The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 631: Bert Bean & Sam Kaufman - Obsession, Grit, Growth-Mindset, Winning in a Tough Market, Hiring for Potential, Running Ultra-Marathons, and Caring For Your People

Episode Date: April 20, 2025

The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk Go to www.LearningLeader.com for full show notes This is brought to you by Insight Global. If you need to hire 1 person, hire a team of people, or transform your business through Talent or Technical Services, Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world have the hustle and grit to deliver. www.InsightGlobal.com/LearningLeader Bert Bean is the CEO of Insight Global. Insight Global is a 4.3-billion-dollar, industry-leading talent and technical services firm based in Atlanta, GA. Bert started with Insight Global in 2005 as a Recruiter and has since worked his way up within the company, exemplifying Insight Global's "promote from within" culture. Sam Kaufman is the Chief Revenue Officer of Insight Global. Sam began his career as an entry-level recruiter in 2004, and he has earned many promotions throughout his career. I initially started working with Sam as his executive coach in March 2020, and then mid-2021, we formalized a bigger partnership with Insight Global, becoming the presenting sponsor of The Learning Leader Show, and we broadened my role working with leaders throughout the company. It's been so much fun. Notes Insight Global is a $4.3B business. Insight Global grew 9.2% last year, while the industry declined 9%. How is Insight Global winning while all other staffing firms are losing? A lot of companies will succumb to the idea that it's just gonna be a bad year, but our people are like, no, we'll just figure it out. We'll pivot. We'll move industries. We'll change accounts, we'll change our focus. We'll sell different services. And that's really what we've done. "Many in our industry are losing hope. That's not us. This is where we thrive." "Our people's ability to show up, keep going, um, do new things, evolve, is really, I think it's second to none. And that's been a huge part of our story." The whole world is soft. We love leaders like Laura Downey. She's so driven, so hardcore. A beast. She's in Canada. She just reaches right out to me like we're old friends. If I could get a bunch of Laura Downey's, it's game over. Obsession: A through-point for the entire conversation was obsession. Being obsessed with caring for people. Being obsessed with doing hard things like running 20 miles to work. Being obsessed with how prepared you are for a big meeting. Being obsessed with your standards. Holding yourself accountable to them and others. The leaders who sustain excellence over time are obsessed with their craft. Potential over experience - "If you want to build a culture of commitment and care, you have to choose potential over experience." Things to look for when promoting a leader: Hard decision making Strategic bets Simplifying complex problems  "The most important skill as a CEO is getting to the truth. It's really hard because it's really scary. Normal humans find every excuse not to deal with harsh truths." ­-- Ben Horowitz The baseball on Bert's desk from the Atlanta Braves is an example of what not to do. The overall brand of Sam Kaufman = CARE Hiring in India - One of our folks that's doing the interviews asks this individual if, if they want a bottle of water, gives 'em a bottle of water, and this person says, wow, of all the places I've been to interview, nobody's offered me a single drink of water or treated me like a human being. Bert:  I grew up in a small town in Alabama and was a very average kind of kid. But my mom was always like, you can do anything you want. Don't ever let somebody tell you you can't. You can be you, you can be the fastest runner in the world if you want. Sam: I get in here at 5:30 every day because I have a couple thousand people that started where I started, and I am obsessed with the idea that they should have the best career ever. Bert: I think a lot of people don't ever get a chance to suffer on their own terms. Yeah. You know, like to, to enter the pain cave on their own terms. And that's a really cool thing to, to step into that and to figure out, all right, do you have the stuff or do you not? You know? And I think all of us deep down are afraid to answer that question. I just gotta know if I can do it. I have to know that. I like that challenge. I put in the work, I put in the training. And then when you do it, you're like, I knew I had that in me, and it just is so reassuring to me. Bert: I love a sense of accomplishment. I love a sense of accomplishment. Uh, I love that I can do something hard. I've always, you know, I lived in Yellowstone National Park for a summer in college, so I fell in love with the American West and I loved seeing mountains and being like, why can't I just stand on that? Sam: The last couple years, I've spent a few hours kind of every morning working what I need to be talking about and what does my voice sound like? And through the course of a couple years of working on it now, I gotta run a call with a couple thousand people this afternoon, and it's like, oh, I'll just go do that next because I'm, I'm ready for that. Sam: I'm a person they can count on when they need them. And that's what sales really is. And that's what sales will teach you. And so for, you know, for my organization, if I want my people to see that, I want them to learn that. Bert's Tattoo – Be The Light

Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Text Hawk to 666866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week all right. You'll also receive details about how our book, The Score That Matters. will help you become a more effective leader tech talk to 666866.

Now on to tonight's featured leaders. Burt Bean is the CEO of Insight Global. Insight Global is a $4.3 billion industry leading talent and technical services firm based in Atlanta, Georgia. Bert started with Insight Global in 2005 as a recruiter and has since worked this way up within the company, exemplifying Insight Globals promote from within culture. In addition to Burt, we have Sam Kaufman. Sam as the chief revenue officer of Insight Global. Sam began his career also as an entry-level recruiter in 2004, and he has earned many promotions all the way up to CRO. I initially started working with Sam as his executive coach in March 2020. And then mid-2020, we formalized a much bigger partnership with the Learning Leader Show and Insight Global, becoming the presenting sponsor of

this podcast. And we've also broadened my role working within the company with many of the leaders. It's been so much fun. During this conversation, which we recorded in person and Bert's office in Atlanta, some of the topics we cover, how Insight Global grew 9% in 2024 while the staffing industry declined 9%. So essentially, how is Insight Global winning while all of its competitors are losing? Then we talked a lot about obsession and the importance of caring deeply about your people and your work. Then we went into culture, growth, expanding the business worldwide, lowering attrition rates, and the key attributes they look for when promoting a leader. We covered that and so much more.

Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Bert Bean and Sam Kaufman. All right, Bert, I thought the obvious place to start is the fact that Sam is a pickleball player. Could you ever have believed that? I could have, yeah, I could have. I could have not. Just a couple years ago, I was asking him about it, and he started making fun of me, and I'm not even a pickleball player, and all of a sudden, now he's, like, obsessed. Well, that's the problem. You say something stupid, you're automatically going to end up doing it.

That's how it goes. Sam is, I don't want to say, I don't, I'm not trying to be ugly, but he is like sneaky athletic. He's like very, why sneaky? You would not look at me and expect him, but I come out of nowhere. He's a college athlete, soccer player. 20 years ago, you'd look at me and be like, well, maybe, but now you look at me and be like, probably not.

He's a great tennis. We were at a compass. We played tennis, and he was the best player there. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to beat him and struggled. We had a, we had an worst trip. It was an amazing trip that we called Titan is for.

50 people who most embody our five shared values as a company. Anybody can win it. You got to be nominated by your peers. And we send you to Hawaii. And that trip was last week. And Sam and I were there. And Sam had a pickleball tournament. How do you say that word tournament again?

It's a tournament. Tournament. He doesn't say it that way. He says it some other way. No, it's a you say tournament. I would argue T-O-U-R is said. Tournament. Yeah.

So anyway, he has his pickleball tournament. And he's so excited he wins. And he beats guy. We won't say any names, but he does beat certain men in front of their families. I felt bad about that. He didn't. Of course not. I did.

I did feel bad about that. There was like a son there that was like, come on, dad, you got it. And Sam beat him in front of his son. He took his shirt off. That's signals we're competing. Well, that is true. In all seriousness, though, I am very curious about how Insight Global is winning while it seems like everybody else in the industry is losing.

I'm going to make sure these numbers are right. So Inside Global grows, $4.3 billion company grows 8.7% last year while the industry declined 9%. I was going over my notes. We grew 9.2%. Okay. Okay. Sorry.

9.2% industry. They're really bad at last year. But seriously, I was going through my notes with my wife and she's like, wait a second, how in the world did that happen? I said, great question. So how did that happen? Let's hear from, I'd love to hear from both. Let's hear from our chief revenue officer. Here we go.

Well, I would say our people are incredible. And I would say a lot of companies in the face of adversity, if their strategy is or if their market is not right, I think it's just a lot of companies will succumb to the idea that like, well, I guess it's just going to be a bad year. But our people are like, no, we'll just figure it out. We'll pivot. We'll move industries. We'll change accounts. We'll change our focus. We'll sell different services.

