The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 593: Kim "Killer Chick" Campbell - Contingency Planning, Responding to Adversity, Earning Trust & Respect, Flying in the Face of Fear, and How To Run a Debrief

Episode Date: July 28, 2024

Read our book, The Score That Matters https://amzn.to/3XxHi7p Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com  This episode is supported by Insight Global. Insight Global is a staffing company dedicated to empowering people. Please CLICK HERE for premier staffing and talent. Episode #593: Kim Campbell - Contingency Planning, Responding to Adversity, Earning Trust & Respect, Flying in the Face of Fear, and How To Run a Debrief Aviate, Navigate, Communicate - "Aviate, navigate, communicate" is a fundamental principle in aviation that pilots learn early in flight training. It's a priority order that helps pilots stay focused and in control, even when they're under pressure or distracted:  Aviate: Keep the plane flying Navigate: Figure out where you are and where you're going Communicate: Talk to air traffic control (ATC) or someone else as needed On March 20, 2003, Kim wrote letters to her loved ones in case she died in battle. Prepare, practice, and plan for contingencies. My college football coach, the late great, Terry Hoeppner used to always say, have a plan, work the plan, plan for the unexpected. As leaders, it's on us to prepare, practice, and plan for contingencies. You don't have to get ready if you stay ready. I love the way Kim's dad helped support her dream to be a fighter pilot. If you want to do this, you have to put in the work. Run hills, and do pull-ups every time you go to the bathroom. He didn't just tell her you can do whatever you want… He created opportunities for Kim to do the necessary work to achieve what she wanted. Kim's telling of the story of how she was hit and how she responded. An amazing example of responding in the face of fear, dealing with adversity in a calm, poised manner, and making a tough decision. Kim's training and her attitude is what set her apart and saved her life. Response to Rejection: Initially Kim was rejected by the Air Force Academy because of a low SAT score. In response, instead of quitting and moving on, she wrote a letter to them every week stating why they should accept her… Which they eventually did. Dealing with fear: What's most important is what we do in the face of fear. We can't freeze. We must take action. The Debrief: Check your rank and ego at the door. Write all the objectives down. Next to each one, grade it a plus or a minus. Find the root causes of each mistake. What lessons can we learn from our mistakes? What will we change for our next mission based on what we learned? Share lessons learned beyond that room. Johnny Bravo - Be humble, approachable, and credible. That's how you earn trust and respect and inspire others to follow.

I remember just popping out down below the weather and seeing this huge firefight. There's tracers and smoke. And it's just, it's very surreal. And I just feel this huge explosion at the back of the airplane. Flying in the face of fear, amazing pilot. Take me to the moment when you wanted to go to the Air Force Academy, you didn't get in. And then most importantly, what you did next. To see the word no and to really feel like I wasn't good enough,

It was devastating. I needed somebody to say, don't quit. You've got this. Keep trying. Keep going for it. I have always followed an approach of prepare, practice, and plan for contingencies. That's helped me in so many stages of my life. Can you go deeper on what it means to create a wingman culture outside of the military?

Wingman culture is about serving a bigger purpose, something more important than ourselves. We learn early in flight training. Aviate, navigate, communicate. Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show, presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Brian Hawke. Thank you so much for being here. Tech Hawk to 666866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world,

will receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off. Right? You'll also learn more about how our book, The School, that matters will help you become a more effective leader. Text Hawk to 66866. Now on to tonight's feature. They're so good. Kim Casey, Killer Chick Campbell, is a retired Air Force colonel who served for over 24 years. She has flown more than 100 combat missions protecting troops on the ground in both Iraq and Afghanistan. In 2003, Kim was awarded the Distinguished Flying

Cross for heroism after successfully recovering her battle damaged airplane after an intense close air support mission in Baghdad. She's also the author of a great book called Flying in the Face of Fear, a fighter pilot's lessons on leading with courage. During this conversation we discuss how to make better decisions in the face of extreme stress and risk. and how to be better prepared to perform at any moment. You don't have to get ready yet you stay ready.

Then how to deal with imposter syndrome, as well as how to create a, quote, wingman culture at your place of work. Ladies and gentlemen, this one is so good. Please enjoy my conversation with Kim Campbell. Kim, it is awesome to see you again. Welcome back on The Learning Leaders Show. Thank you so much. It's great to see you again as well. I need to publicly acknowledge. So I invited you to our Learning Leader Growth Summit this year in Columbus, Ohio.

And fortunately, you had a speaking engagement in Cincinnati so you could just drive up or get a car ride up. And I didn't want to force you to speak or I wanted you to be able to relax and enjoy yourself and just kind of get a feel for what it's like. But everybody in the room was fan-boying, fan-girling out on you that I had to finally kind of come up to you and say, you got to speak. And then what did you do? You get up at the end of the first day and absolutely just destroyed the room. So I'm so thankful for you for getting up and doing that without even knowing that that you were going to do it. It was awesome. No, you know what, Ryan, though, it's such a great group of people.

You have such an incredible group of people together. I had the day to kind of get to know everybody. And it just felt very comfortable, you know. And I've always said that, you know, to me, it is all about sharing messages, sharing stories and lessons. to help other people on their journey. And I think that's really been my why and the driving factor. So when you asked, maybe one of your teammates might have asked first to make sure it was going to be okay. But how could I not?

You know, what a great group of people, passionate about leadership, passionate about personal growth and development, that it was such an incredible room and very honored and happy to be part of it. Well, it was a perfect way to end the first day. So thank you for that. And then getting to sit with you at dinner was also another treat. So I really appreciate it and enjoy it. So, okay, I want to recap just a couple parts of your story before then we expand and talk about some things that we've never talked about before. And the first part that I want to go to was, I know you're motivated to go to the Air Force Academy and you really wanted to get in.

But you got rejected initially. And I think we all could benefit. We see you now and you're like this amazing pilots who served our country and has protected troops on the ground so many times. And we're like, well, of course, Kim's never had any issues getting in. Like everybody would want her. But that's not true. You're a human just like us. And you have had to fight through some adversity early on your life.

So can you take me to the moment when you wanted to go to the Air Force Academy, you didn't get in. and then most importantly, what you did next. Yeah. You know, it's funny. All of our biographies, our resumes, they look really good, right? But I think almost the most telling thing is what's underneath that all. Like what did it take to get to those titles and those things that you've done? And for me, that rejection letter was, I mean, it was devastating, right?

