The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 471: Steve Magness - Why We Get Resilience Wrong & The Surprising Science Of Real Toughness (Do Hard Things)

Episode Date: May 8, 2022

Text Hawk to 66866 to receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right... Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: RyanHawk12  https://twitter.com/RyanHawk12 Steve Magness is a world-renowned expert on performance, co-author of Peak Performance: Elevate Your Game, Avoid Burnout, and Thrive with the New Science of Success and The Passion Paradox: A Guide to Going All In, Finding Success, and Discovering the Benefits of an Unbalanced Life, and the author of The Science of Running: How to Find Your Limit and Train to Maximize Your Performance. His new book is called Do Hard Things. Notes: "The best aren't concerned with being the best. They're concerned with being the best at getting better." Confidence: Confidence needs evidence. Acting with bravado we haven't earned only works on easy things. It backfires on anything truly challenging. Doing difficult things, even if you don't quite succeed at them, is how you develop real confidence. How do you find a good mentor? Do interesting things. Be open to learning and guidance. Be motivated, driven, and curious about something. Put your ego aside. Do good, quality work. The difference between real and fake toughness. Fake toughness is easy to identify. It's Bobby Knight losing control and throwing tantrums in the name of "discipline." It's the appearance of power without substance behind it. Researchers out of Eastern Washington set out to explore the relationship between leadership style and the development of toughness. After conducting research on nearly two hundred basketball players and their coaches, they concluded, "The results of this study seem to suggest that the 'keys' to promoting mental toughness do not lie in this autocratic, authoritarian, or oppressive style. It appears to lie, paradoxically, with the coach's ability to produce an environment, which emphasizes trust and inclusion, humility, and service. Sustained Excellence: Observation: the people who sustain success over the long haul are rarely shooting for success. They are focused on the path. Their goal is mastery, which knows no end. What characteristics do the best performers have? Don't get tired of the boring stuff Masters of compartmentalization Can flip the switch Know how to lose well Cultivate perspective Delayed gratification Drive from within Creating an enemy: Whenever an organization, group, or individual works hard to create an enemy to pit their idea/group against, it's a sign you probably shouldn't listen. Us vs. Them is the easiest way to exploit human nature, to get people on your side. It often means there's no substance there. The best way to get the most out of someone is to make them feel secure enough that they can take risks and fail. Most of us don't reach our potential because we default to protective mode. Threatening & demanding makes us protect further. Security and belonging frees us up. "Growth comes at the point of resistance. Skills come from struggle." "The fact is that often coaches figure out what works in training and then the scientists come in later and explain why it works." What can we learn about success and performance from Eliud Kipchoge? He is not fanatical about trying to be great all the time. He is consistent & patient. His coach says that the secret is that he makes progress "slowly by slowly." Motivation + Discipline = Consistency He told The NY Times, "He estimates that he seldom pushes himself past 80 percent — 90 percent, tops — of his maximum effort when he circles the track." "I have a mindset whereby I am a human being. I am walking around as a human being. I learn to perform well at the same time being grounded. And I trust that being humble and being on the ground is the only way to concentrate" "You cannot train alone and expect to run a fast time. There is a formula: 100% of me is nothing compared to 1% of the whole team. And that's teamwork. That's what I value." "To be precise, I am just going to try to run my personal best. If it comes as a world record, I would appreciate it. But I would treat it as a personal best."

Welcome to the Learning Leader Show presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text, Hawk to 66866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email for me each Monday morning. to help you start your week off. Write, you'll also receive details about how my book,

The Pursuit of Excellence, will help you become a more effective leader. Text, Hawk to 66866. Now on to tonight's featured leader. This is a great one. Steve Magnus is world-renowned for his work on high performance. He's the best-selling author of many books, including the passion paradox, peak performance. And his new book is called Do Hard Things,

why we get resilience wrong and the surprising science of real toughness. During this conversation we discuss, how to build genuine confidence in yourself and how to help others build it in themselves. And then Steve goes deep on the differences between real and fake toughness. And then why the best in the world don't think about being the best in the world

and what they focus on instead. Ladies and gentlemen, this one is so good. It's Steve Magnus. Steve, it's great to talk with you after we've had a lot of DMs back and forth over the past few months. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. Yeah, I'm excited to finally get on the show. So to start, I love actually thinking about love. And you dedicate your most recent book, which is called Do Hard Things, an awesome book, by the way.

But you dedicate it to a couple people. First, your wife, Hillary. And I want to put a pause on Hillary for just a second. And I want to focus on Tom Abbey. I don't know Tom Abbey, but it sounds like Tom is a special person. Can you share why you dedicate? the book to Tom. You know, I'm glad you've asked this because no one's asked this yet.

So Tom was essentially a teammate of mine while I was in grad school and training as a track and field athlete. His wife was on our kind of little small team of people still going at it after college. And Tom was a big part of that. And as Tom transitioned from an athlete, he actually. actually, you know, went in and, you know, owned a gym and started strength training and started guiding our strength training. And he was a really good friend. But what I always remember is during that transition piece, our coach, our mutual coach said, hey, Tom's going to handle all the

strength training. And Tom and I were about the same age. And I go in there. And I'm like, all right, Tom, like, what are we going to do? And he gives me this long spiel. And if I'm honest, I kind of blew him off because I was young, he was young. In my head, I'm like, ah, some of that sounds, I don't know about that, right? And I listened, I was polite, but I kind of blew him off. And then how Tom handled that, like really made an impact on my life. Because he noticed it, and he just paused. And he said, Steve, I want to thank you. for your critique because I was going back and forth with them and say, I don't know about this. I said, I don't agree with everything you said, but this has really pushed me to think about things.

