcolm Gladroll reaction when we first connected on Zoom? Absolutely. High competence. So first, a lot of books and specifically framed books. So that shoots up your competence cues right off the bat.

I noticed a couple of other specific props, which are also a little bit more high in the competence range. good lighting, but overall high competence, right? So there's nothing that I immediately can grasp in your background that I'm like, oh, relatability. And that's something for you to keep in mind is, is there something that you can put in your background that will make people be like, oh, me too.

Now, most people don't have a book, right? So they think, oh, that's impressive. This is the balance. Here's the, we're getting down into it, which I'm so glad you asked this question is, competence without warmth, leaves people feeling suspicious.

This is directly from the research. So Dr. Susan Fisk, she identified what happens with very smart, impressive people is they come at you with all their smarts, right? They have their accolades and their degrees and their successes and their accomplishments. And the more successful someone gets, sometimes the less relatable they become. And that's why you have very smart people who they hear, oh, I'm intimidated by that person, or that person is cold. or I don't know, I just can't read her.

It's because what's happening is they're sending so many competence cues that I feel of distance. Now, I know you a little bit, right? We've had interaction together. So I already have relatability with you. But if someone were to just pop on video and see your background, I think they might get lots of competence. They would know you were smart and very capable. Look how many books you've read. Look how many books you've written.

But they might wonder, can I trust him? Now, I do like the yellow rubber duct. but I can't read it. What is it? That's a Seth Godin book. Oh my goodness. You took a hundred, you printed 100 of those huge thick ones. Yeah, this might work. That's a little bit of a warmth cue because it's like it's a rubber ducky. But I would think about what warmth cues upon first impression could you immediately add to your background. Now, today I'm all white, right? Which means it sort of like leaves me neutral a little bit. So I knew that my imagery today is super bland. And the reason for that kind of a funny inside story is later today I'm teaching a class

at Harvard. I thought, what do I want my cues to be in my impression at Harvard? And I thought, I want to go mute so I can let my content speak for itself. So I have a white background. I have a very boring navy blue v-neck shirt on, almost no jewelry and very, you know, simple makeup. I did that on purpose. I wanted to let my content speak for myself. So all these cues, they add up to how people treat you. Wow. I think that the cues you send to others tell them how they should treat you. Your background tells me I should treat you with high competence and respect. I'm probably not going to do much chit chat with you right off the bat because I see all those competence cues. Huh. Got you. You're making me in my head spinning, which is great. That's why I love these conversations

that make me think about this. Does this get exhausting for you to think about like how you're show, because now you're, you've written multiple bestselling books on, you know, body language and how to captivate people and cues. I could imagine, is it a lot of pressure? I mean, you have to feel like, oh my God, they're going to be judging how I look, the way I shake my hands, the way I walk into the room, the way I touch my fate. I mean, like everything. Does that get kind of potentially exhausting for you? So confession is, it's actually easier. And I know that sounds crazy, but as a erotic awkward person. Getting to know me real well as a neurotic awkward person. Actually, it makes me feel like I can be myself. And I know that's crazy, but I don't process social information like most people do. So I,

I'm not very good at reading people naturally. I'm not naturally charismatic. And so for many years, I was hiding my awkwardness. Right. So I was hiding the fact that I didn't understand. I couldn't process social information very well. And also, I was hiding the fact that I had to, to create a system for interacting with people. That's the only way I know how. So I know that in the first few seconds of a video, I should smile, I should wave, hello, I should use an up tone of voice and an up facial expression and use a positive greeting. That formula makes me feel so calm because what happened before is I didn't know what to do.

So I would hop on a video and I'd be like, oh, can you? I don't know, am I here? I would be so awkward because I didn't have this formula. So in a weird way, one, it makes me feel more calm that I know what to do. I have a blueprint for all of my interactions. And second, I kind of like being so transparent saying I'm in this boring blue shirt because I want you to focus on my content. I hold up my hand like this and I wave hello at the beginning of a video call because

I want you to know that I'm trustworthy and I have good intentions. So I almost feel like for and cap. My first book, the opening line of that book was I'm a recovering awkward person because I just wanted to get it out. With cues, it was like this giant sense of relief to tell people, hey, this is how I socially survive. You've asked me over years, you know, how did you get the book dealer? How do you make it on stage? And I'd be like, I have a blueprint of how I work the room and formulas. And people would be like, what? And now I can just give it to people. And it's like, we're, We're all speaking the same language. And I think for folks who are listening, if you've ever felt overestimated, sorry, underestimated and you wish you were overestimated, people don't give you enough credit for the ideas you have. If you ever feel like you cannot get on the same page with people, if you wish that you had a shared value system with the people in your life,

I think Q's is sort of a secret way to go about it. These days, it's really hard to talk about values in terms of what do you believe? What do I believe? That's a really big discussion. But saying, hey, I want to make sure that everyone who I work with and everyone I'm friends with trusts me and knows that I have good intention. And I want to share my ideas in a way that makes them super digestible. Here's how I want to do it. I'm going to use this queue and this queue and this queue.

