The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 493: Patrick Lencioni - Becoming More Humble, Leading With Curiosity, & Understanding Your Working Genius

Episode Date: October 2, 2022

Text Hawk to 66866 to become part of Mindful Monday. Join 10's of thousands of learning leaders from all over the world better understand how you can become a more effective leader. Text Hawk to 66866 for more... Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12    https://twitter.com/RyanHawk12 My guest: Patrick Lencioni has written 14 books on business management, particularly in relation to team management. He is best known as the author of The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, a popular business fable that explores work team dynamics and offers solutions to help teams perform better. He's also written The Ideal Team Player, The Advantage, The Motive, and his latest book is called The Six Types of Working Genius.  Notes: Pat loves The Pat McAfee Show because of their candor, humor, and authenticity.  "Humility is a virtue. You can practice it." "Seek first to understand prior to trying to be understood." Be curious. "If we don't understand them, we judge them." The opposite of judgment is curiosity. When you're humble, there is no sense of entitlement. Good teammates? "They take ownership of their mistakes and work to correct them." Must take ownership of it to improve. The Ideal Team Player -- Humble, Hungry, Smart. The Five Dysfunctions Of A Team: Absence of trust - unwilling to be vulnerable within the group Fear of conflict - seeking artificial harmony over constructive passionate debate Lack of commitment - feigning buy-in for group decisions creates ambiguity throughout the organization Avoidance of accountability - ducking the responsibility to call peers on counterproductive behavior which sets low standards Inattention to results - focusing on personal success, status, and ego before team success The Six Types of Working Genius: Wonder – People with this genius can't help but question whether things could be better in the world around them. They are troubled whenever they see unmet potential, and they are constantly curious and on the lookout for the need to change something. Invention – This type of genius is all about creativity. People who have it, love, to generate new ideas and solutions to problems and are even comfortable coming up with something out of nothing. Discernment – People with this type of genius have a natural ability when it comes to evaluating or assessing a given idea or situation and providing guidance. They have good instincts, gut feel, and judgment about the subtleties of making decisions that integrate logic, common sense and human needs. Galvanizing – This type of genius is about bringing energy and movement to an idea or decision. People who have it like to initiate activity by rallying people to act and inspiring them to get involved. Enablement – People with this type of genius are quick to respond to the needs of others by offering their cooperation and assistance with a project, program, or effort. They naturally provide the human assistance that is required in any endeavor, and not on their own terms. Tenacity – This type is about ensuring that a given project, program, or effort is taken to completion and achieves the desired result. People who have this genius push for required standards of excellence and live to see the impact of their work. Pat's areas of working genius: "I am naturally good at and drawn to what we call Invention and Discernment, I like to come up with new, original ideas, even when it's not what's called for.  And I love to use my intuition to evaluate and assess ideas and plans to see what would be best.  My areas of frustration are Tenacity and Enablement, meaning I struggle to push projects through to completion after the initial excitement wears off, and I have a hard time providing assistance to others on their terms. That doesn't mean I can't do those things, because all of us have to do things we don't like or aren't good at sometimes. But if I'm in a situation where people are relying on me as their primary source of enablement and tenacity, that's not good for me or for them in the long run." Pat is a "discriminating ideator." My areas of working genius: Discernment and Tenacity. The assessment says: "You are good at and enjoy using your intuition and instincts to evaluate and assess ideas or plans, and pushing projects and tasks through to completion to ensure that the desired results are achieved."  "You are what we call a judicious accomplisher."

Welcome to The Learning Leaders Show, presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text, Hawk to 666866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email for me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right. You'll also receive details about how my book, The Pursuit of Excellence, will help you become a more effective leader. Text, Hawk to 66866.

Now, on to tonight's featured leader. One of my most treasured friends and mentors, Pat Lenschoni is the founder and CEO of the Table Group, and he is the author of 12 bestselling books, including the five dysfunctions of a team, the advantage, the ideal team player. And its latest is called the six types of working genius. During this conversation, we discuss how Pat has reinvented himself and his business multiple times and how this could impact you in your career. Then the importance of understanding your gifts as well as the gifts of your colleagues and even more importantly, your family members.

And then we open the conversation talking about. two of the most important traits in a leader, authenticity and humility. And I think you'll like how Pat, he started talking, I just hit record, and you'll sense that here in a second. This conversation should feel very much like a fly on the wall recording. I hope you like it. Ladies and gentlemen, it's the great Pat Lanchone. The reason why I like watching your brother, and I'm, you know, I'm 57 years old, I like sports and everything, but I think their demographic is probably a little younger than me.

But they're so, like, they're so real. And it made me talk, I was, my wife and I were talking about this because she was watching it with me too. I was going, these guys are great, aren't they? But it's because they really just, and they kind of talk to each other that way, too. I'm glad you like it. It's, there's like this winter little, it's not really little anymore. It's this certain section of the internet that seems to be into their work. I'm so happy that it's going well because post NFL life, it's hard to kind of figure out what you're going to do.

And maybe we'll even get into it with some of this working genius stuff. But AJ and Pat seem to go so well together because they're just so different. Their personalities are so wildly different. So it's awesome to see how they interact. And I've gotten to spend time. So we went to Lake Tahoe this year together. He plays in the Celebrity Golf Tournament. And we've gone every year.

And this is Pat's first year. He was Pat McAfee. I know, Pat Lynch, but he was nice enough to kind of give us a ride out there on his plane. And we stayed in a nice home together for the week. Him and he brought some of the guys from the show. And the interactions literally with not only AJ and Pat, but all the other guys who are a part of the show are the exact same. See, and you can tell.

Yes. I think that authenticity, and I know that's a word that's used a lot, is the new currency. Yeah. And what's funny is they talk. about sports and football, and that's not my life. Yeah. And but I still like, it's like Dave Ramsey is a friend of mine, you know? Yeah. And I don't really love everything about personal finance. I don't need to talk about that, but I love the way he interacts with people. Yeah. And there's something about watching people authentically, genuinely give each other advice and, and take things apart and talk about

things. Yeah. That is naturally a draw. And here's the other thing about your brother. He won't say anything if he doesn't have anything to say. For sure. That is so rare in the world. Yeah. He gets very, it's funny, we talk about this privately too, but and he says that on the show, he gets very, he'll say it like, I don't have to have an opinion about everything because there's a lot of things that I don't know about and I quite frankly don't care about. So in that case, I'm just going to stay quiet. I'm like, yes, we all should probably do that more, you know. Oh my. It is so anti the TV generation where the talking head just always has to talk.