I opened the mailbox, super excited for, you know, every day checking the mailbox as a high school senior, super excited to see the Air Force stationary. And, you know, granted, it was a small letter. I should have known. But I was so excited that I didn't really notice that. And to see that rejection and feel that rejection and note, you know, I had worked so hard. I had done everything. Like, I don't know what more I could have done. And to see the word no and to really feel like I wasn't good enough, it was devastating. You know, the positive part of this is that I had this an incredible team of friends and teachers and coaches and mentors that surrounded me that really at that point in my life, I needed that. I needed somebody to say, don't quit. You've got

this. Keep trying. Keep going for it. And I decided to write the Air Force Academy a letter every week. I had my liaison officer, who was my connection to the Air Force Academy, said, you might want to let the Air Force Academy know that you're still interested. So I took that maybe to the extreme and I wrote them a letter every week and keep in mind, we're talking handwritten letters and just said, hey, if somebody turns down their spot, if there's an opening, I really want to be there. I want to serve our country. I want to go to the Air Force Academy. And I would tell them if I had done more push-ups, pull-ups, sit-ups, got an A on a test, you name it, I would let them know. And I eventually took a different standardized test and did much better. So that was probably

the main thing that helped me. But I ended up getting this very late offer of appointment just a few weeks before basic training was to start. And there was no doubt in my mind. I mean, this is what I had wanted all along. I did have some backup plans as I think it's helpful to do. But, you know, that rejection shaped me in so many ways. And to have that happen early in my life, you know, for one thing, I got to the Air Force Academy and I was like, I'm going to show them, right?

I'm going to show them that I belong. And, you know, I ended up graduating at the top of my class. And I was like, see, I approved it, right? that I belong, that I was, you know, that I could, that I could do it. And it was a turning point for me. I just, I just love the story. So it was not only you get rejected, but then instead of saying like, I'll screw them, I'll go somewhere else, I'll do something else. They don't, you said, no, no, I'm going to prove them how badly I want it. I'm going to keep at it. You weren't too prideful or too full of yourself. You humbled yourself a bit and kept going. I mean,

that's who we want serving our country. But you actually reminded me of a question that Garon Stokes, asked you when we were together in person. And I'd love for you to elaborate on it. He is a fellow dad of daughters. And he said, how do I get my daughters to grow up and be like you? What did your dad do for you? Can you share a little bit more about what your dad and mom did for you growing up to get you to turn out like this? I love that question because my dad has played such a significant role in my life in terms of the Air Force Academy and my mom. I mean, both of them have just been tremendous role models for me. My dad had gone to the academy. My mom, was an oncology nurse. I mean, they just, they really set the example for me in terms of,

you have to put in the work. Like, it just doesn't come easy. And so when I told them that I wanted to be a fighter pilot in 1986, you know, women weren't allowed to be fighter pilots. They never told me that. They never said, hey, you can't do that. Or there's a policy against that. They just said, okay, then do the work, right? Be prepared, put in the work and go after it. And my dad took that to heart. I mean, he said, look, if you're going to go to the Air Force Academy, you have to work on your upper body strength because you have to be able to do pushups and pullups. And I was a cross-country runner. I played soccer. So upper body strength was not my strong point. So he installed a pull-up bar in the bathroom. And every time I'd go in and out of that bathroom, I had to do pull-ups. And when I started,

I could only do this flexed arm hang. And by the time I was done, I could max the pull-ups for the Air Force Academy physical fitness test. So I mean, that was the example my dad said was like, you can have these big amazing goals and dreams, but they're not going to happen on their own. You have to put in the work. So we also ran the hills in San Jose where I grew up in combat boots. I mean, my dad was all in. He was going to support me in this big dream that I had. But he was also, you know, he pushed me to to be at my best, you know, to go and prepared and to be ready. Yeah, it's not enough to say, oh, honey, you can do whatever you want. Just put. your mind to it. There's more to it than that, right? You can do anything you want. If your work ethic

and attitude is if you're willing to match that to these big, ambitious goals. And I think that's good not only for kids, but certainly for those of parents to think about that. Like, we're not helping our children by being just super nice and pleasant saying, oh, sure, you can do that. You can. No, let's help support you and put you into position to say, or pull up bar. Okay, there are the hills if you want to do it i'll support you but it's going to take work on on your end you're going to have some ownership over that i'll just be here to support you do i think that that that's an amazing sign of leadership from your parents yeah and i you know this is like something that when i talk to my kids about who are now 11 and 15 you know it's they're very into sports

and so a lot of it is all right you want to be good at it you got to put in the work but also like i think it's a reminder for all of us at every point in our career or life whatever it is when we want to do something new and put ourselves out there. Like, it requires work if you want to be good at it. You know, you have to do the research, do your homework, put in the work if you want to be good at something. Also, I mentioned before how you just got up and spoke. You weren't scheduled to speak. And when you did, though, you would have assumed that you were scheduled and that you had

prepared like crazy. So to me, it feels like you have this mentality of, I don't want to speak for you, but I'd love you to share how you think about this, this mentality of you don't have to get ready if you're always ready. Like if you're overly prepared for whatever you're doing, you're just always in a position of being ready to go. Can you share more about your level of preparation so that at a moment's notice you can get up and share this amazing story and knock the room over and do it in a way in which people would have assumed that you had prepared forever for it? Yeah, I think I know we'll get to this story a little bit, but, you know, I,

having faced a life or death experience where I wouldn't have told you in advance that I was able to do something like that. In the moment, I was able to handle it. And so I think when you experience something like that where you're put on the spot where all of your preparation and training, like everything comes together in this one moment, can you do it? Can you handle it? that really set the stage for me for the rest of my career for the rest of my life because I realize that you don't always know when those moments are going to be, you know, whether it's like you're going to be called on in a meeting in front of your boss and you want to be ready. It's like, you know, it's just basic everyday things.

If you do the work, then you're ready for those moments and you can, you know, you can shine when people are counting on you, right? When they're counting on you to get the job done or when you're in. that moment and you have to respond, can you do it in a positive, successful way? For me, I have always followed an approach of prepare, practice, and plan for contingencies. So the preparation is like the homework, the research, you know, all the things that we need to study and look back on, you know, seeking out other lessons learned, but then taking it that next step and practicing. So really, like, whether it's actual physical practice or visualization, really just thinking,

through critical steps, talking through, you know, for me in an airplane, it's talking through radio calls. It's talking through difficult conversations that you could have with a coworker. It's so many things of just kind of really getting into the details and thinking through it, acting through it if it's something like that. And then I'm, you know, I'm, I guess I'm a realist in many ways of like, I'm going to plan for the things that could go wrong, right? I'm just, I want to have thought about them so that when the moment comes, I'm ready. And I can just ditch the worry and ditch the stress, easier said than done. But that's kind of the motto for my life is I'm just going to put in the work.

