The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 558: Introducing Our New Book, "The Score That Matters," (With Brook Cupps)

Episode Date: December 14, 2023

Order The Score That Matters NOW. CLICK HERE. In The Score That Matters, Ryan Hawk and Brook Cupps show that the internal score is what matters most—it reveals whether we are living in alignment with our purpose and values. Offering both descriptive and prescriptive advice and anecdotes, The Score That Matters will help you unlock true fulfillment and happiness by discovering your purpose, identifying your values, creating critical behaviors, and living them faithfully every day in all aspects of your life. "The big question about how people behave is whether they've got an Inner Scorecard or an Outer Scorecard. It helps if you can be satisfied with an Inner Scorecard." - Warren Buffet – The inner scorecard is about eliminating comparison with others and living in alignment with what's most important to you. Your values and the behaviors to match those values. The inner scorecard eliminates the comparison of things. How to build trust? Laugh together, cry together, suffer together (do hard things). Resume virtues versus Eulogy virtues. We'll get caught up in living for our resume (promotions, money, objects) if we're not intentional. We think it's better to live for your eulogy virtues (the impact you had on people, fulfilling your purpose, living in alignment with your true values) Why a strong purpose beats a good plan: we explain how a strong purpose erases obstacles, is never about you, and is highlighted by considering death. Why being the greatest is a mirage: While greatness is a process that is attainable for all, we share why becoming the greatest is a destination that no one can reach. How to navigate the tricky art of building trust: Throughout 25 years of teaching and coaching Brook has refined the trust-building process to 3 simple actions every leader can use. How to fight the poison of comparison: Our focus on a consistent process over the societal pursuit of results seems contradictory to excellence but just may lay the foundation for its attainment. Why self-awareness is not a solo flight: The feedback we seek from special people in our life, our foxhole, reminds us that we are tougher together. Why team captains are overrated: Brook connects how the shared ownership of a team is best when all members assume the responsibility of upholding the standards. How plain and simple can bore you right to excellence: We like to complicate success, but we point back to a consistent return to the fundamentals. Brook originally learned about creating and living his core values from Coach Dick Bennett's "Pillars of Success." Brook's values are: Tough, Passionate, Unified, and Thankful. My values are: Thoughtful, Thankful, Curious, and Consistent. Foxhole friends are disagreeable givers. They are kind enough to give you honest feedback. And you do the same for them. Thankful Thursdays Send a text message, email, or handwritten note to three people you're thankful for every Thursday. Push the pace... Full-court pressing and always running a fast break on offense is living up to Brook's value of speaking and acting with urgency (unified). How Brook coaches his team to play: "Our anchor defensively is no comfort, no vision. We want you to never be comfortable. And we want the same thing offensively. We say simple and together, but we think of pressing you offensively too. We don't want you to be comfortable. We want you to be on your heels."

Hey, it's Ryan. Thank you for being here for this special episode to introduce our new book, The Score That Matters. I said our because I had the distinct pleasure to write this book with my mentor and great friend, Brooke Cups. When I was speaking with economics professor and bestselling author Tyler Cowan, I asked him why he wrote his most recent book with a co-author. And he said, if you have an opportunity, to work with someone who is awesome and brilliant, who will cooperate with you. You should always do that. Drop everything and do that. Brooke and I sat down together almost two years ago and spent eight hours filming what we thought was going to be a video course. I had someone sitting next to us transcribing every word we said during those eight hours. And when I looked through the transcription, I thought, this is a book.

And so that was the genesis of this book, The Score That Matters. I truly think it's the greatest thing I've ever written. A lot of that is because of the influence of Brooke and how he's helped me. This is a book that will help you create and live your core values. And I think that is the foundation of living by the score that matters most, of living by that inner scoreboard. This comes from a quote from Warren Buffett when he said. The big question about how people behave is whether they've got an inner scorecard or an outer scorecard. It helps if you can be satisfied with an inner scorecard.

And through the course of writing this book with Brooke, I have become much more satisfied with my inner scorecard. And I think if you read it and implement it, it will make you a better husband or wife, mom or dad, and absolutely better at your place of work. You'll live more in alignment with what's most important to you, not what society tells you what should be important to you. And to me, I am most attracted to those people who have done the work on themselves to show up better for the people they lead. And that's what this book will help you do.

At the end of each chapter, there are exercises so you can implement right now, immediately what you're learning. So if you want to do this work, and I suggest you do, because I think it will make you better, go to learningleader.com and pre-order the score that matters. Or go to Amazon. It's right there. You can pre-order the score that matters. If you do go to learningleader.com, there are bonuses that we will provide you for investing in this book, in this project. I truly believe it will change your life if you let it. So go to learningleader.com, pre-order The Score That Matters. Okay, here we go.

Welcome to The Learning Leaders Show, presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here, especially today, to announce our next book, The Score That Matters. My guest is my friend, mentor, and co-author for the book that we have written together called The Score That Matters. Brooke is a leadership teacher and the coach of the Centerville High School Boys basketball team in 2021. He led this team to the first state championship in school history. We spent the past 18 months writing together, learning together to make this the most practical and useful book for you. And during this conversation, we cover some of the elements of the book, like why a strong purpose beats a good plan.

How to navigate the tricky art of building trust. How to fight the poison of comparison. How to create and live your core values. The importance of your foxhole friends and the role they play in your life. We talk about that and so much more. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy this conversation with Brooke Cups. All right, dude. So good to have you back, man.

Welcome. Glad to be here, man. Thanks for having me. It's a little different since we've spent an amazing amount of time. together, whether it's in person on Zoom or sending drafts back and forth over the last 18 months. But it's cool that this project has been just one of the, for me, I think one of the coolest that I've ever got to do because you, I view you as a huge mentor of mine. And to get to write a book with a mentor is just a gift. So first, I'd just like to say thank you, man. It's been such a

pleasure. Now we're just getting started with all the promotion and sharing this thing. I'm excited. Yeah, me too. It was definitely a different experience. That's for sure. I'm grateful you ask and we were able to find a way to get it done because it was as much of a learning experience as it was anything. It was pretty cool. A lot of stuff I didn't expect, a lot of wild things that happened along the way, but definitely cool. It's funny when I read the first 120 pages yesterday to record the audio. And it's amazing how much more I like this book than my first. too. And I think that's because you wrote a lot of it. And so I think that's a big, I'm like, wow, this is actually really good. There is some good stuff that's going to change people's lives.

