The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 515: Kim "KC" Campbell - How To Respond To Rejection, Earn a Promotion, Find Your Purpose, & Lead With Courage

Episode Date: March 6, 2023

Text Hawk to 66866 to become part of "Mindful Monday." Join 10's of thousands of your fellow learning leaders and receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right... Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12   https://twitter.com/RyanHawk12 Kim "KC" Campbell (KC = "Killer Chick") is a retired Air Force Colonel who served in the Air Force for over 24 years. She has flown 1,800 hours in the A-10 Warthog, including more than 100 combat missions protecting troops on the ground in both Iraq and Afghanistan. In 2003, Kim was even awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for Heroism after successfully recovering her battle-damaged airplane after an intense close air support mission in Baghdad. Kim is the author of Flying in the Face of Fear: A Fighter Pilot's Lessons on Leading with Courage. Notes: On January 28, 1986,  the challenger rocket exploded (killing all astronauts on board). On that day, Kim learned what it meant to serve something bigger than yourself. She decided she wanted to be an astronaut and serve something bigger than herself. A big influence in Kim's life was a high school teacher named Mrs. Kennett. She helped Kim on the speech and debate team. One of her arguments was about women being allowed to be combat pilots. Mrs. Kennett worked to create "power women." Response to Rejection: Initially Kim got rejected by the Air Force Academy because of a low SAT score. In response, instead of quitting and moving on, she wrote a letter to them every week stating why they should accept her... Which they eventually did. "The tough moments make you better." The initial rejection was a blessing in disguise. How to crush the interview process? Prepare... Walk through potential questions and rehearse your stories. Role play with a mentor. Be you. Be real. Be authentic Create a connection with all in the room. Look them in the eye. Be genuine. Like father, Like daughter — just before Kim's final year at the academy, she earned the position of Cadet Wing Commander. This is a position her dad held 25 years earlier. They were the first father-daughter wing commander duo in academy history. A woman in a man's world: When Kim started pilot training in 1999, there were 33 female fighter pilots in the Air Force. About 1% of fighter pilots. Kim's choice of airplane was the A10 WartHog. The airplane was designed first with the 30 mm Gatling gun on it in mind: capable of shooting 3,900 rounds per minute. The leader sets the culture. They decide what to create and what to allow. Kim was on a combat support mission in Baghdad when her airplane was hit. She had to make a split-second decision about whether to exit the aircraft behind enemy lines or try to fly it back to a safer area... Commanders intent - Your why is the way forward. You allow your team to take action and make decisions. "Explain the why. Explain the context. Let the lower level leaders make decisions and run with it." Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" speech resonates with Kim. "We feel fear and freeze. We can't let fear paralyze us. We need to take action in the face of fear. Remain calm. Acknowledge the fear and move forward."

For a leader to set the culture, to me that's what's important. To have that understanding of what people are thinking, how people are feeling. It is 100% on the leader to set the culture, to set the climate, to create this environment where people feel safe, where people feel comfortable. No matter who you are, what your background is, creating that environment of trust where people feel safe is important for any organization. Welcome to The Learning Leaders Show, presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text, Hawk to 666866 to become part of Mindful Monday.

You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email for me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right. You'll also receive details about how my book, The Pursuit of Excellence, will help you become a more effective leader. text, Hawk to 66866. Now on tonight's feature leader, so good. Kim Campbell is a retired Air Force Colonel who served for over 24 years. She has flown more than 100 combat missions protecting troops on the ground in both Iraq and Afghanistan. In 2003, Kim was awarded the Distinguished Flying

Cross for heroism after successfully recovering her battle damaged and, you know, her battle damaged airplane after an intense close air support mission in Baghdad. During this conversation, we discuss how Kim responded when she was initially rejected by the Air Force Academy and what we can learn from her rejection and how she responded. And then how she approached being a woman in a man's world. When she started training as a pilot, only 1% of Air Force pilots were women. And I think this is helpful for both men and women to hear it from her perspective. And then at the end, Kim shares the harrowing story of when her plane was hit in Baghdad. And she faced the life-altering decision of whether to eject behind enemy lines or try to fly a damaged airplane back to her base.

Wow, what a story. Ladies and gentlemen, you're in for a treat. This one's so good. It's Kim Campbell. All right, Kim. Kim, it's great to have you here on The Learning Leaders Show. Welcome. Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it, Ryan. To start, I want to go back in time to January 28, 1986.

This was a pivotal day for you from what I read in your book. What happened on that day and how did it change your life? I think a lot of us probably remember exactly where we were that day. I was at home with my mom when I watched the space shuttle Challenger launch. And there was something, you know, watching the launch, you know, initially it was fantastic and amazing. And then shortly thereafter, it was a terrible tragedy. There was something about that moment that stuck with me in terms of watching this tragedy unfold, that these astronauts died doing something that they believed in, something that was bigger,

and more important than themselves. And I really connected with it in some way. I didn't really understand it. I mean, I was only in fifth grade. And so I asked my mom a lot of questions and, you know, why would people be willing to risk their lives like that? And, you know, my mom talked me through a lot of it, just that sometimes there's things that you are willing to risk your life for,

that there are things that are bigger than yourself. And I decided on that day that I wanted to be an astronaut. After talking to my parents, my dad reinforces this idea that a lot of those astronauts were pilots and many had gone to the Air Force Academy. So within, I don't know, days, maybe weeks, I set this goal of becoming an astronaut, going to the Air Force Academy, becoming a fighter pilot. So that day changed my life completely. I mean, you'd think it might have the opposite effect.

Like people died. It was a tragedy. It was awful. I mean, like live, it's just, oh. But for you, it inspired you in a way, it sounds. Yeah, it did. Sometimes I still struggle to make sense of it today. But it's really interesting.

