The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 520: Dan Lyons - The Power of Shutting Up, Earning Attention, & Becoming a Better Listener

Episode Date: April 2, 2023

Text Hawk to 66866 to become part of "Mindful Monday." Join 10's of thousands of your fellow learning leaders and receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right... Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12   https://twitter.com/RyanHawk12 Dan Lyons is the New York Times bestselling author of "Disrupted," "Lab Rats," and "STFU: The Power of Keeping Your Mouth Shut in an Endlessly Noisy World." Dan was a writer for HBO's hit comedy, "Silicon Valley," and before that was a journalist at Newsweek, Forbes, and Fortune. The best sales reps spend 54 percent of the call listening and 46 percent talking. The worst reps talked 72 percent of the time. They made calls feel like conversations.  A company called Gong uses machine learning software that analyzes sales calls to find out what works and what doesn't. Its software vacuums up millions of hours of audio data and then analyzes it to figure out how the best sales reps operate. Gong's customers use this information to train new sales reps and help underperformers improve. In 2017 Gong analyzed more than five hundred thousand calls and found that sales calls with the best close rates were ones in which reps knew how to be quiet and ask questions instead of making a sales pitch. To be precise, the most successful reps asked eleven to fourteen questions. Fewer than that, and you're not digging deep enough. More than that, the call starts to feel like an interrogation. Eavesdropping on happiness: The research showed that people who spent more time having substantive conversations were happier than those who spent more time having small talk, and weather conversations. Always Say Less Than Necessary – "When you are trying to impress people with words, the more you say, the more common you appear, and the less in control. Even if you are saying something banal, it will seem original if you make it vague, open-ended, and sphinxlike. Powerful people impress and intimidate by saying less. The more you say, the more likely you are to say something foolish." -- Robert Greene Researcher, Mehl joined a team that made a third big discovery: that people who suffer from anxiety and depression use the first-person singular pronouns I, me, and my more than other people. Go OUTSIDE – Harvard biologist Edward O. Wilson, who hypothesized that our affinity for the outdoors and love of living things have been hardwired into our DNA by evolution and exist as innate parts of our psychological and physiological makeup. Wilson calls this "biophilia," a name derived from the ancient Greek words for "life" and "love." It's the reason people watch birds, melt at the sight of baby bunnies, travel to Yellowstone National Park to marvel at the bison, and rush to the window when a deer wanders into their yard. It's why walking through Muir Woods among giant thousand-year-old redwood trees takes your breath away. The Talkaholic Scale Test – Prior to writing the book, Dan scored a 50 (the highest possible score)… Meaning he is a talkaholic. AFTER writing the book, he scored a 40, and Dan's wife scored him at 38. Life/Career Advice: Earn attention by doing great work, not by being loud and outlandish. It's more lasting and will help you build better relationships and a great career.

Quick announcement before we get to this episode, we are hosting our 2023 growth summit, May 3rd through May 5th in Columbus, Ohio. It's one of my favorite things I get to do each year is bring together a small group of intellectually curious and interesting people who are open to rethinking their ideas, to being pushed, to being challenged, to having a growth-oriented outlook on life in order to be better. And this year, I am doing my best to stack the room with amazing people, those who you'd want to know for life, hopefully. And I will do my best to design the experience in a similar fashion to what I talked about recently with Dr. Matt Durdon on last week's episode so that you walk away feeling like you're in a much better position to lead both yourself as well as lead others. So if you'd like to be in that room, send me an email Ryan at learning leader.com.

Put the words growth summit in the subject line and then tell me in the email why you'd like to be there. So Ryan at learning leader.com in the subject line, write growth summit and then share why you'd like to be in that room. All right, here we go. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text. Hawk to 666866 to become part of Mindful Monday.

You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right. You'll also receive details about how my book, The Pursuit of Excellence, will help you become a more effective leader. Text, Hawk to 66866. Now on tonight's featured leader, Dan Lyons, is the new, York Times, bestselling author of Disrupted Lab Rats and most recently, STFU, the power of keeping your mouth shut in an endlessly noisy world. Dan was a writer for HBO's hit comedy,

Silicon Valley, and before that was a journalist at Newsweek Forbes and Fortune. During this conversation we discuss, the research behind what types of conversations make you happier and more fulfill. Then how to become a better listener, how to become a better negotiator, and Dan shares how his most recent work has made him a much better husband, which is most important. Ladies and gentlemen, so good with Dan Lyons. Dan, I've been a fan for years, as I told you prior to recording, so it's great to finally have you here on The Learning Leaders Show. Welcome. Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. It's nice to meet you, too. You wrote a book about, being quiet and shutting up and it reminded me of when I had Robert Green on this podcast