And that's really what we've done. We've evolved our entire business and the offering that we have for our clients. We went international. We offered new services to our clients than we've ever had built or sold before. And our people have been effective doing it. So I would just say our people's ability, you know, we always celebrate grit as one of, you know, the things that we value most inside the company. Our people's ability to show up, keep going, do new things, evolve is really, I think it's second to none. And that's been a huge part of our story.

What do you think? Yeah, I would also just, you know, from a mindset standpoint, from the sea levels down to our newest recruiters. Failure is not an option of this company. It just isn't. We definitely believe that we are here to win and we're here to dominate. And look, yeah, the industry did go backwards,

roughly 8 to 10% or so our market did. But our total addressable market is still two, three hundred billion and we're measly 4.3 billion of that. So even if the market declines 10%, you still got a lot more billions to go after. And that's our mindset. We're like, well, there's still other people out there doing business, so why not

that just be us? Really? When he talks about the market like that, it takes away a lot of my excuses around why we can't grow up. There's so much out there to get, dude. Just go get it. We're doing all right. He's like, no, you're not.

Got it. Got it. Keep going. One of the areas of expansion, though, you talked about going international, and I love the story about India. And the turnover, though, for companies who decide to hire over there, apparently, is 27% for people from American companies who hire us. over there. Yet Insight Global's turnover in India, if I believe it, is 4%. Again, how are you doing this?

Yeah, I would say, you know, the number one thing that we thought about when considering expanding was how will we bring our values in our culture somewhere else? Because that is, it's a little hard to say, well, this is working here in, you know, North America. Is that going to resonate with people? But I think like a good learning that we've had is like when you just show up and care for people first. I think that resonates everywhere. And so, you know, we're not building an offshore facility for our customers to be low cost. We're building it to really provide our services. And there's an incredible amount of technical, capable people that, like, in India, I mean, the training there is exceptional in terms of technical development. So we were like,

we have to go there to get the global talent that all of our customers need and to take great care of these people. And I think that that philosophy is one that we're trying to bring to as many of our customers as possible because it just, it really is, you can still show up and take care of people no matter where they are. And it still be something where there's savings there because just domestically that the economy is different. Tell the bottle of the water story. You tell it. No, no, no. Go on. You love it. You love it. Well, okay. So, fine. I mean, I do think it is indicative. It's a small, little example, but it's indicative of us trying to show up with who we are with our values.

And that is, this is, so we're over there doing, interviewing all these new hires that are going to work in our center in Hyderabad. And so we got all these candidates coming in. And they've been interviewing with us and kind of everywhere. And during the day, one of our folks that's doing the interviews asked this individual if, if they want a bottle of water, gives them a bottle of water. And this person says, well, of all the places I've been to interview, nobody's offered me a single drink of water or treated me like a human being. And I just, yeah, I'm really thirsty and I really appreciate that. So thank you. I'm not used to companies treating us that way here. And that is something that we've noticed is that a lot of companies will go to India. They'll pay people

below the poverty line. I mean, it's just they're doing it for reasons just to try to provide a low-cost option. And while, yes, there are some economics that work in your favor in India, you still should treat people with respect and kindness and who you want to show up as a company. And to your point, Sam, that wins all across the world. It seems like that should be obvious, but it's not. And I know from having an outside perspective that's part of my role, I know, with working with the team is being out there and taking a look and seeing what's going on. And I think that's one of the coolest things about Insight Global is the fact that everybody

really buys into the shared values and truly lives them out without having to be necessarily told to provide a bottle water. That's just how the people are. Another commonality that I found among so many people in Insight Global that I love and why I love being a part of it is this idea of obsession. And you've written about this, Burt. I love reading things that you choose to publish every week. But you talk about Ashley Pike or Hannah Jenkins and Kobe Bryant all in the same sentence. Can you tell me about this obsession with obsession and going out there striving to be excellent, be great at everything you choose to do?

Yeah. So, you know, it's funny, my mom, I grew up in a small town in Alabama and, you know, a very B average kind of kid. But my mom was always like, you can do anything you want. You can do anything you want. Don't ever let somebody tell you can't. You'd be the fastest runner in the world if you want. You just have to train and try. And you're like, okay, mom, you know, fine, whatever. But then you have a few early ones in your career that come from hard work, that come from work ethic. And it could be anything. It could. It could be. be you're a new salesperson and you set some big meetings that you didn't think that you could do. It could be literally anything. And you all of a sudden get hit at this thing where it's like, I made that happen. And I did that from my hard work and from my diligence. And then you're like, well, I'm just going to pour into that even more. And you start to realize the rest of the world doesn't want to operate that way. Speaking maybe to why we've grown when the rest of our industry hasn't, so many companies would rather just batten down the hatches and be like, okay, guys, we're going to be in a little bit of a downturn.

No big deal. Let's do some layoffs. Let's do some cost cutting. Nobody expects anything from us. And let's just do that. They don't have the will or the fight to be obsessed about the things that they do. And you can do that. You can actually show up and say, no, I'm just going to care a little bit more. I'm going to wake up a little bit earlier. I'm going to stay a little bit later.

If that's what it takes, to be great. And I think to be great nowadays is maybe not as hard as it should be because so many people aren't willing to do the work to be obsessed. Did you see Timothy Shalamey's speech when he won that, I think, a sack? I read about it. No, but I read about it where he sort of embraced. He just, he just, absolutely. He was talking about Bob Dylan's.

Yes. He was like, yeah, this is what four years of my life was like. Yes, exactly. That's amazing. I thought, I thought, honestly, I thought of you guys. And I loved it so much because he's just willing to say like, no, I did. Yeah. I went for it.

I want to be one of the greats is what he said. And then this award, this award isn't like, it's not what it's for, but it's just a little bit of fuel. A little bit of fuel. Like, it's not everything. And I feel like that's kind of like how you live too, Sam, this like obsessed guy with whether it's tennis, pickleball, or leading a sales organization or leading a company, this idea of obsession feels like as a part of your ethos. Well, I just, I believe like I get in 5, 530 every day because I have a couple thousand

people that started where I started. And I am obsessed with the idea that they should have the best career ever, that they should not make the mistakes that I had to make, that they should not wait as long to be successful. that they can have that same opportunity that I had, and I would be letting them down if I didn't give them everything I had. And I want people around me that are exactly like that. It's a special organization

when you are committed to people and they are committed to you and that reciprocity is there. And that's the organization that we're trying to build. And I just, I don't want to show up and do something like half-hearted. If I'm going to do it, I'm going to go all in. So yeah, I'm a pickleballer now.

Let's go. You gave us a meat. Working on my slice. You gave a speech in Chicago, though, recently, which was killer. It's similar, like, what Bert's mom said, like, you could do anything. You told stories about some of your early struggles and failures and how you had to fight through all that. And I felt your care. I felt your obsession.

I felt the juice from that speech of, like, God, I really want this for these people. What went into that talk? What were you thinking as you were giving it? 25-year-old Sam that had none of that, that I just wish a 25-year-old other person could have that. I'd have that a year earlier than I did. You know, like it's just, it's unbelievable to have 20 years of career experience behind you and to realize how simple it is, but how hard it can be. If you just don't focus on your own improvement.

If you just worry about how other people are going to judge you, if you just don't live with a growth mindset, people that have a negative mindset, people that are thinking about or worrying about people's judgments over your own improvement, that's the whole game. And if you just change those two things in your 20s, your whole life could be changed for the better. You could probably do a lot of things you maybe thought you couldn't do. Then I just, I like worry about that for my kids. And so I like worry about that for our new hires. I want them to start and know that they could do anything.

Yeah. Speaking of doing crazy things, Bert, did you run to work this morning? Is that true? I might have saw you pop in with a weighted vest. I'm like, not only did you run? How far is it? It was a hydration house. How far is it?

Okay. The most direct route from my house is like 15 miles, but I had to get a few extra miles so I'd actually to go past the office. I saw, I saw Robbie. Did you run a marathon this morning? I ran about 18 and a half a month. You're insane, dude. What is you with your obsession with running and running long distances in these 100-mile races?

Let's get to the bottom of this. Yeah, seriously. I think I'm still trying to figure that at myself. But, you know, no, I love a sense of accomplishment. I love a sense of accomplishment. I love that I can do something hard. I've always, you know, I lived in Yellowstone National Park for a summer in college, so I fell in love with the American West.

