The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 637: Tom Ryan (Ohio State Wrestling Coach) - Chosen Suffering, Emotional Control, Responding to Tragedy, Success Pillars, and Learning from Dan Gable

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Starting point is 00:00:34 Visit Insightglobal.com slash learning leader today to learn more. That's Insightglobal.com slash learning leader. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Go to LearningLeader.com for full show notes of this conversation. Now on to tonight's featured leader, the legendary Tom Ryan is the head wrestling coach at Ohio State University and college. He wrestled for perhaps the greatest wrestling coach of all time, Dan Gable at Iowa, where he was a two-time Big Ten champion and a two-time NCAA All-American.

Starting point is 00:01:18 As a coach at Ohio State, he's won numerous national coach of the year honors, has coached more than 75 All-Americans, and led the Buckeyes to the national championship. in 2015. We filmed this one in his office in Columbus, Ohio, after spending the morning watching some of his championship wrestlers practice. This is one of the coolest days I've had in a long time. Some of the things we discuss, what it means to choose your suffering and why this is a commonality among excellent leaders. Then Tom shares the number one indicator in sustained success And then in what was probably the most emotional moment in my 10 plus years of recording this podcast, Tom shared the story of the day. His five-year-old son Teague had a heart attack and tragically passed away. The room went silent and Tom went deep into the impact that's had on him and his family.

Starting point is 00:02:23 It's something I just cannot imagine happening. I'm grateful that Tom was willing to share this and be so vulnerable. I love this dude and feel so lucky to have been there in Columbus with him to talk. Ladies and gentlemen, this is one that was, it's going to make you feel something like you probably haven't in a while. Please enjoy the legendary Tom Ryan. All right, coach, first of all, thank you for hosting us. This place is amazing. It's really cool and it's good to see.

Starting point is 00:02:55 And even get to watch your guys wrestle a little bit. That was a bonus for me. And some of these are like the best wrestlers on the world. It's pretty cool. So thank you for having us. Yeah, no, thanks for coming down and, yeah, setting it all up. And, yeah, I'm grateful. So I want to go back to a moment in your career.

Starting point is 00:03:09 I love thinking about, like, chosen suffering, as you would say. And this is, you're driving from Syracuse to Iowa, okay? You're a wrestler. Iowa is, like, known as the place. And you said it was a soul cleanser. You said, I collapsed in my car outside the arena. This is after your very first workout. I think you wanted to be a walk-on, right?

Starting point is 00:03:31 University of Iowa playing for a wrestling for a legendary coach. And then you said, I couldn't stop crying. What happened like in that moment? Take me back to that time, why you chose to go to Iowa, and then what happened after that first day practicing, trying to get through a workout? Yeah. So in seventh grade, kind of the dream started, right? I got caught from the basketball team.

Starting point is 00:03:57 which I thought I was sweet and I wasn't. And my coach, Mr. O'Leary, basically said, you're aggressive, you foul a lot. You should probably try wrestling. And I was like, I'm not going to wrestle. The uniform threw me off a bit. So my brother started wrestling in ninth grade. He was two years older than me.

Starting point is 00:04:16 He said, so I come home for dinner and I let everybody know. I got cut from the basketball team. And, you know, Mom, there was seven of us. So Mom and Dad were kind of kind of a bit busy with, you know, just raising seven kids. Yeah. So my brother's like, you're going to wrestle. I'm like, I'll give it a try.

Starting point is 00:04:35 So I remember the first day in the room and I fell in love with it. So from that point forward, it was, what can I do to be the best wrestler possible? So it was, I changed some sports, you know, instead of playing football I tried in lacrosse. I ran cross country. I would run track. So everything was kind of focused on this, you know, what's going to make me. the best wrestler. So fast forward, I go to college. I choose Syracuse University. I'm living with my brother.

Starting point is 00:05:03 He and I are teammates. We're wrestling a weight class apart. He's not one of the top attorneys in the world. He's the chairman of a firm called DLA Piper, which is an intellectual property law firm. I always say when he was reading, I was running. He ran also, but so I tell me, read, read, read, read and Right, right. So I get to Syracuse and I'm there with my brother and things are going well. I'm happy. I'm happy. We're roommates. I am improving. But after my sophomore year, there was something, right, that was more important to me than just like being happy. I had lots of good friends on the team and things are going well, but I wanted more. And at the time, there was no internet. There were no cell phones. And the University of Iowa led by legendary coach Dan. Gable was winning year after year. They were producing national champs, world champs, Olympic champs. So it was for me kind of a just a logical for me, a very logical next step. Now the blessing in my life was at a family that was always uplifting. There was never, you can't do it. Don't think that

Starting point is 00:06:15 big. Think small-minded. It was never any of that. I never got any of that in my house. There was a lot of love. There's a lot of trust. There was a lot of chase your dreams. So, I talked to my brother. I'm like, I'm going to leave after my sophomore. I'm going to, I'm going to, go walk on. I was on a full ride at Syracuse. We didn't have a lot of money and money meant a lot at that time because we couldn't afford school. But I met with my brother, called my dad, called my mom, and just said, look, I'm going to leave. And they were like, let's go. Let's do it. There was no there was no, there was no, like, well, you're crazy. You know, what are you thinking? Why would you do that? It was, I love this sport. I want to be the best in the world out.

Starting point is 00:06:54 it and the facts said at that time in this sport you want to be under gable so I packed my car after this my classes ended my sophomore year and drove the University of Iowa so this whole cleansing part comes from I had a belief in myself I thought I was really fit I thought I was strong I thought I was technical I believed in my readiness so I get out there now I had spent summers out there yeah they had a really good wrestling camp which transforming as a person It was called the Iowa Intensive Wrestling Camp. It was one month, four workouts every day for one month. It was run by a guy named Jay Robinson, who was an Army Ranger.

Starting point is 00:07:33 And the purpose was to teach you what your capacity was, your work capacity was. So I learned the work-reward relationship at a very young age. In eighth grade, I did that. In ninth grade, I did that in 10th grade. So every summer I would go. So I knew the region a little bit. I'd run the streets a lot, these workouts, a lot of runs in it. So I got out to the University of Iowa.

Starting point is 00:07:52 I drive out there and I drove with a guy named Roy Saldger. But anyway, we get out there. I go to practice and I remember I'm sitting in the corner of the room and I know who Gable is because I went to the camps out there and I just, everyone knew who he was. If you were in wrestling, you knew who he was. Sure. So I'm sitting in the corner and he walks over to me. He said, who are you?

Starting point is 00:08:14 And I said, I'm Tom and I want to wrestle for you next year. So. Wait, so you hadn't talked to the coach? No, no, no, never. You just went there and said, you showed up. Just showed up. Never. I didn't know his number.

Starting point is 00:08:25 So there's a chance, though, you could have left the scholarship and not even got on the team. Yeah, there's a chance that he's going to say, you can't wrestle for me. I'm not going to get a fair chance. You know, but it's like what you're experiencing with what you're doing. You just love it. You're good at it. And I loved it. And I didn't want to, listen, at a young age, I knew I was going to, at some point I was going to die.

Starting point is 00:08:43 And I didn't want to be on my death bed thinking, why are you such a coward? Why was it in all the things that you could have done? you were fearful to take the chance. And I think my home really taught me to take chances, you know, to take risk, to be, to not be afraid of failing. So I get out there, I'm in the corner, he walks over to me, he says, who are you? And I said, I'm Tom. And he said this, he said, you're not going to get any better sitting there.

Starting point is 00:09:13 That was the first thing you said to me, go wrestle with these two brothers. They were the Steiner brothers. Yeah. Who, I didn't know them, no of them. again there was no internet now everybody knows everybody right every i can watch anything i want any any team i want so so i'm thinking to myself i'm going to whip these two they were small than me i looked at least i felt like looking at them eyeing them up i'm bigger than these two watch this and the intensity of the workout was overwhelming for me uh what i thought i knew i realized i didn't know

Starting point is 00:09:47 So we're drilling. We're just kind of sparring, getting ready, what I thought was practice. So about an hour into the drill, I'm exhausted. I'm spent, physically spent. And I remember Gable yelling time, the room was filled with people. I was just in a group of three, the two Steiner's and me. And he yells time. And I thought, that was really, like, that was, that was really hard. And then he said these words, and this is true. It's not for the drama effect. The words were, are you warm? Good warm up coach. And I'm thinking to myself, this is going to be terrible.

