The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 585: AJ Jacobs - Creating a Flexible Mind Mind, The Value of Slow-Thinking, Embracing Virtue, Showing Gratitude, and The Year of Living Constitutionally

Episode Date: June 2, 2024

Read our USA TODAY Best-Selling Book, The Score That Matters https://amzn.to/4bNbVcO Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Notes: John Quincy Adams once said, "Gratitude… when it takes possession of the bosom, fills the soul to overflowing and scarce leaves room for any other sentiment or thought." Ask yourself the question, "What good shall I do today?" When you're upset that your social media post didn't get as many likes as you thought it would stop and think, 'What good shall I do today?" It can reframe how you approach others and be more servant-based (which is a mark of a great leader) The fox mindset versus the hedgehog mindset. A hedgehog has a single lens. It's more rigid thinking. A fox sees the world through many different lenses. It's more flexible and adaptive. That is a theme of this conversation. Be open, be less judgemental, and be more curious about the way others view the world. "The older I get, the less certain I get of my opinions." "It's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than think your way into a new way of acting." AJ shared that when he was dedicated to the thank you project even on a bad day when he was focused on saying thank you, his mind eventually caught up to his body. Change Your Mind – the founding fathers did this a lot. Daniel Kahneman said, "No one enjoys being wrong, but I do enjoy having been wrong because it means I am now less wrong than I was before." Be Humble In Your Opinions – Ben Franklin told a short parable. He said, there was a "French lady, who, in a dispute with her sister said, I don't know how it happens, sister, but I meet nobody but myself that is always in the right. The point is that we are all that French lady. We all believe we have a monopoly on the truth. (Remind yourself that you're wrong sometimes) Flexibility of mind: Many of the Founding Fathers were open to the idea that they might be wrong, and more willing to change their minds than leaders are today. At the Constitutional Convention, Benjamin Franklin summed up this open-mindedness: "The older I grow the more apt I am to doubt my own judgment." Think Slow – There are parts of modern life that would benefit from an enforced speed limit. We need fewer hot takes and more cold takes. We need more slow thinking. Writing in depth letters by hand forced ideas to be more nuanced. Thumb-texting acronyms have the opposite effect. Slow down consumption. Forced self to read the news just once a day. The value of slow thinking: For the year, AJ wrote a letter with a quill instead of using social media or texts. It was a revelation. It led to a less impulsive, slower style of thinking – a waiting period for his thoughts. Embrace Virtue – In the founding era, virtue was a cherished ideal (now it's often used in the phrase virtue signaling which is not a compliment). "A virtuous person puts the interests of others before their one. They focus on those two key words in the Constitution's Preamble, "General Welfare." We Control the Sun – The sun carved on the back of George Washington's wooden chair at the Constitutional Convention. The sun was cut in half by the horizon. Was it rising or setting? At the end of the convention, Ben Franklin said he was convinced it was rising. America had a bright future (the world is built by optimists) Whether the sun sets or rises on democracy, that's up to us, we the people. In The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin, Benjamin Franklin tells a story about his father criticizing his writing."About this time I met with an odd volume of the Spectator," Franklin wrote, "I thought the writing excellent, and wished, if possible, to imitate it." AJ's goal was to try to understand the Constitution by adopting the mindset and lifestyle of the Founders for a full year. He committed to living as the original originalist as a new way of searching for answers to one of the most pressing questions of our time: How should we interpret America's foundational document today?

If we adopt the flexible thinking of our founders and are a little more open-minded, we can make these reforms to make democracy better. What does it mean to live by the Constitution? It's a great question. I try to live like the founding fathers. Democracy is fragile and could go away, so we can't take it for granted. We are coming apart. We need a glue.

We need to do something to remember that we owe our state. society as well as our society owes us. Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show, presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Brian Hawke. Thank you so much for being here. Text Hawk to 668-66 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email for me each Monday morning to help you start

your regal. Right, you'll also receive details about how our book, The Score That Matters, will help you become a more effective leader. Text Hawk to 66866. Now, on to tonight's featured leader. A.J. Jacobs is an author, journalist, lecturer, and human guinea pig. He has written four New York Times bestsellers that combine memoir, science, humor, and a dash of self-help. Help among his books are the Year of Living Biblically, thanks a thousand, and most recently the Year of Living Constitutionally.

He is a contributor to MPR, New York Times, Esquire, and many others. He has given several TED Talks that have amassed over 10 million views. During this conversation, we discuss the importance and power of changing your mind. Then why we don't need to have an opinion about everything. Then AJ shares what happened at the Constitutional Convention, wild stories there, and then why Benjamin Franklin is his favorite founding father, how to become a more grateful leader and so much more. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with AJ Jacobs.

AJ, man, it is awesome to have you here on The Learning Leaders Show. Welcome. I am delighted to be here, and I'm going to try to be interesting enough that everyone makes it to the end of the podcast club. That's my goal, my quest. I love your prep. I know you've read some of the books I've written, as well as you're dressed in character.

What are you wearing? Can you describe it for me? I've never asked the guess what they're wearing before, but I can't help now I see this beautiful hat. What do you wear? I am fully clothed. I'm decent, but I also am wearing a tricorn hat,

not from the 1800s, but it is made in the same way. And it is because one of the things we're going to talk about, I believe, is my most recent book, The Year of Living Constitutionally, where I try to live like the founding fathers. Okay, we are going to talk about that. I want to talk about one of them as a way to launch us into this project.

