The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 518: Colin Coggins & Garrett Brown - Becoming A World-Class Sales Professional, Avoiding The Peter Principle, Loving Your Customers, & Living By The Unsold Mindset

Episode Date: March 19, 2023

  Text Hawk to 66866 to become part of "Mindful Monday." Join 10's of thousands of your fellow learning leaders and receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right... Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12   https://twitter.com/RyanHawk12 Colin Coggins and Garrett Brown are adjunct professors of entrepreneurship at USC's Marshall School of Business where they teach the popular class they created, "Sales Mindset for Entrepreneurs. " They are also authors, speakers, longtime sales professionals, and best friends who met while working at enterprise software startup Bitium, which they helped lead to an acquisition by Google. This odd couple first connected over their shared obsession with the importance of selling, and have made it their mission to uncover the unexpected and inspiring mindset of the highest-achieving sellers on the planet. The most impactful sales professionals are learners. They consume information and ask lots of questions that they are deeply curious to know the answers to. They don't go down the list of sales discovery questions. It's from a place of curiosity. "Noone has ever changed the world without moving people." That's sales. An abundance mindset — Collin was meeting with a new sales rep named Matt that worked for you at Bitium. Matt sat down on the couch and loved it. He asked who made it and Collin didn't know. So he flipped over the cushion, saw who made it, realized they were a potential customer and made a note in his phone to connect with them on LinkedIn and call them. Matt has an abundance mindset. "Great sellers see opportunity where others don't." World-Class sales professionals love the process. When making promotional hires/decisions, "create a culture that's not pulled up. It's pushed up."  When promoting someone to be a manager, look at those who are known to help others. They are pushed to management by the members of the team because they are so helpful. Being a "pathological optimist" — Colin told a story about taking the first flight with his whole family (wife Margot and two young boys) and despite the chaos of crying and trying to take care of young children, Colin loved it and told Margot "it would be a great story one day." She called him a pathological optimist (not meant as a compliment, but he took it as one). Act like a teammate, not a coach: Will Smith's manager, JL, told him to turn down a $10m offer for a movie called 8 Heads in a Duffel Bag because it didn't help them pursue Will's goal of being a big movie star. (Even though both of them didn't have any money at the time) The Partnership: "Colin, thank you for seeing something in a slightly insecure, overly analytical introvert and deciding to throw in with me." The class they teach is called "Sales Mindset for Entrepreneurs" Colin & Garrett don't teach a typical sales class focused how to "build rapport," "handle objections," or "ask for the close." Instead, they help students understand why the most successful people on the planet aren't successful because of what they do, they're successful because of what they think. We all sell, every day. Sometimes it's ourselves, sometimes it's ideas, and sometimes it's products. We truly believe that the world would benefit if EVERYONE learned how to sell authentically, whether you're a "salesperson" or not. Great salespeople are not remembered for the statements they make, they're remembered for the questions they ask.  Ask better questions, get better results. As mindset guys, we get a little bit obsessed with one-on-ones when we lead teams, so we geek out when experts like Jeanne shed light on new questions to ask that can help bring out the best in other people. At some point a long time ago, someone studying great salespeople noticed they were mirroring the people they were talking to. So they started training salespeople to mirror the body language of their customers. One MAJOR problem... These great sellers weren't connecting with people because they were mirroring, they were UNCONSCIOUSLY mirroring people 𝙗𝙚𝙘𝙖𝙪𝙨𝙚 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙮 𝙝𝙖𝙙 𝙖 𝙘𝙤𝙣𝙣𝙚𝙘𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣. If you're sitting there thinking about crossing your leg when your customer crosses theirs, you can't possibly be having a good conversation. Science shows that mirroring is a natural inclination when we're AUTHENTICALLY engaged in a conversation with someone and are relating to them. So instead of ACTING like you're in a deep conversation by copying someone's body language, work on caring enough to get into that deep conversation in the first place.

And so the question is, if everyone has access to the same content, to the same books, to the same podcast, why is it in any given organization 20% are thriving and the other 80% are trying to figure it out? And it's because of how they consume that information. Welcome to The Learning Leaders Show, presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text, Hawk to 666866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world will receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your weekoff right. You'll also receive details about how my book The Pursuit of Excellence will help you become a more effective leader. Text Hawk to 66866.

Now, on to tonight's featured leaders. It's Colin Coggins and Garrett Brown. They are the authors of the Unsold Mindset. They are longtime sales leaders, practitioners, teachers, and best friends. They met at the software startup Bidium, which they helped lead to an acquisition by Google. They teach the popular course they created called Sales Mindset for entrepreneurs at the University of Southern California's Marshall School of Business. A few of the topics we discuss. Why having an abundance mindset is useful for both sales professionals and sales.

leaders. And then the most impactful questions to ask in a conversation with anyone to get to know them deeply. And then the one quality found in all of the most productive sales professionals and leaders that Colin and Garrett interviewed over the past four years. Great storytellers, insightful, really funny guys. I think you're going to enjoy this one. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Colin Coggins and Garrett Brown. Colin, Garrett, it's so great to have you here on the Learning Leaders Show. Welcome. Thanks. Good to be here. To start fast, I wanted to focus on something you guys write about called the abundance mindset.

And this is for Colin. So you were meeting with a new sales rep named Matt that worked for you at Bidium. And I love the story because I read that he sat down on the couch and he loved the couch. He asked who made it and you're like, I don't know. It's just a couch. And so he actually flipped over the cushion and looked. looks at it and sees who made it and then realize that they could be a potential customer. And he made a note in his phone and connected on LinkedIn.