So thank you for that for making me enjoy this book so much more. Yeah, I think that's just when you read somebody else's because I feel are the exact opposite of that, like the parts I read that you wrote. I'm like, oh, that sounds good. And then I read mine. I'm like, yeah, I don't know, man. So to start, and this is something that relates to the score that matters, is how people define success. I was reading your blog this morning and it was it's good every Thursday, but it was, I really liked it because you were, I want you to tell the story, but you're essentially I'll tee it up. You're having a, you're sitting there listening to two other people have a conversation about success and how people view success. And there are these resume virtues versus,

I think these eulogy virtues. And it sounds like one. of the guys was talking about the resume virtues, which we write about in our book and the eulogy virtues. Can you take me back to that story, listening to those two guys talk about what success is for them and then what it is for you? Yeah. So the story was, I think it happens all the time. People probably encounter it all the time.

It was just two guys sitting there talking and they were talking about one, one of the, the younger guy was talking about all the things he had done, all the places he had been, how much money he was making. your typical kind of like success story of all the great things that he had done. And the older guy just sat there, listened to him. And he just said, you know what? Like, I think success is really just when your kids want to be with you when they don't have to be. And I was like, man. And maybe it's just because of the point of my life that I'm at right now, the season I'm in, it flashed me right to a couple weekends ago when I'm like we went over to Bloomington to spend time with Gabe for Christmas

and we're just sitting in the upstairs lobby of the hotel just playing Uno. And it was like, man, I don't know that it gets much better than this. I don't know that a nice car, a big salary, a corner office. I don't know if that feels better than this. And so just reinforced what I had thought and what we had talked about throughout the book. And the blog is talking about, I think, the title of the blog, success posers, right? Because I think there's a lot of people that pose for success. They show people what they think they want to see, what they think success is supposed to

look like when I think in reality, it ain't the truth. It reminds me of that story I wrote about when I'm walking in the parking lot waiting for my daughter to finish her dance practice and I'm listening and I'm listening to a podcast. It's the wintertime. I'm listening and this dad approaches me, a guy that I know, but not that well. And he just asked me about family and I'm doing the normal dad awkward thing. I'm probably complaining too much about being an Uber driver for kids and staying in bad hotels for tournaments and all that type of stuff. And he like paused and he's, dude, do you know how much you're going to miss that? My son just went to college last year and I hardly see him at all now because he's far away.

And your daughter's about to get her driver's license. And once that happens, it's a whole different world and then eventually go to college, which I know you're dealing with right now. And he's embrace today now. Like these are the good old days. And I'm like, that's so true. Like sometimes you just need the random guy in a parking lot to remind me, remind you of what success is or remind you to embrace those moments where you're just playing Uno with your kids in a hotel lobby in between watching them play sports or whatever

it may be. It's so interesting how it works that how we define it, how we see it, and then how we can live like in that moment as opposed to. to doing what a lot of us do if we're not careful, that's complain about whatever the thing is of driving or hotels or stuff like that. And when I read your story, it reminded me of that interaction I had with that dad.

Yeah, I think that hits the nail in the head. It's the willingness to allow the things to give you some perspective. I think we all get that perspective at some point. The sooner we can get it, the more present we can be and enjoy what we're going through in the moment. Yeah.

The title for our book, The Score That Matters, One of the quotes that really jumped out to me that I think has impacted why we titled it, what we did is the Warren Buffett quote, which is the big question about how people behave is whether they've got an inner scorecard or an outer scorecard. It helps if you can be satisfied with an inner scorecard. And we shifted that a little bit to scoreboard. But what does it mean to you to live by your inner scoreboard versus the outer one? for me it's just it eliminates comparison that's really at the essence of it for me that's what it is

but that speaks to my purpose of excellence over success i view success as a comparison with other people and i think that's how society kind of defines it so the willingness to live by that inner scorecard just means you're going to detach from that that metric of success and you're going to choose how you want to define it and it can be it can really be anything But the recognition that it's your choice rather than somebody else's choice, it is, I think it's very empowering. And it allows you to take control of your life and determine which direction you're going to go. We don't have to just float downstream and live the way society tells us we have to.

Why do you think this is so hard? I think we're flooded with it. I think it's everywhere in every context, every part of life. that's how it's measured. You have these little pockets of places if you look, but you've got to be really paying attention. And you meet these people that seem really authentic and seem really special. Sometimes they're a waiter at a restaurant. Sometimes they're a UPS delivery guy. Sometimes they're your coach or your teacher. And you're like, man, something's different about that person. And I really think this is what it is. I think it's they found that inner scoreboard and how they're going to

live their life and they're able to stick to that and live authentically. And that's why we're so drawn to those people. I immediately when you said that thought of our mutual friend, Garron Stokes, who you introduced me to it, I'm so grateful that you have because now we get to do work together. And every time I talk with G, I feel better for it because he's a lot like you and the fact that you've both done a lot of work to develop this comfort in your own skin that's attractive to all types of people. Like, how can I be more like that? And I think spending, time around you guys helps me be more like that. What type of work goes into it? How do you get to the point where you're like, okay, I have detached from man's approval. I feel this, I don't know

if it's comfort in your own skin's the right phrase. That's why I use a lot, but maybe that's not even it. But I feel like I know what I'm supposed to do. I know why I'm here. And I'm just going to focus on doing that. And I'm not worried about whatever else is out there, all the noise, all comparison because it's very easy to compare ourselves to others. It's very easy to get caught up and all of that. You have to be so intentional not to. What type of work does it take to, I think, show up in the world like you and Garen and some others do each day? The initial work, and actually Garron and I did a lot of that together early on when we're going on this journey of figuring out who we were and who we want to be and how we want to live and coach and lead people. For me, it's

quiet. I need quiet. I need to be able to reflect, really think about what's important to me and why it's important to me and why do I do things the way that I do them. Recognize my biases, recognize my influences, and then sift through that and figure out what really matters to me, rather than just deferring to what everybody tells me should be important and what should matter. And so once you do that, I don't think that's the hard part. I think the hard part is the courage to actually do it consistently because you get sucked back in so easily. And it's like that the courage to do that over and over, regardless of who it pushes away from you, who it brings to you, what it costs you, the relationships, the achievements, the recognition, all that stuff

has to be outside of your focus. And the detachment is not, is not a, I think it's easier for some people. I don't think detaching was real hard for G. Like, I think Garen does that fairly easily. It's not real hard for me either. And so some people have that draw to want to be liked. And that's just a reality that you've got to work through. But I think the self-reflection and really understanding of being willing to look at your flaws, that causes a lot of people problems is they don't think they have flaws.