I'm going to do the practice. I'm going to think about the things that could go wrong and I'm going to know how I could potentially react. That's helped me in so many stages of my life. Kim, when someone is promoted to like a CEO role or a really big job, one of the questions I like to ask them is, you know, what did you do? How did you do it? And there's a lot of reasons people get big jobs like that. But there's usually part of the story is, I was actually in a meeting with a lot of the high-level decision makers or even the board who helps choose the CEO. And I got up off the cuff and was able to share and prove my competence and my confidence and my vision without really any preparation, although I was preparing on my own for a moment like that.

So when my moment came, I was ready to meet the moment. I feel like that's what you do preparing, practicing, planning for contingencies. So no matter what happens, no matter what room you're in, if the PowerPoint doesn't work or whatever it is, I'm ready to go. As you are a keynote speaker, you know this. We go to places and at times the AV and the tech stuff doesn't work. The PowerPoint doesn't work. I've had microphones, multiple mics not work. No matter what happens, your job is to entertain the crowd, to educate the crowd, to inform the crowd,

and to make sure they leave better than you found them. So no matter what happens, we have to be ready to go and there are going to be things that are going wrong. And I think from a leadership perspective, Kim, this is useful for all of us. Like it doesn't matter the situation. I'm going to be ready to go no matter what all the time so that I leave the people that I'm leading or I'm speaking to in a much better place than I found them. Yeah.

And it's like a little bit of a reminder like in those moments when things do go wrong or you put on the spot, right? The microphones don't work. The slides aren't working. Whatever it is. Like, what's most important? And it's like center up, focus on what's most important. It's delivering the message. It's connecting with people. Like the rest of the stuff is a bonus. And, you know, sometimes though we can start feeling overwhelmed by those little things that could go wrong. But if it's just a reminder kind of center up, focus on what's most important, connect with people, deliver your message. Like, that's what people are looking for. Okay, I want to get to a couple of dates.

All right? So the first date is March 20th, 2003. On this day, you were writing letters to your family. And these are letters that they are going to be given if you died at war. Now, I've never written a letter like this. I can't imagine what that is like. Can you take me back to March 20th, 2003, what you were thinking? maybe even some of the things that you were writing, if you remember, and what was going through

your mind? As you know, you're about to enter combat in a war. Yeah, that was a huge reality check. Let's put it that way. I had deployed for Operation Iraqi Freedom, young wingmen, you know, not a ton of combat experience up to this point. I had been in Afghanistan, but a very different type of conflict. And our squadron commander, who is, you know, the leader of our unit, says, if you're going to fly missions, then you are all required to write letters to your family, to whoever you choose, so that if you don't make it, I will have a letter to deliver to your family. And we all, like, we all kind of looked at each other. And I think it was very intentional on his part because I think he really wanted us to, you know, treat it very seriously like

this was a reality check of the threat is a lot higher. Like you need to be ready. You need to be on your game. You need to be performing at your best. So I think, you know, there was that side of it from him from a leadership perspective of just making sure we were very focused. And then from my side, I think it was, you know, like I said, a reality check of, I think sometimes we think we're invincible and those things are not going to happen to us.

but it's also when I wrote the letters, it was kind of like a relief that I had just put it all on paper and then I could let that worry go. I wasn't worried about dying when I was flying missions. I was focused on my mission. I was focused on supporting our troops on the ground. Like I had taken care of the things that I needed to take care of. I had essentially said goodbye in these letters and, you know, shared with my family, my feelings and my thoughts and, you know, how important they were in my life.

And so I think once I was able to do that, it was like, okay, now I can really just stay focused on this mission and know that I've said what I needed to say. Is that what you say? Do you tell them just how much you love them and thank them for their support? Or like, because you know they're going to be red and you're not there. So it's just, I can't even imagine like how that would mess with my mind. So my secret, not a secret anymore, clearly, is that I have those letters. And they're still in an envelope that so that our commander gave us all the letters back.

And you're getting me thinking, like, maybe I should go open those letters. I'm really- So are they sealed? Yeah. Well, yes. They're like in a, the whole envelope is sealed because he put them in a safe, a lockbox and with the intent to give them back to us. I don't know. It's clearly been 20 years. So maybe I should go back and look. I'd be interesting to see what I wrote. It makes me a little like it definitely would bring me back for sure.

In your book, though, like I love that you put actual like flying in the face of fear, but I love that you put like actual journal entries kind of sprinkle them in because and you could tell like I'm sure they're like maybe lightly edited, but it doesn't seem like they're really edited. It's just you. what you're really thinking real time in the moment. And is that a normal practice? I would think it probably should be, but is a normal practice to take a like real life journal entries while you're at war? You know, one of my mentors had given me the idea. He just said, hey, things are going to be crazy. They're going to be busy.

Like just write it down. You know, we have these green military notebooks and just start writing. And I did. And it was such a, for me, it was like a relief. of like a stress relief thing that I did every night. You know, you're just, you're on adrenaline. Things are going, you know, it's crazy. We were getting rocketed. Like, there's just so much going on. And to come home, home, to come back to my room at the end of the day and to just kind of put it all on paper, it was a way for me to kind of release some of that, you know, there's some frustrations in there.

There's some, you know, just details. It was a way for me to kind of put it all on paper and then focus on the next day. But it's so great to have those memories now of what I was thinking and what I was, you know, just the different details of the mission. And for me also to, you know, as an instructor, later in my life as an A10 pilot instructor, I was able to use some of those things to help kind of this next generation of A10 pilots. So grateful for that idea. I wish I would have done it on every combat deployment. Turns out when I became a leader on some of those deployments, I got a lot busier and didn't do it quite as much. I think it's a good idea for leaders in all walks of life, regardless of your job, is keep a journal of what's happening.