Do you feel like, though, for the person who isn't naturally good at this? Because some of the people just naturally seemed like, I don't know, remember there's all these stories about Bill Clinton, how he made you feel like you're the only person in the room, even though he's the most powerful. person in the world at those times and the way he look into your eyes and I'm sure his cues are amazing. But when you say the word formula, some might perceive that is, is she being authentic? Is she being real? If she's got to follow a specific formula for how to start a Zoom call, is this authentically her? Like, what is Vanessa like when she's lounging on the couch with her family watching Netflix just chilling? Like, is it a different person? Like, how do I know I'm authentically getting Vanessa when she's got this formula to show up for a meeting,

a Zoom call, whatever it may be. Remember, it's super authentic if you have good intention. And this is our assumption, right? So like my intention for this entire hour is deliver amazing content, try to be as honest and open as possible, and try to share this signs in a way that people get. So the formula is just a faster way for me to get to my intention. So if you have good intention, it's very authentic. In fact, it's sort of in a weird way.

I think a lot of the times really brilliant inventors or really technical entrepreneurs or brilliant graphic designers or computer programmers, a lot of the times it's inauthentic when they feel like they have to make chit chat that isn't comfortable for them when all they want to do is dive into their ideas. I would rather them use a formula to get through that first impression so they can get right to the meat of the heart of their ideas. That's my definition about the authentic. I'm glad. I'm glad you said that. That really made me rethink that quickly. So I appreciate that. When you are, now that we're kind of getting back out there and there are not like networking events, but you know where you go and you meet people and you see them in person, are those situations you enjoy? Do you like those? Do you like meeting new people at events where maybe they don't know you? I mean, for the ones who already know you, it's a little easier I know. But for the ones who don't, like do you like those situations? So now I have begun to like them because I am being really forthright with my intention. Again, that's my definition of authenticity is like, you show up and you're like, here's my intention,

I'm going to say it. So I'll give you an example. So we've kind of been alone for two years. And I was invited to this kind of muckety-muck event a couple weeks ago. And this was right after I started to like go out into the world. And it was a lot of big names. And it's this program they're called Beyond Labels, which is basically. basically dinners with really important people talking about interesting issues. And I don't consider

myself an important person. So I was sort of surprised to get the invite. But I was like, okay, sure. You know, maybe if they're looking for YouTubers. I don't know. So I show up and I am nervous. I am very nervous. I am worried about having been out in a while. I'm also just like, I know I'm in a room with very, very smart people in Austin. And so I get there. And the very first thing they have us is stand in a big circle. There's about 25 of us and introduce ourselves. And I am not joking. The center starts and like, here are the introductions before me. I'm curing cancer.

I developed an AI technology that will save the planet. I am fixing climate change. I am a billionaire. It was like that. Okay. And it's like coming to me and I'm just like, who. And so I decide to be as open as possible. And I say, my name is Vanessa.

and I'm a recovering awkward person. And the whole room laughs, right, which is great. They're sort of like this release of pressure. And I'm like, I write books about communication for really smart, awkward people. If you're an awkward person and you would like a conversational break, come chat with me. I have great conversation starters at the ready. And first of all, I felt very, my nerves went away, right? Like my nerves immediately went away.

And, you know, warmth and competence is interesting because warmth is also vulnerability. So warmth is sharing truth, is being vulnerable. That is a passive warmth. And competence is being directive. So I was able to create what I think is an authentic, warm, and competent instruction, which is a little bit of vulnerability. And if you are an awkward person, come and talk to me. I have conversations to others that are going to help us.

And it was incredible because the rest of the event was a delight. It was so fun. Every awkward person in the room came over. We were laughing. We were being awkward together. I pulled flashcards out of my purse because that was okay because I had stated that I was going to do that. And I had people pick, you know, pick a card, any card, don't show me. Like I had them pick a coffee sugar and we did them.

