The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 564: Ariel Helwani - The Howard Cosell of MMA, Conducting World-Class Interviews, Feuds With Dana White, Leaving ESPN, & Dealing With Social Anxiety

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show, presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text Hawk to 6-6-866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email for me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right. You'll also receive details about how my new book, The School, that matters will help you become a more effective leader. You'll also get the first two

Starting point is 00:00:36 chapters for free of the score that matters if you text Hawk to 6-6-866. Now on to the night's feature leader. This was awesome. Ariel Hawani is best known for his coverage of mixed martial arts MMA. He has worked for Fox, ESPN, HBO Box, and Spotify among others. He's won MMA Journalists of the Year at the World MMA Awards every year since 2010. That's more than a decade. In addition to his work covering mixed martial arts, Ariel has worked as a sideline reporter at NBA Games for ESPN.

Starting point is 00:01:11 During this wide-ranging conversation, we discuss why 80% of success is showing up. And we talk about the importance of asking for what you want and not being afraid of rejection. We discuss what it takes to be a world-class. interviewer, which I think he is, and then Ariel gets very vulnerable and shares about his mental health struggles and how seeing a therapist change his life. Ladies and gentlemen, you're going to love this one.

Starting point is 00:01:43 It's the great Ariel Helwani. Ariel, it's great to have you here on The Learning Leader Show. Welcome, my man. It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me. I've been going deep on your story because I've been a big fan of your work, despite the fact that I'm not a big MMA fan. So I just love the way that you approach your career.

Starting point is 00:02:05 And I think there's a lot to learn from a leadership perspective of your whole story and how you've built your career. So I want to start actually with your mom and your dad. And I was reading about them earlier today, the fact that you said that you got your interview skills from your mom and your dad. Because he would never make an excuse and he would never miss a day. Can you tell me what it was like being brought up by your mom and your dad? I appreciate you starting with that because there's no topic I like talking about more than my mom and dad. And I also think it's very interesting that you are aware of me or a fan of mine, but yet not a combat sports fan, which I appreciate it as well.

Starting point is 00:02:39 So thank you. That's very kind. Yeah, so I grew up in Montreal. My mom is originally from Lebanon, Beirut, specifically. My dad's from Alexandria, Egypt. And both of them made their way to Canada in the late 60s, mid-70s. My dad in the late 60s, my mom in the late 70s, both due to the fact that they were living in a part of the world that wasn't too keen on having Jews live in their country. And so as Jews, they had to flee. Some of my family went to Italy,

Starting point is 00:03:07 some went to New York, some went to Israel. They, for separate reasons, they met in Canada, went to Canada. And you hear about this immigrant mentality and all this stuff that people talk about these days. And I lived through that. English wasn't their first language. They were very loving and very supportive parents. They still are till this day. My mom still watches my show every week. and it's a long show about a topic she doesn't know a hell of a lot about, but she does it because she loves and supports me. And it was just amazing to be in a household where my dad started working at a textile factory. He had a background in accounting in Egypt, but tough to get a job when you're an immigrant in a foreign land. And so he's working the overnight shift at this

Starting point is 00:03:50 textile factory in Montreal, literally from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m., cleaning up, sweeping up, eventually fast forward several years later, he buys the factory, he owns the business, he expands the business, and he's had an extremely successful career. My dad is a workaholic, and he'd be the first to tell you that. He's the kind of guy who every day I'd see him, Monday through Friday, wake up, go to work at around seven, come home at around seven. He would have this massive box of papers. He would sit at the dinner table and he would work on all the papers. He would take his shower at 9.30, go to bed and start over again, and he couldn't have been happier. When we were on vacation, all he talked about was work.

Starting point is 00:04:28 All he wanted to talk about was work. And so that was instilled in me. Work hard. Wake up. No excuses. Get out there. Pound the pavement. And when the work is done, there's more work to be done.

Starting point is 00:04:38 He didn't sit at home and watch sports, watch TV. He was just all about the business and the work. And my mom is an extremely empathetic person. My mom is the type of mom that other friends of mine and my brothers, they would come over to talk to my mom to get her advice on things. Like she was that kind of mom. She's the mom that a lot of my brother's. girlfriends and stuff would stay in touch with even after they broke up because she just had that

Starting point is 00:05:01 connection with people. She asks questions. She listens. She has a good mind and eye for things. And so that's why I say I feel like I got my interview skills because I think that the best kind of interviews are the ones where there's empathy, where someone's listening, where they're asking proper follow-ups. And then, of course, I got my work ethic from my dad. And thank God, both are still here, alive and well and as supportive and proud of me as ever. And I don't think that I get to where I am, wherever that is in my life and career, if not for their support. Amazing. I read that when you were ninth grade, you learned about Syracuse from the Sports Illustrated article and the fact that if you went there, that you could potentially grow up to

Starting point is 00:05:41 be like Howard Stern or Bob Costas or the Howard Cocell of the MMA, which we'll get to in a little bit. So can you talk to me about that time in ninth grade when you thought, oh, I want to go to this school because this is where the best broadcasters go. I mean, it's a lot of foresight. It's like you're calling your own shot. It's pretty amazing, but I'd love for you to take us back to that time of what you were thinking. Yeah, because when I was growing up, I grew up in Montreal, like I said, and I was obsessed with American sports. I wasn't like your typical Canadian sports fan. I wasn't a huge hockey fan, which obviously ruled the day over there. And so when my family would go on road trip, say, to New York or Boston, I would sit there and watch ESPN Sports Center on loop in the

Starting point is 00:06:20 morning. It was the same show over and over again, but I just loved that they were covering the NBA and the NFL. Leagues that may be covered now in Canada, but back in the early and mid-90s were not talked about at all. This is before the Raptors and the Grizzlies came to Canada and whatnot. So I was also someone who was just kind of enamored with the magic of TV and media. Like, I remember watching the NBA and NBC. That was my favorite sort of show, if you will, because that's where Michael Jordan and Patrick Ewing and the music. Yeah. Oh, the music was tremendous. And Bob Costas and Marv Albert were there. And I just, I love the way they would start the broadcast, the way they would set the scene. I love the way they spoke. I love the way they presented, all that stuff. And I would

Starting point is 00:07:04 emulate those guys when I would play sports with my friends. But the idea of becoming a broadcaster, I didn't really think that was a thing because it wasn't really part of the culture. And to be honest, part of the culture that I grew up in, a very tight-knit Jewish community in Montreal, the culture wasn't you leave to go away for university. Everyone that I grew up with, including my siblings, all went to either McGill University, which is a top school in Canada. It's in Montreal or Concordia University, which is also in Montreal. No one leaves. And so I'm sitting there and I was always a bit of a dreamer and I had these lofty plans and aspirations. And I see Syracuse University, Bob Costas, Marv Albert, sports broadcasting. This is incredible.

