The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 596: Arthur Brooks - The Art & Science of Happiness, Defining Your Purpose, Working with Oprah, Living Authentically, and Building The Life You Want

Episode Date: August 18, 2024

Read our book, The Score That Matters https://amzn.to/3XxHi7p Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Notes: Arthur grew up with one goal - To be the world's greatest French horn player. He learned that striving for something was fungible across all fields of life. It was a great laboratory for learning. Intrinsic vs Extrinsic motivation - Intrinsic motivation comes from an internal desire to accomplish a goal, while extrinsic motivation comes from external rewards and praise.  "Misery comes from excessive auto-focus." Misery comes from thinking about yourself too much and not enough about helping others. The curse of the strive... All happiness comes from progress. The arrival is not the goal. How to be happy while striving: Be grateful - Write it down. Do it daily. Always look to help others. "All research is 'me-search.'" The Four Idols:  Money, Power, Pleasure, and Prestige/Fame. We talked through ours… What are yours? The Four Focus areas to help with happiness Faith Family Friendship Serving Others Define your purpose. Write it down. Understand why you're here. Mine = "To inspire others to value and pursue excellence." Too many people are ok with mediocrity. We should strive for more. Oprah Winfrey is the same person everywhere she goes. She is genuine and authentic to all. Arthur's column helped Oprah stay positive and happy through the pandemic. So much so that she called him and asked to meet. And eventually, write a book together. That book became a #1 best-seller. #1 Life Hack: "Don't lie ever." Arthur is jacked (in great shape). Taking care of your body helps with unhappiness. Wake up 1.5 hours before dawn. Work out hard. Lift weights. Do challenging cardio. Life/Career Advice: Don't worry too much about the first job out of college. Don't sacrifice relationships. Bring love to every relationship and be great at what you do. Be excellent. Emanate love and show excellence.

Striving and learning to be excellent and hard work and personal responsibility and discipline are completely fungible across all fields. All the things that I was doing were making me incredibly good at doing what I wanted to do, get me where I wanted to go, and not make me happy. That was the problem. What are the habits of happy people? So that's a big question. Getting less unhappy is different than the habits for getting more happy. All happiness comes from progress. That very little happiness comes from winning.

It comes from progress toward a goal. These are the great secrets. When it comes to writing with Oprah, like how did that whole thing come about? I've learned so much from Oprah, I've got to tell you, literally one of the five most famous people in the world, and who has equanimity. The way to do that is to live a life that's impeccable in both public and private, and they never lie to anybody. Don't lie ever. Don't lie. Jim Collins told me on episode number 216 that the single greatest determining factor in my long-term success or failure would be my who, who I chose to surround myself with. And that conversation has had a huge impact on how I've designed my business.

And one of the most important elements that I provide is my learning leader circle. and I open up applications one time per year, and that time is now at learning leader circle.com is where you can apply. Now, this is the most inefficient element of my business because I personally read every application, and I personally choose who will go on to the next round, and then who will ultimately be one of the 12 people to be in my next Learning Leader Circle. And I only do it one time per year, and that time is now. If you are intentional about surrounding yourself with others who will push you, challenge you, make you think differently, if you're willing to self-reflect and do some work, this could be for you.

And you can apply at learningleaders circle.com. We meet once per month on Zoom and then we meet one time per year in person for our leadership retreat for members of my learning leader circle. So if you'd like to apply, go to learning leader circle. Welcome to The Learning Leaders Show, presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Tech Hawk to 666866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off.

Right. You'll also receive details about how our book, The Score That Matter. will help you become a more effective leader. Text Hawk to 66866. Now on to tonight's featured leader. Arthur Brooks teaches courses on leadership and happiness at Harvard Business School. He's a columnist at the Atlantic where he writes the popular quote, How to Build a Life column.

He's also the author of 13 books, including a couple number one New York Times bestsellers. one with Oprah Winfrey called Build the Life You Want, the Art and Science of Getting Happier. He also wrote from strength to strength, finding success, happiness, and deep purpose in the second half of life. During this conversation we discuss the habits of the happiest people in the world. And he talks about the four idols, which are money, power, pleasure, and prestige slash fame. We talk through what my idol and anti-iddle are as well as his. And then he shares how you can figure out what yours are. Then Arthur shares the story of Oprah Winfrey calling him, asking to meet with him,

and then eventually asked him to write a book together. Absolutely wild. Ladies and gentlemen, I think you're really going to enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with the great Arthur Brooks. Arthur, it's great to have you here on the Learning Leader Show. Welcome. Thank you. Been looking forward to it, Ryan. So you grew up with one goal, okay? One goal, and that was to be the world's greatest French horn player. Okay. What did you learn from your time growing up, striving to be the greatest in the world at something?

That striving and learning to be excellent and hard work and personal responsibility and discipline are completely fungible across all fields. I thought I was learning to be the world's greatest French horn player. I did not achieve that. What I was setting myself up to do was to succeed and the other things that I tried. And that's because it's a laboratory of learning how to be your best self. And you can practically choose what the specific application of those skills is at any particular time. But once you learn about that kind of discipline and drive and hard work, man, you can deploy it all over the place. I had no idea.

But I sure am glad I did it. What made you get into playing that instrument? My parents had an ambition for me to be a classical musician from a very young age. I started violin when I was four years old, piano when I was five, and I got to choose my own instrument for the first time when I was eight, which was the French horn. And that was what I was best at. I mean, it turned out it had a lot of natural ability on it. And so I was sort of better than the other kids.

And that gave me a lot of self-esteem and confidence. And the more I did it, the better I got, the better I got, the more I did it. And pretty soon, that's pretty much all I was doing by the time I was a teenager. That's all I really cared about doing. So I went to college to do that for one year and then wound up going pro at 19. Also, it helped to kind of be on academic probation to start my professional career, mostly because I was dropping my required classes because all I wanted to do is play concerts. How does one determine who the best French horn player is in the world? It's a subjective judgment to a certain extent, but it really has to do with the opportunities that you're given.