law number four of the 48 laws of power is always say less than necessary and I gather based on reading your book that you wrote this maybe for yourself because you struggle with this can you share more about your background on being a talkaholic and potentially getting yourself in trouble because you talk too much sure and and you know Robert green's book was an influence on me early on because when I started sort of developing this hypothesis that talking less would be to my advantage someone pointed me at his book and I thought wow there really is something to this

because I originally as you said I started started out hoping to avoid calamities and and then as I dug more I realized oh in addition to avoiding calamities you can actually gain advantages. So that was kind of a tipping point for me. And yeah, I knew for a couple years, I think that talking was a problem for me, that I had caused problems for myself. One of the biggest is a story that I told two books ago

in a book called Disrupted about a startup situation that didn't go very well. And in retrospect, a few years later, I kind of thought, well, I wish that had gone well, and maybe it would have if I had done a better job of just keeping my thoughts to myself at certain points. As I said out, I wondered, you know, I really have a talking problem. Is there such a thing as a talkaholic? And I just Googled this, that term randomly, and found research done in the 90s that defined a condition called talkaholism.

And the researchers who did it estimated about 5% of the population quality. as talkaholics. And there's an actual assessment, a quiz. You took and subsequently I did and had my wife as well, judge me just like you had your wife judge you. And can you share your score and how you felt about your score and what you then did to try to make it better? Sure. I mean, the test is self-scored. It's in the book. It's right at the beginning of the book. It's 16 questions. You score from one to five and add it up and do a little math. And you calculate a score that ends up being between 10 points and 50 points, 50 being the most talkative you can be.

And I pegged it to a 50. And I'm going to guess on you, and you tell me if I'm right, that you were between a 10 and a 20. How did you guess? Is that right? You're right. Both my wife and mine,

my wife doing it for me. Right. How did you guess? I can kind of guess by your affect, even now, just a few minutes in talking, but also based on what you do, because people think that podcasters or radio personalities or talk show hosts must be talkers. Of course, they're great talkers, but really, to be really good at what you do, you need to be a great listener.

And I would imagine that you're very, very good at listening. you can have a conversation because you really listen to what the person is saying and you flow from that and you can listen yeah so and listening is a big part of my book too but but yeah i i have found that podcasters um well it's probably not all but like ones like you who do thoughtful shows are usually really good listeners and what you'd call a low talker interesting well i appreciate that especially coming from you, I take that as a huge compliment. The one thing I picked up when you said, I'm a 50, meaning like, that's the, you're a talkaholic,

or at least you were. We'll get to what happened over the course of writing this book. But I think that takes a massive level of self-awareness on your part to take the assessment honestly, admit it to yourself, and say, this is a problem, or I need to work on this. The thing I find, Dan, and I imagine you would, through all your research is that that level of self-awareness is not common among talkaholics. A lot of people who talk too much, I think, know that they talk too much. Not all. Then there are some

who are completely unself-aware about it. And those people think they're gregarious or extroverted or they just like people. They're interested in people, all of which can be true. But I do think some people who have a problem with talking know it. I've already received email from people saying, oh, I need this book. I have this problem. I've met people who told me, oh, yeah, I talk too much. I know I talk too much. I really got to work on that.

Writers, like, published authors, we want to write books that are giftable, right? You want to write a book that you could hand to somebody and help. This is not one of those books, man. I feel like if somebody gave it as a gift, they might be a little nervous because then you're essentially telling somebody, hey, you need to shut up. And that can be hard. Have you heard back for people when it comes to gifting this? I don't know. And now you just wrecked it for me.

I was thinking until now. I'm not trying to wreck with you. But you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I thought, oh, this would be a great gift. You give this to people who talk to them. Or actually, they're running a promotion where you can go to the publisher and, I don't know, fill out some sweepstake stuff. And if you win, the prize is some swag, but also you get the chance to send one copy of the book anonymously with someone with a card that says, you know, someone thinks you need this.

But I don't know, I've had a couple of who say, oh, I bought four copies to, you know, give out to my friends. but I guess it's I haven't thought of this yeah but I'm envisioning like so for example my first book's all welcome to management and I want I want a newly promoted person to be handed the book as a gift

right like I was actually envisioning that as I was writing it as I was reading this I thought first of all it's so good man it is such a it is such a well written entertaining and formative and has practical application you hit all three boxes

which you got to hit on a book I think And you do, not surprising, like I said, I read Disrupted years ago, loved it. This is different, but it's still, I can hear your voice. So it's an awesome book, but I'm having fun with you a little bit because if you gave it to somebody, they might take offense. Like, wait, you're telling me, I got to shut up. You know what I'm saying? So that's the part that could be interesting about it. I would hope.

Good. And I should, there's no way to advertise it this way. First of all, that idea of yours is like brilliant. Yeah, someone gets a promotion. They're a manager for the first time. They have no idea how to do it. And someone says, hey, you know, here's something you should read. I remember the first time I ever had a job where I had to manage people and it was tiny, small number of people.

