The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 532: Michelle "Mace" Curran - Handling Perfectionism, Overcoming Imposter Syndrome, & Becoming A Thunderbird Pilot

Episode Date: June 22, 2023

Text Hawk to 66866 to become part of "Mindful Monday." Join 10's of thousands of your fellow learning leaders and receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right... Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12   https://twitter.com/RyanHawk12 Notes: Michelle "Mace" Curran has led an impressive career as a Fighter Pilot during her 13 years in the United States Air Force. From 2019-2021, she flew as the only female pilot for the Air Force Thunderbirds and performed for millions across the country and internationally. Before joining the Thunderbirds, Michelle was a combat-proven fighter pilot completing missions across Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. What inspired Michelle to join the Air Force? "I had a grandpa who was a lieutenant in the Navy. I went through his World War II trunk and tried on uniforms and looked at postcards. He got to travel all over the world. I grew up in a small town and I wanted to travel. I've always been drawn to flying. I hadn't done a lot of flying aside from commercially, but I loved it, so the Air Force seemed like a natural fit. I was also honestly looking for a scholarship for college, so the three things kind of came together." "C3" Comm – That's clear, concise, and correct communication. How that plays a role as a pilot and how we can use that as leaders outside of the airplane. For the solo opposing passes, each pilot is traveling at 500mph, that's 1000mph of closure toward each other. The timing that makes sure the aircraft safely pass each other at the center point directly in front of the crowd is all done through radio calls. Every call must communicate clearly, concisely, and correctly. There are a lot of benefits to having a beginner's mindset. What does Michelle say to young girls? "You have to exceed people's expectations. People are going to set expectations for you based on where you grew up, the family you came from, your gender — there are all different factors that go into that. Constantly do your best, strive for perfection, exceed those expectations, and really don't shortchange yourself. Don't set boundaries that don't really exist, that you just place there for yourself. You'll be surprised at all of the things you can do if you just keep pushing." "We wield a lot of power with our words." Let's plant a seed of inspiration. As leaders, our words carry a lot of weight. Let's use that to help other people strive for more and potentially accomplish more than they ever thought they were capable of. What an awesome use of our power. The Debrief - It's the sacred environment of flying. Your rank doesn't matter. It's all about focusing on what happened and how we can get better. I think our companies would be better if we had consistent debriefs after a big moment to ensure we are learning from our mistakes and getting better… The person you are today is likely much different than the one you were ten years ago. The person you will be ten years from now will probably be just as different compared to who you are now. Michelle initially didn't feel capable as a fighter pilot. But she kept showing up. It's important that we have the courage to keep going even when we don't feel ready. Being a female fighter pilot, Mace was in a male-dominated career... She was often the only woman in my unit and roughly 3% of fighter pilots in the Air Force are female even thirty years after combat airframes were opened to women, Leaders and followers – A young flight lead could be in command of a general whose role is to be the wingman… Mace has written a children's book that just came out called Upside Down Dreams. It is a story written for girls with big dreams looking for a real-world heroine.  

Are you clearly communicating the message? Do the recipients have the same context that you have? And making sure it's correct that the things you're spreading out are factual and based on good information or good data. Even on the Thunderbirds, rumors start to spread. And that rumor mill in an organization, it's frustrating when there's that uncertainty. But it also really hurts morale. Welcome to The Learning Leaders Show, presented by Insight Global.

I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text, Hawk to 666866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email for me each Monday morning to help you start your week all right. You'll also receive details about how my book, The Pursuit of Excellence, will help you become a more effective leader. text Hawk to 66866. Now on tonight's feature leader, the great Michelle Curran has led an impressive

career as a fighter pilot during her 13 years in the United States Air Force. From 2019 to 2021, she flew as the only female pilot for the Air Force Thunderbirds and performed for millions across the country and internationally. Before joining the Thunderbirds, Michelle was a combat-proven fighter pilot completing missions across Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. She's awesome. During this conversation, we discussed the importance of C3Com, that's clear, concise, and correct communication, how that plays a role as a pilot and how we can use that as leaders outside of the airplane.

And then the problem with labeling ourselves as introverts or extroverts. Michelle told a great story about this, and she told another story about the airplane. the value of having a beginner's mindset. And by doing so, it will propel you to potentially do things that you never thought possible. And I'm super grateful for Michelle sharing that. Ladies and gentlemen, this one is so good. It's the great Michelle Curran. Michelle, current to have you here on the Learning Leader Show.

Welcome. Thanks for having me. I'm excited for our conversation. I was reading a story earlier today about your grandpa, who was a lieutenant in the Navy. and he had this trunk of World War II stuff. Can you talk to me about that and how maybe he inspired you to do what you have chosen to do? Yeah, I love, no one has ever asked me about that. So I'm actually excited to share that with you.

Yeah, so my dad's dad, my grandpa on that side, like he said, was a lieutenant in the Navy in World War II. And he actually was off the coast when one of the atomic bombs went off in Japan and could see the mushroom cloud from it. What? And we could go down a rabbit hole in that. He ended up actually passing away from a brain tumor. And my grandma was, I was convinced it was because of radiation exposure in the military. So I'd be curious to see what kind of research came out of that eventually. But he passed away when I was two.

So I don't actually have any memory of him. And he was the only person in my family that was active duty. But growing up, we would go to my grandma's house. And she just was like a collector of antiques. So she always had cool stuff, like stashed away in the attic and that kind of thing. and one of them was his Navy trunk, which was the military green metal trunk with his name stamped on the end. So it's a lieutenant curran. And it was just like this treasure chest of cool things as a kid in a small town.

And I would pull out all his stuff. His glasses were in there, photos, letters he had written to my grandma, his uniforms, his pipe, like a knife, like all of these things. And it was just like this little peek into the past, but also into kind of like the adventure that was out there and all the places you could travel in the military. And I think that kind of planted a seed for, I guess, the opportunities that were in that space. Given the fact that the number of pilots who are women, especially where you were and what you've done, is so low, how did you think about that? How do you think about, I want to be a pilot? I want to be a fighter pilot. I want to be a thunder like all the things like each step you go it's harder and harder for any person let alone someone who there aren't many people who look like you who are doing that how did you think about that as you kept progressing at first I didn't think about it at all so when I was in in college and I got to see two f15s two fighter jets take off close for the first time and that was kind of the first time I had been close to any fighter aircraft that was the moment where I was like holy crap

I want to go do that. And at that moment, it was just pure excitement. And I was like, this is my goal. I'm going to figure out how to do it. Let's make it happen. And I just, like, grinded towards that relentlessly forever after that. And I didn't think about gender until I got into pilot training. And it started to be highlighted to me.