Now, let's, let me give some time to think about it, research, and let's have this conversation again. And that really as a young athlete who went into coaching, that humility, really kind of shaped how I approach coaching. And unfortunately, you know, sadly, Tom passed away in his early 30s due to a brain tumor. He has two young children and married to the teammate of mine as well. And, you know, he was just such a bright light. And that story as again, it's something I think about, you know, maybe once every month because it really shapes the foundation on my coaching. Where do you think he was able to get, I know as a younger, immature athlete, I had none of that.

I think I've developed some of that as I've gotten more mature. So I'm always fascinated when I see a younger person earlier in their career who has that humility, who has that open-mindedness, which I think usually comes from more experience, right? As you talk to more people, the world becomes more gray. Hopefully you become more nuanced. You become more reasonable. I think because of the past seven years of doing this show, that's definitely happened to me,

less like one side versus the other side, much more kind of thinking things through independent thinker. And so when a person earlier in their life has that, I wonder how. Where do you think he got that? Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I wish I had the answer to it. I think, you know, really to me, what I saw in Tom was he was able to put his, he was a very good athlete, but he was able to put his ego aside. And you saw this, again, as an athlete, he was very strong, but he kind of, his wife was a better athlete. You know, she was like an Olympic trials, qualifier and really good.

Always a smart move, by the way. Yes. So he put his own like career and aspirations kind of to the side and said, you know, what, I'm going to help and support you. So he would, you know, he went from like training to he was at the track helping coach her and support her in his free time as well. And I think, you know, I don't know, but I think that kind of putting your ego aside, like having the humility, like putting other people before, you know, wherever that came from from him, it was, it was very obvious. And it rubbed off on, on the rest of us around him. I think one of the things that that helps with that is,

mentors and so I'm going to tease the fact that we're going to talk about mentors but not right now because there's another part that I really want to get to because I think mentorship is very important but I was recently watching a speech that you gave on YouTube and you're talking about a person you were coaching who was a runner and I believe at the time that you guys commenced your coaching relationship he was 120th in the country in his event. And one of the quotes that I really identify with because I feel like this gets messed up so much is when talking about the best. And the quote is, the best aren't concerned with being the best. They're concerned with being the best at getting better. And we happen to be recording this,

Steve, the day of the NFL draft. And so I'm watching and reading a bunch of these quotes of these draft hopefuls, especially some of the quarterbacks. That's the position I played. I remember draft day somehow thinking, maybe a team will draft me, even though there was almost no chance of that happening. But I'm reading some of these quotes and the quarterbacks are saying like, well, my goal is to be the greatest quarterback of all time. I'm going to be the best ever. And again, when I was 22, 23, I would have said the exact same thing. So I completely get it. but it's so misguided. It is so wrong because the best don't seem to think like that.

Can you share more about your relationship with this runner who was focused on being the best at getting better versus comparing himself to all the other runners? Yeah, I think this is such an important point and something that is missed at the, you know, at the performance elite level. with this athlete, his name was Brian. And what I noticed is coming again, again, he wasn't super highly recruited. He was a good runner, but he wasn't great. He wasn't anyone expected to compete at the national level, for example. But slowly over his career, he just kept getting better. And he just kept doing the things that he needed to do.

And he wasn't concerned of, oh, I'm, you know, I'm now 60th in the nation. I'm now 40th. I'm now 30th. It didn't matter to him. What I always saw with him is he just kept coming back to the work. And in the conversations we'd have, it wouldn't be about how to be, I become the national champion. He would sit down and he'd ask, here's how this race went. How do I improve upon it?

How do I get better at it? What were the things that I did? that I could maybe shore up. How do I fix these weaknesses? I remember having a conversation with them once where he said, you know what? I think my speed is a weakness. I think it's holding me back. And I said, okay, you're, you know, you're probably right. So let's work on it. And I said, you know what? But when we work on it, we might get a little worse at first because we're going to neglect these things because he was a distance runner, right? He needed to do the endurance stuff and all that's how you get good.

The speed helps a little bit, but he knew it was going to be a roadblock in his future progression, years down the line. So we focused on something that didn't get him faster next week or next month. It was going to allow him to get faster two, three years down the line because then it wouldn't be this kind of limiting factor. And I'm reminded of, I had a conversation with Tom House,

who is a phenomenal pitching coach, throwing coach, works with Nolan Ryan and several, you know, Tom Brady and all these wonderful athletes. And he told me, the best are almost obsessed with the process. They're not obsessed with the outcome. They're obsessed with the process. What do I need to do to get better? And I think that's such a subtle but important distinction and one that is missed by so many because they get so caught up in like, oh, I need to have the confidence. I need to like project that I'm going to be the best quarterback in history. It's like that's not how you get there. You get there by doing the work. And you've got to be almost obsessed with doing the work to survive over the long haul. I think you almost have to be in love with the work. Because,

it's too hard. It's too hard to honestly Steve I when I look at my calendar before every day and I see that you know I've prepared a lot for this conversation and when I see this morning that last night and this morning that this was happening I was just so happy and so like oh this is my favorite thing to do to speak with a really thoughtful great storyteller intentional well-researched great dude who I know I'm going to learn from and then others will too. To me like when it comes to work there's nothing better and all of the work that leads up to that there's so much love involved with the process of reading your book that's boring I'm sitting here by myself for hours on end reading a book and then watching YouTube videos and then writing notes and forming an outline

all of that though honestly I love it and I don't think it's possible to sustain excellence over time, whether it's as a quarterback, as a leader, whatever it is, if you don't have a love for the grind of the work. Without that, the outcomes just don't come. And with it, I feel like, as Bill Walsh might say, the score will take care of itself. That's what seems to happen. I think you're spot on, and I love that you use this distinction, because I said obsessed, but obsessed can go the wrong way and be out of like fear in the sense that, oh, I'm just doing this because I don't want to lose my job or I'm afraid I'm not good enough or whatever I have you. Love is a close cousin to obsession, but you're doing it because it

like brings that joy to you. Right. And I think it's such a and I think the other part is is love is also love doesn't mean that every single moment of what you do is enjoyable, right? It means that the whole process is. It's just like being in a relationship or marriage. When you're in love, it's not that every moment is golden. It's that you know you have this like this other person and this security and this other person to share and grow with. And I think it's the same with the work, you know, is similar to you. I love having these conversations. why? Because it allows us to dive deep and explore difficult topics and wrestle with things, you know, at a level that often in society and the world we don't get to because we like to stay on kind of like the superficial, you know, side.