One of the ones that I think is your favorite, as well as my favorite, and that is Benjamin Franklin. Okay. And you said that he embodied two of the greatest American characteristics. That's curiosity and experimental mindset. Curiosity is one of my four core values. It means a lot to me.

I mean, I have a podcast, as you can imagine. If you're not curious, it probably won't be very good. Can you share a fun story or two or an example of Ben Franklin embodying those characteristics of being curious and having an experimental mindset? Oh, yeah. I do love Ben Franklin. And he, by the way, would have a podcast, no doubt. He would be very interested. And well, let me give you a couple of quick examples. One, this was towards the end of his life. I think he was 80 years old and he was coming back from Europe for the last time. And you would think you would be playing shuffleboard or whatever they did on cruises back then.

But no, he was busy doing scientific experiments on the trip. He was lowering bottles down into the depths of the ocean to see the water temperature. He was figuring out how wind effects, playing cards, and it was just remarkable. Filling a book filled with ideas and questions. So he was one of the most curious people ever. Another related to curiosity, and I think you and I agree on this, is the importance of being curious enough to change your mind. You always want to be looking at what am I right about and what maybe do I need to evolve. And he was the most flexibly minded historical figure I've ever run across.

He said during the Constitutional Convention, he said things. like, the older I get, the less certain I am of my opinions. I mean, imagine today if politicians said that. Or he also told this lovely little parable. He said, there was this French lady, and she said to her sister, isn't it strange that I am the only person I have ever met who is correct on every single issue. And his point was, we are all that French lady. We all think we're correct on every issue. So he was very aware of his own cognitive biases to use a phrase from more modern psychology. And I love that. So yeah, he is an intellectual hero. And there are many other examples, but I'll leave it there for now. I think the willingness, ability and skill, and I believe it's a skill, to change your mind

should be celebrated and it is it is not you celebrate it and i think you do it in a great way by sharing these examples of amazing leaders who do it and if you look in history of whether it's lincoln or franklin or a lot of our greatest leaders are celebrated for updating their thinking why a j is this something that seems like you're called a flip-flopper if you're a politician or you say oh he doesn't have a backbone if the CEO of a company changes his or her mind. Why is this something that not only is it not celebrated, it's looked upon by a lot of people as a negative

if you update your thinking or change your mind? It is so insane. And I'm not 100% sure why. Like you say, people think it shows backbone. But the real backbone is having the courage to say I was wrong and change your mind and evolve, like you said,

not flip-flop. One of my favorite, back to the founding father, for one second. James Madison, who is considered the father of the Constitution. His very last words on planet Earth, he was in his deathbed, and his niece was there, and she said, he made a face, and she said, what's the matter, uncle? And he said, oh, nothing, I just changed my mind.

And then he died. So we don't know what he changed his mind. It could be the bicameral legislature. It could be the wallpaper in his room. Who knows? but the fact was right up until his last moments on earth, he was thinking, what can I change my mind about? And I agree, leaders, the good leaders are the ones who are flexible,

who pivot, who evolve, you evolve or you die. And this idea that you have to stick with your beliefs no matter what. I mean, stick with your principles. Stick with your principles of doing good for the world or whatever your principles are. But change your beliefs as they, as new evidence. comes about. If you were advising a CEO, or let's just say senior leaders to make it more broad, all leaders in an organization at times are going to be wrong. They're going to make mistakes. We're human beings, right? This is a part of living. What advice would you give them of how to

approach their company, the marketplace, their stockholders when they want to explain that they've updated their thinking, that they've changed their mind? What would be the best way to go about? this. Well, exactly. You don't have to say change the mind or flip-flop, but evolve, I think, is a better word. And also create a corporate culture where changing your mind is celebrated instead of deride it. And there is, I think it's a Reddit, a subreddit where you get points for changing your mind. I forget. It's called change your mind or something. So let's try to adopt more of that. because that is, in one sense, you're showing vulnerability, which I think is good for leaders. But you're also showing strength because you're saying, you know what?

I am better than this. I don't have to cling to my past beliefs. I am looking at the bigger picture of what is good for the company, and I'm not going to just keep this belief because my little ego says it would be good for me to be right. Well, I think it's actually a pretty good interview question. If you're interviewing somebody for a leadership role, when is the last time you changed your mind about something? When is the last time you were wrong? When is the last time someone in your life told you you were wrong? And you had a good, and you had a good conversation. Because what it also gets at is, do you have people

in your life who are willing to tell you you were wrong? I usually say, other than your spouse, when is the last time someone in your life has told you that you were wrong? And then you had a conversation about it and realized, oh, yeah, they're right. And your thinking was updated. And sometimes it makes people squirm a little bit. It's not meant to. It is truly meant to, for them to be thoughtful about, wait, do I have people in my life who I've surrounded myself with that can tell me I'm wrong? Because if not, that might be a red flag. And then am I open to growth? Am I open to wisdom? I do not think it lacks integrity. I think it shows even more integrity to say, I'm updated my thinking here and now I believe in this.