And it was like all the awkward people, we found our little corner of the room. And I made great friends who I've seen many times since that dinner. And so I share that story because I think we think about people with an it factor, we think they have to be perfect. right we think they have to have the perfect introduction that's super impressive but also funny you know they have to say i'm a billionaire and i'm solving climate change and i have five degrees and i'm changing the world and actually no everyone was super intimidated by those people and so it's not i think it being charismatic is not about being perfect it's actually about figuring out your authentic warmth and competence, whatever that means to you. And in the book, my whole goal is trying to

guide you through 96 cues that are options for you. When I was most awkward, I felt like I had no options. I felt like I didn't know what to say at the start of video call. I didn't know how to open an email. I didn't know how to write emails that got opened. And so there are 96 different cues. You choose the ones that work for you. It's like a recipe, right? No way are you going to use all 96. In fact, I think now that people have been reading it, the I think most people have like 30 or 40 they use regularly. They have like 20. They're trying on and they kind of are excited about.

And the rest are like not for me. Great. Like then you get to make your own charisma recipe. That warmth part is so big and there's almost nothing better than when you tell a bit of a joke and get a good, good pop from the crowd. I mean, how good does that feel? Like you're like, you know what I'm giving a speech and if they laugh at a part where even if you don't mean it to be funny, it's like, oh my gosh, I am rolling now. I mean, it's such a good feeling when you get a good pop from the crowd, especially if you're not a stand-up comedian, and all of a sudden you get like a laugh like one.

It's the best, isn't it? So good. I mean, totally transparently. So I know that humor, so vulnerability is an aspect of warmth. Humor is also an aspect of warmth, right? Like, anytime someone's laughing, that's a warm moment, especially if you're laughing together, mutual laughing is a great one of the fastest ways, right? Like mutual laugh or the best ways to bond.

Knowing this, I teach about science, right? Like, my brand is called science of people. It's a super high competent brand. And so I hired comedians and I've hired many comedians over the course of my career to say, can you help me warm this up? Really? Yes. Wow.

Absolutely because I could not add stories are warm as well. I had a couple stories in there. I had a couple vulnerability moments, but it was still too competent. If I have a 60 minute keynote and everyone should think of their presentations as warm and competent. In my slides, I count the number of competent slides I have. and I count the number of warm slides that they have. And I try to make them to be an exact match unless I know I'm speaking to a group of engineers. Engineers typically lean a little higher incompetence.

So I will add more. I can get away with more competent slides. Or if I'm speaking to a casual group, I will add more warm slides and remove some of the competent slides. Not because that's a group that isn't competent, just because I'm trying to speak their language. Like it's a respect that I know they will appreciate. So hiring comedians,

we literally measure this. I sent my keynote. And we counted the number of laugh moments, like literally counted. Like there was a laugh. There was a laugh. And I said, I want to triple them. I want to triple them. And so I worked with comedy coaches to help me get more laughs, not because I need to be

seen as funny, although it's great to get that laugh. Because I know that if I add a laughter moment right before I deliver an impactful message, people are more likely to believe the impactful message. The research literally shows this. competence without warmth leaves us feeling suspicious. So if I can get someone open mouth laughing, I know that whatever behavior change I'm trying to inspire is more likely to stick in the next five minutes. So good. Okay. Chapter three is called the body language of leaders. I immediately jump to that chapter. By the way, I want to hit the first intro too because you talk about Shark Tank,

which is a show I watch almost every episode. So we're going to hit Shark Tank. So I'll tease that for a second, but we're going to hold that. But know that we'll come back to the Shark Tank story of the guy who created Ring. Amazing story. So anyway, I'm going to mispronounce his name, probably Kofi-Sel. Isle, how do you say, Dr. Kofi-Sel? Dr. Kofi-Sel. Okay, so you met him. You're both studying at Emory, and he talked about how he connects with people as he's becoming, like, they're a new patient of his, specifically with kids and with parents in the room. Can you share, this is part of the body language of leaders. I mean, this podcast is packed full of leaders who are listening, how he does this so well to connect with his first time patients.