Can you tell me the story, Colin, when you're sitting down with Matt and this thought process of having an abundance mindset and what he did? Yeah. It's a great story because the context of it is that the number one salesperson in the company came to me and said, your newbie, Matt, is hoarding leads. Right. So like she would come in in the morning, he'd already be there. She'd start prospecting into San Francisco and she had to get out of the city because there was anything left according to her. Or like when she would leave, he'd be prospecting into Sydney, Australia. And so when she would come in in the morning, it's like either talk to your boy or I'll be prospecting in the outback. Right. And I'm sitting here and I'm like, my number one hitter is telling me there's an issue. There's an issue. So I bring Matt in. I go, hey, look, I want to talk to you about something. Sit down. And we had this. like beautiful sort of distressed restoration hardware like brown couch and he sits down on the couch and I go so like I want to talk to you about something and as I open my mouth he's like

shifting his tookus he's like moving his butt back and forth on this couch and I'm and I'm looking at him and look though we're all weird right salespeople are all weird and everybody sells right so like I'm sitting there and I'm like what are you doing and he looks at me and he says this is a really nice couch I go you know what you are right, it is a really nice couch. So look, here's what I want to talk to you about. And before I can even get another word out, he stands up, turns around, puts his butt in my face, starts flipping over these couch cushions as if I'm not sitting there, finally finds the tag, puts the cushions back down, opens his laptop as if I'm not sitting in front of him, goes on LinkedIn and looks at me

and goes, oh my God, they have 5,000 employees. They're definitely using cloud apps. Like, do you mind if I prospect into them? And I look at him. I laugh. I go, no. And then he goes, okay, cool. He shuts his laptop, moves it over. Okay, what do you want to talk about, boss? And I look at him and I go, absolutely nothing. This dude literally found deals and couch cushions. And so the story is that these great sellers, they see opportunity in places that most don't.

Like we're talking about my number one person who was not number one for too much longer because Matt became number one. right who was saying there wasn't enough leads and then having someone that was finding leads in couch cushions yeah it's just amazing to see because you guys have worked in sales you teach class on sales we're all in sales every day and there's the difference between those sales reps who seem to always find something to complain about versus the ones who they always view the world as okay where's the next opportunity or i think i can figure it out because I've worked with hundreds of companies now since moving into what I do now. I will tell you, every company has their stuff, right?

Every company has something bad. Every company has things about them that they have issues and problems. The difference between the ones with an abundance mindset who make it happen over time or they're looking at couch cushions. They're not complaining. They're going out seeking opportunities and viewing the world as their opportunity. And I think that's just a really big key to this that not only works for sales, Garrett, but also just works in general in life.

It definitely does. And, you know, I'm smiling because you're talking about how this mindset is, like certain people have it and they realize that if they think with abundance, they're going to find stuff. And Colin, Matt, I remember a few weeks later, wasn't he driving to Vegas on like a Friday night with his friends? He was driving from Los Angeles to Vegas. And he calls Colin up and he goes, hey, Colin, I'm driving past this truck. Can you look up this company for me to see how many employees they have. Like he literally, he was on his, with his pals on his way to Las Vegas, and he was still finding deals.

So once you can kind of train yourself to get into a certain kind of mindset, and this is what Colin and I talk about in our class and in front of audiences and in the book, it's like once you learn to train yourself to think a certain way, it just becomes easier all the time to think that way. And this kid definitely had that. The word sales, Colin, I love to focus on this because you asked this question, my Dad posed this question for 30 years when he worked in business, which is like, what's the first thing you think of when you think of a salesperson? And people usually talk about bad experiences, buying a car or something along those lines.

But sales is, I think, one of the most noble professions in the world. We're all doing it all day, every day, even if you don't realize it. Some of us carry a bag and have a quote of some don't, but all of us are in sales. Colin, can you talk to me more about just how noble of a profession this is? and how we're all doing it all the time, even if we don't realize it. Yeah, I didn't even know this was a 12-hour podcast, but this is perfect.

At its core, no one has ever changed the world without moving people. Not an engineer, from Bill Gates to Steve Jobs to Martin Luther King, Jr. Or like, no one has ever chased their own dreams, built meaningful relationships, And none of that happens if you don't know how to move people. And so this concept that sales is yucky and smarmy and manipulative and pushy,

like that all feels very true to a lot of people with and without sales in their title. But when we were writing the book, we went and asked all of these hitters, right, the number one sales professionals out there. Like, who's the greatest salesperson you know? And they all gave us people that they admired that were revered and that didn't have sales in their title. So at some point, it's like, hey, the number one salesperson at Beyond me, why are you introducing me to the leader of marketing at Adidas? Right? Like, why am I getting introduced to Jeff Aeroff, like the SVP at Warner Brothers, because these are the type of people that

know how to create agency in people. Like, they know how to make people feel like they are part of the decision-making process. Like, they're the smartest people in the room and they're trying not to be. Like, these are the best salespeople in any room. And I, I, I was, you know, we were listening to like these great sellers with sales in their title say, these are who I look up to. And we're like, well, this makes sense. And that began a really interesting trajectory for this book where it was like, no, this is not about what great sellers do. It's about what great sellers think.

And the greatest sellers on the planet were starting to find out are the exact opposite of who people think they are. Right. They're not gregarious. They're not sociable. They're not self-confident. They're the most self-aware people in the room. They said some shit. They know it didn't land.

They can course correct real time. They can talk to their people and know that their people aren't listening. They're waiting to speak and adjust. These aren't competencies that come with selling cars. This is like selling an idea, selling yourself, selling products and services. There's 20% of people that are doing something special. And then there's 80% that are trying to figure it out. And those special people are just hyper authentic.

to the point where they give themselves permission to do things most of us are intentionally hiding. I don't like to always bifurcate things and say it's either zero or one. But for this question, Garrett, what do people think make up a great sales professional versus what actually makes up a great sales? And this is for both of you guys. So Garrett, go for us and Colin. Feel free to build. That's a great question.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you started to touch on it. In every keynote that we give and in any room that we're in, we always ask these two questions. And the first question we ask is what you mentioned, which is what do you think of when you hear the word salesperson? And it doesn't matter if we're asking salespeople this question, non-salespeople, the answers are always the same.

It's always the smarmy, pushy, used car. Like there's always, always, always a negative connotation. And then when we ask them the second question, which is who's the greatest salesperson you can think of, alive, dead, you know them, you don't know them, it doesn't matter. Then we start to hear all of these amazing names that are not actually salespeople. And the crazy thing is, you know, over thousands and thousands of times or people that we've asked this question to, the top two answers that we get to that second question are Steve Jobs and Martin Luther King, like people that are revered in their spaces.

And a not too distant third is a family member, my mom, my brother, my son. And so there's this crazy incongruence between what people think of when they hear the word salesperson and what they actually, you know, who a great salesperson is in their mind. So that's where we live. We live in that incongruence. So people think that a salesperson has to have all the answers. And they think that a salesperson is supposed to be able to overcome an objection immediately and know all the details about their product. But all of these people, whether they were a CEO, a top salesperson. a cupcake shop owner, an actor, an artist, or Snoop Dog, and we talked to all of them.