And we're all so screwed up. It blows my mind. You know how many times? Like, I've been doing this for 15, 20 years now. with my core values and stuff. And I screw it up like numerous times a day over and over. I got to try to fix it. I got to try to do it again.

But that's all part of the process. And that's the success of the process. And, you know, you get away from trying to attain things. Yeah. So it reminds me so much of the story when I was a brand new Lexus Nexus sales rep. And a guy had just gotten promoted. So, you know, he's feeling good about himself. and he walks up to a few of us.

We're in like this cubicle city here here in Dayton, Ohio. And he's like, hey, come outside, check this out. And we're like, okay, okay, we go outside. It's about a lot of entry-level jobs. Most of us don't have very much money. So you drive whatever you can drive, right? Most people don't have very nice cars. And out parked right out front is this candy apple red, beautiful Corvette.

And I was like, oh, we all look at this. She's like, check out my ride, guys, look at this. I thought I'd treat myself when I got promoted. And we looked at each other, wow, cool car, man, cool car. And I remember said, I'm like, are you a big car buff? Because I'm not really a car guy. Like, you big car guy. You into whatever, the beauty of what goes into the engine and all the stuff of making a

Corvette, not that I know much about that. And he's, oh, man, I just thought it would look sweet, driving it to work. And it was just such a good reminder of that. I think if you're a car guy and you love the beauty of that, maybe you grew up doing stuff with cars with your dad, like that's the thing. I get it. But it was a purely outer scoreboard reasoning for buying that red corvette. So it would stand out in a sea of Toyota Corolla's and used Honda Civics in that parking lot.

And Morgan Housel talks so much about that. What he learned as a car valet years ago is people think that by driving that car, they're going to look impressive and be respected and be liked. In reality, people don't even really care. They don't even, they don't really care about, they may look at the car, Oh, a cool car, but they're not looking at the person driving the car, right? They may envision themselves driving the car. And so it's just like this, it was a perfect reminder of why it's hollow, I think, to live by the outer scoreboard versus the inner scoreboard. And you get promoted,

maybe a better thing to do would be to sit and reflect and wonder, what did I do to earn this? What do I believe? What am I going to share with my team to help us progress and grow and get better? going to help serve the people I'm now in charge of leading at my company as opposed to being like, let me go blow this money I got because I got a raise. Stories like so many of us probably either have been that person ourselves or we've been around others like that. And then you realize that's not it, man. That's really not it. It's more about what's your foundational elements of how you live. And I think that starts with, as you said, the core values. So can you take me back to the time when you were living more outer scoreboard based,

and then you made that shift to being a more inner scoreboard guy. Yeah, it was my first, probably my first seven years of coaching. It was, I got into coaching because I love basketball, and a lot of the people that I had looked up to were coaches growing up. And like when I got into coaching, I just did what everybody else did. I didn't think anything about it. It wasn't intentional about it. I was just going to try to win games.

and that's pretty much what I did for my first seven years. I just tried to win games. And I had some relationships that were good, and I had some relationships that weren't. But there was no intentionality of trying to develop that and pour myself into that aspect of it and let the results take care of themselves. It was more about how do I get the results I want? What do I have to manipulate or change or do in order to get those results? And so we had a season where we were 18 and 2 and then lost in the first round,

to the tournament to a team we had just beaten by 40. And I just remember thinking like, man, like I thought I was good. Of course, like everything for me at that point was a comparison and a journey to prove myself. So it was an ego battle. If I won, I was better than you. If you won, you were better than me and I was miserable and couldn't stand it. And so that kind of sent me into this like deep trying to understand what was going on. Of course, during that same time, I wasn't a good dad either because when I would lose, I had no perspective on anything. And so I didn't, I wasn't able to detach from any of that and be the dad at home that I needed to be. So I remember going to an Athletes in Action Clinic and Dick Bennett, the old coach at Wisconsin,

was talking about his pillars of success. And having known his, I know Coach Bennett at Virginia now, who is his son, he told me how he got those. I was lucky enough to talk to him about it. And so I talked to him and he said, basically his dad opened up the Bible and said, okay, what would make a good basketball player? And he picked five characteristics that he thought would make a good basketball player from the Bible. And so that's how he got his five pillars of success. And I was like, all right, well, I'm not Dick Bennett. I know that. But that seems like a great idea. How can I pour into guys in a different way? And so that was where I really started thinking like, okay, who am I? What can I offer that other guys maybe can't? How can I help move kids lives forward? And so that was really the start of it, about seven years into my coaching career, that it's not rock bottom. I see that. But for me in coaching, I was to a point where I knew I couldn't keep doing it that way. So I either needed to get out of coaching or I needed to start doing it a different way. And so from that perspective, I think it was rock bottom for me in my coaching life.

How does tough, passionate, unified, and thankful come about? So for core values, I think, like when we talk about them, Ryan, we talk about people you admire. And so the people that I admire embody those values. Now, there's a lot of other things that they embody. But in that reflection and in that self-assessment, I got to look at what do I aspire to be and to have that they have because there's people that you admire, they have, they have characteristics and behaviors that are important to you. And so, you know, I pause one sec. I pause one sec. I just want to distinguish between because we're,

in one part of this, we're saying we don't want to compare ourselves to other people. But in this part, we are saying there is a little bit of a comparison or at least an admiration of people and that's how you develop your values. Can you distinguish between this? I admire these people and I'm building my core values based upon what I admire about them as versus this. hey, we shouldn't be comparing ourselves against other people part. Yeah, I think it's aspirational and it's not comparison for me because I know I'm not in the same place that they are. Coach Kay talked about running your own race. And so I can look at my dad and understand my dad is in a different place in his life than I am and to expect myself to

have that same level of toughness that I see modeled in my dad. That's not realistic. that because I'm not my dad. I'm not there. I don't have the life experiences he has where all, everything is completely different. But to want to have that and to live like that and to focus on those behaviors, I think that is where it becomes aspirational to me. And I also think it's a little bit different between things and behaviors, right? Like I can continue to improve and continue to grow my behaviors. I think comparison a lot of times is in things, in accolades, and achievements and salary houses, cars, things versus you looking at a coach or a parent or a teacher and you really admire the way in which they carry themselves as well as what they, it's more of their

character, right? More of their character and what they're about, less about, oh, I, man, I would, that guy drives a Range Rover or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. It's not something we have. It's something we are, right? It's who we're trying to become in the process of that. So that's really the big thing for me. in terms of it not being a comparison. It's more of I want to be on that track too. I want to continue to grow in those areas. What was the process to come up with tough, passion, and unified and thankful?

