The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 517: David Lieberman - How To Never Be Lied To Again, Decipher What People Really Think, What They Really Want, & Who They Really Are (Mind Reader)

Episode Date: March 12, 2023

Text Hawk to 66866 to become part of "Mindful Monday." Join 10's of thousands of your fellow learning leaders and receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right... Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12   https://twitter.com/RyanHawk12 David Lieberman, Ph.D., is a renowned psychotherapist and the author of eleven books, including the New York Times bestsellers Get Anyone to Do Anything and Never Be Lied to Again. He has trained personnel in the U.S.  Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote: "People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." A person looks at the world as a reflection of themselves. If they see the world as corrupt, they feel on some level that they are corrupt. If they see honest working people, that is frequently how they see themselves. "How someone treats you is a reflection of their own emotional health and says everything about them and nothing about you." Speaking negatively behind someone's back orients you to look for the negative in others. Wouldn't we rather spend time with people who seek the greatness in others? "The less emotionally healthy a person is, the more they denigrate the world to accommodate their own insecurities." Knowledge is not power. Knowledge is a tool. How it is wielded makes all of the difference. Real power is the responsible application of knowledge. Word usage: Let's take the example of giving a compliment. A woman who believes what she's saying is more likely to use a personal pronoun. For instance, "I really liked your presentation." However, a person offering insincere flattery might say, "Nice presentation," or "Looks like you did a lot of research." In the second case, she has removed herself from the equation. The Art of reading the bluff - When a person is bluffing, they are managing others' impressions to convey the "right" effect and serve a personal agenda. Conversely, the authentic person is not interested in how they come across because they are unconcerned with their image. "People who bluff habitually overcompensate, so you can uncover a bluff instantly by noticing how someone tries to appear." Relationships: Whenever David speaks to couples, he's always on the lookout when the word we is conspicuously absent from the conversation. We are attracted to positivity. It reflects humility. "Humility connects you to the ownership of mistakes." Humility can recognize a weakness in self. The difference between a sociopath and a psychopath: A sociopath has no conscious. They are very dangerous. A psychopath's wiring is off. They were born that way. Life and career advice: Find a passion that contributes to the world. Don't get too caught up in image or ego. "You can be anything. you're good at. as long as they're hiring." -- Chris Rock

When you speak negatively about someone, it doesn't just reflect that person. It speaks volumes about you, but also it orientes a person's thinking to the negative. Meaning, if you're looking for the best in others, in yourself, in the world, that is going to be your worldview. We're always focused in on the negative in other people and what they're doing. Then we're going to be looking for the negative, and that's going to become our world. Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here.

Text, Hawk to 666866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right. You'll also receive details about how my book The Pursuit of Excellence, will help you become a more effective leader. Text, Hawk to 66866. Now, on to tonight's featured leader. David Lieberman is a renowned psychotherapist

and the author of 11 books, including The New York Times Bestsellers, Get Anyone to Do Anything and Never Be Lied to Again. He has trained personnel in the U.S. military, the FBI, the CIA, and the NSA, and its instructional video is mandatory for psychological operations graduates, big time. During this conversation we discuss a lot of things, but a few of them are how to build genuine confidence and deal with imposter syndrome. Then why people have a tendency to talk negatively behind someone else's back and why us as leaders should do the opposite of that.

and then how to manage a boss who is a narcissist. And unfortunately, this happens from time to time. Ladies and gentlemen, it's the great David Lieberman. David, it's great to have you here on the Learning Leaders Show. Welcome. Thank you so much, Ryan. Pleasure. Ralph Waldo Emerson, he wrote, People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world

is also a confession of character. A person looks at the world as a reflection of themselves. and you've written about this in your books. I found it interesting and true and fascinating. What is it about that statement that rings so true with human behavior? That's a great question. So we all have, you know, our own biases and our own filters. And people don't see what is.

We very often see what we need to see in order to complete our personal narrative. So, you know, if a person needs to see the world as, you know, corrupt and awful and awful, that's because of their own stuff. And very often how somebody sees the world is a great reflection of how sometimes they see themselves. But then you dig deeper and we realize you can ask the question is, why do they need to see the world this way? Why? What is it about their own narrative, you know, needs to be congruent with their. this worldview. Where does this fascination with human behavior? I mean, you're a psychotherapist, an author of tons of books. New York Times bestsellers, you're working with people, some of the highest level of government workers, companies,

leaders from all over the world because you've become really renowned when it comes to understanding human behavior. Where does this come from? Is it from something your upbringing or did you develop a curiosity from meeting interesting people. I'm curious. You know, I've always been fascinated by human nature. I remember, you know, actually, Dax Shepherd, who has a podcast that asked me the same question. I didn't have a good answer for him, and I need to come up with one. He wasn't satisfied with that. That I just always had a fascination with people understanding human nature. I've had typical upbringing, no skeletons in the closet to speak of. So, you know, if you think about it, it's interesting, is that people have

different leanings. I tell this to my kids, it's that if you look at someone who becomes a physician, a doctor, for example, you know, some people gravitate towards different parts of the body. You know, and some we ask ourselves, I could see cardiology, ophthalmology, but why go into whatever it is? But everyone has their own passion, their own leanings, and their own fascinations. So human nature is just mine. What are the ways that you thought about human nature, human beings, our behavior that were some of the biggest surprises have you dug into the research over the years? That's a great question. I would say just how unchanging it is. And I'm not sure that that's a

satisfying answer, but you would think that human nature would have evolved to some degree. We would have been gotten more sophisticated or more moral or less more, whatever it is. And certainly the times change our behavior. But at a its core human nature has fundamentally not change which gives us an amazing opportunity because you know once you understand the template once you understand people then you just have to plug in what's going on in our world but you know there is as you know someone once said there's nothing new under the sun well I think one of the natural questions someone who follows your work would ask it when especially when they see the books when one of them's called never