Okay. So there's a reason I picked Dr. Essel. He's a doctor. And this is important. My competence, yeah. Yes. I picked a doctor because when we think about picking a doctor, we think about competence, right? where we think about someone who went to a good medical school,

who did well on their tests, who knows their stuff. We often don't think as much about warmth. Yet, research has proven that even doctors who, we say, I only care about a smart doctor, we may give verbal, no, actually their warmth is just important. So Dr. Eswell, who's off the charts and smarts,

he had to create a nonverbal protocol for warmth because he knew, and he knows that as soon as the kind of, you know, if he's examining a patient, that's very high competence and it's very intimate. So he has a step-by-step process he's developed for himself starting in the waiting room, getting them all the way into his office to try to create warm moments before they get into whatever they're going to say because he found that if he was able to create warmth moments, peppered with competence, they were more likely to take his recommendations. They were more likely to actually take the medication they wanted to take. They were more actually to take care of their health in the way that he was hoping they would do it.

So, for example, a couple of things he does that are not intuitive that we might do accidentally, but are extremely purposeful. One is he very purposely engages in what's called fronting. So fronting is when we angle our toes, torso, and head toward the person we're speaking with. This is the one benefit of video calls, actually, is typically we. We are in fronting position, right? Like, we're aligned right now. Even though we're not in the same room, our toes and our legs and our torso and our

head are on the same angle. One of the worst things that I see, a little mistake, by the way, for video calls is I'll see people who have the camera over here. So have you noticed that? Oh, yeah. The camera will be here and they'll be like typing over here and then they'll be like, uh-huh, and they'll look over their shoulder. So one is even on video call, this matters.

But what Dr. S will do is from the moment they enter the room, he angles his own body. He swiveles his stool. he angles a body to always be in alignment with the person he's speaking with. So when that's the child, so he has, he's a pediatrician. So with his child, he's angling towards a child. And this is really crucial for building trust with children because children are often ignored, right? They're often sort of, you know, they look, someone looks down upon them and says, you know, what do you think?

Okay, good. But we very rarely will turn our entire body towards a child. And then when each parent is speaking, he angles his entire body towards them. That is a very subtle way of showing. respect. It's also an important part of our, helping our brain to bond. Why? Our brain likes to see as much of the other person's body as possible. When we are physically angled towards each other, it's our brain's way of saying, oh, we're physically aligned. I guess we better emotionally align. It's also triggers a whole loop with mirroring, right, like copying each other, respecting each other,

making better eye contact, seeing facial expression. So it creates a loop. So first he, he, he fronts almost the entire time. He even does this while he's taking notes on his computer. So he's literally trying to take notes on his computer. What he will do is he will put the computer off to the side and he'll type off to the side but keep his entire body angled towards the patient. He said that he has noticed that makes a fundamental difference in the amount of time that patients talk to him. So they are more likely to dig deep and tell them things he needs to know if he's actually angled towards them. So fronting is something he does. He also, there's a lot of what I call nonverbal bridges. So nonverbal bridges are these moments, these cues that we do to slowly warm up

someone from a warmth perspective. So in a doctor setting, he's about to touch a patient, right? He's about to like feel their heartbeat and, you know, feel their chest and feel behind their ears. That's very intimate. Going from six feet away all the way to an exam is a lot. And This also happens in person where you got to be talking to someone across a coffee table or a boardroom table and then you never really quite feel like you connect. It's actually a proxemic issue is that you're not getting close enough. So what Dr. Esso will do is he'll lean in when he wants to really emphasize something, which immediately closes the amount of space between him and the other person.

And the prefrontal cortex also activates. So a lean is one of the fastest ways. So if you want to try this, wherever you are listening right now, sitting or standing, just lean in a couple inches. When you do that, it actually activates a specific part of your brain that's motivational, that's action-oriented. The reason for this is because our senses, to smell it better, hear it better, taste it better, touch it more, you have to lean in.

It's like a pre-activation mode. And so when we even lean in interaction, it helps activate that part of our brain that wants to take action. It closes the spatial distance and also signifies, I'm sorry. super into you. Like, I want to take action. So all those little things, you know, I, if you're a golfer, if anyone's a golfer, you know, these cues are small, but they make a massive impact on your game. Just like changing micro adjustments in your swing, it's the same exact thing with cues. One small one in an office setting that I remember doing, I still do this, when having a one-on-one

with someone, let's say that they work for you if you're a manager. And normally you're sitting behind your desk and you got your monitors here and the person's kind of sitting over here, right? And you kind of angle towards them. I actually would take the chair and move it to the side of the desk. And that way, there is no barrier between me and the other person. And there's no screens. It's just me and them.