This is something I learned a couple years ago from Matthew Dix. He calls it homework for life. You can call it whatever you want. He did a TED talk with, I believe that's the title as well. But basically, it's documenting the stories of each day. And Kim's is probably, I don't know if I call it more entertaining, but maybe a little scarier than most of ours when when you're at war. But from a leadership perspective, I like to just add on, what did I learn today? And then what are the stories of the day?

And I don't necessarily do it every single day, but do it a lot of days. But then you go back and you look through it. And you're like, oh, yeah, I forgot about that. Oh, yeah. So that tells me if I didn't write it down, I probably wouldn't remember it. And so of nothing else, it's a good way to get the thoughts out of your head onto the page, to clarify some of your thinking, to document your learnings. So you can draw from them moving forward.

Because if you don't, life kind of happens fast and you'll forget. So documenting your days, I think it's just a really good idea. Yeah. And I, you know, I feel like I documented probably some of the hardest days. You know, I think especially even in my leadership role later on in the Air Force, some of the most difficult decisions I made, I documented them mostly because it helped me think through it. Yep. And I, you know, that was what just writing it out sometimes in those really difficult.

you know, having to make a difficult decision or think through a difficult situation, writing it out at least gave me like just almost some clarity as I did it. Absolutely. Let's go to the next date I mentioned. April 7th, so not that long after you wrote this letter, are these letters. It's April 7, 2003, just a couple of weeks after you're going into combat. Operation Iraqi Freedom had been underway for almost three weeks. you're on a mission to protect our troops on the ground.

What happened? You know, really it was a day like every other day, we prep for these missions. We plan for them to protect our troops on the ground. At this point in the war, our ground troops had made it all the way to Baghdad. And so the fighting had really become intense.

It was a lot different. There were a lot higher threat situation. And we did what we did every day, which we took off. We flew up to Baghdad. we would air refuel, so we would get full of gas, and then we would just wait. We'd wait for these taskings to come in, not knowing what we were going to be asked to do. And unfortunately, the weather wasn't very good that day, so we were a little worried we may not

really be able to do anything. And then we get this frantic call over the radio. And, you know, I can hear the words to this day. And it was yard zero five, this is an advance three, three, we're taking fire. We need immediate assistance. And, you know, that's like those are the words that we listen for, you know, troops in contact, they need immediate assistance, like hair in the back of my neck stands up, my adrenaline's pumping, because I know right now lives are on the line.

So we get the whole situation update of what's happening. We put the coordinates in our system and we proceed immediately to the target area, which thankfully is only just a few minutes away. And I remember just, you know, my heart is racing like this is the, This is everything I've trained for. This is like these guys are counting on us. And I, you know, I'm a young wingman. I'm also nervous.

But I watch my flight lead and he just, you know, he's confident and he just kind of rolls inverted and disappears through the clouds to get down below the weather. We kind of found a few holes that we could dive down in. And then he says, all right, Casey, it's your turn. And I remember just popping out down below the weather and seeing this huge firefight. And there's tracers and smoke. and it's just, it's very surreal, right? I mean, we train for this, we plan for this, and yet, I don't know if anything truly prepares you to, like, see it in real time and it's happening.

All the while I'm, you know, trying to set up for my weapons pass, you know, just lots of things going through my mind. And we made a few passes with gun and rockets. And because of the threat area, you know, so not only is there's this firefight, but we start to see like puffs of smoke and bright flashes. So we know that they're shooting at us. as well, but we got to get in there and support the troops on the ground. So we do these couple passes. We're going to climb up, get our energy back. And I roll in on my last pass. I got everything

lined up. I'm essentially what I'm doing is putting rockets down underneath a bridge at an enemy location, really a lot lower than we normally are, just to make sure that we can get under that bridge. We're below the weather and pull off away from target after I release my weapons. Very Very normal, just climbing up to get my energy back, my altitude, my airspeed. And I just feel this huge explosion at the back of the airplane. Like this bright red, orange fireball envelops the aircraft. And there is no doubt in my mind. I mean, I know immediately that I'm hit.

The jet noses over and I see Baghdad getting closer. Like I can see the Tiger's River. And it's just, it's coming up at me. I remember just, I instinctively, I just pull back. on the control stick and nothing happens, like nothing. And now I'm getting worried of like, am I like, I'm going to have to eject. Like, you know, there's just lots of things going on in my mind. And and then it was like the reality, like training kicks in and immediately analyze a situation, figure out what's going on. I've got lots of flashing lights. Things are, you know,

the jets loud. And I just remember looking down at these lights on my control panel and seeing indications that I had completely lost my hydraulic system, which is how we control the airplane. Not much I can do at this point other than eject or hope that our jet goes into this backup emergency system. And thankfully, flip the switch and that airplane slowly starts to climb up and away from Baghdad. And that's kind of the first moment of like, all right, I might actually survive this. Wow. And then you have a decision to make still, though, right? Because you're hit, you're not 100% sure, right? Can this plane, can I make it back? And you already felt that there were huge issues. What goes into your decision making process of, am I going to have

to eject out of this airplane or can I make it back? Yeah. I was just hoping in many ways that the airplane would make it back. I mean, that's all I can do at this point. And I was also like, how fast can I get out of Baghdad, right? Just get away from the immediate threat area. Because if I had to eject, I knew that essentially my chances of rescue survival would be much better if I was outside the city. So it's just let's get south. Let's get as far as we can. And thankfully, that airplane, you know, it made it all the way home. Like it, yes, there were pieces of the airplane flying off as I made my way back. I didn't know about them. Thankfully, my flight lead, my wingman who was with me kind of kept quiet what he needed to keep quiet,

but also told me kind of the extent of the damage. And we just talked it through the whole way back of, you know, do I want to jump out or do I want to try to land it? And probably the hardest decision I've ever made. Like I just, I felt like if I made the wrong decision, I could potentially die trying. And I just, you know, I weighed all the pros and cons. I went through everything.

We went through lots of emergency procedures. I had an hour to fly the airplane, kind of get a feel for how it's flying. And I decided that I really felt in my gut like it was the right decision. Like I didn't, you know, we weighed and talked about everything. But in the end, I just kind of went with, I've flown this airplane for an hour. It's flying pretty well. I had never practiced landing in manual reversion.