Starting point is 00:10:23 Like there's nothing I can do. You know, there's nothing I can do because they're fresh and I'm not. I'm going to get killed here. So for the first five minutes of live, it went okay. And then the next hour was what I would refer to as, you know, a brutal beating that if my mom was in the stands, she would have said we're going home. No one's doing that to my little boy, you know, even though I'm a college sophomore. And it's when I knew, it's when I knew I was in the right place.

Starting point is 00:10:53 It's when I knew I made the right decision. So I was honestly too tired to even pick my head up because in wrestling, you're getting pulled on a lot. So your neck muscles, your traps, your back, your lower back, your hamstrings, just go. And when they go, there's not a lot you can do about it. So I literally remember grabbing my stuff like this. And I couldn't even look up. and I walked up the staircase in Carverhawk Arena. I got into my Red Ford escort GT.

Starting point is 00:11:21 And it was a summer day. It was June. It was a summer day. It was really hot. And I'm sitting in the car. And I just remember just crying. Probably 15 minutes. I sat there and just bawled in the parking lot.

Starting point is 00:11:32 I was beaten terribly. I was kind of embarrassed. And it was like it was a line in the sand moment for me where are you going or staying? Yeah. Because I could have turned around. I could have went right back. But it was this sense of knowing that you were in the right place. I'm in the right place.

Starting point is 00:11:51 This is exactly what I needed. And I'm grateful. So I go back to Roy says, I stayed in my car a little bit for a few nights. I started to make some friends. A buddy let me stay. Not a buddy, but a friend of one of the guys, you let me stay in this place. And I remember going back there. And then when you have truth, you either ignore it, which just happens a lot.

Starting point is 00:12:12 right or you live in it and I lived in it and my thinking was okay they felt stronger than me they felt they were certainly more fit than me and they were tougher than me how can I how can I and they were more skillful than me like in every category I was beat so you know you just attack one at a time so you feel sorry for yourself for a little bit you take a nap and I went back to the wrestling room and got on the treadmill and ran and the next morning I came back in and lifted and the next day they were there the two brothers and I'm like, what do you think happened? I wrestled them again.

Starting point is 00:12:45 The same thing happened. You get killed again? Again. Like one run and one lift doesn't help anything. Yeah, yeah. And I stayed. And I just, you know, the way Gables said it was, I just kept coming back, you know, and you know the power and just keep coming back, keep coming back. And before long, I just had dinner with those two three nights ago.

Starting point is 00:13:04 Oh, really? In Vegas. Yeah. The Steiner brothers. They're amazing, amazing human beings. Terry is now the head coach of the women's Olympic team. And Troy's coaching was. in Wisconsin.

Starting point is 00:13:13 But ultimately, that level of a beating ended, and then you start to make progress. Yeah. And you hold on to the smallest nugget when you're fighting for your life, you hold on, which is what I was doing. You hold on to this is the smallest nugget. And the smallest nugget was, I touched his leg.

Starting point is 00:13:30 Right? He started to beat me up at the 15-minute mark, not the 10-minute mark. I got one takedown. I gave up only 10 takedowns and not 50 takedowns. And your brain just, when you're,

Starting point is 00:13:41 trying finding ways to survive and progress, you just hold on to any truth nugget you can. That is an improvement. It wasn't I had to beat them. It was I'm closing the gap. And ultimately, I closed the gap and made the team. What was it in you? Was it from your parents, your, your siblings that said, because a lot of people, you know this, they face that first day. And they're like, all right. Yeah. Like, I'm still good at Syracuse. I'm still really good. I can go have an amazing career on scholarship. I don't need this.

Starting point is 00:14:16 I don't need to put myself through all this. What is it like in you or put in you through your family? Is it genetic? Is it nature versus nurture? I'm curious where it comes from to say, no, no, no, no, no. That's actually the right place where I'm getting beat up every day. That's where I want to be.

Starting point is 00:14:30 You know, I see it in the elite eyes I've ever coached. There's certainly an element of competitive spirit. You know, Coach Meyer, Urban Meyer, right? We call it that was his X factor. The most important thing was being like an eight type personality competitor that you know, even in second grade, you're on the playground. Oh yeah. You know, it's like if you lose, you're fighting somebody. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:14:51 Like, which I'm not condoning fighting, but like you just want to, you want to win. You want to win everything you do. And I think so. I definitely had that spirit. Yeah. I was small. You know, I wasn't a hawk. You know, I was a Ryan.

Starting point is 00:15:05 You know, my pop-up was a golden gloves champ, five foot one, Italian, you know, my grandpa. My dad was pretty big. My dad was big. But I didn't get that size. And I had tried so many sports. And the reality was I wanted to be great at something. I wanted to be elite at something. And by trial and error, it was almost trial and error. And it wasn't like, you know, someone boxing me in a corner and saying, soccer player, lacrosse player, which is easy to do these days. I wanted to be elite. I wanted to be great. And I knew, I simply knew that by trying all these other sports, it wasn't going to happen for me in those sports. I was, you know, in seventh grade, I was 75 pounds. You know, playing football against

Starting point is 00:15:44 someone who weighed 160. I actually played against Scotty Graham, who was a really good running back here for Ohio State. He's from the same neighborhood, basically I'm from a couple towns over. I played football against him. He ran over me at least 50 times. I was a cornerback. And I remember the coach grabbed my helmet and saying, dummy, tackle him. And as a young kid weighing 75 pounds, I remember thinking, he's got to weigh 180. I weigh 75. Why don't you tackle them? You know, like that was my...

Starting point is 00:16:13 So it just became, you know, and it was just a will to be great at something. And this was where my bread was going to be buttered. Wrestling was going to be the sport. And I wasn't going to... I wasn't going to, as I said, I wasn't going to end my career, you know, with not knowing how high I could climb.

Starting point is 00:16:30 And the only way to learn how high can climb around people that are the best. Are the best. Are soaring. Yeah. And I just inserted myself into a world of people that were really, really elite at what they did. And then it should be a good follower.

Starting point is 00:16:43 Yeah. Right? Forget leading. Just follow. Follow the one that's doing things the right way. And they're really shining. And that place was loaded with those people. Well, it's funny, that's actually one of the traits of the,

Starting point is 00:16:55 I've done this for a decade we were talking about before. 630 plus. Most of them were pretty good followers at some point. And at regular points, they're learning leaders. That's what the name of the show is like they're constantly learning. And one of the guys, that you learned from, I would imagine. And even non-wrestlers have heard of Dan Gable, right?

Starting point is 00:17:14 That's who you chose to go. I'm a football, baseball, basketball, in high school. So I didn't, I saw the wrestlers. I admired them from afar. I didn't go in the room that much, though. Those guys are crazy, right? You guys have to be a little bit crazy. Anyway, Dan Gable, you go to wrestle for him.

Starting point is 00:17:28 What, and now you're, you know, kind of like the version of him in college wrestling as a coach. Yeah. What, I mean, there's probably books worth of stuff, but what are some of the things you picked up from playing for one of the, maybe the greatest wrestling coach of all time. Yeah, yeah. And I know, I'll backtrack for one second.

Starting point is 00:17:43 Like, I think football's crazy. I love football. I'm a diehard college football fan. Yeah. And, you know, even when I tried football, it was like, wrestling, he's your size. You know where he is. Like, you're as a quarterback. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:18:00 You get surprised sometimes. So I say wrestling is contact. Yeah. Football's impact. Okay. I like contact. Like, I doesn't make sense. me. To run into another human being full speed makes no sense to me at all. Okay. But I love it.

Starting point is 00:18:13 I love it. Yeah. So, so are the lessons from him, I mean, just so many. I think, I think, the first thing was, I would say, was his emotional control. I mean, he wasn't a yeller. He wasn't a screamer. You know, I think people think that, you know, that's a trait you have to have in order to get someone to listen to you. Yeah. So I think the reason why he didn't need to yell was his competence. He was so competent. Like, you know, Immediately walking in the room, you know, for me, there's, there's, there's, there's, I didn't know Jesus that well at the time. I know him better now. Yeah. But I would have said, there's Jesus and Gable, you know, so, so, so his, he, he was just so competent. He, you know,

Starting point is 00:18:53 he was Olympic champion, world champion. Yeah. He had coach, every team he ever coached, won the big tens, 26 straight. I think he won maybe 19 national titles. I lost track at some point. But his word was the law for me, whatever he said, I listened to. He knew the habits of the elite. He'd coached so many elites. So he knew exactly how an elite person acts and trains. Like I said, his emotional control was really good. He was honest.

