The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 549: Dr. Sara Kuburic - Take Ownership, Accept Hard Truths, Discover Your SELF, & Change Your Life (It's On Me)

Episode Date: October 15, 2023

Text Hawk to 66866 to become part of "Mindful Monday." Join 10's of thousands of your fellow learning leaders and receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right... Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12   https://twitter.com/RyanHawk12   Change happens when we feel empowered. It's on us to take responsibility for our lives and help others take responsibility for theirs. As leaders, change is more likely to happen for the people we are serving if we help them feel empowered. Listening is not a passive activity. Take it seriously. It starts with genuinely caring for the person you're in conversation with. "Being disliked is a rite of passage." Being disliked is normal. Being uncomfortable about being disliked is also normal. Reminding your Self that how you feel about your Self matters more than how others feel about you is key. Sense of self – "Sense of self is not something that is found… We create our sense of self…" "My interest in psychology stems from my personal experience living through wars, navigating complex relationships, and continually learning what it means to be human." This book is about facing ourselves –whatever version that might be, regardless of whether or not we like the person we see reflected back to us. It's about what's possible once we realize that we are responsible for who we become and how we live our lives (a daunting, but profoundly liberating idea). IT'S ON US to figure out the two most essential questions: "Who am I" and "Why am I here?" and then live accordingly. "I am thankful for my struggle because, without it, I wouldn't have stumbled across my strength." Repeat out loud: "I will stop giving second chances to people who don't want it, won't use it, or don't deserve it." "The deepest form of loneliness comes from being estranged from ourselves, not from others." "Comparison doesn't just steal our joy, it also screws with our perspective." "Mistakes don't have to define you. But what you choose to do after a mistake often does." "Just a gentle reminder: The worst-case scenario that you're playing out in your head is probably not going to happen." "Don't confuse the snippets you get to see of someone's life (through media or a casual conversation) as their whole story. Give each other the courtesy of curiosity. Allow people to be undefined in your mind. Actively seek to see them, and allow them to show you who they are." "If you don't have all the information, stop filling in the blanks with your imagination, fears or projections. It's better to learn to sit with an unclear picture than to carry around an inaccurate one." "Instant gratification can be a form of self-harm." "If you're doing the work, you deserve to be with someone who is also doing the work. It's simple." "Relationship tip: When someone tells you what they want (or don't want) through words or actions — listen. Stop assuming you know better than they do. It's not your job to read their mind, anticipate their needs, or save them."

Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show, presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text Hawk to 666866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email for me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right. You'll also receive details about how my book The Pursuit of Excellence, We'll help you become a more effective leader. Text Hawk to 666866.

Now on to tonight's feature leaders. It's a great one. Dr. Sarah Kubrick is an existential psychotherapist. He's a consultant and a columnist for the USA Today, and she is the person behind the popular Instagram page at Millennial Therapist. She's also the author of The Great New Book called It's On Me, Accept Hard Trues, Discover Yourself and Change Your Life. During this conversation, we discuss the common reasons people avoid taking responsibility.

Then Sarah shares how to use visualization to be a better leader. And we talked about the impact surviving two wars by the age of nine had on Sarah. And at the end, I asked her how we all and if we all could benefit from therapy. This is a conversation unlike any I've ever had on the Learning Leader Show. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy the great Sarah Huberick. Sarah, it is great to have you here on the Learning Leader Show. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me.

I'm so excited. So by the age of nine, you have experienced two wars. That is quite an upbringing. Where were you? What had happened in your life? I just love to learn about some of the earlier parts of your upbringing. Yeah, so I was born in Bosnia right before the war and my whole family was living there. And then once the war started, they tried to stick around and that was kind of impossible.

It was incredibly unsafe. And so then they kind of moved to Serbia. My mom is Serbian. And then they, you know, started their life over essentially. And about, I don't know, a couple years later, the Kosovo war started. and then the bombings, the NATO bombings in 1999 started in Serbia. And so that's the event that I remember, obviously, most vividly in terms of like spending nights in bomb shelters.

And, you know, it was quite scary because my parents were divorced at the time already. And my dad lived in a different city, but that city got bombed all the time. And so, you know, you're like listening to your radio. You can't have the TV on. You're listening to your radio. You're like, oh, another attack on Obisad. and you're like, okay, and that's very scary because you keep checking in, the phone lines are not working, you're making sure your dad's still alive. It's a very strange thing to go through as a child.

Wow. Think of my life up until I was nine, and it consisted of playing sports, hanging out with my brothers and my mom and my dad and having ice cream and family dinners. That's how it should be. Well, I mean, that is insane, though. That's what you do. I can't fathom like that. that has had to impact you for the rest of your life. I mean, how would it not? Yeah, it definitely has. I think for a long time, I didn't realize it did.

I think there was something really strange about living through something traumatic with everyone around you. So if it's like a shared trauma, is it even there? I'm being cheeky, but as in like, it's so normalized that like none of us talked about in terms of impact or trauma probably to like a decade later, if not, I'm in my mid-20s when I was like, oh, this had consequences. And I honestly, as aware as I think I am, I didn't really put those two and two together because I was like, everyone I know has gone through this.

So if I'm struggling, it must be because of something else. It must be because of something I'm doing. And part of that was true, but not all of it. Well, let's fast forward. You're 24 years old. you're visiting Los Angeles for the weekend. You're having drinks with a college friend. You know, and you're doing the light reminiscing that you do with your college friends that you haven't seen in a while.