be lied to again or get anyone to do anything make peace with anyone right if God were your therapist you can read anyone which is interesting one of the natural questions I would think is David how do you know when someone's pulling one over on you how do you know when someone's lying directly to your face like what are some of the tells what are some of the behaviors the actions of somebody who's lying directly to you right so one of the advantages that we have is that you know as you for my books that they're not one-trick ponies you know you know very often we rely a lot on body language and body language has always been popular uh in part because there is some truth to it but in part it

gives us degree of confidence a degree of security uh knowing that you know we could sum someone up and if their arms across they must be defensive they scratch the nose they must be lying if they look away, they must feel guilty. But the truth is, reliance on those sort of outdated signs are going to give us a lot of false reads for a couple of reasons. One is we're talking about them. We know them. A sophisticated liar is going to avoid doing those things to give himself away. And two is, is that you're going to want, you know, to rely on much more sophisticated tools and techniques. So in Mind Reader, for example, we use something called the field of psycholinguistics, which looks at how people use language. And you don't rely on just one or two markers, but rather

in a complete sentence or in a conversation, you can look at 9, 10, 11, 12 different markers to see if the person is being honest. So the long way of answering your very good short question is one marker would be how people use pronouns. For example, the research shows that when a person believes in what they're saying, they're more likely to take I ownership of it and put the pronoun I, me, my in the sentence. So, for example, if I were to say, hey, Ryan, I like your tie, or I like your presentation, that's a little different from me saying, Ryan, nice presentation, or it looks like you put a lot of work into it. When I take the linguistic I out of the equation, there's a greater likelihood, obviously not far from conclusive, a greater likelihood I may not be, believe

in what it is I'm saying as much as if I took ownership of what it was I'm saying by including myself in the sentence. When you're working with leaders, I would imagine that this language and usage is big. One of my pet peeves when I've been in rooms with other fellow managers or leaders is when they'll say something like, I told them what to do, they're not doing it, as opposed to a good leader who takes ownership, we, And I would say that at times, and sometimes those rooms would get a little contentious. What are you talking about? They're not doing it, and you said what to do. It's we.

Like, we are together. And so occasionally, too, you'll have a boss who will say, hey, man, you need to figure this out, as opposed to, I think, a great boss who would say, hey, man, we're going to figure this out. We're going to get this done. So from a leadership perspective, maybe people don't even realize they're doing this, David. So let's make this an educational, like, useful takeaway to implement immediately. When it comes to language, specifically when it comes to leading a team and people individually, too. Right.

So, yeah, the language is more than just a reflection. It cultivates that type of atmosphere. And just as you noted, it's a turnoff. It's a visceral turnoff when somebody says, you know, I told you. As a matter of fact, in any sort of conversation, you know, I remind people that as soon as you use the word you, it's natural for the other person to get. get defensive. So you make what's called I or me statements, meaning I'm having a hard time with this rather than you made a mistake because as long as I'm taking ownership of my feelings and my thoughts and not blaming you, you're not going to get defensive and it's going to be a much

more productive conversation. But as soon as I say you did XYZ, unless you're in an extraordinarily good space and emotionally solvent, you're going to get defensive if in fact, you know you feel guilty you feel bad whether you did it or didn't do it it's our inclination vis-a-vis the ego to get defensive so certainly the language again doesn't just reflect how a person sees the situation but will cultivate a response commensurate with the language that's used yeah so what are some like initial immediate takeaway some action someone could take to because I do think some people do this without even realizing it they just this is just how they

naturally talk and they don't hear themselves or here it comes across and people if they don't have someone giving them feedback then they just keep doing it what are some actionable things people do right now right well that's just it in so far as they don't realize they're doing it which is great for us in so far as it's a window into that personality which is why the field of cycle linguistics is so effective because we're not monitoring these types of things and ultimately what a person can and should do is to establish that connection and that is empathy and validation meaning people don't care what you know to they know that you care you know it's a familiar affirmism so if i'm going to give you rebuke i first have to empathize with

your situation and understand where you're coming from validate your experience for example you know let's say you were supposed to finish an assignment which you didn't do i can come in and say how come you didn't do the assignment or i can say look ryan you're an amazing employee i know you work really hard here, you've been overworked and you do a great job. Empathizing with your pain, validating, say, you know what, if I were you, I would have thrown my hands up a long time ago. I really appreciate the effort, time, and energy put into it, in which case now I've got that connection, through empathy and validation, you know where I'm coming from. And now I simply would say something such as, here's what's going on and not tell you you did anything

wrong, just saying, you know what, I was hoping we'd be able to, you know, get that assignment and finished before such and such happened. How are we moving along on it? How's the progress coming along? Because I may not have all the information either. And so if I just come in and say, hey, what's going on how come we haven't done such and such? Maybe my superior told you to drop it and do something else.

I don't know. But no matter what happens in this conversation, I want to make sure that our relationship is improved rather than injured. I read a lot about bluffing. Okay. So I've played poker, not as much recently, but I have for years, definitely in college. definitely in college and afterwards. And I know from my experience, and I'm not a great player, but did okay, when I am bluffing,

meaning I don't have a good hand, but I'm betting as if I do, I am a lot less nervous than when I have a big hand and I'm bluffing. And I thought I was a rarity for that. However, I read your work and find that's actually normal, right? It's more normal to be far more nervous to bet with a big hand hoping to get paid off. than it is to bluff with a bad hand. Can you, can you sure more about that? Sure, the psychology is that if you've got a good hand,

all the possible permutations and possibilities go through your head and you don't want to blow it, you don't want to make a mistake. So you're really going through a lot of calculations and equations to see, you know, what is the best way to optimize this? You don't want people to fold and so on. If you've got a lousy hand, it's very binary. Either you're going to bluff them or you're not. Certainly you want to bluff optimally or go out.