Yeah. And, um, and, um, and, you know. You know what else? You know what he did the other day? I love this. They were talking over their guest. And he was like, he was like, hey, you guys, be quiet. I want to hear what he has to say. And he was totally genuine. He was a little annoyed. And I thought, this is great. This is like sitting around a living room with somebody. Brothers who aren't afraid to kind of disagree. So anyway, for whatever it's worth, me and my wife enjoy listening to them. And then last night, my 16 year old son stayed up with me. And what did we watch? We watched a clip on YouTube of of those guys again. Oh, man. I wasn't even interested in what the guest was talking about, but it's just so fun to watch them interact. Well, I'll make sure to send this clip to them because regardless of how big the show gets and how it's amazing for them now that it's it's, Pat's become like a legitimate employer for a lot of people and really takes care of all of his guys, a lot of loyalty. But I think the reason it works, one, is he is supremely talented. Pat McAfee is and loves surrounding himself with people that will be real and authentic. And they're also kind of fearless to just go for it.

I think that's the thing. Yeah. But they're fearless but not unkind. Right. Right. And you're just seen like the people in Tahoe. So this is a celebrity tournament like Colin Jost and some of the like, some of the big time celebrities, Justin Timberlake and all these out there.

they come up to him and say, I would love to come on your show. Oh, I love what you do. I love what. And he's just like, it's just amazing to see. It gets how he's like super grateful and saying, oh my God,

thank you so much. I had no idea you even knew I existed. Are you kidding me? Like, oh, Colin, you're far too smart. Your brain's way too big. You could ever be at our show.

Like stuff like that. Like, it's really funny. It's really cool to see the interactions. Do you know what, you know, so the root of all sin is pride. The antidote to pride is humility.

Humility is the most attractive virtue. And you know, we learn this. If it's real, it's got to be real, though. Oh, it has to be. Yeah. And Jesus, somebody explained this to me one day was the most attractive human being ever to walk the face of the earth. I mean, he's God and man. But it was because people are drawn to people who are humbled. Now, people don't realize humility is not like false modesty, nor is it like being intimidated by others. Pat McAfee is both, he's hilarious. He'll say difficult things, but it never feels like he's boosting himself. Right.

And he's not trying to take it out on somebody else, but he's willing to go, that seems crazy, man. Why would anybody do that? And you go, wait, he really means that. And then there's your brother who's not saying something or when he finally weighs in, it's really thoughtful. And you thought, and it's attractive. I want to sit in the room with those guys.

Yeah. And just experience that. There's not enough humility and authenticity in the world. So I don't know. I can't believe my wife and I, my 16 year old son. Who would have thought that the former punch? of the, and I knew he was a crazy guy when he was a punter. Yeah.

But this is different. And I hope he, he needs to protect his humility like it's all the, the, all the value he has in the world. Yeah. Because the moment that a person loses that, and we could talk about athletes. Sure. There are some athletes that you would think would be really popular that are not right now. And it's because people see through it and they realize it's about them.

And so anyway, I just love it. I will pass that on to them if I will. I'll make sure we clip this and send it to them. It's really neat. But it actually made me think of you. So it would have been easy for you after five dysfunctions and all the stuff that you've done. You've kind of, you're still. That book still, I check bestseller list, you know, because it's like for guest ideas.

I'm going to say who's written bestselling books. That's one of the things that I do every week. To write a book 100 years ago, it feels like, and it's still every week, people are. are buying it. And so it would be easy for you to say, I'm kind of a genius. Look at this. This stuff I've done, it sells over and over. Everybody wants it. People are banging down my door to come speak at their event, too money for me to even do. Everyone's buying my books. The working genius stuff, I know I talked to Cody about the success of that every single day, which blows my mind, by the way, which we'll get into. But how do you stay humble? I mean, what keeps you humble when

you have all of these, the whole world is telling you, Pat, we're kind of like elevating you above us because we're all buying everything you put out. Well, so there's a few different answers to that. One of which actually ties to working genius. I'll start with that one and just say, everyone has gifts and people look at me and go, wow, that's amazing that you've done that. And I'm like, no, actually, that was a gift that was given to me. It comes very naturally to me. So for me to claim, if something's a gift, it was given to you. So to claim it. So to claim it as your own would be like looking the gift giver in the face and say, no, this is me, not you. And so I really think God gave me gifts and I am thankful that I get to use those in the service of

others. Now, the fact that it brings me some attention or admiration is wonderful as long as I realized it's not about me. Because going down that path is empty and dark. So I would say it's my faith, knowing that this is a gift, not something that I deserve. my my experience of watching other people lose themselves in lack of humility. And even, even when you're a kid, when I like tried to make attention on me, ultimately there's this darkness at the end of that. Where does that go? So I think it's my, my growing up,

I grew up pretty poor. We were pretty undernoticed my family. So I didn't have the sense of entitlement. But I am, I am so repulsed by any time when people talk to me and, and, it there's this temptation to build yourself up and I'm like no that is that is that's my death now I can never go there so it's not like I'm a wonderful person for being humble it's just like humility is just true and I am truly no better than anybody else I just happen to have a few gifts that in this time you know Ryan 150 years ago if I were born I would be worthless they'd be like okay somebody just robbed the bank we got to go get those guys what's pat going to do I don't know tell us the story I guess you know I'm terrible I can't build a house I can't farm so I would

just born in a time where people liked people thinking about management and leadership and writing stories and it's a gift and I'm glad I can use it but I am no better than anyone else. What are those? What are your greatest gifts? What would you say? You know, I think, and here's the funny thing too, Ryan, I think sometimes our gifts come through our wounds. Because, you know, I really do believe God brings good things out of difficult situations. Most people who've had a real life know that like, oh my gosh, some of the biggest challenges are where the biggest blessings came. And so I think that I naturally have the ability. I have an intuition.

In working genius, we talk about discernment. So my gifts are invention and discernment, which means I love to come up with new ideas. I can't help it. And I'm really good at looking like at 10 ideas and going, those two are good ones and those other ones aren't. I'm good at like recognizing like not in a linear way, but like using my intuition. to evaluate things. And like everyone who knows me in life will joke and they'll go, I'm a really good guesser.

Like people go, well, what do you think that is? And I'll go, I don't know. I think it's this. And they'll go, how did you know? And I'm like, that's one of the things I'm good at. Now, you know what I'm terrible at? I'm terrible about at finishing things. I'm terrible at precision.

If any kind of work involves precision and doing things really carefully and to the specifications, I am miserable. You know, I'm not good at looking three, four. Matt, my son is great at chess and he can destroy me because he sees things that I don't see. And at my age, I've learned to celebrate the fact that I'm terrible at things and other people are great at them. And I take joy in that rather than saying, how come I'm not good at that? So I love to golf and I'm terrible. And it is so fun because if I hit a great shot or have a great hole,

I feel like Tiger Woods. But when I'm with other people and every one of their shots is great, I'm like just an admiration of that. I don't feel like it detracts from me. Somebody once said that the true definition of humility is to look at a cathedral and take pride in it as though you built it yourself. And so I think that I'm okay with my gifts because I know what I don't have and I celebrate others who do have those. And so that's a long answer to a short question. I hope it makes sense. Can humility be a learned skill?