You know, that wasn't who they were. They were using their own authentic traits to their own advantage, whether they were good at something or not good at something or whether they were passionate about something or not passionate about something. What really great salespeople actually do is leverage those strengths and show up in a different way than everybody else so that they're not just asking questions that they think they're supposed to ask. They're asking questions that they genuinely care about the answer to, and they're coming across differently. The difference in a conversation between someone who,

you know, you're the 37th person that they have to call that day out of 50 people or 75 people versus somebody who's genuinely excited to talk about you and has questions that they actually want to know the answer to feels very, very different. I agree with all that. To me, it boils down to this word learner, they're, I don't know how many people listen to this podcast on average, right? A lot of people. Yeah. Okay. Everyone is going to hear the same words coming out of all of our mouths when they listen to

this. But just like in any given organization, right, 20% of these people that are listening are going to take this information and thrive with it. And the other 80% are going to try to figure it out. right, that 80-20 rule. And so the question is, if everyone has access to the same content, to the same books, to the same podcast, why is it in any given organization 20% are thriving and the other 80% are trying to figure it out?

And it's because of how they consume that information. So these great sellers at our core are learners. Like Garrett said it, and it sounds so trivial. It's the most important thing we found. They ask questions they actually want to know the answers to. They don't ask leading questions. They're getting in the conversations and they think differently about the people that they're talking to. So they ask different questions.

And a lot of times, the questions that they're asking, people have never heard before. So you've got this person who's very purpose driven and sees their purpose in you and like sees themselves in you. And they're asking you a question. Most people would never care to ask. You've never heard it before. and now you're ideating for the first time in real time on an answer. All of a sudden, the sale is done because you're not sold. You bought.

That's your answer. You took ownership in it. That's not a leading question. So when you think about who these great sellers are, they're the antithesis of who people think great sellers are because they're not no at all. Like they don't have this belief superiority comp. We talked to an advertising technology executive, like a hitter. and she does not like technology.

And she told us, like, early on her career, she figured out this, like, magic pill by just being honest with people when they would ask her about the tech, instead of, like, giving the high-level response that she thought she was supposed to say, she'd just say, like, I don't know. But she loved people. So she would go and fight like hell to get the answers. And she was telling us that she was getting more credit for fighting for answers and being resourceful than she was for acting like a knower you know so we I could go on for way too long

and Garrett smiles because I go on tangent so I'm going to stop myself but that's just like one example that they're not knowers they're learners are there specific examples or what are some specific examples of quality questions are there commonalities among the questions asked I know that's it's what they genuinely are curious about I understand that like foundational element of it of leading with this intellectual curiosity but but there are there let's get tactical for a second i guess are there some that you kept hearing over and over as you're interviewing all of the the greatest sellers in the world you know it depends on the situation it's not the we've said multiple times and it's important to say again like they're asking questions that they actually

want to know the answers to so in any in any sales situation in any situation where you're leading other people. There are certain things that you have to ask and that you have to know, right? And so a lot of times you're going to ask those questions. A typical traditional salesperson is going to ask those questions because they have to and they're going to go down their list and they're going to check those things off. The difference is that those people are only extracting value. Tell me what you need. Show me how to sell you. What's your, but like give me information. When I hear that question, what keeps you up at night, to me, it's like, oh, no, I'm being sold. and people don't want to be sold. They want to buy, right?

It's such a great example. But what we found, all of these great sellers, all of these great leaders are incredible at asking questions that they care about. And we called them impactful questions. And these are questions that don't just extract value from the person that you're asking it to. It's a question that adds value by causing them to think about something they've never thought about for the first time in real time.

So it's generally some kind of open-ended question that they, again, actually want to know the answer to, that it's something that they haven't heard before. So, you know, we started collecting those like gold. And we can talk about some examples of them. But the important thing is that if you just write down a bunch of impactful questions and ask them because you think that they're impactful and you think that it's going to cause somebody to think a certain way, then suddenly it loses its impact because it just becomes another one of those what keeps you up at night. question. And so, you know, what we found is these people collect these questions, but they genuinely care. And so everybody's going to ask the first question, you know, what do you need? How can I help? What's the problem? But the second question and the question after that, those follow-up questions, when these people care differently, those questions come out very

different as well. Colin, what do you think? We have heard multiple people ask what rules should we be breaking? We've heard multiple people ask that question. They ask the process. They ask the aspect, what rules should we be breaking? And we've heard interviewers ask hiring managers that question too. Now, it could be a good question, right, depending on why someone asked it. So here's why, here's why Garrett and I were even reluctant to put some of the impactful questions in the book, which we did, though, is because think of mirroring. Like, what people, when people started mirroring people, it was when somebody was really smart

and they said, oh, great salespeople are really engaged. They end up mirroring people. So we're going to act like the sales person that's really good. And we'll just start acting like we're engaged by mirroring. Instead of writing the book that was like, hey, this is why salespeople are so engaged. So to answer your question about like, why are these people asking such great questions and why do they care differently, it's this malleability of the brain conversation that that we keep coming back to.

Like, if you look for the good in someone, you'll find it. And if you look for the bad in someone, that you'll find it. And these people are looking for things that a lot of other people aren't. And then these questions start arising. And I'll give you an example. The Bob Dylan story in the book, right? For the audience, I'll just give it really quickly. We often get hired for consulting jobs.

A lot of times, the people that we are consulting are older than us. At least one of us, for sure. And so, and so, yeah. And so as we get in this room, long story short, this, the only person in the room that was the hitter, like the number one guy, he was just really upfront about us not needing to be there. Didn't they see any value in us. And so we were like, okay, we'll tell you what.

We have this exercise that we want you to do. You don't need this, but everybody else does. So if you can just be the example, this will work for everyone else. we want you to fall in love with a prospect. And he looks us like, we're crazy. He's like, what? Like, yeah, we want you to take three minutes and find three things that you love about this lead. And he just, like, looks at us and he goes, I'm not falling in love with anybody.

This is the cheesiest thing I've ever heard. In fact, I thought you guys were the authenticity guys. Right? And we're like, just do it. And he's like, we're not, I'm not doing it. And then finally, we're like, why? And he goes, because it's not a qualified lead. And we're like, fine.

We'll tell you what. You don't have to take the lead. Just do the exercise. And then we'll give the lead to someone else. He goes, fine. Gets on his laptop, the entire sales force behind him, about 30 seconds in. He's looking up on LinkedIn. And he goes, huh?