And that friend asked you, are you happy? What happened next? Yeah, I think that question completely unraveled me. And even now when I reflect on it, I realize how rarely we ask this question to each other. Like it's like, oh, did you get that promotion? Oh, are your kids like healthy? Oh, like congratulations on you, you must be happy. How many times do you hear like, oh, wow, you did that? Oh, you must be so happy right now. So few of us ask the question, are you happy? And I just don't think anyone's asking that. Truly, I don't think anyone's asking that question. And I think because of my childhood experiences, I've gone into self-preservation at a really young age. And what I didn't go into and lean into was self-aware. self-discovery, self-expression, and obviously the consequences of that would be one unhappy person. And I think it was, you know, the perfect storm, the perfect timing. I was in grad school.

I was learning psych. I was starting to kind of get some tools and skills and get into a safe enough space with myself that I can look at the hard truth. And I think when he gave me the hard truth or that opportunity to look at it, I took it. and it completely, I mean, it unraveled me. I don't think I, I recovered from that question for about two years after because I ended up having a panic attack the day after, which was my very first panic attack ever. Then I persisted to have panic attacks and anxiety for about two years to a very extreme extent. And so my whole life fell apart in those two years following that one question.

This may be a dumb question, but what was the root cause of, you? you're being unhappy. Yeah, I think self-lossed. I think I just realized that I had no ownership of who I was for the life I was living. I think it's really horrifying. I think I had this moment where, you know, he asked, are you happy?

We chatted. I started crying. I was humiliated. I was not very used to showing public emotion. I went to the bathroom trying to collect myself. And I remember looking in a mirror. And not only was it. they're like, fuck you, because I just, sorry, my left to swear.

You can bleep that out. You're my guess. I don't edit my guess, yeah. Okay. It was like a very, I think it's one of the only times I swear in the book, but because that's how I genuinely felt. There was so much anger and disdain, but I think even more scary than that was the fact I didn't recognize her.

I don't know if you've ever looked in the mirror and just kind of saw that hollow person staring back at you and you're like, are you in there? Like, what, what is happening? I do not feel connected to you at all. all. I think I had that moment in the mirror of like, wow, I have no idea who I am and I woke up and this is my life and this is not the life I want. And I think that's where the suffering. Yeah. Do you mean you're like you're doing stuff you shouldn't be doing? You're not like on the right path. Like because I'm trying to like relate this to any moments in my life of thinking

like that and others who who have gone through this is just like, wow, what am I doing every day? or I haven't done the reflective work. I'm trying to get there. So what do you mean by that? All of it. But you know, the funny thing is I was doing all the right things. So like that's what made it harder. Yeah, that's what I thought.

Like you're doing great work. Like you're in grad school. You're studying something you're deeply curious about. To me, that seems like you are doing the right thing. You are like being your authentic self. So that's, I guess, part of my confusion. Absolutely. And that's such a great question.

I think that is the only part of myself I kept. And I think that curiosity. psychology stemmed from a really deep desire to understand myself. I think we always joke about, like, read someone's master thesis or doctoral work and you'll understand what they're trying to understand about themselves in psych. And so it's always like, it's kind of a vulnerable thing to tell people why you studied because you're like, oh, that's what she's struggling with. And I do think that part is the only thing I kept, but I was married at the time. I belonged to a community at the time that I was really involved in.

I didn't share my opinions. I didn't really have opinions. I thought I did, but not about things that mattered. I wasn't in touch with my emotions. I was in touch with my body. And the little decisions that were informed by this disconnect built a very big life that I didn't want. And it's not always the big things, right? It's not always the, but like, you know, part of the process,

for me was realizing like I don't want to be a part of this community and I don't necessarily want to be in this marriage and I want to have completely different relationships with the people around me that are informed by my emotions and my body and all this other stuff. And so I think what made it more difficult was the fact that people were looking in and going, you must be so happy. You must be so proud. You're doing so well. The girl in the bunkers would have been like, wow, we made it. You're in Canada. You're doing, you know. And I think the fact that I was so deeply unhappy was embarrassing. I had a lot of shame around that because I was like, what's so bad about living in Vancouver and achieving these things? But achievement was also just a way for me to avoid myself. And that was the problem. So I wouldn't go like, you know, you're doing everything right. Congratulations.

I think sometimes we need to look at those overachievers or those busy people and go, what is motivating it? Because the end goal is not always just, it's not the point. That's a lot. Well, you mentioned, I'm going to battle through this whole thing. Okay. You mentioned on the mirror and on your book, which is titled, It's on Me, except hard truth, discover yourself and change your life.

It's awesome. Great title, great book. We're going to get a lot of it. But you have a circle on it and that circle represents a mirror. So obviously if you chose to put it on a cover, it's a big deal. What is the importance of a mirror in all of our lives? I thought it was interesting because of my mirror experience. I also think it's cool when you go, it's on me, but you actually see the me when you're holding the book.

And the mirror is as much as the title is referring to a responsibility. Taking responsibility for your life. When I... See, that was concise. I love it. We're going to go long and then we're going to go short. You know, like, I didn't think I would bring here. This is nowhere my notes, but that answer right there just made me think, and I've had him on the show, too.

It's been a little bit, of Jocko. I don't know if you know Jock Willings' work, Extreme Ownerships, the name of his book, but Extreme Ownership reminds me of it's on me. It's my responsibility. So it feels like was it that moment that you said, I'm going to take ownership or this is on me? It's about me taking ownership of my life. I got to get this in control. Does that mesh?

Does that work? Yeah, so I think when I looked at myself, I went, I don't know who you are. I think really that's, and when you say it's on me, it's hard to take that responsibility and ownership if you don't know who the me is. Yeah. And it was after my panic attack when I was got off the flight right before we took off, the paramedics came to the gate. I lost function of my arms and speech.

And I think it was interesting because my sister was there with me and she watched me go into this paralysis, this spiral. And she was like in verge of tears, calling dogs. doctors, paramedics were there. And I realized she would have done anything to save me, but she couldn't. And I think it was that moment of like, oh, it's on me. I am the only person that can take full responsibility for my own life, be that existentially, physically, metaphorically.

