The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 584: Craig Robinson - The "Must-Have" Qualities For Coaching Excellence, Becoming a Better Listener, Learning From a Legend, and Thanksgiving Dinner With a Young Barack Obama

Episode Date: May 26, 2024

Our new book, The Score That Matters, is a USA Today Best-Seller! Buy it here: https://amzn.to/44HucGf Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Craig Robinson is the host of Ways to Win. He's the executive director of the National Association of Basketball Coaches (NABC). From 2017-2020, he served as the VP of Player Development for the New York Knicks. Previously, he was a Division I head men's basketball coach at Oregon State and Brown. He also is the brother of former First Lady Michelle Obama. Notes: What Craig learned from Coach Pete Carill about recruiting: There is a sales element to it. And one of the most important skills to develop is to become a great LISTENER. Ask questions, listen, and ask more questions. Curiosity is the ultimate form of respect. Coach Carill won over Craig's dad because he was curious. That's a good lesson for all of us. President Obama (Craig's brother-in-law) said Craig's discipline and diligence enhanced his presidential campaign. "Craig doesn't profess to know the specifics of politics the way he knows the X's and O's of basketball, but I think what he does understand is the need to wake up every morning doing your best and having a positive attitude. And him communicating that to me was always very helpful." When (future President) Barack Obama was dating Craig's sister (Michelle), he told their family at Thanksgiving dinner that he had aspirations and a plan to be the President of the United States. It seemed crazy at the time, but he made it happen. What are the "must-have" qualities to be a coach on Craig's staff? Connect with people Lifelong learning Curiosity Fill in gaps (be strong where Craig is not) Must be a good listener What Craig looked for in a player when recruiting: Baseline talent (table stakes) 2-3 "bucket-getters" High IQ Flexible After graduating from Princeton, where he played for Pete Carril and was twice named the Ivy League player of the year, Criag wanted to coach. Instead, he went to graduate school and succeeded in the financial world, including spending seven years as a vice president at Morgan Stanley Dean Witter. Then, he pivoted away and took an assistant job on Bill Carmody's staff at Northwestern. That job eventually led Robinson to Brown, where in two seasons he overhauled the program with his work ethic, tough love, and relentless demands on his players. He put a dictionary in the locker room for players to look up the words he used, a tradition that has continued at Oregon State. What made him not immediately go into coaching? Pete Craill telling him to get a real job. It's amazing the influence the people we look up to can have on us. Craig's fondest memory? January 20, 2009. He went to President Obama's inauguration in Washington D.C. He then flew to a game on the west coast (as the head coach of Oregon State). And received a standing ovation from the visiting team's crowd as he walked out!

Sports has the ability to bring people together, to transform. Even if you don't play any sports, you have been coached because your parents are your first coaches. College coach played basketball at Princeton. I look for lifelong learners. You had to outwork folks, outthink folks, and out-scheme them. So you need players who can change. What made you leave basketball and then also what made you come back? I always like to acknowledge when somebody asked me a question that no one's asked me before.

This is one. He said, you don't want to be a fucking coach? And I was stunned. It would be just your luck to be a black kid from the south side of Chicago with a Princeton degree. And all you can do is hang on to this basketball. When your sister marries this skinny dude named Barack Obama, fast forward to 2008, you become a head coach for the first. time. Your sister has a pretty big job as well. It was as if I was watching myself out of body. I come out to this roaring standing ovation. It was the most remarkable thing I'd ever been a part of in

basketball. What if you had access to tomorrow's tools today? Well, and Notion you do. It's the AI-powered workspace where any team can turn ideas into action. Notion is the AI-powered workspace where the everyday everything takes care of itself. Meetings have summaries, docs find themselves, and every question has an answer. Notion can help everyone. If you like, you can try Notion for free when you go to Notion.com slash learning leader. all lowercase letters, notion.com slash learning leader and start turning ideas into action. And remember when you use our link, you're supporting our show.

Notion.com slash learning leader. Welcome to the learning leader show presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. text Hawk to 66866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email for me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right. You'll also receive details about how my book The Score That Matters will help you become a more effective leader. Text Hawk to 66866.

Now on to tonight's featured leader. A great one. Craig Robinson is the host. of ways to win. He's the executive director of the National Association of Basketball Coaches. From 2017 to 2020, he served as the VP of Player Development for the New York Knicks. Previously, he was a Division I head men's basketball coach at Oregon State and Brown. He also happens to be the brother of former First Lady Michelle Obama. During this conversation, we discuss the number one thing he looks for when hiring a coach for his staff as well as the number one attribute he wants in a player he recruits for his teams. And then Craig shared the wild prediction that a young Barack Obama said to him

at their first family Thanksgiving when he was dating Craig's sister. That prediction happened to come true. What a cool story. And then he shared a few key lessons he learned from the legend coach Pete Carill when he played for him at Princeton. So good. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Craig Robinson. All right, Coach Rob, it is awesome to have you here on the Learning Leader Show. Welcome. Thanks, Ryan. It's great to be here. And I'm excited to be on. I've listened to a couple of your shows. And you've been on a whole lot longer than we've been on. but I really appreciate you having me on. Of course, man.

I love it when I see a story about somebody who was played for a legendary coach. And I get so curious to learn about their learnings from that coach. So you played basketball at Princeton and played for the legendary Pete Carill. Right. I would love to hear either a couple of cool coach Carill stories or some of the key learnings that you took away from playing for him. Well, I will tell you, getting to know Coach Carill was just a fascinating experience for me in and of itself, but there are plenty of stories and plenty of lessons learned. So I've got, I can, you just stop me when you've had enough. But I will, I will tell you about the first time I met Coach Carill in a, where I got to sit and talk to him, you know, because

back in the day, and I graduated from high school in 1979, college in 1983. So he was recruiting me in the 70s. So that was before NIL. It was before the transfer portal and all that. You picture school, you were going there no matter what. And he came to visit me, and I'll paint a little bit of a picture of my upbringing. We lived in a two-family home where my great-aunt lived downstairs, and owned the home and rented it to my parents. And it was just the four of us in a one-bedroom apartment. So my sister and I shared a bedroom, which was really supposed to be the living room. And my mom and dad were in the bedroom.

