The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 634: Tom Nolan (CEO of Kendra Scott) - 2% Moments, Setting Big Goals, Being Unbalanced, Moving Fast, Coaching High Performers, & Going Through Hard Things Together

Episode Date: May 11, 2025

The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk Go to www.LearningLeader.com for full show notes. This is brought to you by Insight Global. If you need to hire 1 person, hire a team of people, or transform your business through Talent or Technical Services, Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world have the hustle and grit to deliver. Go to www.InsightGlobal.com/LearningLeader Notes "Average players want to be left alone. Good players want some coaching. Great players want the truth."  It is not a company's job to give work-life balance to someone. And he is not balanced. He's on 24/7. It was refreshing to hear the real story from someone who is running a company. As Dr. Julie Gurner said on episode #538, "People will tell you in books that you have to live a 'balanced life,' but if we are completely honest, almost all great things are born from periods of imbalance." Make the most of your 2% moments. 98% of the time, life is just happening… But every once in a while, you'll have the 2% opportunities. Like when he met his wife, or interviewed with Kendra Scott. It's on us as leaders to be ready to make the most of those 2% moments. Tom's relationship with Kendra: "We've been through so many hard things together." Those hard times can forge a strong relationship, or they can break you. Remember that the next time you're going through something tough with someone else. It's an opportunity to fortify a relationship. Hiring - Play your position well. Know what you're good at. Don't have to like teammates, but do need to love them. Learn from mistakes. Work is like family. But you don't fire your family... Discipline comes from a place of love. Read: The Way of the Shepherd Goal maniac - After failing at his first job interview, he asked for another shot and showed up the next day with pages of goals. Tom's Strengths - immediate urgency, insatiable need to win, good problem solver, better when things are hard. How do you navigate slow walkers? It's hard. Need patience and thoughtfulness too. What are the must-haves to be hired as a leader with Tom? Good human. Win + Kindness + Compassion. Tom claims that he is not a good interviewer. Gets help from the team. It is a rigorous process. He wants people who have gone through hard things. "Living through struggle makes people better." Grit.

This episode is brought to you by my friends at Insight Global. Insight Global is a staffing and professional services company dedicated to providing amazing people to their clients and taking great care of them. If you need to hire one person, hire a team of people, or transform your business through talent or technical services, Insight Global can get you the people you need and help you develop them to reach their full place. potential. Developing your people can be tough, but having productive employees can be magic. Visit Insightglobal.com slash learning leader. That's Insightglobal.com slash learning leader to learn more. Welcome to The Learning Leader Show. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. If you'd like to see the show notes for this and all episodes, go to Learning Leader. Now on to the night's featured leader. Tom Nolan is the CEO of Kendra Scott, a leading jewelry and

accessories brand based in Austin, Texas. With over 20 years of experience in brand building, management, and strategic planning, Tom oversees the day-to-day business and strategy of the 3,200 employee multi-billion dollar company. During our conversation, we discuss why Kendra Scott specifically chose Tom to be the CEO of her company. Then Tom talks about 2% moments in life and how to make the most of them. And then he shared potentially a spicy take why a company is not responsible for work-life balance. And then he shares the impact that setting ambitious goals has had on him and what they could have for you. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation.

with Kendra Scott CEO Tom Nolan. I love learning about your upbringing. I'm in New York and your dad being an electrician and you playing baseball and how baseball has really impacted your life, helped send you to college. Can you talk to me a little bit about what you learned playing baseball that has now helped you as a CEO? Yeah.

I mean, I couldn't cut it in football like you. So I guess I had to play, had to do something else. So I played baseball and basketball, football in high school, but ultimately played baseball, paid for college. And you mentioned it. My dad was an electrician, dropped out of high school in the 11th grade. So first person, my family, I graduated from high school. And if it wasn't for sports, you know, I'd probably be an electrician,

which maybe served me well in life. But I wanted a different path. And I was fortunate enough that at the time, I used to be a decent athlete and paid for school. But yeah, I mean, as you know, a lot of your guests on the show have mentioned, you've mentioned before. It's, I think the lessons you learn in sports kind of stay with you throughout your life. And there's so many, you know, conduits to real life and business and raising a family and success,

I think, that you learn on a court or a field that you just can't, it's harder to learn in real life. As a leader, one of the most important elements is who you choose to surround yourself with. And as an athlete, you don't always get to make those choices, but you do have to figure out how to collaborate with them and work with them and strive for a common goal. So I'm curious now that you do have more power in building and selecting the team. How do you think about that? How do you think about who I'm choosing to surround myself with on my executive team?

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things you learn on a sport field is you got to play the position that you're playing and be the best you can on that to contribute to the team to win games. If you're playing a team sport, I think an individual sport like golf or tennis or, you know, is a little bit different. But if you're in a team sport, which I played predominantly and you play, you got to play your position. And I think the things that I've learned through the years is, you know, I was a pitcher.

And if I tried to be a pitcher and a first baseman and a center fielder and a catcher, like I probably wouldn't have been good at any of those things. So I knew what I was good at. And then we were fortunate enough in baseball, but also in life, to surround yourself with people that are better at things that you're not great at and make your weaknesses a little bit better and qualify and quantify your strengths. So I feel like those are less usually. And ultimately, the goal is to win as a team together, right? There's no, no I in team that old adage, obviously people have overused for many years. But it's true. I mean, I think when you play

on teams and one of the lessons I've learned in business is like, you know, you don't always necessarily have to like the people on your team, but you love them, right? And like, you'll run through a wall for them. And I think those things and those lessons learn and the galvanization of going through hard things, I think is what makes you stronger as an individual. And you don't learn, you know, this is another adage that's used way too much,

is like you don't learn from the successes, you learn from the failures. And, you know, you learn from the failures in sports. You learn from the failures in business. But I think over the years, learning what you're not good at, surrounding yourself with people that are great and smarter than you,

which for me is not that hard because I feel like most people are smarter than me, has been some of the best lessons I've learned and allowed me to be successful because of the people around me. You mentioned most people smart than you. I doubt that's true. I am curious, though, as to this transition because you're the CEO of a company named after someone else

that's still very much alive and active and present, right? Kendra Scott, especially if you're a dad of daughters, you know all about Kendra Scott. I've probably given you thousands and thousands of dollars over the years. Tom and it's great stuff. I love it. That was that's what attracted me to want to have this conversation with you is because we love Kendra Scott in our house. She chose you for a reason, right? She could have chosen anybody, literally anybody and most people would take that job, right? Whether they work there or not. Why did Kendra choose you to succeed her and be the CEO of

her company, of her baby, right? Like this is the thing she started. It's in her name and you're the CEO now. Yeah. I mean, a moment of weakness clearly. But I had been on the board. I've been on our board for over 10 years now. And I think I had some time on the board before joining the organization in an operating role. And I've only worked for founders. I've been a founder. I serve on the board of founder-led companies.