I mean, there are orchestra, symphony orchestras all over the world, and the principal French horn in a symphony orchestra is a coveted spot, and their orchestras are ranked. I mean, everybody knows what the best orchestras all around the world are. There are significant differences in quality between them. And then there's solo positions. There's usually two or three French horn soloists that will be the ones who play concerti in front of the orchestra, you know, the ones who are traveling. around playing Mozart's great horn concertos and then a few people on the side that are doing other things. But we kind of all know it's not that bigger community is the way that works out. It's kind of like pro cycling in its way. You know who's the best based on who's doing well in the

races. So we're going to get into happiness. And I want to see how this being the best or striving to be the best relates to happiness. I like to think of like having an intrinsic, an internal scoreboard versus the external or the scoreboard that others can see. And it feels, Arthur, like the people who are, you're the expert here, but it feels like the people who are happiest are really good about living more by that internal, that intrinsic scoreboard. Can you go a little bit deeper because you were striving? And I think that striving probably helped you develop work ethic and understand excellence and how to go for something and ownership and responsible, like an amazing good, good qualities that probably have helped you where you are today in life.

And some of that, a lot of that was extrinsic, but it seems like the happiest people are more intrinsically motivated and based. So how do you, how do you, when you're thinking about those two things, what comes to mind? Very, very adroit of you, Ryan. It was a good analysis. You could be a very fine social scientist, I must tell you, because indeed, all the things that I was doing were making me incredibly good at doing what I wanted to do. get me where I wanted to go and not make me happy. That was the problem. I mean, the main reason that I wound up leaving is because I just wasn't happy enough.

And I was a married man by that time in my 20s and a woman who loved me. And she said, you're not happy. I said, what are you talking about? Music is my life. She says, trust me, you're not happy. You could be a lot happier. And she helped me to understand that there was a real person within that had goals involving not just my lips, but actually my whole head, my brain, where I could be a creative.

person. There was a lot more than I could do. And she eased me into the concept of actually doing something else. I wound up leaving the business when I was 31 years old. And so when I was 19 until I was 31, I was a professional French horn player. When I was 31, I left it behind and started my PhD. After doing my bachelor's degree by correspondence when I was finishing when I was 30. And it was like I was walking from across into the promised land. I mean, I'd never seen anything like it. How many things that were out there to intrinsically motivate me through interest, through creativity. And I realized that I got a lot of great skills from being a very elite classical musician. But what I didn't get was the skill in being a happier person.

And that's what I've been working on ever since. Okay. What are the habits of happy people? Yeah. So that's a big question. That's a lot of what I do my work on. And we can start with the most basic habits. Now, there's thousands of things that they do.

and there's lots of mistakes that they make. There are also habits that people engage in who are able to manage their unhappiness, which is different than the habits to get happier. Getting less unhappy is different than the habits for getting more happy. So one of the things that I do when I have people that I'm working with, or I'm working with C-Suits of businesses,

is I give people an affect profile test. What that means basically, Ryan, it's a wonky, kind of nerdy, neuroscience way of talking about whether or not unhappiness or happiness is your bigger problem. And what you find is that half of the population is below average in happiness and half of the population is above average and unhappiness because, you know, these are averages of the way that this works. And when I detect that somebody has a happiness problem, I prescribe one set of actions.

When I detect they have an unhappiness problem, I go the other direction. So those are the things that we can talk about. And those are different sets of strategies. Number one, know what you're preys. problem is. By the way, this is one of the great secrets to success in business. Number one, when you walk into a company, somebody hired you as a brand new CFO and a company that's struggling, figure out what's wrong and deal with what's wrong, right? Same thing with your own self. It's like, I'm uncomfortable. I have some insomnia. I'm grouchy all the time. I'm fighting

with my wife. Figure out if you have an unhappiness problem or a happiness problem. And one of the ways to do that is to actually start looking at your affect profile. People can take that test for free, by the way, at Arthur Brooks.com. It's called PANIS. P-A-N-A-S. So go to my website and you can take it and you can find out if you have unusually high and happiness or unusually low happiness, if that's your bigger problem. What's the difference? Yeah. Yeah, what's the difference? Because like I'm trying, I was actually thinking myself, I'm like, I don't know, which man am I? Because let me describe, because I feel like we have some similarities based on all of my research done leading up to this. Like, as a striver, as somebody who really is a growth-focused

person who wants to create a trajectory like this, both for me as well as the people I want to impact this upward trajectory of always getting better, always improving. I remember after my first book, bestseller and my book agent sends me a bottle of champagne, hey, take some time to celebrate, like enjoy yourselves. And that's from 2020. That's true me still sitting in the cabinet. And it's not because like I'll, I'll have champagne, but I haven't. I still really struggle to celebrate big moments, good moments. moments and at times take it out on the people I love the most. And that I hate that. I hate that element of whether, you know, my wife or children, you shouldn't do those things. And you even know

it in the moment. But if you're, I feel like this goes hand in hand at times with people who are striving and trying to grow and trying to get better at all times that you struggle to be happy, even when things are going really well. Well, that's just, that's a real curse of the striver. And this is something that happens a lot. And part of the reason is because strivers, number one, They know something that most people don't, which is that arrival at a goal is not actually what you want. That all happiness comes from progress. That very little happiness comes from winning. It comes from progress toward a goal.

Strivers understand that because they've been striving their whole lives. People who don't strive very much, they're like, hey, if I hit my weight loss goal, then I'll be so happy. No, you won't. The reason your diet's not going to work is because the reward for hitting your goal is you never get to eat what you like ever again for the rest of your life. Congratulations. There's a reason that Olympic gold medalists often fall into a very deep clinical depression after they win because they're expecting it to have been really so wonderful. Now, as they get older as striving athletes, they learn that the arrival is not that great. The problem that strivers have, who wisely like you understand that the arrival is not the goal, is that you

shun the arrival, that you actually try to avoid the arrival as a result of that, or you find that you get kind of superstitious at the arrival, that the win. is bad luck. It's bad juju to open that champagne and enjoy it a little bit because that's going to slow you down. That's going to make it so you don't stay on the trajectory. Man, I've got to win some more because, you know, what you're addicted to, by the way, Ryan, like every striver listening to us. And by the way, only strivers listen to your show because that's why they, this is part of striving. Stryver's got to strive is that that you know that you've got to be, you're addicted to the stress hormones. You're addicted to the cortisol. What's,

actually driving you crazy and making you a little grouchy is the thing that you're addicted to because it's the excitement, the excitement, the feeling that you're actually making progress. And so I got to work with people like you to help you not to strive less, but to live more while you're striving. And not to be completely stuck on the idea that if I don't make tangible progress this very day, then I'm useless. I'm fit only for some sort of extermination, which is how strivers often beat themselves up. I assume you have had to deal with this yourself? My gosh. Yeah, of course. I mean, it's like, oh, totally. I mean, it's this most amazing. I'm 60. I'm older than you. I'm a lot older than you. I'm 60 years old.