So I'm with you. I think love is the perfect descriptor. One of the other aspects of this that Brian, the guy you were coaching, seemed to have that I found to be, a superpower when it comes to high performance is delayed gratification. This ability, in his case, to say, we're going to get worse first, then a year from now, two years from now, I'll be better, we'll be better. Can you talk more about some of the science and research behind why delayed gratification is so important for high performance? Yeah, I think this is one of the, one of the most important things you can teach and understand, especially in our current world, because we want things now. We want to put in the work and then get the reward right away. But what the

science and research and everything says is essentially, you know, progress takes time. There are no or there are very few overnight successes. It's the 10-year overnight success. It's the 10-year overnight success, right? Where we had to put in the work and then it looks like we magically came through, but no one saw the work that we did for 10 years to get to that point. And I think this is why it's so important is if you can foster that mindset of delayed gratification that, you know, hey, over the long haul, this is going to pay off. Over the long haul, I'm going to get better. You're setting yourself and those you work with up for success. And if you look at the research as well is that the way I kind of compare it is it's almost like lighter fluid versus coals right lighter

fluid you spray it on the grill and you get a big flame and it looks great coals don't look so so great right they're just slow burning but coals last a really freaking long time lighter fluid you need some other source to kind of mix in there to keep things going that's how I kind of see this motivation, right? If we, the delayed gratification is, is that like internal motivation that is like coals, it's steady over the long haul, it keeps us going so that we can last and do some great things. That's what we need to, you know, need to cultivate. And as again, if you look at the research, what it tends to show is those who make it to the highest level have that kind of delayed gratification, that intrinsic motivation, that ability to say, hey,

it's okay, I'm going to put in the work and it might not pay off for a while, but eventually it will. Let's talk about toughness. Specifically, the difference between real and fake toughness. Now, fake toughness, as you write, is easy to identify. It's Bobby Knight, losing control, throwing tantrums in the name of, quote, discipline. It's the appearance of power with, Without substance behind it. This book, Do Hard Things, talks a lot about real and fake toughness, and I love it.

Can you share more about the difference between fake tough guys? I'm using guys here. Fake tough guys and real toughness. Yeah, you know, this is something, this is at the heart of this book. Because what I noticed, and this goes beyond sports, but I'm a sports guy, so I love talking about it in this context. But what I started to see is that we hold up these images of almost this external bravado and like this outer confidence and this discipline coming from demandingness and authoritarian control and power.

And we wrap that up into, hey, this is what it means to be tough. And this really came to heart actually when a couple years ago, I was reading some news article and some politician says, you know, hey, he's tough. He's strong and tough. And I'm like, who are they talking about? Well, they were talking about an authoritarian dictator of another country. And not to get into politics, but that really, whether we're in sport, whether in politics, whether in leadership, whether we're in parenting, we often hold up this external image of tough. toughness, when the reality is those who, you know, need to have this like false bravado and this,

you know, external displays and of strength and power and show you that they're in control, they're actually, they're often doing that out of insecurity. It's no different than the schoolyard bully, right? Who, yeah, they act tough, but they're really insecure and they just really want some friends and want to be liked. And that's why they're bullying. Like they aren't secure in their self. And that's where I think the difference between the fake and the real kind is.

Because real toughness to me is when push comes to shove, when you're in the midst of something stressful or chaotic, you're able to navigate and work through it. And the way to navigate and work through it isn't to kind of, you know, oh, I'm going to fake my way through it. I'm going to force my way through it. science and elite performers tell us it's navigating is about slowing the world down. It's about having a calm conversation with yourself so that you can thoughtfully choose the wise action and not just choose the reactive idea or action.

And you see this in people we hold up to be toughness or tough, like the military special forces, for example. They're brilliant at this. And it's not because they're like, oh, I'm going to just push my way through it. If you look at, again, the research and you talk to some of these, I'm lucky to have a couple former athletes who went into the military. They'll tell you, it's keeping your mind steady and calm and clear. Well, the world around you is just chaotic and crazy. And you don't keep your mind steady and clear by just pushing. putting your head down and gritting through and pushing through, you keep your mind steady by acceptance, right? Of being like, hey, this is really difficult, of talking your way through it,

of understanding that, you know, the chaos is crazy, but it's okay. And I think that's the key distinction when we look at doing hard things. I was reading when you wrote researchers out of eastern Washington set out to explore the relationship between leadership style and the development of toughness. After conducting research on nearly 200 basketball players and their coaches, they concluded, quote, the results of this study seem to suggest that the keys to promoting mental toughness do not lie in this autocratic, authoritarian, or oppressive style. It appears to paradoxically with the coach's ability to produce an environment which emphasizes trust and inclusion humility and service this I think Steve

not only applies for a basketball team but this applies across boundaries when it comes to coaches slash leaders slash bosses CEOs you name it I feel like this is something to really think about of how to take action immediately when building toughness on your your team. Curious to hear more about what you think about this. Yeah, I love that quote. When I read it, I was like, oh, this is it. And it essentially says, what does that mean? Be a decent human being. Right. Like, if you're a decent human being who cares about the people you lead, guess what? They're going to be able to handle more difficult

things and challenges. They're going to be able to persist longer. And there's research in this in the workplace world, right? In Fortune 500 companies where they look at, you know, Google ran a study looking at their productivity and other companies. And they found that the number one factor that led towards like performance gains and all that in their leadership was psychological safety, which was what? people felt safe and secure to be who they were and like bring things up that were challenging or difficult and felt like they weren't going to be reprimanded or punished.