Most of the investing I do is in founder-led businesses. So, like, I understand that dynamic. And you mention it. It's like, it is a founder sees their business as their child, right? So I think when I joined this organization in an operating role, I joined it as chief revenue officer and chief marketing officer. and then became president after that. And I truthfully, between Ryan, I just thought that was my ceiling

because I worked for founders. I worked for Ralph Lauren. I saw Ralph hold on to the CEO title for a long time. And I just thought that was going to be it. Because I understood that dynamic of like, you know, the idea of giving custody to somebody else of your child is a really hard thing to do. But I think over the years, the main reason was we have an unbreakable trust.

I guess is the best way to say it. I think Kendra trusts me. I think she obviously recognizes that, you know, I'd like to think I'm good at things that she's not the best at, even though she's the best at a lot of things. And she certainly is great at things that I'm not great at. And but I think ultimately it's rooted in trust. I think anytime you give anybody anything from a business perspective or a team perspective to go back to her old analogy, you got to trust the person next to you. And I think it was ultimately that she trusted me and knew that I would I would take good care of her baby to a large degree. And you mentioned it.

She's very involved in the business still, thankfully. She oversees all of our product, everything creative, all a brand and philanthropy. And I think it's not just my job, but the rest of the company's job here is to execute the amazing vision that she has. And we've done it really well over the last, really a company's been around for more than 20 years now. We've done it really well for almost two decades, going on longer than two decades. I've noticed that a lot of trusting relationships have at least two qualities. And those are high character and high competence. How have you and Kendra built so much trust?

Why does she trust you with her baby? You know, we've been through hard things together. I think, you know, my title change from president to CEO came right after COVID. And, you know, anybody leading a business through COVID in any capacity or leading a team or even managing your own job or your own finances or your own family. And you know this. When you go through hard things, you know, whether it's, you're at the, you're at the end of the fourth quarter and you're down by a touchdown or you're at the bottom of the ninth

and you're down by a couple runs. I mean, when a team wins, when you're facing real adversity, I think it galvanizes people and it brings that unit closer together. I think she saw enough in board meetings and day-to-day activities as either president or chief marketing or revenue officer that I was going to do the right thing for her kid, not the right thing for me, but the right thing for our business. And ultimately for our customer and our people.

I mean, we're very, and you know this as an athlete, like you've got to be very protective of your people. So we are hyper protective. I am hyper protective of my family at home. And what's cool about this company is I really don't see the employees here much different, if at all, than my family at home. Like really feels like a family team unit. And I care about the people here. And I've been like this everywhere I've worked.

But like for some reason here, it's kind of notched it up a bunch. Maybe it's because we've been through hard of things. Maybe it's because of the demographic of our constituents here. but it really does feel like a family. And I think Kendra sees it as a family, obviously. And I think she saw that in me and allowed me that great honor of having the title of CEO of her business. The family element can be tricky, though, because your family, which we were talking about before we started recording with your wife and your children and your vacation in North Carolina for the summer, like all that, you're not going to fire your family. At least I doubt it, right?

But you do have to fire people at work. So how does that work? How do you view them as family? But sometimes some people don't meet the standard. Sometimes they don't do it the right way. And you got to let them go. That's part of being a leader. You got to fire people.

So how does that play? When you want to create an environment where it feels like family, but you're not going to fire a family member, but you will fire an employee or a team member at Kendra Scott. How does that work? There's two parts to it, Brian. It's a great question. The first part is I grew up in New York.

I'm a Mets fan, but I'm going to use a Yankees analogy, which pains me. But when the Yankees, when I was in college at Fordham, they were winning everything. And it was like, not everybody gets a player for the Yankees. Like, I think that's important. So whatever the best team is in your mind, not everybody gets a play for that team. No matter how much you want to play for the team, some people just aren't cut out for

good enough to go to play for that team. So full stop there. The second part to your question is I think that there are, I don't like to use the analogy of having to fire somebody because that's the worst case scenario. And unfortunately, you're right. It does happen sometimes. But the analogy I like to use is, I think the best lessons I've learned as a dad correlate perfectly to being a good leader of people

or a captain of a team or something. Like I think I discipline my children because I love them and I care about them. And I think if you think about your family, I go to my family when I want to know the truth because I know they're going to tell me the truth. It might not be what I want to hear, but it's always going to be what I need to hear if you really care about somebody authentically. If you don't care about somebody authentically and it's easier for you to just tell them some BS that they want to hear, that's what happens, right?

But I think the people that you care about the most, like my kids, I hate disciplining them. I just had an issue where my youngest daughter, we had to suspend social media, which was like the end of the world for her. But, you know, that's one small analogy, but like she was furious with us for doing that. And, you know, her world was over and all. But it's like, you know, she was crying and screaming and the whole thing. And it's like, but I did it because I love her.

And I know it's going to make her better at the end of the day. So I think work in the same ways. We are very honest with people. And unfortunately, the point you made earlier, there's sometimes this isn't the right fit for everybody. And I think it is love and care to say that directly to somebody. There's nothing worse than just like kicking the ball down, kicking the can down the curb a little bit or kicking it down the field and like letting somebody struggle in something for longer. You're hurting yourself. You're hurting that person.