Because I remember the first time I did my core values, I even hung them up in my house, Hawk family core values. They were hanging in the house. And there was like, there were upwards of 20, right? Which I guess is better than not like thinking about it at all. But when you have 20 values, you essentially have none, right? It's just like if you have 20, priorities at your business, you've got none. You can't have 20 values. There's no,

that's just too much. So to, to whittle them down is a, if you're serious about this, is a tough, process to get there. How did you whittle yours down to tough, passion, unified, and thankful? Yeah, simplicity is one. I value simplicity a lot, just in coaching and life. And so that's something I feel like I'm pretty good at, like recognizing what's too much and what's not. And so I knew I didn't want very many. And in talking to some other people and reading about your purpose and your values, I knew I couldn't be everything. And so I just, I knew I wanted to be three or four. Like that was enough. Like that was right. More than that, I was not going to be able to be intentional about doing. I basically just thought about it. I thought about it. I wrote about it.

I journaled. I talked to people. I talked to my, my, my, my foxhole people that I, that I, that I trust, ask them what they thought who like describe me. What do you think of when you're talking about Brooke Cups? What are you thinking? What does that mean to you? Who do you think I am? And that gave me a better picture of where I was. And then through reflection is where I figured out where I wanted to go. And so the tough is definitely from my dad, passionate, probably from my dad. My high school coach was very passionate in a completely different way. Unified is just that that's more of just how I've always seen myself functioning within a team rather than individually. And then thankful is my mom.

My mom is like one of the nicest, kindest, most caring people in the world. And I've always valued that. That's one I've got to be intentional about because it's not natural for me to be like lovey and caring and be outwardly showing that. So I've got to be intentional about it. But I value it. It's really important to me. I think I want my kids to know that I love them in my,

players to know I love them as much as I love my mom and I love my high school coaches. What's interesting that you say that's not natural, like I've gotten a number of thankful Thursday texts from you and from others that have been influenced by you. And the ripple effect on thankful Thursdays is interesting to me. Can you describe what that is and how you practice that as well as the people in your life that you've influenced to practice that each week? Yeah, I don't really know where it came from, but it's something I started doing in our leadership class and just every Thursday, today's Thursday. So we sent a thankful text to someone older than you, younger than you, and your age. That's how we do it in class. But typically,

if it's a normal Thursday, I'll write three thank you notes. And they're not just limited to Thursday. I'll write them other days and stuff. But handwriting thank you notes has just become something that I think that's one of the best ways. Telling somebody in person is really good. I'm not sure it's as good as a handwritten thank you note because they can read it again and they can read it again, they can read it again. And that knowing that you took the time to, you thought about me, and then you took the time to choose the words that you wanted to say to me and you wrote them down and you put it in the mail, it's just a little bit more impactful than a text. But with our students in class, we send a text, with our guys, we send a text. I just think it's one of those

things where it just represents my values. And so it fits when we start talking about behaviors, One of the behavior I have for thankful is show love. And so how do you show love? And there's a lot of different ways to do it. Thank you Thursdays are one of my ways. You mentioned earlier about Foxhole friends and they help mirror up to telling you who you are. What are the qualities that you most admire that are almost necessary to be one of your foxhole friends? For me, and this is definitely not for everybody, but for me, I like disagreeable givers.

Adam Grant's like breakdown of people and disagreeable giver loves you, cares about you, but will tell you the truth. And a lot of times it comes across gruff and uncaring, but it's the complete opposite that. And so those are the people I'm drawn to. And I don't know, I don't know necessarily why. I feel like because they make me better. And I feel like that's probably who I am. I don't have a problem telling people the truth. And I'm going to tell you, if it sucks, then you've got to deal with it. You got to figure out, like, does it really suck? I'm just telling you what I think. It registers for me. So those are the people that are really important to me and my foxhole. As a coach, though, you have tons of those, not necessarily ones that you want to listen to,

but coaches get, are some of the easiest people in the world to criticize because everyone's sitting in the stands, not necessarily in the arena where you sit or stand coaching. They all are smarter than you. They could do it better than you. They would have called the right time out or the right out of bounds play, whatever. So you're used to getting probably a lot of negative feedback, even though you've won so much. You still have your critics, I'm sure. How do you know, how do you decide who to listen to when it comes to feedback versus who you shouldn't listen to?

The number one filter is Roosevelt's quote. If you're not in the arena, I really could not possibly care less what you think. If you're not in practices and you're not working, if my guy's got something, I will listen. But if you're not in the arena, I just don't have any value in your opinion. And so it doesn't mean I don't like you. I just don't care what you think about it. And so that's the number one thing. And that eliminates a whole lot of it.

And then the other part of it is if you're not in my foxhole, if you're not going to show up at my funeral, like, why do I care what you think about me calling the time out or not? Why does that matter to me? Why do I think if you think that kid's better than this kid? If you're not coming to my funeral, you don't really care. I think that's part of that courage that we talked about at the beginning. Like, that stuff gets you because that's the road to comparison is when you start listening to all those opinions. And so by being able to detach from those and stay focused. And some things, honestly, you just got to eliminate.

So right now, like, I'm not on social media at all. So all those people that are tweeting about how stupid I am or how much Gabe sucks at India. or whatever it is, I have no idea it's happening. So it's a way for me to just eliminate that. And I don't have a fear of missing out. I'm not worried about missing out on anything good. If it's really important, somebody that I care about will tell me. Like somebody that I care about will tell me.