And I think that is the difference there is if you are leading, you have to create the environment that allows people to thrive. If people feel like they are wanted, valued, have a voice, have some choice, can make an impact, they're going to perform better. But somewhere along the way we've got it like mixed up and confused and thought that like, hey, if we control people, micromanage people like dictate and demand, this will get them on the right path. You can't force people to get on the right path.

You have to create the space and have the conversation so that they can like they feel like they know what to do and can perform up to their abilities. Why do you think we've gotten off track here? I think it's because it's easier. It's easier as a boss to go in and be like, it's my way or the highway. Like, this is the way you go. This is what happens. This is how you do things.

Power is easy. You know, you look at zooming all the way out to a country level. Democracy is hard. Yeah. Being a dictator for the person in charge is a lot easier. It doesn't help everybody. but it's a lot easier for the person in charge. With that said, there are times when people who are following a leader want to be led.

I felt this as a quarterback. They liked and wanted me at times just to tell them what to do, to take control, to own the huddle, right? To find my voice, to be demonstrative. These were things I was coached, and I think led us to doing well. And I think this happens in business too where at times It's like hey man you're the leader like let's go let's be decisive Let's go so how do you juxtapose between those two of of this we don't want to be these dictators obviously We don't want that but we also don't want every single meeting for the leaders say well I'm not sure what do we think and then go around the room for five hours without making a call

What do you think like how do you find the happy medium there? Yeah, so I think here is there's some wonderful research in the psychology of parenting that gives us the answer. And what they found, and this is decades in the work, but what they found is that parents who have high demandingness, meaning they have that, what you're talking about, like those high expectations that I'm going to stand up and lead when I need to. When they only have demandingness, it leads to bad outcomes. Their kids don't behave. They have worse discipline.

They're kind of monsters. Okay. But when they couple that high demandingness with what's called high responsiveness, that's where the gold happens, right? So it's not being a pushover. It's not not having high expectations or making decisions. It's coupling that with this high level of responsiveness, which is essentially, you know, do you care about the person? Do they know that you have their best interests at heart? Because you know this as an athlete. If the quarterback comes in the huddle and says, hey, this is what we're going to do and this is the play, you don't be like, oh, I think we need to do this. You go, no, this guy, this guy is shown he wants to win. Like he wants to lead our team in the right direction. That's the play. I'm all for it.

Like, let's go. We're all on the same team. That's what it's about. You know, if that quarterback, if you didn't trust them that they actually wanted to like help everybody else on the team win, then you wouldn't follow through it. But because you know you're on the same page with the same incentives with the same desires and that that quarterback or that leader like cares about you, then you're going to get on board. And that's what it is. That's what leading is. There's this awesome video.

I'll link it in the show notes at learning leader.com of a guy named Lucas Patrick. I doubt many people had heard of this guy prior to this video. I don't know if you've seen this one. He's an all of its alignment for the Green Bay Packers. And there was something I think caught a camera. caught Aaron Rogers, the quarterback, kind of laying into the guy on the sidelines and really, you know, getting into him. He probably made a mistake or something. And they said, like, how do you handle that, man? How do you deal with this? And I don't know if the, the media

understood what they were about to get. And this, this, the brilliance of Lucas Patrick, what a thoughtful guy. He says, you know what, guys, what I wish you got to see is the, the fact that I believe that everyone has this emotional bank account. And Aaron, makes deposits in this emotional bank account of mine every single day. He's depositing into the love and the care and his, yes, he has high expectations. He's the MVP, right? But he loves on us and cares about us every single day. So yeah, every once in a while when I don't do what I'm supposed to do, I get ripped and he gets on me.

But you guys don't get to see that my emotional bank account is full. and every once in a while he makes it, he does make a withdrawal. And that's what good leaders do. And I thought like, that's the thing, man. Like that's what leaders, it doesn't have to be football or any sport. That's what bosses. That's what leaders can do is if you're regularly making deposits into the emotional bank accounts of the people that you're leading. Yes, I think then you can be demanding at times and have high expectations and be decisive and do things.

And I think that's a great example of what you're talking about because a parent, exact same thing. Yeah, man, I love that. I haven't seen that video, but I'm going to go watch it after this because that that is that is it. I think so too often we get stuck in like these either or extremes, but it's are you doing the work on the regular basis to fill this person up? And if you do, then it gives you the leeway when it's necessary and required or might be helpful. You know, I was talking to an NBA coach, you know, had a phenomenal career. And he essentially told me, he said, Steve, I can't mother F them all the time. I've got to build them up.

And then every once in while, I might throw that in there at the right time because I know, like, hey, this is what needs to like snap this guy out or this guy needs like this to get him back on track to be like, wait a minute. My coach just like, he doesn't normally do this. Like this must mean this is really important. And I think I think that's what it's that's what it's about. It's not it's not necessarily like, hey, never be hard on the people you're you're leading or your employees. It's like, no, you have to be very intentional and deliberate on when you're doing that and build them up around that. So you have that trust and that belonging and that security so that you can push that button when you need to see if I got asked questions about confidence sometimes I ask me

about mine how I've developed it or or even more importantly they ask honestly man I I lack confidence at times or I want to build it up or I want to help build it up with the members of my team maybe they lack experience or whatever and you write about this and you say the confidence neat by the way I've pulled stuff you've written from all over the place your books the most recent book tweet threads what which you're an amazing Twitter follow for of those I mean I learned so much just from your Twitter feed alone so anyway but that's I think I might have pulled this from that confidence needs evidence acting with bravado we haven't haven't earned only works on easy things it backfires on

anything truly challenging doing difficult things even if you don't quite succeed at them is how you develop real confidence you share more about development of confidence in yourself as well as helping other people develop confidence in themselves. Yeah. You know, I think this is, again, one of those things we often misunderstand. We think confidence is this thing where we just kind of prop ourselves off and we say, hey, just be confident, act confident.