And still, man, I'm on that treadmill, baby. Run, run, run, run, run. And that treadmill is getting faster and faster and faster so that if I got something, the first time I had a book on the best cell list years ago, it opened at number eight. And it was like, this is awesome. If I had a book that opened at number eight, I'd be on like suicide watch at this point, not really. But you get the point that I'm making is like, so what did I do wrong? Was it the marketing? Was it the content? Right? And the reason is because you always have to hit these higher and higher, higher levels of attainment to actually even count it as progress. And that is a real, that's actually classic addiction. That is, I mean, that's just like, that's like meth. That's like alcohol.

That's like everything else. And what is doing is it's the neurotransmitters in your brain are saying more, more, more than last time. You need more to actually get that feeling of the progress that you're trying to get. Well, how do you live and I don't know if I'd say be content, but how do you live and be an enjoyable person for your wife and kids to be around while also striving at the same time? So you're always going to be that way, but you also can be a grateful person. You can also be a loving person. You can also be somebody who's working for the good and the success of other people.

When strivers become unbearable is when they're ungrateful. and they turn their victories into defeats because the victories are not great enough. And they don't stop to count the gratitude. They don't start to count the blessings that they actually have. I understand that you want to win more when they actually don't try to work to make other people successful as well. These are the great secrets of people. So number one, one of the things that drives tons of very successful but miserable strivers

is envy and comparison with others. That's a huge problem that they have. It's like, yeah, that's like, yeah, I got number two of the best cell list, but, you know, good old Jim over there. He got number one of New York best cell list, New York Times best cell list. So if I'm a loser, if I don't get that, and I'm going to wit myself until I get that next time, that will impel you, but it's misery that's impelling you. It's a very dangerous fuel that can actually lead to anxiety.

It often leads to clinical depressions and strivers, as a matter of fact. And you don't want that. That's bad stuff, man. That's a really bad situation. So what do you do? you make sure that when things are happening the way they are, including if you don't even like the rewards that you're getting, you stop to count your blessings.

You stop to count your blessings, and there's all kinds of ways to do it. I make a gratitude list on Sundays. I write down the five things I'm most grateful for. I look at it each night for five or six minutes. I update it on Sundays. It's very important. That's to override these striverly tendencies that we have.

The second is, I'm always looking for a way to help somebody else be more successful. Right. And so I'm thinking and it gives you enormous must of satisfaction, but if you forget to do that, you just won't. You'll be thinking about yourself all the time. So misery comes from excessive auto focus. Thinking about yourself, thinking about your film, thinking about yourself. When you find yourself striving and miserable at the same time, you're thinking about yourself too much. You got to get out of your own head. Number one, be grateful. Number two, help others. Wow. Okay. I sense that you have written about research is actually me search. And I think this probably applies to a lot of authors where you do this work because first and foremost, you've suffered from whatever it is you're trying to learn. And one of the ways that you then maybe help others is you're learning for yourself and realizing how helpful it is, let me share this with other people. So can you talk about this recent? research actually was me search. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, in social science in particular, nobody does work on things that that has no

personal relevance or salience or valence to them. You know, I mean, I guess you could. I mean, you could be assigned when you're working on your doctorate to write a dissertation on something by your advisor and that is not related to you at all. But when you're choosing your research agenda, you're answering questions that you want the answers to if you're a half decent social scientist. You know, years ago, I would do work on, you know, beauty and. art and stuff that I was really interested in, but it wasn't a problem for me. And I recognized that

the fact that happiness doesn't come easy to, you know, the Brooks family. I mean, we're a gloomy bunch, man, and add striver to that and you've got a noxious brew. I said, look, I have the tools. I have the tools to figure this out. My wife is like, use your PhD, man. You're, you got to, I mean, get your act together, man. You're helping other people with these other questions, but you're not answering the questions you actually need. And then when you start to focus on the things that you really need, then magic starts to happen because you're actually working for other people as well. And people can actually see how personal these things are and how relevant these things are. And so since I've been doing work on happiness, it's just amazing.

I've been focusing for years. I mean, the first book I wrote on happiness was in 2008. That's a long time ago at this point. But I've been focusing on it my whole career full time, nothing else for the past five years. And I have been amazed at how much my business has exploded. I mean, my courses are oversubscribed and the columns do really well and the books sell a lot. And I give 175 speeches a year about the science of happiness largely for business people. And the reason is because they want it and they know I care about it. 175 a year. Yeah, man.

You're like living on stage. I know. I mean, it's and again, this is not exactly evidence of a balanced lifestyle. I love it. I just love it. I mean, I'm going to Pittsburgh as soon as we hang up today. And then Chicago. So I actually did a Zoom speech on Friday about, and I got to ask this work-life balance question.

And, you know, I never fully know what to say because it's like I'm not that balanced either. There are moments where I am better. It's really about work-life integration, I think, and figuring that out. So what do you think about balance? When you're asked that question, which I'm sure you are, how it relates to happiness and family and being present. What's your response to the work-life balance question? So for me, I mean, looking at the research, not even as a personal matter, looking at the research, it's a problematic question. Because what that suggests is that your work and your life are different.

And I don't want that. I mean, when things are going well, I want work to be part of my life. What I don't want is to be nothing more. There's nothing more in my life. That's what we really want. I want a balanced portfolio of my Christian faith, my family life, my family life, my close. close friendships and my work. Those are the, that's my happiness 401 plan.

That's my portfolio is those four things. And I don't want to neglect one, two, and three. I can't neglect my faith. I can't neglect my family and I can't neglect my friendships. And so what that requires is an integration of these things. Now, I'm going to spend most of my time on my work. Time is short, man. I don't know how many years I've got left.