I was in a class of 25 students and I was the only woman in that class. So it was very apparent at that point. but I had really amazing friends in that environment and we were really tight-knit, but there was one point towards the end of that program when we were competing specifically to get fighter aircraft. And there were seven of us that were eligible. And we knew that just based on trends, it was likely that the Air Force was probably only going to have one or two fighter airframes available for each class. And so most of us weren't going to have that opportunity.

And that was what so many of us wanted so bad. And it was kind of between myself and one other person in my class for that second spot. The guy that was in first had just crushed it and he was clearly ranked first. We all knew it. But between me and the other guy, we had gone back and forth a little bit with where we thought we were in class ranking. And I remember our last check ride, which is this airborne.

an evaluation that holds a lot of weight. He said something to me. He was getting frustrated because I was doing pretty well. And he said something like, I don't know why I'm even putting in all this effort because they're going to give you a fighter because you're a girl. Like verbatim, he said that to me. And I was just stunned. I couldn't believe, A, that he had the balls to say that. And B, that he was like, he was the victim. You know what I mean? Like, we're all there just working as hard as we can. me off guard and made me mad, but then it kind of fueled me. And so I went out, I think, like the next day and did that check ride and I crushed it. And I ended up securing the second spot. And I got a fighter and we only got two for my class. So he went on to fly heavy aircraft,

which has benefits as well. But his dream was to be a fighter pilot. And I don't like to be vindictive, but there was a little bit of satisfaction after that comment that that's how it worked out. When they make choices on this, how much of it is based on quantitative versus qualitative? I'm curious of how that whole process works. Okay, Michelle has earned it. How do they make that call? Yeah, so it's some of both. And so you can't say it's purely number based.

They do take all your scores from those check rides. They take all your graded flights that you've been doing for over the whole year. And they have like a spreadsheet. They put those in that generates a number. then they also look at kind of your leadership skills and your attitude and all of those things. And those, of course, are more subjective. And all of that goes into your flight commander, who's like your immediate supervisor, into their ranking.

And they will rack and stack people one through 25 in your class. And so that person, of course, has some bias like everyone does. I know they try really hard to look at the numbers as much as possible, but it's not 100% based on that. Gotcha. So the same way for Thunderbirds to be a Thunderbird pilot, because I read actually, you spent three years in Japan. Is that right? Yeah. So my first combat squadron in the F-16 was Massawa Japan. So I lived there from 2012 to 2015. What was what was that like? It was highs and lows, I would say. So living in a foreign country was very challenging at times, but also a really cool unique experience.

I have a lot of nostalgia towards it now, and I would love to go back and take my family. Just the most unique things about just grocery shopping there and traveling there and eating crazy sushi restaurants where things are still moving on your plate. And just we weren't anywhere close to Tokyo. So this is like full Japanese culture. It's most people don't speak English. You don't get the same influences from the West that you get in kind of the Tokyo area. And so it was tough at times because I didn't say.

speak Japanese and you end up having kind of your whole world be the people that you work with because those you know they're co-workers but they're also your neighbors they're also your friends and while that can lead to really tighten it close relationships it can also lead to no work life separation and you're under a lot of stress and there were moments I just needed a break from it and there was really nowhere to go to get that I read that growing up you were more shy and introverted. And sometimes the labels like that can be paralyzing when maybe for the benefit of whatever you're doing for your profession, it's tougher if you're a shy and introverted person. Is that true? And if so, how did you manage that as you, especially doing what you do today?

But even growing up within the military and flying that we don't tend to see pilots be like that. I could be wrong. I'm not a pilot. I haven't spent that much time around them. But how did that impact you as you viewed yourself in that potential label as being shy and introverted with what you chose to do for a living? Yeah, so I struggled with that quite a bit, especially early on in my career. I was, I would say, painfully shy as a kid. Like I had almost social anxiety. I didn't want to be picked on in class or called on in class. I didn't want to get in front of my peers. All of that stuff was just terrifying to me. And I found myself even like in ROTC starting to grow and they're like kind of pushing me to get past that, but I still struggled with it.

Anytime there was a leadership opportunity, I knew I could do it and I knew it would be good for me to kind of compete for this pilot slot that I wanted, but I had like this, this anxiety and this fear of getting out in front of people, which is funny because I'm a keynote speaker now. And as I got into the fighter pilot culture, I think I put some unnecessary stress on myself around all of those labels because I had the, misconception that most people have that all fighter pilots are like maverick from top gun you know type a super assertive overly confident bordering on arrogant like that's just how everyone is and there is a level of confidence that's required airborne because you don't have the time to doubt yourself like that's

going to get you killed so you have to have the level of confidence airborne but behind closed doors within the squadron the best pilots that i've worked with they're not arrogant at all they're the the first ones to recognize their weaknesses and like the gaps that need to be filled and seek out help and ask for mentorship and ask questions and take extra time to try to improve their skills and their areas that are weaker. And so there's a lot of admitting mistakes and there's a lot of vulnerability and everything that comes with that kind of growth mindset. And if they put up that arrogant facade, they would shut down a lot of opportunities to actually get as good as they possibly could be. And so once I realized that, which took some time, I would say that first

assignment in Japan, I struggled with this whole identity of how do I fit into this group? Because there's still some like kind of good old boys, antics, bravado type stuff that would happen. And it really made me feel like I didn't fit in with everyone, even though they never did anything to me to exclude me. It just made me feel like I couldn't be myself there. And I eventually realized that I could be and once I kind of let those barriers down and was just showing up authentically to work, I realized that a lot of my peers, a lot of my male peers were very similar. And so I found the people that had similar hobbies, that had similar viewpoints. And I became really, really good friends with them. And then they also were incredible mentors when it came to flying. And so not everyone

One is type A extroverted in that space, but you can kind of get that misconception at surface value. I've talked to a few fighter pilots, and one of the commonalities that comes up that maybe helps with keeping egos in check is the fact that the debriefs, the after-action reviews, I don't know if I'd say they humble you, but if you're not humble, you just won't do well in that environment. Can you talk to me more about the debriefs, the after-action reviews? because it's not just about we think about the top gun mission where they're fire and missiles.