And we go, what? And he goes, this person graduated college is the same year I did. And we're like, do you love that about him? And he's like, no, I don't love that about him. Keeps going. A couple seconds later. later, huh, what? This guy went to the University of Minnesota. You love the University of Minnesota? No, I don't love the University. A couple seconds later, he looks up at us and he goes,

but Bob Dylan went to the University of Minnesota. And Bob Dylan's my age, and I do love Bob Dylan. So we go, thank you very much. This worked, right? Like the whole point was just that you are going to show up and ask different questions now because there are answers that you want to know about that most people don't. And we're like, we'll give this lead to someone else. Now we'll give it to a newbie. And he goes, not a chance. I didn't spend three minutes trying to fall in love.

I want to see if this is real, right? Because you're falling in love with the idea of who this person is. These questions start to formulate in your head that you've dying to know. So you get in there, you do a normal discovery. At some point, you start talking about the career trajectory when watching this. And he figures out a way to get into Dylan. And he starts asking questions about this guy's college. experience that no one has ever asked a CTO. No one cared to ask these questions. And that got bought.

Like it was an unadulterated brofest. We're not proud of it. It was really funny to watch. And at the end of it, he comes back and the guy goes, look, he didn't buy because I fell in love with him. He bought because we had a product that fit his needs. And Garrett and I are like, yeah, I guess, but you would have never taken the lead in the first place. This book is about why great salespeople are so engaged and how to create and scale the infrastructure, like the leaders that are listening, like what people are good at and what they love doing are not always the same thing. But when you can figure out a way for those two things to converge, right, when you have a culture where people are looking for the good and what people are

saying and doing, selling is not a bad word anymore. I'm really glad you told that story too, not just for the reason of questions, but that's why we're so obsessed with mindset. And and shifting the way that you think in order to shift the way that you show up. Because there's a traditional sales training, a three by three that people listening might have heard of before. Well, they'll tell you to spend three minutes before a sales call or a sales meeting, finding three things about the person you're going to talk to you that you can leverage in the conversation, that you can use to build rapport, that you can use to promote your

product, whatever. And the subtext is always bothered calling me because it's like it's always about how do I leverage this against the person that I'm selling. And so the example that Colin gave is something that we teach and that we talk about in the book is spend those three minutes because the research is important. But instead of finding stuff that you can leverage, find those things that you actually love about the person. And we're talking about the real L word and we realize how cheesy that can sound. But think about the difference in a conversation between somebody, again, that's just a name on a list versus somebody that you're so excited to talk to. And so that was what that exercise was. And that's

why our class is called sales mindset entrepreneurs and why our book is about mindset and why we're so obsessed with it. I never really loved the product. I thought it was a good company. I was selling a good, solid product that was useful. It was needed. I actually fell in love with the process of meeting the person, understanding their business, and just genuinely trying to help them. I mean, as simplified as that's as simplified as I could put it, that the fact that what I was offering would make their life better. That is all it takes. And I think if you show up in that manner,

because basically what you guys are saying are be authentic and be genuinely a likable person, and people buy from people they genuinely like. Now, the product does have to, you know, it's got a hit, right? But for the most part, that's the differentiator I'm gathering. I'm not trying to simplify your whole book into one sentence, but it's be authentically you, be genuinely likable,

Be a great listener. Ask even better follow-up questions than initial questions. And we're going to get somewhere showing up in that regard versus what keeps you up at night, what your budget, that type of thing. Yeah. You touched on a lot of key concepts. The book, in totality, it feels like a third of our class show up every week because they want to learn how to sell themselves. I think they want to be able to build meaningful relationships.

They want to be able to ask questions that they actually want to the answers to. Like when you talk about like people liking people like themselves, yes. But what we are focusing on is recognizing and admitting you're imperfect. And so is the person you're talking to. You're flawed. And so is the person you're talking to. And when you try to be the best version of yourself to show up into these conversations and act like someone you're not, because you don't think your flawed and imperfect self is equipped for this sales situation. So you show up as what you think the best version of a salesperson looks like.

And then we smell it either because you sound way too perfect. And we know that's not true because there's no such thing as perfection. During lockdown, we saw these two distinct groups of sellers. flip-flop in the rankings. Like during lockdown, these, these, across multiple verticals, there were these sellers that were doing exceptionally well during lockdown, but they were underperformers before COVID. And we had a, and we had the similar groups, similar verticals that historically were the top performers.

And during lockdown, they were underperforming. And so when we went and started looking at all the tape, what we saw was that most of the conversations sounded the same, like at the onset. So you'd, like the first group that was all of a sudden doing really well, they would enter most conversations saying, I don't even know if we should be having this conversation right now. Like, thanks for showing up. That is my two-year-old behind me. That is my wife with a mask chasing him.

That's school in that corner. Yes, that's laundry. Right. Like this is very weird. And I'm just calling out the elephant in the room. And every time, almost every time, the person on the other end of the Zoom, the reciprocicates. was so beautiful because it was so obvious that they were living through a shared experience. They would just go, oh, thank God you said that.

This is my first pandemic too. You know, I mean, they start catching a, listen, I don't think we've ever seen a customer and a seller, regardless of who that is. If that's a boss and, you know, their people or an investor or actual customer and seller, we've never seen two people on opposite sides get on the same team through a shared experience in like the first 10 seconds. And that was this aha moment for us. Because the only reason why they were comfortable sharing this authentic, imperfect side of them

was because they assumed the person on the other end of Zoom was going to the same imperfect situation. And that is the microcosm for this larger conversation that we're seeing across all great sellers. They know the person they're talking to. is exactly like them, right? Whoever they expect them to be, that might be buttoned up and perfect.

But they're hoping, to your point, they're just like me. They assume they're living through a shared experience and that's the vibe. And then obviously, you know, Garrett, the second group did the exact opposite, right? They just showed up and they're like, hey, thanks for coming.