And I think, again, there are examples in history from how Lincoln thought about slavery, if you want to get really serious to other ones that are not as serious as that in history, that I think the greatest of the grades, that's a skill they've developed. A hundred percent. One of my favorite parts of researching this book on the Constitution was reading about the Constitutional Convention and how flexible and fluid their ideas. were. And now we just think, oh, this is the way the government is supposed to be. It's etched in stone. This is like divinely inspired. But you should read some of these ideas that we're taking quite

seriously. And who knows, maybe the world would have been better. There was a big debate, for instance, when someone brought up the idea that there should be one president in charge of the executive. And a lot of the delegates, one of them said, are you, they didn't say, oh, are you crazy? paraphrase, are you crazy? They actually said, that is the fetus of monarchy. You are going to create another monarchy. We just fought a bloody war to get rid of the monarchy. What are you thinking? Let's have a council of presidents, three presidents, 12 presidents, Ben Franklin brought up the idea of 12 presidents. So, and then eventually they decided, or James Wilson, the delegate in charge of this movement, decided it would be two hundred.

hard to agree and make quick decisions with the technology of the day. So that's why we have one president. But they, but they were very flexible. They were thinking way outside the box. And I, I would love to recapture some of that creativity in government, in leadership, wherever. I'm pretty embarrassed, AJ, to admit that I did not really know anything about how this whole thing was formed. The constitutional, the constitutional, the constitution. The constitution Convention. I was like, wait, there was a convention? What happened in this room? And so could you maybe give me a little history lesson? Because I'm fascinated by this. I mean, I got some of your book, but I want to talk through it as well. How did they even think of the idea? Okay, we're going to have a constitutional convention where we're going to all go in a room and we're going to come out of the room and have a constitution. Like, who are the major players? What did they say? Maybe a few more of the crazy ideas. And then what did they actually end up with? And how is that related to like what we have? today. Right. Well, it is a fascinating history and very relevant to thinking about leadership, too. After we won the Revolutionary War, we had what were called the Articles of Confederation,

which was very loose. Think of the European Union. It was, each of the states were almost like an independent country. And they had their own taxes. There was no way that the federal government could tax. They had their own arms. and it was very confusing and it was just going down a bad. States were not, they were not united. They were not united, exactly. They were just loosely affiliated. And so several of these visionaries like Alexander Hamilton, George Washington,

not Jefferson, he was away, Madison, that they realized unless we get some sort of unity, this is going to break apart and we're going to have 13 countries. So they called this convention. Now, what's interesting is they kind of broke their vows by creating a new constitution. They had been sent by their states just to revise the Articles of Confederation. But they said, let's scrap it and start anew. They were revolutionary thinkers. So they decided we need a stronger central government.

We can keep the states so that there's some sort of balance of power there. And then they had to figure out how to do it. No one had ever created a government from scratch that was not headed by a king. And so it was a long hot summer. It was four months about of them debating and committees and subcommittees. They kept the windows of Independence Hall closed. because they didn't want anyone eavesdropping. Like, try to imagine if there's tweeting then.

Like, we would not have a Constitution because the public outcry would be like, wait, what? You're taking away states' rights, making a national government? No way. So it was, so I am glad for the secrecy, the NDA, in that sense. And in the end, there were tons of compromises. No one was perfectly happy with the way. it came out and there are, it's a brilliant document in some ways, but there are huge flaws in others that have come out over the decades. But they also knew that it was a flawed, they knew

it was a flawed document like we were talking about. So they built in a way to change it, to amend it. Unfortunately, they didn't realize how hard it would be to amend when we have two, they didn't foresee these two rigid parties that we have now. So I think they would have made it much easier to change, have they known about our current system. What was like the parties, or was there even a party system? What was that like at the beginning?

Well, pretty soon after they formed into parties, which drove George Washington crazy. He hated them. Was he one or the other, or what was he considered? Well, the two basic parties were the ones who were much more state rights, and then the much, which were called the Jeffersonian Republicans, and then the federalists, which were much more national, should have more power.

So it's always been that contention from the start. But Madison knew that there would be factions, he called them, but he always imagined. Well, it's a big country. We're going to have like a dozen different factions, and they'll all be changing, and they'll be forming alliances temporarily with one another. So he saw it almost more like what they have in Europe, where they've got a libertarian party, a Green Party. But unfortunately, I think, we are now stuck with these two parties,

even though people in the two party, like people in the Republican Party, have widely divergent views on many, but they have to stick to it because that's all we have. We have two flavors. Yeah. Well, I mean, the majority of people, they're like somewhere in the middle of the extremes of those two. And that's just facts based on polling what we're seeing. And that's what's frustrating, I think, about the current day. So I want to get to you.

And, you know, you do like the year of living biblically, which was amazing and, you know, bestselling book. There's a million stories about that. But now you decide, you know what? I want to do the year of living constitutionally. Can you take me back to the idea, the thought process, and then the beginning stages of what does it mean to live by the constitution? Oh yeah, I would love to.

I mean, I love this project. And it was sort of a sequel to the one you mentioned before, the year of living biblically, where I tried to live by all the rules of the Bible. So the Ten Commandments, the famous ones, but also the lesser known ones in the Old Testament where it says you can't shave the corners of your beard. I didn't know where the corners were, so I just let the whole thing grow, and I looked like Gandalf. The Old Testament says you should stone adulterers, so it's like, all right, I'll try. And I use very small stones like pebbles, so no one went to jail.