It's after every single time you fly. And you have to have an open mind to learn. What were the debriefs like for you after each of your flights and that overall philosophy, the culture of the debrief? So the debrief is like this sacred environment in the fighter pilot culture. It's something that happens, like you said, after every single flight. So even on the Thunderbirds, when we're flying almost the exact same mission day in, day out, the same air show over and over. And like you mentioned, I did that for three years.

So I've flown it hundreds and hundreds of times. Even our last flight, my last flight in the F-16, we debriefed afterwards. The last flight of the season, when everyone's families are waiting downstairs to crack the bottles of champagne to celebrate the end of the season, they're like, are they done yet? No, they're still in debrief. So we would sit there and rank comes off. It doesn't matter if you're the squadron commander, you lead the whole base. if you're a general or if you're a first assignment lieutenant,

which are opposite ends of the spectrum as far as military rank and age and experience, if you made a mistake during that flight, you're expected that you're going to fess up, you're going to talk about it, that it's going to get kind of dug into to try to figure out what the root cause of the mistake was. And everyone realizes that that is what makes the team as a whole better. So when that's accepted and that's what's expected from the day you show up, you're very quickly kind of brought into that mindset and that I think human nature to kind of save face and prove yourself in a new environment, especially one that comes with all the stereotypes that a fighter pilot squadron does.

That immediately is kind of taken out of you. Like it's just you're given positive feedback for fessing up your mistakes and being willing to dive into them. and it's like a cardinal sin if you hide something. That is like the worst thing you can do. Making the mistake airborne, it's expected. And that's going to happen again and again throughout your career. You never have a perfect flight. But trying to hide it, that will immediately get you a negative reputation in the squadron.

And you'll be pulled aside and talk to about it from day one. And so it just is kind of flushed out of the culture early on. Is there, because you speak with corporate audiences now. When you go on the road, you're a keynote speaker all over the place. And this would be an area that I think would be attractive for any corporation, any company to get better at. It just doesn't happen that much, especially the part with rank of saying regardless of what your experience is or how long you've been to here or whatever your title is, we're going to debrief pretty much how everybody performed for whatever. I worked in sales into corporate America, so maybe it's easier. Hey, we all went on that sales call, right?

From the frontline person to the manager and maybe the VP came for some executive presence and then doing a deep debrief and everybody's an equal. How would you, what advice would you give to companies and corporations to say, here's how you could take what we did as pilots, as fighter pilots, and do it in your place of work? I think it has to come from the top down. Yep. I think you have to have the senior person on that call or in that.

meeting has to demonstrate the behavior that you're trying to get everyone else to do. And if they're not, that immediately kind of closes that door to communication. So if they stand up there and aren't willing to admit their own shortcomings, their own mistakes and errors, then no one else is going to be willing to either. So I think that has to be like where the seed is planted. But it takes time and repetition to grow a culture. It doesn't just happen in one meeting. So I think it has to be something that people lay out as a goal to actually create. And then they look at what intentional steps can be taken as far as making an intentional debrief plan. This is when we're going to do it. This is how long it's going to last. These are objectives for it. And then creating that culture

where people have the psychological safety to fail and to admit it and to be like, okay, I should have done this different. I miss this deadline or whatever. And know that they're not going to get ridiculed, shamed, that people aren't going to be talking about it in the break room afterwards, that instead it's kind of just like, okay, we accept that that mistake was made. How can we all learn from it next time? And so it takes a lot of intention to get to that point. Something else you've talked about, you just have to be effective communicators. And C3Com, I believe is a term that I have read, clear, concise, correct communication is

essential to a great mission. Can you share more about your communication and why it's so vital? I mean, it sounds obvious, but I want to dig even deeper for those of us who are not flying, but leading in other places in the world, how we can take your philosophies on being an excellent communicator and maybe some tactics that you've used and put that into the world beyond flying. So the C3 com of being clear, concise, and correct, what's that all about? So before every flight you have a brief and one of the things you do is write your objectives for that flight up on the whiteboard in the briefing room. And C3Com is almost always an objective.

And it's because the time to actually get words out and communicate what you need to communicate is so small airborne that if you're not, if you don't already know what you want to say before you key that mic and if you don't say it in the most abbreviated way that gets the message across clearly to the recipient. the mission is going to be a failure. You're going to be stepping on each other's radio calls, trying to talk at the same time. People are going to miskeep points of information, especially on the Thunderbirds. It was a safety issue if we couldn't communicate because, I mean, for the solo pilots, which is what I did, anyone who's seen the show, we do what looks like a head on path, like a chicken pass where opposing passes is what we call them. We're both pointed straight at each other. And we pass each other about 50 feet away, each going 500 miles an hour, and so much relies on communication to get that timing right,

to make sure we see each other, that we're visually de-conflicted so we don't hit each other. There's just so many things. And the amount of time you have to get that radio call out is a split second. If you're late, something else is already happening, and the ship's sail. So I think we can take that into our operational communication in the business world, too, where you have the joke where we're like, oh, we're having a meeting that should have been an email that you see over and over, especially with Zoom calls and the pandemic and how that's all shifted. But really evaluating if you are hitting those three things, all three Cs, are you clearly communicating the message?

Do the recipients have the same context that you have and realizing that you might know stuff in your head that they don't? And so the message might be received different than your intention. and then everyone appreciates a concise email that just gets to the point that they don't have to read paragraphs and paragraphs of information. And then making sure it's correct that the things you're spreading out are factual and based on good information or good data. Because, I mean, even on the Thunderbirds, rumors start to spread and that rumor mill in an organization about like, oh, hey, we heard this is getting canceled and we're getting scheduled for this instead. And we heard our break over this holiday is getting canceled because now we're going to go fly to. this thing like that starts to spread an organization and it's frustrating when there's that uncertainty but it also really hurts morale because people get mad that they're not getting good data to plan

their lives around or to act on and so i think correct is also a really important part of communication sounds obvious but super important and useful to think about that and i think if every leader thought all right part what is our mission like what are we doing here for the day are What are we trying to get out of this meeting? And one of the things that was on their mind was to be clear, concise, and correct. We'd all be much better off. We'd all be in a much better place if this is how we regularly thought about it. And not just, it's like the checklist manifesto.

