The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 550: Dan Patrick - The Art of Interviewing, Leaving ESPN, Working With Dave Matthews & Adam Sandler, Asking Better Questions, & Taking Care of Your Team

Episode Date: October 22, 2023

Text Hawk to 66866 to become part of "Mindful Monday." Join 10's of thousands of your fellow learning leaders and receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right... Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12   https://twitter.com/RyanHawk12 What makes a great interview? They tell stories It feels like your eavesdropping on their conversation (he takes you inside) He disarms them with humor Ask shorter questions… Take care of your people… Dan has had the Dannettes with him for many years. He listens to his teammates, Makes them part of his show, and truly cares for him. In return, they are there for him every day. It seems obvious, but it's not. Dan is evidence that this approach works… Dan has been influenced by Howard Stern's interviewing style of always being curious... And he makes his staff part of the show. "I love being a voice in your head. You're in your car, driving, and I love being that voice in your head." Interviewing... Manage the tension. "Shorter questions get better answers." Dan met Adam Sandler at Madison Square Garden and agreed that he would be cast in his next movie... He has since been cast in many more. Dan shares the story of meeting Dave Matthews, spilling his beer on him, and then later singing karaoke with him. Dan is the author of The Occasionally Accurate Annals of Football: The NFL's Greatest Players, Plays, Scandals, and Screw-Ups (Plus Stuff We Totally Made Up) Leaving ESPN – Dan admitted he was hurt when good friend, Sports Illustrated writer Rick Reilly (who would move to ESPN) wrote, "Patrick was making one of the top 5 biggest career mistakes in entertainment history," ranking right under Shelley Long's leaving Cheers and Katie Couric's leaving NBC's Today show for the CBS Evening News. Life/Career advice: Be humble, be hungry, have humility, and be ready to go when your opportunity presents itself. The old adage rings true, "You don't have to get ready if you stay ready." Always be ready for your opportunity. Retirement Tour – Dan Patrick announces he plans to continue the Dan Patrick Show for the next four-and-a-half years with the intention of retiring at the end of 2027.

Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show, presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text Hawk to 66866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right. You'll also receive details about how my book The Pursuit, of excellence will help you become a more effective leader. Text talk to 666866. Now on tonight's

featured leader, the legendary Dan Patrick is a Hall of Fame sports broadcaster and host of the Dan Patrick show. Prior to that, he spent 18 years at ESPN hosting the 11 o'clock sports center, affectionately known as the big show. Dan went on to become. the three-time host of the Olympics for NBC Sports. He's also been cast to act in many Adam Sandler movies. During this wide-ranging and enlightening conversation, which Dan gives me tons of advice, which is great, we discuss what makes someone a great interviewer

as well as a great guest. Then he shares how he builds such great rapport or with both his colleagues, the people he works with, as well as the people he interviews. He shares why he left ESPN and how he became such great friends with Adam Sandler. We talk about that and so much more. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy this master class from Dan Patrick. Dan Patrick, great to have you here on the Learning Leaders Show.

Welcome. Welcome. Thank you. So uncommon commonality, man. I had season tickets to UD basketball games growing up. Top six, Nigell Knight, Alex Robertson, Bill Yule. I didn't go to UD, but I went to all the basketball games growing up, man. It's great to talk to another Dayton guy. Why didn't you go to Dayton?

Well, I played football in college, and they didn't really have a great Division I football or even a Division I football program. So I actually went to Miami out of high school to play, and I ran into another quarterback who was a little bit better than me my same age, Ben Rathosberger. So I had to transfer and finish at OU. But yeah, follow Ohio guy, man.

Oh, okay. I spent a few Halloweens at Ohio University. What do you think? I don't remember to be able to think. But I was told it was fun at Ohio University. You didn't end up in the drunk tank or arrested anything? No, no, no, no, no. But I think the cat's den, if that sounds right, a bar burned down when we were there.

Nice, nice. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Yeah, we had fun times. It was actually Halloween became a weekend where the coaches would always schedule us an away game. So if we got back, it was way late, but we still tried our best to make the most of each of those nights. But you know what football coaches are? I had friends who went to OU and Miami of Ohio. But you know what? People at Miami get upset

when you say Miami of Ohio, since Miami of Ohio is there before the University of Miami, I believe. Yeah, I think they said, get a little territorial there. Yeah, they get kind of weird about that. I try to say, hey, whatever. If you've heard of us, that's great. I'll take it. But anyway, It's awesome to have you, man. I was recently watching an interview you did with another Ohio guy, Joey Vado. And I've loved your Joey Vado interviews over the years. I'm a Reds fan. I think he's a really thoughtful guy.