And we're talking now, I have a notebook and a pen so you could see as I've been taking notes the whole time you're talking. I like to take notes. But other than that, there are no barriers. There's no desk in between us. It is showing them I am 100% focused on you for our time, right? Good, good verbal like non-verbal cues, all of that I think is a big part of it. But that little simple thing is I would actually wait until they come in, they'd sit down.

And then while I'm still sitting in the chair, because it's obviously on wheels, it moves around to the side of the desk. And they see it. they've, you know, maybe even subconsciously like, oh, okay. And that's how, and then the meeting starts. And I think those little things can make a really big difference. Because I've had a manager before, Vanessa, I don't know if you had one like this. They had a TV in their office.

They would sit behind their desk. The TV would be on behind me, behind me. And this is what they would be doing when we talk. I'd talk and let's say I was talking for more than 15 seconds. So I guess I was boring them. They'd go like this. Oh, my. And I'm like,

Are you serious, dude? Are you really watching TV during our one-on-one? I'm here for like 30 minutes every other week. So I think like little things like that. And this guy was a smart guy. Smart guy. Not going to say he wasn't. So just these are things to think about. I don't know if you have any stories from one. I have a little tip on this. That's like outrageous by the way. Like absolutely outrageous. So please don't have a TV behind you in your office. Okay, that's tip number one. But tip number two is if you have someone who's overhead gazing you. So that's actually a very common issue that you might be in a office and someone's looking behind you at a television or you're in a restaurant and people are seeing who else is in the room you're at an office part you're networking about and people are scoping out who's better to talk to it's the worst right like yes so here's what you can do so either you can ignore it and be like this isn't my person because it's very disrespectful so that's option number one option number two is and this works really well is look where they're looking every time they do it oh so when they look behind you like look behind you and be like is someone there oh sorry I saw you looking.

And they do it again. Oh, oh, sorry. I saw you looking. You will train them out of doing it because you're showing them. That's how distracting it is, friend. When you look behind me, I want to look behind too. It's super distracting. And so you should actually interrupt the flow of your conversation to show them how bad it is.

And they either will walk away because they'll want to scope the room. Cool. Go get a drink. Or they will stop doing it, which is great. I also want to mention, you know, we have a lot of leaders who are listening. And so like, let's go a little bit advanced, which is you mentioned going around the table. Brilliant. I want to break this down as a tool that you can keep in your tool belt.

So there are two different ways that we can be intimate with someone. And I don't mean like romantically. I mean like open connection, open book, sharing, collaborating, building a lot of trust. Oxytocin. Oxytocin is a chemical of connection. The first is fronting, facing each other without barriers, right? So ideally you don't have a desk in front of you. but if you do, you're giving eye contact or trying to be aligned.

The second way is you remove all the barriers and you go into their personal space. This is an alternate. You might have people who prefer this because the one-to-one eye contact is actually too much. There are people who prefer. This is why some people love sitting at a bar next to each other as opposed to sitting at a table facing each other. We have subtle preferences like this. So I know the people in my life. Like this is, I have a lot of parents of teenagers.

My daughter is a toddler, so we're not here yet. Thank goodness. But I have parents of teenagers tell me, you know, when I'm sitting in the car next to my child, they tell me everything. The moment I'm facing them, they're like, no, no, too much, too much, too much. So you have two options here for getting someone to open up and connect. One is fronting, angling towards them. But if that's not working, if that's too much for someone, try one.

try walking next to each other in step, if you can. Try driving next to each other or sitting at the bar together next to each other. That is an alternate or try scooting your chair over to their side of the desk. I would try this in a couple different ways because you'd be surprised at what level people have as a preference. I like that. I just sat at the bar yesterday. I asked my daughter's volleyball game. Afterwards, we go get a meal.

We go to a bar. Great food at this bar, right? we're not drinking or anything, but we're sitting next to other. And I think this is the case for her. When we're sitting, we also go on a lot of car rides because there's volleyball tournaments all over the place. Those are hours and hours to get there. Sitting next to each other, you're kind of looking forward. Sometimes you look over, but for the most part, you're just kind of hanging and you can get some depth. So I really like that one. I think that could work anywhere. Speaking of Zoom calls, since I don't think those are going away. I know the world's opening up, but they're not going away.

What are some tips? And I have one that I really think about a lot. when it comes to your camera and looking into your camera versus looking at you. Like this is actually really mentally taxing on me because I'm staring into the camera because for you, I wanted to feel like I'm looking at you, but I'm not. I'm actually looking at my camera. And that part of it is more important for me that you feel that as well as the audience when they watch this on YouTube. I'm looking at them or I'm looking at you.