But when you really, you're bluffing, you've got less at stake. And because you've got less at stake, then you're going to be less nervous. And outside of poker, how does this work? Because from what I'm reading, the person bluffing is actually trying to manage others' impressions that they're conveying the right effect, right? Or serving a personal agenda versus the person who just simply tell. the truth they're not even really thinking about that right they just kind of share the story and i think that's a big difference too when it comes to knowing when somebody is telling the truth or not

and the old adage that i share now as a dad and i i try to live by is one of the primary reason to tell the truth other than it's the right thing to do is then you don't have to remember anything right because there's a story to remember you just say what happened versus if you're lying then you got to remember your story and then they ask you to retell it and what do you know you mess it up so i think that's the big part too with with with uh bluffing or lying versus telling your truth that's right and certainly in law enforcement you know that is one of things that is done is to ask the person to continue to go over their story and they look for inconsistencies because if a person is making it up it is very hard to keep track of those details and going back to bluffing

you know one of the examples i give is that you know when you've got a really good hand and it comes time to bet Are you going to put the money in quickly or you're going to deliberate a little bit and maybe give the impression that you don't have a good hand? Right. So you're generally going to deliberate a little bit. And when you have a poor hand and you want to bluff, obviously you're going to want to give the opposite impression and put your money in very quickly. Now, what's glaringly obvious is this discussion that you know exactly what the typical, again,

not pro poker play is going to be doing. they're going to give the impression opposite of what is really true. So if a person puts their money in very, very quickly, obviously they want to give the impression they have a good hand, but if in fact they have a good hand, they're going to want to give the impression that they don't, in which case they would put their money in haltingly and consider it. And this carries over into many aspects of our life

in terms of watching how people try to manage their perception. Do you find yourself because of all of your work, always on the lookout for people trying to pull one over on you? Yeah, no, so what it does is you sort of develop, you know, that sixth sense, that over time it just sort of becomes integrated. So you will feel, and this is just the feedback that I've gotten over the years, is that, yes, there's a learning curve and you begin to become paranoid about everything. And then once you sort of integrate it, you're much more calm because you easily can sort

of filter out who may be an issue and who may not be. Whereas without the information, you constantly have your antenna up, possibly worried that somebody may very well be trying to pull the wool over your eyes. I'm curious. Is it harder to develop friendships for you? I mean, what's it like? What's a good friend for you? Or what's it like for you to develop friendships? That's a great question.

You know, I always tell people is you can't hold somebody accountable for what they're thinking. So you have to be careful of that, knowing that. everyone's entitled to their privacy and thoughts. But no, I like to think that it really allows you to optimize relationships because even though you may know more than the person is revealing, you're also able to understand human nature a whole lot better. And you just, in general, cut people so much slack that it's really hard to do something that's unforgivable.

Is there ever a good time to lie? Clarify that question better, please. there are some people who say you don't want to be brutally honest if you're brutally honest all of the time it could hurt people's ceilings of course so I'm curious like how you view that spectrum no I mean as a married person and yourself

you know you recognize there are times for you know for social norms which dictate us to you know massage the truth as it were and anyone that tells you know the unvarnished truth at the expense of people's feelings is not being smart at all. You know, being honest is important and it's an incredibly necessary value. But bringing peace to the relationship and doing what's smart is going to override that. So if you're going to hurt somebody's feelings or embarrass them unnecessarily or maybe, you know,

risk exposing, you know, something about yourself that you don't necessarily want to reveal, that the person is not entitled to know. Certainly there are reasons to have, you know, lies of omission and lies of commission, meaning you're perfectly entitled to leave information out that might offend somebody unnecessarily. When your wife is trying on a pair of pants and you don't think they look good, what do you say? Well, you know, if my wife is listening to this, anything she tries on, she looks great in, okay? Are we lying now? What are we doing?

You got to work with me here, Ryan. come on i have i have a rebuttal to this i'm curious i wanted to see what you said first go ahead fine uh yeah some i remember some comedian once said he goes my wife asks me if you know these pants make her look fat i said no the three big macks do but not not the pans um no look i you know if my if i believe my wife is asking uh for you know for my genuine uh input uh then i would you know i would let her know that, you know, maybe another outfit might be more flattering on her. But again, you have to know the person. You have to know the dynamics. You know, sometimes you have a great relationship with somebody, but you know they're not in the space necessarily hear the truth. So be smart. You know,

I mean, sometimes, you know, we want to have an open, honest conversation. But you know yourself, when you're just in that constricted consciousness, that space, you don't always want to hear an unvarnished truth. You want somebody maybe to say something that, you know, again, as you said before, allows for that connection, that empathy validation, and then later on you can revisit it. The timing of, you know, what we say is as critical as what it is that we say. Yeah, I'm with you. I mean, I was joking around, but I do think it's important if you have a partner who actually wants your honesty when they ask that question, which I happen to have one. But I don't just like, I'm not, I try to be kind with the feedback by saying, I think the other.

boots or the other pants look better I think I like the other ones better something along those lines and then she knows because if you say everything oh no you look great you look great you always look great well then then she doesn't know like well do I because you always say that and I think it's like with a lot of things there there is critical feedback that is needed to be given sometimes in order to have credibility for when you actually do really like the thing and I think that's important to establish for sure and also you want to be a smart and that sometimes, you know, it sounds like somebody's asking for opinion when really they're just

asking for confirmation that they made a right choice. So the person asks you your opinion before they buy something, you can assume that they want genuine feedback. If they've already bought it, obviously they want to feel good about the purchase and not made to feel foolish, in which case, you know, you'd moderate your response. I saw you wrote about sociopaths and psychopaths. Yeah. Now, you know this stuff way better than me. I hear all. these words, narcissists, sociopath, psychopath, a lot of people just kind of bunch them all together. Yeah. And all of us in the world have had to deal with these types of people, some more than others.