But what it really highlights to me is the fact that you have such a disarming style that gets people to open up. And I was curious as somebody who interviews people for a living, what is your overall philosophy on interviewing and getting people to open up? so much that I feel like when they come on your show, it's the best interviews they do. And that was why I was most curious to learn from you. So what's your overall thought process on your interviewing style and philosophy? I don't treat each interview differently from the standpoint of start, middle, and end. But I do treat each individual different because he's got a different personality than Joe Evato or Shaquille O'Neal or Charles Barkley. but you're still looking for the same thing.

I want you to tell me stories. I want you to make it seem as if or feel as if you're eavesdropping as a member of the audience. You're listening to a conversation that maybe you shouldn't be, but you're glad you are, but I want you relaxed. I don't do gotcha journalism. If it's a tough question, it's a tough question. Sometimes I ask tougher questions to the people I really know than those that I don't know. because those who do know me know that I don't have ill intent.

I have to get an answer. I'm a conduit to my audience. Whatever it is that I got to get out of you, I'm giving it to my audience. Because ultimately, that's who I'm entertaining. And I've had subjects who have said, hey, can you give me the questions beforehand? And I said, no. Hey, well, you can't ask this. Oh, I can ask it.

You don't have to answer it. Don't give me rules, parameters prior to doing this. I've told like Barry Bonds, I just said, just don't do it. You know, he didn't want to talk about steroids many, many, many years ago. I said, all right, then don't do it. And we canceled the interview right before he was going to come on. I'm just like, no, that's not how we do it here. I'm either having you on or having a conversation.

Hopefully you give me at least 10 minutes. But I'm curious. I listen to your answers. And that's another thing I tell interviewers. Listen to somebody's answer because it's amazing what they'll tell you when they don't want to tell you. A lot of these athletes are coaches or managers or celebrities, they go on shows. They just sort of want to get through unscathed. They want to look good, sound good, be fun, and somebody will go, okay, I'm going to watch that show or buy that product. I want to push you a

little bit. I want to see how you do with a question that's quick when I say why, or how, where. I find a lot of interviewers load up. They ask a question, answer a question, ask a question. That's death. Just ask the question. We're so worried about being insecure or look at or viewed as insecure. Like he doesn't even know the answer. Most of the time I know what the answer is or could be, but my audience doesn't.

I don't want my person I'm interviewing to go, yes or no. I want him to be, you know, why do you think you're able to be successful again? against them or hey you're so successful against them and it seems like you guys always do the right thing so how are you so successful I got to do is say why are you successful against them that's all but we get caught up like oh my god I got to sound like I know what I'm talking about and I used to I went through this but then I got to a point where it wasn't good conversation and I don't do that with my wife or my kids I don't say how was your day Because your day was probably pretty good.

I'm going to guess, but how was your day? And just say, how was your day, hon? That's all. But open-ended questions, that's a must. You must have open-ended questions, therefore I get you talking. I never want you to give me a yes or no. It feels like you have a genuine curiosity in your guest. Yes.

Is that part of your guest selection? Hey, I don't, I'm not curious about him or her. What do you think? There is curiosity or I wouldn't have mine. There's just no reason to have somebody on. if you're going through the motions and then it sounds formulaic and I don't want that because it might be I'm talking about something and then my guest comes on well why not take the topic I was talking about and then bring it to them and then get them started that way you're a batter at the plate

I'm not quite sure what you're throwing it's going to be around the plate but I don't know if I'm going to get the bat off my shoulder I want you to get the bat off your shoulder I want you to take a swing at whatever I'm giving you and know that there will be follow-up pitches. There could be a brushback pitch. There could be one in the dirt. There could be one that you don't even see coming. But that's sort of the philosophy that I have every single day with every guest. What makes an awesome guest?

Somebody who tells stories, somebody who is relaxed and not measuring their words. And when I ask you a tough question or what could be perceived as a tough question, you answer it. You know, the best you can because there's certain things that you tiptoe, there's trepidation. I don't want somebody to put themselves in a position where I've backed them into a corner and you come out swinging. Scotty Pippin was on the show. This is a while ago. And Scotty was talking about Phil Jackson. And he was, he basically called him a racist.

So he calls his coach a racist. And none of the national media picked up on. and Scotty looking at Phil Jackson this way. They were talking about something else that had to do with Michael Jordan. And I go, what are we doing here? But Michael Jordan gets clicks. Phil Jackson is one of the greatest coaches of all time. And I'm going, wait, Scotty Pippen, Hall of Famer is calling, I think,

Phil Jackson, a racist. So I had my guys. I said, get Scotty on. And so I was fortunate that he came on. And I was able to ask him that. And, you know, did you want to clarify what you said about Phil Jackson? And it was basically no, that he was calling him a racist. I didn't care about what he thought about Michael Jordan or the last dance.