I'm actually not, I don't get to see you that much though because I only peeked down every once in a while, like I'm peeking down at you now. Now I'm looking in the camera. So can you share some other tips when it comes to how to best come across authentically you, obviously, but to make sure that your Zoom calls are good ones. Yeah. So you mentioned something that's correct. Correct.

Your instinct is right, which is that research has proven. So I briefly mentioned oxytocin and I should actually explain it a little bit more. So oxytocin is a very complicated chemical in our body. But one of the things that it does that helps us feel trust. They've literally found that when people do nose sprays of oxytocin, like they trust and share and collaborate more in prisoners dilemmas. Wait, you can actually do a nose spray of that? Oh, yeah.

Really? Oh, yeah. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. So, yeah, so they've actually, they have a way to make oxytocin, and they give it to people in research experiments to see what it will do to them. Wow.

And what they found is that at low levels, this is kind of funny, at low levels, it makes people just trust. Like they literally just give away stuff in personal levels, the more the more they oxis and they get, the more they're like, I want to help humanity. Because it's the chemical of trust. Now that's a full nose spray. At high levels, it actually induces labor. That's literally what it does.

So it's a very powerful chemical. They're doing lots of research to understand it. But the fastest way is that we socially trigger oxytocin. are eye contact, touch, and then mutual moments. What I mean by mutual moments is when we both laugh together or when we both say, oh, yeah, me too. Yeah, you? What?

No way. I love Ohio. Right? Like, whatever it is, like, whatever that me too moment is, that's also like a moment of like, oh, wow, camaraderie. Yeah. So that's why it's a great tactic. I talk about this lot and captivate, not cues, that trying to find three.

mutual moments and the first few minutes of interaction is really powerful. So like coming loaded with those mutual moments can be very helpful in an interaction because it's just a way that you're triggering that chemical. So in a Zoom call, you are right that we do produce oxytocin through virtual eye contact. But it only happens if someone's looking at the camera, right? So if I'm not looking at the camera, you're not looking at camera, we don't get oxytocin. So that's the good news is that when you do look at the camera, you're making eye contact. I like a rig if you can set it up where I can bounce between the camera and you.

That's what I have right now. So I have like the screen is shrunk so that I can bounce pretty easily between your face and the camera so that I'm able to do both. So if you can set up a rig where you either minimize your screen or you have a little, I've seen people who have little extra monitors that are right below their camera just they can see people's faces. That's a kind of great way to do it. The second thing to think about is the distance between your nose and the camera. So I always make sure the distance between my nose and my camera is at least 18 inches away. The reason for this is because if I were to do my entire, have you ever seen people Zoom calls where they're like 12 inches away?

It's like it's way to, it's like you're like, whoa. It's the equivalent of digital close talking. If you've ever seen that Seinfeld episode for close talkers. Right. Right about the story in the book. Yes, exactly. So one, it's a very simple. Literally take the measurement between your nose and your camera, make sure at least 18 inches away.

and make sure upon logging in, you're not like, oh, oh, hi, because that was your first impression. It was actually when you were too close. So some little tips, they really help. I also really like if you can do it, some sort of a nonverbal greeting in the first few seconds of the interaction. So that could be a nod. Hey, good morning. It could be a wave, which is my favorite. Oh, nice to see you.

It could be a smile. It could also be, of course, a positive verbal engagement. But actually, the nonverbal ones are a little bit more powerful than the verbal ones. You mentioned one of those three, though, was touching, and you can't do that on Zoom. But let's, let's, so I think we cover the video calls. I'm a big proponent of this. Mainly my background in sports is because of this. There's a lot of touching.

And you actually cite research about the NBA, I guess, finals, the Dallas Mavericks year, the teams. They actually studied who touched more and the teams that touched more one more. Can you share more? How do we do this in the business? On a basketball team, it's easy. We're always touching. We pick each other up when they take a charge. We pat them on the back, all that stuff.

But volleyball, again, getting back to that, tons of teammates touching. But how do you do that in the workplace without it being a potential problem? So actually, I have a really easy way to do it. And that that research was so fun to read because they created the touchy-feely index. That's what these researchers called it, where they just sat and watched games and just counted butt-pats, backpats. They cataloged them. It's like the funniest research to read. Yeah, the Mavs out-touched by.

a tremendous amount. They were super touchy and they went all the way. So how do we do this in a business setting? So first, you do have business okay touches, right? So you can, you know, walk in and give the handshake or, you know, pat someone on the upper shoulder. Good to see you. Good morning. As you're walking out or into a conference room, you could, you know, say, hey, good morning. Hey, Jill, how are you? And you can, so if that's comfortable for you in your workplace, those casual upper back touches. And of course, handshakes are great. I love handshaking people I already know. So I will very often like, you know, like, oh, it's so good seeing you.