My dad died when he was just a little bit older than I am now, right? And I feel like I'm on a mission, an apostol. I feel like I have a holy, it's like the blues brothers. I'm on a mission from God, you know, that I, but I literally believe that I, that God wants me to bring as much happiness and love to the world using science and ideas as I possibly can. But I think God wants me to also to love my wife and my kids and now my grandkids. And God wants me to be a good friend and, and a good colleague and not to be selfish about

this. So what does that mean? That means I don't have to be like, I'm going to have this work life balance portfolio. What it means is that I'm going to make sure I have a certain set of times that I'm doing things that aren't work. That's what it comes down to. So I have rules. I'll give you an example of the rules that I have.

I don't travel on weekends for gigs. You can offer me a lot of money for a gig. And outside of maybe two or three weekends a year, I'm going to say no. And when I say yes, it's because my wife, you know, in the odd situation is like, yeah, I'll go. But normally she's like, no, I don't want to do that. I don't want to see you up on stage. I've got better things to do. And second, when I am home, you know, and I live in two places.

I live in Northern Virginia. I live in Boston, depending on what I'm teaching and that sort of thing. When I'm home, I don't take dinners outside. I don't do it because I eat dinner with my family. If my family's with me, I'll take dinners when I'm on the road for work. But if I'm with my family, I'm going to eat with my family. I'm not going to say, honey, I'll be home at eight. No, it's not going to happen.

And part of the reason is because they deserve it. But second, I want it. I want that love. And I know perfectly that I will, when I'm working at the margin, Clay Christensen at HBS, who's right about this, you know, the great author about, you know, how you value your life. He said that people do this marginal analysis all the time. We're like, ah, the 14th hour at the office or the first hour with my kids.

I'll take the 14th hour at the office because at the margin, it looks like it has something good in the future. If you think that marginal way, you'll make the decision over and over and over again. And I did. I did. When I was the CEO, I did. And they got revenge on me. They grew up. And I missed a lot of it.

And so now I've actually reformed to the extent that I don't make those decisions. And now I live with one of my grandkids. and it's pretty sweet. I love how you've set kind of guidelines for yourself. You're really thoughtful about it, not surprising. I'm going to shift to for a second because I was talking to one of my good friends earlier today because he's a big fan of yours. He built a business over the last 25 years from literally himself to a thousand employees.

He sold a majority stake within the past few weeks. Got wired an amount of money that will take care of many, many generations. High watering money, as they say. If he wants to, if that's what he chooses to do. Still the CEO, right? Private equity kind of came in and did their thing, which is happening a lot now. But I was curious for a guy like that who's built something from nothing, thousand people, right, responsible for those families' lives now because he employs them,

made an insane amount of money, is going to stay on. And I think from strength to strength, as well as your most recent book on happiness, could apply and could be helpful for a person like this. It's not necessarily relatable to most people, but he's a friend of mine, and I'm curious because I think it could apply even if we didn't sell our business and make $150 million. When you hear about a story like that, and this person is definitely a striver, right? Has done it for 25 years and has built an amazing thing and now is still doing it, right? It's not an old guy. When you think about happiness, when you think about going from strength to strength, when you think about like still striving, but also celebrating a little bit because of what you've accomplished, what would you.

you say to a person like that? Well, a lot of these situations differ because circumstances differ with respect to people's age and, and, you know, how engaged they are in their work. But the story that you're telling me is the story of somebody who is not working for money. The story you're telling me of somebody who is working out of passion and who wanted to be deeply, deeply wanted to be successful. And by the way, thank God for that. You know, I mean, thank God for the entrepreneurs who've done that. That's why the free enterprise system is the marvel of the world and America's gift to the world. Make no mistake, we should all be fighting for the free enterprise system.

It's so morally beautiful. But it doesn't protect the individual. I'm not talking about the customer. I'm talking about it. It doesn't protect the entrepreneur because, not because of the economy or because of marketing because of capitalism, but because of our brains. Mother Nature has wired us to think that if you win in the market, you'll be happy. Why?

Because Mother Nature only has two goals for Ryan and Arthur and your friend you're talking about, which is to survive and pass on your genes. And the way to survive and pass on your genes is to win with respect to resources like money and wealth, with position that has to do with power, with the admiration of strangers, with the ability to get people to to follow you. And so you make the incorrect connection that if those things that I naturally want, if I get them, then I'm going to be happy because I want to be happy because I want to. be happy too. That's wrong. That's actually not right. And so it takes lots of introspection. Now, I work with people all the time. We work with retired athletes. I work with people who had fabulous careers in Hollywood and are stepping back because they were unhappy or because, you know, their marriages were melting down and they're, they feel hollow when they're no longer in the hunt. Now let's talk about what happens there. When you're

in the hunt and it's working, when you're getting kill after kill after, you're dragging in a lot of gazelles. What that does is that gives you a neurochemical framework that says you're a winner. You know when you're a winner because you have to know where you are in human hierarchies. We're akin-based hierarchical species. We're not going to get away from the brain that we built in the place to scene. And that leads to these neural modulators that tell us you're winning, you're winning, you're winning, and it's great. Once you've won and you're doing it just because it's kind of what I've always done, but you're not winning anymore. You already won. there's nothing else to win, at least for now, it changes your but your neurochemistry in ways

that will literally provoke a clinical depression. And so I'll find these guys that, you know, they work at Goldman Sachs and they're making a, you know, just train loads of money and they're really successful. And they retire at 49 with $400 million. And then within the first six months, they have a deep tan and they're having an affair with their tennis coach. And, and their marriage is falling apart. And they're like, I don't know what I'm doing. And everybody's like, congratulations. They're like, I don't know, I feel like garbage. What's going on, man? I say, serotonin. I can tell you what's going on. I could do, you know, I could scan your brain. I can tell you what's going on. But fundamentally, what's happened is that you, you, sorry, you won.

And what that did was it made you feel irrelevant at that point. Okay, so here's the point. You can't get your relevance from getting back to the very adroit comment you made a minute ago, which was about extrinsic motivations. Extrinsic motivations are the rewards that come from the world. They come in four categories, money, power, pleasure, and fame. Fame also includes prestige or the admiration of other people. Those are the extrinsic rewards of life. Everything is related to those four rewards.