As I share the story, so many people have reached out to me and said that that moment, that tragedy, had a positive impact, had an inspiring impact on them. I mean, there was certainly this, the freedom of flight, the fearlessness, everything that goes with it, I think was exciting to me. but this idea of doing something that was more important than me that was bigger than me that I would be willing to give my life for. There's something for me that connected with that. And hard to know why in fifth grade that that was something that resonated with me. Thankfully, I had some parents to chat with about it.

When you travel around, do you still feel that sense of people wanting to be a part of something that's bigger than them? I wonder, has this changed? Has it evolved since you are in fifth grade and you see this tragedy? And it said, I actually want to do the very thing that those people just lost their lives doing. Do you sense it's changed or what do you think? It's interesting because I think we see moments where people have stepped up and decided that they wanted to do something important, whether it's serving in a time of war. I mean, after 9-11, we certainly saw a drastic increase in the number of people.

joining the military or joining the medical field. I think there's just people are interested to do something that they feel like is important where they can make it a difference and an impact. And I think that's for me what I realized over time. There is the excitement of flying, but what I really loved about the mission, what I've loved about my career flying a mission that is solely focused on supporting our troops on the ground was that I could make a difference. I could make an impact and know that what I did mattered. I don't. think that's exclusive to the military. I think that we can find that in a lot of different careers. When you find your passion and your purpose, I think that's what's most important. I love it when

I see an influential teacher. And I may pronounce her name wrong, Mrs. Kennett or Mrs. Connett. Can you share more about her and the impact she had on your life? Yeah. I'm smiling, thinking about it because she was such an influential person in my high school time. When I decided that I wanted to be this fighter pilot in 1986. I had no idea that women weren't allowed to be fighter pilots. Like, I just, I didn't know that. My parents didn't tell me. And as I got through high school and started really pursuing this in more, I guess with more rigor and more research, I actually joined the speech and debate team. And one of our topics was women in combat. And Mrs. Kennett was my speech and debate coach. That was the first time I realized that this

career, this passion, this goal that I had set, was not actually open to women. She was like, it doesn't matter. Go after what you want, work hard at it. And it didn't matter what policy, what procedure might stand in the way. She was all about creating power women, as she called us, that would go out and change the world. And those were her words. But it's how she signed my yearbook. And I look back on it to this day. We still are in contact today. I think when you have those positive role models, those mentors that encourage you when you face a little bit of a roadblock, it can make such a difference. And she definitely had that positive impact on me. Isn't it cool? You realize that now, like looking back after you can reflect,

but doesn't that inspire you to try to be that for others? Oh, absolutely. I think I realize that this journey of mine, there have been so many people who have supported me, who have helped me, who have pushed me when times were hard, including my parents, right? I think there is a support role when we mentor others, but there's also a role to challenge and encourage and push a little bit because those dreams, those goals don't happen easy. They are hard. And there have been mistakes and failures and rejection along the way,

which can feel devastating at the time, but to have someone there to support you. So I recognize completely that those people help me get to where I am and I want to do the same for other people. That's much of the reason I decided to write the book. Speaking of rejection, you wanted to go to the Air Force Academy, the same place where your dad went. And it sounds like you did everything within your power except get a great SAT score, which you still tried.

It sounds like what five, six times took the pre-test, good tutor everything. Five times. Yeah, same score. But you didn't initially get in, right? They rejected you. How did you respond to that rejection? Well, when I opened the letter, I will tell you, it was, I mean, when I was shocked because I felt like I had done everything that I could, even knowing that my SAT

scores weren't spectacular. And then there was just this crushing, I don't know, a crushing blow, right? Like, it had worked so hard. I had put everything into it. And it was the letter essentially said it's a very competitive process. Please try again next year. I read it as you're not good enough. I mean, that's the way I read it.

Again, I had people around me that were like, Kim, if this is your goal, this is your dream, then don't quit. Stay after it. My liaison officer, who is my connection to the Air Force Academy, he told me, he said, you know, there are a lot of people who decide not to go to the academy. Perhaps you can take one of their spots. So he encouraged me to write a letter to the academy every week to tell them that I was still interested, still motivated, and that's what I did. I started this letter writing campaign

just to let them know that if someone decided they weren't going to go, that I would take their spot. And I was so committed, this went on for months. I decided that I would show up on our initiation day, kind of the start of basic training. And if somebody was too scared to get off the bus, that maybe I would just, I would be off in the side saying, okay, I'll take your spot. But that didn't come without encouragement from others. That idea to keep going, to keep working hard, you know, I just, I'm thankful that people push me to keep after what I wanted. The story is inspiring. Like, it's emotional in a way because it's so much easier to kind of throw your arms up and say, well, screw them. I'll just go somewhere else. I know you looked at

an ROTC program like in San Diego or like I'm just going to do that. And I feel like, I feel like And I hope this isn't becoming the norm in our culture today. But I think the Kims of the world and how you responded to that rejection is not common. I'm not going to say screw them. In fact, I'm going to try harder. I'm going to put myself out there to be embarrassed even more by writing a letter a week. I just, I want, I so want that message delivered like in every high school to every kid, to even adults, too, I think the same way. That's the part that it's not, it just, it sounds cliche, but like the never give up.

And in fact, I'm going to go even harder after they said, no, you're not good enough, at least that's how you took it. That's the part of things so cool about the story. Yeah, those are things that I share with my kids today that doesn't always come easy. And you are going to face likely going to face some rejection along the way. I look back and I think about like, what if I had quit? What if I had just kind of thrown it in? And believe me, I had like those feelings were there.

You know, you have that moment where you're devastated. But you've got to get out of that. And for me, thinking about all the things that I would have missed out in my life if I hadn't pursued that path and gone after what I wanted. So, you know, I see it. I see it in my kids. I see that when it's hard. They're just like, ah, I don't need to do that.