And I loved seeing mountains and being like, why can't I just stand on that? What is there? And I like knowing that I can do a hard thing. And, you know, fast forward. And so I've always liked running, you know, as my primary form of exercise, I would say. But going into 2023, I knew it was going to be a hard year in the industry. It was going to be a hard year for us. It was going to be a year that we were going to be just fighting to stay flat.

And I like the idea that if you run a marathon, they give you a medal. And I may not get a ton of sense of accomplishments in a year at work that maybe you're flattened, but boy, if I get a medal for running a race, that's cool. And so I ran my first marathon then and was like, I really liked it. And so I kept running. And sort of, I think all roads, if you like distance running, all roads eventually lead to the ultra distance. And I read this book called Born to Ruff.

Because he couldn't stop at 26. I read this book called, I read this book called Born to Run, Christopher McDougall. Great, great book. You should get him on the podcast. And he talks about this race called Leadville, which is in Colorado. And I read it and I was like, oh, man, I'm going to have to run that now. And because, you know, it's 100 miles. It's all of it's above 10,000 feet of elevation.

The total vertical gain is over 15,000 feet. And that sounds crazy, scary hard. And so I just want to know, like, can I do that? And I love the training aspect that you have to do for something like that. and the obsession and the discipline that you have to be to be ready to even try to do something like that. But the payoff is like, man, that the last 30 miles where you're like, I'm going to really do this.

After all the suffering, after all the, you know, hallucinations, whatever you're like, I'm about to finish this. I mean, I can't describe you how just amazing and majestic that feeling is, especially if you've got like, you know, you know, only one more marathon to go. You're talking about it being the end. It's really, I mean, crossing the finish line with Jeremy Kirkland, who's one of my good friends who paced me the last 13 miles was like, I mean, we just have a bond that is like unbreakable now because of what you what you sort of do together. And so, yeah, I like that. Yeah, the level of achievement, the sense of accomplishment, I'm after that stuff.

That really is what it is, right? The harder you would have to put in, I mean, I've never done this and will never do this. But I imagine, but it's not a level of effort. And it's not only the finishing, I would imagine, it's the person you become in the process of training and doing the thing. Yeah. And I think a lot of people don't ever get a chance to suffer on their own terms. Yeah. You know, to enter the pain cave on their own terms. And that's a really cool thing to step into that and to figure out, all right, do you have the stuff or do you not?

You know, and I think all of us deep down are afraid to answer that question because you don't know. And you're like, well, I hope I do. But when the wolf is at the door, do you really have it? And I love that I can get into that space and be like, yeah, I got it. I definitely have it. And I feel bad for people that they don't ever get to experience that in life. I got to see Bert the day he got back from his trip. And I was like, you're going to do another one?

He goes, absolutely not. That's a one and done type of thing. And then two days later in a group meeting, he goes, I think I think I'm going to do it again. And I was like, all you needed was just the legs to recover and now you're ready again. This idea of voluntary hardship, I found it to be a commonality among excellent leaders because you're willing to go sign up to do hard things, which then makes the other really hard things you guys have to do in your life, like decisions you have to make, the board meetings, the hiring, firing, like trying to grow a business with these crazy goals. How is doing the other hard things preparing you to do the hard things at work? I'm just curious. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I do think there's a level of just ease or acceptance that comes with that level of work in preparation. You know, like different example. But for me, like speaking, I like solving problems. Being an outward speaker was not always my like natural resting state. And Bert was, you know, very quick to tell me that. And so he's like, you should work on that. And I appreciate him for that because that's what I should do. And so for the last couple years,

I've spent a few hours kind of every morning just working on what do I need to be talking about and what is my what does my voice sound like and you know through the course of a couple years of working on it now I you know I get to run a call with a couple thousand people this afternoon and it's like oh I'll just go do that next because I'm ready for that so you know there's a level of decision making there's a level of preparation there's just the reps that you get from doing some things that are harder it's creating the fear putting it in your way and forcing yourself to be able to get over it. Yeah, maybe maybe you did that a little bit for me. Maybe I did that a little bit myself. But either way, I had to do it. And either way, I now can see that like, that's not

something you need to be that worried about. It's no big deal. Yeah. It makes anything else. You're like, okay, well, if we, I can do that, then I can do anything else. Exactly. One of the, one of the few certainties of life is that you will face adversity. You will face hard things. And again, I think that's why people who sustain excellence over time voluntarily sign up to do really hard things to better prepare themselves for those moments that inevitably will arise. You probably have multiple ones every single day. So when you're voluntarily signing up for hard things, you're better preparing yourself to deal with it when it arises. And these are things that you can't predict, you don't know. Is that part of your thinking of voluntarily choosing

to do really, really hard things? Yeah, I think it's a, it is a little bit that, maybe that's subconsciously more, for me, it always comes down to like, I want to know if I can do it. Yeah. It's scary to get on the starting line of a half marathon or a marathon if you've never run before, an ultra marathon. And so, but I signed up for it because I'm like, I just got to know if I can do it. I have to know that. And so I like that challenge. I think I can do it.

I put in the work. I put in the training. I think I can. And then when you do it, you're like, I knew I had that in me. And it just is so reassuring to me. And then, yeah, I think it translates to knowing that you can do all these other hard things for sure. Well, there is a level of like being.

surprised by adversity kind of sucks. When you're not, when you're not on your toes at preparing for it allows you to then when it comes at you, I think it's just easier, right? Because you know what that moment is. You know what it feels like. There's actually nothing better. I remember when it was like going into 2020, you know, COVID was happening. Take a side cover. We knew we were going to have a recession. So going into that recession moment and then even going into this, whatever you call this recession type feel that we've had in the economy since like the end of 2022. But going into that, going into that knowing like, wow, this is nothing. We have this. We have a plan. We know what we're going to do. Like, we got this. We have survived worse.

Bring it on. We can live here all day if that's what it takes. We're ready. We're set. Fine. Yeah. How about the choice? 2020 for a lot of leaders was such a perfect example of that. Yes. You know, because it came out of nowhere. It was. so abrupt, it was so jarring. And so I think a lot of leaders that had to face 2020, I could speak for the leaders in my organization in this company. I see the strength of all of them before 2020

and after 2020 is unparalleled. Like there's so much more poised and more confident and have such strength behind them because of really the last few years and how much growth there was in such a short period of time. The easier choice to make would have been just to lay people off,

Right. Was that ever a thought? Was that ever a thought? Let's just do what everybody else is doing and lay people off. It felt like from my perspective, it wasn't. I'm sure there were conversations, but that didn't happen, right? That would have been the easier choice that most people did. But here, that didn't seem like it was an option. Yeah, we, we, I mean, look, when you're staring down the barrel of a pandemic, I think everything's on the table. And you start sorting through like, well, that doesn't align with our values. And that one does. And oh, boy, that one doesn't. And back to the values, I do think if you are, I mean, our values are real. And that's why I think, that's why I think a lot of people stick with us is they're like, well, it does feel real here.

And, you know, you sort of live for moments that sort of test your values. Like, okay, do we really have what it takes? Just like doing that really hard thing. All right, this is our marathon. Do we have the stuff? Are the values real? Are they going to carry through? So when we got to the layoff question, we said, yeah, we just can't do it.

We just can't. Like, it just can't. And fortunate that we've got great financial sponsors, harvest partners, and Leonard Green that were like, yeah, got it. Understood. That's how you guys want to roll. Great. You know, fine. They didn't say that exactly.

From what I hear, that's not how those calls got. They're very supportive. Very supportive. But what's nice, though, is that when you have a company like ours and great people like ours, they make those questions really easy because there's no quit in our people. I mean, they are all fight. And so they were like, let us bring the fight to this recession like we got you. And so actually we grew 8% in revenue that year, which like, you know, you totally don't even have to have the layoff discussion if we're able to go out and find growth and find

demand in a time where there seemingly is none. And so, yeah, it's easy to bet on our people and we bet on them again and again and again. It's such a cool part of the story. And it's inspiring because you know, like, hey, we face like literally, hopefully a once-in-a-generation thing. and we didn't go there. We didn't do that. So like people go on the work.