Oh, most definitely. It's a virtue. And virtue is all about practicing something, valuing it and practicing. In fact, nobody is naturally humble. Either something happened in their lives that humbled them, or they went down a path where they realized the end game of ego is dark. And they've said, that is not the path. So I don't think that no one is naturally humble.

We don't come out of the womb that way. We come out of the womb kind of, hey, what about me? And it's through life experiences and either really good examples of other people. And it gets back to what we were talking about before. When you see a genuinely humble person, you're drawn to them. You want to be like them. And getting back to like your brother, I don't, if he never played football, but he was just a guy on a show and he sat there silently when he didn't have anything.

thing to say and then weighed in and he didn't have to promote himself, I'd be like, I want to be like that guy. So I'm like the anti-fan. I'm not like, gee, your brother was a professional football player. I'm like, I don't care what he is. I like how he is. Yeah. I think a lot of that actually it's cool to meet your son here prior to recording because huge credit needs to be given to our parents who still are huge, huge influences in us to, I think, lead with. kindness, others focused, and making and normalizing that. So what I mean by that is you don't know it's special or that it's or that it's anything above and beyond if it's normal for you.

So if it's normal when your parents are going to like, let's take it the other end. If they're like do drugs, treat people poorly, blame, complain, that becomes normal for you as a kid. And so that's what you probably will do versus if your parents work really hard. hard, are very kind, giving, right, humble, that becomes normal for you. And so you're just like, well, that's what I guess we do, right? And so when you then go out into the world and you kind of leave the nest, you behave, most people at least, you behave kind of to what's normal to you. And I think that's my mom and my dad, who, again, I just sat next to my mom for three hours last

on in my daughter's volleyball game. Like, we're still super close. And I think that's, that's what I think about a lot. I'm sure you do too. As a husband and a dad of like, what am I making, how am I modeling the behavior that I want to see in the world? That's everything to me. That's what it's all about. It is. And I want to put a little spin on that because so like you and me both, we want so badly to be good parents. Yeah. And so when we make mistakes or when we have our own issues, we are terrified of how that's going to affect our kids. And a woman, her name is Lisa Brannickmeier, she's just an amazing woman. She said, Pat, you have to realize even your, even your shortcomings shape your children. Because I love that you said that about Matt.

Somebody else told me that the other day. They said, you know, when I realized you were a great guy is when I met your son. And what I want to say is that is so wonderful to hear. But here's the thing. My shortcomings, he had to deal with. He's actually now as a young man. modeling for me the things that I wasn't good at. He's teaching me how to be even more, like more positive sometimes. He can stop me. We work together and go, you're being kind of negative today. You're being really down on that.

And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I am. Because he even sees my shortcomings. And when you see your children do the things you did well or modeling after you, that's great. But when they actually exceed you in the things you weren't good at, that is like mind-blowing. And so I'm literally, now he still has things to learn for me, and I have things to learn from him.

But it is, that's one of the, that's probably one of the most amazing experiences of my life is admiring my kids for things that they're good at that I wasn't. What, for them, how was it, you're famous in a certain part of the, the ecosystem?

Yeah, I'm a funky, well-known guy. Like in some places I'm a rock star, in little places. In most places, I'm not. How was it for them? How was it for them having Pat Lynch as their dad? Well, I'll tell you the honest truth. I think that it was good in some cases and bad in some cases. Yeah. And it was confusing in some cases too. But I never wanted them to feel like I thought I was important.

But I wanted them to experience the benefits of it. But and I whiffed on that sometimes. I think they were kind of like oftentimes guarded against it. And then I'd go someplace and people would know me. And they'd go, what's the deal? What was that guy talking about? Oh, he reads my books and saw me. And they're like, you're kidding. And it was like Aaron Rogers read one of my books.

The year that the Packers turned around their season, they were doing terrible. And they asked him after the season. I don't know Aaron Rogers. And he said, how did you, they asked him how he turned the season around. He goes, well, I read this book, Five Disfunctions of a team. And my kids are like, wait, no, no, no. And they're like, I haven't even read that book. And so I think for them it was kind of weird because there were times it was good because

they had access to certain things. And there were times too when I think, I have a son right now who's 20 and he goes to Auburn, great kid. He is for the first time away from me and away from the family. Everyone that knows him there knows him just for him. He's rediscovering that the reason why people love him is not because of who is older brothers or his dad is, it's for him. So there's good news and bad news.

I'm sure if you talk to, I can't imagine what it's like to be Tom Brady's son or, you know, because they're wondering like, is this about me or is it about him? So sometimes I wish I had been an unknown office worker someplace, so none of that would have affected them. But anything, that's it. I love talking to you about this.

It's pretty cool. I forget we're recording a podcast here. How do you like I'm a little of friends therapy? I'll publicly say, man, just how much I love you and appreciate you. I really mean that because of I sent you a text like, I forget when it was, a couple months ago said like, hey, man, I'm really thinking through how to build this business. And I think you called me in three minutes after that. And then Cody and I set up a call your COO.

We spoke for 90 minutes the next day with, you know, there's nothing in it for you. You're just doing it because you're a genuine good guy. And same with the people on your team. And I think that should be recognized. that should be acknowledged publicly because you know what it does pat that i think is so cool it inspires me to do the same for other people not only one but like a lot i got a call i got a call from a kid who's a senior in college and he's thinking about what he wants to do he's got his own little podcast and he's doing other things and i was like what you know how did pat treat me when i've

made these calls like i like to try to do that for him and so like call him immediately talk through everything invite him to this little event that I'm doing, like for free, obviously, and all these things. And it's just like the cool thing about it is I know I'm not the only one you do that for, obviously. But it has this like this ripple effect where it inspires other people to want to help others too because they're like, what? So I just think it's a neat thing to talk about. And maybe us sharing that or me sharing that will make other people want to do it too because they hear Pat Linchone does it. You know, Dave Ramsey was the guy who's done that for me. Really? It's like I could never understand why. It's like, he, he just liked me and he wanted to help me. And he just offers that. And, and, and I was like, wow, this is, and, and he really cares. And so, and I think there's when you genuinely care for somebody, like, I don't look very often, but if I'm really bored and I'm an airplane and I have Wi-Fi, I'm like, what should I do? Oh, I'll see how my podcast is doing. And I remember recently I looked it up and I think your podcast was ahead of mine or really up close to mine. And, and I was like so happy.

