The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 591: Ryan Holiday (LIVE! In Austin) - Good Values, Good Character, Good Deeds (Right Thing, Right Now)

Starting point is 00:00:00 I'm just really inspired when you see people do a thing that's like not good for them, but good for the world. Is a world without shameless or awful people possible? Ryan Holliday. One of my favorite office podcaster, a blogger, Otter Day follower of stoicism. Ten years from the obstacles away. Yeah, that's nuts. It's been a decade worth of now getting millions and millions of people into stoicism.

Starting point is 00:00:24 I've been through some shit in the 10 years. So it feels it's surreal. Tim Ferriss said to me, he's like, you treat everyone you meet as if they can put you on the front page of the New York Times. How do we get better at making it a goal to build a tree, to build a forest of more leaders out in the world? I think you measure greatness not just on what the person succeeds, but how good they are at helping. How fatherhood has impacted you from a Stoics perspective. Oh, that's a good question. In the book, you talk about making good trouble.

Starting point is 00:00:53 I think a platform is a responsibility. If you're not making decisions, now you've been captured by the audience. You say it's not a principle unless it costs you money. Hey, it's Ryan. Quick note before we get to this conversation on June 17th, we flew to Austin, Texas to record this conversation with Ryan Holiday. In person, we toured his bookstore, the Painted Ports Bookshop, and we went next door to his daily stoic podcast studio. met his whole team hung out for a few hours and recorded this conversation. We made a vlog from our trip as well as you can see all of the cool behind the scenes video if you go to our YouTube page,

Starting point is 00:01:39 which is YouTube.com slash Ryan Hawk. There's a lot of videos on that YouTube page. It's YouTube.com slash Ryan Hawk. All right, here we go. Welcome to The Learning Leaders Show, presented by Inside Global, I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text Hawk to 666866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders, will receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right.

Starting point is 00:02:16 You'll also receive details about how our new book, The Score That Matters, will help you become a more effective leader. Text Hawk to 666866. Now on to tonight's featured leader. Ryan Holliday is one of the world's bestselling living philosophers. His books like The Obstacle is the Way. Ego is the Enemy, the Daily Stoic, and most recently, Right Thing, Right Now have sold more than 5 million copies. Together, they've spent over 300 weeks on bestseller list. This episode was recorded in his Daily Stoic podcast studio next to his bookstore, the painted porch, which sits on historic Main Street in Bastrop, Texas. During our conversation, we discuss the importance of choosing a North

Starting point is 00:03:06 Star and knowing where you're headed. And then why we should pay the taxes of life, gladly, why we should strive to build a great coaching tree, because leadership is all about creating more leaders. Then Ryan shares his unique philosophy on goal setting and he talks about the right way to earn a great mentor ladies and gentlemen please enjoy my conversation with ryan holiday well hey first of all thank you for having us of course you like it i mean it's cool to talk to you on zoom this is a whole another level so yeah thanks for having us yeah this is uh there's like an arms race with studios i feel like well i mean you've done a pretty good job it's pretty sick in here well it's easier in texas because

Starting point is 00:03:54 everything's cheap and big and have space. But yeah, I thought, well, I thought, well, so the bookstore is two buildings. Yeah. And then this one came for sale during the pandemic. And we were like, we had no idea what we wanted to use it for, but we kind of didn't want someone else to have it because we thought we might want it at some other point.

Starting point is 00:04:17 So we did that. And then this was a barbershop before. And then we decided to do studio and then it's office space. And then, yeah, like, I don't know about you, but I feel like having, you need like a good background just for Zoom calls at this point, right? And so it sort of, it serves multiple purposes. And then I did, I've done two or three audiobooks in here now. Oh, really? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:04:42 Yeah. It's cozy. I could see how you get. Yeah. The these look cool, but they actually do pretty well with sound because they absorb it. Makes sense. So, dude, yesterday was a pretty big day. Oh, what happened?

Starting point is 00:04:54 I believe it was your birthday. Oh, it was her birthday. And it was Father's Day. Yes. So I'm curious to kind of transitioning into like the Stoic life and another year has passed. And I know you often write post when you have another year that goes by. Yes. So I would love to kind of dig into how fatherhood has impacted you now coming off Father's Day and another year has passed your birthday from a Stoics perspective.

Starting point is 00:05:21 Oh, that's a good question. And yeah, I think about, I actually think about it more in a shorter time. So a year is like, so much can happen in a year. And you're like, wow, did a year happen? But I think about it like every time my kids just got haircuts or every time I have to trim their nails. And it's this sort of, you go, wow, didn't I just do this? You know? And it feels like you did, but you didn't.

Starting point is 00:05:45 And it could be a month. It could be a couple weeks or whatever. But you're like, oh, that's, you're, you can. can see the literal growth, right? And, and then it's, it's gone. Like, you're getting rid of it. And so there's something kind of wonderful about your kids growing up and then also terribly sad about it. And I think this is true with time also. Like, I realized, um, I turned 37 and I was doing the math. And, uh, when I was born, this was exactly half of one's lifespan. Right? Like, obviously life expecting is going up but per when I was born this is the halfway point yeah um and I'm just kind of

Starting point is 00:06:25 getting to the age uh that I'm remembering my parents being old in you know what I mean yeah like I'm remembering when they were have 40th birthdays do you remember I remember 40 I'm over 40 not 40th birthdays was a thousand years old to me yes yes yes they're like they're celebrating birthdays as old people and now you're that age yeah crazy I had another experience like this I just, I gave this talk in Colorado the other day. And I'd been in a hotel. I'd been in a couple times. And I got to the hotel and, uh, I remember being a very nice hotel.

Starting point is 00:07:01 And I get there and I'm walking to my room. It's like late at night. And I go, this is a rundown hotel. Like, this is not nice. And then I realized, like, I first stayed in this hotel like eight or nine years ago. Like, that's a lot. That's like an eternity in hotel years, you know? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:07:18 And I go, oh, like, it's old. like because I've been doing this a long time. And you kind of, like when you're coming up in what you do, you still, it still feels new to you and you still feel like you're getting your footing. You know what I mean? And so,

Starting point is 00:07:35 so you feel young in the thing, but you're actually not so young and you've been doing it a while. And so that was like a weird moment where I was like, oh, I'm a rundown hotel. I'm a beat to shit hallway. And that was like what that was that was that was what struck me as I walked down this like oh it's I've been doing this a long time like I've I've been on the road a lot since I first came to this hotel but time flies yeah so it doesn't feel like it feels

Starting point is 00:08:04 like you're just waking up and doing what you have to do yeah that day but the time escapes you but the crazy thing I was just talking to Billy about this uh which is really cool to meet him because I I read a lot of his work and I like to post I have some of his stuff in my notes and so I was like all this is cool but you are production has increased. I would feel like you are a prolific producer of useful material, but the quality seems to also have increased while having kids. James Clear and I talked about this.

Starting point is 00:08:33 And James, like, I work a lot less. And now I'm sure whatever he's going to come out with next will be amazing. Sure. You're still able to be a prolific producer, increased quality while having a pretty impactful family life at the same time. how do you manage that? Yeah, I mean, they're definitely in tension with each other, but I, yeah, it was weird. I was just thinking about this birthday thing.

