The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 684: Marcus Buckingham - Design Love In, The 5 Feelings Leaders Must Create, The ABCs of Authentic Leadership, and How to Unleash The Most Powerful Force in Business

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to the Learning Leader Show, presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Go to learningleader.com. For show notes of this and all podcast episodes, go to learningleader.com. Now on to tonight's featured leader, Marcus Buckingham has spent 30 years studying what actually drives human performance. He co-created, Strengths Finder, wrote, First, Break All the Rules, and has sold tens of millions of books. He is a New York Times bestselling author and one of the most cited researchers in the history of leadership and management.

Starting point is 00:00:44 His new book is called Design, Love, and How to Unleash the Most Powerful Force and Business during our conversation we discuss. Why Marcus sold his company in 2017, and also why he says it was the biggest mistake of his career. Then the five sequential feelings every great leader must create and why the order is non-negotiable. Why the most important job a leader has is not setting goals or building culture,

Starting point is 00:01:13 it's designing experiences. And then why love is not soft. It is structural, measurable, and the most powerful force and business. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Marcus, Buckingham.

Starting point is 00:01:31 This episode is brought to you by my friends at Insight Global. Insight Global is a staffing and professional services company dedicated to being the light to the world around them. If you need to hire one person, hire a team of people, or transform your business through talent or technical services, Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world have the hustle and grit to deliver. Hiring can be tough, but hiring the right person can be magic.

Starting point is 00:02:05 Visit Insightglobal.com slash learning leader today to learn more. That's Insightglobal.com slash learning leader. Okay, you open the book. It's 3 a.m. You're replaying the day that you sold your company, and you call yourself the fool who blew. it up, not what I was expecting. What made you say that? What made you think that? Well, when you start a business, it's all about love because frankly, you know, seven out of

Starting point is 00:02:38 ten businesses fail, right? So new businesses. So when you start a business as an entrepreneur, which I did back in 2007, you love what you do, you love your clients, you surround yourself with people who can love it as much as you do. You all have this sort of passionate delusion that what you're doing is really important. It's going to work. And so there's a lot of a lot of love and you talk about it all the time and how do you get customers to fall in love with the company and how do you overserve and there's a lot of love amongst the colleagues and we're all in this together. It's a really, if you've never started a business, it's like it's, there's just a lot of love flowing through the veins of the company. It feels kind of like your baby

Starting point is 00:03:16 because it is. Totally. And it's very much like when you have a child, it's like your heart is walking around outside of your body all the time. Yeah. And so you wake up. at three in the morning and think about the business and then you wake up at 10 at night, you're still noodling about the business, but it's not a, I don't know, it's not a stress. It's more like it's an ongoing love affair with what you're trying to put out in the world, which is amazing. It's amazing. It's, it's, love is the context in which humans flourish. And then in 2017, I felt like we needed more scale, frankly. And this company, this large Fortune 500 company had 3,000 salespeople. And, you know, I, you know,

Starting point is 00:03:56 I thought we need more reach. We'd built a cadre of products and services and people that could scale. And what I just didn't have was 3,000 salespeople. So the price was right. I felt the timing was right. I felt the logic was right. But I started the book this way because very soon after that sale, and it's no knock really on the Fortune 500 company. They were just doing what big companies do. They were they were maximizing the efficiency of the machine. But what that turned into was my little love ball got broken down into silos and what became the subject of conversation was the efficient running of this big machine. And so it was a conversation about maximization of compliance, of efficiency, which wasn't, it's not bad. It just means that the love disappears. You stop talking about it anymore.

Starting point is 00:04:46 And that's why I quoted Pavlano Ruta, who's arguably the best love poet of the last. century who simply said that love is born in savoring, it lives in intelligence, but it dies from neglect. Love dies from forgetting. It doesn't die from being killed. It just stopped talking about it anymore. And I found, for me, up close and personal, that's why I started the book this way, it's no one's fault. But when you stop talking about love for your own work, love for your colleagues, love for your customers, when you stop talking about it, because your attention is a creative act, when you start putting your attention on other things, you destroy love. And we ought to be completely upfront with ourselves about that. You stop talking about it. You destroy it.

Starting point is 00:05:36 And we ought to ask ourselves, do we want to live in an increasingly loveless world? Can humans flourish in an increasingly loveless world? Does it make good business sense to live? an increasingly loveless world. And I think the answer to all those questions is no. Do you regret selling it? Yes. Yes. I would not do it again.