Starting point is 00:07:44 This is the dream right here. And so I just remember, it was like this eureka moment that hit me when I'm reading this issue of Sports Illustrated where they're breaking down the best schools in America for a whole bunch of things, X, Y, and Z. I said, wow, I'm going to go to Syracuse. Now, I'm still four or five years away from that being a reality, but I do finally get to Syracuse, thankfully, and that's really kind of where my journey begins. And I read about the fact that you were scared to go to the dining hall,

Starting point is 00:08:11 that you just eat almonds and food to heat up in your dorm. You wouldn't even leave because of this kind of anxiety or just, what was going on with you in college? Honestly, it was an awful time. Like, I got there. and perhaps a sign of things to come, all that glitters is not gold. You get to the destination, you get to the dream spot, if you will, and I was miserable. Hopefully it ends up being the toughest three years of my life because I was extremely homesick. Like I said, I'm very

Starting point is 00:08:38 close to my parents. And in particular, my mom, I'm very much a mama's boy, and it just broke her heart that I was leaving. I was 19, which again is common here in America. Everyone leaves and everyone looks forward to leaving and the parents are ready for it. My parents weren't necessarily ready for the third boy, the baby boy, to leave when the other two boys were still living at home and going to university and just being around the house. And so I'm the one who, like, I didn't like go into a sleepaway camp because I didn't want to be away from my parents. And now of a sudden I'm going to go live in a foreign country. And I know Canada and the U.S. is pretty much the same thing. But there's some differences and live in a dorm and all this stuff. And so I was just

Starting point is 00:09:15 hit with extreme social anxiety. And yeah, like I would wait until three, four a.m. Just until on a Friday night, I remember this vividly, like I would have my ear to the door. Friday night, dorm, kids are having a great time as they should, and I'm waiting until I don't hear a soul in the hallway so I can run to the bathroom, the communal bathroom, to brush my teeth and then run back into my room. Wouldn't want to go to the dining hall to eat. So I just stocked up on blue diamond almonds, which I have a hard time eating until this day, because it reminds me of those days, Chef Boyer D, Alphaghetti.

Starting point is 00:09:50 like that's what I was eating. I was watching sports in my room by myself. I had a single room and I was just crippled with this anxiety and every time I would leave home to come back to school like Thanksgiving break was over and whatnot Christmas break. I was sad. I was down. I felt like there was a cloud hanging over me. I never really allowed myself to have a great time and let loose in college. And part of the reason for that was I had this goal, this dream of getting to Newhouse, which was the school of public broadcasting, which is where all these great broadcasters went. When I first applied to Syracuse, I didn't actually get into Newhouse. I got a letter that said, oh, congratulations.

Starting point is 00:10:24 We're accepting you into the School of Visual and Performing Arts. Speech Communications was the major. And that's where they essentially put all the rejects who weren't good enough to get to Newhouse. So I had to get a certain GPA, 3.5 at least, to then apply after my first year to get into Newhouse. So I was so focused on not screwing this up. And I put so much pressure on myself that I said, I need to get this 3.5. I can't have fun. I can't have friends.

Starting point is 00:10:48 I need to be able to get to Newhouse in order to fulfill this dream. And without having friends and without having fun in that first year, I only got a 3.51. So I barely made it. And I justified it to myself as, oh, if I had a girlfriend, if I had friends, if I was out on Friday night, I never would have gotten this 3.5. Who the hell knows? Maybe I would have been happier and gotten even better grades. But yeah, I was just a bit of a little. Wow. You feel that.

Starting point is 00:11:09 But that's still like this myopic focus seems like it's, even though it wasn't a, I can't imagine it was a happy time. but it served you well longer term. Do you think that's from your parents, your upbringing? Where do you think that comes from? And do you still have that? 1,000%. I think it's the same mindset that got me to this point in my journalism career and everything. And yeah, to a degree, it's like, it's kind of like for my dad, don't let your hair down,

Starting point is 00:11:37 don't have fun. Don't kick your feet up. Don't rest on your lores. There's a job to do. There's a mission. Go out there. Is he still like that? Yeah, he's very much like that.

Starting point is 00:11:45 Is he still working in his business doing the same thing? So unfortunately, the business had to close during COVID, which was devastating. My father, I believe, and he would say the same, would be happy going to 100 at his desk. And in fact, he still has his office, even though the business isn't there and just goes every day because that's where he wants to be. And I wish nothing more than for him to get that back. But the business was so hard, especially in Canada, there were so many restrictions during COVID that it was just, it was really hard. He was the last one left in Canada, dying and knitting his own fabric. Everything else had been moved to China.

Starting point is 00:12:21 So he had really done everything to be able to put himself in a position to be the sole survivor. But unfortunately, COVID screwed all that up. Wow. Was he able to be so maniacally focused on his business and work and be a present father? A thousand percent. Now, my dad isn't, he isn't one who is coming to my basketball games and whatnot. But, I mean, again, you say to your parents, in ninth grade I'm going to Syracuse they're like okay cool go get them they never

Starting point is 00:12:50 determined me in fact I tried to quit Syracuse a couple times and they're like nope you're not doing that you're staying right there as much as they probably wanted me to come home just to have the baby boy back they never even let me consider it they never even said oh let's look at the options absolutely not and then later in life as I'm going through ups and downs in my career and whatnot they never let me pack it in they never even let me like even consider away that option so my dad just an absolutely remarkable man. The things that I truly admired from him and I think hopefully learn from him, loyalty, his friends always tell me like, we need your dad. He is the first guy there. We need to help very philanthropic, very spiritual, not a man who is expressive and has many words

Starting point is 00:13:33 and is giving speeches. But there's two moments that I'll always take with me about my father, if I could share very briefly. The first is 1994. I'm in the in the sixth grade. I'm a huge New York Knicks basketball fan and they're in the finals and it's game six of the NBA finals the first time that in my lifetime they're in the finals and they could win the series they could win the championship if they win game six or up three two against the Houston Rockets my dad who has never watched sports doesn't care about sports probably doesn't know anyone other than Michael Jordan or Patrick Ewing who is my favorite athlete as a kid sat there and watched the whole game with me and I remember at the end and they lost and then they ended up losing game seven but I remember

Starting point is 00:14:10 thinking about like how much it meant to me that he did that because I think he realized how much the game meant to me and that really meant a lot and it's a moment that I'll never ever forget. And then my dad is very like I said spiritual and philanthropic and he donated a lot of money to our synagogue to build a room where people can learn and pray. And he prays every morning. He puts on something called Philan, which is what the Jewish people put on. They put on this thing. They wrap their arm with it and put it on their head. And he talked about that he's done it. his whole life as an adult, and he instilled that in me. I pray every morning as well, and he instilled it in my brothers too. And he said that the reason why he did this is,

Starting point is 00:14:47 because you wrap your hands, you have to wrap your hand seven times with this like leather band. And he said that the reason why he likes doing this in the morning is because then when he was done and he would drive to work and he would see the marks on his hand from that morning's prayer. And that would be his shield, his armor, to go out there and attack the day. And I do that. And I have been in places like Abu Dhabi and Australia and Brazil and Japan. And Japan covering these crazy cage fighting events. And in the morning in my hotel room, I'm doing that. And I feel like no matter what happens with the crazy characters that I come across throughout the trip and the day and the fights and whatnot, I have this armor on me that is instilled for my

Starting point is 00:15:25 father. Yeah, a long way to say, very supportive and very influential in my life. Wow. You're a dad now. Yes. So how do you show up in a dad when, as a dad, when you are, at least to me it appears to be a workaholic, you seem like you're every. Like I said, I don't even really follow MMA that much, but I feel like I see you everywhere all the time, working for multiple companies now because you're kind of independent. Popping up all over the place. You're in fudes with multiple people. There's just a lot going on in your life as well as your dad. So how do you manage this time working on the road being everywhere as well as being a present dad?