And our dining, what was supposed to be the dining room was the living room. And then we had a kitchenette where you could seat four people. And I thought that what one, coach Carrill over on me was not my playing because he didn't think I was very good, although he thought not many people were very good. But he came into that little bitty apartment and saw my dad there who worked for the city of Chicago in the water department, blue collar worker wore a uniform, worked a swing shift, who had MS and walked with those kind of crutches that wrap around your arms and he saw my dad who was who was trying to convince his son why he should go to a place

like Princeton that was when coach when I I saw coach carrill he talked to my dad the whole time he didn't talk to me at all he talked to my dad the whole time asked him about his background and and you know you've done your research coach carills from a small town Pennsylvania town Bethlehem, Lafayette, Pennsylvania. He went to Lafayette College from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, you know, hard working folks back there. So he could appreciate that. So I think he knew he would be getting a hardworking guy if I got there.

And so that was my, that was the origin story of meeting Coach Carrille. Now, other times he had just come watch me play a couple of times and that was it. But when he came to visit my house, that was when I knew my dad was not. not going to let me go anywhere, but Princeton. Isn't it like curiosity, coach, the ultimate form of respect that coach Carrillo was curious about your dad and wanted to, like it feels to me at least from your story that he wanted to truly learn about him the way he is, the way he probably led your family, and that won your dad over?

Absolutely, Ryan. And I will tell you, I didn't realize this when it was happening. happening, right? This comes later after I started working and being an adult and understanding what recruiting people to your organization was like. And then I became a college coach and I saw what going into a living room was like. That's when I realized that this guy who had been in many, many different living rooms from what we had, he was so focused on communicating to the decision maker in the household. It was like he was the consummate salesman.

He knew right away, and I know you've had some background in sales, he knew right away who was making the decision and what he needed to do to win that person over in order to get the sale. And I don't mean that in a in a in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, a, in a, uh, dastardly way, right? I think, I think it was just, it, it, it was. It was talent. Absolutely. I think sales is an extremely noble job.

And we're all selling every day, by the way, regardless of what it is. Whether you sell as a coach, you sell as a professional sales rep or you carry a bag, you have a product, whatever it may be. Everything needs to be sold. And so in this case, it sounds like coach was selling the idea of him taking care of you, essentially, right? Leaving home, going to be with him. You would spend the majority of time with your coaches.

Yep. And so he understood who the decision maker, was and he sold them. So now let's fast forward. And when you're a coach and you're recruiting, what did you take from Coach Carill and others maybe in your life that made you a good recruiter? So I love that question. And thanks for that, Ryan. You know, what I, the main thing that I took from Coach Carill coming into my living room was that he did a whole lot of listening. And I've been in living rooms both as the recruited and the recruiter where the recruiter is doing all the talking. And that's what I took from Coach Correa.

I learned from him that you can learn a lot more with your, you know, the old saying, you got two ears and one mouth, right? You can learn a lot more about people and about the situations. if you just sit back and sort of observe, listen, and be empathetic to the other person's situation. So that was the biggest thing I did, Ryan, when I went into living rooms, is I asked a lot of questions and I sat back and listened. I think building a basketball team has some carryover to building a team within a company, right? You've done it in all different areas. You've worked in corporate America. you've worked in sports, right?

Right. So I'm curious, let's do it two parts. I'm going to ask about assistant coaches, so building a staff, and I also want to ask about players. Okay. So let's start with your staff. What are some of the must have qualities and characteristics in somebody who's going to be an assistant coach on your staff? Okay. So that's a terrific question.

There's two parts to it. The first thing that I looked for, and not everybody does it my way, but the first thing that the first thing I looked for was someone who could connect with people. Didn't have to have any basketball knowledge or skill whatsoever. That helped. But if I found the best connector in the world, I would hire them and then teach them all the basketball stuff because that connecting is sometimes innate. Like some people, it can be learned behavior, but there the authenticity of people who

know how to connect is just there. So that's number one. Number two is kind of like you and your show and your sort of mantra, I look for lifelong learners. I look for people who are always willing to take on something new as if they were in third grade again and then be willing to put themselves out there so that they could fail in order to get better. Those two non-basketball attributes are what I look for the most. Because then I think I can teach them anything. I can teach them how to sell. I can teach them how to run the Princeton offense. I can teach them how to teach kids how to cut back door and all that kind of stuff. And so the second part of that, so those are the main characteristics that I look for in coaches. But the one thing that I was always keeping an

eye out for was somebody who had the things that I felt like I wasn't the strongest at. So I was, I was completely insecure like a basketball coach is about the things that I wasn't an expert in. So for me, when I first became a head coach, it was the fact that I was a young head coach, right? So I wanted to get somebody who had some experience, who was older, and who I could point to and say, hey, listen, you've been through this. I haven't. Help me get through this. right? And I was always an offensive coach because I think that's what players typically are.

Players, guys who play come in. I know how to score. I know how to put together an offense. And in basketball, up until about eight years ago, you didn't have an offensive specialist and a defensive specialist. You did everything. That was the beauty of playing basketball. You got to be on both sides of the ball. But I always found that, I was much more attuned to figuring out how to score. So I'd try and find somebody who was creative defensively and could help me with that. So you have the one part where I'm looking for that sort of connector life learner part, and then I'm looking for the person who could add, who could help make me better.