It's not something we practiced because it's too dangerous. But I just felt good with the airplane. And I also knew that I could potentially eject at the last second if I needed to. And so I committed to the. decision of landing and, you know, it's nerve-wracking, not knowing whether you're going to live or die after making a decision. But I just focused kind of on the task at hand, flying the airplane, keeping it under control. We did a controllability check to make sure that I could get the gear down and everything looked fairly normal. And I decided at that point I would continue with the

approach. You know, it's interesting. I went back and I listened to the audio from the mission. And I was actually surprised at how confident I sounded on the radio when my flight lead asked me confirm you want to continue with the landing. And I was just like, yep, I'm going to land the airplane. Like, no, like, where is the doubt and the worry? Like, I was so shocked at myself, like, because I know how scared I was. And I think part of it was like, I'm going to sound good on the radio. That way I convince everyone, you know, that I've got this. Including yourself, though, right?

Like, that's like real deal. like self-talk. I mean, don't you think that plays a role? Like the stories we tell ourselves, the self-talk we use makes a difference. It does. And I think I just was like, I'm going to do this like I do every day. I've landed this airplane hundreds of times. I'm going to do it this time. And yeah, there's a few things going on, but I've got this. And I'm going to sound good. I'm going to sound controlled. I just, I wanted it to make it as normal as I could, despite the fact that there was all this damage to the back of the airplane. And I learned too that you had to sign a waiver for if you were to eject to sign a waiver basically to say based on your size and as a woman that it wasn't built for somebody your size. Can you explain more about this waiver that you had to sign and why it is?

Yeah, that certainly weighed on my mind a little bit in my decision making process of right, do I want to land? Do I eject? And, you know, I know our ejection seat is safe. And there's been obviously many lives saved because of that ejection seat. But I also knew that my weight was below the normal threshold. And so we signed, I call it a waiver. I don't know. Maybe it was a sheet of awareness.

But it was essentially saying like, just if you have to eject because of your lower weight, you are at an increased risk of failing injuries. So, you know, at the time I signed him, like, whatever, I want to fly. That's never going to happen to me, you know. So I signed the waiver. So that was certainly in the back of my mind. But, you know, flying in an A10, we're sitting in a titanium bathtub. Like this is this incredibly reliable and durable airplane.

And jumping out of that airplane, ejecting like, there was part of me that I was like, you know, it's flying well. It feels good. I feel confident. And like I said, I just kind of went with my gut. Like, this feels good. It feels right. I've done the training. I've put in the work.

And this is my moment. So you made the decision to land it. What happens? It was all fairly normal, like right up until I got close to the ground. And, you know, I remember coming down for the final approach. And, you know, I know my heart was beating. I can hear in my voice. It gets a little bit higher pitched as I get closer to the ground.

My confident voice doesn't sound as good. I remember crossing the landing threshold and the airplane just started this quick roll to the left. And that was like the moment of like heart speeding. skipping beats, like, terrified is the only word that I can come up with because that role felt like to me, I wasn't sure that I was going to have time to even eject if I couldn't get the airplane uprighted. Like, ejecting pointed towards the ground would not go well. Thankfully, I yank the stick back quickly.

I mean, this is like seconds or microseconds, but, you know, my brain's working fast and yank the stick back. And thankfully, the airplane just levels out. And, you know, like, it's just slow motion. You know, I'm getting closer to the ground and I'm thinking like, I'm praying, you know, just please let me make it. You know, there's not much more I can do this point than do everything I've been trained to do and pray.

And I got to about 10 feet and I'm just thinking, I am so close. Like, just hold it steady. Just keep it steady. And then I remember hearing and feeling the main gear hit and then the note. those gear come down and I was like, like, relief beyond relief. I still can't find the right word for this. It is just like full body relief of like I have survived, like I've made it. Never mind the fact that my airplane is still rolling down the runway. I am just in this full like, okay, thank you, God. I have made it. I have landed. And now I need to get the airplane stopped. And I don't have

normal breaks. I don't have steering. And I'm again, relying on this very incredible, reliable, durable airplane. And it works exactly like it's supposed to, exactly as advertised. I've got a backup emergency braking system that thankfully slows the airplane. I'm able to keep it on the runway and bring the jet to a stop. Oh, this story is just so wild. When you think about, I can't imagine you've had a moment as scary as that since then. But how do you use the feel of from that day and the feeling that you had of like I had to make tough decisions. I could have died multiple times and because of your your poise and your composure and your decision-making and then your skills, you made it. How do you use that into normal everyday

life leadership things? Right. You've went on to be an instructor. You've taught leadership. You give speeches, right? So you have you've probably heightened moments of maybe that nervous anticipatory feeling before a speech or whatever it may be, nothing quite like that. But how do you draw from that to be better now in everyday leadership life? Yeah. You know, I've had 20 years to reflect on this now. So I've done a lot of thinking about it. And I did have scary moments in the jet, but nothing that compared to that. And I think, you know, the reality is, right, like fear is fear, right? It doesn't have to be a life or death situation. It doesn't have to be getting hit with a surface to air missile over combat.

in combat. Like, fear is a very real natural emotion. It's the fear of failure, right? It's fear of not meeting expectations. It's fear of change. It's fear of the unknown. Like all of these things, all of these things we face in our life, they can feel daunting, they can feel stressful, they can feel overwhelming. But to me, what I've realized, like, looking back is like, I never wanted to admit that I was scared after that mission. Like I was like, no way, especially in a bunch in front of a bunch of fighter pilots. Like I never wanted to admit the fact that I was scared. But I knew I was, partly because I went back and listened to the audio and I can hear the fear in my voice when it happened.

I hear this, the fear that's coming through. But the reality is like, that's a very normal reaction. And facing fear in our everyday lives is normal. What's most important is what we do with that fear. It is being afraid and taking action. It is like stepping up in the face. of fear, doing the hard things, even when we're scared. Like, that's what's most important.

It's not the fear that matters. It is about stepping up to take action in the face of fear. And I just think so many times in my life since that mission and beyond, like, I look back and I realize every time I was going to do something new, whether it was, you know, even just starting basic training or taking command of a squadron, right, being in charge of 150 people. Later on in my career, it was over a thousand people. like, I was excited, but there was fear because I wanted to meet expectations, right? I wanted to live up to everything that I thought I should be.

And so there was always this, if you don't like the word fear, use doubt, use worry, whatever it is. But it's okay. It is all about what you do with it. That's what matters. To me, that is, I've realized that. Like, I need to give myself some grace when I start feeling the doubt and the worry and the fear and just take action. Do something with it. When I look at you, it's like, there's no way she deals with imposter syndrome.