And I didn't do very well at it. But I wish there had been a book like that. Yeah. You know, I wish I would have just said, read this or even give me a few books. But give me some ideas on what I'm doing, you know. I guess it would be nice if someone said, okay, you just became a manager. So you're going to be managing people. You think you're going to have to be the smartest guy in the room.

Then you're going to have to talk all the time and you're going to have the slide decks and you're going to have these group meetings where you show everybody in your group. Don't worry, I really am smart. I deserve to be the boss. I deserve to be the manager. And so you're going to talk too much. And here's a book that tells you, in fact, now that you're a manager, you maybe talked your way into being a manager.

You're always the one who had the answer, is you were smart, and you know, and you are, and you know what's going on. That's why you got promoted. Now you need to kind of flip that around. Now you need to be a good listener, because that's how you, well, not entirely, but that's part of how you really manage people well is listening.

So I would hope maybe there's a way someone says to them, It's not unless because here's the thing. The book isn't just for people who talk too much. It began that way and that was my situation. What I found very quickly, very early on, early on is it doesn't matter who you are unless you're super, super apprehensive, right? But that you can train yourself to talk less and do better. So it's like Robert Green's idea that powerful people say less than necessary. So if, ergo, if you want to become more powerful, you know, talk less than necessary.

But I have a section in the book about management and about work and about leadership. And it is all about sort of the listening leader. I didn't know this existed, but there is an EAR device that was used for a few things. And I'll ask about a couple of them. One of them is this report called eavesdropping on happiness, where this researcher and his team found that people who spent more time having good conversations and less time making small talk were happier than everyone else. And so this is not about shutting up. This is about quality people and quality conversations, less talk about the weather or whatever. Can you share more about the research you found here?

and why for all of us as leaders, we would benefit by surrounding ourselves with people that we can have deep, meaningful conversations with more so than the typical, you know, oh, look, the weather's clearing up for us. Guys looking good, you know, that type of thing. Yeah, yeah. A lot of people seem to just roll over that information, but that guy, I think, was the most interesting researcher

that I met when I did the book. In fact, I still am in touch with him because he's still doing amazing research. His name is Matthias Mel. He's at University of Arizona. Yeah, and he used this ear device, which is just a recorder with a timer. You carry it with you for a few days, and you don't know when it's turning itself on and off, but it's at random intervals recording what you're saying. And then you can do all sorts of stuff with that data, with that information.

So Matias Mel recorded people and then then tried to do a correlation with their own self-scored happiness. How happy are you essentially? Yeah, and he found that people who had spent more of their time having substantive conversations and good conversations and less time on small talk correlated with greater happiness and then a later study with a better immune system. So his idea is that he thinks speaks. is eventually we're going to see it as medicine. We're going to see a, as a diagnostic tool to see what's going on with your inner states

based on how you talk, but then also a way to change your speech to improve your happiness and your health. And at first I said, because I was getting to know pretty well, it's like, Matias, this blows up my thesis, right? Because I'm saying you should talk less. And he said something interesting is to know because substantive conversations, sort of like the one you and I are having now or the one that he and I were having

and said those are actually not just about Gabby Gabby Gabby Gabby, you know, it's actually about listening and about asking good questions and possibly almost likely talking less than you might ordinarily talk and the one line he gave to define a good conversation is the difference between these two

questions. One is, hey, how are you doing? And the other one is, hey, how are you doing? You don't know, really, how are you doing? And that really stuck with me. Those are the kind of conversations you want to have with your colleagues. And it may not be telling me all about your deep personal, private problems, but just, you know, really, how's it going at work? You know, How are things? And the other thing is a trick from Tim Cook is that if you then stop, ask that question and stop, let people talk. Their first response is to tell you everything they think you want to hear.

But if you get them to keep talking, you really will get them to tell you what's really going on. And that's information you really need as a leader. I read that you wrote about him that he was not afraid of uncomfortably long pauses and that sometimes just giving space gets people to keep going. You don't rush in to, oh, yeah, cut people off and start your next question. People will often say the more interesting stuff. You know, they maybe have a prepared, let's say it's a job interview. That's the story I tell.

You know, the first answer you're going to give is the one that you've prepared, right? you know, you figure you're going to be asked this. Why do you want this job? Okay. And someone, you know, gives you the answer that they have memorized in their head. And then you go, okay, so on to second question two, you've missed the opportunity then on question one to let them get through their recorded stuff, they memorize stuff, and then still wait. And you have to be having attention. You can't be like looking at your phone or, you know, still wait.

and chances are they'll keep talking. And then maybe they're going to tell you really why they want the job or what their hopes are, the goals of their ambitions. One of the other fascinating parts about this scientist's research, is it may, how do you pronounce, M-E-H-L, how do you pronounce it? Mel. He's German. So he told me like in Germany it would be different,

but here, just call me Mel. This is that people who suffer from anxiety and depression, Use the first person singular pronouns I and me and my more than other people who are not, don't suffer from as much anxiety or depression. That blew my mind. Can you go deeper there? So this guy, Pennebaker at UT Austin was huge on pronouns. And he figured out that you can deduce like a huge amount of stuff about people and about their personality and their character. based on the pronouns they use.