Starting point is 00:08:54 It's like, okay, in the one hand, I feel like I've been doing this a long time. And the other hand, I feel very lucky because I feel like I'm at like peak capacity. Like there's a, you know, like an athlete, you peak at like 23 or 24. I don't know when you peak as a writer or whatever, but it's probably a little bit later. So I feel good about where I am and what I can do. but what I feel like kids helped me do actually was put sort of boundaries around it which which might seem constraining and it is but it's also directional so if you can do whatever you want whenever you want it and there's no there's no outside restrictions

Starting point is 00:09:42 I feel like that's kind of dissipating because the energy can go in all these different directions the need to be like, hey, like, school starts at this time and ends at this time. So these are your core working hours. Is actually really helpful. Just like, ironically, so is this idea of momentum more that life is short.

Starting point is 00:10:03 If you feel like you have unlimited time that you're going to live forever, if you're aging slower than the average person, I feel like you're naturally going to slow down. I was actually just talking to someone the other day who was talking about asking for extension on their book. And I was like, I think if you ask for the extension, it's just going to take two more months. I was like, it would be one thing to work all the way up to the finish line and then ask for

Starting point is 00:10:26 two more months. But if you ask for two more months now, it's just going to be, you're just going to continue at the pace you're on, right? Or you may even slow down. So I think one of the things that kids has really helped me with is just sort of focusing it and keeping it really tight. And I more or less work like regular person's hours. I don't do like all-nighters.

Starting point is 00:10:47 I do occasionally, more than occasionally, I have to travel. So I've stuff that will take me away. But I don't like, I'm not working until 4 in the morning. And I'm also not getting up at 4 in the morning. Like I'm working pretty normal hours. I just try to consistently do that at a high level. And I feel like that gets you mostly what you want. One of the things from right thing right now, your new book that I enjoyed thinking about is having a North Star.

Starting point is 00:11:18 Yeah. And how important that is and how it seems like it would be obvious. And yet most people don't actually do the work to know what theirs is. Yeah. They're just kind of, they have a thing that they like. Yeah. But then like what success is or what they're trying to get out of that thing is ill-defined. And so there's this philosopher, Renee.

Starting point is 00:11:40 Zierrard, he says, we don't know what we want, so we want what other people want. And this is the theory of memetic desire. But basically, I think what happens is you end up defaulting to how everyone else is doing it, other people's metrics. You just do a pretty standard, well, do I have what they have? Do I have more than what they have? And so you end up not really measuring against the things that matter to you. but the things that are either easiest to measure

Starting point is 00:12:12 or the things that everyone else is measuring themselves against. And that, I think, can, you know, lead you astray very, very quickly. So you gotta, you gotta know, like, not just like what your North Star is, it's for values, but then also just like in a more professional context, like, what do you, how are you actually trying to succeed? Yeah. What is it for you? Well, like, I think professionally it's,

Starting point is 00:12:36 uh, I like writing. Like, my North Star is writing. So even, I think it was Cheryl Strait made this great distinction between writing and publishing, which I think about a lot. Like, this is publishing, but what's inside it was writing. And if my North Star is like, am I getting time to write and am I putting a lot of effort into writing? That's what I'm in this for. That's what attracted me to it. If what I'm actually after is book releases, book parties,

Starting point is 00:13:09 bestseller lists, book advances, those are not totally unrelated, but they are distinct enough that you're going to drift off the course required to do the good stuff inside. And then I think, you know, on a more value level, I think about stoicism being this philosophy that's meant so much to me,

Starting point is 00:13:32 how my larger North Star is making it accessible and practical to people and being a good steward of the success that I've been lucky enough to have as a result of it because what's weird for me about stoicism is that I'm associated with this thing that I have no ownership over. Like it's not mine.

Starting point is 00:13:54 And so I feel like there's an obligation that comes with it in a way that if I had invented it, it would be different. Or if I was just writing novels, it would be distinct. Yeah. So I kind of think about that one. I read this quote about envy.

Starting point is 00:14:09 I wanted to read you because I think it flows with North Star that you probably, I may even got it from you or Billy, but it says envy is inversely correlated with self-examination. The less you know yourself, the more you look to others to get an idea of your worth. But the more you delve into who you are, the less you seek from others. And the disillusion of envy begins. And I feel like you are a lot further down the line than most people when it comes. to not, I'd be curious, I don't want to answer for you, but like because you do the work on yourself

Starting point is 00:14:42 and you have a North Star, you have an understanding of where you're trying to go, you're not as worried about like having to measure yourself against others or using others definitions of success for your own. Well, I definitely would agree with the idea that the more you know yourself, the less you want to be other people, because you also understand that everything that someone is,

Starting point is 00:15:02 has costs associated with it too. So you tend what I think we're envigant is in trouble is that we think that a person is just has these other things and they could be the things that we are. And that's not how it works. There's tradeoffs for everything. And so you see somebody go, oh, I want what they have and you don't think about what it took to be that. And I don't just mean the hours in the gym or whatever. I mean that you have to turn off parts of your brain to have different parts of your brain on. And so you can't, you can't just like pick and choose. You got to totally make the trade.

Starting point is 00:15:37 But I don't know. I mean, I definitely feel jealous and envious of people all the time. I just try to remind myself, like, if that's, I try to go like, you made choices and you can make different choices if that's actually important. The problem is, again, we want to keep all our choices and then get what they have without making those choices. And I think that's where we get ourselves into trouble because we're wanting something that's not possible.

Starting point is 00:16:01 but I I definitely try to remind myself like this was all intentional these are direction this is a direction I went in then if I'm unhappy with that direction I should change it but I'm not what I'm really just trying to do is is be greedy hmm what do you mean well I'm trying to have you're trying to have your cake and eat it too you know you're trying to be like okay I made all you're saying like okay you love playing the cello and you become a classical musician. Okay. You love classical music. You love the music. You love the venues. You love the people that love classical music. You love what a small insular world it is. You love how it's respected, etc. This is the world you chose. Okay. You can't then look at a rock star that's selling

Starting point is 00:16:50 out a stadium of 70,000 people and go, well, I want that too. You made choices over here. What you're saying is I want to be the fancy, respected classical musician that had all the things that were possible in the path that I did. And I would like to be overhear this other thing. And that's not how it works. You know, like there's, there, Emerson has this essay called compensation. And he's saying that everything has compensations to it. So you pick a smaller world like classical music and it's smaller, but the compensation is maybe that there's less competition or something like that. And so you made your trade over here.

Starting point is 00:17:25 and they made trades over here too. The problem is you're trying to make your trades, get your benefits, and then go, but I also want this thing. And I just go like, especially with peers that I know that have books that have, like, I'm writing it about an obscure school of ancient philosophy. Like, there's a ceiling to it. You know, I don't know what that ceiling is, but it's kind of by definition be smaller than the ceilings of say you mentioned. Habits generally is a bigger category than stoicism, right? That's a reality. And so why we're not, we're running totally different races then.

