The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 538: Dr. Julie Gurner - Setting High Standards, Being Relentlessly Resourceful, Achieving Huge Results (Compared to Wendy Rhoades of "Billions")

Starting point is 00:00:00 It's not just about the learning, but the fact that people who can adapt win the day over and over again. And you can't adapt if you aren't at cusp of what you do. You're not in the position to adapt because you're still 10 years behind. Welcome to The Learning Leaders Show, presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text Hawk to 666-866 to become part of. Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the

Starting point is 00:00:39 world, will receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right. You'll also receive details about how my book, The Pursuit of Excellence will help you become a more effective leader. Text, Hawk to 66866. Now, on to tonight's featured leader, the great Dr. Julie Gerner. She's an executive performance coach. She's a She's a doctor of psychology. She's been compared to Wendy Rhodes of the hit TV show Billions by the Wall Street Journal. She is the author of the Substact newsletter called Ultra Successful. She's a fascinating person to speak with during this conversation we discuss the makeup

Starting point is 00:01:21 of an excellent executive coach and why it would benefit you to have one. Then the one commonality she's found among all of the world's most effective leaders that she's worked with. And then Julie talks about how you are probably thinking too small and how you can think bigger and accomplish more. Ladies and gentlemen, this one is so good. You're going to love it. It's Dr. Julie Gurner. Dr. Julie Gurner, it is great to have you here on the Learning Leader Show. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to see you. I saw that you recently posted a picture. And in this picture, there were a couple horses, there were stable, and you wrote that it's nice to have a daily walk around the property to do some thinking and that you

Starting point is 00:02:13 hope that everybody can find something to work for, strive toward, and one day call their own. Can you talk to me about the importance of that daily walk around and that time for you to think and reflect? Sure. I think that it's funny that you mentioned the farm. I recently bought a farm in 2022 and I grew up on a farm. So the interesting thing about that to me, and I'll tell you how the walk kind of plays into this, is that I grew up on a farm. The farm was far different. It was a very small self-sustaining farm. I didn't grow up with much money. It's a very different farm that I have today, which is much more extensive and estate-like. And I hope to build into a future Martha Stewart-type property. So for me, taking a stroll around the farm is really about a number of things for me personally, as well as the work that I do. So I find that a walk every day, I take it at some point, whether it's around the property or on a trail

Starting point is 00:03:09 somewhere, is really how I piece together my thoughts around client work, where I'm at, my own business. I don't bring, usually I don't bring a phone. I did that day. But usually I leave everything at home so that it's a place I can synthesize information, really think about my own journey sometimes. You look around and you say, oh, my God, how far. have come and how much I've been able to accomplish in not really having a lot of advantage and

Starting point is 00:03:40 kind of coming from a place where people would not anticipate you would reach where you're at today. And I used the time outside to both kind of be pretty invigorating but also constructive where you're putting together for me. I do a lot of theory putting together a lot of structure around my meetings. I don't just sit with people and spontaneously come up with what we're doing that day, I have a plan in place from day one where I'm helping people get to where they want to go. And that requires both thoughtful deliberation on that strategy and process, but also thinking deeply about who they are and what's the best path forward in for them. So that's kind of what I use that time for.

Starting point is 00:04:23 It's a lot of construction for others, a lot of self reflection and kind of putting all of these things together to come up with my best work and my best process forward. Are you always alone or do you ever go with others? I'm always alone when I do that type of work. But sometimes like after dinner I'll go for a walk with my spouse and it's a very different phenomena where we're just kind of talking about our days and other things. But the walk that I go on alone is often midday. It's by myself.

Starting point is 00:04:50 Sometimes I bring a phone but I rarely do. And it's just about my own thought process and putting things together. When working with clients, is this something you regularly would prescribe to them, go out on walks in nature, or get outside, spend time reflecting in silence without technology? I think that spending some time, however you spend it best, putting together strategy, is incredibly important. But I think that everyone can do that in their own way. Probably the wealthiest gentleman that I've worked with, he was in New York City,

Starting point is 00:05:23 and he would, every morning, he would leave his place and go for, grab a cup of coffee and go for a walk around the city for 40 minutes. And that's just kind of what he did. And I realized that as much as we like to prescribe habits and we say, all right, this is to be successful, you have to do X, Y, and Z in your morning routine or what have you. What I've found is that people who are incredibly successful find their own ways of having those points of reflection, but they almost always have them, right? Whether there's someone who is, they take a walk, whether there's somebody who goes to their

Starting point is 00:05:57 library and does some reading or reflecting or thinking. You have to create space for great things to happen. You can't fit it in between meetings, right? In like the five minutes between meetings, you're going to think about how you're going to grow your business. We confuse oftentimes busy with important and the things that matter most. And your calendar should really reflect those, the real priorities that you have. You've been compared to one of my all-time favorite TV characters, Wendy Rhodes of the TV show Billions. Wall Street Journal wrote an article about this. I just read it again this morning.