Starting point is 00:19:23 Yeah. You know, it was never personal. You know, like he would focus on the situation and not, you was a, he just never attacked you personally. You never felt attacked. It was just bluntly your single leg needs improvement. Let's work in these positions. And so, you know, managing a team.

Starting point is 00:19:41 I watch how we manage people. I watched his loyalty. I watched his structure of a season. You know, I would have thought it would have been a lot more going there. I thought it was being a lot more militaristic. Yeah. You know, like, this is what you do in the morning. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:19:55 You know exactly what I say. And it was a lot of freedom, which was a blessing. So we had a perfect amount. You know, they say, you know, on the West Coast, you have freedom on the right coast. you have accountability, right? And it's just, it's this matching of the two that are just so critically important. Too much freedom, not good. I don't want to say too much accountability, but you can drive someone crazy with discipline and rituals and rules. Yeah. So you just need this happy. I mean, you're raising five daughters so you know. Yeah. And raising four children, there's a,

Starting point is 00:20:26 there's a happy medium. Being at 6 p.m. and put yourself on the table when you're a junior in high school is going to make them nuts. Yeah. Come in whenever you want. I don't care what you do. Isn't healthy for them either. So it's just this happy meeting. And I think under Coach Gable, I just saw this really good combination of freedom and intensity and discipline. So those are just some of the things that, you know, and of course he was good to me. I was a walk on. The guy in my weight at the time, he was in my weight class at the Nationals that year. When I was at Syracuse, he was fifth. I didn't place. I knew he was there. He was in my weight. And he gave me a fair chance. which I really appreciate it.

Starting point is 00:21:08 You know, he had someone that was doing well. And so just, you know, I think his treatment of me as a person. And, you know, in seeing my love for the sport, he allowed me to be in his room. What made you, once you got done. Yeah. As a wrestler, what made you want to coach? It's kind of funny. You know, it wasn't like I was.

Starting point is 00:21:29 I'm not from it like as, you know, this coaching tree. Yeah. You know, my dad and his dad and his dad's dad. I was good at wrestling. I honestly never thought about coaching until the Big Ten's my senior year. So at the Big Ten championships, he coached from Indiana, Dwayne Goldman, who was an all the former Iowa wrestler. He was coaching in Indiana.

Starting point is 00:21:51 He approached me the Big Ten's. He said, if you thought about coaching, we need someone your weight. I was a minute. I was a 158 pounder. But we're interested in you. Would you come in for an interview? And I said, let me get through the Big Ten, through the Enceles, and I'll think about it. And so I was the first time I thought about it.

Starting point is 00:22:07 but it was natural. It was natural. It was a space. I've spent so much time in my life. I had so many hours logged in the sport that it became, yeah, let me give this a try. So I, that's how I got in the coaching. It was, you know, it was, opportunity was there and a door opened and I was ready to kind of have kept going since. Kept going, yeah. So I was, that was 1992. Wow. So I was an assistant coach for two years. Met my wife at IU when I was coaching there. So that was great. She was back from school and living in the community, which she grew up. And then I coach at Hofstra for 11 years as a head coach. I think I was 25 when I became a head coach at Hofstra. I wish I wasn't ready for. Yeah. Um, trial by fire. So I was there for 11. And then by God's grace, the Ohio

Starting point is 00:22:53 university job opens up. And I'm coaching for 11 years. And I got a shot at it. And the way the interview process went. And, you know, I believe, I believe emphatically that God wanted me here. The interview process is fascinating, not only for coaches and for wrestling, but for anybody. I think anybody can learn. Why do you think they picked you? What was it? Like, what happened? Can you even like remember the process or who you talked to or what you said? I'm curious what made him because they could probably pick anybody, right? It's why I was state. Yeah. Well, at the time, at the time they picked me, I thought it was because my interview was the best. It was not. You're saying? But as time went on, I became friends with the people that hired me. I wasn't their first choice. You know, so that's

Starting point is 00:23:35 Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is fine. You know, I don't care if you. I mean, I wasn't Gable's choice at all. Yeah. He didn't pick me. I picked him.

Starting point is 00:23:43 Yeah. You know, so it didn't bother me at all that, that, you know, they like this guy, Kail Sanderson who, yeah, who has rewritten history books. They liked Tom Brands, who was a teammate of mine who's now the head coach at Iowa. Yeah. They liked Terry Brands, who was actually in the interview process. He and I were roommates for three years. But ultimately, I would.

Starting point is 00:24:05 say, I would say why. So I still get to a certain point to be in the mix, right? And the why was to the name of your podcast, right? I was, I was a leader that had learned. I learned under the best. And that was Gable. So my connection with Gable automatically gave the people here a sense that he was around someone that was really good, even if he got the drippings of Gable's knowledge, that's going to be better than what most have seen. So that was a big piece of it. I was very prepared for the interview. I knew who was on the committee. You know, I put a detailed packet together.

Starting point is 00:24:41 And in the packet, I kind of laid out, I was, you know, I had a lot of good people in my inner circle. You know, what are concerns with Tom Ryan? Why not Tom Ryan? Yeah. So you attack your weaknesses, you know, with this is what. So I attack some weaknesses, not being from the state of Ohio. You know, there were some people in the interview process that were from the state of Ohio. So how do I combat that?

Starting point is 00:25:03 You know, laid out my plan. my success plan, you know, what first 30 days would look like. And ultimately, you know, I also talked a lot about my faith, which was ironic because I was really growing in my faith at that time. Yeah. This interview was a year after, you know, we had lost our five-year-old son. So I was really growing in my faith. And, you know, often they say, faith, don't bring that up in an interview. Like, that's just not part of the interview. But I can't lead and coach without and share without that, just an important part of who I am

Starting point is 00:25:36 and my belief system. So I shared some things about truth and love, which is a Jesus thing, a faith-based thing, some things that I shared. And ultimately, they just trust and believe that I could do the job. Yeah, you mentioned your son Teague.

Starting point is 00:25:53 He's right here behind me on the wall. I don't even know the best way to bring this up other than the fact, you know, you lose them at, at five years old. You know, I think anyone who's a mom or a dad is just like, oh, like it. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:26:10 We don't even, I have not experienced anything like that. Yeah. How does that change your family? How does it change you and your wife? How does it change you as a coach going through something that most of us can never even imagine? Well, I wasn't ready for it. Right. I don't know if you're ever ready for it.

Starting point is 00:26:27 No way. Yeah. You know, there's no way to be ready for, he was healthy. Yeah. He was a little beast. I mean, he could do eight pull-ups. He loved wrestling. You know, as we were talking early, as parents,

Starting point is 00:26:37 I'm assessing his foot speed and his balance, you know, at five. I've got him, you know, this is what he's going to do. You know, your mind starts to race. And he was the third son, my third son, Jordan was 11th at the time, Jake was eight, Teague was five and McKenzie was three. We were at the dinner table. It was President's Day, February 16, 2004. We had just come back from the wrestling room.

Starting point is 00:27:00 There's no school on President's Day. So I took the kids with me. We were together all day, laughing, playing in the wrestling room. We get home. He's at the dinner table. We're having dinner. He's chosen by us to shower first, and he's pissed. So he gets stuff from the table, and he starts running around.

Starting point is 00:27:16 My wife's chasing him. We're laughing. Get him, get him, get him. It was this beautiful moment. It was this incredible moment in our home. It was an incredible day. It was an incredible dinner. And everything was just great.

Starting point is 00:27:30 My team was doing well. Life was great. You know, we had just put a pool in the backyard. We were, we had, we, we had air conditioning home now. We each had our own car. You know, like just simple things in life that you celebrate. Yeah. You know, I was raised with no air conditioning.