Starting point is 00:18:00 We're playing with totally different material, different instruments, even if we're in the same field. So whether he's selling millions of copies or no copies, it's really of no concern to me because I'm in this, I made these choices over here. Yeah. It almost flows with, and I love, because it really made me think about paying the tax. Yes. You've written about paying the tax of, and it's not. just like taxes the way you think of taxes. Like there's a tax on everything. Yes. We we came here, which mean we had to get on an airplane. Yes. And that was the tax in order to have this

Starting point is 00:18:33 amazing experience. And I gladly like flying in an airplane, the taxes delays, the tax is other people. Yeah. The taxes having to get there early. You know, the tax is feeling sick after. You know, there's all these things that go along with that thing. Right. And Seneca's saying that you got to pay the taxes of life gladly. And I, yeah, it's like, hey, I picked this. You know, I picked this. You know, it's like, hey, I pick this thing, these are the taxes associated with it. Over here, they have a, I'm only seeing the benefits. I'm not really aware of the massive taxes they paid to get there. And if I want those things, I have to be willing to pay those taxes.

Starting point is 00:19:09 But also, it's probably not possible for me to do this thing and this thing. But I think that idea of being willingly and gladly paying the tax of anything you do instead of just the complaining is like, what does the complaining get you? Like, I mean. Yeah, and I try to, like, a lot of what stoicism is to me is sort of just these kind of like ways of thinking about the problem that essentially eliminate the problem. It's like, you know, in math, you're like, you line these up and then these variables cancel each other out, and then you're good. And it doesn't totally solve the problem, but it makes the problem easier. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:19:39 To me, that's a big part of stoicism. So like one of my favorite ones for Marxist, and I try to use this logic all the time. He goes, okay, you bump into someone who's like really shameless or awful. And you go, okay, is a world without. shameless or awful people possible? Obviously, no. Like, it's like, okay, so a certain percentage of people are going to be that person. You've now met one of those people. This shouldn't surprise you. This is just how it goes. And so, like, I think about this, it's like, okay, I wrote a book and then it gets some really nasty review. Was it possible for me to write a book and get zero negative

Starting point is 00:20:17 reviews? Of course not, right? Like, that would be delusional and entitled. So this is, what? of those like there was going to be one out of a hundred there's going to be 10 out of 100 maybe it's going to be 99 out of 100 you don't know the numbers but like the idea is like this is one of a percentage and it go okay so so then i'm just going to accept it because i know this thing is going to exist theoretically and now practically i've met one of those this makes sense this checks out you know and so i try i try to yeah is this um when i'm flying okay most of the time your flights are going to be on time, it's going to go seamlessly, but some of them are going to be a little bit delayed. And then probably one out of 50 is going to be extremely delayed. This is the extremely

Starting point is 00:21:01 delayed one. It just is what it is. It doesn't matter if you think it's because X, Y, or C is happening. It doesn't matter that you just had one of these. It doesn't matter that you really need to get where you're going. It was impossible that you would fly 50 times without one of them being extremely delayed. This is one of those things. And then, And then look, it doesn't magically take the thing away. You still have to sit there. You still have to pay the tax, whatever. But it does take away this thing we add on top of our problems, which is, this is an aberration, this is shitty, this is unexpected, this is unfair.

Starting point is 00:21:38 This is a surprise. And you kind of remove that and then you can calm down a little bit. How hard is it for you to do that in the moment? Oh, it's very hard. It's always hard. but I try I think I'm better at it and I think I'm I'm I'm I'm quicker at getting there than I was before. Yeah. And I think I I do things less that afterwards had I gotten to this place I wouldn't have done.

Starting point is 00:22:07 Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like it's like yelling at this person doesn't make the plane come any faster. So like let's eliminate that as one of the options. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I think I'm, even if I still have the feelings, I think I'm better at identifying that I'm having the feeling

Starting point is 00:22:24 and then at the very least not acting on said feeling. Yeah. Shifting back to some of the, I mean, the cool thing about your book, again, talking to Billy about this earlier, was the fact that it's so obvious that you are having to read constantly, constantly to come up with the stories. But one of the ones in the sporting world,

Starting point is 00:22:43 which is in my background, is on Greg Popovich. And I love the idea of leaders, creating more leaders. And in this case, building a coaching tree. Coach Walsh, another one. Bill Walsh was good at that. The score takes care of itself is another good book. But he was known to call coaches, general managers,

Starting point is 00:23:02 to get his coaches head coaching jobs, right, when they were ready. But Popovich, like, the stats on this were crazy. Not only does he won five titles, but like a third of the league, it's insane. Coaches either played for him or, were on his staff and they've won a bunch of titles in itself. And so if we broaden this from a to a leadership perspective, which is where I really like to focus on,

Starting point is 00:23:25 how do we get better at making it a goal to build a tree, to build a forest as Popovich has, of more leaders out in the world? What's funny, I was talking to R.C. Buford is the, he was the GM of the Spurs for all their championships, and now he's the CEO of the organization. And I was saying, hey, I'm going to do this chapter on Greg Popovich in his coaching tree because I think it's,

Starting point is 00:23:45 fascinating. Because, yeah, there are other coaches, Bill Walsh as a good coaching tree, Belichick has a good coaching tree. But what's interesting, I think, especially about Popovich's, is how diverse it is. And by that, I don't mean men, women, black, white. It's just very different kinds of coaches. Like, there's one version of your coaching tree where you're just making replicas of yourself. And what's interesting about Popovich's is just how wildly different all the coaches are. He just seems to like have a good eye for talent. And then he helps that talent become whatever it's capable of being as opposed to this is the Popovich system and you come in and you come out with the Popovich stamp of approval. But anyways, I was talking to R.C. Buford about this. And he was,

Starting point is 00:24:27 like, yeah, of course, he has a great coaching tree. But he was kind of like, he was like, you're not seeing the full picture. He was like, we have a good coaching tree. And by that he was like, look at, he's like, he started bragging to me about like what their social media employees had gone on to do. And like, He was like, it's an organizational thing, that it's not just, hey, you come in as a coach here, we put you through the Spurs coaching clinic, and then you'll get poached by someone. They were like, no, we see, there was almost like a self-awareness about like San Antonio probably not being the end point on many people's journeys, but that you come here, we teach you a bunch of things, you teach us a bunch of things, and then wherever you want to end up going,

Starting point is 00:25:13 will support you. And I thought that was a really interesting. I mean, the irony is a shocking amount of players have stayed in San Antonio. That's where they chose to retire, which is not, if you made hundreds of millions of dollars playing in the NBA, that's not where you think you would go. But so many players have stuck around San Antonio that the Spurs, their new practice facility, has an alumni locker room. And you're like, oh, okay, so this is really an organizational value here that people come

Starting point is 00:25:43 in and once they come in, they're part of the universe indefinitely. And that's also interesting. Some of the coaches have done multiple players and coaches have done multiple tours. So they've gone, gone somewhere else. It's not worked out or worked out for a while. Then they got fired. And then they spent a year in San Antonio scouting or as an assistant coach. And then they went and got their next job. So I just love the idea of going like, hey, we are this organization and we want to win and we want to do well. But also, we're here for people. And our job is to make the people who come through here better. And that, in the end, helps us and it helps them. And so, yeah, I think at the end of your career, obviously you're going to be proud of however high you got promoted, whatever you

Starting point is 00:26:28 accomplished. But I think you're also going to be thinking, did I have a wider impact than that? And what did the people that I worked for and with? What did they go on to do? And I think we also don't talk enough about organizations with really bad coaching trees. So, like, American Apparel was fascinating because, like, very few of the people went on to do other things. And I thought that was always very interesting. You know, there's a bunch of people that have worked for Warren Buffett that have gone on to be, like, extremely successful, right?