Starting point is 00:06:32 I had Brian Copplement on this podcast. I actually met with him in New York City and recorded that one in person. He created the TV show Billions. And we talked a lot about the Wendy Rhodes character. And I know Brian's been impacted by Tony Robbins and others like him. And maybe Wendy was built as a character

Starting point is 00:06:48 off of him and others. And so if you haven't seen Billions, you don't know who she is. But one, I think it's a great show. And I think Wendy is an amazing. character on it. How did that feel to be compared to her and how is the work that you do similar to what she does on that show? So what's interesting about that is I always suspect that there's a former client that somehow made that comparison happen somehow in the backdrop with the Wall Street

Starting point is 00:07:12 Journal. But I think that the comparison is a decent one in some ways and a very character-driven one and others. Right. So I think that the solid comparison point is that you have a very intimate and close relationship with the people that you work with, you understand them deeply, you understand what motivates them, what drives them, and where their weak spots are. And those are sometimes deep character, personality, and other flaws that we all carry. I think that the area where it kind of varies from what you should expect or what would be normal is that the foundation of my work is to be very ethical. And you will find that sometimes those ethics are a little shaky on a television show and

Starting point is 00:07:53 and certainly changed for dramatic purposes. But do, I think that in the big decisions and the big moments, you're really relied on as being an important sounding board as well as someone who gives very direct and candid feedback. And that's something that I'm very proud to do. You have a very impactful position. It's something that is deeply, people deeply trust you and you want to be there for those important moments. And people do call you for those, right? They have a negotiation. They have something that's going on. They're thinking about making a large acquisition or something like that. And oftentimes people will consult you around that and have somebody who kind of understands them deeply, who's very objective, who has no skin in the game as to whether this moves forward in one direction or

Starting point is 00:08:38 another, is not going to be somebody who's going to be in their circle who won't say no to them or give them pushback. People in certain powerful positions often don't have someone around them who really shoot straight with them. And I think they rely on that to make the best decisions they're going to make. So I think that in some ways it's very similar and in some ways not. And you really do use your psychological background. Wendy, the character is a psychiatrist by training. I'm a doctor of psychology by training. And so you do really use that in the work that you do because it's ultimately about understanding to the best of your ability and to the best that the field allows how human beings function at their best and what are the things that we should be

Starting point is 00:09:21 looking out for. And I want that to be the cornerstone of the work that I do and bringing that to the table in a unique way that leverages both all the research we have in the archives around psychology and human functioning, but also understanding deeply business and how it functions and what it demands and the pressures it puts on people to guide to kind of sway them in one direction or another and trying to find the best path forward for this particular individual person and helping them find that path, understanding both of those fears. I am really interested in the profession of executive coaching. Every once in a while, a longtime listener of this podcast will ask me to play that role.

Starting point is 00:10:05 And usually I'd say I'm more comfortable being kind of an advisor, less of a coach. And one of my clients has renamed our relationship saying, you are now my name. number one lifting partner. So a lifting partner in the gym is not the trainer. You're actually doing the same things together, but you can be sounding boards for one another. We can switch roles from time and time where you're doing the work and the other one's watching and vice versa. And you have good conversations in between the sets and then afterwards maybe you sit down and you rehash what's going on. And I found that leadership for a lot of these senior leaders, It's very lonely.

Starting point is 00:10:42 They don't always have the person within the company that they feel comfortable to share their deepest, darkest secrets and thoughts. And so they need somebody external and they want a good listener. And so I'm curious, this is the primary thing that you do. What makes up an awesome executive coach and how have you gotten so good at it? That's a really good question and thank you for saying that. I think executive coaches are sometimes as unique. useful as their area of expertise. There are some people who have and carry an expertise that I don't.

Starting point is 00:11:16 I'm not going to be somebody who advises on company construction. I'm not going to be someone who advises on co-founder relationships. I'm probably not going to be the person who advises on, I mean, these are teams and how they work together. These are all areas that I may advise out. Or if I have, I work in them very, if there's an issue, I'll deal with it in the context of the individual that I work with, but I'm probably not going to be engaged for those things. I think understanding if you're looking for an executive coach, what do you need them for and finding somebody who does that particular job to the highest caliber of their field? That's what I think of when I think of a really solid executive coach. And for me, my sweet spot is really understanding, I assume that the

Starting point is 00:12:06 people I work with are the best at what they do in their business. I am not going to tell somebody who is in an industrial role how to be better at it or somebody who's in a trading role, how to be better at it, or any of those types of things. You're a CEO of a SaaS company. I am not going to tell you how to run a SaaS company. You probably know that far better than I do. But what I will be able to spot almost immediately is if you tell me kind of where you want to be and where you are and that you're struggling in some or that you're not sure really how to navigate to that point. It is never the skills at the level that I operate on, it is never the skills holding someone back. It is always themselves.

Starting point is 00:12:49 And who understands people better than anyone? And so I try to look at, look, my expertise is understanding individuals, how they operate in high stress, highly competitive, sometimes global environments. what are the things that challenge them? What are the things that hold them back? What are the areas where I can kind of release and help let them go? So that's really my sweet spot. The person who knows, every person that comes to me knows that they're more capable than where they are right now. And they don't get a lot of empathy for that because where they are right now may be running a $300 million dollar a year business, a billion dollar of your business, but they say, look, I know I'm capable of more. I have no

Starting point is 00:13:32 idea why I'm not there. They have all the skills in the world. I'm not going to teach them anything new there. So there's something about them that is preventing them from doing the things they need to do to get there. And it is my job to help them bridge that gap and get where they want to go. So it feels like you help unlock people. Is that an appropriate term? I think that is absolutely the most appropriate term. How does that process work? So that's a really, that's a tough question. right? Because it's individual for each person. And for me, it's understanding how people function best. What are their strengths? Where are they excellent and world-class and above everyone else? What are the things that they really struggle with? And always almost shaping their environment as well as themselves to sit in that area all day long if they can. And if they can do that, they increase in not just confidence, but ability.