How do you differentiate between a psychopath and a sociopath and a narcissist and what are some signs of these of each of them? Good, very good. So you can go nuts. You can turn into one of them just from trying to get clarity, certainly by asking Syrian, you know, everyone's got their own, you know, formulation. But just to give you a broad perspective, there are different personality disorders. One of them is narcissistic personality disorder. All personality disorders, and this is for now, they all have one thing in common.

They all seek connection, and we're worried for connection. The exception is the antisocial personality disorder, which houses both the sociopath and psychopath. So somebody's suffering with sociopathy or psychopathy, that is a person who, sadly, have no conscience. And, you know, it makes us feel good to believe that everyone deep down inside is good. These people, and this is not a moral judgment, who knows what, you know, they've been through to arrive at where they are. But nonetheless, they look at other people as a container, as a vessel, as a tool. And those are the most dangerous because the narcissist is still seeking connection. And even though they can be very, very difficult to work with and live with, ultimately,

they want some sort of relationship. They're grossly incapable of it because they suffer with perverse low self-esteem. So if I don't love me, I can't imagine why you would love me. so I can't really receive it. At the same time, I can't really give it. So I'm sort of cutting myself off, even though I desperately want a relationship. A sociopath or psychopath, and the difference there, by the way, is sociopathy comes about more from the environment, from a childhood that was traumatic and chaotic to an extreme. and while someone who suffers with psychopathy, a psychopath, generally is understood to be the wiring is off,

meaning even if they came into the most loving, beautiful, calm home, the trajectory for their mental health is going to follow that path. Let's say you work for a narcissist, okay? The first two are pretty scary, but the third one, while not fun, is really. What are some ways to other than quitting? What are some ways to manage that situation? Right. So be smart. You know, if you understand the psychology, then you can be the one, you know, like the marionette,

the pulls, the strings of the puppet rather than the other way around. First, I understand you're dealing with somebody who has very, very low self-esteem. We assume that a narcissist is someone who is filled with self-love and really loves themselves. Not the case. It is a ego that compensated. ego that compensates the feelings of guilt inferiority shame they hate themselves so when you pay them genuine compliment praise show appreciation acknowledgement ask for their advice you are giving them a oxygen supply now you're going to find that you know so i'm sorry so first off the

the the response is often i'm enabling the behavior or i'm just feeding it You can either starve the monster or you can feed the monster. If you feed the monster, he's not going to bite your arm. If you starve him, he will. He's not going to wake up and smell the coffee merely because you're withholding adulation and praise and all of that. And it's our temptation to because we want to sort of introduce them to reality. It doesn't work.

If they're a genuine narcissist, you want to allow for them to see you as a conduit to feeling good, which why, again, genuine praise, compliment adulation. give, ask for their advice, their opinion. Become somebody who feeds them, makes them feel good. And they will be much less likely to turn on you. That's just, you know, the basics. While not an ideal situation, everyone, not everyone, but a lot of people will find themselves every once in a while if you had a long enough career in that situation.

And I found two giving them credit, even when they don't deserve it, is useful. You do all the work, your team does all the work, and you just give them 100% of the credit. Now, these are all short-term things. That's also true, right? They need constant fuel. They need constant adulation because it goes away so fast. That fuel burns quick. But I found that's another useful one is just to just give them all of the credit all the time.

For sure. And you're right. It's a cup without a bottom. But giving them credit, you know, it is to our benefit because the truth is most people know the score. they know the story and all it does is show you in the optimum light and in general by the way when you don't as you know as you know when you don't care who gets the credit you accomplish a lot more and people work a lot harder uh and we tend to in terms of leadership we admire the person who gives other people the credit so we think that you know we're not going to be seen in an optimum light because somebody

else is getting the credit when you give credit to someone else just think about the mechanics if i'm giving you credit that means it's mine to give right i own it now i'm giving it to you you, in which case I am the ultimate owner of that credit. I don't necessarily love all that, by the way, like that feels a little shady that I just said that as I was rethinking it. But I've done it. I mean, I've done it. I don't, I don't, because in a way, it's lying. Like, in a way, it's lying. This person didn't do anything. In fact, they actually, there's, every once in while you play for a coach and you win despite the coach, not because of them. And, and, in giving them credit, it feels like it's not necessarily telling the truth. But we've been.

there and they're battles like they're they're they're kind of daily battles and you try to win for the day so that you're not just depressed or or in a really bad place so i think sometimes you got to do what you got to do just to kind of get by and hope that it's just a temporary situation that's right it's a strategy right in other words you know this is part of your game plan because at the end of the day it makes your job and life easier right right and and you also know like i think anytime you you run into one of the situations is being curious instead of judgmental what can wonder why they got that way and I want and what can I learn from this situation because you can learn from every single situation in life good or bad and usually we learn

and you almost remember the bad ones more than the good ones so what can I learn from the situation knowing that it's not going to be a long-term thing but it is it is where I currently am and I want to be a I want to be a decent person for the one for the loved ones in my life so this is like sometimes the only way you can cope with that so one of the things as a dad And my wife and I, we try to talk about with our children is it's very normal and easy to spread negative gossip, especially as kids, like talk behind people's backs, like people bond over gossiping. I don't like it, but I know it's a human nature. But what does it say about a person who seems to consistently and constantly talk negatively about other people behind their back? Yeah, okay, you know, it's intuitively, it's that this person needs to feel better about themselves