But I also realize you also are human. So you probably do because I heard Neil Armstrong dealt with imposter syndrome after walking on the moon. So if he did, I'm like, everybody probably does. What's your method or what's your philosophy framework for handling and dealing with imposter syndrome? I think for me, like when I start feeling like that little bit of doubt, that worry like creeping in, it's a sign for me. Like I can feel it. Like I can be in the car thinking about something coming up and I can feel it. I can feel like the nervous tension kind of creeping in.

And that is a sign for me to go put in the work. Right. It goes back to the prepare practice plan for contingencies. Like it could be anything. It could be having a conversation with my teenager. It could be, you know, preparing for a speech that maybe I just, I don't know that I'm quite ready for it. Whatever it is, it's that I kind of acknowledge it.

I go, okay, why am I feeling this way? Like, I know this feeling like, what is this? And I'll go back. And to me, it's like, okay, put in the work, do the research, do my homework, you know, practice. Think about the things could go wrong. Like, what's worrying me about this? Why is that fear creeping in and just think through it? And again, for me, like, I don't know that I like, I don't want to say it eliminates the fear, right?

There's always maybe, like, I'm still a little nervous when I get up on stage and to speak in front of people. But I think it's good because it ensures that I put in the work. And so it doesn't eliminate the fear. It's never always completely gone. But it sure does give me a lot more confidence that I'm ready. Like I've put in the work. I am competent and it gives me more confidence. I think preparation is one of the greatest medicines for fear.

Yeah. It really is. If there's a difference between having those slight nerves, it's like when I played football, you're about to run out in front of 100,000 people, the big house. University of Michigan, I vividly remember that feeling and knowing, wait, I put it in the reps, I'm prepared. I'm ready. Are these guys bigger, stronger, faster?

Probably, yes. But I've still done my part to be prepared. Now it's time to just let it fly. Right. And I think the same can be said, whether it's giving a speech or your Monday morning team meeting. If you've done the work, if you've prepared, you've created evidence for yourself to be confident to go do your thing versus just like taking a test that you've done.

haven't studied for. Of course you're going to be nervous and scared because you haven't done the work. And so I think that's, I'm right. That's why I love your books. I love just your overall vibe, Kim, is because it's like at a fundamental level, you've got to do the work. You've got to do the prep. And if you do that, you can get up and do whatever your version of work is on a moment's notice without any preparation or getting ready because you've been preparing for a long time getting ready for that moment. Yeah. And I love what you say. Like I think about like, you know, there are the little nerves and the jitters. But like once you step on the field, once I strap into the airplane, once I step on stage, like, there's no more preparation.

Like be in the moment, do what you've been trained to do. And like just go do it. Like have the confidence. You've done the work. Like leave it all behind and just go, you know, put it all in the field, whatever it is. Like, you've done the work. You can feel confident in that and then just be in the moment and do what you do. One of the things I've learned from the military and the sporting world, and this is big. I know with fighter pilots is what happens after the mission, the debrief, which now with my leadership team working with the people that we do leadership development work, I love our

debriefs as much as anything else because I learned so much. I get immediate feedback and we figure out, okay, what do we do we do? do well, what do we need to change, what should we keep doing to make sure the next time we're better. And this is something that's a big, big part of the culture from fire pilots. What, what's it like in the room, the debrief? Like, how does it work? Who talks? How do you make sure that you're getting better for the next mission? Yeah, I mean, a debrief is so critical. I mean, I don't think there's a single mission that I flew in the 8-10 where we didn't debrief in some way, fashion or form, even in combat. And for us, a debrief, you know,

When we walk into that debrief, we have a saying that we check our rank and our ego at the door, right, so that the youngest, least experienced members can provide that feedback to the more senior members in the flight. We have our, for us, we write our objectives from the mission on a whiteboard. They're right there in front of us. And we will put pluses and minuses or a plus slash minus next to each objective so that we know, like you said, We talk about what we did well so that we can repeat it. We also drill down into the mistakes that we made. We want to find out what the root cause was of that mistake.

So that means you're continuing to ask yourself the question, why, why? So sometimes the first reason we think about if a mistake was made, if we don't identify that root cause, we're really not fixing anything. And sometimes in organizations, it's easy to blame kind of this. the person or the easiest thing. But if you keep drilling down, asking that question why you, you come to the root cause. Once you have the root cause, now you can identify what lessons did you learn. And then most importantly, you can identify all sorts of lessons. But if you don't change something on the next mission, then you haven't really learned them. So it's root cause,

lessons learned, what will I do differently the next time? For me, I think the other key piece to this, you could be in a debriefing room with two people, the flight lead, the wingman. Aren't those lessons critical for maybe other people in the unit? Sometimes they're pretty similar lessons. We're all kind of learning the same thing. Every now and then we have that big lesson, that big eye-opener that we need to share this. And so I think that's one of the times where we get a little nervous is sharing lessons for mistakes can be really hard.

But if we walk out of that debrief and we share those lessons learn with the rest of our team, Well, now we can elevate the performance of the entire team, of our organization. And that can be a really hard thing to do unless you have a safe space, right? Psychological safety is the thing we talk about. It's kind of the new phrase for it. But it's essentially, do you have a place where people feel safe to provide feedback without feeling blame or shame? And that is critical. If you want to share the lessons, if you want to learn from the lessons, then you've got to have that place built on trust where people feel comfortable to provide the feedback.

That to me is critical. That's what takes a team from an average team to a high performing team. You've got to have trust that you have a safe space to learn from mistakes. That feels to me like creating a wingman culture outside of the military, right? And because not only is it there's people on that mission, but you're saying, I'm going to use a mistake that I made, right? I got to get vulnerable. I don't necessarily, I want to, a lot of us leaders are like, we don't, you know, we don't make mistakes.

But if we do, I'm going to keep it in my tight, tight little circle. And instead, a wingman culture, I have to believe, feels like I'm willing to share with others beyond me for the benefit of them, even if it may make me look bad because I mess something up. Can you go deeper on what it means to create a wingman culture outside of the military? Yeah. I mean, the thing is with a wingman culture, right? And the reason I love that term is I think, you know, in so many of the units that I've been in,

you know, a wing wing culture is about serving a bigger purpose, something more important than ourselves. And so, yes, we support each other, we encourage each other, but we also push each other to be at our best, right? We all understand the role that we play, where we fit into that bigger picture. We also understand that individual performance is critical for shared success. To do all of that, we have to have an environment of trust. We have to have this trust, the ability to be vulnerable to stand up in front of others and say,

I made a mistake, I made a bad decision, I did not do this well. To me, when I have seen leaders do that, I gain tremendous respect for them, right? We as leaders get so worried about what are people going to think. And the reality is I think about myself on the lower end looking up at leaders when they say, you know what, I made a bad decision. Here's how I'm going to go back and fix it. I have a lot of respect for that. And we can all learn from it.