Starting point is 00:27:07 There's a bunch of hedge fund managers who track what... Trump is fascinating to me because not only did he have a show where he was getting his apprentices, but I mean, he's been in the New York real estate business for decades. There's no like, oh, this guy worked for, like, there's no, there's no like actual apprentices. Right. And so, like, ultimately, I think you measure greatness not just on what the person succeeds, but how good they are at helping, how replicable their system or their ethics or their their strategy is, it says something about it.

Starting point is 00:27:42 Because if it only worked for you and it only worked one time, how do we know that it wasn't just luck or that it wasn't like extractive and negative, right? And so I think we shouldn't just judge people based on what they do. We should judge them on their coaching tree. We should also judge them on their lack thereof. Like if you opened the, if you kicked open a door and then shut it behind you, well, what kind of, you know, what kind of trajectory? It feels like you're trying to do this.

Starting point is 00:28:13 I mean, Brent is in New York Times, best-selling author, had him on. One of my favorite conversations of the year. Yeah. He was out there freezing. Did he do it in the mind when he recorded it? Yeah, he was up in the middle. Oh, no, no, he wasn't in the mind. But he was like in one of the guest areas.

Starting point is 00:28:28 You know, Billy's got a book coming out. I know. So it feels like you're being intentional to try to do this yourself. Yeah, I mean, I, like, when I hire people, one of the things I like to ask is like, okay, but what do you really want to do? Because chances are it's not best. Well, you also had your assistant stolen, one of your assistants stolen by Tim Ferriss, right? Two of them, actually.

Starting point is 00:28:43 Two of them. Fristow, who was my first researcher, runs Tim's podcast. Yeah, I just emailed them. Yeah. Frist was the best. Yeah. So yeah, I think about that all the time. How do you find people and think about what is it that you want to do?

Starting point is 00:28:58 And I'm like, look, sometimes a job is just a job, hey, I'm just paying my kids through college, or I'm, you know, this is what I do, because my hobby is this thing. And great, also, but like when you're hiring someone, can you be, can you both be on the same page and be clear about what kind of, what kind of relationship this is going to be? And I just always find when someone says, okay, I'm hired in this position, but what I really want to do is X, or my goal is this or that, then I go, okay, now I know how, I know what I want from you,

Starting point is 00:29:34 but now it's clear what you want from me. and I can make sure that I'm delivering that. So that our relationship isn't just on what's in your direct deposit every two weeks or whatever. It's also what kind of things, when I get invited to something, am I bringing this person or am I bringing this person? When I'm thinking about doing this project, maybe I'm half interested, but I think it'd be really good for this person to be involved with it. So when you can be up front,

Starting point is 00:30:06 and clear, again, this is why that North Star is so important, when you can be clear about where you're trying to go and what you're trying to do, you can help other people align with that also. And look, the way the world works right, you're probably not going to work at this thing until you retire 30 years from now. So being straight about this being kind of a tour of duty or, you know, an apprenticeship or a way station on the way to something. allows everyone to be honest and clear, but also, like, aligned in what they throw your way and don't throw you. And I can't imagine how motivating it is for them,

Starting point is 00:30:47 for the other person knowing, like, my boss wants to help me get there. Along the way, we're going to do good work. And I'm going to do the work that he's paying me to do. But along the way, he knows, like, we're both, like, aligned. And that's just so rare. I feel like that is what isn't people have these ambitions or these ideas, but are afraid to sell somebody else. It's better just to get it out there

Starting point is 00:31:08 and then you can help each other. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's like, my boss is threatened by this. So I have to hide it or have to not tell them or, yeah, it's, it, yeah, I think they're going to do it anyway. So you might as well be aligned by it, right? To me, that's how did Robert Green help you with that? Well, I don't know if I knew I wanted to be a writer just yet,

Starting point is 00:31:28 but I knew I loved books and I wanted to learn about how books worked. it's funny I was um Robert like Robert connected me with his agent but his agent passed on me so that was funny but no I mean Robert Robert knew I wanted to be a writer and at some point me understanding that I wanted to be a writer allowed the relationship to operate right because then I sure what he was paying me was more than fair and he was a great boss but it allowed me to go all this is secondary to what I'm actually trying to get out of this which is to like figure out how this stuff works. And so I always saw it as like, sure, I'm being paid to do this, you know, bucket of duties. But my actual compensation is that once I finish those things, there's a little

Starting point is 00:32:16 time left, I can be like, hey, how does this work? Or, hey, what do you think about this? Or, you know, and that's, that's where I think he gave me such a huge leg up, is that when I came time to write my first book, I already knew how books worked. Like, I wasn't trying to. trying to figure that out from scratch. If somebody wants to work with someone else, what do you think is the best way to reach out cold or what's the, I mean, I'm curious what the guy said to you to earn the jobs that they got.

Starting point is 00:32:47 Cause I think that's the, a lot of people don't know how to do this really well. And so it's really hard. They throw up on people and then it doesn't work out. That's a good way to put it. Yeah, you get these emails and they go, hey, I'll work for you for free. Or people say, I'll do anything.

Starting point is 00:33:02 Right. which seems helpful, except if you're a busy person, I don't have a need of anything. I don't have anything that needs to be done. I have specific things that need to be done. Or I have things that I don't know that I need to be done. You know, so when someone says, like, I'll do anything, what they're saying is, I think when you just send these unsolicited emails

Starting point is 00:33:23 and you go, hey, I want to, like, be your mentee or I'll be your unpaid apprentice or something. What you're saying is, first off, you're saying, like, there's some level of desperation, right? You always want to be chosen as opposed to approached. But they're saying, like, I don't know you or you don't know me, but I want you to choose me out of all the other people and find something for me to do that I may or may not be able to do. But like, you're basically presenting them the problem of you

Starting point is 00:33:59 and saying, figure this out. Whereas if you're able to go, hey, I saw you're working on this thing, here's three ideas I had. Or here's three things that I know how to do that I noticed you're not doing. You know, like I'm a little out of touch these days. So I'm trying to think of what things would be. But like, let's say you want to work, you want to be a comedian. Yep. And you would see some comedian, you go, hey, I'm good at video editing.