Honestly, to Bert's credit, the flip side, he did the opposite. He was like, how about we lock those salespeople in who lost their commissions and pay them a little bit more? Because when things come back, they're going to know that that's who we are. And like, we did that. You know, you did that. That was a huge decision that you made. And for people that were in our business, you know, 2020 and before that saw that, you know,

a lot of people wouldn't know that because it happened after they joined. right? You know, we've hired a lot of people in the last four years. But for the people that were there for that, I think there's a lot of reasons to just know who the people are and the values are that we want to run this company by. Yeah. Bert, you've said to be before that the whole world is getting soft when you mentioned somebody who's... We're not all running to work. Who is, well, you mentioned somebody though who I think she's in Canada who is not sought. Wait, is Laura Downey, is that where she is? Laura Downey is not soft. So like, I just like this idea of being a beast, of being the opposite of soft when the whole world's going that way. Can you can you share

more about that. Yeah. So I mean, yeah, you find what I love where you know like you have hope in humanity is you meet people. Because I think every generation is so, it's so calm. Every generation is like the one after them is soft. They're terrible. I know. When people say that every generation is made off so much. Don't you know every like the generation before you said that about you, you know, whatever? But also do you not see people doing wild things out there? Like this kids exist. You just don't have. But it's nice when it's in when it hits you in the face. And so we hire people right out of college and so we have you know generation tons of Gen Z here I think almost Gen Alpha now but yeah Laura Laura Laura Dione I am a CEO Sam Laura Laura Laura is uh she's been here

she has been here about six years or so maybe now maybe eight years now but she's that she's up in Canada and I mean she is so hardcore she's so driven she's that type of just you just want this person in your in your organization and yeah she she called me last week because she was like how do I, how do I get people to like, you know, she's frustrated. How do I get people to retain the knowledge that they need to know so they can sound better in front of customers? How do I get them to be obsessed about the work as I am? And it was funny.

I was like, oh, Laura, yeah. So you're just, you have the curse of the high achiever. So let's, I'm sorry. But like, not everybody runs it at your speed. Don't, you know, that's so just let me level set some expectations. You don't change. Keep doing you. But, you know, here's how we can kind of talk through that.

And I think you can actually still bring a lot of people along and help them out. I mean, it does start with you've got to paint the vision and what does the opportunity look like. Okay. So if I can understand what that is, okay, that's interesting. I'll sign up for that. Okay, now we got to set expectations. Okay, this is what I need from you. This is what I expect from you.

This is what you can expect from me. Let's make that contract together. Now I'm going to teach you how to hit those goals, how to meet those expectations. And now I'm going to follow up like crazy. And I may even have to follow to make really tough decisions, but I'm prepared to do that. And I think that, you know, if you can teach, you know, those, those just amazing alpha high achievers, how it's just sort of lead in that way, then yeah, you can create a lot more people around you in that same way. That multiplying effect. Sam, I noticed in your office you have a quote of the man in the arena.

What does that quote mean to you? It kind of goes best. I mean, yeah, it really is fantastic. It just goes back. I mean, marred with blood and sweat. I mean, I just love it so much. But it comes down to the, what I said actually at the beginning. I'm not here for your judgments.

And if you have them, you can go, you know, you can go. To that other place. To that place, though. I won't say it. But you can go there. Because my world is not for you. And I don't care. Like what I care about is the work I'm doing.

And if I'm giving it my all. And if I am, then that's it. And that's that whole speech, you know, to still down into a simple comment, which is, you know, that's the man in the arena. that is to be respected. And everyone else that is the critic is kind of not. And I live my life by that. I want my people to know that's all we should care about. And if we can do that, and sales, by the way, is the most amazing teacher of this. Completely. Because sales, people that don't have a sales career, don't understand what it's like to call people that don't know you. They don't want to talk to you. And put yourself out there for them every day on blast for a number of years and just do that on repeat.

And the more you do that, the more you just realize, this is just, I just need to do my job well. And people will see that I am someone that will be a great partner to them. They will see that I really am here to do great job. They will see that I'm a person they can count on when they need them. And that's what sales really is. And that's what sales will teach you. And so for my organization, if I want my people to see that, I want them to learn that. Because, again, it's the most empowering, freeing thing for your whole life.

Man, I love talking sales. My dad was a lifetime sales leader, wrote books on sales, led 1,500 people at one point in his career. So he's my idol. But one of the things you said about sales, Sam, you said this to me in like a letter two or three years ago. Sales is not about deception. It's about depth. It's working for others. It's being the light to the world around you.

And I think that is a great transition, Bert, to what be the light means and why it's so important to you. Important enough to maybe even decide to put it on your body. What does be the light all about? Well, for me, it does come from a piece of scripture. that I came across Matthew 514 just before COVID, just before the big, you know, the world fell apart. And I really liked it. And I was, it just wouldn't let me go. It was rattling around in my head.

And I thought, boy, that's really interesting language. How do I use that? And I also was sort of, there was this, I'd read this Simon Seneca book called, called the Infant Game, which is a great book. I mean, it's, it is probably my favorite book of his. I don't know why he doesn't write. He only wrote like four bucks. But anyway, Infinite Game is great.

And in there, he says, talks about how these great companies have what's called a just cause. And a just cause is like this like bigger purpose, this bigger thing that you're really striving for. And, you know, it's so annoying because I'll like read these books.

And I'll tell myself like, well, Simon Sinek's not, he's not CEO doing my job. But then I'm like, he's right, I think. And it's so annoying. How dare he say something smart.

Yeah. And then we were actually at a, We were at our conference, our company-wide conference in January 2020, right as I came across this piece of scripture, I love so much, right as I read this book. And I meet John, I meet Johnny Efferfeld. I don't know if you read the story. And he actually, he comes up to me like in the bathroom. And you just got to know J.U. He's like, hey, dude, have you read some incidents in the book, Infinite Game? I'm like, yeah. He goes, do you think we have a just cause? I'm like, Johnny, not, not right now. Like, I got to give a speech. Like, no, okay? I don't,

well, I don't know. It's like, I don't have it. And this is like living rent free in my brain for like two months. And so whenever COVID happens, so much of the world was trying to, I felt a real sense of everybody was wanting to know, well, how can, what part can I play? How can I fight back again this? What can we do? And we're lucky that we're a staffing company and we actually have a wonderful opportunity to work incredibly hard to help other people find work.

And a thing where you're about to see millions of people be laid off. And so the call I had with a company on March 12th where we're going to be, send everybody home. I was outlining, okay, we're definitely going to have a recession, but don't worry, this is what we're going to do. This is how we're going to combat it. I'm private equity owned. So I've got to have this. Every time we go through a cell process, everybody's like, what are you going to do like in a recession? So you've got to have that answer cold. So I was like, we're going to be fine. Here's what we're going to do. But I knew, you know, aside from the tactical, people wanted this bigger thing to shoot for, this bigger

thing to be all about. How can we fight against this? And this is where I found the perfect place to insert that language from that piece of scripture I read. And it was, I told everybody, look, we have a moment and an opportunity to work as hard as we can to help millions of people find jobs again and to be the light for them. And that really stuck. And people really love that and rallied around that. And it just taught me so much around, boy, if you can find the right sort of purpose to drive an organization to get people to show up, they will show up in mass for you.

They will do crazy things to try to like reach for this and be part of. of this bigger purpose, this just cause, if you will. And then you tattooed it on your body. Yeah. So then I'd say, yeah. So I had to be the light. So every Wednesday. Right over there.

Every Wednesday, yeah. Every Wednesday for the next like 63 weeks, I did our be the light call with a company where I shared, you know, how we were doing. And the moves that we were making, the decisions that we're making, I shared a B the Light story where it was talking about our people doing these incredible things for their people in terms of helping them find jobs, some amazing stuff. And it really stuck. And so I decided, I've been wanting to get a tattoo for years, but I've always been like too scared. And my friend Eli was like, hey man, what, he sort of like incepted this in me. I felt like it was my idea, but it wasn't. It was his idea.

He was like, what if we did this event where we raised like, see if we raise $100,000 for our Be the Light fund, which we had, which is we have this like financial hardship fund that we kind of created in COVID as a way to help our 30,000 contractors, consultants or internal people. they find themselves in harm's away, the Incyclable Family Foundation can step in and make a grant to them. But we got a lot of people in the company, so we were worried about running out of money in that. And so I said, if we can raise $100,000 for that fund, I'll get Be the Light tattooed on my arm and I'll live stream it to the company.