To me, that is a critical piece of leadership, is being willing to be vulnerable to understand that by sharing mistakes, by helping create a culture of failing forward, right, where we learn from our mistakes and failure along the way, that's what it's all about. It's about serving a higher purpose of, by sharing that information, you're lifting others. You're helping others.

You're creating a culture. where you can elevate overall performance. It's absolutely critical, not just in fighter squadrons, but in businesses, organizations and sports teams, you name it. We can all learn from each other. It mostly starts with the leader to do it first, though, right? Well, you've got to set the tone, right? I think if you're a senior leader, people are watching you closely.

And if you are willing to go first, if you're willing to do the hard, thing first, which is like maybe share something you messed up. Now you've set the tone that this is what we do here. This is a safe place to do that. I've modeled that behavior. It's like being a mom or a dad, right? Like one of the number one things we're doing is modeling the behavior because leadership is caught probably more than it's taught. So they're seeing it. Even if and it's kind of registering even if they can't speak that out. But like now as a grown up and as a, as a parent, myself and I'm sure you're the same way, you realize the things your parents did and all the leadership lessons you caught, even if they didn't necessarily say it all the time. And I think

that's the exact same thing is true in a company and an organization is if you got to be willing to do this first. Because if you don't, if you're this, this perfect leader who never makes mistakes and no one sees any of the real vulnerabilities, what are you showing your team? You're showing the leaders, okay, this is how I have to be, I guess. I got to find a way to be perfect never make mistakes, even though obviously that's not true because we're human beings. We all do. And so I think that's hard, but the great ones, right? The ones who sustain excellence, they're confident enough in themselves to do that. Yeah, it's setting the example. And then when somebody finally does, it's also like setting the example in terms of how we respond to that.

Yes. Because we can say it all day. It's a safe space. Come to me with your, you know, talk about your mistakes and failures, then when it happens, we have to respond in an appropriate way. I think, you know, again, people are watching us, right? People are looking to see how we respond. And so those moments are really critical. Yes. One of your phrases that really caught on that you write about and you talk about is aviate, navigate, communicate. Can you go deeper on aviate, navigate, communicate? Yeah, you know, that's a phrase that we learn early in flight training. Aviate, navigate, communicate means that we focus on what's most important first, which is flying the airplane. We navigate, have awareness of our surroundings, and we communicate.

Usually this is in an emergency where we need help. That phrase helps us to slow down in an emergency, right? It really helps us to focus on what's most important and then take the appropriate action. What I realized, and looking back at my mission over Baghdad, you know, certainly in that moment, there's lots of things going wrong. I have to focus on the one thing that's important, which is flying the airplane, right? I can't stop flying it to take care of things. I also need to navigate. I need to have awareness of my surroundings. The enemy's still shooting at us. If I, if I have to eject, I want to be over on the west side of the river, which is where our friendlies

were. And then I have to communicate. I have to communicate with my flight lead to let him know what had happened so that he can help me out. I've also realized that this same concept of prioritization when things are overwhelming, it works outside the cockpit as well. And I kind of look back and I've realized how much I've used it to help me either lead my team, even my family, when a crisis hits, or even just in that feeling of like when you're facing adversity or you're feeling overwhelmed, we aviate by maintaining focus on our critical priorities. You know, it's those moments when you're feeling overwhelmed, what are the things that you have to keep doing that you can't stop doing to keep from hitting the ground. You focus on what's

most important. Then we navigate, right? We need to make sure we have a clear path, clear goals and objectives for our team. We need to be aware of threats and risks to the team and the mission. And then we communicate. We communicate with our team, ensuring they know the way forward. We can communicate with others if they need help. So this is, it's this, for me, it's like this centering idea. Start feeling that overwhelmed, that worry, that doubt, that fear, how I can center up and focus on the things that I can control and focus on what's most important first. So much on the event and the outcome, the thing that's in the middle is how you choose to respond, right? And I feel like that's something that you've really figured out through the

course of your career, like there's going to be whatever crazy events that we can't predict. That's going to happen, right? And there will be an outcome. come. And we don't get to choose what the event's going to be, but we do get to choose how we're going to respond. And hopefully we respond instead of reacting. I know some of the biggest regrets I have as a dad is when I quickly react in the moment to a child as opposed to responding to a child in a moment. And then the outcome is always worse when I quickly react versus when I respond. And I pause intentionally there because then that creates better outcomes. And you and in a war, I feel like probably have gotten more reps than just about anybody of how to,

how to be really good at responding to crazy events, thus creating better outcomes for yourself and your team. I'm only laughing because I feel like, yes, I have learned all those things. And yet I still react as a parent. Parenting is a whole other world, Kim. You know, especially when you're watching your kids play soccer, I'm sure as a goalie. You're like, oh, God, and you go crazy. It's so hard.

Yeah. So much a deep breath can do for us. to ensure that we respond and take that appropriate action and really think through it. I mean, I've really tried to reflect on, you know, that moment over Baghdad. And, you know, like I said, I never thought that I would be in that situation and that I would be able to do something like that. I just never thought that. And so I really wanted to go back and look at it and really think through, like, why was I

successful in that moment? What are the things that led me to be successful? And it is exactly what you say. Like, yes, the training kicked in. I was able to kind of quickly react, but there was also that, how do I respond? You know, taking the time to really think through the situation, even in a short amount of time, and to ensure that I could take the appropriate action. And it was really focusing on the thing that was most important and kind of acknowledging that I had to let some of the other things go.

You know, just focus on what's most important, focus on what I can control. try to put the fear, the doubt, the worry that is always creeping in and just kind of tuck that aside, deal with it later. But, you know, really just focus on doing that thing that's most important, which for me on that day was flying the airplane. One more thing I want to cover. This, I believe you learned from a guy named Mike Johnny Bravo, Drawley, was maybe how you pronounce the last name. Three words that I feel like could be useful for leaders to hear more about this story. and that is humble, approachable, incredible. What did you learn from Johnny Bravo about being humble, approachable, and credible?