Starting point is 00:27:44 It was air conditioning. We had window fans. And people are like, what's a window fan? I'm like, you know what a window fan is? It's a fan in the window. It blows whatever temperatures outside, inside. That's what you get. You know, so, so we, we were just living a family life.

Starting point is 00:28:00 of just celebrating, you know, I know you're going through with your five girls and you're going to events and meets and things. It's just so much fun. Yeah. So we're just in the midst of this amazing time. So to have this happen out of nowhere, it was an explosion, right, in the house, right? He died of a massive heart attack. He just, at five years old, kids don't die of heart attacks, right? He had a genetic disorder we found out that was passed on a gene, passed from me to him that, that is, that children need this gene until they're about 10, they said. And then at 10, another gene steps in. And it's just, it's, it's for successful heart function.

Starting point is 00:28:41 He didn't have that gene. So when he was, he was startled, his, his heart reacted in a way that it shouldn't react. So my wife kind of startled him. He was coming around the corner. She was hiding. She startled him. I watched it. She picked him up.

Starting point is 00:28:55 And it was just a typical, like a boo. Yeah. You don't expect me to be there. And there you are. Yeah. So she picked him up. And I know, I know in fact, without question, when she picked him up, I'm watching. His head's hanging.

Starting point is 00:29:06 We had two Yorkies. They were jumping up at him. And I remember thinking his head looks funny to me. Like what? You know, but, you know, mothers are born to hold babies. Right. But mothers are born to do a lot of other things too. But they're a baby holding masters.

Starting point is 00:29:22 Absolutely. So I didn't say anything. She gets to the back of the house and she starts screaming. So I run in the back of the house. I grabbed Teague. I put him on the coffee table. He has no pulse. His eyes are old back in his head.

Starting point is 00:29:34 And she calls 911 in for about 12 minutes. You know, I'm pumping on his chest, I'm breathing in his mouth. I'm doing CPR. And I couldn't save him. At one point, I heard, I thought the ambulance was coming. So I picked him up. I ran him out of the house, ran him up the street to the corner to get him in the ambulance faster.

Starting point is 00:29:50 It wasn't an ambulance. It was a cop on a call for another reason. I run him back to the house, keep doing it. They finally come in. The EMTs finally come in. run some tests on them, throw them in the ambulance. My wife and I filed the ambulance to the hospital. And, you know, something we had never done before in our, at the time, 11 years of marriage, 12 years of marriage was pray together. You know, we held the hands. I did two things. I called my older brother.

Starting point is 00:30:17 That's now the attorney and said, listen, something happened. We're on the way to the hospital. Teags in the in the ambulance. Here's where we're going. Let the family know. And my wife and I started to pray together. He's in surgery for about an hour and a half. My whole family's gathered now. We're waiting in the lobby. And I remember the surgeon coming out. I remember I'm not looking up.

Starting point is 00:30:40 I remember I'm looking down. I'm like, oh, man, why is he looking down? Sorry. Sorry. Damn. You don't have to be sorry, man. You know, anybody watching, I know that anyone that's been through anything traumatic,

Starting point is 00:31:31 just the memory of it can take you back. there instantly, right? So I'm instantly brought back to that moment. So, you know, he just said, we're sorry, you know, we're sorry. We couldn't save them. And so, you know, grief isn't something that I ever experienced, you know. So, so, and the disbelief and the pain. So we get in the car, my wife and I were driving back. It was about 14 miles, 14 minutes back to our house. My children and we're waiting at the house. My 11, 8-year-old and 3-olds, so we pull in the driveway.

Starting point is 00:32:11 And I remember, as we pulled in, my kids came running out of the driveway, running out of the front door and down to the car. And my 8-year-old son, Jake, asked, you know, as many people as you've interviewed and as many amazing people I've met in my life, a lot of them just say, what's the key to this long-term success?

Starting point is 00:32:33 We know there's a lot of pieces to it, but one of them is common sense. I'm just using common sense. And my eight-year-old son asked a common sense question, which was where is Teague? Now, I was 36 at the time. My wife was 35. If he would have asked me the name of every supporter,

Starting point is 00:32:53 if he would have asked me the tendencies, every guy in my team, technical tendencies, why I bought the truck I'm in, why we moved to the house we moved to, why I left Syracuse and went to Iowa, I could have answered. But he asked me a question, I didn't know. I was 36 leading a family of four. I didn't know where he was. So my, in that moment, my life's

Starting point is 00:33:13 mission went to, where is he? What are the possibilities? And I dove into that. So there was a lot of grief. There was a lot of fighting. I'd like to say that our marriage was this, this perfect, this perfect in-unison couple grieving together. It wasn't that. It was rough. and it was ugly at times. And the three surviving, you know, a lot of times, all the interviews you've done a lot of times, the three surviving children struggle. They struggle for extended periods of time

Starting point is 00:33:48 because they're forgotten to some degree because people aren't strong enough to get over their grief. And I think we made the decision early on that wasn't going to be us, but there was a lot of struggle in the house. We got help. And we fought.

Starting point is 00:34:02 We fought to stay together. Right? We fought to raise a family. we fought for it and my faith journey began and I basically took a piece of paper and the thinking was simply where could he be well there's two places either it's over and you live and die and that you're you're created by by chance to some degree it's just a random something happened and we're here or there's a god that loves us and I I dove deeply into both so all of my free time was was was focused on where's Teague? And I studied it intensely. And I got an answer. And I decided.

Starting point is 00:34:45 You know, I think a lot of times we get answers and we don't decide, you know, you have to make the decision. And the decision was, God is real and I'm going to follow him. And that's where Teague is. And I say this to a lot of people have said to me, well, it was probably because, you know, not whether, and listen, whether I was agnostic. I wasn't, I wasn't even agnostic. I think I believed, I just wouldn't bit my life on it. I was raised Catholic. I went to church every week. I knew there was something. But I never put enough focus into it to say, I would die for this. I believe this so strongly, I would die for it. And now, you know, I'm in that place where I actually absolutely would. I believe that it's truth. So I chased truth. I didn't chase God. I chased

Starting point is 00:35:25 truth. And I found. And I'm happy to say now that the place I'm in right now, so we're 21 years removed from that day, that February 16th day. It was 21 years that February 16th, 2025. We lost Teague in 2004. I know where my life is now. And I can only say where it is based on what I chose. Now, if I would have chose no God, I would like to say I'd be in the same place. But I don't know that. I only know what I know. And the truth is, I'm where I'm at. My kids are where they're at. My wife is in the place. She's at. Our marriage is in the place because I chose to follow God. I believe that emphatically. The word choosing and chosen has come up. By the way, thank you for sharing that. I really, really appreciate that. Chosen suffering is like your ethos. Is you,

Starting point is 00:36:22 it's the title of your book. It's a big thing. Can you go deeper on that ethos of yours of what chosen suffering is all about? Yeah. So it's interesting. I'm sure when you you just started playing a football and quarterback and your family in the sports, for me when I got into wrestling, it wasn't chosen suffering. Yeah. Like I was a seventh grader. But I don't know. Wrestling kind of is a chosen suffering thing.

Starting point is 00:36:43 It is. It is for sure. But, you know, cross-country. You know, we've talked about you and I talk about Prefontein and all his great quotes and just being able to, being able to do things that are unbelievably, hard, right? Now, chosen suffering. So I came up with the term chosen suffering. Not when I was in seventh grade, you know, when I got involved in wrestling, not when I was at this intensive camp, not when you're in the middle of a 10-mile run. But I came up with the thought of chosen

Starting point is 00:37:17 suffering after the loss of Teague, which was unchosen suffering. So I didn't label, I didn't label all this work to be the best at what you do as chosen suffering until I experienced. And experienced unchosen suffering, which are all the things in life that bring you to your knees. Wrestling has never brought me to my knees. Now look, I was crying for 15 minutes. I've cried a lot. I've gotten beaten to my knees. But it never took me to a place of begging for mercy. I never got there in wrestling. I wanted to be really good at it. I wanted to be elite at it. but at no time did it make me think at a much, much deeper level about life. And when I lost Teague in 2004, that I referred to as unchosen suffering, right?