Starting point is 00:34:27 I can cut up clips from your, you know, the sets. you do on the road and I'm really good at putting them on TikTok or whatever. So if you're a 40-something year old comedian, you don't know shit about TikTok. And that seems like, okay, the downside of this is minimal and the upside is potentially high. And it's also concrete and it's contained. This is very different than like, hey, can I come live in your house, you know, and do X, Y, or Z? Right. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:34:55 So I think it's finding very contained, very specific things that you have taught yourself to do. that would allow you entry into a person's life or world, that if you are trustworthy, consistent, hardworking, a fast learner, the opportunities for expansion get pretty big, pretty quickly. Specificity is such a big thing with reaching out. Like, be specific in your praise. Because like you're amazing, isn't really that helpful,

Starting point is 00:35:23 but if you say you're really good at this specific thing, that's good in praising. I think it's also good when you're going to ask for something or offer something. up because you don't want to create more homework for the person like, oh, God, I have to think of something like delete, as opposed to saying that I'm specifically like this. Hey, one thing recently that I really admire you for is your willingness and you write a lot about it and write thing right now, but you've been practicing it long before this book came out, is your willingness to speak

Starting point is 00:35:50 up. And in the book, you talk about making good trouble. And there's a story about Arthur Ash, who seemed, I didn't study a lot. I've just seen stuff on TV. He seemed very soft-spoken and quiet. and even he called his dad in the book you write about saying dad i think i might get arrested tomorrow yeah and uh and then he did and so uh but this idea of making good trouble is like it's our duty as leaders as and as good people and as people who do the right thing at the right time to speak up and you are you lose fans over this all the time like i i think you still gain more from it but i i'm curious this your overall thought process on like i'm going to cause some trouble and and I'm going to lose some people,

Starting point is 00:36:30 but I'm still doing it because it's the right thing. Yeah, I think you got to, I think a platform is a responsibility. And if your response, think about what you're, this goes back to the idea of North Star. So if you got in this to have like large numbers of fans, well then you're never going to say or do things that cost you fans.

Starting point is 00:36:53 And then you don't really have the fans. They have you, right? And so that can kind of be the trap that, people get into. So, and we see this, I think, in perhaps a more relatable way in the corporate world is like, someone goes like, I want to be successful and I want to make a difference. But I can only make a difference like once I'm important and powerful. So I got to like go along to get along. And so, you know, the person who works for 30 years to work their way up the ranks is telling themselves all the while when I'm CEO or when I'm director or when I'm

Starting point is 00:37:29 whatever, then I'm going to say something, but you're not because you're actually, you think you're going to get to a place where you become more, where you become less risk-averse, but you actually become more risk-averse because you have more to lose. And so you have to kind of, it's this balance of like, sure, if you speak up on every single thing and you seek out every divisive issue, like, you're never going to, you're just going to alienate people and it's not going to connect. And also, you're not doing like the core thing that you actually do. At the same time, if you're if you're not making decisions because or you're not speaking up about things that you think are important or talking about things that you think are meaningful or interesting to you,

Starting point is 00:38:14 like even just artistically, like, hey, I don't want to write a song like this because it's not as popular as this. Well, now you've been captured by the audience. And that's, I think, creative, a creative form of death, but it's also, like, I think it deprives the world of good stuff, but then also, like, the, the energy we need to, like, fix and solve problems. So I just try to think about, you know, like, okay, there's this thing happening or this thing I feel like it needs to be talked about is if I don't say something, will someone else do it? Okay, maybe I don't need to do it. But if no one else is doing it, then it probably does fall in you.

Starting point is 00:38:55 And so you've got to think about, you know, how do you want to use the platform? How do you want to use the authority you have? I think you see this in politics. Again, we, it's very easy to go like, well, why don't these people in Washington, you know, it's because they're afraid of getting real, they're not getting reelected. And that's really easy to say. But when was the last time you said anything that jeopardized your position or your, you know, but there is this tendency to go, well, the people, this is the people of,

Starting point is 00:39:25 me's level of shit. Yeah. You know, like the, I'm a congressman, this is a senator problem or I'm a senator, this is a president problem. Yeah. And that's how you get to a place where nobody does anything about it. Yeah. Speaking of somebody who was willing to do that and do the right thing, I didn't, I, I was

Starting point is 00:39:45 embarrassed that I knew so little about President Truman. Yeah. And he's a, he's a primary character in this book. This is one of my favorite presidents. I mean, I think I would be curious. just to hear from you to share more about all of the, I mean, I was looking at the books in the bookstore, all the books on Truman McCullough and all that. And I love McCullough's book on the Wright brothers. So I'm like, that's got to be the next one. You got to read the Truman book. Yeah, it's got to be the next one.

Starting point is 00:40:08 But like, share just a little bit more about this guy because I think a lot of us like our age don't know a lot about him and all he stood for and how he was so impactful as a leader. Yeah. I mean, just an incredible example of an ordinary person doing extraordinary things. You know, you have this, it's like the, the American story, this sort of Midwestern child of farmers becomes the president of the United States. I think the last president not to go to college, but had self-educated himself to the degree where he knew more about history than many of the sort of experts that were consulting with him. But he just had this, he had these core values. Many of them happen to be rooted in the sort of classical virtues I'm talking about in the books. But he just had this sense that he was obligated by the Constitution. He was obligated by his sort of human decency to do certain things and not do certain things.

Starting point is 00:41:12 And just because other people were getting away with those things didn't mean they were okay. just because no one was watching didn't mean they were okay. And then just because they were, you know, politically damaging didn't mean he could turn away from them either, right? So you have this guy who had this in a time of immense political corruption, you know, decides to basically be an honest broker, which itself was, the reason we have a presidential pension is because people were horrified to find out. that basically the president of the United States was broke having left office.

Starting point is 00:41:52 And, but that didn't bother Truman, right? Like, it seemed to bother other people more than Truman. Truman at the end turns down the Congressional Medal of Honor. Yeah. Because he's like, it's only for, it was the thing he wanted more than it. It was like the one thing in life that he wished he could have gotten that he didn't get. And when they were going to make an exception and give it to him, he was like, No, my whole life is about not being the exception.

Starting point is 00:42:21 And so it's just an incredible man. And I wanted to, like, the book is about justice, but I wanted to bring justice down from this idea of like, well, what we do for other people and more like how we comport ourselves. And Truman, to me, was just a great example of a person with a strong moral code that sort of guided him in very difficult circumstances. I'm interested. This is what I will do.

Starting point is 00:42:46 This is what I won't do. And nothing can shift me from that. And that kind of confidence and security to me is very inspiring. Values aren't really real until like you're willing to live up to them when that probably cost you something. Yeah. They say it's not a principle unless it costs you money. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:43:02 Like it seems like that those stories like that are, are what's inspiring to say like this is the way to be, right? This is the way. And he did it when everybody else was really corrupt. He could have easily done it. He even like went overboard to not be corrupt when they were what, parsling out the land and giving the money for certain amounts of land that they cut into. And he still didn't take the money, even though he rightly deserved it.

Starting point is 00:43:26 And his mom did, I believe. Right. So like there's so much that others were doing that. He's like, I'm just not going to go there. Yeah, we tend like when we think of presidents or when we think of generals, we go, oh, you know, can you believe they pulled off this incredible victory or they, they did this incredible thing. And it's usually like an outward accomplishment.

Starting point is 00:43:42 And these are very awe-inspiring things. What I love about Truman and the stories that I tried to tell in this book that I think we don't do enough to celebrate is a moment like, yeah, Truman watching everyone else steal millions of dollars, get away with it, and keep paying off his bankruptcy debts all the way through his senator, senatorial career. Or yeah, watching his mother's farm get sold in foreclosure. you know, meanwhile the sort of crime syndicate is running politics in his time and everyone is getting rich as a result. And him just deciding not to do that. Like it doesn't matter that everyone else is doing it. I'm not going to. And those things to me are just like awe-inspiring on a different level when somebody sort of refuses to do a thing that's very much in their self-interest. But like I tell the story of this guy Regulus in the book who's this

Starting point is 00:44:42 Rome in general, who is taken prisoner, and then he's released to go back to Rome to negotiate this prisoner exchange, but he has to promise that if he doesn't succeed, he'll come back. And he fails, and he comes back. To be a prisoner. Yeah, to be sentenced to death, effectively. Yeah. And he's asked, you know, why? This doesn't make any sense.