Or I'll do something else. I'm like, no, if this is what you want, you got to keep going for it. I think of any of the greatest accomplishments of your life, Think of like the greatest things that have happened to you. Usually they're preceded by stuff that's really hard, whether that's rejection or in your case, like going through all of the military boot camp type stuff or learning how to fly an airplane. I mean, all of that stuff that has led to the greatness of you and the achievements was preceded by something really hard. And that is a, it's like a signal on life, isn't it, Kim?

when you see, look around, oh, I'm coming across something really hard. Well, that's usually how this works, right? That's usually how it works before something big happens. I agree. I mean, I think I look back on the many difficult moments of my life and the many hard times. And those are those moments that made me a better person, a better leader, a better mom, a better wife, you know, all of those things, those hard things help me and continue to help me in difficult moments.

I kind of feel like when you do hard things, it makes you better at doing those hard things. And I look back and those are the moments where I am most proud, right, that I got through that hard thing and I feel stronger because of it. And in the moment, it feels sometimes like the end of the world or like, this sucks. I'm not doing this. But that's why you have to draw from those other experiences or read stories like yours and say, actually, I'm in the middle of that thing right now. Let's say you have a horrible boss. I'm in the middle of it right now. What can I learn from this?

How can I get better? How do I not be the person who complains or quits? I think those are the things it's to take from stories like yours, but implement it when you're in the thick of it, like right in the middle of it. That's the crucial learning, I think, in the takeaway from this. It is, but it's hard, right? Because in the moment it sucks and you're frustrated with your boss. You're frustrated with a situation.

You kind of just want to quit. And if you can think about, like, I, well, first off, I believe you can learn just as much from bad bosses, right? And how you don't ever want to do it. But you learn how to get through it. I think there's so much that we can learn from those struggles. It's just how do you flip the switch, right? How do you change your mindset so that in that moment you're not wallowing in the frustration

you can actually learn from it? It's just, it's hard to do. And sometimes that's where that mentor or coach or somebody could come in and kind of walk through it with you, which is what I'm thankful I had. Whenever somebody's written as like a self-made billionaire, nobody, nobody, not a single person in the world is a self-made billionaire. We're all community-made. We're built through the people around us. Yes, they may have not inherited it, but that didn't mean that they're self-made. I just have yet to meet an excellent leader who's self-made. They're made certainly by their choices and their work ethic and resilience, but also they're made by the people they surround themselves with. Yes, and I appreciate that more and knowing that they had people around them, that we're potentially going to challenge them and challenge those ideas

and help them kind of make best possible decisions. So I think having a team, in my case, we call it having a wingman, I think it's critical. You eventually get in. And at one point, I remember which year this was in your story, but they actually called you to the office because they're like, we need to meet this person who was just crazily writing us letters all the time. Like, what was that like? Well, when I was scared because I was getting called to this admissions office that, you know,

was in this big building that was the headquarters building. And I didn't want anything to do with that. I was a freshman. We're just trying to blend in and not make any waves. And going to the headquarters building was a little bit frightening. But once I got up there, they were like, hey, we just had to meet you because every week we got your letter. put a little smiley face on it and put it on the admission officer's desk. And we just wanted to know who you were. And we wanted to say congratulations for making it through basic training.

It was kind of nice to know that they actually read the letters and it made a difference. It's cool to see how you can leave your mark. But let's fast forward a few years. And just before your final year at the academy, you earn the position of cadet wing commander. And this is such a cool part of the story. This is the same position that your dad held 25 years earlier. And I read that you were the first father-daughter wing commander duo in Academy history. What all does it consist of to be a cadet wing commander? What are you responsible for? And tell me about what that meant to you doing it 25 years after your dad did. After I got that rejection, I also used as a bit of motivation because I wanted to prove to everybody that I belong.

I wasn't going to just ride by. I wanted to do well and I wanted to excel. And so I applied for this position. It's the highest ranking cadet of all the cadets at the Air Force Academy. So my role was that I was in charge of all 4,000 cadets who were, you know, also my peers, which was really tough. But to know that my dad had done it, there's a wall with all the pictures of the cadet wing commanders at the Air Force Academy.

and to see my dad's picture up there, not quite next to mine, but close to mine on the same wall was just, it was really cool because my dad worked so hard to help me when he was there, there weren't any women. So for him,

his little girl going to the Air Force Academy, I certainly wanted to make him proud. And it was just really, I don't know, it's just heartwarming, I guess, in terms of like, it was almost like to show my dad

that all that he had done for me, like I had taken it, I had listened. You know, he's always been, such a role model and a mentor. And it's nice to be able to kind of give back and show them that, you know, I did listen along the way. Even as a tough teenager, I listened. And the effort that he put in to help me, I think, paid off. The leader of 4,000 others is a massive responsibility.

And they don't just hand that thing out to anyone. How did you earn that? It's an interview process. But part of it is you got to perform all the previous three years, you know, so they're watching you all along to see how you perform, to see the leadership roles leading up to that, how you do. And then you do an interview that is cadets, so peers, and then also the more experienced officers and enlisted personnel who help train us and teach us, who have had those leadership roles. It's a really tough interview. It's like the big board room and you're at the end of the table and people are kind of staring at you and asking you tough questions, which was an experience.

itself to go through. But to be able to lead 4,000 cadets at the Air Force Academy was an incredible experience because this was my first opportunity to really lead and command a large organization, but also in a training environment where they encourage us and you're going to make mistakes. You're going to do things that maybe aren't the best way to do things. But you get the feedback, you learn from it. And honestly, that experience there at the Air Force Academy set the stage for the rest of my career and leading large teams. I got to try things. I got to fail at things. I got to be critiqued at things. And it all is a little rough at the time. But again, those hard things made me better in the long run. So part of the interview process is what you've actually done leading up to that

moment. I had a great mentor and boss named Rex Caswell who told me you're interviewing for your next job every day. I love that. I think you take that approach. That's going to help when you actually get in the interview room. So we know that you did all of all of the necessary things leading up to the moment. But let's let's go inside that room, whether it's you can draw from that specific one or other ones you've been in because I think this is something practical for all of us to think about, which is when you're going for the big promotion or the big job, which people do all the time now, what is it that sets you apart from the other candidates? What is it to say, you know, you know what? Kim is the one. She's,