I think it's a tool go on day. He wrote about the fact that before all of these surgeries that these doctors were doing, he built this checklist. And it seemed like the most obvious stuff. You're like, well, of course, yeah, you have that. Of course you do that. But they found that when they didn't use the checklist, they would mess something up. They would forget something.

They wouldn't do it. And I think as leaders, if we're using the example of meetings, since we do have meetings all the time, why shouldn't we do the same thing? Why shouldn't we try to have C3Com for our meetings and have checklist to make sure that we're doing that as opposed to just kind of wandering into the meeting? Like, oh, what do we got? You know, that type of thing, which happens. and that's when it turns into, hey, couldn't this have been an email? I think that should be on us as leaders to think about that. Yeah, I love the checklist reference because in aviation, you're using checklists all the time.

Everything you do in the aircraft is intentional. And I think there's a lot to be pulled from that. A checklist is just a tool to be very intentional to evaluate your actions against. And like C3Com is a great example and tying that into the debrief. like going into a meeting being like, okay, here are our goals for today. And that being one of them, even though that might not be like a tactical hands-on executionable thing at the end of the meeting that you walk away with. But taking that and being like, we would like to have our communication follow this style. And then at the end of the meeting, intentionally reflecting and being like,

did we stay on track? Were things clearly communicated? Did people receive them how I intended them to? and taking that intentional time to evaluate yourself against that like mini checklist, eventually it becomes a habit and you don't have to do it so intentionally. But that takes time and repetition to get to that point. Did I read you were also an instructor at one point in your career? Yeah, an instructor pilot. Instruct, right? Okay, so I'm curious what you, how you view, what are the qualities or the characteristics

of a world-class pilot? What are you looking for in someone who to say, I like working with them, I like teaching them. I want them to be a part of my team. What are some of those characteristics they possess? I mean, humility is a big one for sure. That's an underlying character trait that all the best pilots I know are humble. There might be some really great tacticians that are very, very smart in the aircraft. But I've seen arrogance kind of get in the way of what their actual potential could be. And I think being a pilot goes, being a good pilot goes beyond just the hands-on flying of the aircraft. It does go into the whole person kind of concept and the leadership

abilities because as you advance in the career, you aren't on an island. You're not operating alone, even if you're in a single-seat fighter aircraft. You are always working with your wingmen. You're always working with at least one other jet airborne, if not four, if not 50 in a large force kind of environment. And so you have to have. have to be humble, approachable. In our weapons school, which is the Air Force's version of Top Gun, their creed is humble, approachable, incredible. And I think that's just such a powerful kind of summary of the characteristics that you really look for. Because that credibility, obviously, you have to be good at what you do. You can't be not understanding the tactics and not knowing

what to do airborne. You have to be good at the basic skills. But beyond that, being approachable, and credible, especially when you get into that instructor realm that you mentioned, that is where you're able to really teach students most effectively. Humble, approachable, and credible? Yep. I like that. Because approachable is not necessarily a word that comes up when you think of a leader or a pilot, even though it's very important.

But I like that's an intentional choice to say part of your role is you need to be more approachable. I feel like leaders would probably be better off if we thought about this more. Well, I think a lot of people will say I have an open door policy. Yeah. Right. Like they'll take over as a leader and they'll be like, hey, you know, nice to meet you. Here I am.

Here's the things I want to focus on. Here's my vision. I have an open door policy. You know, if anything comes up, just swing on by. You can say that all you want and you can physically have your door open all you want. But if you don't create an environment where people feel safe to go to you with suggestions, with problems, no one's going to come talk to you about anything. And so you're not going to have a good, we have a.

say like the pulse of the unit. You're not going to have a good feel for what's actually going on within the organization if you're not approachable. So earning that spot with the Thunderbirds, I know is incredibly competitive. It's amazing to watch. Can you walk me through that story of how you made that decision and then you decided to go for it and then how you earned it? Yeah. So applying to the Thunderbirds is a complicated process. And I didn't even realize quite how complicated when I was an applicant. I became much more aware of all of the nuances in the hiring decisions once I was on the other side doing the hiring. It was at the end of my second full assignment. So I had been operationally flying the F-16 for about six years. And I

already had my follow on. I was based in Texas and I was supposed to go to New Mexico as my next base. And the Air Force Personnel Center will send out these like mass emails with all these different job opportunities that pop up. And I'll be very honest, I just generally deleted them and didn't even read them because I kind of knew what I was doing next. For whatever reason, I opened this one and it's hiring for the Thunderbirds. And not only is it the hiring announcement, but it's kind of like the last, like, hey, applications closed next week. If you haven't gotten it in yet, like, we're running out of time. And I looked at it and I opened it and looked at the requirements. and it wasn't even anything I had done research on.

It was one of those things that throughout your career randomly at various points, it was that was something that I was intrigued by, but never told anyone that I was interested in. And so I opened it. I'm like, wow, I actually meet all of these requirements. And so I kind of, that assignment, I grew a lot as a person, and I became a lot more confident and a lot more bold. And I was like, I think I want to explore this.

So I went to my boss that day and I was like, so what do you think about this? Applications closed in five days. And he was an amazing leader and mentor. And I could have gone either way at that moment. He could have said, hey, you already have an assignment to New Mexico. If you wanted to do this, we should have planned for it months ago. Like that ship has sailed. And I would have just gone off to my next assignment.

But instead, he was like, do you want to do that? I think you'd be amazing for that position. What do we need to do to make it happen? And so he really helped me with getting letters of recommendation and personnel files and all the things. I had about a 50 page application to submit. And there was a weekend in the middle of those five days. So it was a lot to make happen. And he helped me do that.

And we sent it in and I ended up getting an interview. And 12 of us went to semi-finalist interviews for three open spots. We spent a whole weekend with the team on the road on an air show. A couple months went by. six of us got called back as finalists, did another round of like spectating, I guess, at the air show, but also kind of interviewing with the team. They get the vibe of your personality, if you'll be a good fit. And then more formal interviews with leadership, a 12-person panel interview, which was terrifying, but very fun to be on the other. It was fun to be on the panel in future years,

but terrifying to be the interviewee in that setting. Real quick, can I pull on that string? There are leaders who are going for promotions, and panel interviews can be a part of that process. And so I think people at times are, like you said, like, how is this going to go? You obviously did it well. Do you recall what you did that impressed them so much that earned you the spot? Because this is not a charity. They're picking the best of the best.