and wants to be a center of influence and information. But you're right. You know, you know, there's a couple of foundations when it comes to parenting. You know, one is in terms of honesty, you know, I always tell my kids, you know, if I ask them if they've done something and they don't want to say they could plead the fifth. Why? Because I don't want them to get into the habit of lying to me or to anyone. So pleading the fifth, like basically admitting, it yeah but that's just it it's it's admitting it without saying it in other words my child says i plead the fifth is that i don't if if they're not able to tell me the truth then they don't have to tell me anything we both know what it means obviously you know it's a little bit different in our illegal system

but pleading the fifth is that you know is the right against self-incrimination so and i always tell them whatever it is you've done pales in comparison to lying about it so the first thing is you never want to get a child into the habit of lying. And the second thing is, sure, it's speaking positively. And this is something also that actually we do in our home as well, is that, you know, when you speak negatively about someone, it doesn't just reflect that person. It speaks volumes about you, but also it orientes a person's thinking to the negative. Meaning, if you're looking for the best in others, in yourself, in the world, that is going

to be your worldview. And that's the optimum worldview for a, certainly for a child to develop. to be able to see the best in others, in themselves, and the world. But if we're always focused in on the negative in other people and what they're doing, then we're going to be looking for the negative and that's going to become our world.

So true, man. I mean, that is such a critical point in an element. From a leadership perspective, every once in a while the boss who talks bad about other people that report to them, I report to you. And you're talking about them right now to me, like we're buddies? No, we're not buddies.

doing the same thing. To me, that is one of the most critical elements is make your default setting speaking kindly about other people, finding their strengths and telling other people. We say spread positive gossip, talk positively about people behind their backs to their face too. Tell them, right? Tell people when they do something like it's great to give them an honest, genuine real compliment. But talk kindly behind other people's backs. It's amazing the type of conversation you have, like Like you ever wander in? I'm sure you have this David, where you wander in at a party or something.

And you're kind of on the back end and they're talking bad about people. Yeah. Right? And they're just like, they're like having a contest of who could, who could have the worst story about somebody. Versus you wander into another little group and they're talking great about people. I mean, where do you want to hang out? Like where do you want to be? Where do you want to spend your time?

It's so much more enjoyable to be around those who look and celebrate all the greatness of other people. That's partially why I love doing the show because I get that I get lots of opportunities to do it. And to me, that's that's like that's just a much more fulfilling and enjoyable way to live. It is. It is. And we are attracted to positivity. And certainly the hallmark of a leader is, you know, you can denigrate the competition or you can talk about the positive qualities in yourself and what it is you bring to the equation. End of the day is we are drawn to positivity because that reflects a humility. And, you know, when you talk negatively about others, it reflects an arrogance and ego, which repels us.

So when a person is positive, we are attracted to them, and it allows for that atmosphere just to be more positive. But make no mistake, the boss that is critical of everyone and everything is going to create a culture that is critical of everyone and everything. Why do you think it is, it's become almost normalized to speak negatively behind other people's backs? I think in part because, you know, we have a culture of extremism, meaning that, you know, in order to feel like our voice is being heard, we have to harden the lines around us and we have to be, you know, much more to the extreme. And, you know, in the old days, you go back to politics, you know, it was okay for two people to see things differently with different perspectives. Today, it's not just that you're wrong, but you're bad for thinking the way that you do. I put a moral stamp. Forget about the fact that we see things differently.

You're wrong. I'm right. And you're a bad person for thinking that way. And so, you know, as we become less emotionally healthy, I think that the statistics bear that out, we need to be more critical and more judgmental and more condemning because what it does is it helps to fortify our own identity and our sense of self. So if, you know, the very reason why we judge in the first place is because the ego says is that I won't be secure unless I can define, categorized label and if necessary, condemn you and be very, very clear. But it requires a degree of vulnerability, a degree of honesty, a degree of, you know, courage in order for me to look at you, to talk to you, to have an open conversation without putting you into a box.

because the ego tells me I've got to be sure I've got to forge an unknown into a known and I've got to make sure I categorize everything. But when we do that, we don't really have a conversation. We see a projection of our own securities. I can't really talk to you because I'm just seeing and predicting and trying to control what's going to come next. What do you think of ego? Is it good or bad or is that a bad question? It's a beautiful question and it's so misunderstood.

Here's how it works. In broad strokes, self-esteem refers to the degree to which I love myself and feel worthy of good things in life. That's a healthy. As my self-esteem decreases like a seesaw, the ego is now going to expand. The ego is a false self. It exists to compensate for feelings of guilt, inferiority, and shame and so on. The ego's job is to project an image of what I'm not, but how I want the world to see me. So the bigger the ego, the more egocentric a person is, by definition, the less they like themselves and less emotionally

healthy they are because it's the ego that blocks perspective. So we talk about a person having a big ego and a confidence. We conflate a lot of things there. Confidence is not self-esteem. They're two different animals. And the ego is inversely related to the degree to which a person genuinely loves themselves. And an ego-oriented person we know is sees things in black and white. They have to judge. They categorize. They take everything personally. They have a hard time accepting responsibility and fault but high self-esteem equals humility meaning i know that i'm great but at the same time my being good or great doesn't make me better than you makes me better off but not better than one of my close friends is brilliant he's a mentor i look up to him in a big way and when i tell him that

and when i i ask us advice frequently he probably gets tired of it he'll say man i don't know what i'm doing And I'm just figuring it out. Like, I don't really know what I'm talking about. You know, like he's, and he genuinely, he's not making it up. Like, he genuinely believes that. But every time I ask him a question where he speaks, you know, I'm writing it down. I'm, like, thinking of how I can implement it. And it's amazing how that works, isn't it?