And so I think it was that moment where it's like, oh, I'm willing to do anything to survive. You've written a post about people taking responsibility and that there are three common reasons people avoid taking responsibility. What are some of the reasons we avoid taking responsibility? Yeah. Some of the reasons I think is because we don't want to change. I think when we take responsibility, we realize that we're going to have to change our behaviors and our actions. And most of us are really uncomfortable with that concept. So if it's not our responsibility, we don't have to do anything about it.

And I think that's probably the biggest reason as to why we don't take responsibility. And maybe we saw our parents model to us lack of responsibility. Maybe we feel like if we take responsibility for one little thing, we have to take responsibility for all of it. And if, you know, if you're having an argument with your partner and you go, you know what? You're right. This is where I screwed up. That usually spirals into like, and now it's all your fault. You know, and your partner is like, that's right.

And I think because it happened so much, then sometimes. Sometimes we're even scared to admit the little that might be our fault because we don't want to, then it's just fully placed on us. And I think that happens in life a lot. And so it's because everyone's uncomfortable with responsibility and we're all trying to pass it off to the next person. You are an existential psychotherapist. That seems like a lot. What is an existential psychotherapist? Yes.

It's a mouthful. I feel like. It sounds a lot scary than it is. I think, you know, people will be like, what's the difference between? existential psychotherapist in normal therapy. And I want to be like, there is no such thing as normal therapy. And like every single therapist that you see or encounter is trained in a method, a modality, a particular framework through which we see suffering, mental health concerns, solutions. And so it's like your lens through which you see your client. And my lens just happens to be existentialism,

which stems from the philosophy of the existentialism. And something. that we watch out for are really sensitive to are like topics of responsibility and choice and freedom and death and isolation and meaning and meaninglessness these are kind of the things you know if you're an attachment therapist you're going to look for the person's attachment and so if you're an existentialist you're going to be looking for these kind of core things in the person's life that's like the simplest way i can i didn't i didn't realize there were all so many different like virgins are there like what of therapy so sorry i shouldn't ask it like that No, it's cool. I think I'm probably representative of a lot of people who need this. I'm the first one. That's why I wanted to talk to you because I have very little to zero experience with it other than talking with a few on this podcast. So that's why it's shot. I was like, what does that even mean? And I didn't realize there were so many different kinds of therapists.

So many different kinds. So many different modalities. They're all really great and useful for different things. And I think as a therapist, it's really important for you. to find something that also aligns with your personality and natural way of thinking. I think then you become a more effective therapist. And existential psychotherapy is super rare in North America. So the fact you've never heard of it is so normal. I don't think anyone has. Even some therapists haven't. So it's like really niche more of a European specialization.

My doctor is from Europe. So it makes sense. Gotcha. So like who are your ideal clients? Is that the right way to put it? Like who are the like what are they coming to you with? I know they're all different, but like, what are they coming to you with that maybe a different therapist would not work with them? I don't know if there's anything that another therapist wouldn't, but if you're really struggling to figure out your meaning and purpose in life, an existential therapist probably not a bad place to start.

And same with the identity question. Like, who am I? And in my book, I talk about like, you know, I'm going to help you answer who am I? Why am I here? And I would say that's generally what I work with the most. but that could also be the way, you know, I'm positioning myself and the types of people I'm attracting. I think existential therapy can be helpful for a lot of things, but those two, I think, in particular is where we shine. A lot of people come in for anxiety, difficulties in their

relationships, all the regular stuff, but you know, we always say like the problem someone comes with is usually not the whole picture or the whole problem or sometimes even the actual problem. And so when we kind of peel the layers, a lot of it boils down to who am I? Why am I here? So how do you help somebody answer the questions? Who am I and why am I here? Yeah, I mean, I get them to buy my book and then. Okay.

No, I think something, you know, these are really big questions. And sometimes that takes months or years for someone to fully figure it out. I think first for them to observe who they're acting as. So a lot of us go, I think I'm this person, but their actions do not. portray that at all and that's not just you know difficult for the people around them that's actually difficult for you because the output when you're looking at it you don't recognize I don't know if you've ever done something we were like I don't know why did that or like that's so unlike me but that can't be unlike you because that is you like how you're acting is you

and I think a lot of us think that who we are is this really cognitive cerebral kind of process But that's also combined with a very visceral experience of your own body and also your actions. There is no self without actions. And there has to be that alignment. And I think sometimes we go like, when you look at yourself not acting as yourself, you have two options. One, you reconstruct who you think you are or two, you change your action because what you're trying to do is a line. And so I think with clients at the start, you're just trying to get them to observe what

they think they are, who they think they are, and how they're actually acting. I think the self is not something that is found. I think a lot of us go like, I'm going to go find myself. But that then means that there was a self that was already constructed and all you have to do is grab it, grasp it, and then live it, like just take it on and die with it. I'd say it's like going into a closet, putting on a sweater and being like, good. Like, that's my outfit for the rest of my life. But I think for me, it's creating your sense of self. And so teaching the client of like what the self is, how it's constantly created, how to use their actions as feedback, deconstructing beliefs, and then reconstructing

beliefs, all of this is a part of it and so much more. So is it start like from creating a foundation of values to live by? Like these are what I value most. And then here are the behaviors to align with those values. and I'm currently not living in alignment. Maybe I haven't done the work to actually establish what these values are for me, the code of my life. I guess as a way you could put it.