You know, like, that's so great. He's doing fantastic. And it's fun when somebody, like, I love it when like a quarterback, a rookie comes in and his second year takes over the team. And the guy that's been supplanted, but now he's as, it's like rooting for the guy. Everyone is like, I love that guy. Like, I wonder what Adam Thielen. It seems like he's really happy for Justin Jefferson.

It does. That's so cool. It is, man. It makes me love Adam Thielen more. It doesn't. It also makes me think if I was placing a bet on a person of how they're going to be for the rest of their life, I would place a bet on a guy like Adam Thieland if he seems. I mean, I don't know him either, genuinely excited for the young guy who's taking over the league. So those are the people that I would bet on that get genuinely pumped because I think when we're building or who, like,

our own kind of board of advisors, the people we surround ourselves with. One of the key attributes, I think, in those people is that you are both genuinely rooting for each other, like genuinely, not like, you know, fake clap, but like you really, you're there for them when they mess up and you're like, no judgment zone. Hey, man, you can call me. Oh, I really stepped in it. This was a stupid thing I did. I got you. I got you. It's okay. And then when, you know, the book hits the list, you're the first one texting and calling them saying, And dude, that was awesome and you're genuinely excited for him. I think that's the way we should be.

Absolutely. And I don't know if it's a chicken or the egg. I feel like that's how we should be. But it's the people that it's easy to do that with. It's almost an indication of their genuineness. Yeah. Because there are other people I've met that are kind of phony or competitive. I don't like when people are competing with me.

I think in life, I love in sports when you're competing. Right. But not in life. And so when I know somebody's competing with me and they feel threatened by me, it's hard to root for them. And I think I should be better than that. But it's like, it's just not easy. But then other people in life that you just want them to exceed you.

You're like, I would be proud to know that a friend of mine is doing better than me. And it is true. You know what I just realized I should do? I should ask a real fast question. My son happens to be our podcast producer and he helps with all these. Growing up being a son of a mildly famous dad, good, bad and different mix. Oh, you're asking him right now. Yeah.

He said it was a mix. A mix. What's the good? What's the bad? What was the good and the bad? It was weird. It still is. It's not like you're done, dude.

Like you're in the middle of it. Now he works with me. He knows it's all a farce. You know, he works here. In fact, it's so funny to have your son work here. Just earlier today, we just got an argument. And we all agreed in the office. If you weren't his dad, that wouldn't have happened.

Because like when I'm bad at technology, he gets so frustrated. it at me. You know, imagine teaching your grandma how to use the computer, you know, it's just like, oh, and that's how he is with me. And I'm like, I don't understand Instagram versus TikTok, but he's like, oh, you're such a dope dad, you know, so.

But that shows how close you are. I think if you, if you, we still really make fun of my dad a lot. He knows it, but I think we should, you should start to worry when we stop, because, which I have no intention to ever stop making fun of, but we're on the golf course and we don't make fun of the fact that he's hitting the hybrid

from 140, then we, you got to be concerned if we stop. I do that too. I hit in the middle of the green. They're like, what'd you use, dad from 100? I'm like, eight iron. I'm like, you should be using your 56. You should be using your pitching wedge. Exactly, exactly.

So I was reading through a new book, which is kind of cool to see that this come out in book form because we did a podcast about this couple of years ago, the six types of working genius. long before the book was even written. I think it was just the, the assessment. But I'm curious, at the very beginning, I see fable style, which I think we, we love about you. Jeremiah Octavian Brooks, J.O.B. Talk to me about this main character, nickname Bull Brooks, but Jeremiah Octavian Brooks and how this whole thing came

about in fable form. So, you know, I originally started writing fables because the first time I came up with a theory around being a CEO or a leader, somebody said, you should write a book. And then I got depressed and I thought, man, I bought so many business books that I never finished. And I don't want to write a book and have everybody read the first three chapters and put it down. And so I thought, well, I used to be a screenwriter for fun when I got out of college. And so I said, I'm going to use my passion for writing fiction. And I'm going to write a story that hopefully people will read. And I just talked to a guy the other day and I've talked to so many who say, I don't like to read.

women come up and be and go my husband hasn't read a book since college but he reads your books and because I keep them short I make it interesting I want people to turn the page maybe that's why Aaron Rogers read the darn thing you know so the point is I love doing it that way because people learn better from stories in this story there is some autobiographical nature to it not not necessarily but it's about how I came to this and and I wanted him to be a very flawed character I wanted him to I wanted us to go man he struggled he he he screwed up he had success he had failure he frustrated his wife he frustrated his colleagues and but he was real and he was pursuing a better understanding of himself and others and so I think I have a belief Ryan that every great story is

about people who are real and the good characters have flaws and the bad characters even have some redeeming qualities. I'm not a big anti-hero fan. I hate how we're making bad people, the main characters and things, you know. But every human being has different sides. And I don't want people to read a book and go, oh, this is about a perfect person.

I want them to read a book and go, oh, I can relate to this and relate to the characters. And so Bull Brooks was just a well-meaning guy who a few times in his career thought he was about to go over the edge because he didn't know why he wasn't happy. With the working genius assessment coming out well before the book and in my conversations with Cody, I mean, it seems like it's absolutely taking over in the business world as far as people, the amount of people taking the assessment and implementing it.

And I've personally worked and have clients that I work with that I've sent this to after our last podcast and there now it's like fully ingrained in their culture, which is really cool. I'm so glad to hear that. How has it been doing it almost backwards where you built the assessment, you built the, you came up with the ideas first and then writing the book. Second, like, how has it been for you guys business-wise doing the working genius in the way that you do? That's a great question.

As I think about it right now, I think it made for a much better book. Yeah, I bet. Because now that we've had almost two years of experience with people using it, we learned through that. Now, thanks me to God. And Matt, my son was one of the people that helped develop it, along with Tracy and Cody. And we learned by working with people and getting their feedback. And more than a quarter of a million people, in fact, over 300,000 people have done this. And it's growing every day, even before we've really launched the book and the whole program. So we had two years, and the face validity of this was so high. And so we have written a better book because it's been based on the first two

years of experience with this rather than writing the book and two years later going, oh, if we'd known that, we'd have put that in there too. So, and I think it's also been very exciting. We've never been more excited about a book launch in my 25 years of business than this because I think we've seen how many people have had their lives changed by this. What are some ways people have had their lives change? Oh, this is my favorite thing in the world to talk about it. I'm so thankful to God for this. So I can't tell you how many people have called us or written to us and said, I was about to fire someone. And I always liked this person, but it looked like they weren't able to be successful. And they did their working genius. And I looked,

and I had them in the wrong job. So many people were about to let be let go and feel rejected. And their managers just said, wait a second, these are your geniuses. You should be in this job. I'm asking you to do something that you were not intended to do. And so when people have their jobs and their careers saved by their managers better understanding them, that's one of my favorite things. I've, yeah, go ahead. The other thing is we've had people call in and say, I felt guilty. Like we had these pastors from churches call in to say, two guys had this.