If you're seeking your happiness through those rewards, you're going to be bitterly disappointed. They're not bad. They're just incomplete. You need to start looking for your happiness in faith, or life philosophy, if you're not religious, family, friendship, and that means real friends, strivers, not deal friends. And every striver should know the difference. And last but not least, serving other people with the way you use your ideas and hard work and brilliance. Now,

when you sell your company, it means it's you better have a basis of these other intrinsic rewards. You better have relationships on point. Don't sell your company if your relationships are not on point and sooner or later you're going to have to retire so you got to get that that together and you have to find a way to continue to lift other people up with your work that that's what you need to do and that's how I wind up coaching people with real real life strategies etc I think it's really important Arthur to write down what you believe is your life purpose and I think it was you were 55 and I or you could call it a mission statement and you said, I dedicate my work to lifting people up and bringing them together in bonds

of love and happiness using science and ideas. And I think the critical part about a purpose or a life mission statement is that it involves positively impacting others. As you said, that's one of the ways to generate happiness is because like sometimes when I'm not happy, it's because I'm too focused on myself and not thinking about lifting others up, not being great. grateful for the good things, not trying to help others succeed. In my life's purpose, I sat down with a coach and actually map this out, is to inspire others to value and pursue excellence, to value. I think too many of us are okay with mediocrity. So I want to inspire people by my actions, by how I show up for you to value and pursue excellence, excellence, the gradual result of always striving to do better, striver, right?

But I think when I see that impacting others, whether it's through emails, out to the side of the stage after a speech or, you know, people you see when you're together in person, friends, whatever, that is a, it's almost an intoxicating feeling because you see the impact you're having on other people and the potential ripple effect that has beyond just that individual you're talking to. And so that's why I think it is very useful to define write down your life's purpose, why you're here, what you're striving to do. and it almost it has to it has to be something to do with positively impacting other people i feel like that is your stuff man like that is what you're all about totally and that you know it's a it's the basic moral lesson you get from any major world religion any nutritious life philosophy and by the way all of the best science on human motivation yet here's the problem we're not wired to do it and the reason is because mother nature doesn't wire us to do the things that that are in the long-term interest of our happiness because she doesn't care. She doesn't care.

If you do what you're left to your devices to do, you're in trouble. You're absolutely interested. You're going to pursue pleasure. I say that's what actually, here's how you figure out what you tend to do. Everybody tends to do something slightly different. I have my students at the Harvard Business School. I have only MBA. I only teach MBA students.

And I have 180 of them a year. I have 400 in the waiting list for this happiness class. And one of the things that I do is. is I play a game called What's My Idol? To find out what your primary extrinsic motivation is that you'll always chase when you're weak and that will always lead you to do things that you regret later. So the things that you regret that you've done always link back to your idol. So let's want to play What's My Idol?

Ryan, want to find out your idol? Let's do it. Let's do this. I got a little nervous for a second, dude. Come on, man. We can do this in front of 250,000 of our closest friends. Okay. Okay.

Okay. All right. So remember the four, the four things, the four extrinsic motivations I talked about before, money, power, pleasure, and honor. Where honor means admiration or fame. If you're like an Instagram guy that's having a lot of followers. But for most people listening to us, it's not that. It's actually having the admiration of people who matter. Okay.

So those are the things. Now, I didn't make up that list. That list actually comes from Aristotle via St. Thomas Aquinas in the year 1265, who said that these are, in his view, these are the substitutes for God. They have godlike characteristics. They're so powerful, but they're not God. Okay. So now for me, studying neuroscience and social science, it's an exhaustive list of the basic extrinsic motivations that we get that leave us unsatisfied.

And so these are the idols. And that's why we play this game. Okay, now I'm not going to ask you which is your idol because that's too hard. It's also not accurate. Here's how you get at it. Think of the four. Okay, you got them in your head. Money.

Power. pleasure honor you got to get rid of one okay now this is going to be the easiest question because this is the one you really of the four you care about the least maybe you don't even like that much that you don't generally pursue kick one away power yeah how come i mean i can i can i can guess why but i want you to tell me um i i don't i don't know i this is not something i really strive for i i i need to think about this more, but it's just the first one that came to mind of like, I don't, I mean, I want to influence people in a positive way. So like, is that power? Like, I don't know. Okay. Okay. Power is you say jump, they say how high. Right, right. Like,

I don't, I love like working on a team, but I don't need to be in charge of the team. Like, I, in fact, I want to work with people who are like I would want to work for, you know, more so or at least work together. So power is like I don't necessarily care. So why, so answer me this. Why don't you, why haven't you ever had a nine to five? I have had a nine to five. Well, why don't you have a nine to five? Why don't you strive for a nine to five? Oh, I, I, I enjoy agency over my calendar or what I get to do over having a conversation with Arthur Brooks, whenever we can, you know, that type of thing. So you don't want anybody to have power over you. Right. Basically. And if you don't want anybody to have power over you,

you don't want to have power over others unless you're a psychopath. and you're not. So therefore, that's why power is the one that. It's not that it's not an idol. It's actually an anti- idol. Okay, now, okay, so we got three left. Money, pleasure, and admiration or fame or prestige or honor. Okay, so you've got to kick another one away and it's going to get harder.

Which one do you get rid of next? Can you define pleasure for me real quick? I'm not saying that's the one I'm choosing. Feels good, baby. Feels good. Just an animal thing. Feels good. And it might be, you know, the compliments that you get, it might be a bump of cocaine.

You choose your, you choose your own pleasure. I'll remove money. All right. How come? I need enough of it to support my family. And I've learned that, like, lucky to also have a very, a wife who doesn't, doesn't need a ton of money. She's not a big spender. No, no, no.

And grew up, you know, very, very modest. And I think is appreciates, we do well, but I would say that's probably next. So you have probably figured out at this point being financially independent that money, there's not that much great stuff you can get with money. It's not that much fun. I mean, it's like first class is better than coach. Private is better than first class. But the higher up you go, the more marginal the differences are seven cars. No, it's just garage space.

Having a huge staff. Are you kidding? What a headache. It's just an HR problem. And so this is a common thing. Okay. But now, now it's getting hot in here, man. Because you've got pleasure and you've got honor and you've got to get rid of one of them.

That doesn't mean you never get it. It just means that's not a pursuit anymore. So the honor thing, like I'm not a really, I'm actually a terrible Instagram influencer. I'm not one of those. I don't do that very well. I try to post learn for me content, not look at me content. Yeah. But, but.