You're hurting their future. And ultimately, when you have to make those hard decisions, I think everybody winds up. coming out of it on the other side. Now, how you deal with those things, I think, is very specific. I am very proud with how we treat people in the worst case scenario, if that it was to happen, to make sure that they're landing on their feet. I've spent a lot of time helping people that don't work out here find other jobs. So I think, like, those kind of things matter.

And that, again, I use a lot of old adages today. But, you know, people remember how you make them feel, not what you say or do. and you know these kind of those kind of things just kind of stick with me and i read a book probably 15 maybe 20 years ago now called the way of the shepherd i named our fourth child is named shepherd after this book and it's all about servant leadership and it talks about you know the best leaders genuinely care about their people and they understand the shape of them they understand what makes them work like what motivates ryan is very different than what motivates tom and very different than what motivates somebody else. If you don't really know somebody as an individual, you can't possibly lead them the right way,

but it's all about servant mentality. And like these kind of things I think I've learned. And I've read that book probably, I don't know, it used to be once a month. It's probably now once a quarter for the last, you know, 15, 20 years. It's great, great book, easy to read. Not as many pictures as a lot of the books that I like, but it's a, it's an awesome book. Man, I love, I love the element of how you make people feel in genuinely caring for them. Now, can we get tactical for a second? You're a CEO. There's lots of people that want your time that look up to you. What do you tactically do to show your people that you genuinely care from? Like, what does it look like? What does it sound like? What are some of the meetings? What are the one-on-ones? I'm just curious to go inside Tom's life

here for a second so that you can almost get to the perspective of somebody else of what it feels like to be cared for from you. Yeah. Well, I mean, again, it's different for everybody, but I would say a couple of things tactically that I do. I mean, I'm always on, right? Because, like, for me, I have no balance in my life, right? I like out of balance.

I love working. I love my family. Like, but my life's not in balance by any stretch of the imagination. And I think if you want to become a successful business person, your life's probably going to be out of balance. Like, if you're going to do it the right way. So the reason I'm saying that is I'm always on. So 24-7, 365, you know, this thing is with me at all times.

My watch is always with me. And, you know, I have a family unit at home that understands that and supports it. But the way it shows up is I'm always on for people. Like, everybody in this company has my email address. Everybody has my cell phone number. People can text me whenever they want. I mean, like everybody. We have 3,200 employees, I think, today.

And I show up for them whenever and however they need me. I don't care what their title is. I don't care where they live. like I will be there if somebody needs me. And I think that's really important for me to show up as my authentic self. You know, the way that we try to spread that out through the organization is like, you know, yellow we call traditionally what's known as Black Friday. We call it Yellow Friday because that's our color, but Yellow Friday, Cyber Monday. You know, I work in our retail stores. My wife works with me in the retail stores. We work in our distribution center. We get in front of customers.

We help the employees. Like, and, you know, it matters to me. when our employees are having a baby or getting married or somebody unfortunately passes away and they're feeling like we want to show up for them the right way. So the easiest way for me to explain it is like tactically I just show up as a normal human being for and with me. And I think unfortunately the title that goes along with this office, people get, you know, caught up in some of that sometimes and they forget that all people really want us to be treated like a normal human being and know that you're a normal human being that has. normal emotions and a family and all these different things. And I think everybody, I hope, everybody that works here that truly knows me and has taken the time also, because it's a two-way street.

I can't just be someone in my job, like, outbound all the time. Like, it's got to be a two-way street. And I think that the people that have put the time in also to get to know me and would say, what I hope would say those things about, you know, my warmth and kindness. And truthfully, I've learned a lot of her from Kendra. I mean, she's accessible, she's warm, she's open, she's kind, she's giving. Obviously, she's smart and dynamic and all the great things that have made her one of the most successful female entrepreneurs in the country. But at the end of the day, she's a great mom and a great partner and a great friend. And she said a good example for the rest of us. I appreciate your honesty there. I remember when I had Dr. Julie Garner on one of the biggest psychologists in the world. And she said, if you look at greatness and excellence over time in history, it was usually

born out of times when you weren't perfectly balanced. So while a CEO might suppose to say, well, we have perfect work life balance here and we do this or we do that, you're like, nope, trying to do something big here. I'm trying to do. Yeah. I think it's like the second part of that point is our company. And I think a lot of it is just because when I first started here, we were 99% female. Today we're like just over 90% female.

But because we had so many working moms, we've had to be flexible. from the very beginning. So I do think it's a company's job to offer the flexibility that an individual needs to be able to find whatever balance looks like for them. But like for a company,

to your point, to be like, oh, this is what we do for work-life balance is nonsense because that just means you didn't get to know the person individually because like,

I don't want balance. Like, I want to work my tail off. I want to be successful. I want to win. I also want to show up to my kids. My son's got a baseball game tonight. I will be this baseball game. I don't miss them if I can

because I have the flexibility. through work to be able to do that. But I do think sometimes it's nonsense to what you're saying when people say that very proactively. It's just it's not real. When an employee or maybe even someone who's thinking about becoming a member of Kendra Scott, here's that answer. How do people respond to that since it's not maybe what you're, quote, quote,

supposed to say as a CEO? Most people respond really well to it. I don't think I say a lot of things that you're supposed to say as a CEO. because I don't know what you're supposed to say because I just know what I say, right? And the mentors I've had in my life are the ones that were authentic and spoke the truth and walked the talk. Like it's easy to say something. It's hard to do something. So I walk the talk in my life.