Yeah. I love the quality, especially your second one. I mean, connecting with people, yes, for sure. But this idea of being a lifelong learner, when you're in the interview process, process. How do you suss out if they're a lifelong learner or not? You know, I talk to candidates a lot about what they did with their leisure time. Ah. What do you do with your leisure time? And, you know, some guys will say I read a lot of books

and then you ask them, what books are you reading? And they name off one book, right? Like, and I'm not trying to put anybody on the spot. I'm just trying to figure out who really likes to read and it's not always reading books like if the guy said you know I listen to music and I'm you know and and I say what do you listen to and then he run he rambles off you know three different genres and a bunch of different musicians then I'm thinking this guy and and one of them is is youthful like hip hop or rap and I'm like okay now this is a 40 year old guy who's he's learning all the time in the music area right so So there are ways you can sort of, to use your word, suss it out without sort of saying,

hey, are you a lifelong learner? And the guy saying yes, right? So those are a couple of ways I would do it. And then, you know, I always feel like if I propose a question that I don't know the answer to. And so my goal is to find a question they don't know the answer to if they're, if they try and bluff their way through it, that's one thing. But if they say, you know, I don't know about that. I should I should really look that up or think about that.

That to me is a telltale sign that they're willing to be a learner. They're willing, you know, non-life long learners would just be, they're trying to bogart their way through that answer. That's a good point. I didn't think of it that way, but somebody who has the confidence and willingness to say, huh, that's a good one. I'm not exactly sure, but I am curious about that. That's such a better answer.

And obviously, if it's genuine, like the whole thing needs to be genuine. And if it's genuine versus the person who you can tell. Like, I know interview a lot of people. At times, people are fully making it up as they go. And you're like, I don't think this guy knows how this is going to end because he's truly making it up as he goes versus the ones who you could tell have done some work and know themselves, have done some reflection work and have a curiosity. That's interesting.

Okay. Now let's go on to the actual players. Okay. And it's, I'm sure there's some similarities and some differences differences. Now, table stakes obviously are that they can play, right? They can shoot past, play defense. They hustle right. I assume, you know, there are some table stakes to a basketball player.

You're not going to give me a scholarship when I'm a football player. and am just a very below average shooter and basketball player, right? So what are you looking for when you're going to give a scholarship offer to a high school kid to play on your team? Or nowadays, it would also be a transfer portal. When you're recruiting, what are you looking for? Well, let me start off by saying, don't be so sure I wouldn't give you a scholarship as a football player

depended on your leadership skills and your basketball. You haven't seen me shoot the three, coach. You got it. But, and you know what else affects that? If the other 12 guys I've already given scholarships too can cover up your bad play, I might. So that's something to keep in mind. Don't sell yourself short just yet. But you're absolutely right.

The talent is the first thing because no matter what anybody says about these jobs, especially these days, but even when I was coaching, if you don't win and you're just graduating players, you're going to get fired. Yeah. Right. You're going to get fired. So there's a baseline of talent that you'd look for. So let's, let's just presume that for everybody else. Then it would depend, and especially with basketball, because you have such a small roster, what you need. But if you're building a team from scratch, you need two or three guys who can just get you buckets both in and outside the offense. So they can score within. the system and score without the system. Because what you'll find in basketball is you only need two or three guys who can do that and you can build, you can complement them with other players. And if those players happen to be your highest IQ basketball players, that's the second thing I look for, right? I'm looking for high IQ basketball players who can score. And high IQ means that

they're smart enough that even though their scores, they can be effective defenders as well and understand and learn the systems that you might want to do. And see, I've never had the benefit of coaching the best teams. So I've always had to put together teams where you had to outwork folks, outthink folks, and out scheme them. So you need players who can change. And almost like the lifelong learning type thing. The players are, they're flexible enough to be open to saying, okay, if we're not playing running gun game, we're okay playing a slowdown game. So I take that into consideration. So you have your first three players. You look for somebody who's big. And the way we played offense, our bigs had to handle the ball. So I was looking for a basketball

playing big man, which now everybody is now. But, you know, 20 years ago, not everybody did that. And certainly when I was at Princeton, everybody was a sort of one, two, three, four, five position guy. And I got to Princeton and Coach Carrillo was teaching us how to play positionist, positionless basketball in the early 80s. So, so I always had the penchant for having guys who could dribble past and shoot no matter how tall they were. The taller, the better. Interesting. And then once you get that sort of baseline skill level, you're looking for guys who can work hard and who you would be able to develop into good players.

So good athletes with good attitudes and high ceilings. High ceilings where you can make them into the player you want them to be or make them into the player that they see themselves being three years down the road. Gotcha. The interesting thing about your career, you finished playing, and I read that you wanted to coach, but you left basketball temporarily to go to graduate school and then work for Morgan Stanley Dean Witter. Yep.

I'm curious, what made you leave basketball and then also what made you come back? Let me tell you this story, Ryan. And you know how these interviews go, right? Like for folks like us, we get interviewed, we interview. we interview, I always like to acknowledge when somebody asked me a question that no one's asked me before. This is one. Nobody's really gotten that granular to see, hey, why did you do that? That didn't make a lot of sense. Well, here, I'm going to tell you the story. I got, so I was, I got drafted by the Sixers, the year after they won the championship, got cut,

when overseas and played for a couple of years. And the team I played for was, in Manchester, England, and the coach's name was Tom Becker, and he was a basketball head, right? So he knew who Coach Carrille was. That's probably how I got the job, right? He was looking for players. My agent called, so who do he play for? He's like, okay. And so I went over there on a trial basis at first.

But then he said to me, he said, Craig, you think you could put some Princeton offense in for us? And I was like, well, yeah, I was like, yeah, I just finished doing it. and had no intention of coaching at that point in time. It wasn't like it was an option in my head at all. So I start putting that stuff together. And we go from being like there are 12 teams in the league. We were 12th when I got over there. And I think we got up to fourth or third. Right. So I'm thrilled. I go back. I'm flying back from England. I'm stopping off at Princeton to see my sister and to say hi to the guys who I played with and see Coach Carrillo. I went in to talk to Coach Carrillo, I was like, coach, I know what I want to do. I want to be a coach.