Starting point is 00:14:38 So what I mean by that is a lot of times people carry, maybe they're working in 30%, 20%, 30% if they're lucky, of the areas where they are excellent. They are phenomenal. And they know they are if we can get them to be honest about it. But 70% is really, they're average, they're above average. They feel capable. And those are areas where, while it's nice to, kind of move the business ahead, you're not actively doing the things that make you a multiplier.

Starting point is 00:15:07 And I want people not just to be workers, but multipliers. That's where things push forward and trying to reset what is in their scope of work. Where are they really fantastic? Where are they capable of pushing progress? What are the things that they really want to achieve and starting to shape their world, shape them, draw some really hard lines, and put them into a seat of being a multiplier of their business. And that's where they find, too, they start doing it. They find deep satisfaction. They keep doing it. They recognize what they should be not just focusing in on, but what they should be keeping away from them. And I think those are both really important elements of driving forward. Something you've written is about people who stay small. You said a concept, I believe,

Starting point is 00:15:54 is that most people stay small or don't go for what they truly want because they believe that, quote, imaginary rules are true. Can you expand on that? What are these imaginary rules and why do people stay small? Sure. Imaginary rules are something I believe that we learn as we, from when we're very young, right? We learn rules that are very good rules for us to know. Social mores, how to not be arrested, how to be kind to others and polite and engage in conversation and all of those things. But in this path, we're also learning from usually the echo chambers and ecosystem were involved in. We're learning we ingest these little things about what's possible for us, what people around us achieve, what wealth looks like, what we should be pushing for,

Starting point is 00:16:42 what we should not be pushing for, what is selfish, what is greedy, what is what we shouldn't be thinking about, what we should be thinking about, what's valuable, what's not valuable, etc. So we're ingesting that stuff. And it's those are the things we don't really talk about. We just kind of carry them with us. So then as we begin to kind of move about our life, I mean, I don't know about you, but when you were a child, who did you think a wealthy person was? And if you think about that, like the image of that wealthy person when you were a teenager has probably shifted dramatically to what real wealth looks like today. And if you stay in that definition, man, you would limit yourself so very much. If you stay within, like, you think it's greedy to want to

Starting point is 00:17:27 have money, for example, and people will even say online, and I'll hear it on Twitter, oh, don't chase money, money's not the goal. And then you start to see others talk about cashing out and what they've done with that and the good things that they've done. And it's not really about buying a Lamborghini. Having money is about increasing your choices in life and improving the quality of your life about not worrying about a health event if you're in America. It really does, following imaginary rules about what you're capable with. People will always stay within the confines of what they believe they are capable of doing. And once you begin to shift that, and that's why you see sometimes, you'll see people who achieve great things and go, oh, they're so full of

Starting point is 00:18:10 themselves. If they didn't have an incredible level of self-belief, would you ever start a rocket company? Would you even think you are capable of doing those things? So I think that there are a lot more people who have that possibility in the tank and will never take the chance. And instead, they're the guy who maybe is doing your taxes. And maybe that guy is capable of so much more than doing taxes. And maybe he's dreamt about it at some point, but he felt like, oh, only a certain type of person can do this type of work. And a lot of those things, I think, are. are just inherently untrue. And we see it proven over and over and over again.

Starting point is 00:18:51 There's nothing special about sometimes the people who do great things in the way that there aren't special people out there who are probably a lot smaller than they could be and operating at just a fraction of their capacity. It makes me think of the Steve Jobs quote. I'll paraphrase it, but Pat McAvey shared it when he was on this podcast. It was basically, if you look around, everything that was created in the world was done by people who are no smarter or wiser than you. Basically, we all have the chance.

Starting point is 00:19:20 We all can do it. Don't put yourself in the box. Don't think, well, that's for those other people who are smarter than me. I had those thoughts. I remember before publishing my first book, who the hell am I to think that I can publish a book? Right. And then you have to push past that and realize that you have a chance to change people's

Starting point is 00:19:38 lives for the better and to push away any of those potential fears or imposter syndrome like feelings to say no i think i got i think i have a chance to really impact people and that's part of my purpose of being here so let's go like let's go let's get to work and and in that thinking of imposter syndrome which is a phrase that is probably overused by now but it's still i still get asked this from people usually it's someone who's like newly promoted and maybe they feel like quietly quietly they say i don't know kind of surprised they picked me and they put themselves in this limiting box and I'm saying, no, they picked you for a reason. They picked you for a specific reason now. We know why and then we kind of go through it. What do you say to that person who is

Starting point is 00:20:22 quietly talking about feeling as an imposter? I think we have to understand what an imposter actually is. When we talk about the great imposter, the imposter is the person who actually knows nothing and is pretending that they do. And if you really kind of reduce it down, I usually have people like, let's just look at the facts. Like, are you someone who's just pretending to know about marketing and you're a CMO? Or do you actually kind of, does your history indicate something about marketing? Right. I think that just giving ourselves that label oftentimes, like, oh, I feel like an imposter or I feel these other things, we're starting to label our experiences in ways that don't work for us. If we look at the evidence, and I try to be a very cognitive, very rational, logical person,

Starting point is 00:21:06 we start to see that if we look at your history, it's not like you came out of high school, were kind of serving coffee and then someone made you CMO. That's not the progress. It's, it's that you usually put in your time, you paid your dues, you did your, you kind of refined your craft, and now you're being rewarded for that history and that expertise in ways that is surprising to you, but it's probably not out of the realm of your skill set. And if we can get someone to that point, they start to go, oh yeah, I actually do know things about marketing. I'm actually pretty capable. And I asked them, have you ever critiqued other people? marketing work when you've been maybe not yet CMO? Oh, yeah, I have. I've said, oh, that was a