And I think that that's really important. And I think the people that understand that react well to it and the people that don't that want work life, a company to determine what work life balance means for them. It's probably using the company for them to work at. Yeah. Speaking of being a CEO I've never been a CEO of a 3,200 person company What's something about being a CEO

That would surprise Those of us who have never been in that role I think like there's nothing special to it I have Again I told you I was the first person My family graduate high school Like I'm not going to be the smartest person In most rooms of any room

I have worked my tail off To everything I've done I've done in 150% everything. I've never been afraid to ask a stupid question. I've never been afraid of saying the wrong thing. I've never been afraid of taking a chance. And it's put me in, I'd call it 2% moments at times, but you have to recognize when you're in a 2% moment

and then do something about it. I think there's one thing of like getting a job and then there's another thing about making the most of that opportunity of that job to be successful and then showing up for your people. So I think like maybe the thing that people like two things. One, the person occupies this office, whether you're the CEO of a company that is five employees or 500 million employees, it's the same thing. Like, you're leading people, right? You're a normal human being. You're a regular person, regardless of what your title says,

how much money you make, whatever. Like, you still, everybody puts their shoes on the same way. And I think, like, there is this, I've recognized this. Well, I don't like being in my office. Like I'd rather walk around either be with customers or be with our employees. I feel alienated when I'm stuck here. And I've recognized, I used to think I could walk around. I just like go up to everybody. I'd be like, hey, Ryan, how you doing? How's your day?

Tell me about your weekend. It like freaks people out. And I never understood that. But I have come to understand a little bit more. Like there's just like a fear associated with this office of like, oh my gosh, if I say the wrong thing, I'm going to lose my job. If I say the wrong thing, like something bad's going to happen. It's like, that's not true.

So I think like maybe the biggest thing is that, I don't know about, I only know what I know, right? But for me, I want to just be treated like everybody else. I don't want any special treatment. I don't want to be looked at differently. I just, I want to be a part of the organization the way everybody else is. And I would have guessed a lot of other people in my role would say the same way if they're motivated by the right kind of things. What's a 2% moment?

A 2% moment, you know, spelled out pretty simply is 98% of the time things are happening and like it's normal. 2% of time it's a little different. Like when I met my wife, it's 2% moment. You know, when I had an opportunity to come work at Kendra Scott, you know, you get an inbound phone call on a job that maybe doesn't fit. Like this job certainly didn't fit for me. Like I didn't have a crazy passion about working at women's jewelry business for sure. but there was something interesting about it. I was like, that's a moment I should probably take advantage of.

I had other things going on, but I got on an airplane, flew out to Austin, met with Northwest Venture Partners, and Kendra, and it changed my life. So I think it's just like recognizing when there's things that don't happen very often that might probably be an inconvenience to the path that you're on, but take a swing at it. I feel like that's a 2% moment. And then, you know, the other thing that kind of correlates to that, Ryan,

is I've always been like a goal maniac. And this is probably the athlete, you know, former athlete in me at least where, you know, you write something down, you make it real, it gives you something to achieve. And if you feel like you're winning, then you keep going. And if you feel like you're losing all the time, it's hard to kind of pick yourself up. But I think goals go along with 2% moments. And then you can, you know, if you're mapping things back to your goals, those 2% moments and they become easier to spot maybe.

I like that. I just like little phrases for inflection points for, for big moments. And speaking of that, you brought it up very briefly, but I think from a leadership perspective, I am fascinated by how leaders earn leadership positions. And so you mentioned you flew out to Austin, and you saw Kendra, and I believe it sounds like a,

was a private equity guys? Yeah. Okay. So you flew out. What were you doing at that time? And what made you fly out to meet with her and the private equity guys? Yeah. So I'll take you back a little bit earlier because this is this important part of my story.

So when I first got out of college, I don't know if this was the same for you or not, but at least baseball in the summer. Like I had summer leagues and I played golf in college as well. So I was like, I never had an internship. So I never had an internship for years. It was like I didn't know any better, mainly because of my parents. Like, you know, like Moulons and I would caddy and I'd play in baseball, whatever. So I got out of school and I had nothing but a piece of paper that said, you know, I graduated from college.

And it turns out, as you know, you may have learned, like, this is hard to find a job when you just have that. And when you've got, you know, you're competing against the whole world of people that were, like, really diligent about this. So I kind of stumbled into an interview with a publishing firm called Ziff Davis. And I interviewed with a guy named Jason Sparks. It was the interview for a job. I think it was paying like $12,000 a year to sell classified ads in the back as PC magazine,

which I knew nothing about, never read PC magazine, and you know any first thing about selling ads and anything. But I interview with this guy and he sits down with me. And again, this is for like a nothing, nothing entry level job. And he says, tell me what your goals are. Where are you going to life? What do you want to achieve? And I had like no answer for him.

Like no one ever asked me that question outside of a sports field. And I gave him some kind of nonsensical 22 year old kid answer. And he threw me out of his office. And I'm, I mean, this is after like 15 different, 20 different interviews. And I got none of them. Zero. I was pulling up goose eggs. I interviewed.

It was so bad that I interviewed for a job going door to door selling Bibles. And I don't know what skill set that requires, but I didn't have it. So I didn't get that job. So anyway, I'm walking down the hallway at Ziv Davis 28th and Park was their office in New York City. And I get halfway down the hallway. And I'm like, I can't go home. I was living, still living with my parents. I had no money.

If I was like, if I go home, my dad just going to make me go work for him or John Sparagano or one of his construction. and it's not what I wanted. So I went back to Jason's office and I said, hey, if I come, go home tonight and think about my goals, can I come back? Can we restart this thing first thing tomorrow? And he was like, yeah, whatever. And I'm certain he thought he'd never see me again. So I went home, I stayed up.

Literally, I didn't sleep. I sat up all night and I wrote my goals, my 10-year goals down. I was 22. I was 22, 10 years of my goals down. And I was like maniacal about it. Like the money I wanted to make, the car I wanted to drive, the job. I wanted to have. It was pages of goals. So go back, get the job. And then fast forward somewhere around 10 years later, did really well as if Davis. When I'm going to Condi NAS,

became a magazine publisher at Golf World magazine, which is my favorite magazine when I was 26 years old, which is crazy. And my wife and I were moving from one house to another. And I found the goal sheet. I used to keep it up in my in my cubicle there. And it was like, I was nuts about every decision I would make would have to map back to those goals. And it was just output. I learned really early on. It was like, if I had to make phone calls, everybody else is going to make 25 phone calls. I'd make 125 phone calls. Like everything to me was output. Output put me in better opportunities, better opportunities, got me access to different people that gave me those 2% moments that I talked about and then I made the most of them and then I kept being more successful. So I found that those goal

sheets and I did every one of them. Like it was nuts. Every one of them in 10 years, I accomplished everything on my list. And my first feeling, I was pissed because like, man, I should have made these things better. And what were some of them? Like the money I wanted to make, the title I wanted to have. How much money was it? Well, one of them at the time was to make $100,000 a year.