the one. How do people prepare and then execute their plan when they're in the room, in the scary room, whether there's a full set of people or it's one-on-one, whatever may be? What's some advice, some ideas you have when you're in that interview room to nail it in order to achieve the position that you want? That's a great question, and I'll look at it from a couple different angles. Preparation for me is so key. It's been a part of my career that has helped me because those times when you're going through those interviews are you're nervous, you're anxious, you're worried about what people are thinking that you're not going to meet expectations, all of those things are there. So preparing for those things has been a big part of my career

and actually walking through an interview before it actually happens. Taking the time to have somebody ask you the tough questions to yourself, if you don't have somebody there to actually sit down and visualize and think through the tough questions and how you might respond. For me, that helped instill confidence. So that's part of it, is that preparation that goes in. But I think in terms of, I look at when I've been on the other side and doing those interviews, what resonated with me was when somebody was true to who they are, like to let that human side come through, to create a connection.

And I think when you are authentic to who you. you are and can show that and how you will act as a leader, I think that really comes through. I find a lot of times in those big interviews, and I've been there, right? It's stressful. So you're rigid, you're not really letting your personality come through. And if you're going to be on somebody's team, right, they kind of want to know who you are. How are you going to act around them? How are you going to react to tough situations? How are you going to be in moments of stress? From my perspective, those are the things that really resonated with me from that end. You were and are in a way a woman and a man's world.

When you started pilot training in 1999, there were 33 female fighter pilots in the Air Force, which was about 1% of fighter pilots. It feels like you thought of yourself as a fighter pilot, not as a female fighter pilot. But I would imagine one of the biggest questions you get today is how to help with women who feel like they're in a man's world in some places. It's obviously getting much better in corporate America, but we still have, we still have ways to go, especially at the C-suite. What do you draw from as you're sharing advice and trying to help other people that you learned from being just 1% when it comes to the fighter pilots in the Air Force Academy? I really spent my entire career there because despite the fact that we had 33 back in 1999, our numbers are quite honestly

not that much better today, especially at the senior leader level. Yeah, we've we've doubled the numbers, which sounds great, but it's been, you know, 20 plus years. And so we have more work to do. For me, what I took walking into my fighter squadron on day one, as nervous as I was, was this idea of just go in and be credible. Work hard, have a good attitude, maintain a good attitude through it all, but really work hard to prove myself in the airplane. And then I felt like the rest would take care of itself. I think initially the guys in my squadron didn't, they just didn't know how to respond or what it was going to be like. And I think to be able to prove to them that I might look a little bit differently. I might sound a little bit differently, but I can still fly the

airplane. It can be credible and capable in the airplane. I guess in some ways a benefit is that we went to combat very early in my career and to be able to prove yourself in combat. There's to be able to prove yourself when that moment matters, whether it's a presentation or a negotiation or whatever, those things build credibility. So I think for me, that was the biggest thing, is just go and be credible, work hard, maintain that good attitude. And I just learned that the rest really took care of itself. And for me, I mean, the jet doesn't matter. So the jet doesn't care which pilot is in there. So my team really didn't care either. That advice, I feel like, plays to every person. Yeah. So I feel like I get this question too, even as a male. Like,

what can I do as a female who's trying to rise up? And it feels like that's the same thing I would say regardless of you're a guy or girl. Yes, that is the same advice I would give anybody going into any organization when you're new, right? No matter what you're walking into a new job, well, guess what? You kind of have to prove yourself and people are watching to see what you do. They're watching. Whether you're male or female, it doesn't matter. It's all about go and be credible, work hard, maintain that good attitude through the tough times, through the hard times, show that you're willing to put in the work and be a team player. The advice doesn't matter based on gender. Do you think a woman has to be even better, though?

I will answer this from my perspective of, you know, I put that pressure on myself. Yes. I was worried that if I did something wrong, if I made a mistake, that I would ruin it for all the women that followed me. And that's, I mean, that's, that's a lot of pressure. But that's the pressure I put on myself. That's not what anybody else thought. That's the pressure that I put on myself. So when you're one of, when you're few, I think, you're more under the microscope. Those little mistakes sometimes tend to be, I don't want to say blown out of proportion, but sometimes they become bigger mistakes. And that's hard. But I think that's any one of. As there are more women,

as there are more minorities, things don't matter as much. I mean, we all make mistakes, right? We all fail at some point. So again, I really tried in those moments. Believe me,

I proved that I was credible, but I had my mistakes and failures along the way. a lot of that was how I responded in that moment. Like what did I do with that mistake? How did I learn from it and move on? So Kim, when I first learned about you and saw your name is Kim Campbell, and then in parentheses,

it's Kim KC Campbell. I just assumed the KC stands for Kim Campbell. Yep, that I also read somewhere else that KC actually stands for Killer Chick. Is that right? It is true. Yes, that is my call sign. Tell you about the origin of killer chick.

Well, so every fighter pilot gets a call sign. It happens very early in our career after we go through our combat mission ready upgrade. So you show up to your fighter squadron. You're not combat mission ready, meaning you can't deploy. But once you go through and get your upgrade and are complete and are considered combat mission ready, then you get a call sign. It's kind of a, it's a big ceremony, really. It's a big moment.

It is a big moment. you kind of proved yourself and you're not actually in the room when they come up with names for you. They tell stories. It happens in the bar on a Friday night. So you can imagine it's a big, it's a big night. And I walked, I was outside the room that walked back into the room. The bar is going crazy. Like it's a big deal. So they're yelling and cheering and they tell me my call sign is killer chick, which for me was, there's not a whole lot of a story, but it's just the fact that here I was a woman in a fighter squadron. flying an airplane, an A-10 whart hog, an attack airplane. So killer chicks seem pretty fitting. But it's very long and it doesn't fit on my name tag very well. So we just shortened it to Casey.