I felt like a fraud for 25 years being a pastor because I can't write a sermon or a homily. And I thought, if I'm, I must be a bad pastor. I'm a fake. I shouldn't have gone into this. And then they took this and they said, I don't have wonder or invention as my genius. That's what you need to write a good homily. But this guy that works for me has that I can ask him to help me.

I love counseling and helping people inter individually, which is a huge part of being a pastor. That's what kind of pastor they were. So what we realize is nobody is perfect. You know, there's NFL coaches that are great at like discipline and motivation and building a family. And there's other coaches that are great at, designing a game plan and intellectually going through the draft.

Both of them can be fantastic coaches if they realize they need to work in their genius and let people around them fill in their gaps. So there's a lot of people that have felt guilty in their career for not being perfect, and now they understand why. Let's go through them real quick. Okay. Well, not even real quick. Let's hit them, the six types of working genius.

Can you walk us through them with a brief description of each of the six? Yeah, and I'll try to go fast. And the good news is there are only six. And these are the six activities that running a football team, launching a church, rolling out a new software product, starting a podcast, you need all six to do anything in life. And each of us only has two that we're really, really great at. So that means we have to have other people around us to do the others. So the first genius is the genius of wonder. There are people in the world who have a God-given ability to ponder things, to notice things, to ask questions.

to see potential that's unrealized. They're the person who's constantly saying, is this the best we can do? Do you think there's a better way? Do we really understand our customers? Could this podcast be better? This whole thing came about when my colleague, Amy, said to me, Pat, why are you like this?

Why do you get so frustrated sometimes? And then you're so happy other times. And it was her asking that question that began this whole thing. The next, and that's a genius. My wife has this genius. two of my sons have this genius. Then the next genius that follows wonder is invention, the genius of coming up with a new idea.

So when Amy said, why are you like this? I was like, I don't know, but I'm going to figure it out. And when people said, wouldn't it be great if there was an idea, a product out there or a book about this? And I'm like, I'm going to figure that out. I naturally wake up every morning, whether it's needed or not, wanting to invent. It's a natural gift. coming up with something, I don't even like too much context. I like to do it out of nowhere.

When somebody says a blank slate or an empty whiteboard, that excites me. Other people, that's not a gift. My son Matthew, who helped us do this, he said, if you ever asked me to invent, dad, I'm going to die. It's one of his frustrations. He's not good at it. And that's okay. So invention is the next one. So it kind of starts up at 50,000 feet. Your head in the clouds, like, why is the world like this? Invention is down at 40,000. feet and it's like, hey, I think I figured it out. The next one is the genius of discernment. Discernment are people that have gut feel. And they really can, they have this, they think in patterns in integratively and intuitively, and they have instincts. They just, you ask them their

opinion about something and they're usually right. And it's not based on their, they're, they're, you know, they're not experts. They don't have data. They just have this way of seeing things and coming to the right decisions. I love to talk about Tracy in our office, who was one of our founders. Tracy, and she said even as a little kid, her friends would ask her for her advice. I'll say to my wife, where should we go on vacation? Or she'll say, should we refinance the house? Or does this look good? Does this coat and tie look good? And she'll say, ask Tracy. Because if Tracy thinks something's right, we have a really high degree of confidence. And you know people like that. Yep. And there's other people like, hey, don't ask me.

If I'm not an expert on it, let's go find that person. So discernment is the ability to evaluate something. So somebody asks a question, somebody invents an idea. The discerner comes along and gives feedback and says, terrible idea, good idea, pretty good idea, let's tweak it some more. Then comes the genius of galvanizing. That's the fourth one. So it goes, W-I-D-G. And the galvanizer is the person who loves to.

They get joy and energy from rallying the truth. They love to get things moving to remind people to push things forward. They wake up every morning going, I can't wait to have a meeting and to get people in a room and remind them why this is so important. Now, I'm pretty good at that. I don't love doing it every day. For 22 years in my business, I was doing it every day and it was burning me out. And that's how we figured out this model. When Amy said, why are you like that?

And I was like, oh my gosh, every day I come to work and I want to invent and discern. And I'm galvanizing. So Cody, you know, who you've talked to, we did, we looked at him and we said, he loves to galvanize. So I said, you'll be the chief galvanizing officer. And that doesn't detract from me being the CEO. It allows me. Now, I have to do it sometimes.

None of us get to do things we, we love all the time. But he wakes up every day wanting to do that. And I gave him permission to be that person. So he's super happy. I'm happier. The company's getting more done because we're working in our genius. And Cody's your C-O-O just so. He's our C-O.

He's the guy who rallies people out in the market. He goes out into the world and gets people excited about what we're doing. And he rallies our troops as well. The next genius is a very important and interesting one that people who have it don't think is a genius. It's the genius of enablement, which people think is a bad word because it's like you don't want to enable a drug addict or an alcoholic to do something. But enabling people to do good things is a total genius. And people who have this think they're just nice. because they're the person that when you go to them and say,

we have this new opportunity and so we need people to help us. They're the ones that go, I'm in. What do you need for me to do? And they help you on the terms that you need, not on their terms, right? They're the people that flex and love to help. They're the offensive linemen who says, man, I'm going to block whatever you need. And when the quarterback goes, that guy's blitzing, he's like, no problem. He doesn't go into the huddle and go, I want the ball.

He says, I'll do whatever you need because they're like the consummate team players, but they doubt themselves. They don't think it's a genius. They think they're just easily convinced, but it's a gift. And so enablement is wonderful. The last genius, though, is critical and that's tenacity. And those are people that don't just like to help or not necessarily help. They like to finish things. They're the one that says, no, I am going to dog this.

until it's across the finish line, it meets the standards, and if there's an obstacle, I will blow through it. They might not even like to help people. They just hate the idea of something not getting finished. So that's where it goes from 50,000 feet down to five feet, the person with tenacity. So those are the wonder, invention, discernment, galvanizing, enablement, and tenacity. Two are your working genius, which where you get joy and energy. Two are your working frustration totally drains you of joy and energy.

The two in the middle you can do for a while, but you shouldn't spend all your time in those areas. My two areas of working genius, discernment and tenacity. And the tenacity one's funny because it's interesting to the difference in you and me in that regard because I am the ultimate, like, I can't live without finishing the thing. Whatever the thing I've made a commitment, like I just can't do it. I feel like I'm like lying or cheating or I just whatever it is. So that tenacity makes so much sense with the finisher, as you call it. Like you have to finish the thing or you or you just can't you can't do anything else. And it was an eye opening and enlightening kind of term to bring to life because I'm like, oh, exactly.