But it was an amazing experience, and it was a lot about how literally should we take the Bible. But it was also about what practices from ancient society are relevant now that maybe we should look at again. And I did find gratitude, forgiveness, community. And I always thought I could do the same thing with the year of living constitutionally because it's very similar in many ways. A revered document that has a huge impact on how we live our lives. So I thought, let me try to live it as literally as possible. First to see how should we interpret it, how much should we evolve the meaning,

but also are there ideas from the 18th century that are worth revisiting. So I did it. I lived, I bore a musket. I bought a musket off ye old internet, and I bore it around New York City where I live. I gave up social media and wrote pamphlets with a goose quill and handed them out on the street. I boarded a soldier in my apartment. I quartered a soldier, as is my Third Amendment right? And it was amazing. And I did, I do think there are parts of 18th century that we kind of already talked about. but things like changing your mind, slowing down your thinking, self-sacrifice as a way to happiness, and much more. But it was a bizarre year. My wife was not happy about much of it, but it was fascinating at the same time. And I feel empowered after it. I feel empowered and more optimistic about our democracy. Really? Why is that?

Well, I feel that there are things we can do. do to make it better. And if we adopt the flexible thinking of our founders and are a little more open-minded, we can make these reforms to make it a better democracy. And I saw it personally, because one of the things that I resurrected was the idea of election cakes. Now, back in the 1790s, elections were like a huge festival. It was not quite Coachella. I won't go that far. There was no hallucinogens. But they did have rum punch. They had music. They had farmers markets. And they had election cakes. And the idea was let's celebrate this amazing fact that we can have some influence on who our leaders are, which was unheard of. So I said, let's get back to that

festive mindset. And I got people in all 50 U.S. states to bake cakes in November for the last elections. And I'm going to do it again in this November. And we had hundreds of cakes. People were so creative and entrepreneurial. They had peach cakes in Georgia. They had cherry cakes in Michigan, where they have cherry. And it was awesome. And people were like, this is like a little sliver of happiness. I'm so depressed about the way politics are. Even something, just having something proactive and positive to do like bake a cake and bring it to the polls has made me more optimistic. So it's a start. I'm not saying cake is going to cure it, but let's get, let's start with cake and then we can move on to getting people to first of all get out there and secondly,

make democracy better. So I'm an optimistic person. I like surrounding myself with optimistic people. It's why I'm a huge fan of yours. However, with the current setup of the news being, if it bleeds, it leads with social media, it seems like making people mad is what creates engagement, which then keeps you on the social media platform, which then they could sell ads. And that's, you know, around and round we go, right? And so there's a lot of things kind of going against us when it comes to news and social media.

And so most people are not going to go do what you did and get off of those right with a quill pen. Like, they're not going to do that. What are some things we could do beyond the cakes, which it was cool to see you write about the fact that it was like one of the most inspiring things you ever seen when I read your acknowledgments about that, which I thought was really neat? What are some other things we could do to maybe think about how it used to be, but knowing that we still are in this environment that is thrown in our face constantly a lot of negativity in order. to drive clicks and engagement. Yeah, well, it's a great question. I have lots to say. Let me give you a couple.

First of all, we should remember, you're right. The news has this terrible negative bias, but in the long run, life has gotten much better. Oh, yeah. And we still have a long, long way to go. But you read about, you know, it was the 1700s. It was sexist, racist, dangerous. medicine consisted of things like a tobacco smoke enema, where they would literally blow smoke up your ass to cure your stomach ailments.

Crazy. So let's remember that we have made huge strides in longevity, in quality of life. So that should give us some optimism. Second, you're right. We have a fire hose of negative news coming at us all the time. in the 1790s, you got your news twice a week. Ben Franklin's newspaper came out twice a week. So you read it for an hour, and then you would have time to digest and come up with solutions.

And so I don't think that's realistic for most of us, but I think it is realistic. Let's set aside half an hour a day to read the news and then try to stop. Don't go on the Internet every 10 minutes to see what the latest blip is. You don't need to know every time the polls go half a point in one direction. You can check in on the polls every month, and you will be happier. You will have more time to think. Another one is, yes, I wrote with a quill. I wrote much of the book with a quill, and I found it amazing because, first of all,

you didn't have the Internet pulling you away with distractions, the dings and the pings. you were able to, it changed the way I thought. I thought more deeply and more nuanced. Now, I don't think everyone should get a quill, although I found it very fun. But even just writing by longhand your thoughts at the start of the day, or just making sure to cut yourself off from the Internet, using one of those cold turkey programs, you cannot write really deep, coherent, work when you have messages coming in every 30 seconds. So those are just some small, I don't know, we call them life hacks or small behavioral changes that I think would improve our lives vastly.

Speaking of Ben Franklin and I was messing with Sam Parr about this and this is from the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin where he told a story about his dad actually criticized his writing. And one of the ways he worked to get better at this was he would find, people who he thought were amazing writers and then he would literally hand write word for word their writing to almost put it into his mind that he could write like that and i know this is a bit of an aside but i think all leaders need to become excellent writers and the only way to do that is to do it a lot because that will make you a better communicator leaders have to communicate if they

want to do a really good job and so he would find amazing writing and then literally copy it word for word on paper or whatever they use. And we could do that too. We could read AJ Jacobs books and just copy them word for word on piece of paper or whoever you like to read. And I think like, huh. And also what it does there, AJ, is it slows you down a bit. Right.