I also read about a story. I think it was earlier in your time when you had to give a $1 bill. And back in those days, I think they changed this you wrote. But back in those days, there's pornography on the $1 bill. What's this story all about? Who do you give it to? And what's that all about? So the first time that you fly in the airplane, it's considered a dollar ride. Apparently the story is that nothing in life is free, so you're paying a dollar for that first ride. It's a tradition. It still happens that we still give dollars to our instructors on that very first ride in the airplane. It's a fun ride.

I mean, you're being introduced to the airplane. There's not much evaluation going on. It's really exciting. But I realize that those dollar bills, you would see them on the table. in the squadron under the glass, and you'd only see the front side, usually with the instructor's name and the student's name and a date. And then I realized after a little bit of time there,

that the backside of the dollar bills actually had a pornography on it. And, you know, I'm like, well, you're trying to figure out, how do you fit in while still maintaining your own values and beliefs and staying true to who you are? So I realized that putting the pornography on the back of the dollar wasn't really going to be my thing, right? These were pictures of women on the backside of the dollar bill. And so I decided, well, how can I do this, but do it in a way that kind of pushes back a little bit. So I decided that instead of women on the back of the dollar bill that I would put pictures of men on the back of the dollar bill for my instructor.

So I think everybody was kind of wondering, like, what is she going to do? Is she going to handle this? And I just decided to do it in that way. So when I gave him the dollar bill and he flipped it over, it was a good laugh. Let's put it that way. It was a way for me to fight the system a little bit. I often look back to that situation.

And I think should I have done something differently, right? Like could I have stopped a process that really wasn't appropriate at the time? But I think when you're one of and you're the minority, you're just, you're trying to survive. I mean, that's what it was for me. And do I wish I had more courage back then to put a stop to something that over time has now, it is no longer in practice? Maybe, I don't know. It's hard to say. I mean, in the moment, I'm just trying to survive. I'm trying to get through. Yeah. And I'm doing it in the best way that I can. Yeah, I just think some of these stories are, you've used the phrase one of a lot. And that's not really a position I've ever been in. And so

But this is also why I wanted to have this conversation with you because I think it's good for us, those of us who haven't really ever been a one of, to put ourselves in people's positions who are or have been a one of to help us with perspective. Because it's easy for us to just go through life, assuming that we all view the world the same way and the experiences are the same. That's just not the case. That is not the case for those who feel and are one of's. And I think excellent leaders, especially if it's someone like in my position who hasn't felt that, we're going to be better by hearing the stories and understanding what it's like for someone who is a one of. Yeah.

And I think, you know, even small minority groups, right, it's just hard. And so understanding a little bit of that perspective, I mean, I will tell you now, 20 years later in a fighter squadron, in a one, I've had a fairly successful career. in a flying career. And so I'm well respected. And I don't have to say anything. When those maybe awkward or inappropriate moments come up, the guys in my squad are more than willing to step up and say, hey, knock it off. That just doesn't happen as much anymore in terms of those negative comments because we've evolved. We've come a long way in 20 years. But I think that's with anything, right? Can you stick up for the person? Can you step up and say, hey, that's really not appropriate or that's not okay

for a leader to set the culture, to me, that's what's important. Like, what does a leader accept in a culture, in an organization, to have that understanding of what people are thinking, how people are feeling? But it is 100% in my view on the leader to set the culture, to set the climate, to create this environment where people feel safe, where people feel comfortable. I mean, across the board, no matter who you are,

what your background is, creating that environment of trust where people feel safe is important for any organization. When looking at the airplane you decided to focus on, I did some research. I did not know a lot about the A10 Wartthog, but apparently when the construction of this plane was it's going to focus on the Gatling gun, right, this 30-millimeter Gatling gun, and we're going to build a plane around it. And this is something that's capable of shooting 39. 900 rounds per minute. To me, it was fascinating actually just to do a deep dive on this airplane that then you decided to fly.

Can you tell me more about why you decided to choose that one and also a little bit more of like what it was like to fly one of those? I knew I wanted to be a fighter pilot, right? That didn't change. That goal from 1986 didn't change. But I didn't know what airplane I wanted to fly. Over time, I started asking questions about different missions, and it really came down to this idea of flying an airplane that I know would make a difference for our troops on the ground.

So the A-10 primary mission is close air support, supporting our troops on the ground. And I just connected with that mission. To me, what a difference that I could make, that I could help people get home safely to their families. So for me, it just was the mission, why I picked the airplane. It certainly is not the sleekest or sexiest airplane out there, but it does a job and it does it really well. But actually flying the airplane for the first time is pretty impressive. It's actually a pretty easy airplane to fly. It's all the tactics and techniques and everything that goes with it when you're trying to make

real time, very fast decisions in a very high stress environment. You get about eight rides in the airplane before you actually go shoot the gun. We actually don't consider ourselves 8-10 pilots until you shoot the gun. So that ride is really the one that sticks out more than my first ride in the airplane. because when you shoot the gun that you just talked about, you can feel it, you can see it, you can smell it, it's a full experience. Well, this one's different because the gun is actually like right in the middle

and it has the, do all them have the paintings on it? Is that like part of, okay, no. So they each unit has different designations. So my very first unit was the unit, the 75th Fighter Squadron had the shark teeth on it. Yeah. Which is kind of the iconic image of the A10 Wartog. Yeah, so it's just different because it's built around this central huge gun that's meant, I assume, to then provide air support to troops in the ground so you can shoot at whatever is coming after us, correct?

Yeah. Like, that's a wild job. It's very, the gun is very precise, which means we can shoot very close to the friendly location. So when we get a call for troops in contact, meaning our troops on the ground are taking fire, they need to need. immediate assistance, we couldn't get in there very quickly and shoot very close to the friendlies, which is what I think makes a difference in terms of making us really good at what we do. We prepare for it, we practice for it, we put in all the work. That is our primary mission.