Starting point is 00:45:08 Like, obviously the promise was done under duress, like you're free. these are bad people why and he basically says like look if i go back i alone will suffer but he says if i if i don't go back every all the romans will suffer because you won't be able to trust our diplomatic you know exchanges and and so you know we think like hey well i'm everyone's getting away that i'll break the rules or this is just this one instance it doesn't matter but there is a There's a cost societally. There's a cost to the public trust.

Starting point is 00:45:44 And I think I'm just really inspired when you see people do a thing that's like not good for them but good for the world. Another example that's not in the book, but I look, I think almost 10 years ago, CVS just decides to stop selling cigarettes.

Starting point is 00:45:59 And this costs them like something like a billion a year in revenue. And their argument was like, look, obviously cigarette. are bad for the world. We're supposed to be a health company. Like, why are we selling cigarettes? But everyone else is selling cigarettes. Like, I'll give you an example. I own this little grocery store up the street. And I'd always heard that. By the way, the crazy thing was cigarettes, that you would think, okay, so people just buy the cigarettes from someone else, right? Like,

Starting point is 00:46:29 what is actually being accomplished? You're nothing. Well, it turns out, actually, cigarette sales, like, nationally go down. Because it's just harder to get cigarettes, so people smoke, less. It's just great. Yeah. So they make a self-it, uh, they make a, uh, they make a, uh, they make a singular decision that actually does have a positive impact. But when you're evaluating the CVS stock, no one's like, well, let's invest more in CVS because they help the world, right?

Starting point is 00:46:55 Right. Right. But, um, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, spend in business for, like 60 or 70 years. And, uh, anyways, uh, anyways. I remember that decision and we had partners in the business at first and so I was like guys what are we like you own a gym I'm right about the stuff I don't want to sell cigarettes this is gross and they're like oh yeah we totally agree let's get rid of them and I come back

Starting point is 00:47:26 you know a little while later and the cigarettes are still there and I go I thought we're getting rid of those cigarettes guys and I go we were going to but it's like the number two seller in the store like every day um And it wasn't until those partners exes of the business that I could. So then I had to make the, my wife and I had to make the decision of like, okay, it's one thing to go like cigarettes are bad. We don't want to sell cigarettes. No one should really be smoking. And another to say, I will pay X number of dollars per month to not be in the cigarette.

Starting point is 00:48:01 So you're not, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. It's a call. I mean, it's a legitimate cost. Yeah. Yeah. And you're, so you're not just saying, hey, I don't like this thing. You're saying, I will pay, I'm effectively lighting this much money on fire to not do it.

Starting point is 00:48:14 And it's easier, it's easier to say than to do. And then you do it. And what's funny is like, then it just goes away and you just don't think about it. But it's there. The cost of it is there. You can imagine Truman just as he's paying to send his daughter to school or thinking about how he's going to fund his retirement, he's like, man. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:37 You know, and any one of these decisions along the way would have made this whole thing go away from me. So it's tough. Nobody would know. And you talk about, you write about keeping your hands clean. You, you discuss the difference between someone like in the world of golf, because this is top of mind too. Because Rory McElroy, who you write about the book. I know he's a fan of yours tragically, not tragically, but it was a rough day. Rough day.

Starting point is 00:48:58 He lost. I also, there's this guy from Ohio State named Neil Shipley. He was a low am. And he called a penalty on himself on like Thursday or Friday when nobody would have. ever known about it. Yes. And I love examples of golfers like Rory and Neil Shipley and the opposite of the other end of that spectrum is a Patrick Reed, which you write about.

Starting point is 00:49:18 And so how do you take that beyond the world of golf of like, I'm going to call a penalty on myself. I'm going to keep my hands clean of whatever it, whatever is that I could get. And nobody would ever know, but I would know. And that's, that's enough. Well, I, an obvious example would be like you're a contractor and you quote, someone, you know, this amount, because the materials cost is X. Now it turns out materials are 22% less than you thought. Do you let the client know or do you pocket an extra 22% on the job?

Starting point is 00:49:52 One argument is it's totally your money and they knew what it's an estimate. They knew what they were getting into. And then the other is, is that, you know, what kind of, is that the kind of person you want to be? And you've got to decide. And I'm, I hope it doesn't come off as, as, as, as, you know, and the book is me saying, I'm always making these decisions and I effortlessly do it. No, but I'm saying that you, these are the kind,

Starting point is 00:50:14 this is what justice is. Justice isn't, you know, legally or not, was this the right thing to do or not? Like, did you fight for this, you know, this civil rights issue? Obviously, this is all important. But at an other level,

Starting point is 00:50:27 it's, yeah, it's the decision to call a penalty on yourself when you're playing a casual round of golf because that's the kind of person that you are. And what that should have the effect of doing is building the muscle where you say, hey, I told you was going to be, you know, $2,000. It's actually coming in at $1,500. So by the way, I'm going to rectify that

Starting point is 00:50:47 on the invoice. Whoa. Cool. You know, and those are the moments that really, I think, uh, make life wonderful when you, when you see people do stuff like that. One of the things to you read about is just being kind and like, let's be more kind. And, uh, I think back to, we were in Ohio and I was having breakfast with you and Sam. I remember, and I remember I struck, I called my wife after that trip after that breakfast and I said, they were just very down to earth and kind. That was the word I actually used.

Starting point is 00:51:16 I remember both you guys were just kind of chill, we were hanging out. You're still pretty well known at the time, but obviously more now. And I just thought that idea of, it sounds basic, sounds fundamental, but fundamentals I think are really important,

Starting point is 00:51:29 like in athletics they are, but just this fundamental idea of choosing to be a kind person to all that you see. And that's a right thing right now type of idea as well. You do a lot of talking, right? Yeah. So sometimes when I'm like, you know, there's usually like, they'll send someone, they come and get you,

Starting point is 00:51:47 they bring you. You have like, you have these little like one off conversations with like, it's very friendly, but you'll never see this person again in your life. Right. And I always, sometimes when I'm sitting there, I'll go like, so what's like the worst speaker you've ever had to deal? I'm always fascinated with that, right?

Starting point is 00:52:04 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like, I take two things from it. One, it's always interesting. Two, I go, I happen can relate to the thing that the person was doing. It makes sense to me. Yeah. But you, it reminds you that, like, what they thought, and then the impact of the decision or the way that they were acting on other people

Starting point is 00:52:26 is often very different. So they were telling me about this one speaker. I just gave a talk maybe two weeks ago, and they were telling me about the speaker, who I know, who I had some feelings about. So it didn't surprise me. But the person was basically like, you know, hey, I'm talking from this time to this time,

Starting point is 00:52:48 I have like a hard out at 9.50 or something. So they're doing the thing. They're doing like a signing at the end. And then at 950, they just caught up and walked away. Like they didn't, they weren't like, hey, I'm wrapping up. Like, hey, you know, they're just like, punched out and walked away, even though there's like a bunch of people waiting.