But if you gain some prestige, you get a chance to really impact people in a positive way, which is my purpose for being here. So in a way, that's important. If you had it, as a basic pursuit, would you get rid of pleasure today or, you know, the eye is an admiration of others? Well, so if you live by an intrinsic scoreboard, then you don't need. the eyeballs and admiration of others, but the prestige can help you impact more people. So this is like a weird dichotomy. So like, what do you think about that? Like when I say it,

because I've worked really hard. I've hired a coach, like multiple people to define my core values, my purpose, the critical behaviors to be aligned with those core values and to live them out to try to eliminate envy, right, by working inward and working on myself as much as possible so that I could possibly impact other people. So like, how does that apply to prestige and impacting others in a positive way? that sounds to me like you've been able to take your idol and use it as a source of good, that your main idol and use it as a source of good, largely to use it as a source of good. But you understand here, that also means that in your weakest moments, that that's something

you could easily chase. You're not, you don't sound to me like a pleasure guy at all. You don't sound to me like you guys like, are you kidding me? I'm going to kick back and I'm going to go floating across the pool and less instead of doing something on my business. No, no, no, no, dude striver. Right. And so what you've told me is that basically you understand the idol. You're managing it really well. You're using it as a source of good.

But in your weak moments, that's the one you always have to watch. Because you want people to like Ryan. You want people to follow Ryan. And for the good of them, for the good of them. But also, there is a motivation behind that. And that's common. If it weren't common, Aristotle wouldn't have written about it. That's very common.

And by the way, this is a very common thing. Me too. I hate power. I don't care about money. I was going to say, what are you? So let's hear this. Okay, okay, let's do you. It's me.

You did me. The same? Exactly same. Exactly the same. If I'm in my weakest moments, I want this. And so I try to use it as a force for good. But the point is that when I'm not paying attention, it can lead me astray. can betray me. And that's the important thing to keep in mind because otherwise it'll be like,

oh yeah, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to go for the maximum amount of money. Of course, I'm not going to. Yay me. But at the same time, I want, you know what? I want people to like Arthur Brooks a little bit too much, a little bit too much. And that's not a good motivation because that kind of leads you to shade the way you say things sometimes. And you've got to watch that. I mean, I'm getting pretty good at it. You're obviously really good at it. But you're going to have to watch it always. because they can get away from you. If Oprah Winfrey called me and said my stuff made her life a lot better and then said, hey, by the way, can I write a book with you?

I mean, first of all, like, fall over and not, and be like, this is a prank call. But that actually happened to you. How does that not like make your head be so big you can't walk out of that room? Well, to begin with, I'm married to a Spanish woman who's very good at reminding me that I'm not important, you know? And the second thing is that, you know, this is the basis of my religious faith is all glory to God. All glory to God. Any opportunity that I've got, it's because God wants me to do something with it. And that's a very good. And I have a sort of a series of checks and balances that lead to it. Because, I mean, there have been lots of times when I look at, by the way, people who have a high honor motivation, they tend to be naturally envious.

And that doesn't mean you're driven by envy, but you'll tend to look at somebody else and go, are you? kidding me that book was number one that book was number one you know that kind of thing right or that that guy's show is number it's the number one podcast or you are you are you putting me up oh man people are so stupid that that's a form of of envy right but that's a that's the second cousin to the honor motivation that we get which is a pride problem and so you need to have checks and balances for pride you know when the none of us is roman emperor but when the roman emperors would be you know coming back to Rome after a victorious military campaign in Gaul, driving their captives before them down the streets of Rome, in their chariot, there would be a slave. And the slave had one job

which is to whisper, remember, you too are just a man like any other. And so it's important that you surround yourself because, you know, if you work hard, you play by the rules, you're smart, you have personal merit responsibility and you're a striver. I mean, welcome to America, baby. you're going to have success, not every single day, but you're going to enjoy the fruits of your labor because that's what free enterprise is dedicated to doing is to rewarding Ryan Hawk. And you need the little guy behind you saying, remember Ryan, you two are just a man, and even better if it's, you know, the Lord and your wife. Let's follow up on that, though, when it comes to writing with Oprah, like how did that whole

thing come about? I mean, did she contact you and said, I want to write a book together? Like, how did this happen? So, yeah, so during the coronavirus epidemic, I started my column in the Atlantic, which comes out every Thursday morning on The Science of Happiness. And that was pursuant to starting my class at HBS, which started right before the coronavirus epidemic. So I was writing this column who's getting a lot of readers.

And when you have 500,000 readers a week, you don't know. You know who they are, you know? And it turned out that Oprah was a religious reader of a column while she was locked down in her place in California. She didn't leave her house in California once for her estate for two years, as a matter of fact. And it's a big place. It's a nice place. But still, I mean, everybody was locked down.

I mean, it was locked down. And people were looking for ways to grow and to learn. And she's an incredibly well-balanced person who uses everything as an opportunity all the way throughout her life. And so she started reading my call and paying a whole lot of attention to it. And then when my book, From Strength the Strength the Strength came out, in a poster of it right behind me. But you've read it. And she read it on the first day and called me up.

This is Oprah Winfrey. And I'm like, yeah, this is Batman. It turned out, of course, it was Oprah Winfrey. It was the voice. And she said, I read from Strength to Strength and I read your columns. And we started talking about something we might do together. And we did her podcast, her Super Soul podcast, which is about books together. She's so brilliant.

It's such a great reader. And she's so insightful. She was in that podcast quoting me from my book by memory. and you know yeah she had read it once it's it's amazing and then we hit it off like a house on fire i mean she's awesome we did a couple of other things and then she said what if you know i don't have a show if i did i'd have you on 30 times i'd kind of launch you into the american discussion through the show and i'm like you mean like dr phil anyway and uh she's kind of and i'm like okay and then she said but i don't have a show so how about if i host a book that we write together so i'm kind of

the host and you're the guest and you're you're bringing all this expertise and so we cooked it up I went to her place and and we spent a bunch of time together and then I moved out to California for six weeks while I was writing a big part of the book and we were passing chapters back and forth and that was the book Build a Life You Want which came out in in September of 2023. What was it like? I mean sending drafts back and forth with Oprah. I mean she's right. She's smart. She's nice. I mean, I've learned some. I've learned some. much from Oprah, I got to tell you, as a happiness specialist, you know, one thing to read studies, is something else to look at somebody who's literally one of the five most famous people in the

world and who has equanimity. The reason being, by the way, she's the striver striver. She has striven over the years is that she's the same person in every part of her life. The thing that really cognitively disequilibrates a striver when they start to see worldly success is they're a different person in public than they are in private. You're bifurcating. You're bifurcating. your personality, which is something that's really deleterious to your mental health. And so what you'll find is that anxiety and depression come to people when they're trying to be one person in private and one person in public. And they'll get really stressed out in public as a result of not being who they are.