And this is what he said to me. You don't want to be a fucking coach. And I was like stunned. And he said, it would be just your luck to be a black kid from the south side of Chicago with a Princeton degree. And all you can do is hang on to this basketball. You go to work and I'll figure out when you should coach. And he said it just like that. So it wasn't like he didn't think I could coach. He thought coaching was down here and I was made for something up here. And to this day, when I tell that story, I will always want to get to that part because it sounds like he was being an asshole, but he wasn't.

He was like, I told your dad I'd get you out of the south side of Chicago. And I'm going to do that. I'm not letting you go back and be like a gym teacher and coach basketball because that's how you have. had to get into it back then. And it wasn't, it wasn't this grand vocation where you could earn millions of dollars, right? And so being the dutiful player, I was like, okay, coach, and I stopped playing and went and got a job in finance. And one of our former players, John Rogers, who played at Princeton, runs aerial mutual funds now, aerial capital management. He was my roommate on the road when he was at Princeton, I went right to him, gave my resume, and I was like, look, I got to get a real

job. And that was how I got into the financial services. So that is why I didn't go straight into coaching. Wow. Isn't it wild these coaches who we love and respect so much, and we still fear them a little bit so that even so much so that you didn't play for him anymore, you were doing other things. You tell them what you want to do. I want to follow in your footsteps, coach. And he's like, no you're not going to do that I had coached like this in my life if my high school almost a coordinator had this talk with me I would probably still do what he tells me to this day that's how much I love him and fear him it feels like how wild is it though that you you were like okay I guess I'm not going to coach I got to go get a real job even though

that's not what you wanted to do Ryan let me tell you it was as if my father himself told me yeah yeah it was as if my father himself told me and That's a credit I will give to my dad, too. My dad was not afraid of other people coaching me, right? Because I always say that, you know, even non-athletes, like you and I were fortunate enough to play high-level sports, right? And most people don't even play high school. That's what they don't, that's what people don't realize. Most people don't even get to play in high school. You and I, we've gotten to play at a higher level. Even if you don't play any sports, you have been coached because your parents are your first coaches.

And people don't give them that credit. And I give my dad, Frazier Robinson, who missed out on all this great stuff because he died. Oh, my gosh, my oldest son is 32. So he died 33 years ago. So he missed all of our, you know, success and things of that nature. But he was never afraid to let other people coach us because he knew ultimately, if they didn't know what they were talking about, he could always talk to us in the car, right? or talk to us when we got home. But I'm telling you, Coach Carrille said, you don't want to be a coach. And I was like, oh, shoot, I'm glad I talked to you because that's exactly what I was going to do. You know, it was no hesitation. And I went and got a job and that started me on the path that I was on. But I always thought that I would teach seventh grade and coach high school basketball, even when I was, you know, trading bonds at Morgan Stanley.

I was thinking, okay, if I get this bonus this year, this bonus next year. By the time I'm 45 to 50 years old, I'll be able to teach seventh grade and coach high school basketball. So that was, it turned into being my exit plan instead of my plan plan. Wow. What do you think your dad would have thought of like what his kids would go on to do? I mean, I can't even imagine. What do you think he would have thought? I don't think he could imagine. I think, so he and my mom both were, they tried to go to college. started college, but they didn't graduate. So they weren't even college graduates. I don't think anybody could have imagined what would have ended up happening. But I tell people all the time,

my dad knew because I wanted to go to somewhere else and not to Princeton. And he sort of made me go there without forcing me to go there. He helped me make the right decision. How did you do that? So it gets down to decision-making time. I'm getting recruited by the University of Washington, the University of Texas Arlington, Kentucky State, and Princeton. Now, that sounds like a crazy hodgepodge, but you got to remember, there was no social media back there, and it was almost AAU was almost non-existent. I played in one AAU tournament of summer, right? So you had to be lucky to recruit the right guys from these different areas. So my dad, so we're in the kitchen. And I remember this like it's yesterday,

because our kitchen was really small. So my mom's doing the dishes. We're done eating. My dad and I are sitting there talking. My sister's gone somewhere else. And my dad says, so what are you thinking about this school decision? And I was like, I was prepared for it, right? And I was like, well, I think I know where I want to go. And he said, well, tell me, tell me what's going. on. I said, he said, I think I want to go to the University of Washington. And my dad does what dads do when they know you've made the wrong decision. Now, for your listeners, they can't see this, but you can see it. My dad held his head back almost so that the back of his head hit the, hit the chair, and he stroked his neck underneath his chin real slowly. And then he put his chin to his

chest and started rubbing. He used to rub his whiskers on his chest. And everybody in our family knew that was him when he was mad, but he never would blow his stack. So I'm like, oh, my goodness, what is he disappointed about? I'm telling him I'm going to this university. And he calmly says, tell me why you picked University of Washington. And I said, well, I had my list all set because you tell we've had these kinds of discussions before. So he's trained me. I said, it's in the PAC eight. It's a good conference. They have a great engineering program, and I was going to major in engineering at the time. And I said, and I said, and I worked out with those guys. And I think by the time I'm a junior, I might have a chance of getting some real playing time. And he said,

and then I said, and it's free. And the reason why I said it was free was because they were offering me a scholarship. But I don't know if you know this, Ryan, but Ivy League schools don't have scholarships. It's all financial aid. And what they told me our package was, so at the time, it was $13,000, which sounds like nothing. But that sounded like $13 million to me. And our family contribution was going to be $2,000, which I I thought was like $2 million. I had no idea what that meant. But I was like, there's no need to worry about it. I'm getting free over here.