Starting point is 00:53:09 And so, like, on the one hand, you know, try to be charitable me. This guy had to run to a flight or whatever. But it also struck me as a, as just a person who's living in a world where their decisions don't have consequences for other people. And so, so you kind of, you just kind of think about like, how do you, how do you want to come off to other people? And how do you treat people who you will probably never see? again.

Starting point is 00:53:31 Yeah. And who in many cases, you have a kind of, uh, uh, power differential between. Yep. And you can get away with it, but that doesn't mean that that's how the person that you want to be. Yeah, that measure of like how you treat those who you know will never really, you'll never see again. They won't be able to do anything for you.

Starting point is 00:53:52 Like the AV guys, right? Like I love bonding with the AV guys. They're the best. You know what I mean? Like, I'm super grateful for them and try to make their life. easier with all my stuff, but like that, those guys, the drivers, like everybody in between, like they're just trying to do a good job. Like, let's try to make it pleasant. Let's try to be kind. To try to leave them better than we found them. It's not really that hard. No, it's not that

Starting point is 00:54:13 hard. And it's, again, it's like a muscle because you never know when that person isn't the kind of person that you think they are. Right. So like, you think it's a driver, but it's actually like someone from the event or, right? So like, it's also just like it's a bad strategy. to treat people poorly because you never know, right? I think Tim Ferriss said to me, he's like, you treat everyone you meet as if they can put you on the front page of the New York Times. Because inevitably you will meet that person at some point.

Starting point is 00:54:44 Yeah. And you don't know. You don't know that, oh, you talk to this person and they talk to this person and they talk to this person. That's why this thing is happening for you. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, it's tough though when you're busy and you're tired and you're stressed

Starting point is 00:54:57 and you have done this exact same thing a thousand times, and you know it better and here's some person, you know. And so it being kind is easy, but it's also not easy. It requires the conscious, like there was a story I have in the book about Truman where he calls someone who worked for Roosevelt for like 12 years into the office, and he asked him a bunch of questions. And he goes, hey, I just want to like thank you for everything you're doing. And the guy's leaving and he looks very different.

Starting point is 00:55:27 And someone says, what just happened? And he goes, just the most extraordinary thing of my life is having. The president just said, thank you to me. And so, like, for Truman, that was normal. But what that meant is that for 12 years working for FDR amidst incredible difficulty and stress, the president had never acknowledged this person's contributions. Wow. 10 years from the obstacle is the way.

Starting point is 00:55:54 Yeah, that's nuts. That's crazy. You've kind of created a movement of. Stoicism starting with that book and now all the ones that have followed. I mean, how does that feel, man? It's been a decade worth of now getting millions and millions of people into Stoicism that started 10 years ago from that book. Well, it's very weird. I'm doing a 10-year anniversary edition of it.

Starting point is 00:56:17 And so, like, the book is done. So I was just submitting the last, like, changes to it. But then they were like, so you're going to re-record the audiobook. And I was like, why would I re-record it? I'm just, I would just record the new parts. You can just edit them in. And they were like, if you listen to this and I listened to it. And I'm like, who is this person?

Starting point is 00:56:39 Like, my voice has changed. Just, you just, I mean, 10 years of travel and work and podcasts and children. And like, I just, I sound like a kid and I don't sound like a kid, you know. Is that weird? Like, you listen to your own voice. Yeah. Oh. Oh, it's like I'm 10 years older.

Starting point is 00:56:58 Yeah. And I've been through some shit in 10 years. So it feels it's surreal. It's very surreal. It doesn't, it feels like much longer than 10 years and much shorter than 10 years at the same time. Do you set big goals? I don't set any goals. No goals.

Starting point is 00:57:13 None. So like, so there's no way of thinking like, I set this big, hairy, audacious goal 10 years ago. And look at this. It's no. So I am curious about your goal setting process. If you don't set any, then what is your mindset is do the work today? And then the next day and the next day and the next day. and the next day or how do you think about it?

Starting point is 00:57:29 Yeah, I mean, I was trying to write a book about Stoic philosophy. Yeah. And I did that. Yeah. And then I had an idea for another book. And so I did that. And then I had an idea, like, the idea, I think it would have been, if I had had all this in mind, I think that would have been so delusional as to be, like, worthy of being

Starting point is 00:57:52 institutionalized. I mean, it was crazy, right? Yes. And, and, and, and. that wasn't my conception at all. I was just trying to do the thing in front of me as well as I could do it. And I try to think about it that way. So, yeah, I don't really have goals.

Starting point is 00:58:08 What about moving forward? What's next? Like, what do you want to do next? I mean, I have, like, I have, so this is a four-book series. So maybe you could call that some goals and that I made a commitment to do these things. Yeah. But I don't really see that as a goal. And there's not, to me, like, a goal, the problem with most goals is that most goals are,

Starting point is 00:58:27 attached to things that are outside of your control. So most people's goals are... Results based, yeah. Yeah, but not even results based in that, like, writing a book is results based. Sure, yeah. But, like, being number one on the New York Times Vesteller list is a result that is outside of your control.

Starting point is 00:58:44 Right. Right. Being the highest paid salesperson in your company is outside of your control. Being a great salesperson is in your control, right? And so a lot of times our goals are, are rooted in things that are that are outcome specific and that outcome is largely based on what other people are going to say or think or do. So I don't really have any of those goals. I,

Starting point is 00:59:08 in this, I sold the four books series. So I was like, I'm going to do these four books and I'm going to try to do them in four years. It's going to be five or six. But so you can call that a goal in that I have like things that I'm engaged in doing. But whether I do them or not is is really a matter of individual will and commitment as opposed to something that requires approval or winning or something like that. Yeah. So if I have any goals, they're all in that sense. It's, I'm going to get up and I'm going to write.

Starting point is 00:59:45 Yeah. I said I was going to go running tomorrow and I was going to work on this chapter. And so that's, that's tomorrow. Yeah. And I think, do you think confidence is built through keeping promise? to yourself. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:59:58 Like you said, I'm going to do this thing. I'm going to run. I'm going to write. And then you do it. And I think consistency, which you're one of the most consistent guys out there, that day after day. It's like not that sexy.

Starting point is 01:00:11 Yes. But it's very effective. Well, I tell the story in the book about this poet named Danielle DePriam, who was sort of one of the beats. And she's at this party early in her career. And she gets it to leave. You know, Alan Ginsburg is there.

Starting point is 01:00:25 And Jack Carrow. is there, all these fancy people, and she gets to leave. She says, I got to go pick up my kid from the babysitters or whatever. And Jack Kerouac says, what? You know, you've got to forget about the babysitter if you're going to make it as a writer. And she says, no, like, I gave the babysitter my word. I had to keep my word. And to her, the idea was that if she said, hey, I'm going to be home and pick up my kid at

Starting point is 01:00:50 nine, and she didn't do it. She broke that word because she wanted to party or whatever. that's that that's a transgression but it's it's setting in motion that the transgression the next day of why said I was going to work on this poem but why you know so so keeping your word to others is similar or is part and parcel of keeping your word to yourself and vice versa I do what I say I consistently do X, Y or Z that's consistently what I do And I think that's what matters is the sort of day-to-day keeping of promises versus the Herculian two-month sprint to finish this thing that you procrastinated on over and over and over and over.