Starting point is 00:05:57 I would do it again in a very different way. I'm not saying scaling is a bad thing. I'm saying if you are an entrepreneur and you're listening to this and somebody offers you something, one of the most important considerations you should ask yourself, which is me speaking to me,

Starting point is 00:06:13 I'm giving myself this advice, is will this lead to more customers, falling in love with your company? And will this lead to more employees saying they love working there? And if the answer to that question is unattended to, or if the answer is an obvious no, then don't do it. And I didn't attend to it as preciously and as intentionally as I should have done. Because it led to more people saying, I don't love the company.

Starting point is 00:06:36 And it led to more people working there saying, I don't love working there. And that's the raw material of the value of the future of a business. And if CFOs or CEOs or general councils or CHROs don't understand that, it doesn't make it not true, it means they don't understand that. And I'm guilty of that. So yeah, I wouldn't do it again. Did you even know to think or to ask that question at the time, though? No, I think I was too inside the frame to see the picture.

Starting point is 00:07:05 And you get distracted and you get like, oh my gosh, scale. Was it a money thing too? You're a human. I mean. Yeah, but no, because. because I, I mean, yes, in a sense, but I wasn't gonna retire. I was gonna stay there and keep growing it.

Starting point is 00:07:19 So there was various incentives to stay and continue to grow. It wasn't like I was cashing out. It was like an earn out period. Exactly, yeah. Exactly, it's called an earn out. And so I was like, I knew I had work to do, but I felt this was the fastest way to get to that work.

Starting point is 00:07:33 And fortunately, I had many different offers. So it was like, oh, do I want to? And I made what I thought was a rational decision. It wasn't a financially stupid decision. It's just I'm a builder, I'm a grower. I'm an entrepreneur as much as I'm anything else. And I didn't pursue the most intelligent growth strategy. That's where the regret comes from.

Starting point is 00:07:54 So one of the natural questions is, is it just not possible at a big company to love like this? Is this just part of the machine? And I have a feeling how you're going to answer that. So if it is possible, though, like, what do we do? What if someone's running the CEO of a very large company? multi-billions, what do they do? What do they implement to ensure that they love their people, that they love their customers, their customers love them, their people love each other, like, what do you do? How do you get this going? Well, that's a sort of a two-parter.

Starting point is 00:08:28 Because we do find companies that are very big, that have maintained some of that deep love. And very often those are the companies that protect the founders' flame. A lot of great companies, the founders' story, their vision, their passion there, has somehow been kindled and remains strong even yet today. So if we think of Walt Disney, I mean, you can look at a stock price the last four or five years and you could argue about various growth strategies, but does that company still retain the aura of Walt Disney and the craziness and the wonder and the fantasy of that?

Starting point is 00:09:01 Yes. Is it materially qualitatively different categorically than Six Flags or Universal Studios? Yes, it is. It clearly is. If you think of Chick-fil-A, I mean, Truac-Cat-Cathie has passed on, but the unique, weird, wonderfulness of Chick-fil-A, and what he was trying to do with it, whatever you think of Chick-fil-A,

Starting point is 00:09:18 it's clearly distinctively and very meaningfully different than Raising Cains. Apple, you think about a company like that, which has maintained its kind of crazy passion for design. Now, you could argue that is that waning or is it waxing, those are questions we could get into, but when a company maintains a close connection to its founder's flame, I mean, you think today of like Southwest Airlines, Herb Callagher, for the longest, 30 years of profitability before 2023 when it was sold to a hedge fund.

Starting point is 00:09:48 And now the unassigned seating has gone away, the crazy sort of games have gone away, the vibe of it, which some people hated, but it wasn't bland, by sure. It had maintained a connection to Herb Keller has Founders Flame. When that starts to go away, when companies lose their connection to the founding passion, which began it, they start to become the machine. And the machine doesn't have a soul. And we can all feel it. We like, we humans, we like to personify things. We like to personify companies. We lean into personifications of things. We trust them more because they're not amorphous. They're a human that was trying to do a thing. And when a company can maintain that relationship historically to the thing, the person, it means more. It matters more. So there's that.