Do you think I was going to just going to ask that? Do you think by eliminating those who are not like directly in your foxhole, you could potentially miss out on something useful? Probably. at times. I will say I hear some of that stuff. You'll hear. I'll have a parent come in and complain about something or talk to me about something. And I'll hear it. But I know I have a hundred percent choice on whether I won't listen to it or not and do anything about it. And so I'm completely willing to just say, okay, thanks. And then go right back on my business. But I'm also reflective

enough to say, if they say something that's good, I might say that I hear you. And then if it's good and it's something that I think needs to, then I'll do something about it. But it's the willingness to be able to detach from it, but also assess and filter through it and see if there's value in what's being said. But I am, I'm definitely funneling that down. I'm not listening to all of it. I can't sift through everything. One of the things that I noticed through our book writing process, I wanted to observe you in action as much as possible. I went to most of the games last year and I've seen you run practices and run meetings, bend your leadership class, tried to be like embedded.

So I felt like we wrote this together, not just like your parts and my parts. And I'm very happy with how it came out. But one of the things that I wanted to bring up was I remember sitting in one of your team meetings prior to a practice. And this is a tough group, I think, to get to open up. I remember being a high school athlete. I don't think I would have opened up to my teammates and my coach. I know I didn't when I was a high school athlete.

And we had good teams with good coaches. But I don't think I would have done it. You asked the question, how can we show each of you love? And each guy then wrote in their journal and they then read it to the group about how others, how their teammates could show each other love. And I think to get to a point where guys are open, honest, really vulnerable, I think this could apply off a basketball team and into the business world. And that's why I want to bring this up to you. What are the ways that you've created an environment where there's so much

trust and safety for people to be vulnerable and tell the truth? Thus, bring your teams so close together. And there is no doubt that closeness and that culture and that feeling of safety amongst your teammates leads to the results that you've gotten on the court. the past however many years. So I'm curious, building trust is tricky amongst a lot of very different people. And this is not a basketball thing. This is a life thing. This is a business thing. This happens everywhere. What are some of the ways that you've been able to build a culture of so much trust? Yeah. Well, first of all, I'd like to think of our basketball team as a microcosm of what life is. Like everyone is on a team. Every single person is on a team. Life is a team sport.

And so you have to be able to function within a team. And so when you think of it like that, you think of, okay, well, if I could do this with our team, then I could carry that to my family. I could carry that to my group of friends. I could carry that to my youth group or whatever it is. Right. And for me, the trust thing, I'm a big Pat Lynchioni fan. I think his model of vulnerability-based trust to me is the best. We've used the five dysfunctions of a team for 15 years with our program.

But I think it boils down to having done it for a while is I think you build trust three ways by laughing, crying, and suffering together. Like those are the three. If we laugh, we are showing vulnerability, especially if we laugh at ourselves, right? If we're willing to laugh at ourselves, that shows a level of humility that is necessary to embrace everybody else on the team. We cry together. We show what hurts us and that, you know, what we're afraid of.

and it lets us open ourselves up that guys don't use it against us. I'm checking to see if I trust you or not. And when I open up and if I cry in front of a group of 17-year-old guys, like, where's that going, right? That's scary. And then suffering together for a basketball program or high school sports team, that's fairly easy. That's practice and all the hard stuff that you go through two days or whatever it is.

But that carries over to any type of profession or job. I think the corporate world, in my opinion, I'm not in it, but in my opinion is afraid to laugh and cry together enough and doesn't necessarily even have to be crying, but be personal. If your mom is sick and has cancer, I want to know that, man. That changes how you, that changes everything about what you bring to the team. And if you're not willing to share that with anybody, man, that's a tough team to be on. That's not talking about my life. I want to be able to share that with somebody.

I want to somebody to be able to help me through that. We say you can't be tough alone. That's one of the things in our program. That's where that vulnerability and willingness to open up and share. Everybody's different on the spectrum of that, especially when they first come in. Fortunately, our guys have been doing this a long time now. So where we are, it's still way ahead of where we were. So I just laugh, cry, suffer is the best way to build trust and building systems into your program,

into your team that allow you to do that consistently. just keeps reinforcing that vulnerability-based trust. It's so funny, man. I've got a chance to work with a lot of companies now over the past six years. It's crazy that I've been doing this full time for that long. And you've been with me for some of those. And the ones who achieve the greatest results, which is ultimately what the financial people and companies want the most.

And sometimes they listen to us. They're like, oh, those guys do all the soft skill stuff. And they make fun of us. But the ones who are the best at what those financial people call soft skills end up getting the results that the financial guys love. It's amazing how it works. And I literally envision the companies I've been at where they don't really have the culture where they're doing a ton of laughing and crying or even the hard. Like it works hard, right? But they don't have that versus the ones who on day one when we do the exercises we do, which some of them get emotional.

And I think some of those are really good. We do them on purpose to see where we're at with the group and to see how comfortable the leaders are and the spaces that they've created to laugh and cry and do hard things together. It is amazing to see that their results are almost always beating their goals, financially doing fantastic versus the ones who are a little scared or it's not a safe place to do that. And I've got to see that firsthand inside of these companies, the difference.

between laughing, crying, hard stuff together versus the ones who don't do it. It's pretty wild. Yeah. Yeah, it's awesome. And the other thing is they achieve the most, they do the best, and they sustain it. They keep it because it's all based on those relationships and that trust, which just goes beyond so many other things. I brought up the goals that people have, and we've talked about this a hundred times, but I'll never stop because I think it's so important. results-based goals versus process-oriented goals because I think this also flows with the score that matters in living by your set of core values and the behaviors to match those core values. And ultimately, I think living this way will make you more effective, will make you more content,

will make you a better husband or wife, will make you a better mom or dad. That's why we wrote this book, because I truly believe it with every ounce of my being, that it will make you better in all of the important things in our life. lives. And I think the goal element flows with that really well, whether it's personally or at a company or with a team. It's so interesting that you and Garen guys who are state champion coaches don't set goals to win state championships. And I think people are like, what? Of course you do. Obviously, you want to win a state title. Of course, who wouldn't if you're playing? And if you're playing a game, yes, yes, you obviously want to win. But that's not the goal stated. So can you

walk me through your whole process when it comes to process-based goals versus results-based goals. Yeah, and I will put a little caveat in. I think goal, like checkmark benchmarks are good along the way for short-term things. But when we're talking about something big that we're trying to achieve, I think we are much better suited to focus on the behaviors that are the most likely to lead there. And so that's really the difference.