This to me was right there in front of us. And then no one was picking up on it. But I thought that I owed it to him to let him understand how I perceive that. And he basically confirmed what I thought. Wow. What's your prep process like? well I am prepping now and I've got you know for tomorrow but it's just reading I don't like to have too much I like to have enough enough that will lead me into things there are times I'm looking for just a nugget

and it could be I didn't realize this but and then now we got something where we're starting off differently than you normally do and it gets back to I want to want you challenged. I want to entertain, but athletes want to be challenged. There's competition. And I view it as a competition, friendly, but I view it as a competition when I'm asking questions. I'm going after something. And a lot of times I don't have my miners helmet on. I can't see in the cave, but I keep going. And that's what you have to do. If you sense something's there, then go. Keep going. Just a little bit. Just a little bit. And then a lot of times, you know, you'll find gold. By competition, you mean you want to get athletes to want to do better on your show

than another or you are competing against other interviewers? What do you mean by competition? It's me against you. And are you going to give me something? How do I get something out of you? Athletes get interviewed more than anybody else in America. And my job is to kind of get you to think differently when you're on my show, knowing that I'm going to say something. I'm going to quiz you on something. I'm going to question you. I'm going to push you a little bit. That's the competition. No, I don't, I don't compare myself with other interviewers. Some are your favorite interviewers. Well, I like Howard Stern because of his prep work. I think Howard has great research. Howard sometimes wants to find out the answer or tell you the answer

before you tell his audience the answer. And you can't do that. Because then you might get a yes or no answer. But his prep work, that he'll dig up nuggets, and he's very, very curious. That's really important as well. How he phrases his questions,

you know, I could find fault with that. But at the end, what is he getting out of these people? They go on there wanting to please, Howard. That's really important. And so the end, end result is he still gets a great interview. But he's created an environment, a platform where you

go on there, you don't want to disappoint Howard. I always thought that he did a wonderful job. Andrea Kramer, who is in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, great writer and reporter. She is wonderful. Textbook. Textbook. That you're asking questions and you're getting out of the way. You're getting your ego out of the way. Bryant Gumble on real sports. Bob Coddy. Bob Cod. can be, you know, really, really like boom right there to the intersection. And I've, great pride in knowing and seeing Bob do that on a very, very high level. So those are just some of the people. There's, there's a lot of people do it well, but there are a lot of people who think that their way of doing it is ask, answer, and ask. And it'll drive you crazy now

when you start to listen to shows and you're going to hear that over and over and over. And you're going to be like, just shut up, just ask the question. I know, I do it. I do it myself, Dan. I'm critiquing you in my head as we do this. Of course you are. And I'm thinking of that as I ask these questions. But I don't have all the answers, but I know what the answers are.

I don't always do it correctly. So I'm guilty of it. But I'm always thinking, you're asking that question. How would I have asked that question? So like I'm in a space that you don't want to be in because it's every day. It's every moment where you're thinking, how do you ask the right question, right time? I read about Howard Stern's influence on you, notably how he brings other characters into his show. You do that.

What's your overall philosophy on bringing other characters into your show? I wanted to have what would amount to a studio audience. that I could get reaction. The thing I love about radio, more than anything, it's the purest form of the media. Because I can say something and now you can visualize it. You let me in your car. You could call the show if you want. You can email the show.

You can text the show. There is reciprocation there. But I love being in your head. I love being that voice that's in your head. I'm in your car. It's an intimate setting. And I wanted to have a studio audience with my guys, the Dan Nets, who are responding in real time. If I say something, I make a mistake or something's funny or something serious, then I get their reaction right away.

Or I can get their reaction. And they're all different personalities. And you just get a cross-section of opinions. And to me, I didn't want to keep hearing my voice. I was tired of my voice but I thought collaboratively we could have voices and you can still distinguish

between my voice and theirs but it kind of cuts down on the amount of time you're hearing me I don't want to have you just be like zoning out because you're hearing the same voice with the same sort of repetition it also feels like you've take care of your guys really well

the Danettes seemed their integral part of the show they become stars in their own right for all of your fans and they feel very loyal to you. You seem like I've given a masterclass on how to take care of your people, which I think is a more broader leadership philosophy that others could learn from. How do you think about loyalty

and taking care of your people? Well, I think it comes naturally, but it should come instinctually that you just take care of people. I grew up in a family of six. We didn't have a lot. We took care of each other. we still take care of each other.