Like I will reach out my hand even just as a like not only the first time. A lot of the times what happens is we forego the handshake when we already know someone. But actually after you've met with a client many times, it's great to always end it on a handshake. So handshakes, back paths, I love. The other way you can do this. It's kind of a crazy way is you can also mention oxytocin, words. So there's a whole section in the book on verbal cues. And our words are really important, but I think that we don't even use that the right way in the sense of there are warm words and

there are competent words. And this is a little bit more art than science, but warm words kind of give you the warm and fuzzies. When I say best, both collaborate together, happy, we, those are kind of warm and fuzzy words. In fact, our brain likes those words. We're like, yet together. We're together. We just like that sense. That's a little bit oxytocinducin-inducity in its sense versus competent words. Competent words are the get at doneers. These are productive, brainstorm, efficient, power through, right? Like those kind of like, oh, it makes you want to do words. And so the way that we can do the business in a business setting is we can say, oh, team is so lovely to see you today. We have a wonderful agenda. My goal is for us to collaborate

and bond and connect. I can't wait to get started. Now, if I started a meeting like that, I haven't touched anyone, but you kind of are already, we're priming for, ooh, to warm and fuzzies, right? Like, I'm being queued, and research is quite clear on this. When we hear a word like collaborate, our brain prepares to be collaborative. When we hear a word like power, so what if I were talking to me like this? All right, everyone, today is the day. We are going to get it done. We have a long agenda, but I know we're going to be productive and efficient. I have a goal session on the board. We're going to brainstorm it and let's get her done.

That's totally different, right? Like if I prep for get it done or productivity, our brain gets ready to be productive. And so those words really matter. And that's a way that we can replace oxytocin in a sense by just being more purposeful with our words. As long as they're authentic, right, I don't want you to feel like you're going with a fake script. Like, I do want you to actually have intention to collaborate, right? The worst would be that you prepare people collaborate, then you're not actually collaborative.

Are you seeing hugging making a big comeback? I am. I feel like now, guys, girls, it doesn't matter. Sometimes, like, if it's the first person, you meet, the person will say, yeah, I'm kind of a hugger or whatever. And it's a little awkward, but then you hug them,

then you feel like you've gotten closer, and then it's just a natural hug the next time. I feel like, for me, at least, this is, I had to host the leadership offsite. Some of the people I'd only seen on Zoom for the last eight months, we got together in person for the first time. There was a lot of hugging going on. What do you think about that?

Hugging is making a comeback. What's funny about it, I've also noticed that the long hug is making a comeback. Yeah. So like I was always a hugger, but now I've multiple times I've been hugged over two or three seconds. Like people are like committing to the hug. They're like,

mm, your body. We're just feeling it. I'm okay with it. If you are not a hugger, you should be very clear about that. Right. And this happened to me just the other day where so very easy cue here is if someone comes at you with one hand, they are cueing you for a handshake.

If they're coming at you with two hands, they are cueing you for a hug. Follow their lead. I leave my hands down until I see what they want. And that has saved me many an awkward side hug, right? Like you don't want that awkward side hug. Love it. We have to do shark tank. No, I know.

I know. I'm just going to say it. Okay. We tease the shark tank. I know we got only a couple minutes to go. let's tell the reason why the founder of ring initially screwed it up. All right. So I love Shark Tank.

I'm a huge Shark Tank fan. The reason why I like Shark Tank so much is because these are all good ideas. But some of them are like everyone, everyone wants a bite. And some of the people are like, not really. And so I think that a lot of the times how the idea is delivered is just as important as the actual idea because they're all pretty good. Like I've talked to insiders in the show and like they don't know who's going to going to get a deal. Like all the ideas going in have a chance of getting a deal. I wouldn't just put someone in there who's a disaster, although occasionally they do put people in there who are

disaster, but that's very rare. So all these ideas are good. Why does them get taken? So we did a massive study with my research partner, Jose Pena, where we analyzed 495 shark tank pitches. It took months and months of work, coding as many aspects of the pitches we could looking for patterns. And this is what I talked about in the book is what were the patterns that we found. In this research, There was one particular pitch that stood out to me, which is what I opened the book with, Jamie Semenoff, founder of Ring, ring, okay? This is on millions, if not billions of doorbells around the world. It was eventually acquired by Amazon for over a billion dollars.