Starting point is 00:21:45 terrible move. Well, what authority did you have to make that call? Well, I knew that if you run it this way, this is what is probably going to happen. So you have them really demonstrate over and over again that they have expertise or ability in that area, and you refocus how and kind of rewrite how they see their own story. I think it's incredibly important that people write stories about their own possibility in ways that serve them. Because I think that's often telling a much more accurate tale, and it is much more empowering. We can see the world through ways which it make us better

Starting point is 00:22:22 and empower us to take chances, or we can see the world in a much more like hesitant, kind of scary place. And if you're seeing the world in a way that prevents risk, again, that's one of those imaginary rules that you keep, you hold yourself back because you go, oh, well, somebody else is really capable of taking this risk, not me. It's incredible. You talk to people who have done, who have periods of incredible success or who have done incredible things.

Starting point is 00:22:50 And what you see is they just keep taking the chances and they find that they're able to meet the moment. They sometimes they surprise themselves, right? I mean, I don't know that every person who ends up the winner of Wimbledon says, oh, I knew the moment I stepped on the grass, the court that I was going to be the winner of Wimbledon. But they see. start proving to themselves over and over again that their own capacity, their own ability, their own expertise and prowess. And it's really no different when you start to look at people in business as they scale and move up the ranks. Is that an exercise you actually do getting back to writing their own story? Do you have them write this down or let's get practical for a second?

Starting point is 00:23:28 What is a way that you help them write this story? Is this a physical exercise you do? Usually not. I mean, I have done it in the past with some folks. But, I'll ask them to like, well, let's talk about, I try to tap into areas, for example, if someone's hesitant to take a certain risk, but they know that it's the right risk to take. So we'll start with that. I'll say, tell me about times you've taken risk in the past where you felt similarly, right? So they'll say, oh, I've done this, I've done that. And they'll tell me about their wins. They'll tell me about the moments they were uncertain, but they knew in their gut it was right, and it was the right call. And so once you kind of begin to reflect on history,

Starting point is 00:24:07 and look at when I knew in my gut it was right and I took the chance, it paid off. And we start to see it once, twice, three times. Well, now it's kind of looking silly that you're in exactly the same space. You have exactly the same gut feeling and you're still feeling a little uncertain. What does that signal to you? And usually people are like, yeah, you're right. I didn't think about it that way. We reflect when we're uncertain. Oftentimes we're looking to validate the uncertainty instead of looking to validate the risk. And so because fear holds a lot more detriment to our future in our own mind's eye than looking through a better lens.

Starting point is 00:24:48 So I'm intentionally trying to shift that lens into something that's going to be productive, but also accurate for them. I'm not blown smoke. I'm not like if they said, hey, every time I felt this way and I took the risk, it failed, I wouldn't be saying, oh, but you should do it this time. Like that would not be my position. But I do try to look for instead of through the lens of hesitation and fear and confirming that, I look to confirm other things that may be equally or more accurate and help them to see their

Starting point is 00:25:16 own history and potential in a different way. One of the questions I like to ask is about commonalities of leaders who sustain excellence over time. And you're a perfect person to ask about this. But you've actually written about it. And so I want to service it and pull on this thread. And one of the phrases you used that you borrowed from Paul Graham, who writes amazing essays, which I recommend many times before, is that these people are, quote, relentlessly resourceful. What does it mean to be relentlessly resourceful?

Starting point is 00:25:49 To me, it begins in the self, right? There is a self-belief that is fairly unshakable. So you have a self-belief that digs deep and knows that it is possible. that's where relentlessly resourceful begins because that this is possible. So now it's just about finding a way. And you are somebody who is going to find a way, regardless of kind of what that, the obstacles that lie ahead. And that may be very unconventional. You may have to think a little bit differently than others, but you will find, if not the front door, the side door, you will find a way to get where you want to go. You will do things that are oftentimes pretty audacious.

Starting point is 00:26:30 you will do things that others may not think about. But resourcefulness and finding that way stems from a deep belief that you are the person who is capable of doing it. And that's to me, that is what lies like underneath a lot of these traits that we define great leaders having or great CEOs having. Underneath those traits of resourcefulness and self-learning and being proactive and all of these types of things, there are layers under it of the person that feels that they are capable, that it is possible, and that it is something that they can do.

Starting point is 00:27:09 If you don't have that sense of internal control, that I have the capacity to move my world, that I have the capacity to shape my ending, or shape profits, or shape the company trajectory, if you don't have that belief, you aren't going to act in accordance with any of those principles. So a lot of times when you see some of those things a little shaky, it isn't that they are incapable of being proactive. It's, okay, well, what is the thing kind of holding that back? What is the thing that needs to be kind of released here? And being able to say, does something need to be built? Does it need to be released? One of the most impactful courses, as I was going through graduate school many, many years ago, was with a guy named Jeffrey Magnavita.