And you flew in more than 100 combat missions. And I would love, Kim, for you to take me inside, like as you're taking off and as you're getting close to the target or the area where you're, supporting our troops. What's going through your mind? What are you thinking? Because it obviously, as we'll get to in a second, like they also shoot back. It's not like you just go and shoot at them and nobody's firing back. What's your mindset saying, oh, I'm going here to support our troops, but knowing like they're going to be firing back at me too. The mindset when you get that troops in contact call, when you hear your troops on the ground are

taking fire is just that you're going to do everything you can to help them out and accept some risk because of the risk to our troops on the ground. You know, all the training, all the preparation, everything that has led up to this moment, right? You're, well, honestly, you're hoping that you don't make a mistake, you know, that you don't let the friendly troops down. So there is that little bit of pressure, but it's more focus on the mission, focus on all the things that you know that you have to do to be effective in that moment. And then when you do come across the enemy, is it just like, well, you don't really think of them as people?

I don't know. I've never done this. What's it like to say, like, no, I have to protect my guy. I've got to protect my team. So this is just part of the job or like, what's that like when you pull the trigger? I think you always know what happens when you pull the trigger. But I guess I look at more of I am supporting our troops. I am helping our troops get home safely, and that does mean that you have to take out the enemy to do that.

I think that's the way that I've looked at it is just I'm trying to protect our troops. I'm trying to defend them and help them. It's very different, though, from being on the ground. I mean, I have not been on the ground in a firefight, but I can only imagine that that situation, I think you might get a different response from some ground troops compared to our mission overhead. Well, one of those missions, you're supporting our troops, and you get hit. an amazingly, beautifully well-written story in your book. I just was captivated by this.

So I love for you to, you know, have to go word by word, but in whatever way you'd want to tell it, what happened on that day? What were some of the choices that you had to make that were life and death choices? Yeah, it's interesting because the day started just like every other day, right? Our mission is to support the troops on the ground.

We don't always know what we're going to be doing. We just know that we have to be prepared for just about anything. So we were our task to be up at over Baghdad providing close air support, just waiting for a call. The situation at that point had become pretty intense. Our ground troops had surrounded Baghdad and been in Baghdad for a few days. A lot of calls for close air support. And unfortunately, this day, the weather was pretty terrible. I mean, we couldn't see the ground below.

We were worried that we wouldn't be able to make a difference. And then we got a call that our troops were taking fire. They needed us as quickly as possible. So everything that we were worried about really didn't matter at that point because we were going to do everything that we could. So we proceeded quickly to the target area. And then my flight lead just said, hey, I'm going to find a hole in the clouds and we'll go through. And I remember watching him. He just kind of rolled inverted and then dove through.

And then, you know, I'm up above the clouds by myself now, kind of wondering what's going on. And very quickly after he said, all right, Casey, it's your turn. And I remember just looking down, finding that hole in the clouds and then diving through. I think what was most surreal is kind of what happened when we came out below the weather. It was just, it was very surreal. It was just everything that we trained for, everything that we planned for. You could see this firefight happening across the river. Our target area was over the Tigris River.

We had our friendly troops on the west side of the river, enemies over on the east side, firing rocket-propelled grenades into our troops. and you can see it, right? You can see the smoke, you can see the tracers, really eye-opening. But you don't have a lot of time to think about it, right? That's kind of that half second of thinking, although, you know, time feels a bit like it slows down. And then it's right into our mission of supporting our ground troops.

We decide we're going to do a couple passes. Our target was actually underneath the bridge, trying to get the enemy that was underneath the bridge shooting into our troops. We know, though, it's a high threat situation. So we're talking about what we're going to do. About this time, I start to see like puffs of gray and white smoke in the air now right next to my cockpit. This is what I realized, right, there's not only this firefight on the ground, but now they see us too. They're shooting up at us too.

But we still have this mission to do. So we focus on that, how to be very effective and efficient to get in there quickly and then climb up to get our energy back. So we decided to do two passes each. And on my last rocket pass, coming off target, just trying to get a, away from the ground, away from the that, and I feel a huge explosion at the back of the airplane. I immediately know I'm hit. The jet dumps over, points down at Baghdad below. I pull back on the control stick kind of instinctively and absolutely nothing happens. And I can see the ground getting

closer. I know I might have to eject. And so now I just quickly fall back into my training of try to analyze the situation, figure out what's going on. I've got master caution lights flashing. I've got a control panel that's lit up. And I realize that the hydraulics, which is what helps us fly the airplane, are completely depleted. They're empty. So I know at this point I have a choice of either ejecting, which does not sound good at all. And the other choice is trying to get the airplane into our emergency backup system, which thankfully is just a switch, to me, the thought of ejecting over Baghdad, just there was not much good that was going to come out of that. So flipping that switch and the airplane slowly starting to climb away

from Baghdad was a relief. Seems like an understatement because it was one of those moments where I finally, once that airplane started climbing, was like the first moment I thought I would actually survive the situation. You flip the switch. Does that mean you had to manually take over? What does that, what did that switch mean? Yeah. So you flip the switch and now the airplane, instead of flying on hydraulics, which is what helps the aircraft fly. It's a 47,000 pound airplane. So now I'm flying this 47,000 pound airplane with cranks and cables and pulleys. It's kind of like old school flying. To describe it, it's just heavy. It's not flying very well. It's heavy. Other pilots describe it like flying a dump truck or a semi truck without power steering. I don't know that many

of us have done that. I have not. But you can kind of get the idea that's just a heavy. stick. It's not maneuverable. It's very susceptible to kind of small changes. You're either diving or climbing or turning, and it's just, it's a difficult airplane to fly. But that's what you had to do. And I, did I read right that nobody had ever landed the plane that way? One pilot had landed the plane successfully before me. There were three attempts during Operation Desert Storm. And sadly, we lost a pilot. We lost an aircraft in these attempts. Wow. The good thing out of this is that I knew about the stories, right? I knew about their experiences.

I had read about them in a book. I had heard other pilots talk about them. And so that helped me on the way back, right? They shared their stories and I knew about their lessons learned and how they did it and what went right, but also what went wrong. So that really helped me on the way home. I had to fly 300 miles is about an hour of flight time to decide what I want. wanted to do because, you know, I had survived this initial moment.