For sure. Yeah, that would have been mine at 22 for sure. It was like six big. I couldn't imagine. My dad made, you know, 35,000 in his best years. So like the fact that I can make a hundred grand, and be like mind blowing to me. I had, for some reason, Lexus had just come out of the time. I wanted a Lexus, IS 300, got that car. Like, it was just stuff like that.

Buy a house. That was another one. I bought a house when I was 25 years old. And it was just like these things that happened. I was very fortunate. So especially coming from where I came from, I didn't expect a lot, right? So I like, I've always had an appreciation for things because I had nothing my whole life. So and everything I achieved, I earned.

Like nothing, nothing's ever been. given to me. So I had this whole mentality. Anyway, sorry, along with it, answer your question. Then went from Kondi Nast to Ralph Lauren, worked at Ralph for a number of years, and I love it. I got to learn, spent a lot of time with Ralph himself. I learned the business from Roger Farrow, who was amazing, I think the best operator I've ever worked with. And then, you know, having worked for both Zip Davis, Bill Ziff, and then Ralph and then Sy Newhouse of Kondon asked, these were all founders. I saw how they started from nothing, created something really special. I wanted to do my own thing. I left Ralph Lauren to start a holding company called

prospect brands because I grew up on Prospect Place on the island. And one of our things, we bought basically distressed assets. And while I was doing that, I moved my family from Ridgewood, New Jersey to Greensboro, North Carolina. I went to business school at Chapel Hill after that. And then while I was there, I got a random phone call from a guy named Rob Arditty, who worked at Northwest Venture Partners saying they just made an investment in a jewelry company in Austin, Texas called Kendra Scott if I would be interested in joining their board because I had one

outside independent board seat today. No idea how he found my name. I never served on a board before. I had no experience in women's jewelry or accessories of any capacity. And like that was that 2% moment. I think normally you'd be like, I have no passion for this. I have no expertise in this. I'm no way I'm going to add value in this category pass. But I was like, you know, it sounds interesting to me. I don't know anything about this. I've never been to Austin, Texas. I did a little bit of diligence on the business. It was a tiny little business doing about $40 million in sales at the time, but flew out there. I had a sister who passed away who had a brain aneurysm, which was tragic and sudden, my only sibling. Kendra and I kind of hit it off and she kind of

has filled that void for me, if you will, for the last decade or so. And that's how we wound up here. And I think the lesson I've learned through that, Brian, is like not just to be determined about following your goals and making the right decisions. And one of the things on my next goals was like join boards, right? So, like that was how it led to that. But the other part is I love learning and I like doing things I don't know anything about because I always hated when I was working in companies, two things. One, when people would walk in a room and just act like no at alls, right? Like I hated it. I just, I didn't like anything about it. I just, I didn't like it. And then the second was,

I didn't like not having a voice when I was younger in my career. And I always had something to say. So the idea that I could go do something that I knew nothing about, I thought was great because I wasn't going to be a know at all. I would be forced to ask a lot of questions. I wasn't passionate about it, which was great because it made me more objective than subjective. You know, at Ralph or even at Kondayana's a golf world, like I was a customer. You know, like I would look at something very subjective. You're like, I don't, I don't know, do I like the shirt? Do I not like the shirt?

I like the buttons. I don't like the way it fits. I didn't like that article. because it didn't talk to things I cared about. This was totally different. And it was a major unlock for me. And I think there's a ton of value in going to do something that you don't know anything about.

It just naturally humbles you. And I think in itself, by doing that, it adds a lot of value. You mentioned that you're more of a learn-it-all than a know-it-all, very curious. You get excited about the fact that you don't know about it, which is the opposite of most humans, right? Most people, like, want to stay inside those very comfortable walls of their comfort zone. they're not going to bang on those edges and it feels like you're living outside of those edges.

So that's something you're obviously really good at. That's a skill you've developed. What are some of the other things that you're really good at? Because you said Kendra's really good at some things or the best at them and I'm really good or the best at some things. So what are some of the other things that like you're really good at? In addition to being a learn at all instead of a know at all. This serves me well and not well sometimes, but I do think it's a skill that I do have.

My best friend in the world says what I have. is immediate urgency, which makes no sense. Like if you're urging, it doesn't need to be immediate. It's like if you double it, does that the opposite? No, okay. So I just, I have the highest degree of urgency in every single thing in my life that I do. But I think it shows up really well in the work environment. And I think the things that go along with that is I'm a good problem solver.

You know, I'll figure out a way to get it done. And because I'm not afraid to turn over stones or try something different or throw an idea at the wall that sounds completely ridiculous. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. And I just think like those things, you know, and it goes back to our culture here. And Kendra and I are similar in this regard. That, you know, and you've probably been on teams like this or worked in companies like this. I know I have that need to win in a corporate culture doesn't always show up the right way.

I mean, sometimes it creates toxic environments. It creates bad behavior. We have balanced it here with as bad of a need. we all have to win. And it's not again, there's a difference between need to win and want to win. Like some people need to win if you know what I'm talking about and other people just like, oh, it's nice to win. We balance out that need to win with compassion and kindness and warmth and humility. And I think that's what makes us great. And I do think, you know, for me, I'd consider that a skill set that I've learned. I wasn't always like that. I used to be the need to win at all

cost, like whatever it takes kind of person. And I've rounded it out here. And I think it's a testament to the amazing female and male leaders that I work with now that warmth and compassion. It's not just about like, this is what we're going to do. It's this is what we're going to do. Here's why we're going to do it. Here's how it's maybe, tell me how it makes you feel. Like, how does that make you feel? And if you don't understand it, I'm going to be patient enough, even though I have urgency

to answer your questions in a thoughtful and honest way. So I think that's a skill set, I guess. I think Kendra has it too. I think, you know, from a day-to-day operating perspective, which is a seat I sit in, keeping that going constantly is really important. And then I think finally, I'm a lot better, generally speaking, when things are hard than when they're easy. I just like it better. The last couple of years, we've been winning by growing 30%, 30%, 30%, off a really big base.