That the one who, like, has the most great stuff to give truly thinks he doesn't have it figured out and is just trying to kind of go from one day to the next. Like, has confidence for sure, but never claims, like this is the answer. He's like, I'm just trying to figure it out, man. That's right. That's right. That's beautiful. And we are drawn to that humility, and that's a difference between confidence and self-esteem. Again, self-esteem is the degree to which a person loves themselves. He clearly has high self-esteem, which produces humility. At the same time, confidence is how effective we are in a certain area or comfortable we are with a certain traitor characteristic. So, you know, he can consider himself

or we can, you know, have high self-esteem and be a bad tennis player. My ability to play tennis is not good, so I've got low confidence. Doesn't mean I don't like myself. So what happens is when you've got somebody with low self-esteem but high confidence, that's going to produce the most arrogant, obnoxious guy in the room because his whole identity is built around the fact that he's smart or he's good-looking or he's talented in a certain area, but he has no developed sense of self and certainly no appreciation of his self-worth.

So how does one build confidence? So again, so confidence is going to be how effective I am in a certain area or comfortable with a certain trader characteristic. And that's going to come from being more effective at whatever it is I do, developing my talent and my skills in order to be better at what it is I do. If I want to work on myself esteem, there's no shortcut. I have to make choices that allow for me to feel better about myself. But any time I give into my ego or overindulge in the body and excess sleep,

exercise entertainment, it chips away my self-respect and I like myself less. So we gain self-esteem and like ourselves more really by being more responsible and acting with congruence and authenticity with our real values and our real sense of self. but confidence is about being effective at doing something. That's right. The way to get effective is you just got to do it a lot, I found, whether it's hosting a podcast or throwing a football as I used to do. I mean, so you're saying if someone's like,

I don't have that much confidence, actually, let's switch that to. I just got promoted. I crushed it as an individual contributor as a sales rep. This is me, right? Then I get promoted, and I'm a manager now, which is a completely different job than being a killer sales rep. Peter Principal comes in. Well, hopefully not, but maybe.

I wrote about that and welcome to management. But so they may have self-esteem because they did well as an individual sales contributor. They were the number one rep or whatever. They get promoted and they have imposter syndrome. They think, I don't belong. I can't believe they chose me even though, right? So how does one deal with imposter syndrome and get more confident at a job that they got hired to do? That's a great question.

So it's interesting is that imposter syndrome is more of a function of self-esteem than it is confidence. Let me just sort of flesh out how that works, is that when you were effective at your previous job, you had built up a degree of confidence in that job. That has nothing to do with whether or not you've got self-esteem. We've got people who are confident in their jobs, who like themselves, and people. who are confident in their jobs that don't like themselves, right? So imposter syndrome is when a person feels that they are unqualified to be in a position in which they are qualified for. They don't feel like they belong. Now, it's certainly natural as we transition to a new position to feel a

little bit like, you know, a duck out of water. And that's not necessarily imposter syndrome. An apostasy syndrome comes from a gnawing sense that we're going to be discovered. We're going to be found out that we don't really belong. And that, interestingly enough, has less to do with confidence and how effective we are, because you can have somebody, quite frankly, who's very, very effective at their job, but still suffers with an imposter syndrome, because that really is, and it's misunderstood,

it really is a function of self-esteem, not of confidence. Hmm, so are we using the wrong words? I mean, how do you deal with that, though, if you feel, I had this genuine feeling, and I get the question so much, because I work with a lot of people who are newly or recently promoted. Right. in a quiet moment one-on-one with me, not in front of their teams. They're like, oh, man, I don't know, man.

I didn't realize it consisted of all this stuff here. I don't know. I don't know if they made the right choice. They're doubting themselves, right? They're still, they still crushed it in their last job. They're still a good person. They're working really hard, but they have doubts. Again, right, good.

So those are normal and natural. That's not going to qualify as imposter syndrome. If you're coming into a job and you, and you are still learning, there's a learning curve to any job and you feel insecure about the job and you know you feel like maybe the youngest guy promoted or you don't have you know the experience that that's normal and natural because there are things to ping it to in other words there's a very legitimate reason why you not feeling so confident is because it's day one on the job you don't have a fraction of information you know what's going on an imposter syndrome which is by the way you can have people who enter that

same equation and they're full of bravito and they don't suffer with imposter syndrome because it's got nothing to do with how effective we are. In much the same way, you can have somebody that's been in a job for a long time. They are incredibly effective, and they suffer with imposter syndrome, because that it goes through, again, their overall feeling of self-worth, whether or not they feel worthy of being in this position. It's got nothing to do with their competence. We call it, we call it an imposter syndrome.

It's natural to assume we mean the degree of competence, but that's not what is at the core of it at all. I think that that's a big one. It's almost a red flag, though, if somebody doesn't have some doubts, don't you think? Like, I would think it was a red flag because that shows like a lack of humility. I mean, it's something new. You should be like, oh, I don't know, like wondering a little bit. Of course.

And look, the person who's not afraid to make mistakes, you know, the person who's not afraid to admit he doesn't know something, that's the one that's going to learn and going to grow and do well. But if you come in there overly confident or insecure, unable to ask questions, unable to admit any faults or deficiencies, you're going to obviously have a big problem because learning is going to require that risk of vulnerability of being less than perfect, seeing yourself as less than perfect, and other people seeing you as less than perfect. And if you can't do that because of the ego, right, then you're not going to grow in the job and you're certainly not going to be

effective. That's so hard to do. When I got promoted from a director to a VP, actually changed companies and I changed industries from being in the legal field to now working in health care. Every single person that worked for me, directors, managers, and sales reps, they all knew more than I did. It was such a humbling experience. I'm going to ride with you to go meet with these clinicians. And I hate that I'm not a big value ad. I would say that. But I need to learn.