You're not online. You get a book and you get a piece of paper and a pen if you want and just write it down. And that is one of the ways that there's a lot of science that will help you become a better communicator, a better writer. And I'm like, huh, I never really thought of that, but that makes sense. Yeah. No, he was great.

I love that one. There's another thing he did where he would read an essay and then wait a day and then try to rewrite the essay from memory. What are the points? So it was really good for his critical thinking and his memory skills. Another part of the autobiography of Ben Franklin that I adopted. was he he really was the first self-help writer and first American at least and he um he show he he he prints his schedule for the day in his autobiography and every day he wakes up and asks

the question what good shall i do today and i love that so i adopted it i wrote it with my quill pen and i put it over my desk what good shall i do today and it's just such a good North Star because say I'll put something on Instagram and it doesn't get enough likes I'll start to get furious what's wrong with people these idiots and then I'll look at my

what good shall I do today and I'll be like wait is this the best use of my time no and it's not just me trying to be a saint it's for better for my mental health when I remind myself don't get angry at these ridiculous small

things just try to focus on making the pursuit of happiness for yourself and for others. Well, so can you walk me through like typical day or typical days living constitutionally? You're talking, you have this, this idea of what good shall I do today and that being a guiding question, but what did it look like from when you woke up to when you went to? Because you're also, you know, family man, you have to live a life, right? But you get so dedicated to your books that, you know, you got to be basically in, you're character a lot of the time in order to live biblically or live constitutionally. What was a typical day like? Well, I would wake up and look at that. What good can I do today? I would put on, I find dressing the

part is a surprisingly power. And there are studies on this. And when you change your clothes, it changes the way you think. So I found this when I dressed in a robe biblically. And for this one, so I tried to wear my tricorn hat and I would put on my breeches. And it, one thing that it did, which was actually sound silly, but was profound, it made me so grateful for some of the modern conveniences we have. Like elastic, I will never take elastic for granted again. Because I had these socks that were made in the 18th century style and they were stockings. There's no elastic. So they would all around, they would create this puddle around my ankles. So every day I had to put on little belt, sock belts. They weren't even garters. Garters are more sophisticated. These are just like

belts at the top of your socks. And the amount of time that I spent putting on sock belts every time I would think, you know what? There are, let's be thankful for antibiotics, but also for elastic. and then I would go out on my adventures, whether it was bearing a musket or, I mean, one of my favorite parts, and this relates to keeping an open mind, was interviewing experts and just being relentlessly curious because there is so much to learn. And I tried to talk to people from all over the political spectrum because I want to get outside my bubble. I think that if we just are in our echo chamber, you're not going to learn anything. So I would talk to the most conservative people and the most liberal people. And I loved it. It was a fascinating year.

What are some of the coolest, most surprising things you learned from those people that you interviewed? Oh, that's a good one. Well, I think one is that the past, really was a foreign country. One of my advisors, I told them I'm going to try to get into the mind of the 18th century American. And he says, good luck with that. He's like, you know, that's like trying to get inside the mind of an oyster.

It's just so different. And so, yes, I never achieved it. But I did start to see the world a little differently. And one of the main ways was this idea of virtue and self-saccharacterial. sacrifice was huge back then. Nowadays, virtue has kind of, people say, oh, you're virtue signaling. You're just, you know, you're trying to show off how virtuous you are. They took it very seriously. And what it meant was putting the community, putting the country, putting the world ahead of yourself, or at least on par with yourself. So when you make a decision, you are thinking

of others. Now, we are rightly very concerned. about our individual rights. I'm a big fan of individual rights. But back then, those rights were balanced with your duty to the community. And that could be anything from being on the bucket brigades where you put out a fire, you know, everyone's a volunteer fireman. Or it could be, everyone had to serve in the, all male adults had to serve in the militia. So I think that is something that's missing. I don't think mandatory military service, don't want to go back to that. But maybe some countries have like a year or even a month where you would do something for your community or your country, AmeriCorps, whatever it is. I think we need

that glue because we are coming apart. We need a glue. We need to do something to remember that we owe our society as well as our society owes us. So I looked at some research in regards to that And so all that, I think Americans for the most part give more money to causes and charity than any other country. And I'm curious, I do see it's coming apart and there's not as much service to community, but we do still have people who are willing to sacrifice and serve our country and fight overseas and do things that I've never done that I'm so, so grateful for. We do seem to be pretty good at giving financially. So what do you think it is as far as like we don't have that same, at least what we used to have when it comes to how we show up for our community, for our country, for the world, even though there are some stats that show we are still good at it in some places.

Yeah, which is great. I love to hear that. But as you say, it's in some places. First of all, I love that we give money. but I also think that binding people together, the best way to do it is not by giving money, but by doing activities together. And there's lots of research on that. So, yeah, if we can together solve a problem together, even if we're conservative and liberal, then that is a massive move forward. I would also say the problem is even though I think that most of us share many goals because of the fracturing of the media and social media, we live in two different realities.