And my dad said, well, those are some really good reasons. But I'll just tell you one thing. If you pick your school based on how much I have to pay, I'm going to be really disappointed. And you can imagine when a guy like that who gets up and goes to work every day, crutches, limping. If he's disappointed, the whole house is disappointed, right? So he said, so why don't you think about it overnight and then let me know what your decision is tomorrow. So the next day comes around, I think about it. I'm like, I'm like, I don't know what this dude is thinking about. But I was thinking, you know, I kind of like Princeton. And so we get, we're in the same

situation the next day. My sister's not there. My mom's doing the dishes. We're sitting there. Everything's exactly the same except our clothes are different. And what we had for dinner was different. And he said, so did you think about what I asked you about, what we talked about yesterday? And I said, yeah, actually, I kind of liked her. And before I could get out the instant, he was like, fine, you'll go there. So he knew what he wanted. He knew what I needed to, what I really wanted, he just needed to get me there. And the, the, the epilogue of the story is obviously I went to Princeton and had this huge amount of success both in college and then after. But I'm going through, my dad passes away.

mom and I are going through his bills and records and stuff. And I find this stack of canceled checks and bills for credit card. And I was like, Mom, what's all these credit card bills? She was like, give me that. And I was like, no, no, no, no, what is this? She was like, no, no, you weren't supposed to see that. Frazier made me promise not to let you see that. They had put all of it on credit cards because they couldn't afford it.

Wow. And we're paying it off. And you talk about sacrifice for your kids. And, you know, my sister ended up coming to Princeton, too. So, you know, whatever that cost. And they just made it work because they thought it was worth it. Wow. I know.

That's a long answer to your question, but I needed to share that with you. That's so cool. What a story. And it's inspiring as a dad. I think of that stuff. When I hear a story of a dad doing that, not wanting any credit, specifically trying to hide it from you. not you know it was just it was just all about your kids and I think that's that is an inspiring story

to hear as a dad coach let's let's fast forward to 2008 quite a year quite a year yeah okay you become a head coach for the first time your sister has a pretty big job as well which brought you into the spotlight even more in addition to being a college basketball division one head coach at Oregon state what was the end of 2008 like for you Well, it was, man, it was the, everybody, I think people overused the term surreal, but I got to tell you, the whole time we're going through that whole campaigning and the election and me coaching through all of that. Yeah. It was as if I was watching myself out of body. I bet.

I mean, I'm looking at all the stuff going on and people are, I mean, and, you know, With this face, my sister and I look exactly alike. So I can't go anywhere because she's now iconic, right? I can't go anywhere. At that time, it was strangers coming up and saying congratulations. And I mean Democrats and Republicans. Like it was one of those things where it was like you lost a game in the national championship and you gave your props to the other side. It doesn't happen now.

That stuff ain't happening now. I wish you did. Because people don't, people don't understand the position I was in to be able to see all of that. Because, you know, people couldn't get to my sister and my brother-in-law, but they could get to me, right? Do you have secret service help or anything like that? You know, we declined that. So you could have, but you didn't want it? No, no, no. And part of the reason was we were living in Corvallis, Oregon at the time, which was great. Right.

So we didn't really think that and our kids were like, and people don't realize how completely intrusive that is. Yeah. So and it's very expensive. And the last thing I needed to do to be now was to have somebody say, well, you know, Craig Robinson spending X million dollars on security. So we just sort of had to thug through it on our own. And it was fine. I never felt threatened. I never felt like we like, oh man, I should a guy should have taken them up on that if I could have. And sort of being the coach, you have to be able to be able to move certain places with quickness. You can't do that if you've got a detail. And it was incredibly humbling, too, to see this whole system work and all the things that you just see from the outside. You get to see from the inside. So there was a lot going on. But my fondest, memory of that time when they, when Barack got elected. Now, when I was at Brown University, I was campaigning on my off day, right? Because you can't do stuff like campaigning when you're

working. So on my off day, I'd be a surrogate. I go make speeches and, and things of that nature. Anything I could do to help. But the year he got elected, the inauguration was in January. So it was in January of 2009, right? He gets elected in 2008, January 2009. We're in the midst of the Pact 12 season. I fly my wife, Kelly, and I fly from Corvallis to D.C. to attend the inauguration. And that's one of those things like growing up on the south side of Chicago, my dad and mom, we would, we voted, but we were never political, right? So we would never be invited to something like that.

That was something to behold, and that's another story. But the story I'm telling you is after the inauguration, so the inauguration is Tuesday. We play on Thursday at Cal. And the way the PAC 12 worked is you play at Cal then Stanford. So we're at Cal. I have my assistants handle the practice on Tuesday because I'm not going to be there on Monday and Tuesday. and then I'm flying back Wednesday to meet them in Berkeley to have practice and then we play on Thursday. So our routine was we let the team go out and warm up.

And I'm going to tell you this because I'm getting choked up just talking about it, Ryan. So the team gets warmed up. I'm in the coach's room in the locker room and the kids are all. thinking about the game. I'm with my assistant coaches. We're making our plans for the game. With about five minutes to go, you walk out and you shake hands with the other coach. And they start, you sing the national anthem and start the game.

I come out of the locker room at Cal's gym and you got to come up some stairs and you walk out. I come out to this roaring standing ovation. Cal students and Barack Obama gets elected. and I'm there. Those kids stood for two whole full minutes clapping. And when I tell you, my throat was, it was as thick as it was when my dad passed away. Wow. I mean, it was emotional. And I'm like, oh my God, how am I ever going to live up to this? Have my kids, have these young men be motivated to play. their best. I'm like a basket case. And you know that those dudes went out there and played their

asses off and we ended up winning that game at Cal and we didn't have the team to beat them. They had a bunch of pros on that team. It was the most remarkable thing I'd ever been a part of in basketball. I can't imagine how the emotions going on. Like all of the stuff happening with the country after campaigning so hard, so many saying that it, like, it couldn't be done. And then you're right there a part of it. And then immediately following the away team, not your home team. These aren't their home team. The away crowd.