Like, fake it till you make it. But I hate that phrase, man. But the reality is like that does work. But as I said, on very simple things. If I need to stand up in front of my team, maybe, and I'm nervous, sure, I can fake it. Because I see them every day, you know, if I'm a coach, right? It's not that difficult, whatever. But when it comes to actual, like, doing difficult things, confidence has to be earned, right?

We have to give our brain essentially the evidence because confidence is about your brain, not knowing that, hey, I'm going to succeed. but knowing that I've put in the work, I have the capacity to try this thing. If your brain kind of realizes and your mind realizes I can try this thing, this isn't so far out of my wheelhouse or comfort zone, then it doesn't sound the alarm because all confidence is is not sounding the alarm to, you know, make you freak out or panic or what have you. Confidence is about, you know, keeping your mind under control so that you can, you know, use the tools or strategies or tactics or whatever to perform up to your ability. So for me, it's about have you put in the work. Have you challenged yourself and tried difficult things so that, you know, you can, your body is adapted to it. You know, when I was younger, I was very much an introvert who hated speaking. in public and doing, you know, big speeches and all that stuff. And how I initially got over that

when I got into coaching and then writing and doing all this stuff is pretty simple. I remembered back to my athletic days. And I said, you know what? Like, you've competed on national TV. You've competed in front of, you know, tens of thousands of people. This is very similar. Like, take the same approach. It doesn't mean that the nerves and anxiety are going to go away, but you're giving yourself that evidence that, hey, I've been in similar situations. I'm not always going to succeed, and it's okay if I fail, but it's going to fill that bucket up where I have more experiences and more to draw on whenever I get into something that might push my limits. I remember talking with Jay Hennessy, 26-year Navy SEAL, and Jay told me you have to regularly

push your edges and just make that a normal part of who you are so that each time you do it as you said steve you're you're a world-class runner like you're a world-class racer you've done it all over the place and and have actually done extremely well at it you can draw from putting your toe to the line and saying i'm i can do this i can push past this and i think that's why it's having this mindset of always being willing to push my edges so that when I do come up against something that, I don't know, I'm a little uncertain. I'm not sure. Your brain has the evidence from past performances that, oh, I've done this. Not maybe this exact thing, but I've done this type of thing where I'm pushing my edges regularly. I think that

is super helpful when it comes to being confident with almost anything that you're willing to try or willing to do. Yeah, you know, I love that. Jay is such a great thinker. And I think he's spot on. And I think about this in my life now as someone who, you know, just runs to stay in shape and whatever have you, it would be easy to just sit in comfort and not push those edges. But if I don't, it's just like a muscle atrophies, right? It's still there, but you forget a little bit. And in exercise, this is very easy to see, right? If you've been injured and you haven't worked out in a while, let's say you've been injured and you've been out for a couple months, and you start, that first hard workout back, it's horrible.

And your brain screams at you to stop at the slightest hint of fatigue, right? And that's how I think about other things in life, is if you don't push those edges for a while, that sensitivity drops and drops, you know, where now your brain's going to scream at you for things that aren't really that difficult and aren't really pushing those boundaries, but because you haven't done it in a while, like it's just not used to it. So I think this is for everybody, athletes, executives, leaders, managers, whoever is have something in your life. It can be physical.

It can be intellectual, it can be emotional that pushes that edge that puts you in a place where you're a little bit uncomfortable and have to sit with and deal with it. I want to talk about mentors now. We're going to bring it full circle. I mentioned it earlier on. This is somebody you've written about. that and again it's another very common question how do I get good mentors to help me I know they're important I've learned that part of it but how do I how do I get the

good ones and I'm gonna I'm gonna remind you of a few things that you've said about mentors and then we can expand upon them I don't expect you to remember everything you've ever published but because it mainly because I I agree with this especially some more than others the question posed is how do you find we know they're important okay that's that's that's assumed next how do we find a great mentor a few things that you've written and said that I agree with do interesting things now I want to highlight one phrase of that the word do take action actually do stuff do things so one do interesting things to be open to

learning and guidance three be motivated driven and curious yes about something for as you said before put your ego aside five do good quality work and then you Notice, I didn't say manipulate, harass, bother, or scheme your way into finding somebody. Can you share more about, one, the value of mentors and then even maybe more importantly, how you go about finding great mentors? I think mentors are one of the most important things you have because what you're doing essentially is it's like, it's almost like a cheat to excellence. because you're taking someone and their life experience of 30, 40, 50, 60 plus years, whatever it is,

and they're passing that along to you through a filter of knowing, like, they're taking all the good bits and like filtering it to you on what actually works. So you don't have to spend 40 years doing it. It's the best, you know, quote unquote hack we have. But I think we often go about finding those mentors in the wrong way. As you said there, I think often we think, okay, now I need to go find them. And then we almost like manipulate the situation of like, how do I get involved in this person's inner circle? Or how do I make them think that I'm, I'm worthy of being mentored? And what I've found in every mentor that I've had and every person that I've mentored myself, it didn't come about by me like seeking out and searching.