And so obviously you did something right. Do you remember what you did and what impressed them? that panel interview? I think having sat on the other side, I eventually had the perspective to realize what I did. So I think it was being willing to answer every question, even if I took a second to pause, but coming up with a solid answer, we had people that would just dodge a question if they didn't have something prepared or if it was something that caught them off guard. They would never really give you an answer.

And that was extremely frustrating. And definitely, I guess like a downgrade when you're trying to look at how everyone compared with each other. But then I was, I just tried really hard to be myself and just be authentic. And I remember cracking a joke in, in response to one of the questions, and they all laughed. And that was kind of scary to do because you're rolling the dice there a little bit. And you have to kind of know the room, right? You can't make a joke that is too far as far as informal and too familiar feeling, because we had people do that as well when I was on the other side. And you're like, okay, this is still an interview. You need to take it seriously. So I think it was just being authentic

and letting my personality show through because they know your flying ability. They know your record in that regard. And they know they can teach you to fly the aircraft. And so that's not really the thing they're looking for at that point. It's your ability to interact with the public, to kind of be the public face of the Air Force, your ability to hang out with the same people on the road for 240 days a year in a stressful environment. And honestly, going through the process myself and then being on the other side for three years, and we did a lot to really dig into the hiring process and see how we could make it as good as possible. The number one key to success for the Thunderbirds and for any high performing team, I would say,

is hiring the right people. And we realized just how important that was. And it was the flying skill was just a tiny little. piece of that. The most important thing was bringing together a group of people that could really mesh well and making sure there weren't any kind of toxic personalities in there because just one of those can completely destroy the team. Yeah, I could imagine that 240 days. What was that like on you just as a person traveling? I mean, not to mention when you're working, you've got to be so on. You can't just kind of work. You have to be 100% focused. And so that has to be mentally

taxing. But for 240 days, what was that like? That was the hardest part of the job, for sure. And to add a nice layer of complexity on there, because I don't like to do anything easy. I met my husband when I first moved to Las Vegas, and we got married six months later. We're in our 30s. We knew what we wanted. So I start my first show season with the Thunderbirds in March, we get married in May on a Monday at the Little White Chapel in Vegas, the same one that Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck just went to because that was the only day we could do it, which is not our style at all. We're not like a lope to Vegas and Little White Chapel on a Monday afternoon type people, but whatever stereotype goes with that. But that was just the only

option we had because of the schedule. Otherwise, we were going to be waiting three years. So my first three years of marriage and I had a stepson or I have a stepson. He was five when I met him, you know, trying to become a stepparent and create those bonds and create a routine. It was very difficult. And I think that made it even harder. My first year on the team was for sure the hardest because we're in the honeymoon phase where you just want to spend all that time together.

We just got married. I have my new stepson and I'm just gone all of the time. And I'm also, this adds another layer to it. We have six pilots on the demo team. I am the only woman flying on the team for those whole three years. I was there. So I was constantly getting extra attention, which sometimes led to amazing opportunities, but also felt like a lot of responsibility.

And like I always, like you mentioned, I had to be on. I was constantly looked at as a role model and had to be having those interactions with people that were leaving a positive inspirational impact on them every day. And sometimes it was very fun and rewarding. And sometimes I would go hide in the bathroom at a PR event because I just needed a break. And then someone would start talking to me in the bathroom and has to take a picture. I'm like, just wait a minute until I get out. Yeah.

So that was hard. And that was where I really struggled again with kind of this idea that I'm an introvert. And I need this time to recharge my battery. where I can be alone and kind of a something that really stuck with me. My boss on the Thunderbirds, we call boss, but Thunderbird number one, he was constantly being pulled in all these directions as well. He's the one that's getting up on a stage at an event and making remarks like multiple times a week.

He's the one that he's kind of like the DV that people always want to meet with. Like, oh, the mayor is here. Can you come say hi? It's like that kind of vibe. And so he's being pulled in all these directions. And he did it really well. Meanwhile, he's also leading the air show, all this other stuff, leading a team of 130 people. And at one point, I think it was late in my first year or into my second year.

I was just like, I'm so over this. I am burned out. I think you hired the wrong person because I'm not a good Thunderbird because I don't want to go out there and talk to everyone all the time. And I had like this imposter syndrome feeling and it had nothing to do with my flying ability. And at one point, he was like, Mace, I am an introvert too. I just do it and I recharge in my hotel room when I get the chance, but I just do it. Like you have to find the energy and find the priorities and find the routine that works for you so that when you are in the public facing part of the job, you can do it.

And I was shocked that he considered himself an introvert because I didn't see that at all from my perspective. And it kind of shown this light like, okay, maybe I should reevaluate that label and what it looks like. And so I've done that since then. And I think me and my head using this filter of like, well, what an introvert do in this situation? How would an introvert feel after interacting with people for 12 hours? That was really holding me back. It was like putting myself in this little box and filtering all these interactions as to what I should do because I'm an introvert. And it was, this is a dumb comparison. But if you were a sleep tracker where it tells you if you had like a good night

sleep like an aura ring or a Fitbit or a fit bit or tested them before or yeah any of those yeah you look at it and it says you had a shitty night sleep but you feel fine and all of a sudden you're like oh i'm tired today yeah yeah so i feel like that's what i was doing to myself by calling myself an introvert it i actually think this is super important because i like dan pink stuff of a lot of us can be ambiverts like there are moments when we're that and moments when we're not there are some that are just blatant extroverts. We know those people. But I feel like most of us fall more on the spectrum of that and be that ambervert at times that he wrote about and to sell as human. And by using a label, it can be an excuse to maybe behave not poorly, but not up to our standard. So I like that you've

really focused on not labeling yourself to like almost give you an excuse to not be a good leader or a good person in the public or whatever may be. I think that's really important. Absolutely. I think just having that perspective and consciously evaluating what that label does to how you perceive things and how you take action based on it is pretty powerful. And also, it's a good reminder that we're not stagnant. Like, I was for sure a very shy kid.