And there's always been, as we talked about, there's always been factions, there's always been parties. But I don't think they saw the other party as inherently evil or stupid, which is, what we have now. And it is a real problem. So approaching the other side, there's a phrase I love from child psychology when you're parenting, don't get furious, get curious. And I try to apply that to everything. So don't get furious at the other side. Get curious. Why do they believe what they do? What evidence can I present that might change their mind? If I can't change their mind, How can we still move forward in a productive way? All of these things are about curiosity.

The other part about that, I would curious to get your thoughts on this, AJ. So I love the name AJ. I have a brother named AJ. I was just talking to him yesterday about this. And one of the things that he said, and I see him has lived this out his whole life, is you don't have to have an opinion about everything, especially things that I don't know what I'm talking about. So I just don't have an opinion because I haven't done enough research

or have an understanding. And so in that point, I just stay quiet. And I'm like, yeah, I think that's great. I think more of it should be that way. We don't have to have an opinion on every single thing going on. Some things, we just kind of keep it moving. And you don't, you just, I don't know. I don't really know what's going on with that.

I'm just going to kind of keep it moving. You know what I'm saying? That is music to my ears. I have been preaching this gospel. You don't have to. And in fact, if you haven't researched it deeply, don't have a strong opinion about it. I think that's so, that is my strong opinion.

We don't need strong opinions about it. And going back to the founding fathers in his autobiography, Ben Franklin says, when you express the opinion, it is much better strategically and just morally to say, well, it seems to me, or from what I can tell these types of things, as opposed to saying,

you know, the tax rate is too high. Well, it seems to me the tax rate is too high, and here are the reasons. So yes, but I totally agree. You don't have to have an opinion. And I've seen it sometimes. I was at some conference, and there was a Nobel Prize winner in physics, and someone asked him about politics, and he said, I don't know. That's not my specialty.

And he's the Nobel Prize winner. So, yeah, let's be like that. And again, as with changing our mind, let's try to elevate not having a strong opinion as a virtue as opposed to a weakness. Yes. Yeah, saying, I don't know. I'm curious to learn. I'll ask questions. I'm definitely curious, but I'm not really certain of it.

So I don't have an opinion. You mentioned gratitude when you're talking about living constitutionally about, oh, man, there was some tough things about it. Even something you take for granted, obviously, like putting on your socks. Nobody thinks about that anymore. But I love this quote from John Quincy Adams that you write about in your book, and where he says, gratitude, when it takes possession of the bosom, fills the soul to overflowing and scarce leaves room for any other sentiment or thought. And you write, I agree with the sixth president.

Can you share more about the importance of just showing up with gratitude like John Quincy Adams did? Oh, yeah. I mean, to me, curiosity that we've talked about and gratitude are too. two of my favorite human drives. And I actually wrote an entire book about gratitude called Thanks a Thousand. And the idea was because I, like most people, have a negative bias. I'm really good at noticing the three or four things that go wrong instead of the hundreds that go right. I think of it as the Larry David side of the brain versus the Mr. Rogers side,

like the negative complaining versus the appreciative. So I did this exercise to try to build up my Mr. Rogers side, which was I took my morning cup of coffee, something super simple, and I decided to thank every single person who had anything to do with that cup of coffee. So I thanked the barista at my coffee shop, but I flew to South America and I thanked the farmers. thank the truck driver who drove the coffee beans, the logo designer, the person who made the street so the truck driver could go. I mean, I took it a little, took it like out of control.

And I got to a thousand people, but I could have gone to 100,000. And like you say, it is such a key to, like John Quincy Adams says, it makes you, it empowers you. I mean, there's lots of studies, it's good for business and leaders to encourage gratitude. And I think it makes you more solution-oriented. So like when I am grateful for water, like the fact that I can turn on a little, turn a little metal spigot and get drinkable water, think of the hundreds of people that it took to make that a reality. It was, you know, the people who, park rangers who work at the reservoir, the people who built the pipes, so many people. And so that not only makes me grateful for it, but it also makes me think, you know what, I want to have this available to everyone,

because there are billions of people in the world now who cannot turn on a spigot. They don't have drinkable water available. So to me, it's the closest thing we have to a miracle drug. I guess Ozempic might be. But it's got some downsides. Gratitude has very few downsides. Well, especially when you are setting your default setting to be seeking it out, you just see it more. And if you say like, hey, I want to say a specific thank you or even give a compliment to somebody. There was a soccer dad the other night at a game. And you know how soccer dads can be where they can yell at the refs and they can be bad. Well, this particular one was the opposite.

He was awesome. I love how he yells for his daughter. like he's so positive, he's never, ever, ever negative. And he just like juices me up. And I asked my daughter, I'm like, you hear Evelyn's dad the way he yells for Eve? And she's like, we love it. I'm like, I do too. It's so great because he's like, they can't get you, they can't get you.

You're too fast, you know? And it's like, this is the way to be. And I think though you seek it out and you tell them and like their, their face lights up. And it just encourages more of that like, I want to seek out positivity. I want to seek out people. I want to be grateful for the dad who's awesome. Not necessarily one who's yelling at the refs all the time, who I rather just keep their mouth shut. And I just think that style living, everyone smiles.