He wrote a whole book about it, just about pronouns. It's like amazing stuff. Like, do you want to predict which person will be a good president? Look at their pronouns. That kind of stuff. So then they honed in on just the first person singular, and you would think that the person who's saying, I did this, I did this, my this, blah, blah,

is narcissistic, right, and egotistical. But what they found is that, in fact, it correlates with, yeah, greater anxiety and depression. The same deal. You look at who uses those pronouns the most, and then you correlate it to a self-scored happiness thing. Then, Matthias was saying it kind of makes sense. Because, like, think about the last time,

like you went through a breakup. Someone broke up with you, and you become, like, why is this happening to me? What did I do wrong? Why are they not like me? It becomes, you're focusing on yourself a lot. But then the question is, and like, this is really amazing. Can you change the pronouns you use to make yourself less anxious and depressed?

And the sort of the jury's still out on that, but they've tried it. Penny Baker came up with this idea called pronoun therapy. And other people have run with this too. It's very far from being able to say, just don't use the first person singular so much. and you'll feel better. It's not that, but it's maybe more of a diagnostic tool. Yeah. Well, I think some of it makes sense because narcissists are deeply insecure,

and I think deep insecurity could lead to some of those other troubling things. So in a way, it does make sense. Totally. I think I've thought that too. I've worked with a couple of people who are just, you think of them, oh, they have a huge ego. What an egomaniac. And then if they got to know them more, I thought like, oh, no, they really hate themselves.

This guy's really an unhappy person. So I told you before we started recording that my background before I've started doing this for a living was in sales. In corporate America, 12 years, smile and dial, that type of thing. A really tough job, but super rewarding. And I initially was terrible at it. And through having amazing managers and mentors, you know, got better. But this is the stat that you cite that blew my mind. So whenever somebody thinks of sales, especially if you haven't worked in sales, you usually think of a negative interaction.

You're buying a car or something that went bad. Yeah. However, I think if you study the profession and you worked in it and you did well, you will learn that it's not about the pitch or about talking. And in fact, your research backs this up. The best, I'm citing your book now, the best reps made calls feel like, kind of. conversation spending 54% of the time listening and 40% talking. And in fact, they found the worst reps, the ones who performed lowest on the stack rankings, which is usually how sales works. They spoke 72% of the time. So the ones who spoke the most in the sales organization

were the worst. Again, go deeper on this research and what you learn when it comes to the profession of selling and why listening is so critical. You mentioned up front that you got very good at sales. You're a listener, right? Which I don't think, and I think those two were related. So a company called Gong, which does machine learning, and they apply machine learning just to the study of optimizing sales performance. They took, I think it's 500,000 hours of sales calls, ran it through a machine learning

thing and analyzed the language. And that's how they found those numbers, that people who, the sales reps who talked less, listened more, performed better. There's this art of conversation that sort of ties back to Matthias Mel's whole theory. It's like, yeah, your sales calls a conversation. And what you're trying to figure out is what that person needs, right? And then how you can solve it, which you're not really selling them. the product. I mean, there's a whole idea of inside out versus outside in, even in, like,

same in product design, right? If you're using the lean methodology, you don't spend a year building this thing and then go out and try to find customers. You start with the customer and you work backwards. So I think as a salesperson, it's like, I'm listening to you, I hear what you need. Now I have X, Y, and Z that maybe can help you. So it's a different kind of so. But I'd like to know, does that jive with your experience as a salesperson? The most important part of the, I'll cite this stats too, because I have your book here, but the most important, in my opinion, part of the sales process, right? We're very process-oriented.

My dad wrote a book on sales. He was a sales leader for many years, so I was brought up with this, is the discovery phase, meaning that's when you're learning, that's when you're asking questions, that's when you're listening, that's when you're taking. I still take similar notes to when I was in my sales process when I do these interviews, as you see me writing down the whole time, because it just kind of has. how I've developed my process for learning because I want to learn from these in the moment and even follow up when I type out the show notes.

But your stats, 2017, Gong analyzed more than 500,000 calls, as you said, to be precise, the most successful reps asked 11 to 14 questions. Fewer than that, you're not digging deep enough. More than that, it starts to feel like an interrogation. And as I said before, Gong's machine learning also deduced that calls work. best when the questions are scattered throughout and when a rep identifies three to four specific problems no more no fewer than the cut that that the customer needs to solve so again it's not an interrogation it's not an interview it's a conversation much like you and i are having right now this is

i'm asking more questions because it's a podcast but still it's more conversational in tone i also have found that's more pleasant to listen to and then there's a lot of salespeople listen this because i get emails from tons of them and maybe it's because it's my background but It's not about the pitch and memorizing the perfect PowerPoint presentation. It's about being like a decent person and asking questions and listening and then trying to solve the problem, right? Because the discovery phase, what you're doing is creating the current state of your prospect and identifying a desired state. And then you're trying to create a big gap through your questions. And if there isn't a big gap, then you shouldn't sell them anything.