So I did it right there. Yeah. I would have done it for free. Yeah. Yeah. You're all it. You haven't given a second one yet, though. I want to, bad.

What's that? What's that? What's that? I keep thinking you got it. I've thought about, and I'd like to get it on the quad. because I'm in my running era, right? So it would be kind of fun. But I like the idea.

California of you. It is. Well, I like people to not know, what is bird? Is he? Where's he from? I don't know. Yeah, you keep us. I know.

Yeah. So I like the idea for a term that I kind of have discovered from this running thing. I mean, called Suffer Well. That would be really fun. Suffer well tattooed on my quad. Or an eastern blue bird. And that, yeah. What's that?

Yeah. that one's just for me. I can't. Is that a private? It's sort of private, yeah. That's amazing that those are the two you're concerned. You might as well do both. What does suffer well mean?

Well, I like the idea that, you know, again, it kind of back to this like thing in endurance sports. Like, again, most people don't ever, most people don't ever choose their own suffering or go into it on their own free will. And I do believe suffering builds endurance. endurance builds character and character builds hope. The Apostle Paul said that, not me, but, but I think that's a, it's a powerful thing to get to sort of do that and experience that and do it on your own terms and to see what you learn about yourself through that process. And so, you know, every time you do some of these long, for me, it's a, it's an ultramarathon, but for others, for other people, it could be just a hard job that you have. It could be being a single parent,

you know, it could be, it could be anything. Financial problems. Financial problems. It's, And so whatever it is you're suffering for or having to suffer with, how do you do that? But through that process, you know, learn a lot about yourself and learn what you're capable of. Sam, that's good, right? I think I should do that. Well, yeah. Were you going to do it? I don't know.

I don't know. You don't have any, do you? Yeah, you got no idea. That's surprising. That's surprising. You got all the muscles. You should throw. I know.

If I had your shoulders, I can't get anything else in my arms. I like the quad idea. I see basketball players. I'm like, yeah, it looks kind of cool. Yeah, that's where the new band is, I think. Yeah. Like, you know, it used to be on the bicep now. It's like, I mean, my bicep is like that of a 12-year-old boy.

You run a marathon to work. Your claws. My claws are ripping. Sam, I did a 360 for you, I don't know, three or four years ago. Yeah, I remember. And, uh, dude, it was pretty good for the most part. No, I actually is an awesome experience for me because I got to talk to so many people. I mean, I did it for everybody on the team.

So I did, I don't know, 50, 60 interviews over the course of six months or whatever. That's when I remember, Bert and I got a lot closer doing your 360. We had a couple hour long conversation. But the word that came up the most, which I think you could probably guess, of all of those people above, well, there's only one, but the side below was care. And I think that is such a cool word if you had to embody one word for a person. And I have to think that made you feel really good. It does. It's my Timothy Shallow.

What does care mean to you? I mean, well, I'll say, I think I grew up a little bit about me. I think I grew up sort of isolated. My parents were divorced. I played a lot of soccer. Soccer was like my outlet. But I wasn't like friends with people on the team. I was the best player on the team.

And they liked having me because I like helped us win all the games. But they weren't inviting me to hang out. I remember I went to one or two of the pasta. to parties and I was like, I don't belong here. And I just remember, I remember being a little bit socially awkward. I remember in college, I studied electrical engineering. It was not an easy subject to study. I studied, I buried myself in my work. I was social, but it was like not, I was a little awkward. And like starting in sales, like that was way outside of my comfort zone. I say all this to say, I guess I've always wanted people to know how much I care about like being a great

teammate or doing great work and impacting the people around me. But I don't think like socially I've always been really good at it. Like there's people around me that I'm like, oh my God, they're socially like just exceptional. They're just so naturally confident and connect. I mean, Greg Murray and Tommy Cat and all these guys are around me that I'm like, they're so fun. They're so witty. They can do every accent in the world. They're so good looking. I'm like, all these things. I'm like, it's so annoying that you have everything. I just have to. You got me with you. I don't know. I can do this. Yeah. We just work for it. We just suffer well.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we do. Good. Yeah. But why I guess that really resonates for me is I've just always wanted people to know that I will do everything I can do for other people to be successful. But I don't know that I've always been the most communicative.

And that's my journey. But I've always wanted people to see that and know that in my work. And so when I hear that, I just really appreciate that feedback because it tells me that people notice that I'm working hard for others and they see that. How do you bring that to life? What does that look like? like a practical application of care. Like I care so much about my work, about my people, about my career, about my, about Jenna, about my kids, about everybody.

For me, it's just an intense focus. If I'm at work, I am so intensely focused on the work. If I'm at home, I am so intensely focused on my kids. If I'm on a date with my wife, she's like, can you chill a little bit? But I would just say, if I'm doing it, it's going to be, it's probably going to be pretty intense. And I don't know, like, at times people are like, yo, chill. I'm like, yep, you're probably right.

chill a little bit. But I think I show it through, I think I show my care through intensity. It's someone that watches Sam. It's everything. It's, it's all the little things. It's, it's sort of never taken a playoff, right? It's, you're showing up. I mean, intense focus is great, but it's just, it's just always on. And that's not for everybody. That's not for everybody, but that is what obsession looks like. And, you know, there's a reason why Sam helps me run this company and why he leads an organization of almost 2,000 people. And so, So that's what that means and that's what that looks like. But it's a million things.

Yeah. Why do you have this picture of Nolan Ryan bloodied hanging up in your office, Berger? Yeah. So, yeah, that's one of my favorite pictures. Yeah. So I just think that just epitomizes grit at its core. I mean, that's the back story in that picture, Bo Jackson, who's my favorite player

of all time. He grew up in Alabama with a stutter. So did I. He went to Auburn. So did I. We were both great tellbacks for, no, we're not. man. Yeah.

That's where it ends. Yeah. But anyway, no, he was at bat, and he had just hit a comebacker to the line. It was like a two hopper and busted Nolan Ryan right in the face. And you can see he's bleeding down his lip, you know, just out of the side of his lips

on a shirt. And you watch, you go back and watch the YouTube of that, and he gets hit in the face, he picks up the ball, he throws out bow. And he just gets back on the mound, keeps pitching. And they took that picture and that is like so cool you are going to get punched in the face you were going to you were going to be bloodied and you were going to be bruised sometimes and sorry man sometimes nobody cares

sometimes you just got to pick up the ball and get back up on the mound and keep going and that is just so badass i think i mean right yes i mean that is just that's it and yeah what like that's good i'm looking he's so focused on the next picture he's like let's do this and i just love that so much and i and i that I can like live my life as a CEO like that moment. I think that is that's such a great embodiment of you're going to get punched in the face all the time, especially in the senior leadership jobs like you guys have multiple times a day. And nobody really cares. Nobody feels sorry for you ever.

But you know what? Every leadership job. In fact, every contributor job like you know, just calling customers. I mean, I could say I probably got hit more in my entry level job than I, do in my job today. Yeah, there's like bigger decisions we have to make. But I just think people in every, there's just no, nobody's doing a job that they're like, my job is just easy all the time. And it's just, it's just rainbows and sunshine. People need to know, like, the matter of factness of stuff's going to be hard. Yeah. And you can handle it. If I could give my kids that. I'm like,

they're going to be fine. Yeah. Bird, I read recently this quote from Ben Horowitz about the most important skill for a CEO. And I'll be curious to your thoughts on this. Most important skill as a CEO is getting to the truth. It's really hard because it's really scary. Normal humans find every excuse not to deal with harsh truths. What do you think of that statement? I think it's a really important one. I don't know if is the most important one. We could probably debate that, but it's definitely something I strive for constantly is getting to the real answer, getting to the truth for a couple of reasons. One, you never want to be the emperor that has no clothes on. In there, two, there's like, there's so, there's so many, there's so many people and there's so many layers between a CEO and the front

line. There's so many people trying to keep bad news from you. Yeah. And it's, and it's not, they're not wrong for doing it and it's nobody's fault, but everybody's just trying to kind of like take care of the issue and solve it and maybe brush it under the rug. And so you, you are really insulated as a CEO in that way. And that's dangerous because a big part of your job, I think like 50% of your job as a CEO, my opinion, for what that's worth, is to be a strong communicator. People need to know what's going on. How are we doing? You got to communicate to them.