Starting point is 00:27:56 And he's nobody ever, no one knows who he is or what he does. But he wrote a book that is probably the best in the field. And it's something about restructuring personality. It's meant to deal with disorders. But one of the things that I learned very clearly from him in restructuring personality disorders or personality generally is that you can be, you can actually take parts of people's personality, deconstruct it a bit, reconstruct it, and make it more functional, capable, and strong. And while we often think about that in terms of pathology, when you look at someone who's healthy and functioning and they have this little blip,

Starting point is 00:28:35 you can dig into that surgically and really kind of deconstruct it, reconstruct it, make it more functional, and push it forward. And it's not about pathology at all. about optimization. And so that is why I think you asked a question earlier, kind of why I'm good at what I do and why I get the results I do. And I think it's because there are stacks of information just sitting in archives around how we function psychologically. And it is all geared toward people who are ill, not recognizing that the healthy people that sit amongst us have little quirks and tweaks that we can make and things that we can do to optimize ourselves. But because

Starting point is 00:29:16 it doesn't ever fall in the realm of pathology or it doesn't kind of hinder us from functioning or create any kind of disability, we just stopped looking at all of the information we already have about how humans function at their best. And I try to tap into that. And it's why I have a ritual of myself reading research for an hour every day to make sure that I'm always on top of what people are discovering whether it's about my field in executive coaching or performance coaching or it's about actually psychology and the science of how humans function best. Speaking of that being a learner, you've written that the worst professionals are the ones that stop learning the moment they graduate from school. And unfortunately, or I don't know,

Starting point is 00:30:03 they are the majority. You write being autodidactic, a self-learner who also takes initiative will have you in the top 10% of anything you take on. So obviously something you live out. You just mentioned it. And if you listen to a podcast like this, it's called The Learning Leader Show, you're probably into this already. But let's go a little bit deeper as to why it's so important to be a learner. And I think to go to bed, as Charlie Munger might say,

Starting point is 00:30:31 a little bit wiser each night than when you woke up in the morning. I think that it's a real differentiator between people who are going, at what they do and people who are not. I don't know about you, but when you go out into the world, you're going to meet a number of professionals just living your life. You're going to meet the person who works at the grocery store. You're going to meet the person who maybe serves you coffee. You're going to meet the person who is your attorney, a person maybe like me that you work with, your coworkers, your boss. Maybe you are the boss and you have other people around you who are executives. And with each one of them, you can probably say to yourself, who is always

Starting point is 00:31:06 running to be better every single day. And when you meet a capable person, you see it all the time. Like, you will meet someone at the grocery store who you say to yourself, wow, that person is phenomenal at what they do. They're great at customer service. They are always on, they know where everything is. They are incredibly helpful. They know how to do X, Y, and Z in their particular role or job. I think that's true when you look at the executives who may work for you or your peers. You can see immediately. Who is the person who's on top of the latest, when you're talking about marketing, for example, who's the latest kind of marketing methods and techniques and where they're advertising and where they're going? Who is the person who still doesn't know what AI is?

Starting point is 00:31:48 Who is the person who is kind of not keeping up with how the world is moving? Because at the end of the day, it's not just about the learning, but the fact that people who are, who can adapt, win the day over and over again. And you can't adapt if you aren't at the cusp of what you do. You're not in the position to adapt because you're still 10 years behind. You're not certainly at the present moment and you're not going to meet the moment as it turns the corner. You want to always be like if somebody were to say to me, being at the cusp of your field isn't important. I don't know how you transition into a new world if you're not pushing at the edges of the old. It would be very, very challenging. And so you always want to be that person

Starting point is 00:32:36 who can reliably be at the forefront of what you do so that when the market shifts and the economy changes, those pivots aren't as hard for you. But if you're somebody who wasn't really meeting the moment, the pivots that you need to make are going to be hard. I mean, think about with COVID, people had to transition immediately to doing things online. If you couldn't use a computer properly, if you weren't up to date on technology, I mean, these are really simple things, but there were so many companies that struggled. I remember, and not to throw my own health care under the bus, but at some point they were using, I had to meet with my primary care doctor and the struggles that they had around, not my doctor themselves, but the practice around just having an online

Starting point is 00:33:21 meeting was shocking. And I thought to myself, how is it that we are all living in this world together and that this simple transition was so challenging? So we see it across the board. And I think we all recognize professionals who are wonderful at what they do, and those people are rare indeed as we move about the world. You seem like a person who has very high standards, and I love being around people like that. You wrote about this, and you said holding a high bar is uncomfortable because it is exclusionary, and most people want to make everyone around them happy and comfortable. But if you hold a standard, it can't include everything. Figuring out your line and holding to it will mean some tough conversations. And for the leaders who are like, again, listen to something like this and certainly for myself, this is hard at times, right?

Starting point is 00:34:19 Yeah. But I believe it's worth it. So how do you work with leaders who don't like the feeling of being exclusionary but also have high standards and want to hold the line? So how I deal with this is I don't make it personal. I say, let's make those standards numerical. Let's make them metrics. Let's make them frameworks. Because the people who can't meet them, that will be on them to carry.

Starting point is 00:34:44 Right. I mean, and the people who will meet them will show themselves meeting the mark and meeting the line. So I try to really pull it out of being something personal. I don't want this to be personal. I want this to be a standard that you hold that is very, I mean, it can be personal in other areas of your life. But at work and in business, it can be particular goals you've set, particular types of metrics you need to hit, and making sure that everybody is aware, that everybody is well communicated, that you are there as a resource or an unblocker if they need it. And then you kind of let them go and see what happens. And sometimes what you find is that the people who you like very much personally are not the people who perform best within your organization.