And the only way to learn is I'm going to listen and I'm going to take notes. And after the meetings, I'm going to ask you questions. Will I try to do something during the meeting? Maybe if it presents itself because sometimes the title can be useful. but man it was tough it was really hard to go in there being the dumbest person in the room every single time including people who worked for you it's it's really hard but i think it's necessary to approach and to learn and to get better of course of course and you've got the right mindset because you also have a degree of self-esteem knowing that you know you can fail and not be a failure you can make a

mistake and, you know, not be bad, you know, the ability to be able to be vulnerable and venture out and risk falling down and getting back up is going to allow few to grow. But if a person has a mindset that, you know, that failure is going to mean that there's something wrong with them or that other people will see them in a negative way, they're never going to learn. They're never going to grow. How can you tell, David, if this is not just in a personal interaction, but partially there. But how can you tell if somebody is genuinely interested in you?

Well, I assume that they are. Right. So, those jokes, it works, yeah, right? So you know what? It's interesting is that very often something like that can be glaringly obvious. But, you know, like, you know, we see what we want to see. We hear what we want to hear. So certainly going into it, you know, objectively, is going to be our greatest,

our greatest weapon. But it depends. So if you're in a conversation with somebody, you know, we've all been there. You know, you're talking and you're not that interested in the conversation. You know, you don't provide a lot of feedback. There's not a lot of follow-up. There's certainly you're not facing the person. You're looking to sort of get away.

So if you're speaking to somebody and there's an actual back and forth, like in this conversation, which, by the way, is absolutely delightful. You know, there's a genuine interest on both of our parts. And you can hear it. I think the listeners will be able to as well. You know, there's a genuine curiosity. and that's what's driving the conversation. They're not one-word responses. No one's looking to get away from the other. There's certainly visual cues that you can pay attention to if the person is facing toward you, facing away.

And certainly the person actively listening, following up with questions. But if you find that they are not fully engaged, either physically present or engaged in the conversation, I think that would be just a basic flag. You've had to have that friend, and I do, and I'm thinking of one, I love them, okay? But I seen the interaction in person with him and the girl, okay, walks up to her. I've seen the text following up, and it's hard because I love him, but I'm like, dude, she's not into you, man. And he doesn't see it. And he's smart, smart guy, good guy, doesn't see it. Why is that?

Do we just want to, we fool ourselves? or like, what's going on there? Again, it's one of the biggest ways to be able to really read people is to move our own biases out of the way. And of course, we can't do it completely because we've got a whole subconscious layer there. But being able to see what you don't want to see and hear what you don't want to hear will allow for you to let reality come in. And right, what is blatantly obvious to you completely alludes him.

And one, again, a very good indicator is the degree of engagement. You know, a person who is interested is looking to extend and further engage in the conversation or the correspondence. A person who's not interested, you're just going to find that they are not going to want to engage with you. There's not going to be a lot of follow-up. There's not going to be a lot of curiosity. You're going to get maybe polite responses, but there's not going to be that level of engagement.

Exactly it. It looks like you're reading the text right now. So you work with leaders from all over, like some of the highest level leaders. When you think about the ones who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time, what are some of the commonalities among them? You know how they say in real estate, location, location, location. So when it comes to leadership, humility, humility, and how that manifests in a myriad of ways. You know, first, you know, you get somebody up there who acknowledges that he made a mistake.

know, any leader that you weren't going to find out about, instantly you feel more connected with him because he took, you know, what prevents us connecting with other people is our ego. And so as soon as he acknowledges he made a mistake, takes ownership of it, we instantly feel close to the person. Now, it's a little counterintuitive because we assume that a leader is somebody who might, you know, be, you know, charismatic and flawless and present this perfect polished image. But we don't connect with someone like that. And we don't connect with someone like that. we don't follow someone like that because we know it's inherently inauthentic. It's not real, right?

Because real people make mistakes and they acknowledge them. So we feel closer to somebody when they are able to acknowledge a mistake, a fault, a weakness. Certainly sharing the credit with other people is something that exemplifies humility, doing jobs that are quote unquote beneath you. All of these are reflection of a person because what's at the core of humility, again, is self-esteem, a person who genuinely loves them. themselves, which means by definition their ego is not engaged. They are able to appreciate their greatness at the same time connect with us.

And humility is a tremendous reflection of that. I agree. With that said, when you're working in the CIA, the FBI, when you're working with Fortune 100 CEOs, is that common? Do you see that a lot? See, what's so beautiful is you just said, I agree with that. And with that said, you didn't say. but you didn't say you see that that is a very I don't know if you did I know you didn't do it

purposefully with forethought but you can tell a lot about your nature it's not necessarily to be confrontational it's to connect it's you were looking to acknowledge what I said uh and then really challenge me on it well nice as possible way well first of all I hope if you were deciphering how I'm using language throughout I would love a recap afterwards or we keep it recording just to hear it didn't think that through at all I just I know I know that I know and and I think part of it is conversations are more interesting when you don't just agree all the time and and I'm not purposely trying to make it more interesting I'm following my genuine curiosity and so by the way I frame that question was I may have some

doubts I may have doubts like how common is it to see the head of this organization the head of that company to for a person who has as you say humility humility humility to rise up and get promoted seven times yeah if they started as an entry level person how common is that because I'm also thinking about that person who is a frontline manager who had just been promoted for the first time that wants to be the CEO and they say well David said humility humility humility and in my experience I love that I try to be that, but it's not always the case for the people who are at the, at that C-suite level. True. Excellent.