And that's my philosophy. My wife is the same way. Very, very, very giving and putting herself first. You know, I tell these guys that it's a democracy until it's a dictatorship. Like I want it to be a democracy, but it has to be a dictatorship. Then it's going to be in that moment or for this issue, this topic, whatever it might be. But I want to make sure they know at the end of the day, through all of this, bottom line, I'm always going to have your back.

I'm always going to take care of you. You're always important to me. And I never want them to lose that. And there are times that they do because there are real feelings here. There are times when it's good content, but there are other times when it's a real conversation on the show. And I got to be careful. I've been doing this for 40 years.

They haven't been. And you got to have a thick skin. And if you make a mistake, somebody's laughing at you, understand it's it's just part of the show it's okay if i can take the bullets you can take the bullets but understand we'll all be in this together how do you manage the tension behind the scenes where people almost play a character on air and then off air maybe someone's feelings did get hurt based on something you said and you're like hey it's part of the show or it's part of the deal how do you manage that tension you're the leader of the show you're running it how do you manage

that. So you just did it. I know. I realize it as I was saying. I can tell. I can see your face. Did you see my face? I'm just trying to move on, Dan. Okay? Just answer the question. What was the question? How you manage the tension behind the scenes if they get their feelings hurt or like, right? You're the leader. Right there. You could have done it. How do you manage the tension behind the scenes? Man, I love that you're giving me this real-time coaching. I feel like I'm in class with Dan Patrick, which is the best. Anyway, I am so passionate about interviews. I am.

So it comes from a good place. I just want you to know because you have curiosity and you did your homework here. You'll get better answers with shorter questions. You just will. But, you know, I will pull people aside. Sometimes you don't realize if you've stepped on somebody's toes or you went too far or what they're interpreting. Because I can say, oh, come on. well, if you don't hear it that way, I can't be telling you how you're supposed to feel.

I can tell you how the topic was meant to be or the question or having fun with you. But there are times when, like Fritzy is Fritzy. Fritzy is who he is on the air is who he is off the air. Paulie is probably a jerk on the air. And I don't want to say off the air, but, you know, Pauly plays the villain quite well. Seton's same way. And Marvin is the same guy. Like that's what I love about them. I, I, because people always say, are those guys really like that? I'm like, yes. If you're around Fritzy, you'd be like, oh my God, he is really like this. But that makes it easier to do a show. I'm not, the first time I went to

ESPN, March of 89. And I remember being in the studio and I saw Dick Vitow. And Dick Vitow was just quiet. It was during the commercial break. And they were, doing updates on the NCAA tournament. I go, wait, that's Dick Vitale? He wasn't doing it, so it's none of that. But then the red light went on and then Dickie B performed. And I was like, oh my God, because I'd never seen Dick Vitale,

you know, muted, sedated. Chris Berman was Chris Berman off the air as he was on the air. He's loud. That's who he is. Oberman was the same guy on the air as he was off the air. And most of the guys are that because it's easier to do. You're not an actor, but you're trying to still have fun. And I think that there's, I always tell my guys it's about content.

Can we make, what are we creating today? What did we create in that last segment? What do we get out of that interview? Like keep questioning them just so they keep questioning themselves. And I want them to be better. But, you know, it's, I don't want to be too. overbearing that I have all the I want them figuring these things out instead of me telling them what they're supposed to figure out. What was the magic behind the big show?

Look at you. Look at you. What's the magic? I don't think we knew that it was magic. I don't think we tried to be something other than ourselves. And that's that's really hard to be. You know, somebody says, oh, just be yourself. Why don't, if I don't know who I am, how can I be myself. It took me a long time to be myself or understand what that meant. I was still stuck in the CNN where I learned how to report and it was all about the product in front of you. Not about you, but what you're, you know, who you represent and, you know, if you're doing highlights. And then when I got to ESPN, I really, everybody was having fun, but I was still sort of buttoned up. And then, one night, I would watch every sports center I did.

I'd get the tape and I'd go upstairs and I watched the entire episode because I was looking for things I didn't do well. And that's not what you should be doing. You should look at the positives, but I was looking at, I mean, minute stuff, the timing of a home run call to the ball hitting the bat. Like I was, I was, you know, micromanaging. And then Keith Oberman walked by me, And he said, you know, will you stop?

You got the bleepin job. And he was right. I had this prime job, 11 o'clock sports center. But it was like I was still auditioning. And after that, I allowed myself to have more fun and be more of myself. The radio show is a true reflection of me and my personality. And I'm very lucky with that. I don't have a boss

and we want to have a guest on, we have a guest on. We want to talk about something, we talk about it. If there's things that have nothing to do with sports. So having that luxury and being able to accentuate it was I think really important for Keith and I. We knew sports.