It makes so much sense. You're what's called. By the way, we, we, there's 16. There's six types. So that means there's 15 combo. So your two geniuses put together, the D and the T, we call that the judicious accomplisher, which means is they have really good judgment about what needs to get done. They can look at something and go, that's the most important thing.

And then they will not rest until it gets done. Yeah. And they're all very wonder, but that's a great practical, but also you're good at seeing the right strategy and then actually following through. Yeah. The difficulty for you is that you're angst before. it gets finished is very high. Yes. And so, and if you're working on a team with people, and they're not pulling their weight. And it's right to make people pull their weight,

but you can get really frustrated when people are not like, you're not living up to the right standards, which is a good thing to do to hold them accountable, but it's particularly annoying to your type, which is a great thing on a team. But you're like, dude, you better step up because if this doesn't get done because you didn't help, I'm going to be pissed. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think as a quarterback, this made a lot of sense where, and it's funny you mentioned, my brother. We talked about this when we recorded a podcast together because we got to play together for two years in high school.

The only two years in the same team. And I don't, you know, I remember us, you know, winning a lot and doing well. He played both ways. I played quarterback. What high school did you go to? Centerville High School in Ohio. Oh, that's right. Yeah.

And I remember, he just said the thing I remember most was the fact that that, like, Not everybody loved you because you were not, you were, you were very hard on people. Very hard on guys. If they didn't live up to the standard that you set for yourself and you set the same standard for everybody else. And when they did not practice at that level and certainly play at that level, it wasn't pretty all the time. And I was like, that's a good point because I don't, I don't really live like that anymore as much. I mean, with myself, but it's, it's interesting. Well, you round out the edges, but here's the deal.

As a quarterback, your job was to. lead them to win and to do well. Right. Now, the truth of the matter is, had you been the nicest guy in the world, and they were sloppy and it didn't follow through into goodness on the field, they weren't going to lie. They might have kind of enjoyed you, but they wouldn't have respected you, and they would not have gotten a lot out of it. So the point there is, so you can round out the rough edges.

But we have DTs. By the way, this is absolutely predictable, who work in our organization. And they say, do you want to dislike me because I dog you too much? about this or because I make you do this because one of those two things is going to happen. Can you choose your poison? And we laugh about it because they are tough on us. And but you know something? We love it because as a result we do well. And knowing that that's your working genius, you know, Ryan, you could go back in the old days and go, you guys, this is how God wired me. And if you want a quarterback who's going to make good decisions and push you, you're going

to love working with me. But if you want a guy who's going to do whatever you tell me to do and just encourage you even if you're not working hard, that's not me. Yeah. So you, you, uh, when you put two together and then you get their name. So what can you name your two and then what your name is? Yes. So I'm an inventor discerner. So I'm good at coming up with new ideas and evaluating them.

And I'm called the discriminating, um, ideator. Hmm. Discriminating me. That's not discriminating, but discriminating like like I come up with new ideas, but I don't come up with a lot of really crazy. ones. People all, if I throw five ideas on the board, four of them are probably pretty close. And people are like, Ben Pat, you're inventive, but, and I have good friends. One of my best friends in the world, he's a WI, a Wunderer inventor. He throws 10 ideas on the board and only two of them are good.

And he knows it's like, I'm throwing crap against the wall. Let's see what sticks. But when I'm coming up with an idea, and even when I'm writing my books, like you were asked about my character, I'm thinking, oh, I should make him this. Wait a second. And I'm correcting myself. as I go because I have good discernment. So I'm the discriminating ideate. You can pick any other two types. My son Matt, so one other guy in the room here, he's a wonder and discernment. So that means he's got his head in the cloud. He's always pondering things. He's noticing things. And wonderers are very deep. We don't even see it on the outside. They're like stuff is going on in their mind that we don't even know about. They're just constantly, why is that the way it is? Why is that

the way that is? They really are deep thinkers and a discerner. So he has good judgment, but he questions himself all the time. Landing on it on a, like if you ask him, he's what's called the, what do we call it now? The contemplative counselor. They give you the best advice, but they're not going to stand up in front of a hundred people and say, this is the right thing to do and I'm sure of it. they're going to say, well, there's a few different ways to look at this. I've really thought this through. His advice is always fantastic, but he's never overselling it. In fact, he often undersells it because he's constantly wondering, well, maybe there's a different way to look at it.

Well, maybe that's not exactly right. And it's crazy when we meet other people with the same type that we've never met before. They can talk to Matt, and they're both like going, oh, my gosh, isn't it crazy how we doubt ourselves? And then we turn out to be right? So the contemplative counselor, every one of these combinations has a name. Now that you have a, it's becoming a family business, there are so many of these out in the world. I'm sure a lot of them follow your work. Have you shifted to like being able to speak from firsthand experience about what it's like to work with family?

And maybe you're giving counsel or advice or even being hired by these businesses that are that are kind of family operated? Well, just two days ago, I was with a wonderful company. The CEO is the younger brother and the founder and the main guy is the older brother. And they were like, yeah, we want to talk about that. And that's fun. But what I think is even better is that this applies to your family. Yes. Because like my wife and I, I just wrote an article about marriage.

And the title was marriage is a lot of work, which sounds kind of negative. Like it's a lot of work. No, what I mean is when you're married, you and your wife are spending most of your time co-working. You know, you're getting your kids to things. You're planning a vacation. You're maintaining the house. You're figuring out how you're going to pay for things. You're running the bills. You're doing all that. So you're working together. And so if you don't know what your working geniuses are, my wife and I, our marriage changed completely when we did this. We have a good marriage, a really good marriage. But we would argue about the same things all the time. And it was because neither of us

have tenacity. So my wife is a wonderer and an inventor. She's what's called the creative dreamer. Yet she was in charge of like paying the bills and and making sure that things got done at home and raising the kids. And I did that too. But hers was a lot of the tenacity work. You have to finish it.

She has no tenacity. I have no tenacity, but I get to be an author and a speaker. And I would come home and say, why did we get a late bill or why did they shut our power off? And she goes, yeah, I forgot to follow through on that bill. I meant to do it. And we get frustrated at each other. And she go, why don't you do it for years? She go, why don't you take over the finances then? And I'm like, because I'm working and I'm traveling. And she's like, I. And when we figured out our working genius, I was like, I am so sorry. I should have had more grace. And she guys, I, she said,

I felt like I was supposed to be great at this. You know what we did a month ago, Brian? We hired an outside person to become her accountability coach. Oh. She would have never done it. When she saw her working genius and said, I don't have follow through, I don't have tenacity. Every day she talks to this woman and says,

here are the five things I need to get done today. I'll talk at the end of the day. And the woman will say to her, why didn't you do that one? She goes, well, this is what happened. And the woman will say, no, no, no. So tomorrow you have to get that done. And Laura said, it's changed her life.