Is that like a part of the foundation? Yeah, that's huge. I think values and morals are very connected to your sense of self. And we don't talk about it that way. We're always like, it's a like external thing or a religious thing or whatever. I study moral injury for a decade now. And your sense of morality is so closely tied to your sense of, identity. And I think sometimes you don't know what your values and morals are or you take on the one

from your context, your society, the religion you've been brought in. And they don't have to be wrong, but I think there has to be ownership of them, which means if you've never stopped to question or discern if they align, that's when they can feel like they're not yours. So I'm not saying that like you can't have the same values and morals as those around you. It's more that you're checking in with yourself. And if you don't know what your value is in life, sometimes I will get people to just write down everything they did in the day. Anything you've done. Great. Let's talk about the value behind each action because there's always a value. There's something you value if you did it. So even if you hate your job and you went to work, the reason you went there is because you

value financial security because you value food because you value your family. And so with each action that you do, if you peel it back, you'll be able to see a bunch of values that maybe you're not even aware that you're living out. And I think that's cool. So you can work both ways. You can have it as like a framework and then make sure your actions are aligning. Or you can also just look at your actions and be like, okay, what do I inherently tend to gravitate towards? And then you can also go, I don't want to live those values anymore. But I think it's always like an inner outer pool. I think with value work, I'm always very careful because I never want to impose values on people. but I think for them to figure out, okay, if I really value connection or integrity or honesty,

I'll get a lot of clients that will ask me like, do you think this is the right thing to do? And then I'll go, there is no right thing to do. There is no perfect solution. There's no perfect choice. But does this align with your values, this align with who you think you are? Are you the type of person that does this? I know for you a value is integrity. Do you feel like you're living with integrity when you make this decision?

And that's not me being like, do you think that's intense? Like it's not like it's generally a question because sometimes what they feel is integrity. I don't or what they think is authentic. I might not for myself is what I mean not for them. So it's like I'm really careful, but I want them to start developing an inner dialogue where they know what questions to ask themselves and then know how to respond to them through their actions. You always want your client to be able to do it without you.

That's the ultimate goal. Is it? Because in a way, though, you're like, you're trying to put yourself out of business. Like you're like a parent. Yeah. I think that way of parenting, ultimately your job is not to put yourself like so that they don't need you. Or it's you do want to help raise your kids so that they don't need you, but that maybe they just want to spend time with you as they get older.

I feel like is that how you view it that you are trying to, help them. It may take years, but you want to help them be in a place where they can help themselves. Oh, absolutely. It's really, like, it's weird and sad, too, where you're like, and now I'm not going to see you. You form these relationships. You care about these people. Hopefully been a helpful part of their journey, but the point is for them to be like, hey, I don't need you anymore. And that's a really strange thing about my profession. It's like, we obviously, that's her livelihood, but at the same time, you want them to fire you in terms of like, you want them to be like, I'm good. You taught me.

I'm going to live my life now. It's a really weird part of being a therapist. There's one element of therapy that I hate painting, like paying this with a broad brush, but with a few colleagues or friends that have come back after newly meeting with therapists for maybe a few months. One of the things that I've seen that, I'm trying to mean this as a criticism, but I've seen it as it just seems to pop up, is that they... I'm open.

Okay, good. Okay, and I'm sure you deal with this. But I share this with you because this is honestly what I think and you're the perfect person to ask. I say this out of deep respect is that they'll come back and one of the first things I hear is they talk about like childhood traumas from their parents. And it seems like the opposite of it's on me. It seems like the opposite of taking ownership. It's like, well, things are bad or whatever's messed up, but it's not my fault. It's because of my mom and my dad or whatever.

And that has popped up more than a handful of times with people. I'm like, is this just like the go-to move of a therapist to say, hey, you're good, you're good. It's just mom and your dad's fault. I'm just thinking of that, like, I don't love that. I don't love that that seems to be a commonality. So what do you think about that? I don't love it either. Okay.

Is it something that happens? Yes. Yes. Do I think that therapists aren't necessarily telling them you're good, this happened all the time? No, I think that's sometimes what people want to hear. And that's what they take away, right? A therapist can point out, hey, this is what your parents did and it's how it's impacting you. Okay, what would you like to do about it now?

And all you can hear sometimes is not my fault. So are there a therapist out there maybe saying it's not your fault or it's not on you? I mean, it's not your fault. That's true, actually. But are there therapists out there saying it's not on you to decide how you live your life now? Maybe that's a horrifying thought, but maybe. You know, like, I mean, if you feel like now that early childhood has determined the rest of your life and you have absolutely no participation or say, you know, that's not a very empowering stance in my opinion. But maybe that happens once in a while.

Although I would also argue that sometimes people just want to hear and get validated and we hear what we want to hear. We get the information that we think is going to reinforce our current behaviors. Or maybe they're really early on in a session. And a therapist is, you know, you need to build rapport. You can't go out of the gate. Be like, you're the 10 things I think you're doing wrong. Like, that is not. Part of that journey is also allowing the client to come to their own truth at their own time.

And maybe this is really early on where they haven't gone there. They're still processing the fact that their childhood impacted them or that their parents screwed up and they're grieving the fact that they didn't have the childhood they thought they had. So really it's hard to make these snap judgments because you don't know where they are in the process, how resistant they are, what the therapist has actually said, what they took away. So I know it's easy to get frustrated, but I think in rare cases, is it ever that a therapist is like, is your parents' fault, you're good. Yeah.

Well, I just love people who take agency over their lives. And I mean, that's why I love the title of your book and why I've been digging into your stuff for a long time now is just this kind of whatever happened, but now it's on me, right? That's what you say. It's on me to take ownership and do something about it, whether you lived a privileged great childhood like I did or not. Either way, it's still on me to take ownership over like my choices and be responsible. If I mess up, it's on me.

And I don't like, I don't like the thought of someone just blaming somebody else or something else when they've made poor choices over and over again. Yeah, I don't either. And I think change happens when we feel empowered and when we realize that we have the power, I think blaming your past. And look, I'm not going to lie, there are some people with really hard past. No doubt. So unfair to go, they made the mess and I have to clean it.