The away crowd gives that longstanding. Oh, and then your boys go out there and take it to them. Like, wow, what a moment, man. Oh, Ryan, let me tell you, I just, it's, I'm still got chills. I still feel emotional about it. And Cal holds a very dear, has always held a very dear place in my heart since then, just because of the way they treated me, my family. And, you know, Cal's known as sort of a liberal school, right? But this was everybody.

I mean, it was fascinating. And I started talking about this before I started telling you the story. It was both sides of the aisle back then would be like, yo, congratulations. This is really big, even though, you know, I was voting, I was rooting for the other guy. Yeah. That means a lot, too. I remember when those conversations were happening, man. And I, God, I love it.

I love it. I love that. I do think that's possible again. I hope. I love that people, even they're like, I didn't vote for you, man, but we're in this thing. Like, let's go. Like, we're in this together regardless. Like, I, you know, it wasn't that long ago.

It wasn't long ago. I got to believe it's possible. again. And I feel that if there's any area to bring that back, it's athletics. It's sports. I've always felt that sports has the ability to bring people together, to transform, sort of be the ambassador. Yes. And I'm with you. I'm hoping we can get there. It's going to take your generation and the younger folks to do it. I'm getting old here, but it can happen. You know, it can happen. You know, there's something beautiful about a locker room. So coach, I went to a primarily white high school, a few black guys, I'm teammates. I go to college and, you know, there's more black dudes than white guys on my team.

And I played quarterback. And so I feel like my eyes were opened, but it was amazing. Like, I realized, yes, we come from different backgrounds. I learned so much. I tried to approach everybody with curiosity to understand their backgrounds. And in the fact, though, I realized like we we became so close we were boys it didn't matter yeah black guys white guys like we all were we had a similar goal right the same goal and we were in it together we laughed together we cried together we did hard stuff together like we did all that and we were so tight and when you talk about coming together I think that's part of that reason like my lockers you know right there with these guys were all from different places but

we all became so close, man, and so much. So it's such good friends. I still talk to a number of them to this day. And I know that's possible. Like, sports is beautiful for that. The locker room is amazing, an amazing place to bring people together. It sure is. And Ryan, you hit it on the head when you said the common thing in the locker room is what,

what can we do together to beat the opponent? Yeah. And if you have the right leadership in the locker room, And I'm not just talking about the coaches. Coaches are important. But if you have the right people who are sort of leading that group, then, you know, I'm like you. I've got friends from basketball from when I was in high school, college professional that I

am still friends with. And as close. And I don't have to talk to them every day. And I talk to them a couple times a year. and it feels like we've never left that lock. Isn't that cool? You see, sometimes I've gone years, years. I'll see one of them in an immediate inside joke that's probably not, you know, PC,

and we're hugging and laughing, and it's like right there. We're right back to that moment. I think that's such a beautiful thing, man. And it's those tough times, right? It's really the tough times that bring you together. You're all against the coaches or you're all against the crosstown rival or you're all against your conference rival. It's just, it's the tough things that bring you together.

And, uh, man, it's, it, it, it is why we do the ways to win podcast, right? Because all of those lessons that you and I got to learn from sports, not everybody gets those. And to be able to share those kinds of life lessons with people who are doing sort of of the similar things in corporate America, in politics, and entertainment but didn't have the benefit of having a coach or a teammate or a locker room. That's why we're doing the Ways to Win podcast. Well, speaking of Ways to Win, so I was listening to it leading up to this and re-listen to

your first episode this morning. And I first thought, wait a second, this can't be this guy's first episode, this can't because I remember the first like 100 plus episodes were just so bad. I mean, so rough for me when it comes to interviewing. It's hard to listen to. You do it because you want to learn. But you're there like comfortable asking these like deep questions that are really interesting. I'm curious to go back.

And I hit on your first. So your first guy happens to be president Barack Obama. Okay. So I'm curious to go back in time a little bit. And then I want to get to that interview because there's a few questions you asked them that I was like, hmm, that was really good. When your sister marries this skinny dude named Barack Obama. Yep. Could you ever have imagined?

You know what? He's going to be the president of the United States one day. No, no way, Ryan. No way, no way. And he was, you know, he said he wanted to go in politics. And there's the story in our family. Did they meet at Harvard? Is that where they met? No, no. They met at the law firm that my sister had worked at. And he was a summer intern, Sidley and Austin. So she worked at Sidley and Austin. So she was already graduated. Right. And he was an intern. Okay. So they met there. But jump ahead. So he makes it through the gauntlet and he's getting married to her. And so, you know, we're having the first Thanksgiving at my mom's house. And my mom's got this small little place, as I mentioned to you before. And so I'm being the big brother. And I'm like, so, hey, man, what are your plans? What are you going to do with for yourself? And he said, well, you know, I really like being a lawyer, but I much rather teach the law and do my community organizing and may, maybe run for office. And I was like, oh, what are you thinking about? Alderman or mayor or something? He was like, oh, yeah, I would like to do that. But I'm thinking more run for Senate or governor and then run for the presidency. And me, Mr. No, at all, wait, wait, listen, he said this. He said this. And here's,

here's Craig Robinson, the dummy. Here's what I said. I was like, yo, bro, look, listen, don't, you don't want to say that too loud because my Aunt Gracie and them will think you are crazy if you tell him you're going to run for a president. That is what I said to him. I'm shocked he said that, though, like day one. He's been thinking about that probably since he was 10 years old. That's amazing, man. It was amazing, Ryan. And wow. I tell people that story and they're like, he didn't say that. I'm like, that's not the point of the story. The point of it is he said it and I went the other way. I didn't like boost him up and say, okay, well, we'll do whatever we can. I was like, bruh, you lost your mind.