Hmm. But before she knew what her geniuses were, you know what she thought she was, a failure. Yeah. Well, other women, I know, pay the bills on time and their house is always clean. And it's like, yeah, but they're not a creative dreamer. And they don't come up with these new ideas. And my wife has got these brilliant ideas and she's really deep and thoughtful.

And she's going to help us figure out how to apply all this to marriage. I think that part of it's so critical. I know we've talked about this and family offline too because that's the point of doing all this, right? We want to make sure that we're better understanding. I read a quote recently about that when it comes to your partner is like you almost have to fall in love with a person like six or seven times because you grow and you evolve and things happen. And if you're not kind of on that same path where you're willing to do assessments to learn about your working genius or to learn about what you're all about, that's when problems really arise and not having an open mind. And I think that's the realizing the strengths and realizing the gifts of your partner and not getting frustrated if, for example, like, well, I've said this before, Pat. And I'm definitely not proud of where I'm like, I would never do that when it comes to like maybe missing a bill or something.

I've said that. I'm like, what a horrible thing to say. Mortified. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But like saying a comment like that, like how is that helpful? How is it helpful to say like I would never do that?

And I've done it. And I'm just like, oh, man, it's because you're not, one, not being kind, but also not understanding where that person is coming from, what they have on their plate, what they're doing, what their gifts are. And I think that's where I've personally messed up and have worked really hard to try to get better at over the years. You know, there's a few things I want to say about this. I love, I don't know how long your podcast can go on, but a week should just do a marathon. But St. Francis of Assisi said, seek to understand more than to be understood.

And see, it's hard to love somebody if you don't understand them because you have to really know what's going on. And when we don't understand people, what we do is we judge them. Yep. And we, and so let me explain how we judge them. Like, and this could be at work or at home. Somebody doesn't do something well at work. And the judgment I might make, if I don't know they're working genius and who they are, it's like, oh, they're kind of lazy. Or they don't care as much as I do.

Or they're not very bright. Well, when you realize they're working genius, you go, oh, no, no, they care. They're not lazy. They don't have any tenacity. So they lose sight of it. Now, that's not an excuse, but it's an understanding of I'm not going to make a character judgment of them. I'm going to realize that's not how they're wired. When my wife, when things now happen in our home, because she's taking one for the team by doing things outside of her genius and something goes wrong, I can literally smile and love her.

and go, thank you for doing tenacity stuff because I'm not good at it. And I love you, my wondering, inventing wife. And it's totally, I can embrace her lack of tenacity because it makes her what she is. But if I'm judging her as being like, how could you let that happen? And it's like, well, I know how, because if I were in that, it'll probably, in my case, it would have happened to me. Now, it wouldn't have happened to you, but there's other things she does that you wouldn't be able to do. Oh, so way more.

Let me tell you a story. I love this story. A guy wrote to us right after the assessment came out and he said, he and his wife took this on their anniversary together. And he said, it changed their marriage. And I couldn't believe what he said. Remember this, Matt? And he said, I thought my wife hated me. And he laughed and he said, and I kind of joke about that, but no, I actually had this feeling

that she was against me. And you know what? He goes, and now I know why. He was an inventor. He would come up with the, he'd come home and go, I have this new idea, honey. It's this great thing. And she would always critique it, not criticize it, but critique it. And he thought she was like trying to pee on his parade, you know, like, and she, they did the assessment. She goes, Honey, I'm a discerner. My job, my genius is to look at an idea and evaluate it because I want it to work. So I'm just giving you the information that I think will allow your dream to become a reality. And he said, I thought she hated me.

It was how she was loving me. Now that I know that, I mean, I could get emotional just thinking about this. He goes, we now realize it was all based in love. That's a deal breaker. That's a game changer. And sometimes it's just understanding how people are wired. The same thing happens at work. I remember early on as a manager being frustrated if somebody didn't have the tenacity that I had.

But they probably had other gifts and other skills that I also didn't have, but I couldn't see that. You become, again, judgmental. I think the opposite of being judgmental is being curious. And when I was judging for not having the tenacity that I have, because I remember, I actually said this quote, Pat, I'm 26. I'm a new manager. I've obviously no idea what I'm doing. And I told, like a senior VP, I said, look, I just need 16 of me. This is hire 16 of me and we will crush it. It's super embarrassing to admit that. But again, we're being real here. And I did say that to a senior guy who probably looked at me and thought, we got to get rid of this guy. But that's how I legitimately thought. This is also why I love the phrase learning leader, because you got to learn as you. go and learn that sometimes you were stupid and you got to get better. But that's the,

that was the issue was like I literally thought that. And then I would get frustrated in the early days. That's why I wrote a book called Welcome to Management because of so many welcome to management moments that I had and messed up that I needed early when I met you. You were talking about this. That was great. And so I think that's the other part too at work is understanding their working genius and their gifts so that it leads to a whole lot less of frustration and more understanding as opposed to judgment, which is certainly what I did early in my career. And hope I'm not really doing it now, but I'm sure we were not perfect. So I think that's something to think about.

Well, a beautiful thing is you can tell somebody these are my working genius is when I get a little sideways, this is probably what you're going to see. Yeah. You know, I can say to people, I'm an ID, so I come up with new ideas. if I'm in a meeting and we're about to launch a program and I'm coming up with new ideas, tell me to be quiet. Say, we're not doing that right now. Every conversation requires certain letters and launching something does not require invention

and discernment. It requires enablement and tenacity. And this, by the way, for anybody listening to this, there's a really positive hard edge to this. What I mean by that is, so let's say you have somebody working for you and they're not finishing and you really need them to. And you do the working genius and you go, oh, crap. You know something, Bill?

I really need a finisher. I realize that's not you. I love you. I think you're a great guy. If I had another job for you in the organization that fit your genius, I would put you in it. In fact, when one comes up, I will. But I'm not rejecting you as a person. I'm telling you I need a galvanizer and a tenacity person.

And I know that's not you. And I don't want to make you be something you're not. And I don't want to frustrate you in your job. It turns that conversation. I had to let a guy go recently in a job and he did not have tenacity. And it was preventing him from hitting his numbers. And I loved the guy. And praise me to God, he's somebody else is interested in him at another organization now.

But I said to him, I need a tea. I know you don't have that. We didn't realize that when we hired you. We don't want to beat you up for this. And it allowed him to go, I'm not a bad person. it just my, the gifts God gave me don't align with what you need. So it lets you have more, let you have more dignity with people.

So it's not to say, well, you just have to accept everybody as they are and make them work. Some jobs require this. And it's a better way to explain it. The other thing is when you hire, we really believe that you should say, like we're hiring an assistant.