And then they'll go home and kick the dog and yell at their spouse and wreck their marriage. So the way to actually be successful and be rewarded to be successful is to be the same person in public as you are in private. And Oprah literally does that. So I've worked with her in public. We've toured together. I've seen her since I was a young man in her public life, and I have spent time with her at just the two of us at dinner. She's the same person. She's literally the same person. It's the greatest integrity, and it is such an

incredible gift that she has and a gift that she gave to me to strive to be that kind of integrated person as well. I have just unvarnished admiration for Oprah Winfrey. Are you that way now, too, or at least more so than you were prior to meeting her? I am. I hope. I mean, you've asked me a lot of serious questions that I've tried to answer them with complete honesty. And part of the reason is because I have no reason. I mean, I have a, it's a big mistake for me to start putting on errors because what I'm going to do is I'm going to create a gap between who I am and who I appear to be. Oprah says, don't do it. Her life. Don't put on what? I'm sorry. Would you say it? Put on errors. I mean, to act like I'm something that I'm actually not. Okay. Yeah. So how to, but like, I think that's probably a common. problem with people and it's maybe hard to get to that point. Maybe it takes years, life reps,

experience, adversity, all of the above. What about for someone who's a bit earlier in their life and they want to get to that point? I view it also as being very comfortable in your own skin. You know who you are. You've done self-reflective work that never stops. So you understand purpose, values, critical behaviors, alignment with all of that. So when you show up to a place, you just are, you it doesn't really matter who's there or what you're doing what you're doing you're just you and i know a few of those people my life some who are really good at that and some who probably are not right and i feel like the ones who are good of it are in a constant state of being thoughtful people of journaling of being grateful of thinking about who they are their purpose and what they want to be that's that's what

seems to lead to that like contentness and comfort in their own skin yeah no i agree with that and there's a there's a there's a there's a hack so if you're young and that's happening and a lot of people listening to us are very successful in their companies and rising in the ranks and and and they want to be one person at work and they find they're a different person at home um don't lie ever don't lie ever don't lie i mean and and if you if if you feel like you have to you have to lie about something it means you've made a wrong decision to rectify that decision so that everything that you think and say could be aired in public. That means no secret life, no, nothing that you're hiding from your family, nothing that you're telling one group that you're not telling somebody else.

And that's an incredible privilege to live that way. The way to do that is to, is to live a life that is, that's impeccable in both public and private, and then never lie to anybody. The parenting advice for kids, like, you know, you want to know why it's good not to lie? because if you if you always tell the truth, then you never have to remember anything, right? You just say the truth. And it's funny the way like to simplify it as if you're telling your nine-year-old. And these are conversations we have at home. It's like if you just always tell the truth, you never have to remember anything.

If you have like random lies or random fake stories like, oh, wait, what did I say? What don't I have to remember? And that is exhausting. And that is a way to not live an authentic life. Absolutely. And it's also not a way to live a loving life towards yourself and other. people. It's an act of profound disrespect to yourself to be prevaricating, to be saying things that aren't true. People lie for different reasons, of course. Some people lie to protect themselves.

Some people lie to puff themselves up. And some people lie to protect others. Now, lying to protect others is kind of a special case. Even as a biblical case, what should you do if the Gestapo shows up at your door and says, do you have Jews in the basement and you do? Right. And like, okay, I got it. Or if your wife says, this is making me look fat, don't be an idiot, Ryan. I mean, I got it, right? But the really dangerous things are when we're allowing to protect ourselves or to puff ourselves up. That's hugely disrespectful to yourself and other people. It's an act of it sabotages the love that you have for the world.

By the way, though, Arthur, on the comment about the clothes, okay? So I've had this conversation. It's funny with how many people we've talked about, does this make me look fat? Okay. I think there is a way to be fully honest and not be a mean person. Right. So it's, I like the other pants. I like the way you look in the other pants a little bit better. Yeah. I like that. And so I'm still honest. And she knows that I'm going to also tell her the truth so that my word still means something. Because if you lie to your spouse and you tell them like, no way. Or even if they look better in something else, then they don't know if they can. believe you and I want her to always know that she can believe me and that goes for other people too but so it's like

i'm not going to lie but i'm not going to be mean but i will say like i actually like really like the other ones the way you look and the other ones better and i think that way you maintain credibility this goes beyond just that conversation that's skillful it's a way to maintain credibility so that you can be honest with each other right yeah yeah i don't know like i look bad in something though i want her to tell me the truth yeah no no of course i understand that and um it's it's it's It's funny because the dynamics of every marriage are different. You know, and my wife will say, how do I look at this? I'll say, you look smoking hot.

And she'll be like, liar. Wait, do you say it though if she doesn't or does she just always look smoking? No, she always looks smoking hot. I'm not going to lie to you. I'm a shallow man. But yeah, but you know, good for you. But it's also, it's a, it's really important to, I know, it's like one of us aged a lot better than the other. That's all right.

Can I ask you a completely random question? Yeah, yeah. I thought this the second we connected. Dude, you're jacked in like really good shape. What do you do? Well, I work out every day. And this is the key. So I do a lot of stuff with Peter Attia and a lot of people who are in the longevity and fitness space.

Just because since I've been doing what I'm doing, I'm kind of like the happiness guy that goes on everybody else's fitness and personal development podcast. And so, you know, I can't look all dumpy when I'm getting on the. these pedigular podcasts to be perfectly vain about it. But more importantly, what I've learned over the years as a scientist is that the number one way that you can be, that number of you can, you can, you can attenuate your unhappiness, taking care of your body won't help your happiness, but it will lower your unhappiness. And I have a very high negative affect level. The number one way that you can do that, the healthiest way that you can do that is by beating yourself up every single day. Second, I'm always trying to work my brain chemistry optimally so that I have three hours a day of unmitigated creativity.