Let me just keep you from looking like an idiot to the rest of the family. You know, that was my, that was my advice. And lo and behold, this dude did it. Yeah, man. And he did it earlier than everybody thought, too. That's another story. Shoot. Well, one of the questions you asked him, and I was curious about how you even came up with this question,

this is more of an interviewer asking an interviewer or a question because I can't help but ask. So you're on your podcast. Yep. And ways to win. Again, I don't know how you got so good at it so fast. And I'm not just trying to fluff you like I really mean that. I appreciate that. Super impressive.

But you said to him, so when you're in the White House, are you more of the Patrick Mahomes or are you Andy Reed? I thought, I've never heard a question pose that way. That's really interesting. So you're talking to the guy who's, you know, the most powerful portion in the world. You're the president of the United States. You're in the White House. are you the quarterback who's like a player leading the team or are you the head coach? Yeah.

And I'm just first before we get to his answer, I'm curious about like, where did you even think up of that question? What made you ask him that question? So it had to have come out of the fact that, you know, we were kind of with along with the producers, because you know how this is like a team effort, right? Sure. I mean, I can't do any of this by myself. And we were just trying to think of some good questions that we did.

knew he would enjoy. And that was, that came at, that sort of came off the, off the top. But the real question was, do you view yourself as a coach or a player? Yeah. When you're in such a big job like that. Because we all have, we're either, and, and none of us get to be right to go to be the coach. There's some people who can do that. Like, former pro sports people can get interviews for head coaching job and then become a coach. But most of us have to work our up the ladder and work our way up the sales chain. They'd be VP of marketing or VP of sales. But I know him and I know he loves sports. So I knew he would know who those guys were. It was either that or pick somebody from the bears. And so, and it helps that I know him.

Like, you know, most people would probably be afraid to ask him a question that's a little bit goofy like that. Oh, it's great. You're very kind to say that I'm good at this already. And I don't feel like I am. But my wife listens to these and my wife is my toughest critic, right? She's like, sounds like you're reading that. So don't sound like your readings. You should, it's just sound conversational.

And I'm like, I'm just talking to people. It's like, ah, that one sounded like you read that. And so she's harsh. And she said, you know, she's like, she said, people think you're good at this. And I'm like, I don't know why people think I'm good at this. And you know what she said? She said, you know why you're good at this? Because you like talking to people.

And if you like talking to people, you can be good at this. And she's right. And my sister used to say this when we were younger, like our family would go places, right? Let's say we'd go to Red Lobster for dinner, right? And that was our time. That was going out for us going to Red Lobster. And the whole family would be waiting in line for the table. and I'd be off and somehow I would know the people who are behind us, everything about their family.

And I was never afraid to talk to them and they'd ask me questions and I'd ask them questions. And my sister always thought that that was the wackiest thing. Like, how do you know this? Like, you know, I'd be in an air. And it helps being tall and it helps being black and it helps being approachable. People come up to me and they start talking. Next thing you know, I'm talking to them. I think that helps in this business, in the interviewing business.

If you don't, if you, if you, if you're a little bit anxious or a little bit, you have a little trepidation of, you know, people saying, what do you care? You know, like being negative, rejection. It's hard. I think listeners can sense a genuine curiosity in a person. So if you're like you approach others with genuine curiosity, you can sense, you can feel that versus someone who's reading a script or just going through the motions because it's their job. Yeah. So I think that's part of it too, coaches. It feels to me that that comes through when I listen to your episodes of this kind of like having fun.

Yeah. And a like a fascination with people and their stories. It sounds like this is a skill you've had for a very long time. based on the Red Lobster stories and others that this is just a part of you, of who you are, of to find people fascinating and to want to learn more and to ask them questions out of your own intellectual curiosity. And that's how I feel. You hit it right on the head.

I do feel that way. I feel interested. It's interesting to hear other people's stories to me. Yeah. It really is. And that's why I can listen to these podcasts all the time. because that's what they do. That's what you do.

And I didn't know that until I started doing one. Yeah. Have you ever thought about getting into politics? Or was that ever part of the, like, did you ever think about it? No, never. Never? I'm telling you, I grew up on the south side of Chicago and we were just trying to get through, man. And I, shoot, I never thought I'd be in the finance industry, let alone coaching.

I thought I was destined to be a teacher, a policeman, or a fireman. That was sort of the way that you went. People coming out of my neighborhood. And there were people who had office jobs. I just didn't have any role models on that yet. My mom was a homemaker. My dad worked. And my dad took us to work.

And I always thought, okay, I could probably do what he does. But I was always thinking, all right, work for the city, get a pension. And then whatever I wanted to do fun, I'd do on the side. I never really understood that you could have a vocation that was fun until I got to be a basketball player for a living. Wow. And my dad used to say, he said, if you find something you love doing, do it because then it won't feel like you work in a day in your life. Yeah. Yeah.

That's so cool that you found that. So many people, I would imagine, are pressuring your family to get your sister to run for president. Yeah. What's the deal with that? She just doesn't want to do it or what? If you can put a prop bet on the fact that she's not going to do it, put it on that. It's not happening. She just doesn't want to go through the mess of it or what?

It's, it's, it's, it is, you know, I always say it's like, it's like the, the scene in Gladiator. Have you seen the movie Gladiator? Oh, yeah, a lot. That's a great one, right? Oh, yeah. leadership movie. Yeah. When Marcus Aurelius asks Maximus to be Caesar, and he says, no, I just want to be a farmer.

And Marcus says, that's why you've got to be Caesar, because you don't want to be Caesar. Anybody who's been through this and wants to do it again shouldn't get to do it. And that's how I think my sister thinks. And it's just, it's, it's a lot of fighting now. It's a different thing. Yeah. But she's, we just weren't raised to be politicians, right? I think she's too genuine.