Starting point is 00:16:01 I think I do a pretty good job of it. Obviously, there's things that you could do better, but very important for me. I try to go to every single one of my kids' sports games. So my two boys love soccer. My daughter's getting into it as well. So one of the things that, you know, early on before I became a dad was I want to be omnipresent. I believe in this quote from Woody Allen, 80% of success is just showing up.

Starting point is 00:16:22 I want to be at every single event. I want to be the guy that people, when they think of big fights, they think of me. Howard CoSell, of MMA, all that stuff and more. And then when you become a dad, obviously, to me, the greatest thing in the world, your priorities change and I think it was great for me. I don't actually think that I'm as successful as I am today if I don't become a dad because I'm so obsessive because I'm so at times like I have this OCD and I overanalyze and I just get locked in that if I didn't have the balance, the perspective, the distraction in a good way that kids bring you, I would probably drove myself

Starting point is 00:17:01 crazy just thinking about work 24-7. So they have been a gift to me and I think that they have only made me better at my job. But I also made a vow to myself because I would hear these interviews and I would hear people talk about regrets and whatnot. I really don't want to have any regrets. And I'm going to have regrets. That's just a part of life. But I made a vow to the best of my capabilities. I would never miss a birthday no matter what. And so even like this year, so my son, my oldest is 11, my middle is 9, that's 20, and then my daughter is 7. So it's been 27 birthdays. I haven't missed one yet. And this year there was a gigantic fight on my daughter's birthday in Saudi Arabia,

Starting point is 00:17:39 a huge fight, Francis Ngano against Tyson Fury. And I had to say no. It was on October 28th, and that's my daughter's birthday. And obviously, there's moments where you're like, am I making the right call, but no regrets whatsoever. So I want to be there for them. I want to be engaged. I don't want to miss anything, and I do everything in my capabilities.

Starting point is 00:17:56 And I've been off, like, just a couple of weeks ago, Logan Paul, who you may have heard of, reached out to me to be on his podcast. This podcast is pretty popular. Millions of views. But my wife had a work thing on a Saturday, and my daughter had a soccer game, and I was like, I'm not, I can't miss it. I'm sorry. And I don't know if a lot of people would do that, but I just, I would not put something else ahead of them. So I feel like I do a pretty good job.

Starting point is 00:18:20 You could always do better, but I really want to be present in their lives. I read a story. I found this funny. I don't know if you find it funny, but about your wife, who obviously knows you better than anybody, says that she can't tell you if you're going to go out on a dinner date with another couple until an hour beforehand. Because if he tells you a few days, you'll like overanalyze and you'll think about it and you'll go crazy. So she has to wait to the last second and then you'll just go. What is that all about? That's part of the social anxiety and the over-analizing, just the quirkiness

Starting point is 00:18:53 of my personality. But it's true. We just had this conversation yesterday because Friday night dinner is a thing that Jews do, Shabbat dinner. And I asked, is anyone coming to tomorrow and she's, oh, I don't know yet. And I looked at her and I'm like, I know you probably have plans and I don't care. Last weekend on Friday, or before the weekend started, I was in this room right here and I was breaking some big news about another big fight. And then I come downstairs and now it's 6 p.m. And there's a whole family just in our kitchen, like drinking wine and be like, oh, hey, I'm like, oh, wow, okay. And this is probably better because then I don't have to worry. I don't have to overanalyze. I don't have to ask a thousand questions. And I guess this

Starting point is 00:19:30 just comes with marriage. People just, you know what the other person can handle and can handle. But it is a weird thing and I get it. I understand why people will be like, wait a second, you speak in a microphone very often, 10, 12, 14 hours a week. I'm live in front of a camera. I'm interviewing fighters. I'm at events in front of thousands of people.

Starting point is 00:19:50 How could you be so reserved? And honestly, it's just I feel like a different human. I feel a lot more comfortable in this setting as opposed to if I was in my kitchen. and with two couples and I've had I had to make conversation with them. I don't know what it is, but I just prefer this much more. You know what's weird. I'm very lucky part of what I get to do for a living is go speak on stages probably about 30 times a year. And I've talked a lot of other people who do that even more than me. They've been done it longer than me. And they make their living doing that. It's shocking the number of people who do that for a living who have that exact same

Starting point is 00:20:25 feeling that you do. That they're amazing when they get on stage. And you're like, wow, look at or look at him, like they go nuts. But in a social setting or like that, where you're like, oh, we're going to go out with a few couples and maybe I don't know them that well or whatever. They're either awful. They hate it. They say no. They try to do whatever they can to get out of it.

Starting point is 00:20:43 They hate small talk, all that. It is wild, though, how that seems like a human thing, like a real thing. The people who are not as jovial and talkative in that setting absolutely crush it, whether they're holding a mic on ESPN or another network or on a stage. but the ones who are out there talking all the time, they don't seem to be good at that. I just find that to be a weird dichotomy. It's fascinating. And I first kind of came across it via Howard Stern, big fan of Howard Stern. I think Howard Stern is the greatest interviewer of my lifetime. And he's notoriously very reserved and doesn't like to hang out with people. And then he hosts a radio show like four and a half hours every day for the last few decades. So I think, I don't know, maybe some of that has been instilled in me. But also, I could sit here or do my show and talk for three hours about fights and drama and all this stuff. But then over there, you have to talk about yourself and you have to. So it's a lot different. That's what I'm making you do here, though. Yeah, to a degree, but there's still some kind

Starting point is 00:21:42 of performance here as opposed to, and don't get me wrong, if any of our friends see this, like, I love them. It's more on me having to overanalyze and overthink and just, I don't know, just be a little bit weird in that regard. But I'm working on it. And the funny thing is that My wife is the complete opposite. She wants to go out and talk and do all this stuff. And I'm just someone who just kind of likes to stay to himself, even dating back to when I was a kid. Speaking of interviewing, I know it is a goal of yours, at least I've read, it's a goal of yours, to be one of the greatest interviewers in the world, Howard Cosell of MMA.

Starting point is 00:22:14 You already mentioned Howard Stern, who's one of the greats of all time. I had Dan Patrick on recently, and we spent like the whole hour just talking about this. And it was interesting. We actually disagreed on a few different things because our styles are different. And he has people for 12 minutes. I have people for an hour. He has all as professional athletes who are scared. I have leaders who are pretty open for the most part.

Starting point is 00:22:34 But I am curious, when you think about the skill and the act of interviewing, what makes somebody a great interviewer? There's several things that come to mind. And this is my favorite thing. This is my favorite topic because there's nothing I love more than just interviewing. And by the way, you're a great interviewer as well. Kudos to you. And part of what makes you a great interview is or interviewer is.