And if you're communicating a message that shows you're out of touch and you're not in touch with the truth, people are going to be like, phony, don't care. You don't see me. This is BS. You don't know what's going on. And you are a fool. And I don't ever want to be seen that way. I don't ever want to feel like I'm giving some inauthentic message just because I don't

know the truth. And so, yeah, that can really erode support for you as a CEO in that way. So I travel to our offices constantly. I probably get to two offices a month to spend time with our newest recruiters, our newest salespeople, our newest leaders, just to see how they're doing, see what's going on, and to get to the truth. Yeah, and Bert's also exceptionally good in every meeting at cutting right to the, I mean, it's amazing how quickly he can be like,

I see what you're doing there and I'm going to jump right past that. Now we're going to talk about something else. and all of a sudden you're like, now we're really talking about it. This feels like an important skill. Let's pull the string a little bit. How are you good and getting to the truth quickly? Well, I think part of it is just play the movie forward. Like every leader needs to learn how to play the movie forward.

And if you're trying to solve a problem or you're trying to come up with a new strategic direction or you're trying to make some decision, don't just, okay, we'll make this decision. No, play the whole movie forward. Play it all the way through. and I like to skip to the end in that way. Okay, well, if we do this, is going to cause this, which will cause this, which will cause this. So we really have to solve for is this the outcome that we want? How do, what do we do if this happens?

And I do think it helps if you have spent a lot of time, in my case, growing up in the organization, or spending enough time on the front lines to really know the truth and really know what's happening so that you can just cut through all the BS. And that's, I think, a really tough problem in big companies now is that there's so much gobbly gook being talked about in meetings and big words and yeah official term and and I went to this business school and so I really know no stop I to stop all the just posturing and I just know what are we really here to talk about what are we really here to solve and I like doing that I it's not that I haze people but I do sort of like to I do sort of like to call out the BS when I see it in the meeting

when people are just posturing or they're talking about things that don't matter to get right to like the heart of the matter. Just be directed and ask. But I would also say, Bert, is exceptionally good at taking complex ideas and making them simple fast. That's something you do really well. Also, reading people, exceptionally good at that. Because a lot of people, it's not like, there is the like posturing and all that.

But there are certain, there's just people that are just really positive and almost like too optimistic where you're sort of trying to get a real read on what's happening. and they're just telling you in a really positive way, like, it's going really well. But your nature is to tell me it's all going well. What's the opposite of that? And I think, like, he does really well at knowing always who he's talking to. And sometimes the paranoid people in the room, he has to talk past us for the optimistic people. And so I just think skills that you bring to every meeting we have are read of people,

are, you know, the ability to distill things down. I mean, there's oftentimes where I'm like, oh, I thought we were talking about this thing. thing, but he's actually making it clear to me. We're talking about this thing. And that's taking a really complex concept and actually making it simple. Because once you do that, you realize, oh, it's not about this decision around the strategy. It's actually around, are the people going to implement it? And he's just really good at navigating that, which I think a lot of people don't have to.

It takes a lot of work. It comes from playing the movie forward. But also, you know who I really learned that from was watching the private equity guys? We've had a bunch of different private equity owners. The private equity guys are the best in the world. It's taking complex ideas and cooking them down to this. simplest form because they have to look at thousands of companies a year to invest a finite amount of dollars. If they get one of those investments wrong, it's bad. If they get like two of those investments

wrong, they can like go out of business. So it's like a big deal. And so they are constantly getting to the simplest sort of, well, how does this company make money? How does that really work? And yeah, that's certainly where I learned it. And I think they're masters at it. One of the things I think new leaders struggle with that you guys are both really good at is when you're newer, especially if let's say you get promoted within the company. This is me early in my career. This is Insight Global. Everybody gets promoted from within for the most part.

Sometimes it's hard to hold people accountable, right? They're your friends. You've hung out. You grew up together with them. Maybe you got promoted a little bit faster. I don't feel like you guys struggle with this, at least from what I sense, maybe you had it did at one point. But I'm curious since a lot of your social lives are intertwined with your work

lives. Like so many people here, your core friend groups work here for the most. most part, the people you run races with, right, Robbie and the others, they work here. How are you good at both having these social relationships, friendships, but also holding people accountable to really stretch goals, tough, high demanding place? Yeah, I mean, the person who holds me to the highest standard in my entire life is my wife. And so, yeah, you think it's pert, but it is not part. He's a cupcake compared to Jennifer Kaufman.

My wife expects me to be my best all the time. And we have the best relationship in the whole wide world. So that's one of my greatest teachers. And also it's like if you want real relationships with real people, I love the show Severance right now because it's like there's not an outer world and an inner world. And so much of corporate America, it's like that's how it's treated. Here's who I am at work and here's who I am at home. I'm just who I am.

And the standard that I live my life by is going to be the same. And the relationships I want to have with people, I'm going to hold the way. them accountable no matter what. Yeah, we can have fun together, but we can still at the same time hold each other to a really high standard and confront each other because that's actually how we'll have a real relationship. I just think that's foolish to think you would have a real relationship with someone if you're not going to be hard on them. But a lot of leaders take a long time to learn that. I can give you two answers, maybe one nice, be the light CEO answer, then one spicy answer. So the one is everything Sam said. The better relationship. Mine was the cupcake answer?

Well, no. Kind of. He's holding you to the standard as we speak. Oh, that was cute. The better relationship you have with somebody, like real relationship, not just you go to Happy Hour with a memory. So the real relationship, I actually think it is easier to hold them accountable. It's easier to have the tough conversation because it's real and it's authentic and they

know that you care about them. You care. The other answer is what kind of question is that? Like, you want to be a leader and you can hold somebody accountable? Like, what do you do? doing? What game do you think you're in? Like, this is the game of leadership. If you are being held to a standard to get a job done and you're counting on your team to do that and they're not delivering and you're too afraid to hold them accountable, you are in the wrong role, my friend.

You are not a leader. Yeah. So I think about that. How many times do you think we fight a week? What ballpark number? It doesn't? Maybe six. Maybe 10. Twice a day. Yeah, twice a day. Sometimes in front of people, sometimes just by ourselves. Most of the time is this. I'm in front of people. You guys feel like you're like brothers? It's in a weird way. Yeah.

We come from very different places, which makes it even more unique, I would say. I feel like, though, you can't fight healthily unless it's someone like, I feel like that's what I do with my brother. We have a good relationship. Yeah. Yeah. There's still a level of this. Like my boss. You have disagreements.

I don't really fight with my wife a bunch. Ever? I mean, I do. You don't fight. You have disagreements. You just lose. Let's just say this. I'm hypercritical sometimes with Sam's.

I know it can be. With my wife, maybe you don't hold her to high standards. I don't know. You don't hold her to high standards. You're smart man. No, I think that, you know, you still have to be professional at work.

Like there's still an element. I want people to like me at work, but there's an element of if you're not getting the job done, I have to make hard decisions. And when I make those hard decisions, decisions, that's going to hurt our relationship. You can't take the humanity out of that. Yeah.

So you do have to live with the idea that it's not going to be like, we're just brothers. You know, like there is an element of, I think in another world, we could be best friends, but we also work together. And so there's an element of, well, you got to remember that all the time. And I think people who understand that are able to have the best relationships at work. I think there is also another thread here, though, for where the more senior leader can really help the junior leader. And so if you've got the junior leader, let's say, that's trying to hold their people accountable, that that's trying to lean in and do that, their leader has to

recognize that and praise them for that and keep encouraging that and keep supporting that. Sometimes we're afraid of turnover, poor performance, whatever, and that can cause a junior leader to pull punches. It can cause a junior leader to not go all the way there and not make that tough decision that they need to. Because it's going to make them look bad. That senior leader can say, don't you worry about that, man, I got your back, you make the tough call, you do it, you are going to totally unlock that person, and that is a really important responsibility of the senior leader. Yeah, I find, I mean, I find more often you're letting the person down when you don't, right? Like more often, those are the regrets I have looking back where I'm like,

if I only told that person what they needed to hear at that moment when I didn't, I think it could have gone differently. It's actually an incredibly selfish act to not tell somebody. Yeah. To not let somebody always know where they stand. It's putting your own. It's putting my comfort in front of trying to help you. And so I think it's a very selfish act if you can't do that. And I think thinking of it that way, actually, if you truly care, right, makes it better.