Starting point is 00:35:26 Maybe you have a great friend and they're the nicest person around, but man, they are like at 70%. And it doesn't mean that you have to hire talented jerks. It just means that sometimes the people who are going to be your top performers won't always be the people that you have the most in common with or that you want to grab lunch with. And that's okay. You're all pushing together toward a goal. Hiring people that can meet the mark are incredibly important. And it doesn't mean they can't also be friendly with you. you or someone that you like a lot. But sometimes it does mean you have to get rid of people

Starting point is 00:36:01 who can't meet your company's growth. And as your company grows, the kinds of people that sometimes you need to be around will change that you may grow through company growth and you have to grow through company growth if you're a leader. But not everyone's going to be able to go on that journey. Sometimes they're right for the moment and they're perfect for the stage of the company that they're at. And then at the next phase of the company, they're just not the right person. They just can't meet that particular moment. And that's okay. Keeping them in that particular place where they're underperforming and uncomfortable

Starting point is 00:36:33 is actually not an act of kindness on your part. Like they should be in a place where they're happy. They come to work. They feel successful. They like what they're doing. And they feel like they are at a place that fits them. And if you're putting someone who's underperforming in an environment where their peers are all doing well, not only are you discouraging the peers who are doing well,

Starting point is 00:36:55 because A players in that environment don't want to work with people who are struggling. And if they see an environment that's supporting underperformance, they probably aren't going to stick around all that long. So you don't want to chase away the people who are doing great stuff. At the same time, the person who isn't working out is not done any service by keeping them. So you want them to win. Give them a great reference if they actually have been able to help the company to a certain extent. But they may not be the person that's fit for purpose as you move.

Starting point is 00:37:25 of ahead, your teams will change over, people will change over. Not everyone can go the entire way on the journey, and that's okay. Let's talk about balance. Big word that is used, work-life balance sometimes is used. Before I get into the question I was going to ask, how balanced are you in your life? I have periods of imbalance that I'm okay to admit, and I think that everything great comes from those periods, so I'm all right with it. Like when you're first involved in anything phenomenal that you want to build, whether it's in your

Starting point is 00:37:58 personal life or in business, it's going to be all consumptive. And I think that's a good thing. I'm not somebody who's going to advise against that. So if you're someone who is launching a new product, if you're somebody who's starting something at your work that you're just beginning a company, if you're somebody who's just dating the person that you want to marry, it's going to consume your thoughts. it's going to consume who you are. It's going to excite you. It's going to make it hard to sleep at night. And that is, it's kind of a beautiful energy that I don't want to suppress. I think it's great. Now, if you are in your company and that is your entire life, that's going to be a challenge, right? I think that obsession is a part of building great things. There is nobody who I know, at least,

Starting point is 00:38:42 and maybe you have other ideas in mind, but there's no one I can think about who's built anything great that hasn't had periods of obsession, intensity, and just complete immersion. Where people can sometimes take it too far is that sometimes after the initial building, it doesn't require that anymore in order to be great. It requires your input. It requires your focus. It requires your engagement and involvement. But it doesn't require you being on the phone until midnight every night or on your computer.

Starting point is 00:39:11 It doesn't require you never turning off or never having a day out or never doing those things or never exercising, like if we can be candid. So I do think that every great thing in life is kind of the birthing of it is usually a period of intensity and imbalance and immersion. And I think it's a wonderful thing, but I don't think that that is sustainable and can't be sustainable for the long run if you're going to build something great over time. I love that distinction there because it is so true when I think about the greatest moments, the greatest achievements, usually. were preceded by times of imbalance in my life and then when you study others, their lives as well.

Starting point is 00:39:54 But you're also correct in that. That can't be every day forever. You probably will flame out and not be able to consistently show up and do excellent work. I think it's also about doing your best work. At first, when you are immersed, usually especially when you're building something new, you are involved and you have your hands in everything. You're not just the idea person, the decision maker. you're also the creator, you're doing 3,000 jobs. And if you're not pulling out of that at some

Starting point is 00:40:23 point, you're actually not able to scale. When you look at people like Musk, people will say, oh, the guy he runs a million companies and they're all very high performing. That's true. But if you look at SpaceX, he's put a phenomenal CEO in place or president in place. I think Gwyneth Shotwell, who is phenomenal at what she does. And he allows her to do that. And he still makes some of the highest decisions in the company. But he has, someone doing the operational stuff on the ground. And this is often how people are scaling. You look at Jeff Bezos, he at one point is obsessed in doing all the work. He starts pulling out further and further. At one point, I remember him speaking on, I think it's David Rubinstein's show. And he said,

Starting point is 00:41:04 my highest and best use is that I make two to three high caliber decisions every day. If I do that well, I've done my job. So they start pulling into these positions where you're making the most important, impactful calls in the business, but you're no longer kind of in the pudding every day. And I think if you are, you're going to keep your business really small. You have to be able to scale. And scale requires you not being in every part of it. So I think people get excited and they can kind of have a lot of control around what they're creating. But your goal really should be, as your company is growing, that you're pulling further and further and further away and much more in a refined place of your best use. And so if you're able to do that and just operate from your place of highest and best

Starting point is 00:41:52 use, you have other people doing the same and the company can really kind of row together to a much higher place than if you're immersed in it all the time. Speaking of building something big, you've written that if your goals are realistic, you are operating in a box. You need to check yourself. And so whether you're trying to build a company or trying to build yourself, it feels as if you feel that we don't, you feel that we don't set ambitious enough goals. How do you view goal setting? What's the proper way to do it so that we can sustain excellence over time? Sure. I think that when we typically in business, we say if you hit 70% of your OKRs or what have you, that you've done a good job.