Yeah. So Johnny Bravo at the time was a young captain. He was our weapons officer and I was a young wingman. So he taught me a lot in my day. He is now Brigadier General Johnny Bravo. And he taught me a ton of things about flying. But one of the things that he shared that really resonated with me was this idea of being humble, approachable, and credible.

And it's what we teach at our weapons school for all instructors. So the people that are going to lead our squadrons, our Air Force, it is a leadership piece of, yes, we have to be good at what we do, right? If we're going to be effective as team members and leaders, credible, capable. We have to be credible and capable. But I think we also need to be humble and approachable, right? It's about being good at what you do, but it's also about creating connections and building trust with a team. And I think, you know, it's kind of funny because I have used that term and people say, well, fighter pilots, fighter pilots and humble aren't, they're not things that I usually see, but the reality is like I look at our squadrons and the best people that I flew with, my best instructors, the best leaders were humble, right? They were willing to learn. They were willing to share their mistakes. They were also approachable so that us young, inexperienced, you know, lower end of the,

the unit could go ask questions and could learn from them. Those are the people that you wanted to be around. And I think it's just, it's such a great concept for leaders in any organization. Be good at what you do, but be humble, be willing to learn, even at the top of your game, even at the peak of your career, even as you're a CEO,

you have so much you can learn from your team. But you have to be approachable. You have to be willing to engage with your team. Like get out, walk around, talk to people. and also encourage people to bring their ideas to the table. I think often in any organization, some of the most innovative, creative solutions, it comes from the members of our team

because they're often closest to the problem. But if we're not engaging with them, if we're not approachable, if we're not willing to learn from them with humility, then how do we find those things out? I just think it's such a great concept to think through in any leadership role, at any point in your career,

be humble, be approachable, and be credible. And ask yourself, am I really a humble leader? Am I approachable? Am I credible? And I'll tell you, one of the ways to really know your stuff and be more credible is to get out on the front lines. General McChrystal talked about that on this podcast, some of the best sales, senior sales leaders or CEOs.

In fact, I believe you're sitting close to Alan Debus, who is a CEO of Turnberry Solutions and I did a call with his team today and we were just talking about the fact that that's one of his top priorities and Allen's gotten really good is he's on the front lines all the time front lines with the people sales reps or consultants or other people who are with clients you want to learn what's happening that's the best way to learn because you're seeing it for real you're seeing it live is to get out and it also makes you much more approachable because the people you're with, they realize, while he's smart, he's a CEO, he's really good, but you're still just a person and you're there and you're sharing lunch and you're riding the car,

you're doing whatever, like, oh, what an approachable person. And you have to humble yourself to do that because I have worked for leaders before who wouldn't do that. They wouldn't humble themselves enough to do that because they wanted to be seen up here. But the best leaders, the most effective ones. That's why I love this Johnny Broadway story is that they're so humble, approachable. and they've built up credibility because they're not afraid to go on the front lines, even if they may not be the smartest person in that room because they're not doing that on a day-to-day basis. So I really love that.

The times that I have connected with my team the most, the times where I have learned the most about them, about the team, about myself, have been in those moments walking around, going to visit my young airmen. I used to block white space on my calendar. every Wednesday, I think it was like from, you know, 11 to 1, I block white space to just walk around and talk to my team. When I became a group commander, so that's about a thousand people, my units were spread across South America, Central America, in the Caribbean, and I was stationed in Arizona. Every time I went to visit them, I made a point, like, I don't want to just sit in a briefing room and have you present to me what's going on. I want to go talk to each section to really learn from them. And at first they were kind of like, well, what do you mean you want to like be with us when we're doing our stuff?

I'm like, no, I'm serious. And I had these young civil engineers. They taught me how to drive a front loader. Was I good at it? No, I really sucked at it at first. But, you know, I was learning. And the youngest airman was teaching me. Like, it was such a cool connection moment.

My firefighters brought me in the burnhouse with them. Now, that was cool, you know, like going in there. But there was also that part of me that was like, oh, I don't want to do something stupid in front. of them, you know, but I'm like, all right, suit me up, you know, teach me what to do. And I learned so much from them. It gave me really like a sense of like I understood a little bit more. You know, I'm no firefighter. They're not inviting me on the next fire. But like I understood a little bit more about what they were going through. It helped me think through when there was an ask for resources, money, more people, you name it, whatever it was. I understood it a little bit more.

And I think, you know, it is about get out, walk around, get your hands dirty, you know, spend time with your team. And that is humble, that is approachable. And it builds credibility as well. No doubt. You're in the book. You're right. You are the experts. Teach me. And I think that shows them the humility to get out there. And that, again, makes you more approachable and more credible. This is so good. I highly recommend, I just reread Kim's book getting ready for this next one, flying in the face of fear of fighter pilots lessons on leading with courage. It is so, so good. Regardless of your job, where you want to go, what you want to do, or if you just want to be entertained, it's amazing, but also will make you a much better leader. So, Kim, thank you so much for coming back. I know we're going to continue our dialogue as we both progress. Absolutely. Thanks so much, Ryan. I appreciate it.

It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learn. from this great conversation with Kim Campbell. A few takeaways from my notes. Prepare, practice, plan for contingencies. I played for a great football coach at Miami University named Terry Hepner and used to always tell us every day, have a plan, work the plan, and plan for the unexpected.

As leaders, it is on us to prepare, practice, plan for contingencies. You don't have to get ready if you stay ready. Then I love the way Kim's dad helped support her dream to be a fighter pilot. If you want to do this, you have to put in the work. Run hills. Do pull-ups every time you go to the bathroom. He didn't just tell her she could do whatever she wants. He created opportunities for Kim to take ownership and do the necessary work to achieve what she wanted. As leaders, we can all do this. And then Kim's telling of the story when she was hit and how she responded. It's an amazing example of responding in the face of fear, of dealing with adversity in a calm, poised manner and making tough decisions. Then Kim's

training combined with her attitude and outlook on life and being overly prepared is what set her apart and saved her life. So good. Ladies and gentlemen, I want to say thanks again for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two. Hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Kim Campbell. I think she'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that.

And you also go to Apple Podcast and Spotify and you subscribe to the show. And you rate the show, hopefully five stars and you write it thoughtful review. And by doing all of that, you are continually giving me the opportunity. opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talking soon, can't wait.