It came about by me doing. Yep. Which is when I did interesting things, when I was driven and curious and open to learning, like people who were really good mentors took notice of it. Because they know. They see things. They sit there and be like, oh man,

this person is like me when they were young. under, like, they were curious and trying to figure it out. I'm going to pass along this guidance. And in that, to me, is like the perfect mentor, is someone who sees things and says, hey, this person is curious and driven and all of these things. Like, I'm going to pass this information along. So my advice to people is pretty simple, is do interesting things in whatever field that is, start exploring, start being curious, and put it out there, right?

Write about it. Podcast about it. Talk about it. Share about it with your colleagues. I think far too often where we get in our way here is we think we have the secret sauce. So we get it. We like take our ideas, our interests and keep them protected because we don't want people to like, oh, you know, this is my idea. I don't want someone else stealing it or what have you.

The reality is every single I, there's very little new out there. Every single idea is kind of like borrowed and improved upon. So if you put it out there, your chances of someone who has some insight or like understanding of that goes up dramatically. So do interesting things and then put it out into the world. Okay, I want to speak about something that I think, I don't know, if it's controversial, it shouldn't be. I don't think, but maybe it is, is that maybe because of the world we live in today that it seems like it is. the problem with creating an enemy. And you write, whenever an organization group or individual works hard to create an enemy

to pit their idea slash group against, it's a sign you probably should not listen. Us versus them is the easiest way to exploit human nature to get people on your side. it often means there's no substance there. And as I said a little bit earlier to you, I think when you're out there and you meet a lot of fascinating people, when you read a bunch of books, you become so much more nuanced and so much more reasonable and so much more open to the fact that we're all just trying to figure things out as we go. and the world is so messy and gray that this kind of pick aside, it just does not work for me at all, man. Like, it never does. And if someone forces that, I am going to be immediately attracted to go the other way. Regardless of whatever they're for, if they have to have an enemy and fight, I struggle with this one.

But on the same token, in let's say the sales world where I used to work, you would sometimes create the chief competitor as like they're the bad guys. They're the enemy. And it's like us versus them as like the rallying. I was always like, well, you know, I seem to do well when I focus on making more sales calls. You know, like I don't really, it doesn't really matter about what the competitors doing. It's, I've noticed that when I stick true to my process, things seem to go better and I win

the awards and get to go on the trips and stuff. So can you share more about this kind of the last? lack of substance with a leader or with a group when they need to or when they work really hard to create an enemy to pit their idea or group against. Yeah. You know, I think this is like it's a human problem. As you said there, it's human nature. It's our tribal instinct to define who's in our group and who's in the out group.

So we create these us as us first them. And I think the danger of that in a workplace or leading standpoint is that that's very easy to do. As I said, it's human nature to fall on that track. But what you're doing there is you're essentially kind of manipulating people to try and manipulate their motivation. Because if you create an enemy, what it does is if there's someone else out there that we hate, that we don't like, what it does is it it kind of makes that group of your in-group coalesce. So it's like the cheat, the cheat way to create cohesion. But the problem is, in order to create that cohesion, you have to keep expanding and blowing up

that enemy on the outside and you almost have to like demonize them and create them as an other. And over the long haul, that's not a healthy and not be sustainable. So I think far better than creating this like us versus them is creating just what you said in the sales, you know, your sales experiences. How do we create this internal drive? How do we create this trust and community and belonging that is based on what we do and not a fear of someone else? So whenever someone starts to paint the other side or another idea or what have you is someone evil or an enemy or is an other. my antenna always goes up because I'm I sit there on like, oh, this person's trying to essentially manipulate me. They're trying to get me super angry and outraged at like experience outraged against someone else so that then they can like control my kind of decision making and my kind of sense

of community and belonging. So I see it as a warning sign. If someone's telling me to hate someone else or hate another side, I look the other way because that's a sign that I need to be aware. What do you think about rivals, whether it's a team company, you know, I live in Ohio, so the Ohio State, Michigan, like people like cross out M's and stuff. I think it's kind of dumb, but I get it. But like this whole thing of that and they have the countdown clock to that game every year. What do you think about rivals and that being a motivation to like one extra rep in the gym or whatever it may be. Yeah, you know, there's there's some interesting research on rivalries.

And I don't know it all that well, but what I do know is this is that it's twofold. Rivalries can increase motivation, but we also tend to choke in sport at a higher level when we're facing a rival. So it kind of pushes us to both extremes, right? is yes, sometimes it can like up your game, but sometimes it can create this pressure expectation that puts you in a place where your game just falls apart. So to me when it comes to rivalries is in things that, you know, I'll say don't really matter in the grand scheme of things like a, you know, in sport, what have you.

Like yes, it matters. I love sport, all that stuff. But I don't think it's like too harmful because everybody, hopefully, can step back and be like, hey, it's sport. You know, if you can't, that's the problem. If you really truly, you know, won't talk to someone from Michigan, if you're at Ohio State, that's a problem. If you really just don't like, you know, Michigan because they're your rival, whatever, on the, on the football field. Doesn't matter. That's fine. So I think we have to be very careful on where we're looking at rivals. And the other thing that I know the research shows as well is that

often the better thing to do is to look at your competitors as again not evil and not as like hey they're my best friends what have you but look at people who give you the opportunity to raise your game yeah yep yep so it and i'll use my sport here in running i look at it as you know i might have someone who's faster but they give me the opportunity to be able to see if i'm able to hang with them right yeah so it forces me to see if i can i can i can improve my own performance and i think when you you frame things as that instead of you know oh i hope they fall or perform poorly that's not a productive rivalry right you want them to be able to push you to improve your own performance and raise your own game they interviewed draymond green after the the warriors beat um yokitch's team Yokich is an MVP of the league. I think he probably will two-time. And they said, what did you say to him after the game? We saw you talking to him. And he said, I said, thank you. You're such a great player. You force me to perform at a higher level in order to do well. And so I truly, and you could tell he was

genuine, he genuinely was grateful. And he wanted to tell them that. And I thought, that's awesome. Like, that's what it's all about. Like, that's when some of this comparison competition can be for good. when you are there like, I need to raise the level of my play in order for us to do well to help my team. Steve, I want to shift gears a little bit because much like your collaborative partner, Brad Stolberg, who I love Brad and his work and you guys have written books together, which I'm fascinated about the kind of the co-writing process, and maybe we'll get to it here if we have a second. But you spend a lot of time coaching people one-on-one, correct? Correct.