Right. Even when you're on your way back, did you still think like, I'm just going to, I got to eject? I knew that was a real possibility. Wow. I knew that could get the airplane back to friendly territory and just eject or I could fly it back and attempt to land. But that decision was like, if I make the wrong choice, it could be the difference between life and death.

So it was a hard decision, probably the hardest decision in my life that I've ever had. had to make. But thankfully, again, I had a very experienced flight lead with me, my wingman in this situation, providing me mutual support, again, kind of encouraging me, supporting me to talk through that decision. And he said it's your call though, right? Like if you need to punch out, you got to go, right? Which is awesome, right? That he had that much confidence in me, that he empowered me to make my own decision, which also gave me confidence in myself, right? But it's also slightly terrifying now that the call is mine, right? The decision. decision is mine. I had a lot of time to think about that decision, a lot of time to think about

what could happen, what could go wrong. But I really felt very confident in my training and my preparation and everything that I had done leading up to this moment, right? All those hard things that I had done in my life really prepared me for this moment. I saw the video of your airplane after you landed it on one of the TV specials. I mean, that thing was just shot up big time. After you got out, you're like, I can't like, I landed. this thing. This is wild. And you looked at it. Like, what were you thinking? I think I was in shock. I was like, this airplane kept flying. I mean, I couldn't see the damage from my cockpit. It was all behind me. And so to get out and I hopped out of the airplane, I remember there were a bunch of

firefighters there waiting for the airplane. And I'm looking at their faces as they could see the back of the airplane, kind of just this look of shock and walking back there and seeing just hundreds of holes, a huge hole in the back horizontal stabilizer, which is in the tail section, just dripping with hydraulic fluid, you know, just completely dripping all over the runway at charred, completely like a fire when the fireball happened, just completely charred. And it was just shocking to me that that airplane kept flying, right? But no matter the damage, it could still keep flying, which was pretty awesome. When you share your key learnings from that pivotal moment in your life, what are some of the key takeaways, the learnings for those who are not flying airplanes, who are not in combat,

those who have more corporate leadership type jobs? What do you draw from that when you share with them to help them out? So much from that moment. And I've had almost 20 years now to reflect on it. I think one, it takes a team, right? Like I did not get home safely alone. I had a team of people. And some of them I didn't even know about, right? These were the F-15s providing air support overhead. There was a crash recovery team waiting for me. The rescue helicopters were on alert. And I had a very supportive wingman by my side, but it really takes a team.

Yes, I was flying that airplane by myself, but it really takes a team, especially the people behind the scenes that did all the work on the airplane. That's what helped me get home safely. That's one of the things that I think is really critical and stands out to me. and I'm obviously very thankful for that support. Some of the other things was for me watching from a young wingman, probably one of the least experienced members of the squadron at that point to see how a leader, my commander at the time,

how he and those moments of stress, the moments of chaos, the moments where quite honestly we all felt some sense of fear, how he could just create the sense of calm and give us confidence in our ability, while also pushing us, right, to do well, to do everything that we trained to do and then empowering us to make decisions because he believed in us. He knew we had the training. He knew we had the skills.

We had the resources. So it was just this great kind of dichotomy of being really hard on us and pushing us, but also being that supportive, kind and compassionate leader in a really challenging, stressful time. So cool. What does commander's intent mean to you? Commander's intent is a way that you can provide your intent, right? You're why the reasoning behind a decision or an order or a way forward and then allow your team to take action. So it's giving the guidance up front.

You're telling them why we're going to go do something. But then in the moment, you're giving them. you're giving them the freedom to take their own action, to make their own decisions. You're given them that little bit of the guidance, but then you're also letting them run with it. How would that work outside of the military? We talk about this idea of if you explain the why behind decisions, right? You explained kind of the context of decisions or new policies, new procedures in an organization, and then you let your lower level leadership run with it.

You give them kind of the background information, and then you let them run with it. You let them make their own decisions. You still have to monitor and provide some oversight, but you're now giving them enough background information, enough of the intent behind your decision making that allows them to understand it and be able to better execute it. Seems like the organization would have to be built on a bedrock of trust in order to operate that way. Trust is kind of the bedrock, I think, of most things in an organization.

organization. But certainly you have to, one, you have to be able to trust your team to make their own decisions. You have to trust that they understand your intent. So yes, I think absolutely that trust is critical. In your epilogue, you write a call to action and you share Theodore Roosevelt's man in the arena speech. What does that mean to you? The book is called flying in the face of fear. I think a lot of times we feel fear. We feel afraid. We feel nervousness or worry or stress about things. And we're, sometimes when we feel that way, we don't take action. We kind of freeze. We don't have hard conversations. We don't put ourselves out there. We don't try new things. Putting yourself in the arena is all about despite the fear, despite that worry,

despite the stress, that you're willing to step up and take action anyway. And as I look back on my career, I look at all those tough moments. And yes, I was scared. Yes, there was moments of fear. but I learned to take action. I learned to acknowledge the fear and then deal with it by being prepared, by putting in the work, so that in that moment when the time came, that I could take action. And I think that's so important for so many of us. I mean, I talk to my kids about it. I talked to the leaders and my organizations that I worked in about it because it is okay

to feel those things, but you still need to step up and take action and do something with it. You come across is so calm and poised. Great qualities in a quarterback. That's my background in sports and playing quarterback. Like you have those exact qualities that you'd want that you could walk into the huddle and own it. When distress happens, when you get sacked, you throw an interception, you come back. Usually this is a little bit of both. But I'm curious, was this part of your upbringing, part of your time in the military?