I'm literally going to go out and interview a person to be our office manager. Right after this is over. She's here. And we sat down and said, which letters are pretty important. And which letters, if they're her weaknesses, would probably be a non-starter. Now, people would say, are you going to give her the assessment?

No. You're not allowed to do that in some states, I don't know. But we're going to explain the model. You're not? You can't do that? You know, I think that it's illegal to give somebody a written assessment, which is stupid because in this case,

that assessment allows them not to take a job that's going to make them miserable. Well, I was going to say, it feels like a pretty good idea to me. I thought that was going to be a big part. part of this. Well, if we think that the legal community understands what's best for people, you know what I mean? There's so many laws that are like, but, but what we do is we just have the conversation about the working genius and we go, we're looking for somebody who loves this and

loves this and probably can do a little of this and a little of this. How do you feel about that? Because here's the thing. If you take the job and we're expecting that from you and you're looking at this list and you're like, oh, that sounds miserable to me, it'd be better to opt out because it should be a mutual fit that we're looking for. And having this description gives people the confidence to go, yeah, yeah, yeah, I probably shouldn't take this job because two weeks from now, I'll have to come to work and act that way, and that's just not why you. Can I ask you a question about reinvention?

And I'll explain what I mean by that. So, and this is a little bit different, but I think it probably applies to some of the working genius because of what you're about. it's rare really rare i think in this industry to be known for something like five dysfunctions and then all of a sudden we're known you're known for the ideal team player and then which is out there you know humble hungry smart and then all of a sudden you're known for the advantage right and there are plenty other ones that are out there and then before you know it now we have the working genius which might be the biggest thing that you'll ever do

That just doesn't happen, right? Normally you kind of get your thing and you might ride that for the rest of your career and live off of that. But it feels like you have regularly reinvented yourself, what you're about, what you provide to the world, your business. I mean, how? How are you able to kind of do this? Usually like, okay, this is a leadership guy, right? And I love John Maxwell, but he's kind of like the same thing for like four or five. decades, you know. So I'm curious how you've been able to reinvent yourself and create new,

different stuff as you've gone. And I think a lot of it is that I can't help doing it. Yeah. I can't help it. And just, just to make sure people understand this, my first job at a school, I didn't, I wasn't an abject failure, but I failed. Okay. In other words, I didn't get fired after three weeks or something like that. I lasted for two years of misery in a job that many people, people stayed for two years. It was at Bain and Company as a management consultant. And I was not at the top of my class. I didn't like it. I struggled in it. And I looked back and I realized what they wanted was the two things I hate the most in working genius. They wanted me to just do whatever they told me without questioning it. Like no discernment. Just do it because we told you and finish it perfectly, make sure there's no mistakes. Remember precision and doing things on somebody else's terms with that. They didn't want any of my eye and any of my D. Well, it wasn't until I put myself in a role where I got to do that every day. And you know what I did? I was very blessed in this. My dad, God rest his soul, said, Pat, when I started my own company, he said, don't hire anybody else because you might, you won't be able to pay them yet. Make sure you get revenue before you can.

I said, dad, I'll never get any revenue if I don't have people around me who do the stuff I suck at. So once I put myself in a position where I surrounded my people, myself with people who were good at things I wasn't, and I allowed myself to live in my geniuses, it started happening. And so I am blessed to be able to use the gifts God gave me in a way that I enjoy and good things are happening. I do not think for one second that it's because I am like, I powered through or the force of will. It is a gift and a blessing. And I mean that that's not false modesty. It's like I don't take any of this on like I am special. I was fortunate and blessed to do things I love to do. And it's helping other people and praise God for that. I don't think anything else other than that. And everybody's got gifts.

And it's like what you're doing, you know, you get to use your discernment, but then you're like getting things done. Yeah. And so we get gifts and I hope everybody gets to, that's why we're doing this. We want every single person in the world to know their gifts. Nobody should spend their life. I don't care if they're a senior in high school or if they're retiring or if they're in the middle of their career. Nobody should go through life doing things that make them miserable. God didn't intent for that. Man, the six types of working genius. Look at this thing.

It's pretty sweet. I highly recommend it. A better way to understand your gifts, your frustrations, and your team. And it's a fable. I think people who like your other stuff will love this and a fun, fast read. And then the cool thing is you could implement it immediately. Wherever you are at home, at work, I think it applies. It's good to have these conversations.

have these conversations with people you work with and people you live with because then they can better understand, okay, this is how you can approach people more with curiosity and less with judgment when you have an understanding of their working genius and what they're all about. It's beyond a personality test. It's more about like what we're actually doing each day. Yes. And I think that that's the most important thing. Do it and talk to somebody about it. Yeah. It's so liberating. And people are going to go, oh my gosh, now I understand you. No wonder you succeeded in that. No wonder you hated that. And it takes off any guilt and judgment. And it frees people up to say, oh, I'm just, I failed in my first job in those two two years. I carried that

around with me for years. You know what it's like to actually look at that and go, oh, now I know, I was destined to fail. I wasn't, I thought I was lazy and stupid. It's like, wait, I'd never been lazy and stupid until then. I just took a job doing something I was bad at. So, hey, I love talking to about this stuff. I love it, man. I love all of our conversations. I'm super grateful for you as a friend and certainly a mentor. Thanks again, man. I'm going to publicly say that. And I'm just, I'm happy the fact that we'll obviously be continuing our dialogue as we both progress, man. All righty. Well, the best to you and your family, and I appreciate being on here. God bless you, buddy. I'm extremely grateful for Pat's kindness, his love and care, his willingness to be a mentor and a

friend and we fortunately have built a relationship over the past six plus years to the point where anytime I have a question about growing a business, writing a book, speaking on stage, he's there to take my call. And I wanted to acknowledge that. I think it's important to acknowledge that, as I said, when we were recording, because when he does that for me, It inspires me to want to do that for many others. And I hope that story inspires you to do that for other people. A few takeaways from my notes, the six types of working genius, wonder, invention, discernment, galvanizing, enablement, tenacity. It's worth it to understand what yours are as well as the people close to you.

Then the opposite of judgment is curiosity. We should seek first to understand rather than trying to be. understood, then humility is a virtue. We can practice it. We can get better at. It can be a learned skill, but we first have to acknowledge it, understand it, and care enough to get better at it. Again, I hope you enjoyed this one as much as I did. These conversations with Pat are so helpful for me, and I'm glad we're getting them on tape for others to hear as well, because you can tell how genuine and humble and real he is. When we have conversations that aren't recorded, they are exactly the same as the ones

that are. And that shows me the type of guy that he is. But I hope you enjoyed it. And if so, I'd love it if you'd tell a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Pat Lensioni. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader. And because you continue to do that and you continue to write reviews and rate the show, hopefully five stars on Apple Podcasts, you are giving me the opportunity.

to do what I love. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.