That, you know, it lands differently than someone who hasn't had maybe something like that happened. And now it's like, we'll take responsibility. But I think a lot of people see the inherent unfairness, and then that's why they resist. They're like, but it wasn't my fault to begin with. But what I guess, unfortunately, it becomes something you participate in. You become, you participate in your own further hurt by not taking responsibility, by not cleaning up the mess, by not moving on.

And that's a really hard pill to swallow. And I always, and sometimes it's not extreme things, but really uncomfortable or painful things. Like I have an example there of Chad, a guy who his parents got divorced in high school or who was cheated on with his first love cheated on him. And he was really, and we want to validate the fact that this was difficult for Chad. But now he's in his 30s mistreating everyone he's dating. And what point is Chad responsible for the way he lives his life? The past can explain why he got to where he got, but he doesn't justify his behavior. And a lot of people are like, well, yeah, Chad really needs to get it together because Casey, the person he's dating, deserves better.

And I always resist that. I'm like, yeah, sure, but that's also on Casey for dating Chad. But Chad deserves better. This is why Chad should take responsibility so he can have genuine connection. So he can have fulfillment. So he can live the life or be the person who he probably wants to be. So it's not about can we help Chad not destroy everyone. become so destructive.

It's like, no, let's take care of Chad. And I think that's what responsibility does. It's like it helps you live the life that you'd one day be satisfied with. Thank you for coming with me on all this. I know I'm throwing questions from all over the place. No, I love it. I really appreciate it.

You've written about in your book, visualization. And I know this is a tool you use where you will help them visualize something. You'll either say it or read something. And I'm fascinated by visualization. I've had times in my life where I'm like, yes, I'm thinking about it. I'm watching golfers visualize the shot before they take it.

I have a sports background, so I think about that a lot, like visualize plays and games before they happen. And like now as a keynote speaker doing the same thing, visualize how I walk on the stage and open the talk. I love to learn more about the science behind visualization, why you use it, how we could use it both maybe with a therapist like you or use it on our own in our own lives to make any situation better. So I think the visualization I use,

is of an individual in a burning room that is too preoccupied or too angry, really, to do anything about it. And it's speaking, it really connects to what we just talked about of like some of them are too busy asking who set the fire in the first place, but they're so busy asking who set the fire that they don't leave the room and the consequences in existential death. or they're so busy pinning aspirational Instagram quotes online or meeting their work deadline that they don't understand that they're going to die. And I think the reason why I use a visualization sometimes is because it allows the client to be more embodied in this experience. I can tell them, hey, have you heard about self-loss and not really knowing who you are?

And sometimes that hits different. I think allowing them to place themselves in a burning room and realize the absurdity of like, I can save myself, but I'm not, and I'm not taking it seriously, does something different. I think it evokes a more instinctual response. It's funny, because if I said, I'm placing you in a burning room, I'm sure you'd be like, where are the exits who are the windows? What can I use to break the window or the door? Like, you'd be thinking about surviving. Most of us have this threat of meaninglessness or self-loss, and we do nothing about it because we do nothing about it,

because we don't know the threat is there. So I use a visualization to kind of show the tension of that and sometimes the absurdity of the fact that we don't realize that we're in danger. And so I think it's just a really cool way to bring them all in and almost allow them to like park themselves on the side. They're a visualization. They're entering a world where it's like, I am going to experience what you tell me to experience.

And so I think it can be a really cool way to, yeah, just get them fully present in what I'm trying to talk about. What does that look like in practice? Are they closing their eyes? I know you do a lot of stuff on Zoom like this primarily. So what is that like? Yeah. So first of all, lots of safety within the relationship.

It's not a per session thing. And a lot of the clients, I'll ask if they want to close their eyes or not. So it's totally up to them. I've never had a client say no, but they're totally allowed to. And I ask them to get really comfy. And most people are home. so they're in their on their couches or their favorite chair or whatever. And so I get them to get as comfortable as possible so that they're not thinking about their hip pain or their, you know, their wrist that hurts.

And they can be very present for this exercise and kind of go deep with me and allow me to kind of paint a picture for them. So yeah, they're closing their eyes. I am telling them a story. Sometimes I'll ask them to, depending on what exercise I have the armchair exercise at the end. of the book as well where I ask them to nod or answer some questions at the end of it. And so it depends how interactive I want to make the visualizations. But for this one, I usually just get them to sit there and at the very end tell me what they think it means. Let's talk about one of the skills that you've had to develop to become really good that I think would help all leaders.

I found working with leaders that a lot of them need and want someone to simply listen to them, especially if they need to talk about something sensitive that they can't talk about at work or they don't want to burden a spouse at times. And so they need someone to just listen and be a sounding board and maybe offer something. Maybe not. Maybe just listen and ask a follow up and listen some more. The skill of listening is very underrated, I feel like. Most people aren't very good at it.

When I took an improv class, they told me all the stats about how we're terrible listeners. but I know this is something you've had to get really good at. So I really want to focus on that. What have you done to become such a good listener? Because if you weren't, people would not keep coming back to you. And so I know that's got to be a big part of the skills you developed. And I think there's something broadly all of us could get better at. So I'm curious just when you think of being a good listener overall.

How could we get better at it? I think I take it really seriously. It's not a passive activity for me. it's like if I have a client coming in or I'm a consultant at a job or I'm doing an event or doing a podcast, it's like I am not going to be thinking about something else that someone else is talking. I'm going to understand how complex it is to fully comprehend what the other person's trying to communicate. I'm going to look at their body language if I can. And I'm going to take it very seriously. I'm also going to try to not listen for the sake of responding. And I'm going to take my time. And I think, you know, everyone mocks me because they say, like, you're, you act like an 80 year old woman. I don't drink.