We could write. We broke stories. But we also, I think, could have a subtle, sneaky way of having fun with the highlights. And I don't think too many people, people did that back then. How did you plan for the big show Sports Center with Olderman? As far as...

What does it look like the three hours before the show? Oh, gosh. We start riding at five. Okay. Six hours. Yeah. So it's five o'clock. And then you get to be around 9, 9.30.

You're watching all the games that you can because you're doing the highlights live. There will be times when you get the information while you're reading. the introduction to the game itself, and you get what is called a shot sheet, a piece of paper. And on that, somebody will hand it to you, and they'll go, you know, Red's in Milwaukee tonight, and then you get the piece of paper

that has all the information. And now I haven't seen it. 75% of the time we would do highlights. We didn't know what was in the highlight. And it really tested you because you had to be able to think on the fly, it's live TV, get the names right, and that's why there was such a high that you had.

When you were done with that 11 o'clock sports center, it's like you could fly because it took so much energy to do it and it would take the energy out of you by the end of, you know, an hour show. But it was fun. And we didn't know if we were popular, but that's, I didn't do it to be popular. I did it because I didn't have another job to fall back on. Like, this is all I knew how to do.

And I was getting to do that at sports. center. And Keith and I never ever discussed what we were going to talk about. Never gave a, hey, I got a punchline. Never. It was never, ever scripted, ever. Because we wanted the natural reaction. And it was Keith and myself, a floor director, and then you'd have three camera people. If we could make them laugh, then we thought we could make our audience laugh. But by no means did we set out to revolutionize or change or anything, it just sort of happened. We blew up at the right time. What made you leave? I left because I wanted to be able to spend more time at home. I think in the business, it kind of nurtures being selfish. It creates a selfish environment. You have to think of

yourself and I got to do this and I got to get ahead. And if I don't, then somebody else, else and there's competition, tremendous competition at Sports Center. And I, you know, we have four kids. They were four kids under the age of seven. And I was working second shift. And here I am, you know, going to the NBA finals and the World Series and, you know, covering all these things and the SB's and, you know, we're being featured. And my wife's raising our kids.

And I just remember that morning I was going to go up and sign five your contract. And she said, you know, the kids are going to be out of the house. They were nine through 15. And I said, oh, no, you know, but I didn't see it. She saw it. And I just remember driving up to ESPN, 55 minutes. And I went in, went upstairs. And my boss said, all right, so what are you going to do, take it or leave it? I said, I'm going to leave it. And he didn't hear me say it, because nobody turns down ESPN. Nobody leaves ESPN. And he said, wait, what? I said, no, I'm going to leave it. And I just remember the look on his face like, okay, you know what you're doing. And I didn't. And I went downstairs, went outside. And it was just a beautiful sunny day. I called my wife. I said,

hon, I didn't sign the contract. He's like, okay. I said, hon, I'm going to leave ESPN. She goes, She goes, if we have to sell the house, we'll sell the house. Boom. Could have knocked me over with a feather. Because she saw what was real. I lived in a fantasy world. I wanted to be able to do my show close to home and just be around. I have three daughters.

It was really important to be that father figure. And I was missing out on all of it. And that played an integral role. because you can't say I left ESPN to go to a better job because I did the show for three years in my attic at my house. The Dan Nets would come over every morning, but it brought us closer together. And it's the best decision I ever made by far.

And then eventually I reached out and NBC brought me in and I got to do some things there, but I wouldn't have got that opportunity without ESPN. There were a lot of wonderful people there. But I had just sort of outgrown it. And maybe they had outgrown me. I don't know. But I just wasn't getting better.

I was thinking how selfish of me. And that played a large role in me just saying I'm going home. And I'm very, very fortunate I did. How do you feel about ESPN right now? What do you mean about ESPN? I mean, ESPN is that's a broad question. What do you think of their strength? strategy, what they're showing on TV, their sports center overall, because you used to do it, right?

What do you think? Well, they've been trying to figure out things for a long time. Yeah. Because it was right in front of them where they had figured it out. You had a ton of talent. They were doing SportsCenter. They were making hundreds of millions of dollars. And then all of a sudden, it just felt like sometimes you ask, who's,

Who's steering the boat? I thought you were. Oh, I thought you were. And then, you know, you crash. I don't follow it as much. I just, I got too close. I mean, I was in the cauldron. I don't want to be there anymore. I don't want to solve any of their problems. I didn't want to go back. I went back for the anniversary. That was it. I think the 40th anniversary. But even then I went kicking and screaming because I can't live up to what I was. you know whatever somebody thinks that I was it might be even bigger than that I can't be that because somebody will watch and go all right I don't get why he was a big deal

I mean yeah in the moment in those years at ESPN we were something unique and that's why that's why it you know it exploded but I don't like opening up the scrapbook and going man I miss the days at ESPN I don't I miss the people at ESPN but we weren't embraced there either. That's something that you should know that Keith and I were not embraced.