Okay, cool. I'm 35 years old now. Why do I even talk about that? Like, I don't have to be this shy person for my whole life. Like, that's a moment in time. And we have new experiences. We grow as people of course we do. It's so obvious, but I think we can get very stuck in how we were labeled as a kid,

our parents viewed us. Like, because you hear that stuff again and again as a child, right? Like, oh, my daughter's really shy or, oh, she's such a good student. She's been such an easy child. She never pushes back, like all these things. and now all of a sudden your whole life is being filtered through these labels. It makes you think more about the words you use with your kids. And Carol Dweck's work and with growth mindset, which I know you know a lot about,

but that thing of just labeling them is, oh, they're smart, or they're this or they're that, as opposed to saying, I don't even think I'd call it a label, maybe a better way to talk about is behaviors of hard work, being kind, being generous, being there for your friends. I think that seems like a much better way to talk about it, as opposed to saying, oh, Michelle is just straight A student. She's really smart. Yeah, I actually fell into this huge perfectionism trap based on all of that.

When I got into my operational squadron and things started to get hard, because it turns out I was in a difficult career and no one is the equivalent of a straight A student when you show up. Like, you don't know anything. You've gone through about five years of training and you feel like you reach the top of this mountain when you graduate from pilot training and then from F-16 training, you're like, I'm ready to take on the world. Like, I can do this. And then you get to your squadron and you realize that was the tip of the iceberg. Like, you're just showing up so that you can safely fly the airplane, but you are not good at anything yet. And for me, that like rocked my world. All of a sudden I was questioning my

identity, if I deserve to be there, all these things because I had always been good at things. And I, like, I don't want to blame my parents. They obviously did a great job and set me up to go after some really big dreams, but I was the one that was the achiever in the family. Like I always did everything well and they were always telling their friends about how proud they were of X, Y, and Z. And so as I started to struggle at probably a very average level as a brand new fighter wingman, I all of a sudden was like, holy crap, I'm not good enough. I should have never picked this as my goal. I should leave. I should go do something else, which is crazy. Of course you're not good at first. I've said this before now, but it just keeps coming up.

After eight plus years of this, Michelle and however many, 500 plus, one of the things that I find to be in common amongst everyone, and the answer is usually a letdown, but it's also true. And to me, it's some weird way inspiring. We are all figuring it out as we go. Yep. We all are. Every single one of us are figured, because that is a question that comes up with the Q&A during speeches all the time.

And I say that and I can see like shores, oh, wait, what? They're looking for this like, oh, they're big and confident and charismatic. Maybe, but we are all figuring it out as we go. And when you realize that, in a way, to me, it's like sky's the limit. We all can get there, but it doesn't happen overnight. It's usually a path like this, right? It's up and down. It's not just straight up.

But the main key I find with that is we have to keep going. We have to be consistent. We have to show up the next day. even though we have these huge doubts of, like you had, right, of, oh, I've been straight A student. I'm very smart. I've been labeled as that. And now I'm doing this new thing. And I don't know. I don't know if I'm that good. But you kept showing up and that was the difference. Yeah, I love that you brought that up because I talk about that exact thing when I speak now. Yeah.

Because I think I show up as a former Thunderbird pilot and they expect me to have like, I always say like a magic eight ball or some like, magical trait that I'm going to reveal to them so that they can be like admire it and be like, oh, I wish I had that. But that's not it at all. I'm like, here we go. I'm human. This was the key to my success was realizing exactly what you just said, but having the courage to start something or go after something even when you don't feel ready. Like figuring out how to get past that fear barrier, that discomfort barrier, and go after the thing you want. because you're never going to feel 100% ready. And if you do, it's not big enough.

And it took me a lot of trial and air to figure that out. And I'm like, that's the key to progress. I don't have a magic eight ball that whoever you admire, a professional athlete. I mean, maybe there's some genetic advantage there. But it's still the same thing. They weren't always good at whatever sport they play. They were terrible at first.

They had to put in day after day of hard work and repetition to get to that point. We give people a halo effect. We put leaders on a pedestal and think that they are all knowing or athletes or whoever it is, but they're all just human and they're all just figuring out, which is so empowering, I think. I agree. And regularly a tactical way to maybe to get better at this skill. I do think it's a skill to develop this mindset is to regularly put yourself in the position of being a beginner, whatever that may be, physically, mentally, but doing things that maybe you haven't done where you're okay.

started like trying out pickleball i don't understand the rules i was pretty good ping pong player growing up and could play tennis but pickleball i could play against people who are far less athletic than me right played college football and afterwards for a little bit so i like to think i could move and play but they're crushing me right absolutely destroying me in pickleball because i don't know how to play i'm learning and i'm determined to get better but i think doing stuff like that is is helpful to kind of work that muscle of saying it's okay to be a beginner it's okay to suck at it's okay to get beat just have the willingness to kind of keep going and keep going. And I think that has been like a critical way to develop that skill.

Absolutely. I find so many people talk about that when it comes to aviation. There's a lot of recreational pilots who are like, this is hard at first. And there's a lot to learn. And it's high repercussion if I mess up. And I cannot tell you the number of leaders in companies like high up, CEOs, C-suite level, who are also general aviation.

pilots, a lot of them. And I think there's like some characteristics there of being willing to kind of step into the unknown and suck at something at first and learn and keep forging forward, like that personality trait. They kind of align in both things. And so it served them well in their professional life, but it also makes them prone to go do something like, I'm going to learn to fly an airplane. Yeah, be willing to step into the unknown. I love that. You wrote a book, speaking of the word, you mentioned dreams. It's called upside down dreams. And it's a children's book. And I think it's really cool.

I think writing a children's book would be hard. So one, I'm curious about that because I love to do it at some point. I've written other types of books, but I think a children would be cool. What made you want to write this children's book and who is it for? And what's the core theme and the message? Yeah. So it is hard in some respect that it has to be like 700 words or less, which you're like, sweet, let me knock that out in the next hour.

And then you realize it's really hard to tell a story. And that short of time and use words that kids understand. But no, I did not make the story too long, talk about concise calm. In 2019, we were at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum in my first year is with the Thunderbird. So we're there in uniform. It's like a meet and greet event. I went into the bookstore at the museum and it's an incredible place, all kinds of amazing aviation, space type stuff. And I was looking just around and I saw the children's books.