I don't party. Like, I like to be in bed by nine. And something I tell them is like, I take my job really seriously. If I am tired, if I'm emotional because I'm hungry, if I'm whatever, I'm not doing my client's justice. If I have a bunch of taps open in my brain, I am not listening. And if I'm not listening, I can't do my job. And listening is exhausting in terms of the amount of energy and surrendering yourself to

whatever they're saying. And then there's also, how do you make sure you're not resisting their truth? And that's not just with clients. That's with everyone. It's like, am I being triggered? How do I process that while I'm listening? There's just so much going on. And I just don't think for me, I feel like listening is my job.

And so when I go like, I'm hydrated, I don't drink caffeine usually before sessions. I go to bed early. It's because I want to be able to be able to. to have the capacity to truly see and listen. Wow. That's amazing. For others who aren't as dedicated when it comes to all of those things, you're going to better early, no caffeine, no drinking, no partying for the normal person.

I mean, for the most part, okay? Yeah, I got you. Yeah, yeah. What are some things you think, like someone could say, like, immediately following listening to this conversation where they could say, like, I do this and this to become a better listener? I mean, I think it starts one with just to give you time to think. I think it starts with deeply caring for what the other person says.

That should not be assumed. But if you deeply care, that goes a long way as opposed to maybe acting like you care. So anyway, I'd love to hear more from a listening perspective. I think one is what is your motivation with this conversation. That's a good question. Are you trying to understand them? Are you trying to prove a point? Are you trying to de-escalate an argument?

What are you doing? What is your intention? and what is your positioning. So important, so you can be honest with yourself and if you may be, communicate that with the other person. Second is I love reflective listening, which is essentially going, what I heard you say is, or what I'm understanding is,

and this does two things. One, it makes the other person feel like you care. It makes them go like, okay, wow, they were really paying attention, and this is what they came up with. Such a wonderful feeling. Even if you're off, there's something really validating about you putting the effort to listen and try to summarize.

Few, which is the biggest benefit of all, I think, is you understand when you're wrong because they'll go, actually, that's not what I meant. What I meant is, and it's such a great way to go like, okay, let's edit, adjust, so we make sure we have the same understanding. And you do that as many times as you need to because then be like, well, actually, it's more like this. So you go, okay, so what I'm understanding is, and they'll go, well, almost. And, you know, sometimes it feels like a ridiculous conversation.

But it's a really important one because a lot of times someone says something, you say something, you listen and you go, okay, I think this is what they meant. And they go, okay, but this is what I think I said. Sometimes they don't even understand that they're maybe not communicating what they actually mean until you reflect back to them. And so I think both people walk away being like, great. And they have completely different narratives. So that's what you're trying to avoid by doing this. And if someone goes, hey, Sarah, what I hear you say is, and it's not matching what I think. I said that's also a good place for me to go, why am I coming up this way? That's actually one of the exercises they had us doing improv training where the person would share, it was an exercise, but they would share a long sentence or a mini story. And then the listener's job, this is to develop that skill was to, in one time, one of the exercise was you had to repeat it exactly as they said it, which is really hard. But another version of the exercise was you could restate it in your own words like this is what I heard and they want you to be able to share all the way to the end which helps to remove this waiting to talk syndrome that a lot of us have

as opposed to listening all the way to the end maybe even pausing sometimes that's awkward but pausing to think for a second and then asking the follow up or then restating what I heard you say I think that's a really good practice that all of us if anything you use it as an exercise as a tool to fully and deeply listen all the way and then respond as opposed just waiting like, okay, I'm ready, I'm ready, I'm ready, and they're not even close to being done answering. I think that's something all of us could probably do to get better. For sure. Well said, and I think there's something, if we want to tie in responsibility just for a full circle moment,

I think when you do that to people, then they go, oh, do I want to take responsibility for what I just said? Do you know what I mean? because sometimes we say things and we're like, well, that's just how I feel or this what I'm thinking in the moment. And that's fair game. But when someone goes, okay, what I heard is you're upset about this or you don't want to do this or there's something confrontational about it. And again, I'm not saying be aggressive or confrontational. But I think it also, if we all did it with each other, that would place a lot of responsibility on your words of like, wow, this is what I'm saying or this is what I'm claiming. And sometimes I don't even

fully realize the weight of that until someone else. has reflected it to me. Very interesting. In your newsletter and on Instagram may be controversial. You wrote being disliked is a right of passage and I thought I remember stopping and reading throughout on Instagram and I in your newsletter thinking wonder what that's all about. So why is being disliked a right of passage? I think because you can't be liked by everyone. I mean it sounds so controversial but it's really not and I think it's more accept the fact that not everyone's going to like you and make sure that

you're one of the people that does. I think that's a right of passage. You're being like, okay, I don't make everyone happy, but I make myself happy. And I think when we're able to do that, that's great growth. And again, I'm not speaking about being self-serving or selfish. I'm just discussing the intention with which you live your life and being able to go, okay, that person, doesn't like me and I'm still going to stay firm in who I am because this aligns and that's okay. Why would somebody not like you? Oh, I mean, so many reasons. My face, my hair, no, my personality.

It can be like you trigger them. You make them think of an X or you're, let's say you're a very unthenting person and they're resisting their own authenticity. I think a lot of inauthentive people have a hard time being around authentic people. Maybe a different sense of humor. It can be as shallow or as deep as you want it, but people are allowed to have preferences. I'm not saying people will hate you because that seems like a lot of investment. There should be a concrete reason for that.

But then being like, hey, this is not a tea at order again. Like, that's okay. And I think there's something really magical about finding people that you have a connection with and intimacy with and that they really understand you. And a lot of people don't like you because they don't know who you are. So I think that happens a lot. I think if we spent more time truly understanding each other, there would be less dislike. But most of us are not listening.