But if there is, if your discovery phase creates a huge gap, well, then you do have something to provide that will help close that gap. That's what sales is to me. And not everyone is a fit for the product. That's why you have to discover, right? You have to discover that through asking questions and listening. And then you may find the ideal prospect, boom. And again, as my dad told me, hey, man, don't listen to the people who talk about being a hard closer. A close should not be an exclamation point.

A close should be the period at the end of a very long sentence because you've done deep discovery. So that's, sorry for my tangent on sales, but I'm pretty passionate about it because it's done wrong so much and people get a bad taste in their mouth. And then I read your book and your research behind it. And I'm like, oh, this is perfect. Like it marries it up so well. I love that line of your dad's. Yeah. It's not an exclamation.

point. It's a period. It's almost like we've gone through this process, this journey of discovery, and now we're like, oh. It's just the next thing. It's just the next thing. And now there's going to be a next sentence, which is, I'm going to provide you with the product. And I'm going to listen to how you're using it and how it's not a big moment. Right. It's not a big moment. It's just the next thing, right? Yeah. Oh, I get it. Like, yeah, we're not done and I'm never going to see you again. Yeah. Bam, bam, bye, right? It's, ah, yeah, yeah. But I've had that experience, myself you know what it it makes sense to me like I hate buying cars like I dread it I dread it because I know or I feel like every time I buy a car as soon as I sign the paperwork and I work

out there just laughing at me behind my back there sitting they go and look at that idiot oh my God and and that is a place where the sales approach is often kind of adversarial or confrontational But there was one time I bought a car and he was young and just married and my wife and I had had a sports car and I sold the sports car we were going to buy a Subaru wagon like an outback or like something like that

and it was when Subaru's dealers were like tractor equipment like they were in Cinderblock they weren't fancy and a friend of mine said oh talk to this guy here's an older guy and I said look I think we just want like a used outback, maybe like a year or two old, this came back. And he was like, okay, yeah, I got a couple of, they said, look, you know, we got a couple of, you know, this year's model that are leftovers because the next year, the New Year's out. I got two of them. You know,

I can give you one for probably the same price you'll pay for the used one, maybe a little less, but it was like brand new. And I think, you know, I think it'd be good for you guys. And so we drove it and like, and there's not that much profit in those days. as a pretty inexpensive car. So we weren't, you know what I mean? Like, you knew the deal was about the deal, but I just thought the guy listened to us and said, okay, young couple, probably going to have some kids.

Why don't you get this car? You'll have this for like 10 years. It's going to be really good for you. And it was no pressure. You know what I mean? Like just, and I thought like, wow, that was such a great transaction. I just felt so good afterwards.

And part of that process at times that you write about And I think this is a word that when you hear it, everybody wants to be better at it. And that is negotiation, right? We're negotiating a lot. It happens in your personal life and your professional life. How can shutting your mouth make you a better negotiator? Well, part of it is Robert Green's thing, right? Just talking less in a negotiation usually rebounds to your favor.

So there's lots of anecdotes about in diplomatic negotiations, two countries and they have a bunch of people at the table. One side will really just stop talking and make the other side, try to make the other side uncomfortable. So they start talking, trying to fill in the empty air and maybe negotiating against themselves. And in that area, I find a couple of really interesting people like a negotiation coach in London, but one who lives in Boston, where I am, ended up meeting her and having dinner with her and actually getting not just advice for the book, but some advice I used in my own life,

and it really worked. It was like, anyway, her name is Katie Donovan, and her consultancy is about helping mostly women negotiate salary because she's looking at all the statistics about women being underpaid. That was her whole thing. And her whole thing was like, she said my main job,

the biggest thing I teach people is how to shut up. Just shut up. Say, this is what I want. And it doesn't have to be adversarial. You're not going to get into a thing. Well, I'm worth this and blah, blah, blah, blah. Just quiet and get what you want. And, yeah, it also made sense to me.

So, yeah, when you're negotiating, isn't there a thing in sales that says, whoever speaks first loses? Is there some sort of rule like that? There is a thing. I don't know if that's true. I don't know either. There is a thing. I think, yeah, there's a lot said about negotiation. What does that sound like, though, in practice? I mean, because to me, if I hear that, like, what do you mean, Katie? I just don't say that much. I don't know how that would work. What do you mean, whether it's, I mean, salary negotiation is the obvious kind of proxy example we all use, but there are plenty of other negotiations. What is a way to be better other than saying, hey, just don't talk as much, which is harder. It's easy in theory to say that much harder in practice. Yeah.