Starting point is 00:10:38 The other part of that, I think, though, run is that most CEOs have lost sight of the fact that the data on love, and we can unpack what love means, but the data on love is unequivocal. If you want to drive productive human behavior on the part of customers or on the part of employees, if you want to drive repeat visits, advocacy, loyalty, collaboration, a high performance, which of course CEOs want, the precursor to that is love. experiences that people love drive behaviors drive outcomes love measurably is the most powerful force in business by far there's nothing even close and yet most CEOs have long forgotten that go to a business school go to insiad or go to hbr or hover business school or go to wharton there's not a single class on how do you design a strategy to maximize the most powerful force in business love isn't a coating it's not oh be nice it's not kumbaya it's an ingredient that you design in to your products and services or the way in which you onboard, select, train and develop your people. You design it in and you design it in because you get the

Starting point is 00:11:41 best outcomes that way. But most CEOs actually don't believe that because they've missed the data on it. And so they think of love as a lovely little luxury as opposed to the most powerful driving force of productive human behavior, which it is. This feels obvious, doesn't it? I mean, what are we doing here? Does it make a CEO sound soft? I mean, we all know how it feels to love somebody, to feel the love of somebody else. It feels obvious that we would try to then bottle that up within our businesses and deploy it, both for the people that work at our companies as well as our customers. It just makes sense. So where's the misconnect here? Well, to some extent, you know, I'm part of the problem, which is that when you actually study customers who come back more often,

Starting point is 00:12:36 who advocate more, word of mouth, pay more, employees that give you that discretionary effort, who collaborate more, more creative, when you study people like that, do interviews, focus groups, the word people use is love. They use it all the time. I love that team. I love that company. I love that brand. I love that movie. Like, we hear it. But most people do what I did. When I heard it, which I heard repeatedly for the last 25 years, I can't. changing it to a different word that was more palatable to the business community. So I changed it to passion or joy or engagement or strengths. And those words are jolly good words, but they're not actually the words people use. When you hear people talking about a really extreme positive human experience

Starting point is 00:13:16 at work or as a customer, the word we reach for is love. And it's not a careless exaggeration of the word like. It's a thing we reach for. But that's what actually happens. Most people do what I did. They go, well, they don't mean love. Love is for family or it's for Love Island. We either flatten it or totally deepen it. Like, it's either it's for my family or it's kissing in chocolates in front of the Eiffel Tower. And we sort of do that with love when, in fact, love deserves curiosity and study because it's always present when we see extreme positive human behavior.

Starting point is 00:13:50 So I think it's that. We've decided it's love isn't. relevant to the practice of business. And so we're going to stop talking about it. In fact, I was with a group of 30 CA Turoz the other day, Ryan, and we spent two hours talking about the data that support the love drives performance, and they couldn't even say the word. In the end, they came to say the word about customers,

Starting point is 00:14:15 but they never became comfortable even saying the word about their own employees, because I think we've got to this place in the world, particularly post-COVID, where really, if you look at the chest thumping behaviors and actions that pass for leadership today, and you could name some of the leaders that stand in that space, really the job of a CHRO is to protect the company from the employees. And so the book's called Design Love in. But you can see a lot of places we're really trying to design it out. And it's because I think love is, you know, there's a chaotic sort of unpredictable element to love that's amazing because it expands the possibility in the capability space. But to some CFO somewhere or some

Starting point is 00:15:04 CHRO who's trying to tighten the experience curve, as it were, and limit the number of choices that people make, whether it leads to things like you will be back in the office, we will have surveillance software when you're back in the office, all of which speaks to control and structure, which is undermined or underpinned by fear, I think, basically, for what people will do if you give them too much space. What we've got today is a world in which says, no love there. Love doesn't have a place in that equation. It's become sort of irrelevant.

Starting point is 00:15:36 Let's think about a high performance organization, which every single leader listening to this is saying, that's what I'm running. That's what I'm striving for. We have stretched goals. We've got to hit the revenue target. budget, profit, whatever, okay? Marcus, this sounds great for you to write a book about it and to say it and to talk about it. I'm here to hit our number, okay?