Here's the agenda. Let's get started. It's funny it found even more so today, getting informal quicker by my language. You know what I mean? By calling a prospect a dude or like it's as weird as it. Like I do that. When I make introductions,

they're always very informal, usually by texts now. We're not robots. We're humans. We say, dude. This is how we talk. I'm not going to get formal. And when you do that,

it's amazing how fast, I just did one three hours ago. It's amazing how much quicker people connect. When you skip the part where you have to be formal and you just go straight to the informal and all before you know it you're you're you're almost like friends you're you're you're on your you're on the path as you guys would say to falling in love and that's like a i don't know i i just kind of stumbled into that over the years of getting past the formalities and get to the informal you get closer quicker i think you know

we're meeting somebody for the first time and you jump on a zoom or on a call and you start to just immediately connect and have this amazing conversation. There's been a couple of times where we've been having conversations and I would stop the conversation and go, just hit record because this is actually what people want to hear, right? And sometimes if you're in a formal setting, it takes a little bit longer to get there. You eventually do. But for some reason, when guards are down and when people are just connecting human to human versus, you know, the stereotypes that we all have in our head and there's, there's a lot of science in this book. We talk about schemers schema, which is basically that we have this image of when somebody is trying to persuade us or influence us or convince us or sell us,

we have this image in our mind of what that is supposed to be like and we put our walls up. And so it takes time to break that wall down and it takes authenticity and credibility and a bunch of other things. But when you're just in a normal setting, getting to know each other, that goes away. And so whether it's the falling in love or the other mindset things that we talk about, that's really what it is. How do you get yourself into that state as opposed to this, you know, this role of a seller versus a buyer or a leader versus somebody you're trying to influence and so on? You saying, dude, is like you being vulnerable and authentic. Like you're showing the side of you.

And what makes you great isn't that you said, dude. It's that you've given yourself permission to say, dude, because you know that the person on the other end uses that word normally. You know what I mean? But that wasn't a tactic. Right, right. It's just how you normally talk to your friends and you just skip the part about not being friends and we're just going to go straight to it. That's your permission. You know, you giving yourself that permission is actually what makes you special. I remember showing up when I was engaged and I would like tell people I'm sorry being late.

My wife wanted to like discuss wedding planning. Like she wanted to discuss the difference with tulips and boogum bilias, right? Like I gave myself permission to just open up and immediately be like, look, I'm sorry. my fiance is really, really like getting into this wedding planning. And people would, the reciprocation, just like when you call someone dude and they go, oh, finally, I'm talking to a real one. Like everybody that would hear my fiance statement, they respond. They'd be like, don't worry about it, Colin.

It gets way easier on your second marriage. True. That's a quote. Right. Because I give myself permission to just be honest with them because I don't think they're going to judge me because I see myself on them. I think that they're normal, meaning they're abnormal, just like me, that gives them the ability to look for the good in you.

That's what sales is, right? Like a successful seller, like people believe in you. They're looking for the good in what you're saying. They're looking for the good in what you represent. One of the stories you guys write about when I believe it was in a section of acting like a teammate, not a coach. Will Smith had a manager whose name was, or nickname was J.L. J.L.

Yeah. Will had told J.L. I want to be the biggest movie star in the world. I want you to help me do it. And at one point, when Will was, I think, didn't make, had not made any money yet, he had gotten an offer, a big time offer for a movie. Can you guys share the story of J.L. And how his surprising response to that big time offer.

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, this was, this was at a point before Will Smith had made a lot of money. He wanted to be the biggest star in the world. His manager was, I know, I can't remember he's living out of his car. or just couch surfing. His mom's house. He had his mom's house. He hadn't made any money either.

And in comes this really big offer for Will Smith to get paid a whole bunch of money for, I think it was $15 million for to do this movie. Like eight heads in a duffel bag? He had in a duffel bag, which did get made. Yeah, not with Will Smith. Because what happened was J.L. came in and he said, it was $10 million actually. And J.L. came in and he said, you know, Tom Cruise wouldn't do it. this movie. The biggest stars in the world would not do this movie. And if you want to be the

biggest star in the world, I don't think you should take this $10 million. And, you know, Will Smith's like what and remember now J.L had no money. He was living at his mother's house. 15% of $10 million of $10 million. He would have made a million and a half bucks. And he said Tom Cruise wouldn't do it and you shouldn't do it. And Will didn't do it. And then eventually, uh, not too long later, Will Smith took a role in six degrees of separation, which was like a heavy drama. He made $300,000 for that instead of $10 million. And J.L. just knew that even though he was quote unquote selling his client, right, selling an idea is or leading and influencing is selling. He was selling him on less money, knowing that instead of making $1.5 million, he was going to make a few thousand bucks instead.

but he did it because he knew that that was what was best for his customer, his client, Will, and you know the rest. He eventually did become the biggest star in the world for a while. Playing the long game, right? He was truly playing the long game when everyone, nobody would have faulted him for saying, let's cash this check, man, and then figure out the next step. Let's just cash it because we got to get paid. And instead, he was able to delay gratification, which is a superpower.

and I think what great sales professionals are able to do because they see the longer play, the longer game than just taking the short hit. Yeah, we'll do you one better on that delayed gratification, though, because a lot of selling, just by its nature, is delayed gratification. You've got long sales cycles and you get told no, 70 or 80% of the time and all of that stuff. One of the things that we found with all of these great sellers with and without sales in their title is that they celebrate the process, we call it.

They celebrate wins and they celebrate losses. They learn, they train their minds to go, okay, you know, I lost this deal, but guess what? Here's what I learned from it. So I'm not going to make that I'm not going to get that same no again. And so by celebrating the process, they're not going for instant gratification. They're not going for delayed gratification. They actually make selling a game of prolonged gratification because they can find the wins in places where, you know, where most people are just waiting for the actual win, for the close or for the finish line. they're celebrating along the way and they're training themselves and their mindset to to look for

prolonged gratification. I love that element of loving the process. Viewing knows is not yet. Viewing a no as that's one step closer to a yes, knowing that like what did I learn from this process? How did I get better? You write a lot about Carol Dweck's work, who she's been on this podcast when you talk about mindset and having a growth mindset. And I think this is a big phrase that's out there. but the best sellers, it seems, they just live in that world, Colin Wright, of having this growth-oriented mindset. It's a super resilience is a superpower in itself. It's early on in your career, especially as a leader, you know, the game is almost like avoiding friction. That's that's a good thing.

You know, like avoid friction, vanity numbers, like wanting to look good. and feel good. But as you progress, and especially as you get wins and you can only get those wins by those losses, what you realize is I should be looking for where the friction is. I should live in the friction as a leader. How is anybody going to have a breakthrough if there's nothing to break through? And it's just like we talk about the difference between being valuable and adding value and how these great sellers are the greatest leaders on. on the planet are the greatest sellers on the planet. And adding value is their job.