I'm not going to set the goal of winning a state championship. I'm going to set goals of the behaviors that will give us. us the best chance to do that. Because I can think I control that as much as I want to, but I don't control that outcome. I don't control it. I ask the kids in my class all the time, do you control whether you get an A in this class or not? And they say, yeah, if I work really hard, then I can get an A. I go, not if I don't like you. I don't have to give you an A. I'll just make a test that's so hard. We've never talked about it. And you'll fail it. And then I can give you a C or a D. you think you do. What you control is what you do, like your behaviors. So if I want to get an an

class, I know what I have to do to be able to get an anna class, right? I know what I have to do and then whatever happens, but you've got to be willing to surrender that aspect of it, that outcome in order to fully go in on that process. So we just think of it strictly as a process base goal. Like what are the things that we need to do, that would give us the best chance of doing that. Setting the goal of winning a state championship and basketball, what else are you doing? Why do we have to go set that? That should literally be the goal for every high school team in the state. Why are we going to say, oh, we want to win a state championship? Well, no crap, like you're playing basketball in Ohio. So what else would you be trying to do? I've never understood why you would

set goals lower than the maximum thing that you can achieve. That makes no sense. I've just seen it over and over where that process doesn't put a cap on you. If you focus on the process, you don't know. you're not setting a limit on what you're capable of. I think with a destination-based goal, I think you run the chance of doing that. One of the things I learned through the process of writing with you was your thoughts on team captains. And again, I think this could apply outside of a sports team as well. How do you view and how do you select team captains?

I get in this conversation with coaches all the time because the tradition is always to name your captains before the season. And your captains are usually juniors or seniors or your leading score. And I get it. But when you start putting people in captain roles hoping that they will embrace them and take them, you're in trouble. You're dealing with some dangerous stuff, in my opinion. First of all, you don't need to name captains.

Just watch for about 20 minutes and you know who the captains are. Whether you have the guts to say that's who they are or not, who they are in about 20 minutes. And so we name ours after the season and award them after. after the season. But throughout the season, we intentionally do not name them because I think it's detrimental to most teams. I won't say it's always the case, but for most teams, we're trying to break down the hierarchy of roles and what your importance is to the team. And by placing captains, I'm immediately putting into hierarchy. I'm saying like, okay, you guys got to listen to these guys will tell you what to do and where you need to be, but they're above you. Well,

how is it their responsibility to uphold the standard? But sophomore Jimmy that comes to practice every day, he can hold the standard too. He can tell you if a guy doesn't touch a line. He can tell you if a guy doesn't do all of his reps. We just look at it as it's everybody's job to hold the standard of the program. And we want that confrontation and conflict and communication from anybody. Our goal is to get that sophomore that doesn't hardly ever play to challenge that senior that's trying to cut corners. We want that.

And if you just say captains, that kid that's a captain, and doesn't think he has to listen to that sophomore. Is there something you do specific? Because I'm thinking in a business for maybe newer people who have a chance to make change for good or make an impact for the freshman or sophomore. Because I remember I started as a freshman and I don't think I said a word other than calling the play and the cadence, right? And then just trying to execute the play. And between my first and second year, my coaches pulled me aside, Coach Roloren, and Coach Greg, it said, you've got to find your voice.

It's part of your role. as part of your job as a quarterback. It did help me. It could push me a little bit. How do you create an environment where it's safe for a freshman or a sophomore to tell a junior or a senior what to do or to call them out when they're being selfish or when they're not doing what they're supposed to do? Because I remember that being hard and needing a nudge. It probably helped, too, that I helped us win some games as a freshman so that the older guys were like, okay, he's helping us out here. What do you do as a coach to help create?

and foster an environment where everybody can uphold the standard, not just the maybe the more experienced or older players. I think you talk about it for one. And we have what we call standard bears within our program, which are the people that represent our core values and the standards that we won. It could be basketball related, like how hard you go to the offensive boards, or it could be program and core value related where it's like, how well do you respond to adversity? We have the whole gamut of it, and we talk to the guys about what it's supposed to.

to look like. And sometimes you're pointing at a sophomore or a freshman that's just embracing challenge and struggle and just keeps coming back over and over. So I think by highlighting and lifting some of those guys up, you empower them to talk to or speak to those values. Now, it's going to still take a special kid with some guts to say something to that senior, right? But we try to create safe opportunities to do that. So we do something called debriefs. We got this from the Blue Angels at the end of all of our practices where we go around and we say something we did well, something we need to do better, how we're going to fix it, and then who they liked them practice that day. And what that does is it creates just a safe opportunity to start giving some critical feedback.

At first, we do it on ourselves. And then usually we're probably getting close to that right now in our season, where we'll start just pairing them up and we'll say, tell them something they did well, something they could do better, something I did well, something I could do better. So we just try to start safe, as safe as we can, giving that feedback and then trying to build that into the courage to call it out within play, within practice. I think it, but to expect guys to go from zero to 100 on that isn't realistic. So I think we try to put bumpers up and we have a rule where if you get feedback from a teammate, you got a fist bump them, look them in the eye, fist bump them, make sure they

know, yeah, I got you, thanks. Even though we tell guys, like, you'll get feedback that's not accurate, too. But these guys are in our arena. These are our guys. And so if he's telling you that you need to throw the extra pass and you know that extra pass wasn't open, then you thank them, say, okay, because you want them to keep giving you feedback. The moment you split that off, now you're not, now you're cutting your chances of getting better because you dried up a river. You put a dam up that's not going to allow you to keep getting information and feedback. That is a great point. It reminds me of stories in corporate America where you have a boss who's give me feedback. I want it. And then let's say you actually do it. And it's critical feedback.

And they immediately get defensive and they start explaining it away and start saying why your feedback is wrong instantly when you said it. What have you just done? You've just let that person know that you can't accept any critical feedback. You only want compliments. And I think as leaders, We need feedback from the people in our foxhole that know us really well. And this is one of the things I try to work with leaders. If you ask for feedback, you have to prepare yourself to receive something negative. And if the first thing you do is get defensive and explaining it away, as you said, that river is going to dry up. You are conditioning them.