In one of your Bert's reports notes, which I love that you publish your thoughts every week, you said things I look for when I'm promoting a leader. There are three things, hard decision making, strategic bets and simplifying complex problems. We talked about simplifying complex problems. I like to go a little bit deeper in the idea of making strategic bets. What does that mean to you like when you're looking to promote somebody?

You want to hire a leader. You want to help them rise up within the organization. What does it look like to make strategic bets? So you can make strategic bets on new lines of business you want to launch it into or just on promoting people from within. And I think it does, the leader does have to live with one foot in the present and one foot in the future. I think that's how you become that transformational leader. all leaders have have to do the same thing.

And it's called growth. Like I don't know of any leadership roles where you don't have to grow at all. Like financially, personally, professionally, no growth. You have to grow. And so if you're going to grow, that means you're going to be pushing into uncertain territory all the time. And so you got to plan for that. And you got to make strategic bets on how to take advantage of the future,

an uncertain future. That's with the people you're elevating or that's with maybe strategic places that you want to go. And I think a lot of leaders, we do them a disservice as senior leaders to not remind them that there is their responsibility. And that's where you get these sort of transactional leaders that just sort of show up to work every day and they just make the donuts a certain way because that's all they're supposed to do. And they don't know that they should actually be working on like a croissant recipe because the market may be moving to that. And so we have to be thinking about always how what are the next. It doesn't mean don't be like great at your core, the Jim Collins famous hedgehog principle.

Yes, be great at that. You have to be, but how are you pushing and evolving yourself because it is a changing world? I do love the, I believe you just brought the cronut into the strategic leadership segment. Yes, correct. I'm going to think of the cronut forever. One of my favorite. Thanks, Greece. Talk about hiring Sam and something you had written and sent to me a few years ago. We talked about potential over experience. And you said if you want to build a culture of commitment and care, you have to choose potential over experience. What does that mean to you? I was really going to try hard to work a pastry into this answer, but I don't think I have it. I don't know. I'm going to be able to do it.

Yeah, I think. That's true because this is a strategic bet because it's, they experience. You can say, Bert, I hired him because look at their experience. Whereas if you hire somebody who doesn't have experience, you're making a strategic bet. Yeah. Well, I'm going to try. So like if you, if you have dough, you can shape the dough however you'd like and you can cook it to exactly the temperature you like. Okay.

If you have old bread, it's going to kind of be old bread. And it's going to be hard. It's made. It's formed. It's made. You know you're getting bread. Yeah. Yeah.

It's not that good. That was an attempt. When you take bets on people, they will almost always prove you right, number one. And then when you take bets on people and they do prove you right, they also are like, that's your gang. That's your like, that's your squad. Because like nobody else took the bet on them, but you did. if you want a group of people that want to really go to work for each other every day as part of a team.

You know, I think when you sacrifice a role to the outside, when that person was close enough that you give them that shot, I think the more you take chances, there's certainly roles like our chief legal officer where I'm like, I'm not promoting an entry-level recruiter to run our legal organization, you know, but there's a lot of roles where I'm like, they're close enough. Like, they could figure that out. And we have promoted a lot of people in different capacities to completely new roles. And I've just watched them for many years show up and do amazing work. So I just think, and when they do that, you guys have like a special bond around like what you were able to do together because it was hard, but we like figured it out together. So I just think that's a special way to look at building your business. And people put too much stock in experience. I mean, like define experience.

Like your experience is so much relevant to this job that you'd never had before my company. How? Like, so I mean, so I would much rather take the person that is, it is in it, that's one of your people that will give you everything they've got and then some. It's funny mentioned chief legal officer. And that was just an example. Our chief legal officer, we did promote from within. Her name is Ariel Zion about a year ago now. She was one of our senior attorneys.

Our former chief legal officer retired, great guy. And this is a big job, right? We're a big company. And so we had it. And we interviewed a bunch of candidates. a lot of great candidates, but Ariel had never been a chief legal officer before, but it was just like, man, I think she just, if I'm going to go down swing and I want to go down swinging with Ariel. Like she's one of our people. She's got it. And it is, every time I think about her in this role that

we promoted her to, I just smiled because I'm like, it was so the right hire. It was so the right hire. It was so the right promotion. Yeah, I guess it's a strategic bet in a sense, but it was so obvious to me. I want to talk about being together. It's one of the reasons why I'm here in person. I like the idea of being with you guys, but you do the be the light calls oftentimes in an office sitting literally shoulder to shoulder touching others. And you can see you have this rapport. You're just kind of like one of the guys, but you're also the CEO at the same time. How important is it to you guys both? I'm curious about being together in person, whatever this R2 or return to office type stuff. We're almost like past that. Like we need to be together. What do you guys think about that?

And why is it so important? I just think it's really important. And it's how it's like it's how it's how it's how humans have lived for a long time is together, not in isolation. Work is hard. I mean, whether you're still in staffing or making donuts, I mean, we're doing really good, exceptional work well is really hard. And I think you need the supportive people around you, period. And yeah, I love doing the be the light calls and off. You know, in the pandemic, I did it by myself.

And even a little after that, I did it by myself. And it was always just, it was just me talking. And it's for like 30 minutes. And I'm a funny looking bald guy. That's hard on the eyes after a while. So I like going to offices to our people and really like I like going there to a full day before and getting to know them and getting in on all the inside jokes and all the nicknames. So by the time the call comes, I mean, we're just like a unit. Yeah, it's like annoying for all the watchers.

Oh, we're so fun. It's kind of a little jealous. I was just like, I saw the Miami one recently and you got Bad Bunny playing. And it's like, Bert, I think he's like went on spring break with this group. Yeah, it's the best. It was so fun. And so. But I love that camarader.

It reminds me when I was a recruiter, when I was a salesperson or a sales manager in our field offices, which is like the best job. And I just think it's important, man. Like when you're like, again, it's sales, but it's also any, you have bad days at work. You have customers shoot you down. The boss says, I don't like this. You need a support system of people around you that can be like, dude, that's, that sucked. Are you doing okay? You need to be able to laugh and let the pressure out of the room.

You need to be able to hear, I love how Sam said that. I'm going to steal that and do that next time because that was really cool. That is just huge. And so I understand that's not going to work for everybody. Yes, there are people that are in remote roles. Yes, there are companies that have more remote workers and that works for them and that's fine. But at our company, we're going to be the type of company that does work together. One of the other commonalities about Insight Global that is not common.

Other places I've gone is the high level skill of communication amongst the leadership team. When I think of Jess Kouserreta, I think of Sam, Bert, you know, you Strepa, Dowling, Greg Murray, I just watched this speech in Chicago. They're just killer after killer after killer. Even account managers that are newer in the company get up on stage and just crush. I'm just curious, is that intentional? Do you guys work on this? Where does that come from?

The fact that so many people are, they could be like professional speakers for a living if they weren't doing this full time. I would say our posture is to push people out there. Get them out there. Put them on stage. Have them say something. You'll figure it out. And that's, that's promoting them to sale.

the first time, is having them speak. I mean, we would much rather say, you'll probably be fine, right? And we know that, like, they probably will be because they care and they're obsessive and they want to get it right and they're going to practice and they're going to work hard. They're not going to sleep for three weeks. They're going to be able to the speech. And they're going to go crazy and they're going to kill it, right? Yeah.

But that's because we just believe in them. And every time we've brought in, you know, guest speakers to come in and give a speech, I always laugh. I'm like, yeah, that was fine. They gave a good speech, but it doesn't connect as well as our people because they don't quite sound like us and they're not like how our people just get up there and totally let it rip. Yeah. What do you think? I mean, yeah, same, same thing. I was just thinking about Ashley Pye. I was just thinking about all this from Chicago, but just watching a group of people that, like,

I've gotten a number of reps there now. Like, I've had to get up in front of that group a number of times. That was their first time. And I would say my three favorite speeches were the three people who had never done that before. And I would say my three favorite moments from that entire, conference was asking them afterwards how they felt and just seeing the light inside of them the feeling of I did that the feeling of achievement that they did for the suffering that they had for the last month to rep that and practice that and I saw them nervous and strained and anxious and I watched them in the 48 hours leading up to it pacing and not in a single conversation that they're in because they're

pretending but they're actually in their head worrying about this moment on stage the whole time and then the relief comes afterwards and the joy in their faces and I'm like that's it that's all I ever want is the coolest that's the coolest thing that's the juice that's the juice that is the juice it's the best bert what's that what's that baseball about can i hear that story yeah sorry yeah so this is also you should know bird has props all over his eye yeah my office this is like uh it's like a tree house of service okay uh i love it when really like important investors come or whatever i'm like i'm like it's my office they're just they're like who is this guy what do you

What's the CEO office supposed to be? I don't know. Maybe more mahogany. Less paper. Yeah. Less little kid stuff. But anyway, so I'm a huge Atlanta Braves fan. So I keep this baseball on my desk to serve as a reminder of something.