I love winning, so that's fun. But it's kind of more fun when things are challenging because you have to really be thoughtful about it. And I think if you execute properly, it separates the good from the grade. Yeah. And it's at half time of a game when you're up by 40, it's like everybody's a leader. It's pretty easy. Just eat the oranges and go out and finish the game. But when it's tough is when you are actually needed, as my dad has always told me,

this is why you exist, this, these moments, right? Like you feel like you might be in one of them now. Tom, one of the commonalities I found among leaders who sustain excellence over an extended period of time over the past decade of interviewing 630 plus of these people is, it's the first thing you said. And I would maybe, maybe to even narrow it down even more, speed slash bias for action. They're literally like fast walkers. Like legitimately when they walk, they walk fast.

Now, I try to surround myself with those types of people. Like the coaches on my team are fast. I mean, they move. They just don't waste time. They don't mess around. Like we are going. And that's why I like being around them. That's why I think we do a good job for the clients we work with.

But sometimes when they're around people who aren't like that, it's a little clunky. Like it can be a problem. How is it for you, a guy who has a bias for action, a guy who has this immediate urgency when you're, because not everybody's like that. There's still good people at your company that are not like that. How do you manage it? How do you handle it when you're this bias for action guy, but you're with others who are not? It's challenging. There's certainly lots of people that are.

that way in my life. And it's challenging to navigate. But I think, like, again, if you can explain to people why you are the way that you are and what you're trying to accomplish, you get more people on the bus that way versus just like steamrolling, running fast over people. Sometimes you have to run fast through people. And look, I also get, Ryan, there is a tremendous amount of value in patience and thoughtfulness, right? I'm not, not that I'm, well, I'm not patient, especially if you're ask my mom or my mom or my wife or my parents or my family they would tell you the same thing i'm not a patient person but i am a thoughtful person but i just i want to go like and action is really important to me and i'd rather again an adage and fail fast like yes all those things in spades

there's great value in having a counterpoint to that right because sometimes when you're going really fast you make mistakes and having people that can catch some of those mistakes before you make them is really important. My CFO, Jason, who's amazing and kind of my right hand, is much more methodical than I am. And there's so much value in that counterpoint. And as you learn somebody, too, like I know what he's going to say, he knows what I'm going to say. And I feel like there's just great value there. And he's my other guy, I know you're going to want to move here, but just hear me out. Here's a watch out. And I think, you know, then I have the opportunity to weigh the counterpoint and make a decision and either go a little slower or run faster. So you mentioned having a

CFO who was like your right hand Jason. I'm also, as I mentioned at the beginning of this, fascinated by the hiring process and the choice, the choices you make of who's going to again surround you. So what are some of the must have attributes or qualities in a person for you to choose them to be a leader on your team? I mean, first and foremost, I think you have to be a good human being. if I want to surround myself with good people. Like, first and foremost, there is anyone that's not ever been successful here has never

not been successful because of aptitude. It's always been because of culture fit and attitude. So I think our culture is very specific. I mentioned earlier, we have this insatiable need to win. We balance it out with an incredible amount of kindness and compassion. And I'm not in full disclosure. I'm a terrible interviewer. Like, I'm really bad.

Oh, yeah. I have hired, I just because I fall in love easy, I think maybe, and I've made some bad hiring choices over the years because I believed what somebody said. And then when it came time for the rubber to meet the road and actions to happen, those two things juxtaposed each other. Huh. If I may, like, I think that's fascinating.

One, high level awareness and humility for you just to say that, because I don't think a lot of CEOs would say that. So how do you manage through that? Because you are making really important, probably 2% moment decisions all the time, especially when it comes to hiring. How do you manage making good hires for leadership roles? I think, well, we have a great team, right? So Danielle, who runs is our chief people officer. She's another great counterpoint. Our interviewing process here is very, it's become very rigorous. Like you learn from your failures, right? I've made some bad hiring decisions over the course of my career. Now when we hire people, it's not just, our chief people officer myself and maybe another person interviewing. Like the people that this person is going to be working for will interview them. And the people that will be working for them also are part of the interviewing process. So it is a very laborious process now because I've learned the hard way of making on the fly decisions of like this person's great.

I just trust me. I know I feel like they're great. Experience looks great. They worked at these great companies. Like that's not what it takes because everybody's great. great on paper, I think the attitude and the aptitude of like wanting to be a part of this, wanting to move fast, wanting to be kind for other people, wanting to show up to our philanthropic events, like wanting to lead with humility. It's very easy to say these things. It's very hard to do

them because it takes dedication and time and commitment. I love interviewing and hiring athletes. I think there's like just something about people that, you know, have done something competitively, there's just a spirit in you and your engine just runs a little differently than those that haven't in certain environments, right? In, you know, in a sales environment, in a marketing environment, in those capacities, I feel like it pays a very high dividend to have those kind of, those kind of experiences in, but it's not, not necessarily everywhere, but generally speaking, that's kind of what I look for. And I, we have great sounding boards here that can kind of round out whatever feelings I have. I think if it's, if you're building or

you're a part of a high performance culture, which you have there. Being coachable and actually wanting to be coached are really good attributes in a person for just about any role, right? I mean, I grew up in a sales rep manager, director, VP. That was my track before leaving to do this stuff. And, man, we were coached tough. Like, we were coached really hard. And that made us so much better.

But I can tell you, it definitely wasn't for everyone, man. It definitely, like, because some people just don't handle. I'm with you, like I, whether it's military background, sports, again, like, I try not to be biased, but man, it's tough at times because I know if they spent time serving our country or they spent time winning and losing and offseason workouts, puking in trash cans from running so much. Like, it is hard. It's hard to find that in other avenues, man. Those people have seen, for me at least, have worked out really well.