You're telling them, I can't take it. I don't want it. As leaders, we have to think about that. And we can coach and help people who are leading others, too, that this is a critical part of both giving and receiving feedback is when you're receiving it of how you do it to make sure you show others like, I want it. Even if you don't fully agree with it, which, of course, you're going to get feedback that you don't agree with. I think that's a huge point that if we're not intentional, we can mess that up. And I think people like we just finished our strengths and weaknesses because we're doing roles. And that's another one.

That's a fairly safe environment. Everybody gives two strengths in one weakness for each player in the room. You talk to some people in the corporate world about that, oh, we can't do that. We can't give them all that negative stuff. I'm like, 17-year-old kids are sitting here and listen to negative stuff that they do. You can't tell them that they screw something up, but they're not good at something. Like, I suck at a lot of things that you can name up. We can go a long time for you naming stuff I'm not good at.

You're exactly right. Like, how will they receive that? So our guys are taking notes on it. I have them repeat, like, okay, what did you hear everybody say that you're not good at? Well, it's a weakness. They say everybody, what everybody said, and then they say, okay, and I had for myself, whatever. I heard you say this, and this is what I had for myself. I think that's just conditioning and helping them become more self-aware and open to growth

and improvement. If we don't hear that, we want to shut that off. It's the straight path to a fixed mindset. Do you have them give you your strengths and weaknesses as well as your staff, your assistant coaches? Yeah, coaches. So players will say something like coach cups and they'll, wow. We have 13 guys in our practice right now. I'll have 13 plus the three coaches. So I'll have 16 people telling me things I'm not good at. Are there some themes of things people have said over the years or even recently that you're not good at? Yeah. Patience is always one that comes up for me.

Like you're not very patient. Are you okay with that though? You want things. Yeah, sometimes. But sometimes they're right too. Sometimes I don't take it into account. I can't expect everybody to do things at the same speed as a four-year varsity guy, like some of the guys we just graduated. That's not realistic. But I personally know, well, yeah, I do know that, but if I'm going to walk a line, I'm going to walk the I'm going to walk the inpatient line pushing that pace of that. But I also hear you that I need to be aware and patient of, aware of what everybody else is and where they are and trying to meet them there better. That's how I take it. Gotcha.

You talked about sharing what someone liked about someone else. And one of the things I've borrowed from you, I think you call it moments of greatness. I've switched it to say moments of excellence when I'm either working with a group or sometimes I've opened keynotes with it where if they have an amazing behind the scenes team, either it's A-V or the person who set it up and I'm like moments of greatness and we're going to give them two claps or we're going to even a full on standing ovation I've done before. And it's really cool to see, I think people like sharing moments of greatness or moments of excellence. And the receivers usually are surprised and feel good about that too.

I absolutely think this should happen at all companies. This is not a sports thing, even though in your case I learned it from a sports team. Can you share more about moments of greatness and how this could also be done off the basketball court? Yeah, it's really just a recognition of things that speak not to, achievement, but to behaviors. That's really the key to it, because it's about our core values. So it's what have someone done on the team that really recognizes and acknowledges and represents our values the way we want them represented? And so the empowering thing, you talked about how do you get that kid that's a sophomore to say something to the senior?

Well, one way is when the senior calls out that kid for a moment of greatness. Now that kid feels like, okay, like it's a little bit safer now, right? Like I, I feel, okay, he trusts me. He respects what I'm doing. So after a game or after a practice, you will ask people to share moments of greatness about others, or how does it work? Yeah, we do it. We always do it the day after the game. And so our first thing we do the day after a game is, all right, moments of greatness, write them down in your notebook, and then we're going to share your moment of greatness. J.P. might say, Andrew was really going hard this week in practice and gave us a good look for our scout team. I thought he made us ready because of how hard he played this week in practice.

Or it could be Carter might say, Eli got me water when I came off the floor. He had water ready for me and reminded me of the things that I need to do when I go back out there. He showed me love. It was thankful because I always say, okay, what four value does that connect to? And so then we relate it to those behaviors that we want reinforced. I just think of your Monday meeting for, we always feel like we had Monday meetings when I was running a team. And what if you started the meeting with moments of greatness from last week? Okay, moments of greatness. Let's share about our teammates, like how people, like think about like how

that would change a culture. Instead of saying, okay, this week, we're going to do this. And then this is the incentive and then this is the initiative brought down by the CEO. As you're saying like, no, instead of that, we're starting where people are going to share about the great things their teammates did, last week according to the values of that team. How different would that be versus the normal meetings that most people go through? That could be implemented right now. Yeah. Yeah. It's so good for reinforcing those roles that don't get recognition to. Yeah, I think behind the scene roles. Yeah, exactly. The people who maybe don't get a lot of the spotlight or don't get all the recognition that maybe they deserve for how hard they go. And it also proves what you value. Right.

That's what yours is because you're always tying it back to your values when you're talking about moments of greatness. It's not like JP scored 35 points. Like I bet that almost never comes up if ever because that's not really a core value about scoring a lot. It's about being tough, passionate, unified or thankful. So I think that also is a big part of the moments of greatness is that you're highlighting what's most important to you. Yeah, for sure. That's exactly why we do it that way. I asked you a question in the middle of writing about your pace.

And again, I think this applies beyond sports about the fact that when I watch you guys play, one, it's just so much fun. It's so enjoyable to watch how hard your guys play. But one of the things that you do the majority of the time, if not all the time, is pick up full court, like man to man a lot. And also basically running, what I mean by running is you are running a fast break, whether, no matter what, you're just always going to run. You're always going to push the pace, mainly because of how hard it is to go against somebody who is always pushing the pace.

Can you share like your overall philosophy on being a pace setter and on always pushing the pace the whole floor all the time and why you have chosen to do that? Because the obvious thing is, why didn't everybody do that? Well, the reason why is because it's really hard. So can you talk more about pushing the pace all the time and why that's what you want to do. Yeah, this was actually a transition for me, basketball-wise, probably five or six years ago. We used to play a lot slower. And it took me a little while of like just reflecting and thinking about what it meant and for me to embrace the toughness aspect of it. Because when we're doing stuff with our basketball program, I'm running every decision that we have through those same

core values. Like, does this make us tougher? Does it make us more passionate? Does it fit unified and thankful. So when we were going to change our style of play and play a lot faster, start pressing all the time, for me, it fits. Like, that's who we are. Like, it's tough. Now, everybody says they want to run. Everybody says they want to do that until you have to do that. And then it's not so, it's not so easy. And so I think one of the things that, one of the things that I cried myself on and I think is something that I'm good at is being consistent. And so I can do something pretty mundane and pretty boring or pretty, I can keep doing it for a long time. And so we don't mix up our defenses very much.