Starting point is 00:42:34 And we consider that usually a tick of good work. And I think that that's okay. I think that that supports a very kind of mediocre way of doing business. I think a lot of business is built on maintenance, right? Maintaining and making sure that we continue to grow at a 15% rate or we continue to grow, whatever rate. But what I've noticed is that when people are very ambitious and they're able to do larger things, if that is your goal, right? So maybe your goal is to be in maintenance mode and maybe this would not apply to you, if you were to challenge yourself and you had to hit a 30% growth three, what would you do? Go through a thought exercise. Whatever that ambitious, like really ambitious goal would be, if somebody said, look, I'm going to hold you to the fire. You have to grow at 30% next year.

Starting point is 00:43:23 What could you do? Just like, let's drop all realistic or unrealistic or what is proper, what is not, what we have staffed, what we don't? What would you do for this business to make it grow at this particular rate. What I find is almost everybody has ideas. Everybody has ideas. They say, oh, well, we'd reach out to whatever for a partnership, but we're not ready for that yet. Or we would do this, but I think we have to really build the infrastructure here first. Or we could really approach why, but I really want to make sure we have our ducks in a row, right? Everybody has ideas. If you push them and you say, let's really push growth this year, what would it be in an ideal world? Where would you like to be? Everybody has ideas locked and loaded.

Starting point is 00:44:06 but those ideas will sit on the shelf sometimes for years. And then they'll be getting things ready and getting things prepared. And the most heartbreaking thing is to have somebody who has an idea that is sitting on the shelf and then they watch somebody else go out and do it, who is less prepared, who is probably less accomplished, who has less of a background. And then they feel like a chump. I mean, they feel like it's heartbreaking. And I think in some ways it really reduces confidence.

Starting point is 00:44:36 confidence, like, oh, I had this idea. Why was I waiting? What's going on with my judgment? So I I really do push people to begin to ideate in ways that challenge them first and to say, and then begin to kind of jump in on those ideas. So again, I can't create those ideas for you, what you need to do. If I were to ask you today, hey, if you wanted to grow this podcast and really do something to like blow it up even further than what it is, I am betting that you also have ideas locked and loaded. But what prevents you from taking it? Is it time? Is it feeling like you need something on the back end? Is it all of those other things? And there are things that are kind of, whether they are true or not true, you could go through each one of those ideas and begin to vet them

Starting point is 00:45:21 and say, well, why not? Why am I not doing this? And is it an actual, like a good reason, or is it not a good reason, even by your own standards? And trying to say, well, is it formed enough that you could make motion. So I do think that there's ways of kind of challenging yourself and anybody out there could do it. So I think that's a framework I would start thinking about with goal setting is, okay, you've set your goals. Now if I asked you to add 30 percent or 40 percent, but let's go with 30. Let's be conservative and say, let's add 30 percent to those. What could you really do if you wanted to hit that goal and be as audacious as possible to try to run at it? And now let's try to rule out why some of those things can't happen and why they could. And let's start to put some of those in motion.

Starting point is 00:46:06 You shared so much good stuff and proven why the best of the best hire you to be their executive coach. Who coaches you? Who helps you? Who listens to you vent? Who is your sounding more? How does that work for you? That's a great question. And honestly, I don't really have anyone that serves that purpose. I would love to find that person. So if anybody's out there, but I do a lot of writing. I do a lot of thinking. I do a lot of challenging myself. That is probably the best that I've got right now. But it is important to have thought partners. I often bounce things off of my spouse, like ideas that I have and things like that. My spouse is recently a CEO of a company in New York City. And so I do have ways of bouncing ideas off of some folks. But as far as my own personal internal

Starting point is 00:46:54 work, I talk to a lot of these people who are doing big things. And I challenge myself regularly. to say, okay, what are bigger things that I should be doing, that I should be thinking about, that I should be expanding into. And I do a lot of listening online too. I know that I do a lot of talking online, so it may not always seem that way on Twitter, but I do a lot of listening also. So when I hear people who are having the same challenges, who have the same insights, like right now I have people who are on a wait list, and that wait list is at this point a couple of years long. So how can I get more information to people? Clearly there's a need for that. It's what led me to start the ultra-successful newsletter on Substack is that I'm trying to be a good listener. I'm trying to

Starting point is 00:47:37 kind of put content out there in ways that are accessible to people no matter where they're at, no matter who they are, no matter what stage they're at, so that they can continue to challenge themselves. And it's something that I try to do regularly by listening as well as by talking about things at home. And certainly, I think it would be beneficial for me to have a partner to chat with from time to time to even challenge myself and to get an outside perspective. By listening, do you mean you're fueling your intake engine with information, reading books, articles, research, listening to podcasts? What do you mean by listening? Or listening to your clients, because you're working with very bright people. What do you mean by that?

Starting point is 00:48:14 So I listen online when I'm having conversations on Twitter as to what people need and want. I'm listening through reading when I do have the opportunity to read things outside of journals and articles and research. That's the primary amount of my reading is through those. I guess people would call them boring things, but to me, I'm forming hypotheses all the time. Like, how could I apply this to this group? How could I reuse this information in this way? And I also give myself a lot of space. So I will take time in my schedule to be able to say, okay, this is my, I tell my clients that they should always have a strategy time to create white space.