Average players want to be left alone. Good players want to be coached. Great players want to be told the truth. Like, yes. And there's a chapter in the book of the way of the shepherd that's called, you know, you want to find people that have a learner's heart, you know, and it's all the same things that you're saying. It's like, again, if average people want to be left alone, they think they have the answers

to everything. Good people want some level of coaching. Great people want to be told the truth, whatever it's going to take to get better. So I think that, you know, to me, like, that's one thing. And then the idea of having a learner's heart, which you mentioned earlier is another thing. I mean, to me, it all goes back to being coachable, right? And you know, you can see it in kids. Now I like to think my four amazing children who have, I believe, I'll exemplify those kind of things.

But you can see the kids even at a young age that don't. And, you know, they're probably not going to be on the best path. This may be a weird question for the CEO of Kendra Scott. but Tom how passionate are you about jewelry? I mean, I wear a lot of it now more than I have to do. Listen, I grew up on Long Island, so I used to wear a little bit of bling when I was in high school. In fact, I just gave my,

it's funny how you change as you get older, but my little eight-year-old was playing baseball right now is the only kid in our family that does it and he loves it. And all the kids now were like tons of jewelry. And you see it like with Major League Baseball players. So I found, I found my old, I used to wear a Mets necklace, which is nuts to think about how like it.

I ever had a girlfriend. But I, anyway, yeah, so I traditionally have not been passionate about jewelry. I am crazy passionate about our customer and about our business. And I've learned so much about it through the eyes of my wife, through the eyes of my daughters, obviously through the eyes of our employees. Kendra, I'm not, I'm really passionate about our business. I'm passionate about how happy our product makes our customers. And the little nuances that I learn from, you know, my wife will see something or my daughters

will see something, what they like, what they don't like, what their friends are wearing. Like, they're the best sounding boards that I have. You know, obviously our employees are amazing. But, I mean, my 16-year-old daughter, like, she's doing things on social media and seeing things that, like I would never, as a 47-year-old guy, would never understand that. So she's really helping shape my perspective on things. So I'm very passionate about our customer, really passionate about our business, about our employees.

I don't wear women's jewelry. So it's hard for me to be the customer perspective, but I get to see it through others' lenses, which I think is good. And we have a men's line called Scott Brothers, which was modeled after Kendra's sons who were to varying degrees involved in the business. But it's a nice little business. It's never going to be the cornerstone of what we do. but I think it's important because almost around the holidays, upwards of 40% of our customers are male.

And the best thing about Kendra Scott, and this is one of the reasons why she started the company 23 years ago, was years ago when you'd walk into a jewelry store when she first opened the business. Like, it was very intimidating. You know, especially for somebody like me, I don't know how you grew up, but didn't have any money. I wanted to buy my, you know, my girlfriend something. And like, you walk in and everything's under case. People are wearing white gloves. You're judged. Like, it was just awful.

So at Kendra Scott, you walk into one of our stores. Everything's top of counter. You walk in, we'll offer you a water or a beer or a glass of champagne. We encourage people to be friendly and warm. And it's just, it's a much better environment from that perspective. And then from a value proposition perspective, like, the average guy could walk in in one of our stores by, you know, every woman in his life something or anybody that wears our jewelry something and walk out and not going to break.

the bank and get a really high quality item. And the fact that our business is rooted in philanthropy and the large majority of what we do from a give back perspective goes to help and change people's lives. I mean, it's, it's awesome. But anyway, sorry, long we're to answer your question. Not super passionate about women's jewelry's perspective, but I'm very passionate about what we're doing and how we're changing lives and the impact we make through women's jewelry in our customers' lives. I am curious about your daughters as well as maybe your wife or other women in your life. How influential are they in like product design or how often does their feedback pop up in a meeting with your exact team or with the products or however the it works to come up with something new.

I am fascinated by it behind the scenes there. Yeah. I'd say that they they're influential for sure. I mean, at the end of the day, one of our mantras here in operating principles is the customer's our boss. Like at the end of the day, she and he sign our paycheck. So whether that customer is my mom, my wife, my daughters, Kendra's mom, Kendra's friends, my aunt who lives in Boca, like, they're all the customer, right? So I think I'm lucky that my wife does have close relationships with a lot of the employees here. She talks to Colleen, who runs our retail business constantly, and Aaron who runs our merchandising business very often. So like she's giving her point of view, but also I don't want to be, and I never want to be somebody. It's like jamming anything down

somebody's throat and being like, oh, my wife said this or my daughter. of this. I want to temper it because I do understand that there's some level of unfairness that goes along with that because my family said something. So I try to mitigate it as best as possible, but they have great perspectives on things. But so does every customer. We listen a lot to our customers and then we launch new categories, whether it's fragrance or eyewear or Scott Brothers for, you know, Yellow Rose or collaborations at Rangler. Like we ask the customer what they want from us. And, you know, I think the old days of, you know, what Steve Jobs said, you tell the customer what they're going to want. Like those, those days probably don't exist much anymore,

where customer has a much larger voice than they used to years ago and they want to be a part of companies that have purpose. You know, they want to understand what goes behind things before they buy it. And I feel like we're at the center of that for a lot of reasons. But so yeah, I mean, my family offers their point of view, but in a very respectful way. You mentioned the past few years, it's just been killing, just absolutely crushing. And now maybe, I don't know, we'll see, maybe it's going to be a little tougher. I'm curious about looking at the current state of the business and you, part of your job as a CEO is to be the visionary, to look forward, to try to see around corners, right, all really hard things to do. What does it look like currently

and what does it look like moving forward, your vision, right? You're a goal setter. You like to go after it and get it and win? What's it looking like moving forward for you guys? Yes. I mean, look, looking ahead is no different than how we look behind. We're focused on maintaining a culture that's filled with continuous learning, right? Within our organization, we want to speak to each other. We want to hear from our customers. I don't have all the answers clearly. So I think we want to create and we've created, I hope, an environment here where answers are coming from all throughout the organization. I do think it's my job and obligation to bring a level of comfort and calmness when the seas are choppy. I use the analogy sometimes