And it just occurred to me that most of them didn't have have a female protagonist. There might have been like two that had female characters. And a lot of times it would be a female flight attendant. And so in that moment, I was like, I want to write a kid's book about a little girl who wants to be a pilot and not just a pilot, but a fighter pilot. Like, I want to do this someday. I had no idea how publishing works, how kids books work, nothing. So that kind of was the inspirational moment for me. And I was like, I want to see my book in this gift shop someday. So still working on that part. And then fast forward to the pandemic, all our shows get canceled. I suddenly find myself working remotely as a fighter pilot, which meant I checked my

email for like 30 minutes a day. And then I was like, now what do I do? And so I was like, I have a lot of time on my hands. I'm going to write this children's book. And so I just started writing and it ended up being like 2,000 words at first. And then I had to keep refining it and editing it down over and over and over. And then having no idea how the publishing world works, I'm like, I'm going to send query letters to the best agents I can. can find on the internet. So I look up the agents and children's book that have like the biggest deals and the most number of sales. I'm like, you know, why not? I send out like 30 query letters and basically get no response. Turns out it's a hard industry to break into. Also, the pandemic was

just starting. Most of them live in New York City. Like there was just a lot going on. It wasn't the best time to be an unknown author being like, hey, take a chance on me. And then we started flying again and it got put on the back burner. It didn't become a priority. I was just so busy with flying for the Thunderbirds that it wasn't until I left active duty about a year ago. And I got very active on LinkedIn that someone reached out about ghost writing, like a memoir or a personal development book. And I was like, well, I'm not ready to do that yet, but I have this children's book manuscript. I just mentioned it to her. And she happens to also be a children's author who's published a bunch of books and works for a small publishing company and she

connected me with them and within a week the book deal was signed and we're off to the races. And so it's been a four year journey. And to kind of sum it up, it's about a little girl. She's, you know, eight years old. So I'd say it's really for, it's a picture book. So you could read it to a child that's not even at reading age yet, about up to probably seven year old since kids tend to like characters that are just a smidge older than them. And it's about a little girl who sees these jets flying over her school. She gets in trouble in class for not paying attention. She finds out that her grandpa actually used to be a fighter pilot.

And he kind of is the mentor in the story. And she decides she wants to be a fighter pilot. She's like, I'm going to go do that someday. So she tries really hard in school and starts answering all the questions, doing all the things. And she gets questioned by some of her peers about like why she's a know at all. And this part of the story, I was like, is this too on the nose?

She says she wants to be a fighter pilot and there's a boy that sits behind her. That's like, Lily, why would you want to do that? Only boys are fighter pilots or girls can't be fighter pilots, something like that. And I went back and forth if that was just too much. But then last summer, I had this girl come up to me. I was at EA Ashgosh, gosh, which is the country's biggest aviation flying. It's in Wisconsin. I had this little girl come up to me.

It turns out she was 11. So older than my character in the book. and she was so upset and so sad. She was barely talking so I could hear her. Her head was down. She just looked like she had been shut down. And I was in a flight suit. And she's like, excuse me, what do I do if I really want to be a pilot?

But all the boys at my camp, my summer camp, say that girls don't fly airplanes. And I was like, this shit is still happening? Like, it was almost like she had read the line out of the book. and I showed her some of my cockpit videos. She didn't realize that I was a Thunderbird pilot when she came up. I was just in a green flight suit. I was like, oh, well, you came to the right person. Let me show you these badass inverted F-16 videos with my braid sticking out the back of my helmet.

And I showed her those. I gave her one of my little coins. And she walked away just like so empowered. It was just night and day, her body language and everything. And so that was kind of affirmation for me. This actually does have an audience. So the little girl in the story ends up going to a Thunderbird Air Show and meeting one of the pilots who's a woman. And it's really written from my perspective of all of those types of interactions I had with kids,

but especially with little girls and just seeing this light bulb turn on in their eyes when they realized, a lot of times their moms would drag him up and be like, she just flew that. And they were like, wait, what? like you just got out of that airplane that I just saw flying this crazy demonstration. And it was just like their perspective for what is possible for them got bigger. And so that's all that's what the book is about. And I'm hoping to see it in the Smithsonian at some point, if anyone's listening. Me too.

And God, how good does that feel? How good does that feel to see the impact you can make on somebody when they're so impressionable, they're formative years and you have a chance to completely change the, trajectory of their life. How cool is that? It's it was 100% the best part of that job, way better than the cool flying. And I mean that's that was the thing that made me decide to leave the cockpit and do what I'm doing now because I got addicted to that kind of reaction, right? Like it's just so rewarding and so selfishly I just love how it makes me feel when I see that I get to plant a seed of inspiration with someone. I was like, how can I keep doing that?

And it's every time something like that happens, especially when people reach back out years later or months later and they're like, hey, you probably don't remember me, but we had this conversation or you responded to my DM on Instagram, offered some advice. I went and did the thing and here's the result. And when people follow back up, it's such a powerful reminder that we wield a lot of power with our words in our interactions with people, even if it's brief, especially if you're in a spower, people are looking. to you as a role model, you can crush someone's dreams in one conversation and it can change their actions that will completely change the trajectory of their life. Like it's it's powerful. So why wouldn't you choose to be the person that plants the seed of inspiration instead? Because it's it's just such an amazing feeling. Oh that's so well said. Your videos, okay by the way, talk about an amazing commercial to get

people to want to do what you do. How did this start with the way not only that you film them, which are awesomely filmed, but the way you edit them, the music, the way, I know you're doing this when you were actively flying and I still watch them all the time. But where did that come from? What made you want to start doing that? It feels like I wonder if you got some pushback from others. I don't know why because it was a great commercial to entice people to want to do that work. But walk me through your whole mindset when it comes to the videos that you make and put on Instagram.

Oh, it's been such an evolution. So when I was new to the Thunderbirds, I had a very small Instagram following. I wasn't active on the platform, like sporadically. And it's up to the commander's discretion about how much the team is able to fly with the gopros in the cockpits. And the commander that I had was, he was open to it. He's like, as long as it doesn't become a problem, it's not a distraction airborne. Like, I have no issue with it.

Part of the mission of the Thunderbirds is the PR part, right? And that's a huge tool in being able to reach people. And so people would record cockpit videos, but no one had put really a lot of time into learning how to edit the GoPro 360s or anything. And so I slowly started to edit the videos and just share them on Instagram. And if you were to scroll back all the way to 2019, the quality is not that good. But I spent three years doing it multiple times a week. And so I just got better at it over time. And I think the thing that people really loved is that I also gave them a behind the scenes narrative.