And yes, I know your questions are driven by natural curiosity. But you're right. That doesn't mean that arrogant, obnoxious people who are very, very talented and skilled aren't going to push themselves to the top. That's not a contradiction. But if you're asking me, look, let's flesh this out. maybe maybe i've got it wrong but if the opposite humility is arrogance right and you've got two people working for you one who is humble and one who is arrogant who just obviously are you going to

want to work with are you going to want to promote who's got the best people skills it's best social and soft skills it's going to be the humble person because the arrogant person again can't be wrong that never admit mistakes they know it all they don't take they take credit for everything so by definition we already know that the humble person is we're going to like more and and we're going to get along with them better, which the research shows they're gonna be much more effective in their position. Humility doesn't mean that we talk about every fault

and failure and insecurity that we have. That's not what it means. It does mean that we are able to recognize a weakness in ourselves, and when necessary, we can illuminate it for other people. That draws us closer to that person. You know, you go back to Robert Kennedy, the Bay of Pigs,

And some people may be a little bit young to remember that. But why did his popularity go up afterwards was because he had made a mistake. And any time, if you think about in the world stage, people who make a mistake and they acknowledge it, were like, wow, there's somebody who takes responsibility. And ultimately, do you want to follow somebody who takes responsibility or somebody who refuses to accept any responsibility and accountability? Right. I mean, whether it's the president of the United States, whether it's a leader of a corporation, whether it's a guy behind the counter, whoever says, who do you want to work for more by the way? And who do you want working for you? The person says, I'm sorry, I made a mistake on your order. I just wasn't thinking. I apologize. Or you know what? He messed me up. It's a no-brainer. Did you, by chance, I don't know if you watched the Super Bowl, the defensive back for the Philadelphia Eagles who got called for the holding penalty

on the last play that kind of essentially set up the chiefs to win the game. And the fans were going crazy. It's rigged, it's a script, like all these stupid crazy. I get it. Fans stands for fanatics, so people want to believe, like, all this stuff that their team should have won. But regardless, they asked the guy after the game, is Bradbury, Bradford? I hate that I forget it. But it starts with that.

And he said, yeah, I grabbed him. I grabbed him. Wow. Yeah, he said, I did it. He goes, I was hoping they wouldn't call it, but I grabbed him. He fully, like, without even, I think, it was right after the game. So it was still emotions are high. Yeah.

And he said, yeah, I did. I did it. And I thought, I want to sign that guy. I want him to play on my team. He just, he didn't say, oh, the ref shouldn't have called it, man. He wasn't, because the facts were, they hadn't called a defensive holding penalty the entire game. So obviously guys were holding and they weren't getting, they weren't calling. it. But in this particular case, they did. And he said, yeah, I did it. I did it. And all it made me want to do,

it's just right off the point of what you're saying is it made me want to sign that guy to my team if I was a general manager, you know? Yeah, I agree entirely. And again, who do we want working for us, the same people we want leading us, a person who can acknowledge responsibility, even when it doesn't look favorably on him, even though no one would have found out and he might have gotten some flag for it. You realize there is somebody who is the hallmark of, you know, of humility. And that, again, is what connects us to other people. And that's the kind of people we want leading. You probably also get questioned from those earlier in their career.

And I'm curious for somebody who's a recent college graduate, early 20s. They want to do good. They want to leave a positive dent in the world. What are some general pieces of life slash career advice you'd give to that? person. That's beautiful question. So first off is do what you have a passion for doing that contributes to the world in some positive way. You know, people that go into a field because it's going to make them more money, if they don't have a passion for it, they're just not going to be as successful, certainly not as fulfilled. And the money is, you know, not that money is not needed, but if it's the

pivotal criterion, you're going to find yourself just feeling burnt out and, you know, it'll be a midlife crisis when you'll shift gears anyway so find something you have a passion for doing that that can contribute uh in a meaningful way try not to get too caught up in the image of what other people will say and think because that's just the ego telling you that i need this job so you know this kind of job so people will think i'm a good uh a purpose don't think i'm valuable or i'll get you know the praise or i'll present a certain image anything that we do that just for an image drains our authentic self. So find a genuine passion that you have. See how it connects to helping and building and, you know, up other people and making things better. And you'll find this congruency and this

authenticity and you'll generate your own passion. But if you do something that just lacks integrity or you're doing it for the wrong reasons, it's like having one foot on the gas, one foot on the break. You're always going to feel that sort of jerking motion and never really get that internal momentum. I mentioned a few of your earlier books. The most recent one that I highly, highly recommend people read is called Mind Reader, the new science of deciphering what people really think, what they really want, and who they really are.

We covered about 6% of that today, so there's plenty more to dig into when you read Mind Reader. I really appreciate your time being here, David. I'd love to continue our dialogue as we both progress. Sure. Ryan, you're a terrific talent. You're a lovely person. and I genuinely enjoy this conversation immensely. Thank you.

Thank you so much, man. I am genuinely fascinated by human behavior and learning from people like David who have studied this for decades and have a deep understanding of why we do what we do and how us as leaders can be better by understanding ourselves and understanding others. A few takeaways from my notes.

Walter Emerson's quote, people do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character, a person looks at the world as a reaction of themselves, how someone treats you as a reflection of their own emotional health and says everything about them and nothing about you. Then speaking negatively behind someone's back, it orientes you to look for the negative in others. And as leaders, shouldn't we spend our time seeking the goal? greatness in others and sharing great news with those in our care? I think so. I think that will make us better. It'll orient us to look for the positive and find all of the great out there.

Then word usage. David, I know, meets with couples. And whenever the word we is absent from the conversation, it's a huge red flag. And I think the saying could be true in leading a team. Think about the words you use. Do you say I and you or I and they or is it we and us? I think from what I've gathered, the most effective leaders seem to use the phrases we and us much more than I and they. And the same is true for your relationship with your partner. Once again, I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two. Hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with David Lieberman. I think it will help you become a more effective leader. And because you continue to do that and you continue to write reviews on Apple

podcasts, which you can go to by going to Ryanhawk.net that launches you right into Apple Podcasts. You write a review, rate the show, hopefully five stars. And doing that spreads the message and continues to give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to soon. Can't wait.