amongst our leadership group of, you know, if my eight-year-old came in my room during a thunder and lightning storm, my wife and I were like cowering in the corner, like crying, he'd freak out, right? And we're in a thunderstorm right now to some degree. And but, you know, when he comes in the room at night, when there's a thunderstorm, like, there's a reassurance of like, we're going to be okay. The house isn't going to get struck by lightning. We're going to be okay. We got this. Don't worry about it. I think right now, similarly through COVID, I want to make sure that I'm over-communicating with the organization, letting people not like, look, there's a lot of potential headwinds out there. We've seen these things before. We have a handle on it to the best that we can. And we're going to

be able to just control the things that we can control. I can't control what happens in Washington, D.C. I can't control what happens in other countries. I can control this. And if everybody's doing that, focusing on the things that we can control and creating a great environment for one another here to be seen and heard and creating a great environment in our retail stores with our customers, we're probably going to be more successful. I do think when there's disruption, it creates massive amounts of opportunity for those that are courageous enough to try. And we will do that and we will create opportunity and we will continue to be successful.

I wish it was a little bit easier as much as we talked earlier about like, you know, it's hard to just, you know, eat the oranges and go out there and play the game when you're up by 42. It'd be nice to navigate, lead a company through a little bit easier waters. I mean, it's been nothing but turbulence since I've taken over here. And I'm very proud of the team and the results we've had in spite of that turbulence. We've been an outlier of outliers in the consumer business. And I think we'll get through this better than most and continue to lead with heart and compassion

and create connections with our customers and try to do it the right way. you're not going to know what to do when the seas are calm dude i feel like you're what are you going to do it's not going to be as interesting will it what i'll do is i'll go i'll go i'll retire and go teach and coach like that's my that'll be what i do love it one more question tom i'm curious so i was thinking of the story you told about yourself you know when you finished up playing baseball and i was same same way i had i didn't i didn't even know what an internship was honestly like i just was working out and going to summer school and getting ready for the next football season and so let's say you're talking to that person who is now a recent college graduate and they want to leave a dent in the world like in a positive way.

They're good human. They want to do good things in the world. But they're kind of lost. They don't really know what to do or where they're headed. What are some general pieces of life slash career advice you'd give to that person? Yeah. I do. I mentioned kind of in Jess, but I'm serious. I do love teaching and coaching. I do a lot of it. I spend a lot of time with kids in college right now because I feel like there's opportunities there for people to talk their language. because I wish it would have made my life a little bit easier. I'm proud of the things I've done, but it would have been nicer to have a little bit of a, you know, a Sherpa along the way, if you will. A couple of things I tell people is like, wake up early. Like, you know, and I wake up, you know, 4.30, 5 o'clock,

it's kind of an average day for me, whether I go to bed at 3.30 or, you know, 9 p.m. I think when you get a head start on the day and you start, you tell my kids and I have a joke. Like my daughter, Grace will call me. I be like, you know, what are you doing today? I'm like, I'm beating Monday. You know, I got a head start on Monday. So I feel like that, that maniacal kind of way of thinking is really important.

And most people don't do that. And I think it's really hard for young people, Ryan, to be courageous. You know, people will ask me, like, do I have imposter syndrome? Like, yeah, 100%. Like, I come on your podcast. I'm like, why does anybody want to hear from me? Every time I do a public speaking thing, anytime I'm talking to students, like, I always will feel that way.

And it's okay. you know, and I think that that's normal. And I think young people should feel empowered and courageous because their voices matter. I would argue more than mine does because they're the future and I'm the current in the past, right? So I really rely on what that constituency of people are thinking and saying and how they're seeing the world because that's where this business needs to go. Like we're not thinking, you know, I don't think in year increments from a business perspective. We're thinking decades out. Where do we want to be 10, 20, 30, 30, 40 years from now. Like, how do we want to set up our business today to be successful, you know, when I'm not even here anymore? And that's a founder mentality. And I understand that because that's all I've ever done. But, like, that's how kids should feel empowered by that, not scared.

And I remember how I felt. I was scared, you know, to death. Yeah. And I mitigated that by my athlete mentality, which was hungry. And I think, like, for those that don't play sports, like, you can still think that way. But I think young people should be courageous, unafraid to fail. And you've got the reality is you've got really 10 years from the time you go to college, if you graduate college till the time you're about 30 to just F up the whole time.

You can just do nothing but make mistakes as long as you're learning along the way. And then I think as you get into your late 20s, early 30s, that's when you've got to start making some hay. So give yourself a break, right? And like just try action, action, try things, say things, speak up. I think that makes a big, big difference. And it separates you. Like too many other people are bashful and wallflowers at that age. And like the ones that stand out really stand out.

Love it. Tom, thank you so much, man. I'm a big fan of Kendra Scott, your company. And now you. I appreciate you sharing so much. And I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. Yeah, for sure. Thanks for having me, Ron.

I appreciate it. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learning leader.com, let me know what you learned. And there's great conversation with Kendra Scott's CEO, Tom Nolan, a few takeaways from my notes. Average players want to be left alone. Good players want some coaching. Great players want the truth.

Think about that when you're hiring, when you're coaching, when you're developing, and building your team and your culture. Then I really appreciated Tom's honesty when it came to work-life balance. He said it is not the company's job. to give work-life balance to someone. And he is not balanced. He's on 24-7. His family realizes this, and they know it, and they support him. It was refreshing to hear the real, raw, honest truth about this from someone who is running a company.

And as Dr. Julie Gurner told me on episode 538, quote, people will tell you in books that you have to live a balanced life. But if we are completely honest, almost all great things are born. from periods of imbalance. And then make the most of your 2% moments. 98% of the time life is just happening. But every once in a while, you'll have those 2% opportunities,

like when he met his wife or interviewed with Kendra Scott. It's on us as leaders to be ready to make the most of those 2% moments. Once again, I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, Hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Tom Lullen. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that.

And you also go to Spotify and Apple Podcasts and you subscribe to the show and you're right, a thought for you. And you're rated hopefully five stars. And by doing all of that, you give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so much. Talk to you soon. Can we?