Most of us are not truly trying to understand who you are and the context that led you to where you are and how you think of what you believe and what you're trying to do in the world. And so then it's much easier to just dismiss you or label you as something they did like. And it feels like that also means you probably stand for something. Sure, which is like the famous quote. yeah. What's that? There's like a quote like you don't it's

if you stand for nothing you stand for nothing like if you stand for nothing but I mean yes yeah okay so like sometimes you stand for something or if you try to make everybody like you nobody will love you

and I think like that that one that could apply to a lot of us and I don't if this takes maturity or age I know in my own life Sarah I feel like that's a big part of it it's just taking years

It's taken work. It's taking conversations with people far wise than me. It's taken friends who I see the way that they stand for something. They live by a set of values. Their behaviors are in really good alignment with what they say their values are. And it's inspirational. It's like, oh, I can, yeah, I'm like, they're a little further along the path. But that's possible.

That's doable. I want to spend more time around them. So in a way, too, I'm curious how you help people develop their, I say like, develop your who like that's the Jim Collins what he said on the show like how do you help people say okay it's on me but part of it being on you is about developing your kitchen cabinet your who your inner circle whatever you want to call it I feel like that plays such a big role in this too huge role and I really like as long as you're self abandoning or self-betraying yourself has not become a priority that's something we need to keep in mind it's again that disconnect of like

yeah, I'm all about the self. And then your actions do not show you that. And in the book, I talk about how you cannot develop the who, the self, without others. We're social beings. There is that truth of like who you spend the most time with will impact who you become. And I don't like it when that is not part of the conversation. So I have a whole chapter on how your culture, your society, the people around you impact, mold, and shape you. There is no around that. Someone will shape you. the power you have is choosing who that someone is. You don't get the power of people don't shape you. That's just not a thing.

But you do have the power of, I spend the most time with these people doing these things. So I'm curating how I want to be shaped to an extent. And I think selecting who we are around is so important. Yet I feel like people don't talk about it enough. And it's, well, let's all be nice to each other. And let's all get along. And I agree.

but when you're talking about people you spend hours and hours with, it's okay to be selective. It's okay to only share that vulnerability and allow that much impact from only certain people. And that's what I tell my clients of like, who do you spend most of your time with? Okay, let's list them out. Okay, what are the things you respect about them? Great. What are their values that they seem to be living out? Great.

Okay. What are there some of their shortcomings? Great. What bothers you about them? Great. Is it something that bothers you about yourself? And we kind of deconstructing. It's really not about the other person because I know very little about the other person.

What I know is how my clients perceives the other person and how that other person is impacting the client. That's all that matters in this context. And so I think if you went that way, you'd be like, oh, I need to spend less time. Like, how do you feel after you spend five hours with this person is a great question? So I think it's just really kind of being willing to deconstruct things, look at them objectively, and then go, oh, I need to make some changes or like, wow, I really curated a great group of people. Yeah, I feel like it's, I admire, the ones who I want to be around more, I admire what they've accomplished and what they've done.

But more importantly, I admire the way in which they've done it and continue to do it. That's a great signal for me because sometimes people have accomplished a lot, but I don't admire the way in which they have accomplished it. And in that sense, I don't want them a part of my who. They've got to have both. I think it's like what they've done and the way they go about doing it is so important to me. And I think is a good signal for creating that really powerful who around you so that you have something to aspire for in a way, to level you up in a sense. And hopefully you can do that for each other.

But to me, I'm just always seeking it out and then trying to spend more time with those people. Oh, I love that you said that. That's so beautiful. And I agree the how is just as important as the what. And I think, are you trying to achieve the goal or are you trying to become more like the person who achieved the goal? Because the goal, that's what is going to end up happening. You're going to become more like the person who achieved the goal. The goal itself is not guaranteed and you can try to strive for it and you should.

If you want to, that's great. But I think what we think is like, well, if they achieve that goal, I'm just going to do what they do. and then we lose ourselves or compromise ourselves in order to do that. And I think what you just said is so key of like make sure they did it how you want to do it. Otherwise, you're going to find yourself not doing it the way you want to. And I think that would be a really sad and disoriented experience. On Instagram, millennial therapists, you're your name. As I last checked, 1.6 million people have elected to follow you.

That's wild. How did you, what was that like at the beginning? Could you have ever envisioned this? What do you think has been the reasons that so many people have elected to follow you? I remember giving myself six months, and I was like, this is embarrassing in 2019. When Instagram was still a photo heavy kind of platform, I was like, I'm going to do infographics and teach people about psych. And I remember thinking, no one's going to read this, literally. And I was like, this is so embarrassing, but I'm going to do it.

And I had like, my mom follow me and my sister and like made them be like, you guys need to like every post and save it to help my algorithms. Like, I had 200 people on there. but I kind of made a commitment to myself because I was like I feel passionate about advocacy work. I was traveling around at the time and I was like I also needed to be like figure out like how to get clients and how do I have a community even if I'm not stationed somewhere because community is always something that's meant a lot to me. And so yeah, I did it for six months. I remember hitting 5,000 at one point and being like I need to stop because the responsibility felt so great. I was like, I have 5,000 people listening and like potentially allowing this to inform their life. Like, I remember freaking out.

And I was being like, that's too much. I can't be like, I can't be responsible for 5,000 people. And then I think within the first year, I got 200,000. So I didn't stop my Instagram. And it just, like, it's just snowballed. And honestly, I think it's partly good timing. I was very lucky with, I guess, how the psych world kind of. quote for Instagram at that time.