So not just runners, but like high-performing leaders. CEOs and all of that. What is, and this may be more for me than anybody, because this is some of the work that I do, and I'm always looking to continually get better at it. And I think it has gotten better over the past four years. I hope I think the clients would say that. What, what's your process to start working with a high performing leader and helping that person get better? Like your overall philosophy, the way you go about it. Yeah. You know, this is, it's, it's been fun. getting into this journey of, again, my background is in sports. So that's where I started. But over the last four or five years have branched out into executives and leaders and entrepreneurs and physicians and

all that good stuff. And it's fun. And I think my process is, my process is pretty simple. It starts with the conversation. So the first session that we have, actually, it's not even an official session with anybody. I say, hey, before we work together, I want to spend an hour with you and we're just going to talk. I want to get to know you, understand what you're struggling with, understand your story. And then at the end, we're both going to decide, hey, does this sound like a good fit or not? Because I think the most important thing is that people feel comfortable working with me and I feel comfortable working with them. Now it doesn't, you know, it's rare, but it happens every once while.

We're like, ah, I don't know if I'm the right fit for you. And you have to have like the humility and ego and like, you know, put it aside and be like, you know what? I can't, I can't help everybody. Like someone else might be better for you. And I think that's where it starts. That's my philosophy is like put the ego aside. My job is to help someone.

am I capable of doing this? Am I the best person for this? And then let's have a conversation and understand that person as a human being before we get into, okay, you know, I need help in X, Y, and Z. Yeah. It's a fascinating world that I never expected to be in, but I find it to be hugely rewarding when you actually see progress being made because of your ability to listen and to be curious.

and to offer little pieces of advice here and there as you go. My friend Sam Kaufman, who we've been working together for a few years now, and Sam's an amazing leader in his own right. He's like, you're my lifting partner, man. You're my lifting partner. That's like we both are doing. We're both getting after it, but we're lifting partners. I'm like, that's the perfect analogy for how I'd say we approach these things.

We're both working hard. We're both getting after it. We're both spotting each other. We're helping each other. And that relationship can be really powerful. Speaking of a partner, you work with Brad Stolberg. First, what's it like with these two really thoughtful, smart guys writing books together? Like I initially said books are too personal.

There's no way I would ever write with somebody else. I've changed my mind on that, I think. I could see a person if I had a deep respect for their thought process and the way that they kind of behave and certainly their writing capabilities. I could see that being something I would do now. What's it like for you and Brad being, I know this most recent book, Do Hard Things, you wrote by yourself. But for some of your previous books you've written with him, what's that like? Yeah, it's wonderful. You know, and honestly, I was the same hesitations at first where I was like, I don't know, a book, like, you want it to be your voice and like you want you're very particular about it.

But it's wonderful. And the reason I'd say that, even on Do Hard Things and Brad's book on the practice of groundedness, like we would have have conversations on the book and what's included and all that stuff, even though we were writing them separately. And I think what makes it work, again, is some of the themes that we've talked about throughout this conversation is putting your ego aside, humility, like trust and openness. And if you have those things, then you can have the conversations and wrestle with the topics on ideas. And the way we work together is at first, it is just a ton and ton of conversation where we're just saying, hey, what about this idea? What do you think about this? And the other part

of it that is very important here is that we recognize and understand each other's strengths and weaknesses. So Brad is very meticulous. Like grammar loves it, very meticulous. Very meticulous. I am very like big picture. Like let's think this through. How does this apply? Like I want to get to the action step. How does this make, you know, get people better? You know, Brad is very, loves to read like ancient wisdom and all that stuff. And I like that too, but I love the science. Yeah. So many research citations in your most recent book. It's like the whole thing is packed with it, which I personally appreciate. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's, That's what I like. So we balance that out. You know, we bring those different things to the forefront on our writing. And I think that is the key. And the other thing that I'd say as well is that figure out how you're going to get

through difficult spots where you disagree. So whenever we were writing together and we'd have a section where I'd be like, you know what? I don't know about this. And Brad would be like, you know what? I really love it. We had a process, which was pretty simple. He said, if you're in love with it and this is a must have, if someone says that, we keep it, regardless of the other person. If it's a like and a kind of dislike, then what we do is we punt. We'd have these other people who would say, hey, read this

section. Tell us what you think. Is it worth it or not? And then whatever they said, we'd just go with it. So I think having some sort of process to like resolve disagreements is is important as well because they're going to happen. Would you guys divide chapters and then just go and then then you pass all? I know Brian Coppulman and David Levine, they're the writers of the TV show Billions. I talk to Brian a lot about this and you go and that's how they basically divide and then they would pass it to each other and edit each other's work and then back and forth and they're just continually passing the drafts back and forth. But somebody would usually own it and then they would just keep passing them. Is that how you guys do it?

Or what's like practically or when we're getting down to the actual tactics on, how do you guys do it? Yeah. So how we do it is the broad outline we'd outline together. Okay. So for chapters and what we're going to cover, the basic, you know, 30,000 foot view, we'd outline that together in person. Once we had that, then we would flip back and forth.

Okay. So one person would. be, you know, working on a chapter writing it, right? And then writing one chapter and then outlining another. And the other person would like flip and be outlining one, the other chapter and like writing and we'd flip back and forth. Right. So it was like, it, it was like, you know, to make it concrete, um, I might outline chapter one. and then pass that on onto Brad to write. Well, he was outlining chapter two.