Starting point is 00:38:09 All these things, again, that happened that you didn't ask for. I didn't want that. And there's a lot of things that happen every day in our lives and everyone, our friend's lives, right? There's a little boy right now named Oscar. You might have seen the story in the news. his grandfather and I are friends. Oscar was attacked by pit bulls on his front lawn. He's nine years old.

Starting point is 00:38:30 He got mulled by pitfalls. That is not something, right, that you would ever ask. That's unchosen suffering. But the world's full of it. So when I was dropped to my knees by the loss of Teague, that was unchosen. And it made me think about all the things that I chose that were really hard, but didn't really, they transformed me. to some degree, but not my faith.

Starting point is 00:38:57 And my book was kind of a faith. It's kind of a faith journey. I know, it's kind of a, you know, it's a lot about leadership and learning, but it's also a lot about, you know, coming to your belief system as you walk along Earth, right? Which is, to me, the number one decision we all make,

Starting point is 00:39:14 more than anything. You know, I would have said, it's who you're going to marry, who you're going to spend the rest of your life with, what's your profession you're going to be, what sport you're going to choose. Oh, there's so many big decisions we make and little ones. But the number one decision we make is to decide your belief system.

Starting point is 00:39:29 Is there a God or not a God? So it was, yeah, a lot of, a lot of struggle. So unchosen suffering gave me the, you know, is unchosen and chosen. And there's no question that people that climb really high, throw themselves into the fire. You know, I think you just do it. You have a belief. It feels like, too, I'd be curious because like, you know, again, I've had the bonus now to get to sit here and watch some of the best wrestlers in the world work out, you know,

Starting point is 00:39:58 with you, you know, kind of commentating. It's the coolest thing ever. I'm curious, like, what, what do those guys that we just watched? Like, what do they have, they all seem to have in common that the ones who aren't quite as great? Yeah. Almost a difference between good and great. They aren't quite as great. Like, what do they have that the others don't?

Starting point is 00:40:20 Yeah. So I would say, I think, in all studies. in all studies ever performed on elite behavior, whether it's Zweck, was it, Zweck and in Gawdston. He studied it in 1869, I believe, and Zweck in 19, no, in 2018. So in 1869, it was studied Galton in 2017. I think she wrote her book. And there was commonalities in it. And one is an ungodly effort.

Starting point is 00:40:52 effort. So in both studies, effort was incredibly important. And I think effort stems from, I think, I think effort over time is a, is a, is a, is a, is a product of deep love. Yes. And chosen suffering is about deep love, right? We call it chosen suffering is a fancy word for love, because you will suffer the most for the things you love the most, right? If one of your girls has an issue, you are standing in front of her in an instant to help her and protect her. So you would die for any one of them, right? That's chosen suffering. So, um, so yeah, um, I lost my train of thought a little bit. Well, no, we're talking about like some of the, or what they had, their traits. Yeah, the commonalities between the, the elite of the elite versus the ones who are just good. So deep love, effort,

Starting point is 00:41:40 effort, you know, efforts given to the things you love the most, a skill, a high, a high capacity to learn and skill. I think something, you know, another thing is just, um, effort and skill of the two. Yeah. Are the two biggest effort and skill. But then you have this capacity to live in truth. Yeah. To really be honest with yourself and be okay with it.

Starting point is 00:42:02 It's really strong self-assessment. Yeah. And then the capacity, the discipline to do it daily all the time to work on your shortcomings and really be good enough to look in the mirror and say, I love you, but you got some problems? Yeah. Yeah. You know? The best of the best also I found, whether even in business,

Starting point is 00:42:21 I ran sales teams in corporate America. The good ones, like let's say the good reps I had, they were like, hey, can you just let me do my thing, leave me alone. The great ones, give it to me. I need some, I need some feedback. I want feedback every day, all the time, every call. And it feels like, I mean, it's happening right now as we speak. Like the great ones want feedback. The coachability is just a big deal.

Starting point is 00:42:45 Being coachable and wanting, you know, it's funny. Most people want to be coached until they're getting coached. They're like, ah, coach, chill out. Easy, easy, easy. But I think there's also an art. I think there's an art in when to coach. And, you know, it's like, you know, don't beat them too much when they're down. You know, we was saying in your hard on self, not down on self, which is a bill to lead,

Starting point is 00:43:04 you know, build to lead. I got a really good friend, Chet Scott. That'd be a great interview. He's a superstar leader. Yeah. He's helped me a lot. But we talked about be hard on self, not down on self. Down doesn't get you.

Starting point is 00:43:14 It'll be hard on yourself. But guys that are hard on themselves is really good. But then they can look. Wait, what's the difference between being hard on yourself and being down on yourself? I know it's playing words a bit, but it's like, you know, it's like you can be so hard on yourself that you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you know, it's like, that's, that's down. That's down. You know, like, like, be hard on yourself.

Starting point is 00:43:34 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have high standards. Have high standards. And strive to live up to that. Yes. But, but don't get down.

Starting point is 00:43:39 Yeah. You know, because down, you know, just be hard. Yeah. So, so, um, a lot of the guys, you know, just really hard on themselves. Yeah. You know, and then we do a good job and make sure they're not getting down on themselves. Huh. Because down on yourself leads you to a path.

Starting point is 00:43:51 that you don't want to be in that path, you know? The other thing where you were, you were, point out your coaches. Yeah. And you look at your career as a wrestler, like your whole staff, starting with you, are all killers, like great, great, great wrestlers. And in my sport, there are some of the best coaches that didn't even, like, play. Like, they didn't even make it to college or certainly not to pros. I played for coaches who didn't.

Starting point is 00:44:17 And at times, it's like, they can still be good coaches. Yeah. You know, it doesn't feel like that's the case. Maybe it's just your program and others, but like Dan Gable is a great wrestler, like you're a great wrestler, every guy in your staffs, an absolute killer wrestler. What is it about wrestling where it's almost like the guys aren't going to listen to them if they weren't all Americans? Like, is that what it is?

Starting point is 00:44:37 Like, what is it's interesting you bring this up. And it's a really interesting, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, just got good awareness of, of that fact in wrestling. And I think it's, I think it's to, to a detriment. Huh. I think it's to a detriment. So, you know, I've talked to football coaches. You just don't go from playing football to being a head football coach.

Starting point is 00:44:55 No. I mean, you heard me. I was two years of an assistant. Yeah. And I'm a head coach. And I think wrestling is in this realm of, of, you had to be a master at it. Yeah. If you're going to help me.

Starting point is 00:45:09 You know, and I had to watch you. And then there's some degree of you have to be able to beat me. Huh. You know, like, you have to whip me. If you can't whip me, then you can't help me. When you were 25, could you beat everybody on the team? Yeah. Really?

Starting point is 00:45:23 Like, you still would beat everybody. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I could, I would, yeah. When did that go away? Probably in my 30, you know, early 30s. So, maybe five or six years after being here, it started to get a little bit. So when you got to Ohio State, you're still killing everybody. I couldn't beat Kyle Snyder.

Starting point is 00:45:38 You know, there was some guys I couldn't beat. Did you actually wrestle him? Yeah, but what I could do, and I wrestled live with him. He was big. But what I could do is I could challenge them. Yeah. I could challenge them. And maybe we wouldn't go live, but we would.

Starting point is 00:45:49 spar and I would get them in positions and you you actually it's kind of like playing with your kid on the floor your relationship blossoms right when you're just on the floor with your child right they know they never forget right they talk about right they know now the brain from zero to one how critically important that that phase is in a person's life yeah so um so wrestling's kind of that way um um now i can't whip anybody anymore you know i'm coming through i was but a horrific car act I can't really move that well. And it hurts the connection personally. You know, you still look like you could beat everybody. But I can't. I can't. My, my grandmother used to tell my grandfather, he can't lick a stamp anymore. And that's kind of where I'm at. I can't look a stamp.

Starting point is 00:46:36 You know, so, so it is a unique difference because a lot of the best football coaches, you know, listen, no football coach is trying to tackle their running back or trying to defend their quarterback from throwing a ball to the wide receiver. But in wrestling, there's kind of this right of path. And the thing is, in wrestling needs, you know, they need to grow from this standpoint that just because you can wrestle doesn't mean you're going to be a great coach. Yeah. And it sets the sport back a little bit when you think you can. And it's set up that way.