They didn't want us to be stars. Why? They didn't want another Chris Berman is what member of management told me. They didn't want somebody that they couldn't keep under their thumb. And it's not like Keith and I were trying to lead a revolution here. We just wanted to do our show. And I think if they had left a,

alone to do our show because they thought we were getting too big. They thought that we were acting too important. We called ourselves the big show, but we mocked ourselves. We didn't know who was watching. And Ed Sullivan used to say, you know, it's a really big show. And I remember Keith said one night, you know, welcome to the big show. And that was it. But other anchors were like, well, wait a minute.

Why are they, they're at Sports Center. So we got yelled at by management saying, you have to say, This is Sports Center. So we got called in to a room with a lot of wood paneling, and they were banging the desk with their fist. And I just remember that we would call it the big show. And they said, for now on, it's this is sports center. We get out of this meeting.

It's not a meeting. Really, it's a hearing. And I just remember looking at Keith. Keith's like bleep him, man. and I had three kids at the time and I'm like, I can't lose this job. And he said, no, bleep him. We'll give him this is SportsCenter.

So that night, we over-emphasized this is SportsCenter. They made an ad campaign out of it. This is SportsCenter ad campaign. So good. Yeah. Not at the time it wasn't. Not at the time.

Because you're thinking everybody else is having fun with us who's watching except us because management was, they just didn't want us to be more than just a sports center anchor. Yeah, as my boss, Steve Bornstein said, you're just effing talent. And he would always say that to me. And I like Steve. But he will admit this. He will admit that he said that. You're just effing talent.

So finally one day He said it and I go Do you think that you could do my job? He's like No I said because I think I could do your job So can we stop saying You're just effing talent

His management would look at you like Oh God what do you want now Talent Diva I had one of my bosses Mark Shapiro He will acknowledge this He said that I was over the hill and nobody would hire me

me when I was going in for a contract negotiation. And I, of course, it was like, all right, I'll sign it, not realizing that he's saying nobody is going, would sign me, but please sign and stay here at ESPN. I mean, you had this adversarial relationship where it was management and talent. And it was uncomfortable at times. How did you end up in so many Adam Sandler movies? Well, as Sandler tells the story, he was going to have Keith Oberman in Happy Gilmore, playing the announcer role that went to Vern Lindquist.

And then I guess a couple of days before they were going to shoot in Vancouver, Keith decided that he was not going to fly. I didn't know this. And then I saw Sandler at a Knicks game. I don't know how long after that. But I just said, you know, hey, Sandman. and then he was during halftime

of the Knicks game and he was sitting by himself he goes Danny P and I said how you doing he goes your boy screwed me over

he said they're going to have to be a little more specific and so he told me the story I said next time you need somebody I'll be there for you he goes Danny you're in my next movie

you're going to be a police officer you're going to have a mustache and your name is Danny McEffin Patrick so So I was in the longest yard. I play a police officer with a mustache. And I'm right at the beginning of the movie arresting Sandler.

And we've been friends ever since then. I think it's 20 movies. And he's become a very, very good friend. He wrote the forward to the football book that I wrote. He didn't even know what a forward was. I think you just wrote about the Jets, right? Yeah, I told him. I said, what are you passionate about?

He goes, Danny, I hate the Patriots. but I don't want to write about that. I said, well, then write about the Jets. He goes, okay. And then he goes, how long is it forward? I go, just write until you stop writing. And then he wrote it in a day and then sent it back. I go, that's great.

So he's got the forward to the football book that I wrote. I love that. It has nothing to do with you or anything. It's not like any forward I've ever seen. It's just about his love of the Jets. That's it. Well, that's sort of the way the book is. Joel Cohen writes for The Simpsons.

and he got a hold of me. He was going to have me in The Simpsons. I'm going to be an announcer for Homer rock skipping contest. And it's coming out, I think, in December. And he said, hey, we wrote a cameo for you. And then we started talking about the butt fumble. We started talking about the tuck rule. We started talking about the whizzinator.