Starting point is 00:22:56 you obviously know your subject, right? You've done your research. So you go in there. I used to hear some people say, oh, I prefer not to know anything about my guest beforehand. I'm like, that just means you're lazy. That just means you don't want to put in the time or put in the work because you sure, you can ask questions and there's things, but, you know, it's good to know at least a little bit about the person you're about to speak to. Now, here's the next thing. Good to know, but then when it comes to the actual interview, you almost have to wipe your brain and be as open-minded as possible. I believe strongly that you should not have any questions written down. Everyone has their own formula and that's great, but this is just mine.

Starting point is 00:23:36 Why? Because I don't want to stick to a script. If you and I, we're going to get coffee right now. I'm not showing up with a sheet of questions and going, all right, number three is, how was your weekend? We're just talking. And you're saying something, and then I'm asking you a follow-up, and we're just going back and forth like a ping-pong match and it's a conversation. Ultimately, the best interviews feel like conversations as opposed to interrogations. And so that's the next thing. You got to listen. If you don't listen, what would

Starting point is 00:24:02 drive me nuts and still does listening to interviews is when you know that someone has a set list of questions. And it's in large part why whenever someone asks me for questions in advance, I always say no. It's because I don't want to stick to the script and you don't want me to stick to a script. Because if you give me an answer and we're talking about your childhood and you talk about all this stuff and you're talking for two minutes and at the end and then you say, and then I decided to jump off a bridge. I'm like, if you're already ready to ask a question about college, you sometimes don't even hear the last word. And then you say, wait a second, jump off a bridge. Why did you decide to do that? So you have to always listen and you have to ask proper follow-ups.

Starting point is 00:24:40 That is the next big thing. Back forth. Sure, you may have a roadmap, a beginning, middle, and end where you want to start. where you want to kind of go and where you want to finish off. But you have to be open-minded. You have to listen. You have to ask proper follow-ups. And the last thing that I think would be most important is, as I said earlier, you have to be empathetic. You have to be ready to open your mind, open your heart and not feel again like you're just coming out guns blazing and hitting someone with haymakers. Listen to them. Be soft, be gentle. Be welcoming. But again, Howard Stern,

Starting point is 00:25:13 and no one did it better. He breaks you down to the point where you think that you're just two guys sitting around or a girl and a guy sitting around and there's not even cameras or microphones and they forget that they're on a show. If you're empathetic, if you're warm, if you're welcoming, that's the best result. Have you done improv? Nope. Feels like it. I've done it a little bit of just as a learning mechanism. One of the exercises you actually do in the workshops I've been to is you sit face to face with somebody like this. And each of you, like you switch, you take turns doing this, but you're tasked with saying a pretty long sentence. And then the other person has to repeat the entire sentence back to you. The reason why is because they want you to listen

Starting point is 00:25:58 from all the way to the beginning to the very last word and get used to doing that. Because as you just said, man, most people start thinking of what they want to say and they're just waiting to talk or waiting to ask the next question as opposed to listening all the way and then thinking, ooh, wonder what the best fault. Because I like you, I believe the best questions are almost always follow-ups. Always. So you can't predict that. I have no idea.

Starting point is 00:26:24 I want this to feel. I've told people listening. I want to feel like this is exactly how it would sound if you and I were going out for lunch. Exactly. You're just eavesdropping, sitting right next to us. These are questions I would ask. This is the flow. It would go, I'm probably going to ask the majority of the questions given the dynamic.

Starting point is 00:26:39 But this is pretty much how it would go if we were just going out and having lunch together. That's the best. Those are the best conversations. And now we're blessed because of YouTube and podcasts where we're starting to get some really good interviews and interviewers are popping up. Sometimes it drives me nuts. Like I'll watch sports and you have a five minute sit down, which was probably a 30 minute sit down with LeBron James.

Starting point is 00:27:02 And you see the interviewer sitting there with a sheet or like an iPad. I was like, what? You don't know what to ask LeBron in this sit-down interview? You can't just flow. You shouldn't be in that chair. Or like the walk-off interview, which are like pretty useless. And it's like a two to three-question thing with the coach walking off. And you've got a sheet there. Come on. What is going on here? I know it's nerve-wracking and I know that everyone's different, but you have to be able to listen. You have to ask one question. And yeah, maybe that's terrifying to not know what question two is when you're live. But I'm certain that the coach or the player is going to say something that you could then. and ask why, how come. And then what did you do? Something like that to make it better. That's what I feel strongly about. What's your prep process like? Let's say there's different types of interviews.

Starting point is 00:27:47 Let's say there's shorter ones that are going to happen with a fighter maybe. And then you've done longer, longer form stuff like podcasts and TV stuff. What's your prep process like for those? So when it's on, like when it's about MMA and it's on my show that I do Mondays and Wednesdays, the MMA hour, there's not a lot of prep because I pride myself in being ready all the time. Always prep. You're always ready. Yeah, exactly. I'm consuming, I'm listening, I'm watching, I'm reading, probably too much. If Fighter X walked into this room right now, week ago, I know exactly what you're doing next.

Starting point is 00:28:22 I know what your plans are, what you've done, what you did in your last fight. I have to be ready because that's my bread and butter. On my YouTube channel, when I left the SPN, one of my goals was I want to show people that I'm not just an MMA guy, that I'm not just a combat sports guy, that I can interview anyone from any walk of life in or out of sports. And so I did a series of interviews, and then that transitioned into my basketball podcast was Showtime, where I was talking to a lot of different people who were in sports, weren't in sports, about like an F1 driver. I don't know anything about F1, really. I'm not a big fan, but that stuff, like the joy that I got from those conversations

Starting point is 00:29:00 was great. And so for those, the prep is obviously a lot different. And what I would do for that is very much like what I think you did for me was read old articles or listen to old interviews or watch old interviews. And then you start to formulate your own kind of roadmap in your brain. And again, open-minded, listen, ask questions, but you have to be versed in who this person is. When I was working for HBO doing real sports, unfortunately the show just ended, that was great because the four stories that I did for them were about topics I knew nothing about. And so I really, and those are like two hour interviews each. Now, it gets cut down into a 13 minute segment, but you really have to dig deep.

Starting point is 00:29:40 Like, I was exhausted after those interviews because, like, you really have to be locked in and listen to every single thing that these people, who you don't know naturally, like, I don't have a compartment in my brain that's devoted to an Olympic break dancer. Like if Connor McGregor walked into my room right now, I can open up a vault right here of Connor knowledge and just flow with him. With those other interviews, and it was a great challenge, I had to be. to be prepared. I just got an opportunity to cover the upcoming Olympics in Paris and I had to do nine sit-down interviews in December in Montreal with members of Team Canada, different people from

Starting point is 00:30:14 racewalkers to powerlifters to women's basketball players to sprinters. I know nothing about these people, but I was really excited about the challenge of doing an interview with a race walker. I don't know the jargon. I don't know the history. I don't know, but I did the prep. And so hopefully when he sat down with me, he was like, all right, this guy knows what he's talking about. And he's not insulting me and he's not wasting my time. So I love that sort of thing. But again, for those, for the YouTube stuff, for anything, no questions, all off the dome, be ready. Gotcha. I read the story about, were you outside a bar? Was it a champs bar? I think you're back home. And all of a sudden, like people are going bananas after somebody wins, like they won the Stanley Cup or something. You're like,