Starting point is 00:16:00 This love stuff, sure, I'll do it when I can. I'll write a thank you note here and there. I'll go pat somebody on the back when they get a big sale, whatever. I'm being dramatic, but you get it. What do you say to that person who says, good for you that you can write this book and you made a bunch of money selling your company and then it kind of died off because the big company killed it. What about that person who's an SVP of whatever

Starting point is 00:16:22 with a very tough stretch goal, a very demanding CEO who is there to beat their goals into submission and then do it again the next year? Well, that's real, right? Many of us are in that situation. If you back out of it, you're going to say, well, look, what's the job of a leader? Whatever level.

Starting point is 00:16:43 The job of a leader is really straightforward. your job is to change human behavior. That's all you're doing. You're not paid to hit a goal. You're paid to change behavior so that you hit various goals. The behavior might be for your customers. It might be the behavior or employees. Your job as a leader is to change people's behavior, hopefully for the better. So the question for you as a leader is how do you do that? What is the most effective, sustainable way to change human's behavior? Well, you've really kind of got two choices. You could be directive, which is what most of us do as leaders. Directive means you set a goal and then you push for that goal and you give coaching feedback and tough coaching

Starting point is 00:17:17 about how do you hit that goal. And with customers, you might set pricing or you design really coherent sort of loyalty programs to coerce people directly to change their behavior. People are coin operated and you'll change your incentive program or you'll change your loyalty program, whatever it is, and we'll change behavior that way. Which works. So if your listeners are listening going, well, that works. Yeah, it works. It works for temporarily for a short, period of time. If you want to sustain behavior change, you've got to follow an equation, and that equation is really straightforward. It's the one that we apply to our own lives. And the equation is experiences, drive behaviors, drive outcomes. Experiences drive behaviors,

Starting point is 00:17:57 drive outcomes. If you want really great outcomes in your health, then the behavior is you've got to go to the gym. Well, you're only going to go to the gym if you design experiences of the gym that are positive for you in some way so that you have the behavior that drives the outcome. So if you want sustainable behavioral change in terms of your health, experiences job behaviors drive outcomes. If you want to create a flourishing restaurant, you can't coerce people. I mean, yes, you need the right pricing. You need good product.

Starting point is 00:18:21 But what you've got to do is create the experiences of the restaurant that drive the behaviors to get people to come out their way, two, three, four miles out of their way to drive to your restaurant, not someone else's. And then you get the outcomes you want. So for a leader, the best leaders understand that their job is to maximize that equation, which basically means you're an experience maker. as a leader. You could be directive all you want, but what you're trying to do there is push noodles uphill. What you want to do is pull a noodle down there. And the best way to do that is to craft

Starting point is 00:18:48 experiences that people lean into. You're an experience maker as a leader. Now, most people don't say it that way, but the truth of the matter is, it's not whether you are an experience maker or not. The question, and the book tries to answer this question is, are you a skilled one? Because the best lead as a skilled experience makers. They understand that every single touch point that exists in their working world is a raw material for making an experience and the people, whether it's customers or employees, are picking up what you're putting down. That email you just sent, it's not an email. It's an experience. That meeting you just called, it's not a meeting. It's an experience. That big company gathering that you're doing, that's not a big company gathering. It's an experience.

Starting point is 00:19:31 You can design it intentionally so people lean into it and get the behaviors you want or you can be accidental about it, in which case people are going to pick up what you put down even if you just dropped it. But they're making an experience. Culture is just a series of experiences, which is why actually it's pretty hard to change. But if you look at the best leaders, they are so unbelievably intentional and intelligent about experience making, both for customers and employees. And really, that's what the book's about. It's like, hey, listen, if you want to drive to these incredible goals and you need to beat people over the head with a big stick to get the goals, okay, fine, you're an average leader. Just look in the mirror, you're an average leader.

Starting point is 00:20:10 You want to excel sustainably. You want to differentiate yourself and give yourself an unfair advantage. Become an experience maker. Become an intelligent experience maker because that will drive the behavior that drives the outcomes. That's really what the data would show and it's what the book's about. Danny Meyer, business like life is all about how you make people feel. It's that simple and it's that hard. Danny Meyer, one of the best restaurateurs of all time. Will Godera, unreasonable hospitality. I just recorded with him so it's very fresh, Marcus. I don't know if you guys are friends, but you should be. But that is so true while they may have written it about restaurants. It's about life. It's about business. It's about families. It's about

Starting point is 00:20:56 friends. It's all that. It's all about thinking, how did I make that person feel? Like, I actually see some of the clients I work with in the gym. It's interesting. You know, we're in there to do it to get a workout in. But still, there may be a three-minute interaction in between sets or after getting off the treadmill or whatever. And that's a deliberate attempt to make that person feel better, not like in a fake flattery way, but an honest connecting way of let's have a short conversation because we're both interested in this thing about, you know, working out or something like that. Business like life is all about how you make people feel it's that simple and it's that hard. I completely agree with you.