And I'll share what that reminder is once I tell this story. And hopefully I don't get any negative blowback from the Braves organization. He's all right. But the Braves are starting off really bad. And quite frankly, it's because I love Alex Anthopoulos. He helped us get a World Series. but he didn't make enough moves in the off season, and we don't have that great of a lineup,

and so we're struggling. I'm a season ticket holder for the Atlanta Braves. I've got some decent seats, and I love taking my kids, Ely and Will, I mean, every game they love going. It's such a great dad, daughter, son, moment. And because I've been a season ticket holder, they recently sent me a signed baseball.

I said, thank you, an autograph baseball from an Atlanta Brave player. Okay. Now, I go to 50 games a year, 60 games a year. I know all the players. And this baseball, that was signed is from one of our relief pitchers named Jacob Webb.

He's actually no longer a brave. He left a few years ago. He got cut a few years ago. This is baseball. It's probably two years old now. Jacob Webb, unfortunately, is not one of the best relief pitchers. I mean, I'm sure he's a good guy, I'm sure, but he's probably like the worst relief pitcher that we had on the team this season that they sent me this baseball.

And no knock on him, but I'm like, wait, Atlanta Braves. I'm this season ticket holder. I kind of have to pay a lot of money for these tickets. every year and you're going to send me an autograph baseball thinking I'm going to like that, but it's from this guy that's not very good. Like, that's a BS gift. Don't even send me that. Send me like a hat or send me a letter. Send me a handwritten card. I would I would much rather do that. But don't, don't ask this poor relief picture. It probably got better stuff to do, the sign of baseball to send to Bert Bean. That's inauthentic, I think. I think that's not real.

That's not going the extra mile. That's not being obsessive as to think, okay, what does What do our best season ticket holders? What do they really need to get? That's going to be a nice token of appreciation. That somebody said, oh, have a brave cinematograph baseballs. And that was poor execution there. And they dropped to some intern that chased around and found whoever was in the clubhouse that day. And it happened to be Jacob Webb to sign a baseball to send to me.

And that is, that is BS. That is not taking something all the way through. That is poor execution. And it backfired. And so I want to make sure that I keep this baseball on my desk to make sure we don't inadvertently do things like that in our organization for our customers. What would that look like? What does sending the Jacob Wed baseball look like at Insight Global? I think a good example of it is you promote salespeople out there and you give them inadequate training. You give them inadequate

training as to how to talk about our services, as to how to talk about, you know, we're doing a lot more internationally. We're doing a lot more selling professional services. I mean, one of the reasons why we've grown, Ryan, the last couple of years in a huge way is our big investments in professional services. You know, the staffing industry is big, but you get out of staffing, you know, into selling bigger and more complex deals that are called professional services. Companies want to invest more in AI. They want to move teams to India. You have to know how to speak that and show up in that way. And if we don't do a good enough job of showing ourselves people how to speak in that way and training them in that way, making the right investments to carry it all the way through, then they don't

show up well in front of the customer. And they feel terrible. The customer is like, oh, you say you can do this, but I don't believe you, you're not investing in me to help solve my problems. I think that's just one example. We've got to run a little bit, but I have one more question. I like to ask both you guys. Sam, you can go first. You hire a lot of people right out of college. I actually spoke with one last week. Jack Matheson, University of Georgia graduate, who has high agency, very gritty, very curious, asked me a ton of questions, sent me this beautiful cold email asking for advice on how to get a job here. I already had other offers for other companies, offering them more money, by the way, did the interview.

Jack's going to do well. Jack, yeah, killed it, killed the interview, got the offer. Congrats, Jack. And accepted it. Very happy for him. But cool stories like that, I love looking at people around that age range and seeing their trajectory. And so I'm curious if you were trying to help someone increase their velocity of that

trajectory, Sam, who's in that recent college grad range, what are some general pieces of life slash career advice you'd give to them? Yeah, I mean, it's pretty standard stuff, but I think especially early on, you just, you don't know that it's okay to show people you don't know. And the number one thing that you are is a person that doesn't know. And so the biggest piece of advice I give every entry-level person is you got to let it rip when it comes to the questions. And you got to also not have to ask four or five, six times. So ask a lot of questions. Show everyone. I'm so sorry, I have to ask you so many. questions right now. I'm so lost. I'm going to ask all of them. Also, you won't have to say another time because I'm going to take great notes and I'm going to listen and I'm going to be ready to apply it. And it's like people that just start their careers knowing I got a lot to learn. I'm going to soak it all up and I'm going to work hard to learn it and learn it as quickly as I can. I think that you just start there and things are going to start working out really well for you.

People that don't show up that way, I think it just gets harder faster. Yep. Bert, what do you think? Don't ever give somebody a reason to fire you. Glenn Johnson, our founder, told me that when I was first hired. Sort of an intense thing to hear is on your first day. But he was like, he was an intense person. He was like, hey, buddy, don't ever give me a reason to fire you. And I was like, yep. It's good advice.

So what he means, and I love it so much. It's your work ethic is just can carry you so far. You know, your ability to ask questions and to take good notes and to care and to lean in and to be obsessed can take you so far. And when the chips are down for a company, they've got to make a tough decision. They're going to fire you last, if ever at all. Love it. I just want to say to you guys, both of you guys, we've been working together now for five years.

Our first meeting was supposed to be in-person, March 17th, 2020. The day before, you remember you said, I think the world's shutting down. Are you sure you still want to come? And I said, yeah, yeah, I'll be there. I want to do this in person. I was like, I don't like Ryan watches the news. And then I think like four hours later,

it's like actually, I think I don't think I should come down. So anyway, it's been five years now, which is insane to think about that. And I just loved it. It's even better today than it was, I think, in 2020. As far as just getting there of so many amazing people and getting to hang out in leadership circles and compass retreats and all the cool things.

So I'm just really grateful for both you guys. Thank you for everything you do for the company. Of course, man. I can't wait for the next. Love your podcast. It's the best one out there. If you're an aspiring leader, please listen to this. I mean this show, I truly mean this taught me so much about how to be a CEO

on my first year. I mean, I love your podcast so much. Dude, that means a lot. That means a lot. Thank you guys. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learningleader.com.

Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Bert Bean and Sam Kaufman. A few takeaways from my notes, holding people accountable. I loved Bert's spicy answer to this one and how he looked at me kind of sideways and said, like, what are you doing if you're not able to confront someone when they aren't meeting the standard? That's the job of a leader. If you can't do that, you can't lead. And this idea of having high standards and holding people to them, I think, is so, so important. And then Sam's hiring style and willingness to make bets, strategic bets on people.

And he prefers potential over experience. And he said, if you want to build a culture of commitment and care, you have to choose potential over experience. but this is the harder path. This is tough. This involves coaching. This involves caring for people. This involves being with them to help them grow and improve. And Sam is one of the best in the world at this.

And then a through point for the entire conversation was obsession. I love obsession. Being obsessed with caring for people. Being obsessed with doing hard things like running 20 miles to work, which Bert did this morning. Being obsessed with how prepared you are for a big meeting. obsessed with your standards, holding yourself accountable to high standards, as well as those you are serving. The leaders who sustain excellence over an extended period of time are obsessed with their work, their growth, their craft, their people. I love obsession. Once again, I'm

I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leaders Show with Bert Bean and Sam Kaufman. I think they'll help you become more effective leaders because you continue to do that. And you also go to Spotify and Apple Podcasts and you subscribe to the show and you rate it hopefully five stars and you write a thoughtful review

and by doing all of that, you give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so much. Talk to you soon. Can we?