Starting point is 00:30:57 what is this all about? So you were super early, but happened to be at this place. Tell me, me what it was about that night and then your future with cage fighting. Yes, huge sports fan growing up loved everything. Like I said, basketball, baseball, football, all those things. But I was also a big combat sports fan. And my first love of any sport was probably pro wrestling. I remember being a five-year-old kid at the video store and wanting to rent WrestleMania. And I just loved it. I had all the toys. Of course, for a long time, I thought it was real, all that. So that's like the first thing. Wow, this guy versus this guy. Who's going to win? Who's the good guy? Who's the bad guy? then you are exposed to boxing, and this is like Mike Tyson era, and then Roy Jones era, and those guys,

Starting point is 00:31:39 and I'm sitting there at home, we're at my friend's house, or when we're older, we go to a pool hall and we're watching it's, wow, Las Vegas, look at the glitz, look at the glamour, look at the celebrities, look at the tuxedos, like, this is amazing. This is the culmination and the crescendo of these two people's lives coming together, who's going to be the winner, who's going to be the one who vanquishes the other. I just loved everything, the drama, the theater. And then in the mid-90s, I'm at my grandparents' house. And my grandparents in Montreal had one of those boxes where you can watch pay-per-view, like the scrambled box and all that or the unscrambled box. And C then becomes a thing.

Starting point is 00:32:14 And they would play it over and over again. And I remember watching these things. Like I would watch the wrestling pay-per-views at their house or the boxing paper views. And at first I was like, what is this? Is this real? Is this not real? Is this pro? They're fighting in a cage.

Starting point is 00:32:27 There's like a 400-pound sumo wrestler fighting a 85-pound or a high. 185 pound jujitsu guy, like what exactly is this? And then you start to learn more about it and you realize it is real, but it's called ultimate fighting. It's called cage fighting. It's a little bit wacky. And there will only be like three or four events a year, but it started to gain some momentum. And so when I get to Syracuse, I remember thinking to myself because I'm the kind of kid who like to be different. I like to march to the beat of my own drum. I remember for the first time thinking like, man, all these kids here want to be the same thing. They all want to be the next costus or Marv Albert. And I like to be different.

Starting point is 00:33:01 So that's when I told my parents, there's this thing called the UFC. There's this thing called MMA. There's no one really covering it. At the time, it's eight and a half years old. I want to be the guy. I want to be the face. I want to be the voice. I want to be the Howard CoSelle.

Starting point is 00:33:15 And again, they didn't bat an eye. They said, yeah, cool, go for it. They didn't know what I was talking about, but we're very supportive. And so I started to follow it a lot more. I had a radio show in college. I would reach out to fighters via their website, via social media, MySpace. and it just kind of started to grow. But then when I gradually...

Starting point is 00:33:33 It's so early, though. That's wild. You could see the future. This is going to be a thing. When I think a lot of us, me included, were like, there's no way that's going to grow. And now it took over the world. It was hard to get it on pay-per-view.

Starting point is 00:33:44 Yeah. But there was just something like rough and rugged about it, but the characters were great. There were guys like Tito Ortiz and Chuck Liddell and these larger-than-life kind of pro-wrestler-like characters, but they were doing real stuff. And so it was very fun. And I liked how, I don't know, wild and circus-like.

Starting point is 00:33:59 it all was. When I graduated though in 2004, I went down the path of TV production for a little bit, but I still was a massive fan, and in fact, I was becoming an even bigger fan, and in the back of my mind, this dream of being an MMA journalist was always present. And I was in Montreal in 2006 when a local guy named George St. Pierre was fighting for the UFC Walterway title against Matt Hughes. And so I convinced some friends of mine to come with me to champ sports bar in downtown Montreal and said, come, let's watch. It's one of our own fighting for a belt. This is a big freaking deal. And I thought there would be like 20 people there. It was very underground. And in fact, there was a line around the whole bar and of people waiting to go in. I was like, oh, wow,

Starting point is 00:34:43 people actually like this? Like me, this is incredible. None of my friends knew anything about it. And then he wins and the place explodes. Like the Canadians had just won the Stanley Cup. And that's when in my mind, I felt I really need to start doing this. Like I need to go back to being an MMA journalist and realizing that dream. Because if this sport elicits this kind of love and passion from people at this stage, they haven't even become mainstream yet, it's going to get almost tenfold bigger and more fun and there's still no one covering it the right way. I want to be a part of it. So I'm going to fast forward a little bit. You, I love the story. You become the guy. You're the number one guy of reporting on MMA. You've been that you've been given the award

Starting point is 00:35:21 for decades now, it feels like you're the number one guy, have been for a long time. But But relating back to wrestling from what you watched growing up, I feel like wrestling fans, they understand storylines maybe as well as anybody I've talked to. They just get it. They understand to work. They understand that feuds are good things. And so you found yourself in the middle of a number of feuds with Dana White's probably the most famous one and other people.

Starting point is 00:35:54 How much of those feuds are like an understanding? of storylines and wrestling and how much of meaning like it's not the worst thing that these are happening and how much of them are just like no this is just real I didn't want this to happen they just happened to happen it's a fantastic question so I would be lying if I said I wanted any of it to happen honestly I don't again I'm a person who tries to avoid conflict of any kind but it's a byproduct of the job and I'm also the type of person who doesn't back down in large part because of my parents and my family and they never backed down. So how could I? And why should I? Especially if I'm not doing anything wrong. I would say never seeked it, always try to diffuse it privately. I'm not one,

Starting point is 00:36:38 I don't try to get into like Twitter wars and things like that with other people. It seems like they spend their life over there trying to go back and forth. Things happen. Like something happened on my show on Wednesday and a fighter responded on Twitter. And instead of responding straight to them, I went and texted them. Because I don't think it needs. needs to always be played out in public. But if they're going to keep it up and lie or try to bend the truth, then I'm obviously going to respond because this was said on my show. That being said, to your point, which is a great point, having an understanding of pro wrestling and storylines and feuds, and I come out of my ESPN chapter is Heelwani and punching back and it's high road

Starting point is 00:37:16 hellwani no more and all that. Yeah, sure, there's a little bit of pro wrestling in there. And I love pro wrestling and I believe that there's a lot of elements in pro wrestling and a lot of different walks of life, including politics and whatnot. Good guy, bad guy, heel, face, all that stuff. So, of course, I'm sure some of that plays into it. But I don't want people to ever think that I'm playing a character. I think that's been part of the problem with sports media over the last few years and political media too. It feels like too many people are playing a character. I can assure you, I even sound the same, I speak the same, I dress the same. Here, if you see me at my kid's school. I'm not playing a character. I believe everything I say. I'm not

Starting point is 00:37:50 not trying to be polarizing for the sake of polarizing clicks, things of that nature. I'm just not that guy. I can't do that. I have to really believe it. But yes, showmanship and the idea of putting on a show and grabbing people. And most importantly, getting people emotionally invested. That's what pro wrestling has taught me most importantly. Getting people emotionally invested in caring, whether it's about me, the fighters, my show is most important. You can't just put out the show and walk away. You have to get people connected. And that's something that I've tried to do over the years. I think of Colin Cowhard said this a lot. I don't know if you know him or your friends, but he said, you don't have to necessarily be right to be you got to stay relevant. And so he's always