Is this just the way you were born, a combination? Like, I'm curious you come across as somebody who is like, I would want her leading my team. like that type of mentality. Where does that come from? I don't think it happened immediately. I will tell you that I think this is something that's happened over time. I think the more that I have put myself and been in kind of those stressful situations and also watched leaders above me act in those situations,

I realize how important is to remain calm. You're certainly like still being authentic to who you are, but you know you've put in the work. You know what it takes. realize the importance of like being calm and composed in those moments, letting your team members know that we've got this. We're going to be okay. It's going to be tough. It's going to be hard. There's still the honesty piece of that, but we're going to get through this together because we've put in the work. We've prepared for it. So I think it's everything kind of leading up to that

moment that has helped me. To me, it's all about putting the work in advance because when I've prepared, I've practiced, I've planned for kind of that worst case scenario with contingencies than in that moment, I feel better, prepared, more confident, more competent to deal with the stress. Do you go out and give keynote speeches a lot? I do. What's your prep process for that? The same thing, right? I prepare. I mean, to me, it's not a wing it thing. I'm not a wing at person at all because I've realized for me, that is what gives me the confidence. I think there is something good about fear and nervousness and worry because then we'll put in the work. We're not just going to wing it. We want to be ready.

We want to be prepared. So I absolutely prepare. I absolutely put in the work so that in that moment when I walk on the stage, I feel very confident about the message and the delivery. I found that preparation is one of the greatest medicines for fear, right? It's like do the work. The best of the best practice a lot. A lot more than you think.

They practice, practice, practice, practice, and get so many repetitions so that when they go out there, it feels like they're just talking. like, no, they're not. Just like a great stand-up comedian. Yeah. You think they don't work on, they work on every single word of every single bit for hundreds and thousands of times in order before you see it on a Netflix special. Like it's, it takes a lot of practice and work to make it look like you're just up there

kind of talking. One more question, Kim. You come across people who are a bit earlier in their careers. I would imagine they come to you for advice. So let's say someone is a recent college grad. They want to leave a podcast. positive dent in the world. They want to do good. What are some general pieces of life slash career advice you'd give to that person? I think probably one of the most important things is to go

find something that you're passionate about because I think it's so much easier to make a dent, to work hard, to put in the hours, to put in the effort when you are passionate about it, when you care about it. For me, finding my why and finding my purpose, finding my passion, And once I found that, it didn't feel like work. It was something that I wanted to do. So I think that's a big part of it is go find something that you love to do that you're passionate about. And I think you're more in a position to make a difference because you care. You're passionate about it.

You're willing to do that extra effort. What about though for the person who was not impacted like you were when you saw the Challenger explode or that didn't have this mindset of I want to go to the Air Force Academy, I want to fly, I want to be an astronaut. I come across a lot of people who are not, they don't know what they, they get to the end of college and they still don't know what they want to do,

whereas you knew in fifth grade, this is what I'm going to do? What about for those who are more either confused or not as clear as you were? Because I think you're in the minority there of being that clear of what you want to do at a young age. Funny, these are conversations that I'm having with my son right now.

It's just try some things out, right? It is okay to change your path. It is okay if you realize that it's not for you. I mean, and that's happened throughout my career. You find a new path. You change the path you're taking it. And that is okay. I think there are many ways that you can serve and make a difference without being in the military by doing something that you're passionate about.

I mean, being a leader of a team, you are responsible for people's livelihoods, right? You are responsible for helping them to put food on the table. No matter where you were, you have a role to play. to help people live their best lives. So I think you can make a positive impact in many ways. You just have to take a look at it from a different perspective. But it's okay to try something new, and it's okay to realize that it's not working and choose a new path.

You have to choose the path that is right for you. Kim, thank you so much for being here. The book, it's called Flying in the Face of Fear, A Fighter Pilot's Lessons on Leading with Courage. I highly recommend this book because you do something that's hard. You tell a lot of fascinating personal stories and then tie it to be applicable to the reader

so they could implement it, not just be entertained by the stories, which you are, by the way. It's very entertaining, but also it's applicable to your life, the reader. So I highly recommend flying in the face of fear of fighter pilots lessons on leading with courage. By the way, how many people still call you killer chick?

I get a lot of Casey, not so much killer chick these days. All right. Not as much. just Casey, but I love it. But I certainly recommend that, and I love this conversation. And I love Kim, if you and I could continue our dialogue as we both progress. This was awesome. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you. Wow. What a leader. I admire Kim's demeanor and her calm, cool, charisma. I mean, you could tell she's been in some stuff. And she's, I mean, 100 combat missions.

I want to be more like that as a leader. And so I really enjoyed this one. I hope you did as well. A few takeaways from my notes. The story of being hit in Baghdad and having to make the decision to eject in a really bad place or to try to get the airplane back to the base. I just love how she was able to draw from her training

and she's crediting her team and others who helped her. It's such humility. I found that to be a commonality among people who sustain excellence, especially in her case, just an amazing story, and I'm so glad she told it. Then the man in the arena, when we feel fear, sometimes we freeze and we don't take action. The man in the arena speech that she writes about is all about acknowledging the fear and moving forward regardless of it. We all would be better for living this way. And then at the beginning part of the conversation, we talked about her getting rejected from the Air Force Academy.

And how did she respond from it? She'd say, I'll screw them, I'll go somewhere else. She said, hmm, I'm going to try harder. In fact, I'm going to write a letter every single week. And then she even planned to go there, even if she hadn't got in and say, hey, maybe somebody will get scared or won't get off the bus. I'll take their spot. I just love that mentality of if we want something, we go for it.

And when we get rejected or we get knocked down, what do we do? We keep going for it. We go even harder. We become the person who writes the letter a week saying, I belong here. I want to be a part of this. And that's how she became what she became. And so I just think so many aspects of her life story are amazingly inspiring and I draw a lot from it. I hope you did as well.

I want to say, again, thank you for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two. Hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leadership with Kim Campbell. I think she'll help you become a more effective leader. And because you continue to do that and you continue to go to Ryanhawk.net, which will launch you into iTunes, Apple Podcasts, and you write reviews and you rate the show, hopefully five stars, and you continue to give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to soon. Can't wait.