I also think one of the biggest compliments I've received I'm not saying this to give myself a compliment but more maybe in explanation is that people find the content authentic and when they meet me in real life you're like exactly how I pictured you from your content and I think that's something I've always tried to do instead of being like

what does Sarah the therapist think and what should she write? It's like I'm going to try to portray how I understand the world and hopefully that will resonate with people in a very deep level and get them thinking about things. I'm never about like, I'm going to give you a solution. But it's like, if I can help you reflect even a little bit, I'm so excited. And so that's always been kind of my focus.

And now here we are, 1.6. And that feels really, yeah, so unreal. And I'm so grateful. And I still don't know why, but I'm very happy about it. I mean, I think I have education and smart things to say, but so do, you know, so do others. It seems like the combination of consistency and authenticity works really well. well. And it's useful and it's helpful, but like you're consistent and authentic with then and high competency. Maybe it's those three things. I don't know. Like consistency, authenticity, high level of competency and you do that. And it just, again, the consistency is part of it. It's like over and over people say, yeah, this is valuable. I want to share it with my

friends. It's helping me be better. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think those three are the accurate buckets. Again, you're putting me in a spot where I'm like, compliment myself. You're like, Yes, these are things. No, that's probably what it is, though. I think of others who are trying to do it, that's very hard to replicate and very hard to do. But if you simplify it as much possible, it feels to me like that's what it is. For sure.

Consistency is a huge one. Like, I don't think people understand of, like, how much work goes into creating this much free content. Like, it's just, you know, and I remember, again, you have like a year in, two years in, you're like, what am I going to write about it? Like, you have these, like, moments of panic of like, did I say everything? when it's saying, then you're like, no. And as you evolve as a person, so well, your content, and I think that's kind of the fun part of watching where I started and what my content was like

to now. But yeah, the consistency is like, everyone knows when Sarah's posting, don't talk to her. If I'm at dinner, if I'm like, it's one thing I do like religiously. It's like I don't care if I'm like at lunch, at dinner in my bed. If the time is right, I'm like posting and I'm very dedicated to it. And it's a big priority for me just because I do think people are like, I wake up and I look for your post. And that means something to me. And so I'm going to show up. That's how you serve. Yeah.

Do you think everybody needs and or would benefit from therapy? I don't think everyone needs therapy. Not sure how we would define need here. I do think most people would benefit from therapy, even just checking in, even just having, you know, if they're feeling a little stuck, having someone maybe reframe things or offer. slightly different questions. I think also a lot of people use their loved ones as therapists where they unload or, you know, seek for advice. And the reality is that, you know, your spouse, your friend is not trained to do that. And they're going through their own stuff. So whatever they're saying back is not objective and it's not necessarily serving you. They're like figuring out

their own stuff and that's coming out. So I think because I've seen how often people use non-therapists, as therapists, I would say that yes, pretty much everyone can't benefit, especially if you're in a high-stress job. I feel like if you're a CEO, a leader, and you're maybe not surrounded by so many people that can understand the pressure of your work or the complexity of your work, except other CEOs, it can feel really lonely and isolating. And I think when they say it's lonely on the top, like at the top, I think that's a very real thing. And it's not because people up there don't up there. It's a weird analogy, but don't want to hang out with anyone. It's because the problems they're having maybe sound too pompous. So they don't want to share the problems

that they're having other people can't relate to or help them solve. And so they feel a lot of pressure. And I think it can be isolating to. So yeah, I think that's one movement I'd like to see is like more people in power and leadership take advantage of therapy. I feel like it's happening more. It seems like it. It seems like it's happening more. Coaching is happening more, I think. You're right. You're right. It is.

And some of the therapists are rebranding themselves as coaches. I know. I've talked to some of them, even though because it maybe makes the clientele feel better, which probably their own issues up in just that sentence alone. But yeah, maybe it's rebranded as that, even though it's really therapy. But anyway, I know we're at time. The book is called It's On Me, Except Hard Truths. discover yourself and change your life extremely well done Sarah,

amazing storyteller as well as just beautifully written and I think practical and you could implement it and it'll make you think, that's for sure. But highly recommend in a good way. That's a great thing to think. I highly recommend people read It's on Me by Sarah. And I'm just so grateful that you came today and listened to all my crazy questions and random tangents, but this is so much fun. I'd love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, Sarah.

Yes, please. I loved your questions. I loved your input. It's some great things to say and add that made me think and be like, I need to sit after the interview and think about that.

Thank you so much. And I hope that we, yeah, we keep our dialogue going. I love it. Thanks, Sarah. It is the end of the podcast club. If you're a member of the end of the podcast club, send me an email,

Ryan at learningleader.com. I'd love to hear what you learn from this great conversation with Sarah. A few takeaways from my notes. Change happens. when we feel empowered. It's on us to take responsibility for our lives and help others take responsibility for theirs. As leaders, change is more likely to happen for the people we are serving if we help them feel

empowered. Think about how we can do this for those in our lives and those that we're leading. And then listening is not a passive activity. Take it seriously. Sarah went through all the things she does to be good at this. It starts with genuinely caring for the person you are in conversation with and deeply listening with your eyes and your ears and waiting all the way to the end before responding instead of just waiting to talk. Then being disliked is a right of passage.

If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything. And if you're trying to make everyone like you, nobody will love you. If you stand for something, it might rub some people the wrong way for various reasons. And that's okay. It's better to do the work to understand yourself, have core values, and live by them, even if it won't make everybody happy. That's okay. It's really about you living in alignment.

And that, as Sarah says, is a right of passage. Once I'm going to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two. Hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Sarah Kubrick. I think she'll help you become a more effective leader. And because you continue to do that, and you continue to go to Ryanhawk.net, which launches you into Apple Podcast. And once you're there, you write a thoughtful review and rate the show, hopefully five stars. By doing all that, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful.

Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.