Starting point is 00:38:29 like making predictions. He's making these crazy statements. Some people hate him. Some people love him. It seems like he almost enjoys when people disagree or hate him. He's had a long broadcasting career. Still going strong. What do you think about that part of the job? I have an insane amount of respect for Colin. And he's way more successful than I currently am. He's also a little bit older than me. but I don't necessarily agree with that. I don't think that relevancy should trump the truth. I think that there's a world where you can be truthful and be even more relevant. I think part of the reason why a lot of MMA fans like my show is because they believe that

Starting point is 00:39:04 when you come to my content, I am going to tell you the truth. In a sport where things are twisted or maybe not told fully true and there's like a 50% part that is kind of made up or stretched or whatever, I'm the guy that's going to to tell you the truth because I'm not beholden to any organization or promotion. I don't have any conflicts, things like that. That was part of the problem. At ESPN, they were in bed with the UFC and they didn't want me to talk about certain things. And that was very frustrating. And that was the problem when I worked for Fox because they were in bed with the UFC and they didn't want me to talk about certain things. And so, yeah, there are some people who would say, bro, shut up. You got great gigs. But I just can't do

Starting point is 00:39:40 that. And I feel like I could still get great gigs elsewhere on platforms that maybe I help build or whatnot and not use someone else's platform to be the guy who tells it like it is. Because Howard CoSell, who was one of the people I looked up to, his catchphrase, if you will, was tell it like it is. And that from an early time was always something that will stay in my mind. If you're honest, if you tell the truth, if you tell the people what's up, if you're a good reporter, if you're a good journalist with ethics and morals, another person that I always looked up to, Walter Cronkite.

Starting point is 00:40:13 I wasn't alive in his heyday, but I was enamored with the way in which people viewed him. He was the anchor of the CBS Evening News, legendary broadcaster. And his moniker was the most trusted man in America. Imagine Uncle Walter, people called them. If he said it, the world believe it, and no one questioned it. And that to me is the greatest bit of compliment that anyone could give me as a broadcaster. Ariel said it, I believe it. And so these are all things that mean a hell of a lot more to me than being relevant.

Starting point is 00:40:44 Give me less views, but the trust of the people, and I'll take that every day. Do you feel like you have to become a character when you're in front of the camera, when you're on the mic? Do you feel like you have to perform to a certain character, or how much of it just, is it just you? I really feel like I'm the same guy. The reason I ask, so a personal thing. So you are one of my all-time favorite guest that goes on Pat McAvey-B Show with my brother, AJ. I love watching you guys. Is that your legitimate brother?

Starting point is 00:41:15 He's my brother. Yeah. Really? Wow. Yes. I love AJ. Me too. I've been seeing him the night for dinner.

Starting point is 00:41:22 So. Tell him I say hi. I didn't know that. That's incredible. Yeah. Anyway, but when you go on, you would like sometimes put on costumes like you're a wrestler. You would be, I don't know if I would say performing, but I always I wish he was on every day. I mean, I really wish you were on every day.

Starting point is 00:41:35 And honestly, I don't care that much about MMA. I just want to hear you go back and forth with the boys and make fun of each other. It feels a little bit. Maybe it's just that show, but it feels like a little bit of a performance. Okay, so that's a great question, and that's a great point. And now what I said at the beginning is starting to make a lot more sense because A.J. has told me that he's a big M.MA fan. So maybe through that type.

Starting point is 00:41:57 So I get it. I have a lot of respect for AJ. And how that makes sense. What's interesting about the McAfee thing is I haven't been on his show since the end of 2021. It's been a while. I was going to say, yeah, it feels like it's been a long time. Yeah. And if I'm being honest, I'm not quite sure why. He doesn't owe me anything. In fact, I owe him and I owe the show a lot because the Heilwani character, if you will, where I come on with a luchador mask and all that, I was kind of playing pro wrestler in a way, but in reality,

Starting point is 00:42:26 I felt so comfortable on that show, guard down, letting loose, that I felt they gave me the confidence to then bring that over into my other work. Because people would tell me like, you're different on that show than you are on ESPN. You're different on that show than you are on your regular show. And I was like, yeah, why is that? And it's because they, Pat is, I have so much respect for him and the team and what they built. And I will always root those guys on. Whether they have me or not, they don't know me anything.

Starting point is 00:42:52 It was an honor to be on once, let alone whatever it was. They, I don't know, knowingly or unknowingly, gave me this confidence to just kind of have fun and be myself and not take myself so seriously. Because again, you grow well. you grow up idolizing Walter Cronkite, Walter, excuse me, Howard Stern, Howard CoSull, like, these guys are the crem de la crem and you have to look a certain way and you have to be a certain way, you have to stand a certain way and you have to talk a certain way. You don't show up wearing a luchador mask and acting all crazy. But they gave me the power and the leeway to do that, and I do think it really had a trickle-down effect in my life. It helps when you have that kind of like

Starting point is 00:43:29 busting each other's balls like relationship. You know what I mean? People love going on that show. because they could just feel like it's so loosey-goosey. They can feel like they don't have to, actually, I would say, not play a character. You could just be yourself and just bust balls and make fun of each other. But yes, of course, that to a degree is me playing a character because I'm wearing the mask and all that. But in reality, the craziest thing ever, I don't even know if people remember it anymore now. But do you remember when Aaron Rogers came on the first time after the whole vaccine thing, the next guest, like it was Rogers and they were at like $150,000 was me.

Starting point is 00:44:03 me in the Lichador mask. And I remember saying like, how did this happen? Why would you book me right after him? And it was fun. I had a great time. And maybe I was used as some sort of levity after all that. But I, yeah, all very crazy. And I feel very thankful that I get opportunities like that.

Starting point is 00:44:20 It's very cool. I see like work in a basketball game too. But I read that a big moment happened after that basketball game where you were, you're almost not able to get on the plane was Milwaukee Bucks, Indiana Pacers, read it, where you're going to go be sideline guy, which is like completely different, but that actually led to a pivotal moment in your life. Can you go deeper there? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:44:40 Man, great research, by the way. Well done. I respected very much and appreciate it. I wanted to be a sideline reporter. I'm at ESPN. Part of the reason why I went to ESPN was I want to be not just the MMA guy. Like I said, I want to be the basketball guy. I want to be the football guy.

Starting point is 00:44:54 I want to be this, that and the other. And so one of my first things that I did when I got to ESPN was find out who the executive producer was of the NBA on ESPN, a guy named Tim Corrigan, tremendous guy. I walked into his office. And there's a lesson, I think, here for a lot of people. And I was like, hey, I have no credibility in the world of basketball. Very few people know who I am. I don't have many sources.

Starting point is 00:45:14 But if you ever need someone in the 11th hour, someone gets sick, someone gets hurt, like, I'll be your guy. I'll be your sideline reporter. I know to do that. And he said, I'll be honest, I've never heard of you. I've never seen MMA. I've never seen your work. But I've been here 20 plus years and no one has ever done what you just did.