But being valuable, like that's what makes them special because that means that they're making everybody around them better. And we have so many amazing stories in the book of just such valuable people that could have thought transactionally, but instead thought transformationally. As you were saying that, I was thinking about Roy Choi. Yeah.

Chef Roy Choi is an amazing, an amazing human being and he's he's a well known for his restaurants for his food truck uh he led the food truck revolution so you people don't remember but you know 20 years ago there were no food trucks on every corner like there are now in big cities um and he's the subject uh partly the movie chef is based on him and he was telling us about how about when he decided with a partner that they were going to start these food trucks and you know he had to do a a lot of different types of selling at that time. Like he had to sell customers on the fact that you don't have to go to a restaurant to have a

great dining experience. You can follow me on Twitter and then meet me at some parking lot and get a great dining experience. And he had to sell investors on the same thing. Like this is a viable business. You don't have to have a brick and mortar place to invest in. And I think most transformationally for the point of this conversation, he also was selling other chefs and saying, hey, you guys should start.

food trucks too. And, you know, he wasn't trying, he didn't want to be one guy that everybody was following. He realized that if he could convince other chefs to start their own food trucks as well, that that would lift everybody and that would transform the restaurant and the dining industry, which it did. Let's say somebody is works at like a SaaS company, right? There's sales force or something like that that everybody knows. And this CRM tool has become ubiquitous. There's lots of them. How could somebody who, and I work with some people who have jobs exactly like this, whether they're leaders or their sellers themselves, how can somebody like that that works inside this giant company that has a product that's definitely good, it's really good,

but there's plenty other ones out there that are close or similar? How could someone like that, who's not starting the food truck revolution, but has a job in that industry, how could they take this transformational approach versus a transactional one. It's a really a good segue into our favorite part of the book, which is the difference between goals and purpose.

So it's not easy to accomplish what you're saying, which is sort of your cog in the wheel. What separates you? How do you get up and do this special thing that only 20% of any organization can figure out?

And here's what we have found. These really exceptional sellers, they recognize that the best part of the movie is the chase. Right. Like they understand that. They get that when they accomplish a goal, it normally lasts for this long. And then they go, damn, I thought it was going to feel different. You know, like, what's next? Right.

Like, Garrett will talk to for hours about the hedonic treadmill. And I'll let them talk about how science he wants behind this. But the reality is that goals for every normal seller out there, regardless of what your title are, they're finish lines. But these great sellers have figured out a way to stay in the best part of the movie, to stay in the chase even while they're accomplishing their goals. And the way they do that is by creating a purpose. Because when you can create a purpose, your purpose is now the finish line. And then your goals are just mile markers. And like a purpose is elusive in the best way possible.

Because like you can get close to it. Like you can serve your purpose. You can live your purpose out. Right. And you can do all these things, but you can't catch it. So they've been really, they've been really intentional about showing up to work every single day and seeing their purpose and the people that they're selling. And so when you see your purpose, like when I, if I see my purpose in you, I don't want to just

add value, I want to be valuable because you are literally helping me serve my purpose. I guess serve as literal. I can't say that, but sorry, Garrett. You know what I mean, though? So when you say, like, when you ask the question, like, how do these people show up and be so exceptional when they're selling a commoditized product? That's the point. You're selling something that's commoditized.

So people are making a decision to buy based off of who they'd rather spend more time with. And when you have someone that doesn't view you as a goal, but views you as part of a larger purpose. You move differently. You treat them differently. You ask them different questions. You accidentally become enamored with them. You treat them as a human being. And then weirdly, they start treating you like a human being. That stereotype has broken. You're now on the same team. You're sending them the info about the San Francisco 49ers and you're not selling sports memorabilia. You're just doing it because you know that he's a fan. And like, you care. Not because you have to. When you see your purpose and other people and then they suddenly see their purpose.

It makes it really easy to be more transformational. You don't have to change an entire industry. You might just care so much that you end up doing something for them that, again, is transformational versus transactional. So you might be selling some kind of SaaS product, but you've now learned about your customer that they're passionate about X, Y, or Z, and you do something completely different for them. There's an example that we talk about in the chapter on creativity about this salesperson

who was working with, he was working with, like restaurant owners. Anybody out there listening sells products to like restaurants and small businesses. It is a competitive space. It's really hard to get their attention. They're constantly putting out fires. There's a lot of competition in most of the marketplaces. And so he started to just listen to his customers and he started to hear similar problems over and over again. And so what he ended up doing was creating this group where all of these restaurant owners and small business owners could come and he would bring them resources. He would hear them talking about payroll problems or he would hear them talking about, you know, rent going up and he would

bring speakers in, not because he was trying to sell them something, but because he cared enough to like want to transform their world and their business. And so he got really creative that way. And he had this group. And oh, by the way, he happened to be, you know, the go-to person who set this up and became a thought leader because he was connecting all of these people. But he really did it just to be transformational. You don't, you know, it sometimes requires some creativity, but it can be done. Yeah, this is going to sound weird, but it's really easy to be valuable and transformational if you're optimistic. Like if you think, naive or not, if you think the person that you're talking to is going to buy from you, then like you will treat them differently.

Well, you've been called a pathological optimist by your wife. Traveling with your kids and they're going bananas like would normally happen with young kids. And I think I sense you view it as like this is going to become a great story someday. Like what and your wife, God, dude, can you stop being such an optimist? I have a great relationship with my wife. She's in a profession where she gets to really dig into mindset stuff too. My wife and I can debate like if optimism is the healthiest thing for a human being. And I don't think that Garrett and I are saying that, you know,

being naive is like not at all having, you know, is not all representative of having a high sales IQ. But what we found is that when people are talking to other people and they don't come off acting like they need something from them, they have a real VOT. And the only way that you can be in a sales, if you're a series A customer or a series A company and you're out there like looking for, you know, investors. You need something. Like there's a hierarchy. If you're a salesperson and you're talking to a potential customer, you need something, right?