What are some specifics around that? So one story she tells is really good is early in her career. She was up for a job. And she had, but she had several different employers that she was interviewing with. One of them got her in on a Friday afternoon and the guy says, okay, here's a job, here's a salary. And he didn't answer by the end of the day today or this offer is no good. And she knew it's too low.

And not because, not. because, you know, I know what I'm worthable. She knew what the job was worth. She knew what the job paid, right? And she knew the first offer is going to be low. And so she said to the guy, well, that's interesting. Okay, I have other interviews next week. So I'll think about it and I'll get back to you next week.

Now, here's the key moment. Then she stops. She doesn't get up. She doesn't go because, well, she says, I'll think about it. And I'll get back to you next week. And then sits. and since. And until the guy gets uncomfortable,

and she knows he has more money, right? So he does the act of, I'm going to leave, I've got to go talk to my manager and see what we can do, and I'll come back, you know. So he does. He comes back, and he says, okay, well, we can pay you this. It's a little more. But I need an answer today.

This offer is no good, you know. And she said, well, okay, well, that's a good offer. I will, I'll think about it and now I'll, over the weekend, I'll get back to you next week. And again, sit and just doesn't, you know, just sit. And he finally gets up, comes back. I think they did this two or three times. And then she ended up with a 30% bump from what was the original offer. And she took the job.

But her whole strategy, she told me, and it's very, very simple, just hard to do. The concept is simple, right? It's hard to execute. But just to say very little, that that's a little disappointing. I was expecting better. But I'll think about it. But she says the mistake people will make is go, well, it's kind of low, but, well, yeah, but it's close to home or this growth opportunity.

They'll start giving themselves all the reasons that the other person would give them why they should take less money, right? Hard to do. Easier if you create some leverage for yourself, maybe there's multiple offers or multiple opportunities. But certainly if you can implement, I think that could be pretty powerful of a way. Side note, though, I would feel a little weird going to work for somebody who has to leave the room and go talk to their manager to get more money. I don't think I particularly like the thought of that, but that's beside the point. I think it is. I think that's all, don't you think? Like when you're taking a job, your size. them up too.

Oh, yes. I mean, especially the type of people that listen to this show, they usually are the ones who are ambitious, growth-oriented people who do create plenty of leverage and there's a lot of demand for their services in the marketplace. So they do create multiple offers or opportunities. And I think a critical part that in the interview process is, I know for me, I wanted it to be at 50-50, meaning I'm going to be asking just as many questions. them throughout that process. I need to learn about them and who they are and the company and the

leadership. The money's separate thing that we're going to talk about later because first and foremost, I need to decide, do I want to work with these people? And I can't do that just waiting to the end asking questions. I'll tell you though, and this is anecdotal research I did, Dan, but when I thought about, I tried to really detail and take good notes when I interviewed people to work on my sales teams. and then follow up a year or two years from them and look at my notes and then compare that to their performance so I could basically get a crystal clear view on who the best are. Who are the people who, so I could get better at the interview process because it's so hard to interview and make good decisions, right? And the thing that came up the most of all of that, at least in where I was, in my industry,

were the people who asked me questions throughout the interview process and, didn't just wait till the end. It showed confidence. It showed curiosity. It showed some guts. The meek kind of non-aggressive or fearful way is to just sit there and answer questions. And then I'm like, I have to go to the end. Do you have any questions for me? And then they flip open their notebook and they read prepared questions. Those people who did that typically struggled where I was versus the ones who it was a conversation. They were asking me questions throughout. So I kind of took that same approach. And that's an interesting thing as well because they were curious. They wanted to know. Do you know why? Because they had options, right?

They were in demand. So they were interviewing me almost as much as I was interviewing them. Well, I also think that what that would convey to me is, yeah, they want to know because they're sizing you up against others. So they're interviewing you, right? But also, I feel like they're doing what a good salesperson does is they going, what do you need? And can I fill that? Exactly. Right? I was telling my kids, my kids, I have twins. I just applied to college this fall. And it goes like, it's mostly done on paper, but there are essays and stuff. And I kept saying, you know, even if it's a big university, but a smaller place, especially like, okay, they've got a college, right? And they've got 2,000 kids or 10,000 kids. And they know they want it to be a certain way, right? They want to have a lot of

people from around the world. They want to have kids from this and that. But they also want people who are going to join things, who are going to do things on campus, or aren't just going to sit in their room and do homework, right? So you've got to figure out, think of it instead of, it's not about me. Like, I'm a product. I'm going to sell you. It's like, hey, here's what, here's what, what I think I could do for you. Here's why I'd be good. So what do you need or try to figure out what do they need and then try to solve that problem? And because it's hard. It's not, that's not a one-on-one exchange, although sometimes you are doing an interview for college. And I think, yeah, if, and if, if you're just in there, you answer a bunch of questions and at the end, they say, what are yours

and you ask the two ones. It's almost like you haven't given enough thought to why you really want to go there. Yep. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It should be a two-way street. And I think that's a big, there's this whole phrase of show don't tell.