Starting point is 00:45:31 So I'll keep you in mind, which was an amazing. thing to hear and kind of mind-blowing that no one does that. Like all the offices are right there. Just knock on the door. I love it. You got to go for it. You got to ask. You got to be willing to get embarrassed. What's the worst that happens? Yeah. He says, we're good. Yeah. All right. Shoot your shot. So anyway, it was great. It was very exciting. I got to work a couple of Christmas games. There I am. I'm working with Mike Breen and Jeff Van Gundy and I'm on the sidelines at these big, like, TD Garden, all this stuff. And then COVID happens. And so it's like, damn, I'm a year and a half into my time at ESPN and there's some momentum building here and I'm working summer league and all this

Starting point is 00:46:08 stuff but then everything shuts down and they reached out to me this is now February of 21 so COVID March 2020 there's a long stretch there and now things are starting to come up again but there's no one in the stands this is like the empty arena days and they reach out to me to work this bucks pacers game and this is part of the dream NBA sideline like I really wanted to do this but I was I don't know anxious or just kind of used to being at home with the family and nervous and I'm OCD and all this stuff and a bit of a germaphobe I'm not going to lie and I was just I was hit with this anxiety that I'd never felt before like at Syracuse I was hit with kind of depression but in in this particular case I was hit with anxiety and so I decided it's time to talk to someone this is

Starting point is 00:46:55 a normal and I found someone I found a therapist via recommendation first time I spoke to her I was crying my eyes out. I was praying for her to give me a reason not to go on this trip. I prayed, there was a snowstorm two days before the game and I prayed that my flight would get canceled. I was nervous about going and I did it and I actually like, I was so uneasy and nervous. I remember I went to LaGuardia and I'm sitting, I go through security and I'm sitting at the gate and I remember I'm about to get on the plane and I realize I don't have my suit bag with me. And so I'm now I'm starting to run up and down the airport looking for it if it fell on the ground. And then finally I got all the way back to the security bag thing and I left it there.

Starting point is 00:47:40 It's because my mind just wasn't there. And I remember then starting to get emotion. I'm like, I don't know if I could do this. I don't know if I could get on this flight. I don't know if I can actually do the job. I just hadn't been around people. I hadn't been on camera like that before. But it led to me talking to this therapist and it led to me speaking to this therapist for a

Starting point is 00:47:56 year and a half. And it led to me realizing that it was time to leave ESPN that there were. greater things out there for me, that life would be happier, that I wouldn't be shackled and all this stuff. And it was great. And that's why I tell people, it's not a bad thing. And in fact, speaking to someone can really truly change your life because I think it changed mine. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Do you still meet with the same person? No, maybe 2020. In the summer, I just kind of felt, I was like, I think I'm good. I think I'm a good spot. There are definitely been times where I'm like, do I need this? But right now, I think I'm good. And the beauty of it, and I think most people would say

Starting point is 00:48:31 this, most therapists would be like, if you ever need me, just hit me up. And she said that. And just knowing that I have that person in the back, in my emails, my contacts is a nice security blanket. But now I think I'm good for now, at least. You mentioned ESPN leaving and they didn't let you go. They offered you a contract and you declined. Contrary to what the internet says. Yeah. Why do you? Yeah. I guess I read the true part somewhere. Yeah. But why didn't you take it? I mean, almost everybody would take that. Why do you say, now I'm good? I'm going to go off on my own. Because by the end of my time, I was miserable. I felt soulless. One of the great, yeah, one of the great byproducts of my time at ESPN and during COVID. So I do this show where I interview fighters

Starting point is 00:49:15 and I'm in a studio and whatnot. And then COVID hits and I'm like, damn, how am I going to do this? And I have this relationship with this legendary fighter named Daniel Cormier. And so we decide to do this show called DC and Halwani, where it's just like us on Zoom every Monday. shooting the shit about MMA and it became more successful and more popular than anything I'd ever did. And it was great. And I thought, wow, this is amazing that we stumbled into this. But then what happened was it gained so much popularity that other people got involved and changed it and wanted to implement certain things and not let us speak about certain things and put in too many restrictions and rules. And this thing that I was so happy and excited about had been completely

Starting point is 00:49:56 ruined and that killed me. And there were so many politics for me at ESPN because of my relationship or lack thereof with Dana White and the UFC that it became so, it became uncomfortable for me going to events. They did not make me feel welcome. They made me feel lesser than, they would, you know, they would tell all the fighters and the managers to not give me information and to give it to the other reporter at ESPN so that I could be, I could look worse in the eyes of the bosses. Like they were trying to sabotage. my standing at ESPN. Now credit to ESPN, they still offered me a deal. Was it a good deal? No, it was just the same deal. There was no raise. So three years, there I am, doing NBA, doing ESPN

Starting point is 00:50:38 radio, doing E60, doing all this extra stuff, hoping to prove to them that I'm worth much more, and I got the same thing, and that was deflating. But I actually strongly considered, and was this close to just, I'm at ESPN, it's going to be fine. But part of what came about talking to the therapist was I realized that the main reason why I was considering staying was to stick it to the UFC and Dana White in particular, meaning I knew they wanted me out and I didn't want to let them win. And I was like, I'm just going to stay here just in spite of them. And then I realized that the only one really losing out in that arrangement is me. And so I had to figure that out. I had to open the clouds in my brain. And I realized that that was a real silly reason to stay at a job.

Starting point is 00:51:25 that's why I ultimately decided to move on. One more, man, before we go, I know I'm pushing the time limits here. Let's say you're meeting with somebody who's recently graduated from Syracuse. They're not 100% sure of what they want to do other than they know they want to leave a positive dent in the world. They want to do good. What are some general pieces of life slash career advice you'd give to them? Man, that is a tough one. Look, ultimately, I really do believe in trying to be the best human being that you can be.

Starting point is 00:51:55 and that is be kind. Like I said, empathy, I think is a really big thing. I try, like you, you emailed me. Even if I can't do it, I try to reply to everyone. I try to write. I try to be, because I need to reach out to people. I guess I believe in karma. And so if I'm trying to reach out to someone to be on my show,

Starting point is 00:52:13 I hate when they don't reply to me. And so I don't want to be that guy. And that's just not about this arrangement. That's just life, right? Treat others how you want to be treated. And if you can help someone, if you can give some time, if you can be of any value or help to someone else. Like, if it's not a detriment to you, then try to do that.

Starting point is 00:52:31 And I really try to put it out there so that good comes back to me. And I don't try to put it out there so only I benefit from it, but I just believe in that way of life. And the other thing is that's been a big thing for me throughout my journey is I just, I really, I always think about this. I don't want to be 80 years old in bed saying, man, I blew it. You only had one life and you wasted your time doing this, doing that, not going after it, not dreaming big, not dreaming bigger.

Starting point is 00:53:01 I just, I really believe we only get one shot and I believe going out there. And so that's why I go and knock on the ESPN NBA guy's door, right? And that's why I try to do all kinds of things that maybe the MMA guy, like a lot of people say stick to MMA. No, why? I'm not just an MMA guy. I have other interests and passions and I feel like I can offer a lot more. I would be doing myself a disservice.