Like you want something from that. But when people believe differently, okay, and there's lots of reasons for it, not just being naive, if you believe that the person that you're buying or that you're talking to actually is going to buy because what you're selling is really good and you believe in it and you understand and their problems and you care differently, then you'll just start talking to them as if you have nothing to lose and you become a real one exponentially faster

than everyone else who's just trying to put on a show. And we know what it feels like to sit in front of a talent show, you know? My very first sales job, it was a smile and dial kind of monthly quota type job. And if you listened to my calls and measured me after I had exceeded my goal for the month versus before.

It's like a different, different person. You know, it's like, why am I selling so much more in the second half after I've hit my goal

than before? It just took so many more calls, so much more work to do it. It's because I was more relaxed. I didn't technically need, I wanted it, but I didn't technically need it. So it's just more relaxed

as a conversationalist and then more people. So you just like pile it on. It was a weird snowball effect. You were enjoying it. You're crazy. You're enjoying it. a sales conversation. What's wrong with you? Right. The best way to sell somebody something is to not

try to sell them something. It's the crazy paradox of selling. But the thing that's important to note, too, and that goes back to the schemer's schema, right? You were no longer coming across as that schemer. The thing that's important to note is that these great sellers, these great leaders, they're not doing this stuff as tactics. They're not thinking, oh, I'm going to do this and and it's going to ingratiate me towards this person. Like, they're doing it authentically because they care. And one of the things, when we talk about the 20% of the people who are going to consume this differently, you know, some people are going to go out and they're going, okay, I heard

Colin and Garrett, I'm going to go out there. I'm going to act authentic and I'm going to be good. No, don't act authentic. Be authentic. Yeah, I got you. I'm going to act authentic. I'm going to be good. No, don't act authentic.

You cannot, by definition, you cannot act authentic. And so all of the mindsets that we talk about are how do you get yourself into that frame of mind so that you can actually be authentic as opposed to having to act authentic, which is what you know, the slimy salespeople that we all have in the stereotype in our heads are actually doing. I know we're getting close on time, but I did want to ask you guys about what normally happens in a sales organization. It may be just because it happened to me, so this is projection a bit, but you're a top sales professional. You're at the top of the stack rankings. They post these things, at least where I worked all the time, almost daily in some cases, whether

there were metrics when it comes to activity or your actual sales or both. And then eventually a manager job comes open. And they say, all right, we post the job and everybody applies and they allow like the top three or four sales performers to then go to the interview process to become a manager. And then inevitably one of you gets it, which I did. And then you get the job and all of a sudden you go, wait a second. I was a top sales professional. And almost none of that has anything to do with being a manager.

How do you guys help people avoid the Peter Principle? How do you help people avoid this issue of getting promoted and not falling on your face for a year or two when you're in a new manager role? We call it selling. And once everyone realizes that the word sales is not yucky and when you're a manager and you're selling yourself and you're selling ideas and then that's okay. selling internally as a manager, as a leader, is a different skill set than selling externally. And so while we can train for that, right, we can also hire for that.

And one of our favorite hiring questions out the gate is, would you rather be the number one seller in the room or the highest paid seller in the room? And a lot of people won't notice the difference. but the ones that do, like the ones that are, the ones that are motivated by more than the money, like these are very indicative of the leadership skills that quite honestly, like you're trying to hire for because they're the hardest things to train. I guess it's hard to train for self-awareness and optimism and competitiveness and like inspiration. Like these are things, if you can hire people that have that, you can train them on all the

nuts and bolts of it. As a manager, if you, you, you can train them on all the nuts and bolts of it. as a manager, if you're not excited about the idea that if you're doing your job right, people beneath you will be making more money than you, you are not the one. I remember that taking a massive pay cut for a couple years because if you kill it as an individual contributor, your percent to plan is going to be so high that you hit escalators and you're going to make a ton of money, even if your base salary is a lot lower than the manager, you're going to, you're going to out earn them by quite a bit.

It's almost a cliche at this point to say that it's a different skill set to be a manager versus being a salesperson. But it's also not salespeople's fault. There are a lot of people who fall into that trap where they're like, okay, I'm going to be a manager now. And then they suck at being a manager. It's not their fault. Like most of the system, the sales, the career ladder is just built that way because there's not really any place to go for people who aren't, who don't realize, hey, I can just be an individual contributor for my entire career and be happy. There's not really any place to go other than manager. A lot of times, you know, you look at the best CEOs on the planet and they come from sales

backgrounds. And that's not really that surprising. It's important to have self-awareness of which type of person you are. You were talking about my wife. She, you know, she has an incredible sales career and she's been asked many times to go after certain management roles. And she's smart enough to know, like, I don't think I would enjoy that. I really like where I am and I like contributing here. And yeah, there's a path for me forward, but it's not that. It's a different one and I'm going to carve it out for myself. Another great example of these people with an unsold mindset in the book, right? They're not, they're not boxed in by what they're supposed to do or what they're expected to do. They realize they can figure it out. They can find a different

way that's going to work for them. We will advise clients all the time, create a culture where everyone knows that you won't get promoted from the top up. Like you will never, like, if the company knows you do not get promoted from getting pulled up. The only way you get promoted is by being pushed up. You can start to create like this competitive like culture based on camaraderie. Because it doesn't matter if I'm better than you. If I want to be a manager, the only way I'm going to get promoted if someone else tells you that I've helped them. When I'm having my one-on-one with the rookie, and I'm like, why are you hitting your numbers all of a sudden?

You were about to go on a PIP because Garrett has been like showing these impactful questions. Garrett's getting promoted because he got pushed up. Not because Garrett, you have been the number one person for the last four years. I'm going to pull you up. What got you here isn't going to get you there. But we can start to create the infrastructure and the incubation, you know, to get people to go up. I like that. A friend of mine who's a basketball coach, they name their team captains after the season.

and the players vote after the season. Who were the ones who were the actual leaders? Not before when we're still kind of uncertain and unsure. So you sometimes are the captain of a team and the season's over, but you were still the captain because it got voted of what you actually did. And I think that feels to me like somebody who's pushed up more than pulled up by a coach. I feel like that. Can I have one more for both you guys when it comes to your partner?

We got time. Okay, cool. I love reading acknowledgments. And Garrett, you wrote, Colin, thank you for, seeing something in a slightly insecure, overly analytical introvert in deciding to throw in with me. Very cool statement to say. And I think a creative project like this is really hard to do by yourself and probably even harder to do with somebody else because there's just more people, creates more potential mess. Maybe Garrett, you go first. Why did you guys decide to do this together? Probably both

are capable of writing it by yourself or writing a sales book by yourself, but you decided to do it together instead. First of all, my wish for you is that you get the audio book and listen to Colin try to read his acknowledgments because he's crying the entire time and I love it. I don't have the audio. I do need to get that. Everybody listening. You want the audio version of Colin crying while thanking his wife and kids.