Starting point is 00:48:49 as we started this conversation with, where you should have moments of thinking. You should have moments of putting things together. But you should also have really critical moments of self-examination, not that are punitive towards yourself or negative, but that push you, right? Am I too comfortable? Should I be doing more? Do I have the capacity to become more resource, like give more resources to more people? Is there a way to uplift kind of more boats? For me, my mission really, is being able to peel back the layers to show people what they are capable of at the end of the day. Because I think that a lot of times the narrative is you have to come from a certain background or a certain education or certain, I don't know, environment to be able to do great things

Starting point is 00:49:37 or to create a life that is spectacular to you, whatever that life looks like, right? And I think that if I can democratize information from some of the, most successful people on earth, whether they're athletes leading a billion dollar company or just successful executives out there and bring that information to people who are just starting out, people who are midway in their journey, or even people who run pretty successful companies, but want to really scale. You're running a $30 million company, but you want to hit a billion. If I can bring this information to people, I feel like I've done my work. And in the meantime, I get to be in the backdrop of some of these really great conversations. And,

Starting point is 00:50:19 and be a part of some really amazing things happening in the world around us. With all the impressive people you work with, and I get to talk to a lot of the types of people on this show, I find that they're unique. They sometimes have these weird quirks or habits that I'm just fascinated with. Maybe I'm weird. What's an example or two? I'm curious,

Starting point is 00:50:42 if you found like a weird quirk or habit from a high performer that you've worked with? There are many that I hear. And there actually points that we kind of joke about because it's we all carry these kind of silly things that we do. But yeah, it's a part of the reason why I brought that up is because there's something you did before we even connected that I, that I love. And I actually think is quite important. I said, do you want to do this podcast at 10 o'clock? And you wrote me back and said, I'd prefer to start at 10.05 because I have a meeting that goes till 10. And I don't want to be late.

Starting point is 00:51:15 And I immediately said, yes, this is the way. to be because most people, Julie, would just scheduled at 10 and then they would show up two minutes late because they're meeting ended at 10. They maybe have used a bathroom, whatever, and they need that time. And you were specific and said, no, we're going to start at 10.05 because I don't want to be late. And then you still showed up at 10.03. And to me, those little things speak volumes about a person and the way they operate and how they have respect for others and their time. And I don't think, I think we should make light of little details like that because they speak volumes about you as a person and your character. And I wanted to highlight it because I greatly appreciate it and think these little things

Starting point is 00:51:59 are stuff we all should think about. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And I didn't expect you to bring that up today. But yes, I do appreciate your time. I value your time. And you are good at what you do. And so you deserve all the respect in the world and to be not the professional who is waiting for somebody else to arrive as if I am Madonna or somebody that like, please wait for me. I'm all so important. I think that you are providing a framework for me to continue to talk about some of these important things. You provide a service to people outside of yourself.

Starting point is 00:52:34 You do something very important and you do important work, bringing knowledge to so many people. So absolutely, your time matters and it matters to me. And I feel like that is true for everyone. And I wish that everybody operated in that framework, honestly, because to me, it does show respect and a bit of deference and to say, I'm not going to be the person who's just having you sit there and wait for me and then wonder, right? It puts you in a position where now it's 1004 and you're like, where is she?

Starting point is 00:53:01 Is she coming? What's happening? Right? You don't need to have that even cognitive hassle. So I try to make things as I try to anticipate, I guess, as much as possible and make life the best that it can be for you as well as it takes the stress off of me as well. So I know when we're meeting and I'm glad that we were able to find a time that worked for us both. Well, it's greatly appreciated. Dr.gernor.substack.com highly recommend the ultra successful newsletter or substack that you write,

Starting point is 00:53:30 as well as Dr. Gerner on Twitter, which a lot of my questions were formed based on the things you've published for free online, which I think led to an amazing conversation. So I'm very appreciative of you, Dr. Gerner, and I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress. I'd love that as well. Thank you so much for having me on. It was wonderful to meet you, and you are as thoughtful as I assumed you would be. Thank you. It means a lot. Thank you. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learning leader.com. Let me know all of the great stuff you learned from Dr. Julie Gerner. She's so good.

Starting point is 00:54:14 Takeaways from my notes, high standards. Holding a high bar is uncomfortable because it is exclusionary. And most people want to make everyone around them happy and comfortable. If you hold a standard, it can't include everything. Figuring out your line and holding to it will mean some tough conversations. It's important that we hold and have high standards and that we're willing and able to have those tough conversations to ensure. sure all who want to be a part of our organization or our team or even in our lives understand what those standards are. Balance. People will tell you in books that they have to live a

Starting point is 00:54:56 balanced life. But if we are completely honest, almost all great things are born from periods of imbalance. That doesn't mean you're always an imbalance. But when you're making the best of the best, the most useful things, you're building a company, you're making a product, you're writing a book, making a podcast, whatever the thing may be. When you're deep in it, you're probably not that balanced. That's okay. We can't live in that frame and that phase of life every day forever. It is important to understand that we will be there from time to time if we want to do excellent work.

Starting point is 00:55:35 And then we talked about the trait and people who go on to do great things that she borrowed from Paul Graham. He defined it as being relevant. relentlessly resourceful. It starts, as Julie said, with an unshakable self-belief. Those relentlessly resourceful people believe it's possible, and then they find a way to get it done. They aren't afraid to fail and keep going. Their deep belief in themselves keep them coming back for more, even if there are multiple

Starting point is 00:56:05 failures. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leaders Show with Dr. Julie Garner, I think she'll help you become a more effective leader. And because you continue to do that and you continue to go to Ryanhawk.net, which will launch you to iTunes Apple Podcasts. And once you're there, you write a thoughtful review and you rate the show, hopefully five stars. And by doing that, you are continually giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis.

Starting point is 00:56:37 And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 538: Dr. Julie Gurner - Setting High Standards, Being Relentlessly Resourceful, Achieving Huge Results (Compared to Wendy Rhoades of "Billions")

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