Starting point is 00:53:22 I don't want to leave MMA, but I can do way more than that. And so go out there, dream big, don't quit. And probably the final thing, and I say this, I was just talking to some high school kids very recently. And no one probably knows this more than me. I'm sure I know other people have been dealt bad hands and obstacles, but like, man, I've had to eat a lot of shit sandwiches over the course of my career. And I've had very powerful people tell me that I was done, that I wouldn't work,

Starting point is 00:53:47 that my dreams were over and all this stuff. I refuse to let someone write my story. I refuse to let someone determine what I'm going to be or where I'm going to go. So you feel sorry for yourself for an hour. You dust yourself off and you stick it to them and you keep on going. And that's just the only way I know how to live. I love it, man. Hey, just so you know about the response to the email.

Starting point is 00:54:07 Okay. And what I was feeling that day. So I've been writing you emails for a long time wanting you to come on this show. Oh, wow. The problem is. I'm actually an asshole. You know, you'll see why you were not. I've been guessing what your email address is.

Starting point is 00:54:20 I don't know. I didn't know. And I finally guessed right. Wow. And that's so when I saw a response, and I think it was pretty quick too. I was like, I remember I told my wife, oh my God, I finally guessed it right now. Now, I've done this with a few people where I guess if I don't know, I just have to take good educated guesses, but I got to write a good email every time, even if the chances of it being right are one in a million. In this case, I don't want to say your email or even give people a chance to guess it. But I mean, I guessed right. And so when you respond, I'm like, there's no way. There's a way because I've guessed wrong quite a bit.

Starting point is 00:54:52 So I really appreciate the fact that I guessed right, Ian, that you responded and that we made this happen, man. Oh, yeah, for sure. And yeah, sorry. By the way, I find it actually interesting because I've had AJ on my YouTube. Why didn't you just ask your brother for my... I don't like making withdrawals like that. I respect that.

Starting point is 00:55:08 I respect that. But it would have been okay. And then the other thing is that because I do my show, M.M.A. Hour, there's probably like 11 to 12 guests booked a week on the two shows. since 2009, I'm the only person to have ever booked a guest on that show. So it's a lot of freaking bookings. And it's probably my least favorite part of my life and job just because of the chase. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:55:31 But is there any better feeling? And I'm not saying I'm that guy, but is there any better feeling when you get that response? And you're like, yes. You know what I mean? Absolutely. It's one of the coolest part. I mean, the first three and a half years of this show, it was 100% cold emails. Now there's a lot of back and forth.

Starting point is 00:55:48 There's PR people. There's a lot of help. But I still book every guest myself, too, and still want to get in the habit of sending cold emails because I think that's a good practice in life to be able to be willing. Steve Jobs has a big, nice speech about being willing to ask. The difference between the dreamers and the doers ask. They're not embarrassed. The worst thing that could happen is they say no, just like you to the ESPN guy. That's why I love that story so much. And what happened? You're on the sideline of NBA games, right? It changed your life. It actually ended up being a pivotal moment for one of them that opened up your life. think that's one of the biggest messages. I don't know. There's a fear of rejection so much. I had a job

Starting point is 00:56:23 in telephonic sales for a few years out of college after I got done playing football. And that was one of the best things that could ever happen to me because I got rejected 60 to 70 times a day. Yeah. Like, how good is that? The same thing with having a podcast, you're going to get ignored a lot. You are going to get rejected all the time. What do you do? You just go on to the next one. You just ask again. You just keep out. I think that's one of the keys. Or you're not going to be able to have a show like yours if you're not willing to do it. It's not always fun, but I think it's a good skill to develop for anybody. What's interesting, I do the MMA show since 2009, and then I get this Showtime sports opportunity to do a basketball pod. And they tell me like, hey, yeah,

Starting point is 00:57:01 we're going to help you booking the guests, and they don't help me. And so now it's, the show's about to start in mid-March, and I start to have a bit of a panic attack. I don't know anyone in basketball. Like, I know, like, I know, I think a couple of guys follow me on Instagram because they're fight fans, but I don't know. I can't just, I could text Connor McGregor right now, and he'll probably get back to me within the next 10 hours. I don't know the equivalent of him, and those are the types of guests that I want. You know what I mean? Like, I have no connection to them. And man, there was like a stretch there where I was sending, just like my old days, 15, 20 messages to anyone that I could think of and was getting nothing back. Absolutely

Starting point is 00:57:39 nothing back, no response. And it's a bit humbling, too, because in M&A, I can reach out to the top guys and they'll respond like this. And then one responds and two responds and three responds. And you're like, all right, now you're rolling. Now you're rolling. But it was a good reminder and lesson of the early days, the humble beginnings and saying, just because you're that guy in MMA, you ain't shit anywhere else. Keep fighting, keep grinding, put your elbows out and good things happen. It's good for you. It's good for you to go through that stuff. It's good for all of us. Good for us. Thanks, man. I really appreciate it. I love this conversation. I appreciate you being so vulnerable and opening up and sharing. It makes it a lot of fun.

Starting point is 00:58:14 I would love, man, to continue our dialogue as we both progress. This is so much fun. For sure. Thank you. Again, great stuff. I very much enjoy your style, and I appreciate a good interviewer who does his research. So well done. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:58:27 And glad we got it done. Sorry about the lack of responses. Not your fault, dude. That was my. Hey, we finally got there. That's why you just got to keep going. We've got to keep going. Amen.

Starting point is 00:58:35 Anyway, thank you, man. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. are, send me a note, Ryan at learning leader.com. Let me know what you learned from this awesome conversation with Ariel Helwani. A few takeaways from my notes, 80% of success is showing up. Your children will value your presence more than your presence. Whether it's work or at home, we have to show up day after day after day. As Mayor Eric Adams said on this show, not going to win with brilliance to make up for that. I have to endure. And I think

Starting point is 00:59:16 the same can be said for showing up day after day, just like Ariel's dad did and just like he does. Next, make the ask. Ariel knocked on the door of a senior executive at ESPN. The guy didn't even know who he was, and he asked to be a sideline reporter for basketball games, even though he's an MMA guy. The senior exec said, nobody's ever done that in my 20 years here. I think it's a great example. If you want something, ask for it. Steve Jobs said the difference between the people who dream about stuff and the people who make it happen is their willingness to ask. You've got to ask. Next, what it takes to be a great interviewer, be overly prepared. Ask thoughtful questions. Don't script it, right? Really listen. Deeply listen. Look them in the eye. Listen all the way till the end

Starting point is 01:00:07 and then ask follow-ups. The best questions are almost always follow-up questions. Make it feel more like a conversation so that people feel this camaraderie between you two like they're sitting next to you at a restaurant. That's what I try to do on this podcast and I hope it feels that way. Once again, I always say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Ariel Halwani. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that.

Starting point is 01:00:38 And then you go to Spotify or Apple Podcast and you subscribe and you rate the show five stars, hopefully and you write a thought forward you all those things helps spread the message and by doing that you are sharing it and helping this thing grow and for that I will forever be grateful thank you so so much talking soon can't wait

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 564: Ariel Helwani - The Howard Cosell of MMA, Conducting World-Class Interviews, Feuds With Dana White, Leaving ESPN, & Dealing With Social Anxiety

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