I mean, you probably know this from your world. Well, that person then by being curious and asking those questions, they're actually showing me. Instead of telling me how good of a sales rep they are or telling me how good of a candidate for this school they are, they're showing me. They're doing it in real time. And that's another big marker, I think, of someone. who's going to do well is that you're able to learn that quicker than someone who maybe has a good resume but you're not like it's not you're not seeing it in that world you're actually like seeing it happen yeah that's really interesting yeah in the college applications they actually

call it demonstrated interest you know they want to see they'll track how many times did you come to our website did you what did you look at on the website they can you know obviously They give you a cookie and they can do that. Yeah, they want to see it. Did you visit the campus? Did you set up a call with the student? Did you do this? Interesting.

Yeah, and my daughter was very successful in her college application. I'm telling you what, she was a monster at that, and we didn't tell her how to do it, and we didn't really say anything. We didn't put any pressure on them. And I watched her in action. Like, go to the school fair at your high school. go to the school fair, she studies at a music conservatory, called the school, did an alumni interview, did something here, researched. She knew everybody in this department, who they were,

what they taught, reached out to one of them, asked her about his career, and I just watched her, like, in awe, really in awe. And afterwards, I told her, even while she was doing it, I said, you know what? And there were extra essays, and there was an audition. She had to do all this stuff. It was a lot of work. And I said to her even before, she did get in, but I asked her, I said to her beforehand, you know, even if you don't get in, like what you've learned doing this is so huge. And I haven't told them how I said it. And then you did get in. I said, you know what, but the skill you have that's more important than, you know, what your grades were or, you know, whatever, it's that you knew how to get there, that you figured out. She said to me,

dad, the woman who runs this one little tiny thing that I'm applying for, the very narrow field is a woman and most people in this field are men. And I'm going to write, I'm going to, you know, try to convey to her, I'm a younger version of you, I want to be in your field. She wrote an essay that just said, this is the only thing I want to do in my life. And you guys are the only people who have it. And, but she knew who's the audience, who she's speaking to. And I was like, wow like I told her way to you get on the job market I love stories like that man it's it's so cool to hear I want to I want to hit back on your talkaholic score now that we're coming to the close at the beginning of the process of writing the book you scored a perfect score

a 50 out of 50 right like full-blown talkaholic at the end your wife rates you as a 38 right which is not in the talkaholic scale what happens? What changed other than obviously writing it? What was it that made you so self-aware to not only know it was a problem, but actually to correct it and have it be noticed by your life partner? Well, I was very intentional about it and she knew that I was working on it and 38 is still borderline talkaholic, you know, and I gave me a stuff I think it was like a 40, but But I intentionally spent time with her saying very little and trying to be quiet and create space. I created a whole list of practices and things.

And I would do them like the way you'd go to the gym or the way you might do yoga or meditate once a day. Like I would every day sort of pick one and go, okay, I'm going to work on this today. but a big, big part of it was interpersonally with her spending time before we'd go out to dinner. I'd tell myself beforehand. I'm not going to say anything except respond to what she says. I'm going to ask questions. I'm just going to listen. And my wife's very introverted.

And it turns out when I shut up and created that space for her, she really opened up. And she was happier. So, yeah, it was just being intentional about talking less and listening more. Thinking about it beforehand. Was it hard, though? Do you, is it feel unnatural? Does it actually feel, dare I say, inauthentic to be that way? There's a difference between, are you faking it or are you really trying to get better, right?

Are you trying to be a better person? And that, that to me is what it was. and what it is. And I slip up, man. If I get talking to another overtalker, sometimes, I lose it, you know, or I get telling stories. So it's a work in progress, you know, and I think for most people, it is not natural. It requires work. It's just that we don't stop to think about it. You know, here's a thing, for two points I'd make. One is what I found, and I'm glad you mentioned my marriage, the first thing I wanted to do is avoid calamity. The next thing I wanted to do was, like, Like, oh, I can get advantages.

I can get a better price on a car, better salary. But then I realized the third beat of that story is I can make the lives of the people around me better, but you have to be conscious about it. It just feels to me like you're very thoughtful and intentional about trying to do this thing that is not natural to you. But it can be done. It's a skill that can be learned. That's the part I wanted to highlight because for someone who's self-aware enough,

realize this is a thing for them, that you're actually living out the story that it's a skill, like a lot of things in life that we can develop and that we can work on and we can get better at. And it will, the reason that it's important to get better at is it will make the lives of those around us better. Yeah, it's an incredible gift. So imagine, I'm talking about my wife and my kids and it should really help there. But imagine you're at work, right?