Starting point is 00:21:36 And Will's great. I don't know, Danny, but what we see from the data is, and obviously I'm a data geek, so that's where all of this comes from for me. If you have measured experiences, and by the way, measured experiences, normally we measure them on a scale of one to five, five being strongly positive, one being strongly negative. A lot of the stuff from this book came from something from the data actually on this, that is basically undermines a fundamental belief that many leaders have. We seem to believe many of us.

Starting point is 00:22:07 The relationship between experiences and the feeling of those experiences and outcomes is, and I'm sorry, it's going to get a tiny bit wonky, but we think the relationship is linear, as in we think if we move a two experience, which is below average, to an average experience, which is a three, to above average,

Starting point is 00:22:23 which is a four, if we're moving twos to threes to fours, whether it's for our employees or our customers or indeed ourselves, the same amount of outcomes, increase, which means if we've got a lot of customers at twos, we should move into threes. And if we got a lot of employees just at a three, then we should move into fours. The problem is, and then normally, by the way, we put the fours with the fives, and we call that a top two box or percent favorable, or we expand it to net promoter score, and we put

Starting point is 00:22:49 nines with tens, you know. Okay, all of that's wrong. Because when you look at the data at scale, the relationship between experiences and outcomes isn't linear. It's what's called curvilinear, which means it's like a hockey stick. Moving people's experience from a two experience to a three doesn't change their behavior at all. Moving their experience from a three to a four doesn't change their behavior at all. It's only when you do something with a customer or an employee that changes their experience to the point where they go five, that we can start to predict what they're going to do next.

Starting point is 00:23:19 Like if you say that movie's a four, I can't predict if you're going to go back and see it again or who you're going to tell. If you say that restaurant was a four and I moved you from a three to a four, I can't predict if you're going to go back or spend more or tell anyone else to go to that restaurant. Fours or threes. Never put a four with a five again. Never top two box again. Never percent favorable again. Fours are threes. Threes or twos or ones. When it comes to the data, the world's binary. To your point, like the world of business is feelings. Yeah, but actually, there's only two feelings in the world. There's love and there's everything else that is just not love. There's love, not love. And the data on this is,

Starting point is 00:23:57 unequivocal, whether it's student grades or patient outcomes or employee productivity or customer loyalty. You've got five and everything else is just not a five. And when you push on fives, that's when you bump into that word love. Fours, what's the word for Fores? I enjoyed it. I respected that leader. I learned a lot from that leader. Like all of these are jolly good words. They don't predict behavior change. So for any leader listening, I'm sorry, I know the bar becomes higher, But I promise you, if you're in the business of behavior change, fives are the only thing that predicted, everything else doesn't. And when you unpack the five, that's when people spontaneously use that word love.

Starting point is 00:24:40 That's why we're talking about love, because it's the most powerful predictor of positive human behavior. That's why it's worth unpacking. It's not a nice to have. It's the fundamental driver of anything good. And anything below that is just, it's like boiling point of water. If you want to predict when the water is going to boil, when will water change its state when it hits 212? Anything else below that is just not boiling.

Starting point is 00:25:06 And we ought to as leaders, we ought to be as binary as that in the world. Either you're getting people to say, I love that, or you've failed to change their behavior. Love is as hard-edged, if you will, as that. And that's kind of why I started the book with data, Ryan, because it's like, hey, if we're not careful love gets really soft okay then soft it's a driver of behavior if you're interested in driving behavior as a leader take love seriously if you're not fine don't read this book have you ever seen the savannah bananas yeah okay yes so i went down to savanna a few months ago to spend time with jesse cole their owner he actually owns six teams now so it's a banana league it's not just a banana

Starting point is 00:25:47 so they're six teams anyway they were all there that day they were practicing at different times so some of them were in the weight room somewhere on the field locker rooms whatever just Jesse, me, and a couple other people were walking around. And every single person that he saw, and we saw lots of them, players, staff, all different types, hundreds. He knew everybody's name. And he wasn't showing off or like trying to be, and he was genuinely curious and asking him about them, their kids. Like, how was this possible? And I remember the way he looked at me, I think he thought like it was a stupid question.