And then I'd start writing chapter two. Well, he was writing chapter one. So that way we almost both had like our feel on it. We had either written or outlined the chapter, you know. And then once we got done with like those chapters, we'd flip so that we'd edit whatever the person writing. So that way it was like every single piece of the. book had like our own kind of personal, you know, stamp on it, whether it was in the words

written, the editing or the outlining, it was all part of, you know, each of our voices. What does one of your outlines look like? It's pretty deep. Could you send one to me? Could I see it? Can I see one? Yeah. Yeah.

I can send it because essentially what it is is it's, it's again, the broad outline is we know what the topic is. So it's the big topics for each chapter. And then the deep outline is, here are the potential stories we can tell. Here are the potential science that confirms or validates this. And then the person writing, what they do is they take, they look and they say, oh, let's try this story. Let's validate with this science.

Let's leave this story alone. And you essentially give the person crafting and writing, like the ability to kind of shape things and the options to do so. Love it. I think the method of, whether it's keynote speaking from a stage or writing a book, story, science, practical application, right? So what? Why should I care as the reader, as the person in the seats? Why should I care?

Those three, if you hit those and you got a good, it's a formula that I found seems to work well. I don't always get it right. Mess it up. Obviously, we all do. But I found that that seems to be a good method for thinking about how to get across a point that could drive action, right? make you think, but then actually hopefully drive you to do something that changes your life for the better. I think doing that and thinking of it that way can be so useful as you're like looking at the blank page or you're starting your outline. I think that part of it helps me get started.

Yeah, I love it. I think I think you're spot on. I think that story science and that practical application is or the so what is is how I think about organizing all all my books, all my writing, all my speaking, and it's very effective. One more question, Steve. Let's say somebody's a bit earlier in their career. We talked about how some of these people earlier in their career are way miles ahead of where I was, certainly at that age. But what are some general pieces of life slash career advice you give to somebody who

maybe has graduated college within the past couple of years? Patience. So it's very tempting to, again, just want to be like, oh, I want to take over. and conquer the world. But life unfolds how it's going to unfold. We like to try and force things, but the reality is like it's going to unfold and there's so many unpredictable paths. The other thing that I like to tell young people is diversify your skill set,

diversify your sources of meaning. Because so often we kind of think, this is my path. This is how I'm going to get locked in. this is what I'm going to do for the future. But as I reflect on my career and I'm sure you're the same way, there are so many different twists and turns that if you look back and you talk to, I don't know, 22 year old Steve, he'd be like, what are you talking about? You're going to be doing this.

You're going to be talking to these people. You're going to be coaching like, you know, executives. That's what you want to do. And, you know, 22 year old Steve would be like, no, no way. But because I was open, right, along that path and, like, saw different twists and turns and, like, had that awareness and that ability to kind of say, okay, you know, like, let's dabble in this. Let's explore it. If it doesn't work out, that's okay. So give yourself that freedom.

Don't get locked in. So true. So good, man. And I think being really focused on being excellent at your current job, your current job, your current. piece of work. Steve Martin would say, be so good they can't ignore you. He wasn't focused on an agent or publicity.

He was focused on being great at telling funny jokes on stage. And then as you said earlier, 10 years later, he was an overnight sensation, right? From the year one of going to open mics with a bartender and a person from the wait staff watching him flail around on stage trying to get five minutes to 10 years later selling out arenas. it's a focus on being so good they can't ignore you. It's really good. Steve, this is awesome. And it flew by. The book that I highly recommend is called Do Hard Things, Why We Get Resilience Wrong and the surprising science of real toughness.

I would say we covered like 6% of the book during this conversation and it was absolutely packed. So there's a lot more in my outline for this conversation that we didn't get to. That's why I think people should get the book. it's super helpful. And Steve, I just want to acknowledge how much you've helped me without even realizing it. I've followed your works for a long time now. And I'm just really grateful that we got the opportunity to talk.

And I certainly would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. Ryan, thanks so much. I love this conversation. And I love the work that you're doing, I mean, bringing these conversations to light. I mean, this is energizing. This is what it's about. I'm going to walk away from this and have to write some notes down on things that you said and try and keep improving and up my game.

Love it, man. Thanks so much. Wow, that one was packed. We may have to do a round too. We only got to a small portion of my notes. I felt like I spoke more on this one than normal. And I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. Email me, Ryan at learningleader.com.

Let me know which you think in that regard. but I find Steve to be a super fascinating guy, really thoughtful, curious, kind, really smart. I could talk to him for a while. In fact, we did for a long time after we stopped recording, mainly about writing books and the co-writing process that I'm really curious about. But if you takeaways from my notes,

quote, the best aren't concerned with being the best. They're concerned with being the best at getting better. Remember, this was about the story of the runner he was coaching, who initially was 120th in the world, eventually became number one. But he wasn't focused on that. That wasn't a goal. He was focused solely on improvement, on getting better.

He fell in love with the process of what it took to eventually become number one. Then confidence needs evidence. Acting with bravado, we haven't earned, only works on easy things. it backfires on anything truly challenging. Doing difficult things, even if you don't quite succeed at them, is how you develop real confidence. Love that part. And then mentors, how do you find a good mentor? Do interesting things.

Be open to learning and guidance. Be motivated, driven, and curious about something. Put your ego aside. Do great quality work. Those are the behaviors and the actions and the mindset of someone. who earns and deserves great mentors. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the word and telling a friend or two.

Hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Steve Magnus. I think it will help you become a much more effective leader. And because you continue to do that and you write reviews on Apple Podcast and rate the show, hopefully five stars, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon.

Can't wait.