Starting point is 00:47:05 Yeah. So you come out of college as an elite wrestler and you think you can coach. Well, you don't think about coaching. You know about wrestling. In fact, you know about being selfish. More than anything, you know about being somewhat selfish because it takes that, right? To be an elite competitor. you have to have a bit of that in you.

Starting point is 00:47:22 So, yeah, so that's just the reality of... For example, in the world of professional selling, it's like background after I got done playing football, a lot of times if you're like in the top of the stack rankings, they have stack rankings that come out every day of who sells the most, right? Those people get to interview to become a manager, right? But oftentimes that person may get the job and they're actually not a very good manager.

Starting point is 00:47:46 They're not like good at teaching others to do it I'm curious how in wrestling, since it seems like the majority of the coaches, or at least the great coaches, were great wrestlers. And football and other sports, that's not the case. So I really am trying to come up with a portable lesson here for the business world of how you get people who are the best at it to actually then become not only good, still good as a wrestler, but good at teaching others and lifting others up and helping them become better at the craft, the better at the thing that they're doing. when before maybe they were just selfish and just good for themselves but not good at teaching others. Yeah, I think so. We're talking about leadership. I think leadership is three, you know, there's a lot.

Starting point is 00:48:26 I think it's three-pronged for me. I like the simplicity of it for me is three-pronged. The first is they come out as great wrestlers, but the first, I think, trait is example. So I think example is the first trait. I think that all leaders are. And they walk the walk. you know so so so so i've been in this sport long enough to know that these are the areas that you've got to be really good at and then you you so by example right you just you display example but you challenge them

Starting point is 00:48:56 in in these ways so examples first and then i think the second thing is we call you know sharing truth and love you know which is which is it sounds easy but you know too much truth and you're you're patronizing me you know or you're offending me like it's offensive like you're coming at me really hard here. And too much love, you're patronizing me. Stop it. Give me the truth. Hit me, hit me harder.

Starting point is 00:49:22 You know, so I think just being able to honestly, authentically, share strengths and weaknesses with your staff is really important. And here's where you've got to grow. You know, so I think being able to do that is really important. And then the last one is embracing, you know, embracing pain and suffering, you know, which is, you know, listen, we're going to, we're going to make decisions that weren't right, you know, and we're going to accept them and we're going to, you know, grow from them. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:49:48 And as being someone that isn't your fault, it was my fault, you know. So I think those are the three of the things that I think about constantly, constantly with my staff and how I can help them. And then I empower them. Yeah. You empower them. It's like, you know, I'm not afraid that a student athlete might say on ESPN one night that Jay Jaggers was the difference in my wrestling career.

Starting point is 00:50:13 I want them to say that. It's not to be the time. It's not the time Ryan show. It's Jay Jaggers. It's Bo Jordan. It's Logan Steber. And it's kind of like in wrestling. It's kind of like a positional coach.

Starting point is 00:50:24 You probably had a quarterback coach. Yep. You know, they're positional coaches. So they're weight coaches. And I don't box them into one weight or two or three weights, but they build a rapport with a student athlete typically around their size because they work with them. So it's, you know, it's empowering them too and giving them responsibility and having, you know, not being a control freak where I've got to do everything and everything's got to run through me.

Starting point is 00:50:48 Like, I trust you. I trust your decision making. Make the decision. Yeah. So I think those are some of the things I think that, you know, and then I think great coaches are, you know, the three Cs, you know, we call them. Yeah. You know, competence. They're really competent from a skill standpoint.

Starting point is 00:51:06 So I want to be around someone that can teach skill. And I've coached them enough and watched them wrestle enough. They understand the positions. Right. So they're really competent when it comes to the skills of the sport. They're just great people. So they're connectors, right? The other C, the second C, is being a good connector connecting with people.

Starting point is 00:51:24 It's not just transactional, you know, which I'm sure is, you know, a big management selling. And then character. You know, they all have great character. If any one of them was behaving in a way that I would get rid of them, I'd get rid of them. Because, you know, I think deep in deep in this in my student athlete's souls, they want to be around people that are making good choices. Making them better people. Making them better people. I think at the core, we want that.

Starting point is 00:51:55 Well, it's part of like trust, part of a trusting relationship is, I think, first and foremost, high character and high competence. You've got to have both. I think you've got to have both. If you want a trusting relationship, you've got both of those things at least that, okay, you know, what he's talking about. And I have no doubt in his character and who he is as a person. And I feel like that's like how big time championship cultures are built from high character and high competent staffs. I'm curious for you as the CEO technically of the Ohio State Wrestling program that like how do you create an environment where it's safe and not only safe but you make it

Starting point is 00:52:38 known that you want feedback, that you want coaches, player or wrestlers or others to provide. Because, like, you're not perfect. You know this, right? Like, you need feedback too. But sometimes people aren't good at creating the environment where people feel safe. Like, oh, that Tom Ryan, he's intimidating. I don't know. He was a tough guy.

Starting point is 00:52:58 Maybe I try to couch it and not make it real. But that's not going to make you better. You need the real feedback. So how do you create the environment where people can do that? Yeah, that's a great question. I think the key to that is vulnerability. I think the leader being vulnerable that I've made choices that I regret. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:53:16 That I'm not perfect. That I've failed many times. You know, that I want your feedback, that I care about your opinion. You know, I think it's, I think it's, I think if you come off as a stoic perfectionist that has never failed in any way, I think one people can see through it. Yeah. You know, because that's just, it's never happened, except for once, you know, my opinion. One person's lived to be the image of God, and that was God.

Starting point is 00:53:46 Certainly not me. So, I think, I think that's a big thing. You know, I ask her feedback. You know, we have, I hired an outside guy to help me with the leadership. Oh, really? So, yeah, so I hired this guy named Chet Scott. He does a lot of the teams here now. I met him through a common friend.

Starting point is 00:54:01 I went to work out with them first because, like you, like my lens, my lens is, is, is, my lens is very focused on what I'm looking for. I know what I'm looking for. And I know what I want to be around. I mean, even from seventh grade, like I have this sense of this is who I want to be near. And I met Chet and I worked out with Chet. And the first thing I'll do with someone before I'll ever hire them,

Starting point is 00:54:20 the first thing I'll do before I ever buy a piece of machinery is I use it. Yeah. I test it. So I met with this guy, Chet's guy who owns a company called Bill to Lead. I worked out with him in the morning. And the first thing I want to know is the dude tough. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 00:54:34 Like, is it tough? because I don't want advice from someone who is telling me there, give me all this advice, but you're a cupcake. Like, I want a tough dude. Like, I want you to walk the wall. So I worked out with him first, and I was like, whoa, he looks like nothing, but he's tough. Okay. You know, he's the golfer.

Starting point is 00:54:51 So he swings the club. And he's really mentally tough. So I'm like, I'm interested. And then I went to watch him work with a leadership group. So I worked out with him first. He passed a test. And then it was all core. It was all core work.

Starting point is 00:55:06 This isn't about, you know, I mean, how, you know, like the power cleans and it. It was all core. And his core, we called his literal and literal and physical core, right? Your literal core, when I'm in a situation at a party and people are passing around and join, am I going to take it or not? No, I'm in my core is strong. Yeah. I don't care.

Starting point is 00:55:23 I'm not doing. I'm going to leave the party, number one. Yeah. But if I don't leave the party, there's no way anybody can get me to do that. My core is strong. No, just try. No, I'm not doing it. Say the literal core and the physical core.

Starting point is 00:55:33 So I learned that and so I watched them and I watched him interact with people and it's like I want you to I want you to work with me. And so I worked with me and my team and that was been a big blessing for us as a team and me personally to hire someone that was in the business and could really challenge me. Yeah. I think I think that's another commonality of leaders who have sustained excellence that I've learned is this like yearning for coaching and feedback. and not thinking they've got it. I do this like a good boss or favorite boss and worst boss exercise. And one of the commonalities among like the worst bosses is they've got it all figured out. They've got all the answers.

Starting point is 00:56:15 They need no help. It's like that's like they always are in the worst versus the favorite bosses is always like growth focused, striving to get better, surround themselves to other people. I want to talk about like one other day that was monumental for you. And it's not that long ago, April 23rd, 2024, right? You're driving here. you're driving here early morning, right, probably getting ready to work out. What happened?