Imagine you're a manager. If you're a really good manager, what you want is the people who work for you to shine, to get raises and promotions in advance and develop, right? Or just to do great work, right? Just how do I help you optimize your potential or unlock your potential? Well, that begins with listening to them. For someone who's a bit earlier in their career, early to mid-20s, let's say, maybe the graduated college, and they want to leave a positive.

of dent in the world like we've been talking about. They want to do good. Yeah. What are some general pieces of life slash career advice you'd give to that person? One is we've become very obsessed as a culture at trying to get attention and we measure success by our ability to gain attention. So how many Twitter followers you have, right? I think I would be less concerned with just trying to get attention for the sake of

attention and more concerned with getting attention for the fact that you do a great job, that you figure out what your company needs or what your boss needs or what the world needs and work super hard to do that. Making it less about yourself and more about the people around you and the world around you is probably the best way to do a great job. And then the attention you get is not that you have so many Twitter followers or that you talk so much in meetings, but that you deliver real results for people. But also, look, I don't know if you feel this way.

I feel a lot of career, a lot of work is just not being a jerk, you know, like being competent, good at what you do, and conveying to, if you're, you know, entering the workforce, conveying to your boss, if you're right, like, look, I want to get better at this. I know I'm young. I know I'm starting out. You can teach me. But I think it's also just being like a good colleague who doesn't, you know, mouth off in meetings or go criticize the boss on Facebook like I did.

Like, for example, if you want to do well in meetings, you don't take over the meeting and show off and tell everybody how smart you are and talk over people and interrupt, quite the opposite. You know, you sit back, you listen, take notes. You have a couple of really good things. to say or questions even to ask. Some of the best leaders like Tim Cook, they don't really say anything in meetings.

They ask questions. So I feel like, frankly, when you're starting off, you need to make an impression, you need people to see you, because there's a zillion of you around you. But I think there's a way to do that that's more artful and less braggie. The most recent book is called STFU.

The power of keeping your mouth shut in an endlessly noisy world. Highly recommend it. I also, and mentioned to Dan, I read his book called Disrupted My Misadventure in the Startup Bubble years ago and became a big fan of your writing after reading that book.

So I highly recommend checking out all of your books, but especially the most recent one, SDFU, the power of keeping your mouth shut in an endlessly noisy world. It's well written and super helpful. Even if you don't necessarily think this is a problem, there's a chance that your self-awareness level that high. So there's a lot to learn even if you don't think this is a problem for you. I learned a

ton and when I took the assessment, I score very low on it, but I still learned a ton that I think will make me better in both my personal and professional life. So I'm super grateful for you, Dan. And I would love if we could continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. Oh, I would love it too. I really enjoyed this conversation. And of course, I'm sitting here going to going, oh, I should have said this, I should have, but we could probably talk for a long time about this, but it's just communication, right? It's just, how do you communicate with the world? And yeah, it's fascinating. I'd like to hear more of your stories about sales. Happy to. We'll set up another call, man, and we can even record it if you want. We could do a round

too, but I really appreciate your time. I know you got up early on the West Coast with me, so super appreciate it, man. I look forward to talking again soon. Thank you so much. A few years ago, a friend of mine named Neil Pasricha on this podcast called the latter portion of our conversation, the end of the podcast club, and told everyone to email us if they were part of the end of the podcast club, basically if they listened all the way through. So I'm going to borrow that phrase, and from now on, call this outro, the end of the podcast club. And if you're a part of this club, let me know.

Send me a note, Ryan at LearningLeader.com, or tell me when you see me in person. So the end of the podcast club, my notes from this conversation with Dan, earn attention through doing great work, not from being loud and outlandish. It's more lasting and will help you build better relationships and a better career if you earn attention through doing excellent work. And then the best sales reps spend 54% of the call listening and 46% talking. The worst reps talked 72% of the time. The best ones made calls feel like conversations. I think this applies to all of our conversations in our lives. Think about when you're speaking

one-on-one with somebody, how much of the time are you talking versus how much of the time that you're listening? And I would bet that the best conversations are when you spend more time listening. Then the research on eaves dropping on happiness, the research showed that people who spent more time having substantive conversations, these deep, meaningful conversations, much like I could do in this podcast, which is really cool. They were happier than those who spent more time having small talk and, hey, how's the weather type conversation. Just something to think about, surround yourself with people that you can have deep conversations with. And by doing that, it will make you feel more happier and fulfilled. Once again, I want to say thank you so much

for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen. this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Dan Lyons, I think it will help you become a more effective leader, and because you continue to do that, and you continue to spread the word and write a review by going to Ryanhawk.net, which launches you into Apple Podcasts. By continuing to do that, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis, and for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.