I highly recommend it. Listen to it at 1.5. Just get it done. It's super emotional, dude. I remember the same thing. I think in teammates and your loved ones. It's hard. I'm with you, Colin.

Well, I'm glad you said emotion because that's really the answer to your question is like, Colin makes me better and fills in gaps that I have that I sometimes don't even know I have. And so we talk a lot about the fact that selling any sale is some combination of logic and emotion. And I'm definitely more logical. And Colin is definitely more emotional. And we, even when we're on stage or when we're in front of our classroom, we come at problems from very different angles. And people love to see us debate and argue. But what always ends up happening at the end is that we arrive at the same destination. And so just by us being who we are and having those conversations, we get to show people that there's not just one right way to do things,

that there's not a specific path to success, that you can be logical, that you can be introverted, or you can be emotional and extroverted and cry when you read your acknowledgments on the audiobook. And you can still get to the same conclusion. And so, you know, we have, we feel, I feel really lucky that I get to write with this guy, teach with this guy, travel around, speaking to audiences with this guy. It makes everything so much more fun than if I wouldn't, I wouldn't like it if I had to do it by myself. We represent duality on multiple levels. But I also think that we represent that there's not just like one way to do something. Like most people will read the book or listen to us and they'll go, Garrett's logical and Collins emotional. But if you watch us

debate, we will vacillate between Garrett being emotional and Colin being logical. And so that, that really is representative of what the, like what the Colin and Garrett, like what we represent, like these bookends. Like you can be an optimist and a realist, aka pessimist sometimes, but not a lot of the times. You can be, you know, a logical and emotional, you know, an introvert and extrovert, you know, of diversity of thoughts, of race, of culture. You cannot be alike and see yourself in each other so much.

And we took four years to write this book because we thought we needed every piece of it to represent both of us, which meant coming from opposite sides to meet exactly in the middle, which is not easy. And we hope, I mean, that's our wish for anybody that reads this book is that because we're so far apart, that they will see themselves in one of us, or worst case scenario in the middle. The book, it's got a great cover too, but the insights even better. The unsold mindset, right? The world's greatest sellers are the opposite of who you think they are, redefining what it means to sell.

I just highly, I think you guys did an amazing job. Also, it's, that's backed in facts too because a lot of people are buying it. Hit multiple lists, which is awesome, bestseller lists. And I'm pretty sure if you guys wrote, I think the profession of selling is noble and one we should all be studying more and should be focusing on and talking about. And even if, like I said, you don't carry a bag or have a quota, you're selling. We're all in sales every day. So it's worth it for us to get better at a very important skill.

So thank you guys for doing this. And I certainly would love, I got to actually gig next month in L.A. I would love to maybe even connect in person, but continue our dialogue as we both progress. Because I think there's a lot more that we can do to try to keep improving. How do you end up coming to class? Oh, I would love that. That would be cool. You hang out to a little guest lecture spot.

Oh, I would love to sit in and just see what it's like. Like, what's an average class like with you guys? Like, it's probably different. You dress differently than most professors. You're more loose, right? I'm reading about this. So what's it like? It's, it is our favorite two hours of the week.

There's a very intentional reason that we have class on Mondays because we get to look forward to our Monday. And, you know, we get every semester, we get six. of the best and brightest at USC and we get to feed off their energy and we get to have fun and Colin just referenced Jimmy Kimmel because our goal our vision for this class okay my vision for this class because he likes to make fun of me has always been like like there's this there's the rumor that Jimmy Kimmel show in L.A. People just go and they hang out backstage and they and it's like a place to be when he's filming and I always I always wanted our class and it's

it's sort of become that to be a place where alumni come back to the class and guests who are doing amazing things come and entrepreneurs from the community come in and just sit in and feed off each other's energy and learn from each other. And we created the class that we wish we would have had when we were 20 years old. And so, you know, we half joke that we duped USC into letting us teach a life class just by calling it a sales class. But we get to talk about all this great stuff that we've sort of started to touch on purpose and abundance and optimism and all of our favorite subjects. So if you can't tell, we love the two hours that we're at SC every week. I want to call that out. Your first question was such an important one about abundance versus scarcity and the couch. Right. And our students hear that

every semester. They hear that. And that is in the context of like looking for opportunities to sell people, right? But it doesn't matter. If that's the first time that they've ever heard abundance versus scarcity. We joke it's a life class because even though the context is about business and sales, they left that class on Monday for the first time, most of them hearing about the concept of living through abundance or scarcity. And that will translate through so many different parts of their life. And like we know it's an honor and a privilege to be able to be the first people. Because you know, we're not reading personal development books in college. We don't figure that out until like, you know,

until way later on, a lot of times that's just what happens. They, they come through a professional development entry point and they exit through something that's a lot more personal, but they're the same concepts. Well, thanks again, guys. This is so much fun. Be cool to do it again, too. Yes, sir. Say when. It's really fun to talk to two people who you can tell have deep admiration and respect for one another. And they get to spend their careers together, teaching, writing books, doing podcast. I really enjoyed that conversation with

Colin and Garrett. I hope you did as well. If you takeaways from my notes, an abundance mindset, the story of Matt looking at the couch cushions to see who made it in realizing, oh, that company, they're a prospect. And I think the most impactful leaders and professional sellers, which we all are, by the way, regardless if you carry a bag or have a quota, they have an abundance mindset. They see opportunity everywhere. I think that's a great quality for all of us to develop, a great skill for us to develop. And then celebrating the process, the most impactful sales leaders genuinely enjoy the process. They don't need instant gratification. They have, and I love this term, prolonged gratification because they love the process. And then create a culture in your business

that isn't about pulling people up, it's focused on pushing people up. How do you get promoted by being known as the person who is helping others? That's a culture of pushing people up. That's what great leaders do. That's what I think we should aspire to want to do. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two. Hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leaders Show with Colin Garrett.

it, I think they'll help you become more effective leaders. And because you continue to do that and you continue to write reviews by going to Ryanhawk.net, which launches you into Apple Podcasts, and you write your review and rate the show, hopefully five stars, you continue to give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talking soon, can't wait.