Starting point is 01:01:42 Like it's, hey, I'm going to, I've got, you know, a month to cut 20 pounds is different than like the discipline of the day. to day not putting on the 20 pounds yeah no doubt uh before we run yeah can you tell me the story of this table oh so this table is uh joan didian's table the uh the novelists were both from sacramento um and uh they sold at an auction so i needed a table for the podcast studio and uh i couldn't figure out what i like i was looking at all these tables i couldn't figure and then i saw this was at an auction and i bought it and so are the chairs um and i have or I have a similar chair in my office that I write on every day.

Starting point is 01:02:26 I just kind of like like objects with history in them. They get me excited. So I kind of, this, like, it's maybe one of my only advice is that I like collect historically significant things. And I think the goal, I haven't decided when, but my, and I'm saying it, so I have to hold myself accountable to it.

Starting point is 01:02:46 At some point, I'm going to resell the table. So she sold, her estate, she left a bunch of these things to charity. They did it and then it went to, I think, Parkinson's research or something. I've had all these amazing people, like Admiral McRaven has sat at this table and artists and writers and, you know,

Starting point is 01:03:04 leaders of sat at this table. So, like, it was Joan Didion's table, but now all these other people have sat in it. So I'll probably resell it and then donate the money at some point. But for now, it's just like a... Have you seen this thing called significant objects? Oh.

Starting point is 01:03:21 this guy named Rob Walker started it and it was it's just an art project but it sort of goes to this point basically he would like buy like a random piece of junk on eBay and then he would have a writer write a story about that thing and then then they would resell the item and it was worth more because there was a story about it yeah and so things things are worthless and then they become worth something because of the interactions or like like this is a crappy old table that if you bought at a garage sale would be like $100. But because there's Joan Didion's table, it's worth thousands of dollars. And then now that all these other people have sat at, it becomes a significant object in these different ways, right?

Starting point is 01:04:05 And so I've always loved that art project. And then that's how I, it's how I rationalize spending money on things that are rare or unusual or whatever. Well, it's so cool to be here, man. We could have done this on Zoom, but it's so much better to come here and get to experience the bookstore and be in here, right thing right now. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, they get a little bit longer and a little bit better. The books? The books? They definitely are.

Starting point is 01:04:39 Yeah. They definitely are. Yeah. And I think that's, but there's something to be said for that. Like, like, like, because if you're reading all the time, you're just going to have more stuff in your head to use and more stories to tell. Yes. Although, like, there is, I don't know, I go back and forth. Like, when I was rereading obstacle to do this thing, I'm like, it's so short and tight.

Starting point is 01:04:58 Yeah. But is it short and tight because you're leaving things out? That's the, that's the tricky question. So it's, I, I am noticing they're getting longer. I am, I am, I go either way on whether it's a positive or a negative development. Yeah. Is it going to be that different? Like, how much, how different will it?

Starting point is 01:05:20 Oh, for obstacle. It has like a new forward, and then I, I fixed some things. And then there were other things that, like, I've read more about the stories in the book. I'm like, oh, this, like, I want to add this little part. So it's just like little like, yeah, it should be better. And then there was just some stuff that didn't hold up as well as I wanted. And then, yeah, it's like little things here, there. It's all.

Starting point is 01:05:41 Awesome. Well, thank you again for having us, man. Yeah, thanks for having. I really appreciate it, man. This is cool. Of course. Thank you so much, too. It is the end of the podcast club.

Starting point is 01:05:51 Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learning leader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Ryan Holiday. First, I would like to say this was such a cool experience to go to Austin, drive out to Bastrop, Texas, tour the Painted Porch Book Shop, meet a lot of the members of Ryan's team, and then go next door to the Daily Stoic podcast studio and hang out with the squad for a couple of hours

Starting point is 01:06:21 and record this conversation with Ryan. I'm grateful that he invited us down to Austin to take a look at his operation. It was really inspiring. A few takeaways from my notes. It's so important to choose a North Star. A North Star can function as a compass professionally, personally, and morally.

Starting point is 01:06:39 The problem is most people don't do the work to figure out what their North Star is. Most people default to what others do, and then they end up comparing themselves. to others, and it's on us to do the necessary work to choose our North stars, so we don't just end up comparing ourselves to others. And then I love the idea of creating a coaching tree within your organization, and that's what R.C. Buford at the San Antonio Spurs has said to Ryan that we're about developing

Starting point is 01:07:08 people. We want to win, but our ultimate job is to bring in great people and then help develop them, and it's really cool to see them then disperse and go out and become leaders in the world, because ultimately, the most effective leaders are fantastic at creating more leaders. And then the advice Ryan gives to those who want to be mentees. And if you want to be a fantastic mentee, it's about adding surplus value. Don't just say, you know, I'll do whatever or I'll do anything. Ryan said, I don't need anything done.

Starting point is 01:07:38 I have very specific things that need to be done. And so don't present your mentor with a problem by saying, hey, what do you need done? proactively, look for the issues that your mentors have and then try to solve them. That's how you can be a value-added resource. Don't add homework to your mentor's plate. Solve problems for them. Be proactive. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling

Starting point is 01:08:08 a friend or two. Hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leaders Show with Ryan Holiday. I think it will help you become a more effective leader because you, continue to do that and you also go to Apple Podcasts and Spotify and you subscribe to the show and you rate it hopefully five stars and you write a thoughtful review doing all of that help spread the message and gives me the opportunity to do what I love like fly to Austin, Texas and record a cool conversation with one of my mentors one of the people that I look up to Ryan Holiday and I want to do more and more of that so I'm so grateful for you for creating that opportunity for

Starting point is 01:08:45 and I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk you soon. Can't wait. It takes more, it's just logistically. Yeah. I mean,

Starting point is 01:08:59 what's your recording schedule like? Because, I mean, I know it's something like with the solo stuff, you can just probably like hammer it. But like, those I'm way,

Starting point is 01:09:07 I'm way back like I usually have a huge archive of. So that's good. What do we do like two a week, Austin? On, what's a recording schedule? Like two a week? Oh,

Starting point is 01:09:18 probably, We kind of tried a batch from here or there, but... Yeah. What about you? How many do you put out a week? One, and we're looking at trying to do more than that, though, but it's like mixing in like a whole consulting business with this. That's like the whole other side, you know.

Starting point is 01:09:36 Yeah, yeah. Yours is like, it's kind of cool to see how it's evolved with all the media stuff that you got going on. Yeah, it's been, it's been, it's a, it's, it's, uh, I think the tough part is, it's you only have one you only have like one tube that it goes out yeah and we put out a lot of stuff and so it's hard to know like what is the best you know what I mean yeah I think it'll be nice if you could have like separate like you have multiple feeds but you just have the one yeah well you did you've been doing the vlogs on your personal one for the book right we just started that

Starting point is 01:10:14 yeah so are you going to try I think I'm going to try to yeah that's a good example I'm try to start a second for more like because right now I've like my Instagram Daily Stokes Instagram they're a little separate yeah and daily dad stuff daily dad yeah I'm trying to create separate like a lot of YouTubers will have like multiple channels so they can put out different types of things yeah for that reason yeah makes sense wow sweet let's do it I'm ready all right man um good stuff are we going good stuff

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 591: Ryan Holiday (LIVE! In Austin) - Good Values, Good Character, Good Deeds (Right Thing, Right Now)

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