So I would talk about how the maneuver was flown, what we're looking at, the trust that's happening between the pilots, the communication, like all kinds of stuff. I talked about hitting a bird and putting holes in my airplane, like all of these things that people kind of wonder about in that high performance aviation space, but they don't really get to see. They had a direct window into it. And along with that, I also shared just a lot of my life. So I shared stuff about meeting my husband and my stepson and my workouts and getting a dog and all of the day to day just mundane stuff.

But I think that was very empowering to people because they realized that I was just a human with normal human problems and a normal human life outside of when I was in the jet. And so the combination of those two things in the video, the camera's getting better, my editing getting better. The feedback was just incredible. And so I was pretty motivated to keep doing it for no reason. other than people loved it. And eventually that grew a following on Instagram at least. And that's been a huge tool with me pivoting into being an entrepreneur now and kind of having like a personal brand as cheesy as that sounds. But that was never my goal from the beginning. And it wasn't even my goal on my third year on the team. It's kind of been unexpected rewards that have come from it. And I did get some

push back. The military can be very protective of their brand and the assets in aviation, but in general being used on social media. They're kind of seeing the light now and realizing how powerful of a recruiting tool it is, but they were a little bit behind in that space. And so it took some time for them to catch up. And so I definitely had the people that were like, this is unfair. She's using government assets to build. her following so that she can monetize her Instagram, all of this stuff, which I wasn't doing. But it was always the motivation that drove me to be a speaker and an author. It was to be able to impact people in a cool way.

And I would argue that it has been an amazing recruiting tool for the military as well. That makes me want to be a pilot. I'm like, wow, I'm going to do that. Yeah, I was watching the video. It absolutely is for sure. So it's been kind of, it's been frustrating at moments to not. be able to get people to see that but it's also been pretty cool to see the viewpoint on it kind of evolve over the last four years or so and I think they're

they're about to really use social media as a tool because recruiting is hard right now and got to find a way to reach the younger generation with different priorities I get two quick ones sorry before we go if you have time for two two more quick questions yeah okay this one I may have to edit it out but I'm just too curious. How was a Taylor Swift concert? Oh, yeah. I love this question.

It was so good. I'm going in a couple weeks. Yeah. So I don't consider myself a Swifty. Like, I like her music when I happen to hear it on the radio, but I don't seek it out. It's not like I've been following her career religiously the whole time. Yeah. But I do like her music.

And everyone was just so excited about the performance. I got a ticket last minute when, oddly, a friend on Instagram who I've never met in person, her sister got injured and couldn't go to the show. And it was here in Vegas. And so she posted like, hey, I have this ticket. Does anyone want to go with me? And I was like, I'm in town.

Sure, why not? Turns out we hit it off. She was great. And I got to go last minute, great seats as well. I think the reason I thought it was so incredible wasn't even because the music, but because now seeing the work that goes into me just giving a 45 minute keynote, which is literally just me talking on a stage with,

a PowerPoint in the background. The amount of rehearsal and thought that goes into everything to be really good at that, it blew my mind when I first started doing this. To see her perform for three hours straight, like everything is planned, every step, every facial expression, every hair flip, like how she places her hands, it's obviously planned for the most impact and to tell the story. And I'm just so impressed with her as a performer. Like it's crazy.

So there's your answer. Yes, it was good. I don't know if you've been asked that before. I saw the video. So I know I've messed with you afterwards. I'm excited to go in a few weeks. Okay. Just one more.

Let's say, and this probably happens to you all the time, your meeting with somebody who's earlier in their career right after college, perhaps. And they don't necessarily know what they want to do. But they're very inspired by what you've done. And so they want to do good in the world. What are some general pieces of life slash career advice you give to that person? For sure, the biggest one is kind of what we mentioned before, that you're not going to be good at it right out the gate. Like, I wish someone had pulled me aside and told me that because it seems so obvious.

But man, when you're inside of the crucible of trying to learn this difficult thing, you lose perspective on all of that. Like, you will not be good right out the gate. And then kind of with that, don't be afraid to ask for help. Don't be afraid to admit mistakes and let people in and be vulnerable. And you don't have to put up this facade of perfection. Find your mentors. They're there. You just have to be willing to open up to them.

And that was something I wasn't good at at first either. And once I did do that, I just met such amazing people that helped me so much. Love it. Michelle, thank you so much for doing this. I love this conversation. I'm excited for your book to be in the Smithsonian Upside Down Dreams. What an amazing story. I appreciate you telling that element of the story as well.

I'm certainly going to be somebody who is sharing this book as a dad of daughters. So I really appreciate it. And as we've been talking for the past few months, I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress. No, absolutely. It's been a pleasure. You asked me several questions I haven't been asked before, which I feel like it's hard to do at this point. So that keeps it interesting. and it was a fun conversation.

Awesome. Thank you so much. It's the end of the podcast club. Thank you so much for being part of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note. Ryan at learning leader.com. Let me know what you learned from the great Michelle Kern. A few takeaways from my notes, Michelle's story about not feeling capable right away as a fighter pilot.

But she kept going. She kept showing up. She had the courage. And she says it's important that we have the courage to keep going even when we don't feel ready. And if we feel ready all of the time, then maybe we're not stretching enough. Then we wield a lot of power with our words. Let's plant a seed of inspiration as leaders. Our words, they carry a lot of weight.

Let's use that to help other people strive for more and potentially accomplish more than they ever thought they were capable of. It's so awesome that we have this power with our words. weight that they carry, let's use that power for good. Then the debrief, the after-action reviews, this is the sacred environment of flying. Your rank doesn't matter. It's all about focusing on what happened and how we can get better. We can do this more in our companies. We'd be better off if we had consistent debriefs after big moments to ensure we're learning

from our mistakes and getting better. And implementing a series of debriefs is a great way to do this. Once again, I'm going to say thank you so much for. continuing to spread the message and telling her friend or two. Hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Michelle Curran. I think she'll help you become a more effective leader. And because you continue to do that and you continue to go to Ryanhawk.net, which launches you into Apple Podcasts. And once you're there, you write a thoughtful review and you write the show, hopefully five stars.

By doing that, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to soon. Can't wait.