Starting point is 00:26:20 When I asked him, like, how do you know everybody's name? How do you know all the details about all these people? And you could just tell, like, he's obsessed. He loves him. He loves what he does. He loves his business. He loves his teams. He loves his people.

Starting point is 00:26:31 Yeah, it's an obsession. We talked about obsession when I recorded with him. I mean, it's not a surprise then when you see them selling out 100,000 seat stadiums after inventing essentially a new sport. And so those are great, great examples of how love shows up. Yeah. He's a super interesting character. And he takes his own loves delusional. seriously. As you said, he manifests it in the way that he's designed a product and but also the way in

Starting point is 00:26:59 which he loves on the people that are making the product. I don't know him, but I've seen what he's done and it's just super intriguing. He reminds me the person that I profiled very early in the book, Josh DeMorrow, who when I was following him around, he was the head of Disney parks, resorts, cruise lines, consumer products, and imagining. Jesse, that's like his number one mentor in life is Walt Disney. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. And not every Disney executive, I've studied many of them over the years. They're not all like that. But Josh, and he's, by the way, two days ago, right, took over as the CEO.

Starting point is 00:27:32 He's replacing Bob Iger, which I'm so happy about, by the way. Like, the board could have picked, they had a number of different possible successes to Bob Iger. It took a fair amount of courage to pick someone. Josh is the kind of person like you were just describing. You walk the park with him and you can't get 20 yards, not just because all the cast members are gathering around him and he's hugging them and he knows their names and there's a chef here and there's a line order cook there and there's a cast member there

Starting point is 00:27:59 and he genuinely is all about them and they're cutting through 15 layers of hierarchy which you can imagine at Disney hierarchy exists and they're breaking through all of that just coming up, he's got no handlers smoothing his part but it's not just the cast members Ryan somehow the guests all know him to and you can't get five yards without them being

Starting point is 00:28:23 He's just a mob scene. And I think as I was writing about it that day, this was a year before he was picked. But I think what I saw that day, a bit like you were describing, what you want from the Savannah Bananas is you want it to be real. You want the whole ecosystem to be real. It's fun. It's engaging. It's sweet. It's disarming.

Starting point is 00:28:42 You want the whole thing to be like that. Imagine if the CEO of that company wasn't like that. In a world of fakery, we're just reaching for real. And you could see the guests looking at Josh Tamarro and in. a sense going, thank goodness, the head of this company seems to be as geeked out by this whole mysterious world we've built here as we are. Thank goodness he's not a financial cynic. He's just extracting value from our own love of Disney. Thank goodness he seems to be as into it as we are. And in a world of AI, frankly, the idea that we're reaching for genuine love.

Starting point is 00:29:19 opposite of AI, of course, is genuine emotion, genuine feeling. And not that AI isn't good, it's got some great things, but we want genuine feeling. And you can see that in Josh, and you can see that in the Savannah bananas. And of course, they'll be different. I mean, I'm not suggesting that everyone should be, hail fellow, well met, and glad-handing. I am suggesting that if we take love really, really seriously, we get lots of moral and business benefits from it. So maybe I can get some free consulting advice from you, Marcus, since you're you're one of the best in the world with this.

Starting point is 00:29:50 Okay. So we run a leadership development company. That's what I run with my teammates. And occasionally you're asked, okay, what's the ROI? Like a CFO will ask me that question. What's the return on investment we're going to get from hiring you guys to work with our leaders at our company? And it's not like the easiest question to answer because it's more subjective.