I'm like all these topics. And then we were playing verbal tennis, like just back and forth with things. And then he goes, hey, I'm going to. write all these things down. Would you want to write a book together? And I said, sure. Like, sure, I'll do it. But more importantly, when's the Simpson episode? I didn't think there was going to be a book. And then he came back with stuff. And then he goes, hey, I got friends. I got friends who all have things they want to get off their chest. And I need you to come up with 10 more things. So then I'd give like 15 more things. It was just like we threw it into the blender

and just poured it out. And a lot of these books, most of these books about the NFL are serious. It's about the gladiators and the moments, the memories. We wanted to still have this about the gladiators and the moments and the memories, but have fun with them. And that was the approach to the occasionally accurate annals of football. The occasionally accurate annals of football, NFL's greatest players, plays, scandals and screw ups, plus stuff we totally made up.

It's an amazing title. Well, more about just go with it with Adam Sandler. Dave Matthews is my favorite musician. What was it like acting alongside Dave Matthews? I was told Dave had no idea who I was. Had no idea about sports. Guys in his band, his drummer. Yeah, Carter's a big sports fan.

But first time I meet Dave, we're in Hawaii. Everybody's out at a family dinner. And I'm seated across from Dave Matthews. And Sandler goes, Danny? So he's introducing me to Dave, Danny, I went to shake his hand, knock my beer over on his lap. So by the end of the night, we were doing karaoke. And then we ended up doing that scene together where I play a nightclub owner with

Jennifer Aniston and Nicole Kidman. Classic. But he's really funny. He's very sharp, great sense of humor. and I just, I enjoyed hanging out with him because, you know, he'd say, I don't have any sports questions to ask you. And I said, that's okay. I think, don't worry about it. You know, we can talk music. We can talk whatever you want. Don't I talk sports. He goes, okay, because I don't know anything about it. And I went to a couple of his shows. I went to see him one time in Hartford, Connecticut.

I'm like, hey, I'm going to come see the show. He goes, all right, so go backstage. And I can tell that he's uncomfortable because it's my wife and my daughter and me. And he doesn't know what to talk to me about. So he goes, hey, come here. And we walk down and we go into Carter's dressing room. Carter, you know who this is? He goes, yeah, Stan Patrick. He goes, all right, can you guys talk? And Dave went to his dressing room. So I was like, all right, thanks, Dave. That's it. I love it. One more, Dan. Let's say you're meeting with somebody who's a recent college grad. perhaps they graduated from Full Sail University where we could get into that, but you teach broadcasting. But let's say they graduated and they want to do good in the world.

They're not sure what they want to do. What are some general pieces of life slash career advice you give to people who ask you that question? I haven't been asked that question, but I do tell my students that, you know, we give you hands-on experience. I can help you over the wall. What you do when you get over the wall is you. But we want you to understand how a newsroom works. We want you to understand diversity. We want you to understand certain words that you can say,

not say the approach to being a professional, how to dress, how to act, how to ask questions, presence, how to put on makeup. Like all these things, we want you sort of a package deal ready to go into the workforce. And I place calls to news directors. If I can help you get that job, because it's my name.

It's the Dan Patrick School of Sportscasting. Your degree is in sportscasting. And there's no university that guarantees you anything. My kids, two went to USC and two went to Denison. Well, nobody guaranteed them a job. We're doing our best to guarantee you a job. And that is, once you graduate, now the work begins. I mean, you have to have a certain amount of talent.

But we always say, look, you might not be ready for, in front of the camera. Maybe you should look at being a director, producer. Maybe you want to be a cameraman. Like, you can still be in the business and have a long career. But everybody gets caught up. Just about everybody I worked with wanted to be on air. And then they became a producer, coordinating producer, an associate producer. And I said, there's no shame in that. It's just certain people can do it and certain people can't. But have them understand that you have to be ready to go. If we get you this opportunity. And as you know this, being in the business, it's right place, right time. And what do you do with that one chance? And if you take advantage of it, it could change your

life. And it's the most rewarding thing I've ever done in this business, because you're changing people's lives. They're getting a job to be a sportscaster. Now, it might be Macon, Georgia, Bozeman, Montana. But I said, everybody has a place where they were from. It's up to you to now where do you want to go with that? Be humble, be hungry. That's my motto. Because if you're both, you'll succeed. Don't let somebody outwork you,

but also humility will go a long way because your replacement is not too far behind you and always remember that. So good. The most recent book, which is hilarious, is called the occasionally accurate annals of football, the NFL's greatest players, plays, scandals and screw ups,

plus stuff we totally made up. As mentioned, Adam Sandler wrote the foreword, which is hilarious. The whole thing is, Dan, thank you so much for doing this, man. I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress. So much fun for me. Okay. And hopefully I didn't come off as professorial here and a know-it-all, but I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to interviewing.