Starting point is 00:56:39 Yeah. So that was, yeah, that was probably as, and it's odd to say that as, as grief filled as I was when I lost my son. Yeah. This was a different experience. Yeah. But, but equally as challenging. When we lost tea, I was healthy. I was physically healthy.

Starting point is 00:57:00 I was mentally healthy. So I was able to cope with you have three children that are grieving, your wife's grieving, I was by no means ready for it, but I was better equipped. Equipped in some ways. And then when I hit this tractor trailer at full speed parked on the highway at 545 in the morning, one, I was not ready for that. And two, the physical trauma that occurred was surreal. And I wasn't ready.

Starting point is 00:57:32 I wasn't ready to deal with it. I wasn't ready emotionally. I think the reality of like, you know, you work out every day. Like the truth of having, I hadn't missed a workout. I would say maybe I went two days in my life since then, it without sweating. So now I'm four months in and I haven't sweat. Four months in your recovery? In our recovery.

Starting point is 00:57:51 I mean, I couldn't. What happened? What happened? So I basically saw, so, so there's a tractor trailer parked on the highway. I hit it at full speed. Just didn't see it? Never saw it. Never saw it.

Starting point is 00:58:00 I remember as I was singing. I know what I was doing. One, I was wide. awake and I know that from this aura ring. I track everything. It tracks my recovery, how much sleep I had. I was wide awake. I was drinking my morning drink, which was garlic, garlic, honey, lemon, and ginger root.

Starting point is 00:58:21 I mix it all together. And it's this drink I drink this morning, you know, this goofy drink that's going to keep you healthy. Yeah. So I was drinking a drink. I was singing, trusting God by elevation worship. I was watching the road I looked to my right

Starting point is 00:58:34 I remember changing lanes and that's the last thing I remember so I hit a full speed I basically I woke up from being cut out of the car I was unconscious but I heard the steel

Starting point is 00:58:47 I heard the saw cutting me out I remember saying where am I what happened I remember the EMT saying you were in a serious car accident and I remember saying please don't touch me

Starting point is 00:58:57 I'm in a lot of pain and that's the last thing I remember and I'm and then then I remember little glimpses of things about five days later I wake up I had two I had this the left leg was 10 hours the first surgery was 10 hours to repair the left leg the right leg was healthy but used to save the left leg they took an 11 inch by six inch by half inch piece of flesh off my quad just they took it right above the quad this guy's a genius doctor David Nash that was 12 hours surgery so day one was 10 Dr. Dr. Angela Collins is a genius. Thank God they were right here. Like the blessing that I was eight miles from the hospital. So Dr. Collins gets me in there. She does the rebuild of my left leg.

Starting point is 00:59:43 Dr. Nash protects a left leg with all this flesh and skin. I tore my shoulder. It's still torn. I tore my bicep off. Still torn. I'm just not ready. You have to go back in for more surgeries. But between the trauma and the pain and the last.

Starting point is 00:59:59 lack of, I was at a lack of hope, but I'd be to wrestle again through the lack of the natural endorphins of working out. I mean, I went into a terrible depression, which I'd never experienced depression. Like, I was sad when I lost my son, but I wasn't depressed. I don't want to die, you know, but in this, I was suicidal for a little bit. Like, really? Yeah, I got so low in such a bad place. I share it with my family. I'm like, listen, I, I'm in the unthinkable place. Like, I can't believe what my brain is thinking. And then this, right, this falls into being a, being a landlord of your mind, which I talk about in the book, but, you know, being a landlord of your mind, but, but not trust, knowing when to trust your feelings and when

Starting point is 01:00:41 not to trust your feelings, you can't always trust them. They're not reliable all the time. And you've got to be a decipher of, of when to and when not to. And it's not easy. In this situation, it should have, it should have been easy, but it didn't feel easy. You know, a lot of people just end. It just end it. They overtrust their feelings. They're caught up in the moment. And they trust their feelings. So I openly shared with my closest friends and my family, this is my thought.

Starting point is 01:01:08 This is where I am. I don't like where I'm at. And I got help. And I can't believe that my brain was in that place six months ago. Like I can't even. So we're one year removed from the accident. Yeah. But now looking at, you know, I was at a place where at one point I'm with my grandchildren

Starting point is 01:01:28 that I would gladly like you with your daughters and die for. Gladly take their place. I would have gladly taken Teague's place. Like I was with him and I couldn't find any joy in it. So I was just so low and, you know, I got help and time, time, and uncovering every rock. It wasn't like just laying in bed hoping things are going to get better. I started taking creatine.

Starting point is 01:01:57 I started taking vitamin D. I got a therapist. I started walking. I could only walk. I would time myself to the mailbox and back how many I could do, you know, in a certain amount of time. And I saw improvement. And the other thing I think I stopped assessing, you know, day by day, how I'm doing.

Starting point is 01:02:18 Because day by day, I felt like I was getting no better. So it can take you, it can put you down the rabbit hole. You know, I was mad at myself for not having a stronger faith. Like you said God's. real. Your goal is to build yourself into the closest image possible. That's this. That's all of our missions. How close can you get to the image of what God created you to be? Self-mastery. That's the end goal. That was avoiding me. And everything I believed was just, and then you go into a deeper spiral. You coward. He started calling yourself names. You shouldn't be called yourself when you're,

Starting point is 01:02:55 you know, where's your faith? You're faithless. God didn't promise you two good legs. People have had way worse things than this and life. And they've made it through. And then ultimately, at some point, I just pulled out of it. I just pulled out of it. And I remember when I was in it, I felt like it was in this bubble. And I started to sleep at my son's house. So I went to his house at night because at least the kids, the grandkids, kept me busy.

Starting point is 01:03:17 And I think the biggest thing was I just couldn't get my mind off myself. You know, and I think I was just so consumed with me. You know, in my wellness that it was like, listen, if you're struggling. They talk about anxiety. I mean, say, if you have really bad anxiety, which to me was never real, now it's real. And I have anxiety, my legs.

Starting point is 01:03:36 I feel an explosion. I think it's going to have a heart attack. So I have a different, you know, approach. But in studying anxiety, it's like, you're anxious going to a party because you can't get your mind off yourself. Like, just walk in the party and tell someone they look good. Like, stop worrying if your shoes are right, your dress looks good. Or is my, is this the right shirt?

Starting point is 01:03:53 Or did I shave? You know, my, am I buffed enough? It's like, you know, it's like, focus on something. somebody else. And I think that helped me in the evenings with my grandkids. At least it was a few hours there where I could just focus on them, you know, and get it off of me because they just demand so much. Yeah. Of your attention. So, you know, those are some of the ways I think that. So do you think it's STEM? Because like, I feel you on the, my medicine in life is like punishing myself physically. Like it's only if I, I don't even necessarily know how I'll feel if I don't. I don't

Starting point is 01:04:28 I'll do it because I've never not done it since I was in fifth or sixth grade maybe every day. It's just part of what is honestly, I feel like it's like, I have to have it. I've never had like a crazy injury before. I've had injuries, but nothing bad. Is it because that I know you're kind of like that too? Is it because that was just taken away and you're like laid up and in bed? You're like, I'm worthless. I can't push myself. I can't do anything.

Starting point is 01:04:52 Is that where you think like the depression stem from? Yeah. I'm exactly like that, like you are, where it's not even like, I want it. You have to. You need it. Yes. And they show now, like science has shown that,

Starting point is 01:05:05 that you know, they talk about natural endorphins and stuff, that your muscles actually send signals to your brain when you're using them. Like, it's real. Yeah. It's science. Like God and science are best friends. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:05:15 Like, this isn't like, believe one or the other. Right. Science is real. Yeah. So, so, yeah, not having it. I wanted it.

Starting point is 01:05:24 And I couldn't have it. And I think, I think just, the natural healing that occurs by being able to do it, I couldn't do that. So it was pulling me further down that I had none of this, these naturally occurring endorphins that are getting to my brain. And then I was just used to. So, so yeah.