Shaquille O'Neal and Richard Bransson and Bettsin Ring, but it completely failed in the tank. Why? So this pitch just absolutely dumbfound to me because I was like, this idea is an incredible idea. It went on just a few months later to get a huge investment. But if you watch the pitch, you will see the verbal answers are pretty good. But his nonverbal and his vocal answers are terrible. And the very first one, the biggest cue that hopefully I can teach here that you can just use for the rest of your life is the cue that I think broke Jamie Siminoff is the question inflection. The question inflection is a vocal cue. And it's when we go up at the end of our sentences.

So we're talking like this, but we go up at the end. So it sounds like every sentence is a question. We know when researchers found that when we hear the question inflection accidentally used on a statement, our brain goes from listening to scrutinizing. And that is because liars often use the question inflection. So we did a massive light detection research in our lab, which I talked about in the book, where people submitted lies. And we found that was the most common tell that in two truths and a lie, people would ask their lie. So it would sound like this. Two truths and a lie is three statements. So see if you can hear what the lie is. two of these are truths,

one's lie. I'm from Los Angeles. I love dogs. I'm a vegetarian. You're not a vegetarian. I'm not a vegetarian. I love dogs in front of Los Angeles. So that's what we heard over and over again.

So Jamie Semenoff, the very first thing he says in the pitch, and it broke him, I think, is he closed the doors to the shark tank and he knocked on the door. And they said, who's there? And he said, it's Jamie here to pitch? that is basically saying I'm not confident in my pitch and who I am and why I'm here.

So you shouldn't be either. And that first impression right then and there, I think it made them doubt him. And his entire pitch, they doubted every single thing he said. Now, there was hundreds of cues that happened at pitch. And I break down a bunch of them. But I think that vocal inflection. So a takeaway for listeners is if you have something to say, say it, don't ask it, especially your name.

I cannot tell you how often I hear people introduce themselves on their voicemails or in a meeting and they go, hi, I'm Vanessa. Good to see everyone. So your intros, your voicemails. Second, your numbers. So if you are in sales, this is the single biggest mistake I see in sales where people are doing great in their pitch. They're saying it.

We'd love to have your business. We'd love to work with you. And the cost of our program is $5,000. When you do that, you are begging people to negotiate with you. You're saying, I'm not so sure about this price and neither should you be. And so a thing to think about it here is if you're willing to audit yourself, to listen to some previous sales calls that maybe didn't go well, listen for accidental question flexion. I find that is the number one way that we give away all of our power. So good.

The book, which is a must read, is called Cues. Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communications, Small Signals, and Crows, and Cruel. incredible impact. It'll grab you. And it's one of those ones I like to say great authors earn each turn of the page. Vanessa, you absolutely earn each turn. So thank you so much for being here. And as always, I'd love to continue our dialogue as we both progress. Oh my goodness. I'm so grateful to you. I'm so grateful for our listeners. And thank you so much for supporting this work for all the awkward people out there. If you are trying to develop your it factor, I'm so honored to help because it can be learned.

So good. Thank you so much, Vanessa. That is a conversation that could have gone on for another hour. I am fascinated by the work that Vanessa does and find her to be an amazing storyteller, also backed by an immense amount of research. So she is about as good as it gets when it comes to a podcast guest. I hope you enjoyed that one. A few takeaways from my notes. It's all about warmth and competence.

Can I trust you? Can I rely on you? How are you showing others warmth and competence? And then in your one-on-ones, remove all barriers between you and the person. Remember, slide your chair around the side of your desk. Be you and them. Show them 100% focus. If they happen to be gazing over your head, and this goes beyond just one-on-ones, turn around. Look where they're looking. You'll probably teach them to stop doing this. that. And then from the founder of the company Ring, he messed up on Shark Tank because of question inflection. This is something that a lot of us do without even thinking, where we are stating a fact, but for some reason raise our voice, our inflection at the end. So when stating a

fact, say it, don't ask it. Again, I hope you enjoyed this one as much as I. It. I I did. I hope you choose to tell a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader Show with Vanessa Van Edwards. I think she'll help you become a much more effective leader. And because you continue to do that and you continue to write reviews on Apple podcast and rate the show, hopefully five stars, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to soon. Can wait.