We used to always say she's got a big mouth. She's going to say something and it's going to be the truth, right? It's going to be the truth. And in that job, sometimes you can't be completely truth. That's what politicians cross to bear, right? And I just, it's funny. That was one of the things that never crossed my mind. And we got thrust into it.

As a matter of fact, I always remind my sister about the story when she was like, okay, you know, that's it. No more politics. And this was before Barack got to be president. And I told her, I was like, look, you can't penalize this dude because he's good at what he does. Right? Like, you knew he was a politician when you married him. And she wanted, and it wasn't like she wasn't supportive of him, but she wanted her daughters to grow up the way we did with our dad around all the time and playing in the backyard and throwing the ball to us. And, you know, my sister and I, my sister was my best competition until I was about 12 years old.

And so she wanted her girls to have that. And I was like, that would be like you marrying somebody like me who was good at basketball. And then you realize being in the NBA, you're traveling all the time. Be like, no, that's the end of that. That's not fair. Yeah. That's not fair at all. So then, then so now I owe her because she put up with, you know, eight years in the White House.

Amazing. One more. Coach, think of your podcast. ways to win with Coach Cow, which he's been on the show and I'm a Coach Cow fan. What has been your favorite part about doing your podcast ways to win? Easy one. Just what we talked about, meeting all these new people and just talking to them about things about life, about their journey and life and the lessons they've learned through sports

and even now, not through sports, right? It's been really interesting. That's been the best part about this, Ryan, is just being able to talk to. You know, we just had Joe Madden on. Yep. And I'm from Chicago, so I'm a huge Cubs fan. I feel like he's like the hero of Chicago. And by the end of the show, I wanted him to be a basketball coach,

and I would come out of retirement and play for him. That's how I felt. I love the title was How Not to Suck. That's the title of that episode with Joe Madden. But what a character, man. Yeah, man. That's, that's, you know, just pearls of wisdom left and right. And, you know, he's another one.

He, I asked him similar question. You asked me. I was like, so what do you look for in your players when you're in baseball? Because it's a little different from basketball. What are you looking for? He's like, same thing you look for. I'm looking for my bulls. He calls his best players his bulls to be truth tellers.

Yeah. How powerful is that? Yeah. I'm looking for my best guy to be a truth teller. I was like, yeah, boy. Yeah. Sign me up. Like you said, one of the coolest parts about getting to do this for a living is learning

these amazing stories and the compounded wisdom from a guy like Joe Madden and others that you get a chance to talk to and build long lasting relationships, both with guests as well as listeners as the show grows. And I think, I could have never imagined that 10 years ago when I started this thing that that would be. The coolest part is building relationships with people you really admire as well as strangers who then give you their most valuable resource, which is their time to listen to the things you have to say as well as your guest. It's the coolest thing, man. So Coach Rob, I'm just so grateful for you, man. I really appreciate this. It's been fun interacting with your team as well. You've obviously done a great job of building an awesome team.

And I just want to say I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. Oh, I would be honored to. And we partnered with the folks at Higher Ground and they're just a fantastic group. And I do prepare. So I've listened to your podcast in preparation for this. And for someone who's got 500 and, what are you at? 580 something now? 570 something. That's that is an accomplishment because 10 years ago, nobody was doing these podcasts. And you're young. A little lucky was timing, man. Little lucky was timing. You're young. I mean, you got 500. When I was like, 578 or whatever it was, I was like, come on. This guy is like 30 years old.

How do you do that? It's cool. As you said, man, it's like the coolest job in the world. And so part of the reward and part of the motivation is just the just want to keep doing it. You know, like don't you want to have a job where the reward is the work. The reward is that you get to keep doing it. You get to do it. That's, I know that's how you feel.

That's a show right in and of itself. Yeah. Talking about that. Because a lot of people don't know how to find that where the work is the reward. They're looking at the dollars or the whatever, whatever the light at the end of the tunnel is. And if you can enjoy getting to that light, you'd never work a day in your life. Well, I mean, I do think it also gives you the best chance to become really good at it. is if you view the actual, the prep, the actual conversation, all of the stuff that goes along

with putting it together, if you view that as the reward, then the outcomes or the opportunities that come your way are just like the icing on top, man. And it's neat when it works out that way. And yeah, I don't know. Chase your curiosity and obsessions with great rigor. You never know. Like you never know what could happen. So anyway, man, I love this.

We're definitely going to keep talking. I really appreciate it. Where would you send my viewers and listeners to learn more about you online? At Ways to Winpod.com and then at Craig Mal, M-A-L-Rob is my Twitter and Instagram. Gotcha. Awesome. Well, I appreciate you, man. Yeah, I appreciate you, man.

We'll definitely be talking. Thank you so much. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. if you are, send me a note, Ryan at learning leader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Craig Robinson.

A few takeaways from my notes. What made him not immediately go into coaching? He meets up with his coach, Pete Carill, and he told him, hey, man, you got to get a real job. And I just found that story to be amazing, that the influence that the people who we look up to have on us. Now, was that the right advice? I mean, maybe we'll never know. However, Craig goes on to become a college basketball coach. He's a head coach.

It seems to have worked out pretty well for him. And then that President Obama story was wild. Him telling Craig at their first family Thanksgiving dinner that he had aspirations and a plan to become the president of our country, quite ambitious. Obviously seemed crazy at the time, but he made it happen. Incredible. Love those stories. And then what Craig learned from Coach Carrill about recruiting.

There is definitely a sales element to it. Now, there's a sales element to everything in the world, but certainly to recruiting. And one of the most important skills to develop is to become a great listener. Ask questions. Listen. Ask more questions. Listen. Curiosity is the ultimate form of respect.

Coach Carrill won over Craig's dad. because he was curious. I think that's a great lesson for all of us. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two. Hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leadership with Craig Robinson. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that. You also go to Apple Podcast and Spotify and you subscribe to the show. You're rated, hopefully five stars and you write a thoughtful review.

Doing all of that continues to help me do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.