And I know the way to do that. The best way to do that is to get up an hour and a half before dawn. That's called the Brahma Mahurta and Sanskrit, meaning the creator's time in Vedic wisdom. But modern neuroscience shows that if you get up while it's still dark, you're going to have greater creativity and focus for the rest of the day. beat yourself up while not trying to tax your, you know, your cognitive abilities while doing it. In other words, don't listen to neuroscience lectures while you're lifting. Besides, you won't understand what's going on because every time your blood pressure fluctuates, you won't be able to understand what you're hearing.

So lift. I'm talking about serious resistance training and high intensity cardio. You know, get with a trainer if you don't know how to do it. And delay your caffeine consumption until after that. Then after that is when I do my prayers. I go to Mass every day. I'm a Catholic. So I go to Mass every day at 6.30. By 7.15, I'm home. Then I have a whole bunch of psychostimulant in terms of caffeine. And then I get three uninterrupted hours of pure

creativity. So the reason that I try to stay in really good physical shape is, number one, I know that that's the secret to maintaining a life with the lowest possible level of negative affect while not having unintended side effects that you get from workaholism or alcohol use. Second is I want maximum creativity and the best that I can actually get out of my brain. And so I have to sequence things in the right way. Wow. So you're just super intentional about your body and mind every day. It's ritualized.

It's your routine. And that is it's amazing how that consistency of routine leads to sustained excellence over time. I know we've got to run in a second. But the other thing that because some people say, oh, my God, man, that would be that would get old or I'd be tired of doing the same thing every day. But you also have moved a lot. I was when I was reading and learning more about you. You and your wife have like, let's go. Like you'll move. You'll leave the state. You'll go somewhere else. You'll live somewhere else. You've moved quite a bit.

20 times in 35 years. 20 times, like 20 moves in 35 years. Why do you guys move so much? We go when it's actually time to find new opportunities. And, you know, sometimes we'll go because, you know, for example, in 2019, I retired, I was a CEO. I'd lived in that place for 10 years. And then we moved to Boston because I became a professor at Harvard and we had three moves in five years. And sometimes it'll be to kind to keep the family more centrally located, for example. But the whole point is there's a reason for doing it. It's not just that the rent came to or I'm in the witness protection program. It has something has more to do with there. There's a place that we feel like we need to be. And we're really good

of moving. And I think this idea that some of the novelty helps you remember your life more. Matthew Dix talked about this in Homework for Life. You've got to document your days, but also the novelty, Scott Belski also on this podcast about creating time when they're like memorable, different or hard events, that helps you remember it more. Yeah. I mean, there's a, there's some cognitive theories that suggest that when you live in a particular place, you remember the first and last years very intensely, and all the years in the middle get kind of squished into one year. So I suppose that the effect of elongating the cognitive impact of your life is maximized. If you move every three years on average, I don't know.

And we haven't given it that particular much thought. Now, there's a cost, you know, there's a cost, which is that when you're not geographically located, there's a sense of not being anywhere. And that's real. My brother has lived in the town that we grew up in, about five blocks on the house that we grew up in, his whole adult life. And, you know, he likes his neighbors and he gets a lot of benefit from that. So you have to realize that there are benefits to it. And, you know, I like the cowboy lifestyle, man.

Like pull up stakes, go, baby. And my wife is the same way, thank God. But it's not, it's not costless. Got you. One more thing before we run. You're meeting one of your students, okay, graduates. student at a big time university and they finish and they go out into the world and they're not still not 100% sure what they want to do but they do want to leave a dent right a positive

dent in the world they want to make a difference in a good way what are some general pieces of life slash career advice you give to that person so the the two most important things to do to make a dent in it is number one don't worry too much about the first thing that you're doing because you're going to change a lot right so that that's that's the predicate to if you're like I got to get the perfect first job. Gotta get the perfect first job, right? Another thing is don't do something where you're going to sacrifice

your ability to have relationships. And so don't take 110 hours in an investment bank. Five years from now, you think you want to have a wife and kids or a husband and kids. And by the way, cheat code, that's what you want. That's what you want if you're actually going to be a happier person.

Then when you're in a job, you're going to make the perfect job. You're not going to find the perfect job. And you're trying to do two things. bring love to every relationship you possibly can. Number one. Number two, be excellent. Be great at what you do.

Great at what you do. Why? Because what will attract all the good things to the world to you is that you emanate love and you show excellence. Those are the two things people want to be around, man. It's not that they want to be around money and they want to be. Why? All those worldly idols, all they are are markers.

for the things that we're talking about. Go for the real things that will attract all of the blessings of the world to you, which is love and excellence. Love it, man. Oh, my God. So good. Build the life you want. The art and science of getting happier.

The book you wrote with Oprah, highly recommend. And then from Strength, the Strength, you have more books too. But from Strength to Strength, Find a Success, Happiness and Deep Purpose in the second half of life, two are the most recent ones I've read that have impacted me the most and my friends, Arthur Brooks, dude. I really, really appreciate the work you put out in the world. It was awesome. I'm getting a chance to talk with you. Thank you so much, man.

Thank you, Ryan. Thanks for the work that you're doing. Lifting people up. I really, I mean, you and I share a strong mission. Stay at it. Let's do it, man. Thank you, man. Appreciate it. Thanks. Bye. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learning leader.com. Let me know what you learn from this great conversation with Arthur Brooks. A few takeaways from my notes, the four idols, money, power, pleasure, and prestige slash. fame. I was caught a little bit off guard, but enjoyed the fact that we talk through what mine are,

or what are my anti-idels and worked our way into understanding what's most important. I'd be curious to hear what yours are. Then converse that with the four things that bring contentment to your life, faith, family, friendship, and serving others. That goes, I think, along with defining your purpose. I believe that your purpose should always include how you want to positively impact and serve others. Mine is, quote, to inspire others to both value and pursue excellence. What is your purpose? And then misery comes from excessive auto focus. Never heard it that way before, but essentially misery comes when you're thinking too much about yourself, when you're too selfish, when you're not.

when you're not others oriented enough. We should be thinking more about how we could love, support, and help other people. Just like Arthur said at the end of our conversation, emanate love and show excellence in all that you do. So good. Once again, I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two. Hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Arthur Brooks. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that

And you also go to Apple Podcasts and Spotify and you subscribe to the show. You rate it, hopefully five stars, and you write a thoughtful review. By doing all of that, you are continually giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talking soon. Can't wait.