Starting point is 01:05:48 So you needed like less focus on yourself more on people you love. Yeah. And suffering, listen, I love that you feel that way because, because, and it's, you know, probably a lot of reason why you're so successful is that like I think so when I'm on the bike I used a bike now that's my means of torturing myself yeah yeah I can't run right now I can I can't really walk fast but I can I can I can bike and I every single time I bike there comes at a moment in the bike ride where I realize I'm a sissy

Starting point is 01:06:20 I'm just a wimp and that I can't like there comes it with like like you're you're humanity is thrown in your face. Yeah. Like there are things that you can't do by yourself. Yeah. You know, you can't maintain for me, you know, but you can't maintain at 185 watts. If you can do that, at some point you can no longer do that. And I think there's just like a humbling, there's a humility piece that you get from

Starting point is 01:06:50 suffering, that there's a point in the suffering where you've just had enough and you can't take it anymore. And it's powerful in your life. Yeah. I think to me it builds immense confidence. For example, I can always come up with an excuse why I'm not going to do squats, for example. Okay. And this happens semi regularly. I'm there. I see the squat rack. I have the weights ready to go. There are people around. And I'm like, you know what? My knee's kind of feeling bad. My hamstring is a little tight from sprints on Sunday. I think I'm going to stop. And then I have to pause and say, dude, get under the bar. Like get under the bar. Right. And I think regularly getting under the bar, regularly pushing past the obvious excuse that I have then builds confidence for everything else in life.

Starting point is 01:07:40 Like all of the other hard things. It's like, no, I chose to do the hard thing. I got under the bar. I didn't really want to. I had excuses. I had good reasons not to. But then did it anyway. That's what I think is kind of the medicine, the part of it that says that it's so. It's so portable to other parts of your life by choosing suffering on your own terms. It prepares you to handle the inevitable adversity you're going to face. I think that's, yeah, well said. And it's the power, right? One in sport, but also just doing things that, like they say discipline is a superpower. Sure. It's available to everybody. Yeah. But yeah, no, that's just real. It's real. I know you got to run pick up a recruiter. I have one more question before you go to the airport.

Starting point is 01:08:20 You work with young people, right? You work with people who are, Obviously, college athletes, college student athletes. I'm curious for the person who's just out of college, for example, right? They don't fully necessarily know what they want to do, but they want to leave a positive dent in the world. What are some general pieces of life slash career advice you give to them? Yeah. So, you know, lots of, there's a lot of people that graduate college

Starting point is 01:08:51 and don't know their. purpose. Yeah. Their passion. That's very common. I mean, I raised children that they weren't sure, right, what they were going to do. Probably most people. Most people. Most people. You know, it's a funny skit on Saturday Night Live, or no, it was David Letterman, where Norm is on his show. Yeah. So Norm was on Cheers. I mean, this might be dating. People on the people know what Cheers is. You know what Cheers is? Yes, I do. I do. Cheers. So Norm's in an interview, he's being interviewed by Letterman, and he said, look, I'm one of the few people that go to college and actually am doing what I studied. said, I used to sit at the corner of the bar and drink beer. And now I'm doing that. You know,

Starting point is 01:09:27 so, so, so, so it's, it's one, we, we do a lot. We do a lot with our, with our team on knowing who you are, knowing what your belief system is. I'm not talking about whether there's a God or not. I'm talking about your belief, your belief system. Yeah. These are things, because every one of us, every decision we make is based on a belief system. Yeah. Right. You've come the terms that, that, yeah, the ultimate, this is this, this is my belief. You believe that getting out of the bar is good for you and important for you. You have like a code, right? You want to, you want to come with your life code values, behaviors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so we, so we work a lot with our, with our guys on, on, on that life code. Just, just being, it starts inside, right,

Starting point is 01:10:11 build a strong core. You know, my daughter was, I don't know what my love is, I'm my passion is. In the, in the, in the, in the search, you're going to find, it will, it will be revealed to you. Yeah. It will be revealed you over time. But you have to stay the course. Stay the course. Live inside these set of boundaries. Continue to strengthen yourself. Continue to grow in the things that you do enjoy.

Starting point is 01:10:33 My daughter love film. Yeah. So listen, let's get you. She's interned at a church and she learned about film. And now she's in film. My son love wrestling, but he also love videography. Now that world has taken him to the real estate world. But he followed his love.

Starting point is 01:10:51 You know, my son, my son, Jake has never had a drink in his life, right? It was, it was a core belief. I'm never going to, I'm never going to drink. So, so in the midst of trying to figure out what your purpose and passion is, you can, you can kind of ruin that to some degree. If your core is not strong and you're making decisions that when you finally figure it out are going to be looked back upon, like, like even simple things. Like, every guy in my team follows my Instagram.

Starting point is 01:11:21 I follow them. I know who they follow on Twitter. Like, who you even following? Why are you following that? Why would you follow that particular individual? What about that? So it just creates a mindset that is just powerful. So, you know, they intern.

Starting point is 01:11:36 We get them out in the public. We have them speaking. We bring them to, like we have children's hospital. You know, one of my guys fell in love with children. I want to be a nurse. So we try to expose them to as much as possible because you never know when you're going to, Yeah.

Starting point is 01:11:51 It's like, wow, man, I got the chills. I'm ignited by this. Like, this is what I want to do with my life. Yeah. So it's exposed into a lot, but make sure that they're strong internally. Their core is really strong. Because of the strong core, you can do about anything. Man, those, these guys are so lucky to have you.

Starting point is 01:12:07 They're so lucky to have you, man. Like, what, what a cool way that you choose to go about this. I'm just so grateful for you. I'm grateful for your time. I would love to keep talking. Yeah, I appreciate being a resume. And you're so good. This is so much fun.

Starting point is 01:12:20 And if you'd have us, we'd love to come back maybe like in a year or less. Yeah, whenever. And just like, because like if I look at my notes, like we covered two percent of them. There's so much. There's so much there too that you have so much to offer is what I'm saying. And today was just amazing. So thank you. Thanks a lot.

Starting point is 01:12:38 Thank you so much for having. It's awesome. It's awesome. It's awesome. Thank you. Yeah. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club.

Starting point is 01:12:50 If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learning leader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation, amazing conversation with the legendary Tom Ryan. A few takeaways from my notes. Quote, my first workout after driving from Syracuse to Iowa was a soul cleanser. I collapsed in my car outside the arena. I couldn't stop crying. I think it's amazing to think about this. Tom decided to leave Syracuse where he was a champion.

Starting point is 01:13:20 There was no guarantee of even making. the team at Iowa, let alone a scholarship. He was a walk on. He shows up on day one. Coach Gable doesn't even know who he is and then says, oh, go over there and wrestle and let's see what you got. It's absolutely crazy that he did this. And he goes on to earn his spot and eventually become an all-American. Just nuts. I want to say and note that this one is a lot different for me because we went to Columbus. We got to hang out for a few hours before we recorded. We watched some of his All-American's practice, both with their coaches and each other, and just to get to be in the presence of so much excellence in grit and work ethic. It was just one of the coolest

Starting point is 01:14:06 days ever. And then in closing, the moment when he talked about Teague, it's even, I'm recording this days after the fact, and it's still almost emotional, just thinking about that moment. in fact i'd encourage you to go to youtube and watch this one just to kind of feel what it was like in the room my my friend cori was there to film all of it i know he did a great job i haven't seen it yet but i can i know know based on what we talked about afterwards but just to hear him go to that day and share what happened and how he felt and just that moment when the doctor couldn't couldn't even look him in the eyes and how Tom, still 20 years later, just to see the feeling and the emotion it brings, oh, it just, it was, it was a powerful moment. And I'm just so,

Starting point is 01:14:59 so grateful that Tom had us there and that we did it in person. It's just another reminder that I am the luckiest dude ever to get a chance to do this for a living. And I'm so grateful that you continue to support it and you spread the way. word and you tell your friends and you go to Apple podcast and Spotify and you keep spreading it and that's what allows me to do the thing I love the most have a deep long form meaningful conversation with a guy like Tom Ryan and because of you this is this is what I get to do so I'm so grateful thank you so much I can't wait for the next one and if you have any questions or you want to talk more about this or perhaps you've gone through something really tough don't hesitate to reach out Ryan at learning

Starting point is 01:15:46 Thank you so much.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 637: Tom Ryan (Ohio State Wrestling Coach) - Chosen Suffering, Emotional Control, Responding to Tragedy, Success Pillars, and Learning from Dan Gable

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