It's enjoyable. It's fun. Let's encourage more of that stuff, not just the negative ones, but the positive ones. Oh, yeah. And for this project on gratitude, I called or wrote some of my business mentors and said. And it's also a little awkward because, you know, stereotypically men are not supposed to be. vulnerable and emotional. So I said, I know this is awkward and I hope I don't make you uncomfortable, but I just want to tell you how much you meant to me and what you taught me and

I gave him examples of things I still do. And I could tell from his responses how moved he was. So yeah, I am a big fan of sort of the awkward but delightful thanking of people in your life. You will love it. I'm talking to everybody now, AJ, and just like you did, this should be a good reminder, maybe even press pause and just if you want to be less awkward, just send the text, but make it really specific, really genuine. It'd be even better if you write a letter, if you ask them to lunch, or you called them and tell people why you appreciate them.

Tell them how their impact on you has impacted your life. I guarantee you will enjoy it. It's a guarantee. It's a lock if you tell people, like be specific. It's just such a, it's pretty easy. It's not a hard thing to do, but it's so impactful. And then again, it gets you into hopefully the habit of that. My friend Brooke Cups has thankful Thursday.

And so every Thursday, he texts three people that he's thankful for. And sometimes he calls them and he also writes them handwritten notes. And every so you notice every Thursday, I am writing three letters. I'm sending three texts. And now all the students do it. that he teaches. And so Thankful Thursday is just the thing. I'm like, yes, that's a great way to show gratitude and to get your default setting in, like, looking for and seeking out people and things to be grateful for as opposed to being upset about. I love thankful Thursday. I also think, and I've talked

about this in many of my books, how behavior shapes your thoughts and your mood. So even if during this project with gratitude, I would wake up in a grumpy mood. food, but I would force myself to do what your friend did and send notes or call people, and my mind would catch up with my behavior, and I would start to feel grateful. And, you know, there's a great saying it's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting. And I love that. And just to give you one example, you know, I was doing it to strangers, which is even more

awkward than doing it to people you haven't talked to in 10 years. But I remember I called the woman who does pest control for the warehouse where the coffee beans are stored. And I tracked her down and I called her and I said, this is a little, I know it sounds strange, but I want to thank you for keeping the insects out of my coffee. And she said, well, that is strange. But thank you. I never get any recognition. And she's like, this made my day. And in turn, that made my mind. And in turn, And that made my day because I'm like, oh, I'm giving joy to someone else and that made me feel good. So even if you're feeling bold, you know, find the designer of a logo you love and just send them a note over Facebook like, oh, you know, love the logo. I'm a stranger, but I'm just a fan.

Whenever I get notes from strangers about my books, I cannot get enough of them. It's just so nice. And the more specific, the better. That's the juice, man. That's the fuel. That helps especially when the days are tough. That feedback is helpful. Like, hey, your work positively impacted my life.

It was part of our dinner table conversation last time. I'm like, oh, this is awesome. Like, I got some juice for the day, you know? Speaking of this, there's some key learnings in the book. And I want to dig into this one here before we run about the Fox mindset trumps the hedgehog mindset. What do you mean by that? Well, there's a famous story by the writer Isaiah Berlin, and it's based on a Greek idea, that there are two types of thinkers in the world.

There are the hedgehogs and the foxes. The hedgehogs see the world through a single lens. Everything is seen, and that could be people who are ultra-religious, see everything through religion. Could be Marxism. You see everything through Marxism. And then there are the foxes who see the world through many different lenses. And they say, well, let's look at this phenomenon

on from this angle, from the religious angle, from the economic angle. Let's look at it from the aesthetic angle. And both ways of looking at the world, I think, have their pros and cons. But overall, I would say we need much more fox-like thinking in our life and much less hedgehog thinking, because it's that flexibility. It's being able to come up with solutions and not being stuck in this one black and white way of looking at the world. And that's, and that's, It's partly what my conclusion about the Constitution was. When we're looking at the Constitution, if you're making a judgment about it, look at the original meaning. That is a very important part of it, but also look at how it affects the world today.

What was the purpose of the law? How will it affect our descendants? What do other countries do? And I find that a much better way to come up with political solutions. I was just going to say it feels like that's a through line of the book, is thinking, more like a fox being agile being willing to update and that's hard because some people take want to take certain historical texts like the bible or the constitution literally whereas maybe it's not necessarily meant to be taken that way with all of it and that's where the nuance comes

in the world it's another guy learned after now 580 plus of these a j nine years of podcasting is i was more of a black and white kind of here's the rule or not like that type of a thinker and as i've spoken with so many wise people there's a few things i've learned from them a lot of things but one of them is the world is so gray and so nuanced and there's almost nothing like paulina pompellano told me this one i record with her and she's really great just that you just become more reasonable you become more open you realize like oh I interviewed somebody from a completely different background to me. And maybe that's why he made some really stupid decisions.

Then it's not like how I grew up with amazing parents and brothers. And, you know, they steer me in a direction to not make the same dumb decisions that other person did. Maybe I should be get curious about him and his upbringing and the fact that he didn't have this as opposed to just judging that person. So I think it feels like you have become, even though you already were, more reasonable and more grayer thinking and less black and white as you've done all of this work over the past year.