We don't change what we're doing. We're just going to keep coming and we're going to keep pressing you. We're going to keep pushing the ball. And you are going to have to deal with that. And so for 32 minutes of a high school game, it's hard to do. And it's hard for our guys. Like we spend a ton of time getting ourselves in that kind of shape with that mentality that our anchors defensively are no comfort, no vision. Like we want you to never be comfortable.

And we want the same thing offensively. We say simple and together, but we think of pressing you offensively too. We don't want you to be comfortable. We want you to be on your heels, constantly attacking. And so for me, lifewise, it fits me. Like that's what I try to do. I want to try to steal inches. The core values of our program are my core values. So I want to be tough, passion, unified, and thankful. That's what I'm always aspiring to be. I think that's how I fulfill my purpose. And so I want to have positive body language attacking the moment, always fight ready. I want to steal inches and choose extra work anytime I can. I'm pretty good at those things. Unified is speak and act with urgency for me. And urgency is a big part of that. Let's get to it. I hate wasting time. I hate wasting opportunities.

in moments. We got so long at this dog, let's get it. Let's do what we can do. And so in terms of my life and in terms of the team, that's what I talk about our guys with. The pace of our practice should represent this team has a limited life. It doesn't last forever. So to come in here and jog through and walk through a drill and act like you don't care, we ain't got time for that. That needs to go. Like we're trying to maximize the opportunity that we have together. I know we've got to run, man. The score that matters, the book's about to get out there. finally. It feels like we've been working on it for a while. Parts have been a huge grind. I love the grind. Early on, I remember thinking like, I don't think we're there yet. I think we have a ways to

go. And then we keep chipping away. We keep chipping away. And then that gets better and that gets better. And then that editor helps a little bit and that one helps a little bit more. And it's we restructure some of the chapters and the exercises to really create a heavy practical application for the reader. Thinking about all of that and all that's gone into it. What are you most excited about now others are going to get a chance to read it and implement it into their lives. What excites you the most? I think it's just hearing how it helps people. That's really why you write it and why we're putting it out there is I tell people all

the time, I'm in the best profession in the world, teaching and coaching. I get opportunities to do that and hear those stories and have an impact on kids. And it takes one kid to come back and tell you how much your program meant to you or your class meant to. and it can fuel you for another year, right? Like it just juices you up. Okay, it's working. It's making a difference.

And so I think of hopefully the book having moments like that where people read it and they're like, oh, man, and it shifts the way that they think about being a dad or being a friend or being a coach or, you know, their work. So having those impacts and hopefully it has a lot of them. I know there's a lot of great stuff, Ryan, that's in there that I hope can have an impact. And as a book, it can have a lasting impact. It's going to be there for a while. So hopefully people will have an opportunity.

I'm with you, man. I truly believe more so than anything I've published before, because there's so much practical application here, right? If you actually just read it, you can do it. There's so many things you could do. If you follow through and actually do the things that we talk about, and there's exercises at the end of each chapter to help people easily implement this. It's not easy.

I shouldn't say that. But it's right there. can do it. It's hard. If you do it, I truly believe it's life-changing stuff. If you do it, now that's a big if, and it's definitely not easy, but if you're willing to go through it, and I've been a student, I think you're more of the teacher and I'm more of the student. And so in a way, it's a good perspective for a reader because you get a little bit of both of what it's like to be the student and what it's like to hear from the teacher. And then you could go and do it without anything else. You don't have to call us or email. You can, but you

don't have to and you can just go and do it yourself. So to me, that's what I'm most excited about because I think it could change people's lives for the better and it will make them more effective in all of the most important parts, starting at home, starting as a husband or wife or mom or dad. And then I think that permeates until the rest of their life at work and with relationships and friends as well. So that's what I'm pumped about, man. Again, I want to say thank you so much, man. What a cool project. I already do miss some of the grind of going back and forth saying, dude, what do you got? It's Sunday night. Where are we at? Like, I'm going to miss some. some of that now. Maybe we'll have to do something else beyond just this book because I think

the grind and the hard stuff is actually what makes it good. Yeah, no question, no question. All right, man. Thanks so much, dude. All right. Thank you. We'll see it. It is the end of the podcast club. If you're a member of the end of the podcast club, send me a note, Ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Brooke Cups. A few takeaways from my notes. The big question about how people behave is whether they've got an inner scorecard or an outer scorecard. It helps if you can be satisfied with an inner score card. That's from Warren Buffett. The inner score card is about eliminating comparison with others and living in alignment with what's

most important to you, your values and the behaviors to match those values. That's what alignment's all about. How to build trust. Three things Brooks said. We laugh together. We cry together, we suffer together, we do hard things together. I don't think this only applies to a sports team. I've seen it. I've been a part of it when it happens in a business and corporate America all over the world. It's amazing to see how tight and how impactful and the results that are created from teams that are willing to laugh together, cry together, and suffer together. Everybody can do this. It's not easy, but it absolutely is possible. And then think about the resume virtues versus eulogy virtues.

If we're not intentional, we'll get caught up in living for our resume. That's promotions, money, objects. And there's nothing wrong with getting promoted or making money or any of those objects, but it's understanding what's most important to you and why you want that promotion or why it's important to make the money or to attain any object. We really like to think about the eulogy virtues. and that's the impact you have on people. That's fulfilling and understanding your purpose.

That's living in alignment with your true values. And it's worth it to do the necessary work to understand what those are. But it is work. It takes effort. It takes reflective time to understand what's most important to you, what you value, and then the behaviors to match that. And we believe that our book, The Score That Matters, will help you do that. You can pre-order it now wherever you buy books.

Go to Amazon. Go to learningleader.com. You can pre-order the book and look at all of our bonuses on learningleader.com. But I would love it and think you would benefit greatly if you would pre-order our book, the score that matters. Once again, thank you so much for continuing to spread the word and telling a friend or two. Hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Brooke Cups. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader. because you continue to do that and you continue to support the work that I do by writing and a review

or buying a book at learning leader.com that I think will change your life if you're let it. And because you've done that and continue to do that, you give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.