And I see people who have that ability, that capacity to be an even better interviewer. And you only get in your own way. That's it. And people get to a certain level and they don't want to critique you. I mean, when's the last time somebody gave you advice, critiqued you? Probably been a while. Yeah. Hardly ever.

I yearn. As a former athlete, as you know, we've yearn for coaching and feedback. We watched film of every rep of every practice, Dan. Everything we did, we got a grade, obviously of the games too. So I love and crave feedback. I try to get it. It's just hard to get. So to get it from Dan Patrick is obviously like,

that's Mount Rushmore. It's as good as it gets. So I'm super appreciative, man. But you're interviewing the questions when they were shorter and direct make it, you're more likely to get something off the cut. If you give me time to reload, then you're not going to get that spontaneity. And your questions got shorter and more direct and they got better. Therefore, the challenge was on me to like, oh, I got to come up with an answer. And I think that's really important. Stay curious with. it, do your research. Never ever get caught where you make a mistake and you go, oh, or I didn't know that, where it's something obvious. It'll happen. But the more curious you are of whoever you

have on, and what does your audience want to know? Like, what's interesting? Sometimes when you're interested, then your audience is interested. When you're excited, then they're excited. Because if they buy into you, then they're buying into what you believe they're going to be interested in. It's a fascinating world that we live in, and to be able to take advantage of that on a daily basis, a weekly basis, a monthly basis, we're very, very, very fortunate. And I never ever want to lose sight of that where you mail in an interview, where you go, yeah, I got this. To this day, I'm constantly talking to Pauley, my producer. What do you think? What do you like? What's different? What's unique? What do people care about? Why are we having them on? Like, those are the things that are

really important. Keep questioning. And if you have somebody who's honest with you, have them really be honest with you. Because my wife is honest with me. It hurts sometimes, but it's helpful all the time. Do you think one question on that, Dan, when you have the longer question and it gives them time to think, do you think that could sometimes create a better answer? I haven't found that. I just find that, like my best question, ever. Why? How? Because, you know,

I, if I can give you time to think, then I'm going to give you time to think about putting up a little bit of a wall. I don't want you to have a wall. I want it to be, you guys, at 18 sacks, what did you take advantage of? Like, not, what did you take advantage of? I know they had some offensive linemen who were bang, blah, blah,

but no, no. what did you take advantage of? Get right to the question, to the point. And then I find that you just want them talking. That's the key. Get your guest talk. So good. Thanks again, man.

This is amazing. I really appreciate it, Dan. Keep being curious. All right? I will. Keep being curious. All right. Thank you.

Appreciate it. Thank you, buddy. All right. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. if you are, send me a note, Ryan at learning leader.com. Let me know some of the cool things you learned from this conversation with the Hall of Famer, Dan Patrick, a few takeaways from my notes. First and foremost, before I even get to my notes, how cool is it to be getting direct, honest

coaching from one of the greatest broadcasters of all time? I don't take that for granted, and I had to sit for a minute after this conversation and just realized how cool that. was. So I hope you enjoyed it as well. I really appreciate how direct and honest he is. Okay, my notes. What makes a great interview? They tell stories. It feels like you're eavesdropping on their conversation. Dan's so good at this. He takes you inside. He disarms them with this humor. He makes them feel very comfortable to open up and then ask shorter questions, something that I've thought about for a very long time and and working on. Even if I don't agree with it 100% of the time, it probably would be helpful a lot of the time.

Then is life slash career advice. Be humble. Be humble. Be hungry. Have humility. This one was good. Be ready to go when your opportunity presents itself. The old adage rings true, quote, you don't have to get ready if you stay ready.

Always be ready for your opportunity. You never know when it comes. And when it does, we got to make sure we're ready to go. then taking care of your people. Dan has had the Danettes, his supporting cast, his crew with them for many years. He listens to his teammates. He makes them part of his show. He truly cares for them.

In return, they're there for him every day. Very loyal. Now, this seems obvious. Yeah, of course, take care of your people. They'll be loyal, but it's not. We've seen high levels of turnover. And in Dan's case, you notice that his people want to continue working for him because of how he treats them and includes them and listens to them.

I think we could all learn a lesson from that. The evidence really supports Dan's approach works. Once again, I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two. Hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader Show with the great Dan Patrick, I think it will help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that and you continue to go to Ryanhawk.net, which launches you. and to Apple Podcasts.

And once you're there, you write a thoughtful review and rate the show, hopefully five stars. And by doing that, you are giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will always be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk this soon. Can't wait.