Absolutely. And I love that. And I love that you have, like we said, right up front, the importance of changing your mind or evolving is a better way to put it. It would be great if everyone had a podcast for nine years where they could talk to. Not everyone has your talent for interviewing,

but I love the idea that it's helped you see all these different perspectives and made you a more nuanced thinker. That is awesome. It is a piece of advice. I actually give to any leader. You don't necessarily have to have a podcast, but go out into the world and interview people. I've done email interviews. I did email interviews prior to even having a podcast where I just would try to have the best questions possible, the most useful ones for what I was trying to learn and email them. Not everybody would want to do it because it takes a lot of work to respond to that. But I still save a lot of those email interviews I've done. I've interviewed people in person.

My first boss and my first ever sales job, Rex Caswell, helped me set up interviews with the top 10 performers of the stack rankings and the organization so I could learn what they did. So I think just being curious and interviewing people and trying to learn from a wide and even among those 10 people, by the way, AJ, and this was a long time ago, wildly different ways they went about their business. They all ended up in the top of the stack rankings. But why?

And I was like, oh, there's so much to learn if you're willing to be curious and ask people questions. To close, I want to, this gets back to being, I think, positivity. And you write, the fact that we control the sun. Okay, that's the highlight of this. The sun, now I'll get to the story, the sun carved on the back of George Washington's wooden chair at the constitutional convention. Okay. The sun was cut in half by the horizon. And the question you write about was, was it rising or was it setting? And at the end of the convention, Ben Franklin was said he was convinced it was rising. America had a bright future. And I believe the world is built by optimists. We've talked about this a little bit. And you said whether the sun sets or rises on democracy,

that's up to us, we, the people. Can you talk more about controlling the sun and the sun carved on the back of George Washington's wooden chair at the Constitutional Convention? Wow, I love that parable. And I do think that the sun can continue to rise on America and the world, but like you said, it's up to us. It's not up to gravity. We have to get out there and we have to bake election cakes. We have to reform government. We have to get rid of gerrymandering. We have to do all of these and not take it for granted. So that goes back to the gratitude. All of these things are, democracy is fragile and could go away. So we can't take it for granted.

We have to be optimistic and realize that life has gotten much, much better over the years. Let's continue. Let's see that as something that motivates us to keep working to make life better. So yes, I agree with Ben Franklin in the end, with an asterisk, that the sun will continue to rise if we commit to it. the book is called The Year of Living Constitutionally One Man's Humble Quest to Follow the Constitution's original meaning AJ Man, I'm just a massive fan of your work, the way you think, how curious you are.

I really appreciate you coming here and being on today, and I'd love to continue our dialogue as we both progress. Totally. I loved it too. Oh, by the way, hello to the end of the podcast club. Thank you for staying. And I think, yes, I think we are like-minded in so many ways, and it was a joy to talk. So I'd love to. It would be fun.

I would love to take you out to dinner, man. It would be fun just to hear you riff on whatever the new product. Speaking of that, I'm glad I remembered, what's the next year of? Or maybe some of the best ideas of year of is that AJ Jacobs, or maybe even somebody else could think about doing. What have you thought of? Oh, yeah. Well, I have a big stack. and I'm not sure which one to do next.

I actually speak, I have a substack called Experimental Living that I'm starting, and I want people to suggest ideas. One idea that I mentioned earlier before the show to you, people have suggested that I try to become the greatest lover in the world and do all the positions in the Kamasutra. And I did bring it up to my wife, and she said, absolutely not. That just sounds dreadful. And I have to agree with her.

I mean, I leave that to a younger person with more flexibility in their back. Maybe that's for somebody else. So maybe your apprentice could try that one. No, I love it, man. I'm excited to read your substack as well. But thank you again for being such a prolific writer and putting your thoughts out into the world for all of us to judge. I would urge us to be more curious than judgmental. But this has been awesome, man.

And I look forward to the next one. Well, thank you. And thank you for putting yourself out into the world and making it better. Try it, man. Try it. All right. Thanks, ma'am. It is the end of the podcast club.

Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with AJ Jacobs. How cool was it that AJ gave the end of the podcast club a shout out. I am grateful that he is a regular listener of the show. A few takeaways from my notes. It's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than think. then think your way into a new way of acting.

AJ shared that when he was dedicated to the thank you project, regardless of how he felt when he woke up each day, he was focused on saying thank you and being grateful. And he realized that his mind eventually caught up to his body. And I think that's true for all of us. And then the Fox mindset versus the hedgehog mindset. A hedgehog has a single lens. It's more rigid thinking.

A fox sees the world through many different lenses. It's more flexible and adaptive. I think that was a theme from our entire conversation. Be open, be less judgmental and more curious to the way others view the world. Remember the quote, the older I get, the less certain I get of my opinions. And then ask yourself this question, what good shall I do today? when you are upset that your social media post didn't get as many likes as you thought it would. Stop and think, what good shall I do today?

It can really reframe how you approach others and be more servant-based. And I think that's a mark of a great leader. Once again, I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling your friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with A.J. Jacobs, I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that. And you also go to Apple Podcasts and Spotify and you write a review and you subscribe to the show and you rate it, hopefully five stars. And by doing all of that, you are continually giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful.

Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.