Starting point is 00:30:13 It's a service-oriented type of a thing that we offer, right? And one of the things I say, and I'll be curious to kind of get your take is the reason why our guys are good, why our team is good, is we authentically live every single thing that we teach. We've done it all ourselves. We continue to do it ourselves when it comes to our purpose and values and behaviors and culture and all this stuff. Like this is what we actually do and then we just teach the exact same stuff that we live out. And I think part of why we win and sustain and work with people for years and years in a space that people, don't have engagements that long is because of that exact thing, this authenticity of living it out ourselves. Now, that comes from love, that comes from obsession, it comes from curiosity,

Starting point is 00:30:58 it comes from us trying to continually raise our standards. When you hear all of that in this service-oriented business, which I know you understand, what do you think? I spent most of my time trying to figure out over the years, how do you quantify increases in engagement? And if you go back through all the Gallup data. If you were ever talking to CFO, I would bring up increases in employee engagement are drivers of, not just correlates of, causation drivers of, certain behavioral changes on the part of employees. And you can quantify that. And of course, we know that the biggest driver of engagement is your local team leader. It's not the culture of the company. The culture of the company is like the river, which you're swimming, but there's a lot of different

Starting point is 00:31:38 eddies. And the river feels really different according to which part of it you just climbed into. you join a company, but then the sun, the moon, and the stars of your work is that local leader. And I'm sure you've said this to every client you've sold to. It's the most important decision you make is who you make leader of that team. And so goes that team, so goes everything. So if you control over the budget of this company, if you don't understand that, again, it's not because it's not so. It's because you don't understand that.

Starting point is 00:32:04 And so let me try to show you some data which shows quantifiably the effect of, and in fact, by the way, in the book, I'm sure you saw this Ryan. I show a company, it's a very large retailer in the US, they got like 8,000 stores, and I show the relationship between customer and employee experiences on the X-axis and profitability of the store up the Y-axis. And in general, the line of best fit shows that there is a very strong relationship between experiences of the employees and customers in the store and the profitability of the store, which is great because it quantifies the importance of experience-making.

Starting point is 00:32:42 You make bad experiences. People don't come back more. You make good experiences, of course, people will. But the biggest takeaway from it actually is variation. It's a scatterplot. It's the same company, one stock price, supposedly one culture. But as you can see from the scatterplot, every single store seems to have created a whole variety of different sorts of experiences for customers and employees.

Starting point is 00:33:07 Well, who's the main driver of the creator of those experiences? It's the leader. The leader makes a huge difference inside the same company. So I can't remember what page that's on. But if you wanted to, like, what's the value of a leader? Show that graph and basically go, what's the difference between the dot on the top right and the dot on the bottom left? It's the leader. And so anything you're doing to, not to sell for you guys, but anything you can do to build the capability of your leaders is money well spent because you're trying to move all the dots up into the right.

Starting point is 00:33:37 And the idea that your people, your team is, I always think of ABC. Authenticity, beliefs, customs. Authenticity, beliefs, customs. We reach for authenticity in our leaders. We don't want perfection. We want authenticity. Why? Because that leads to prediction.

Starting point is 00:33:56 If you are authentically you, then I can predict you're going to be around the corner. And that means I'm more likely to follow you around the corner. I'm not expecting you to be perfect. I want you to be predictable. That's authenticity. Authenticity is manifested in your beliefs. do we genuinely believe? And they better, that better be coherent with who you authentically are because if you are faking your beliefs, I can smell it and I don't want to follow it. And then,

Starting point is 00:34:17 of course, your customs are the living manifestation. You could call them routines or rituals, but in terms of ABC, they're the things you customarily do have got a flow from your A's and your B's. So if I think of the best leaders that I know, their ABCs line up beautifully. Like Josh DeMire, not saying he's perfect, but he's authentically who he is. I know exactly what he believes. And then in the book, actually, we detail out some of the very specific, kind of weird customs that he has that brings those authentic beliefs to life. Love it. Let's get even more practical. Okay. A very high aware leader, they have high level of awareness, is listening to this. I'm like, I love this. And then they're thinking, wait a second.

Starting point is 00:35:05 I'm not sure I'm doing a good job of this for whatever reason. What are some things that a high awareness level leader who's leading a team right now, how they could get better? What could they implement immediately following this podcast to say, okay, I've been kind of lax on this love thing. Again, I try to show my gratitude for my people and for our customers, but I don't know. I don't know if I'm being very honest to myself.

Starting point is 00:35:33 Where do we begin? How do we get practical right now? Yeah, well, obviously there's not a simple answer to that question. There's places to start. The first place to start would be what the heck do your people mean by love? If someone's going to say, I love working for that leader, what do they mean by that? Do they mean I really, really like that leader? Do they mean I really, really respect that leader?

Starting point is 00:35:51 What do they mean? Although everybody's got a different definition of love, around the world, it predict behavior. So there must be a uniform definition of love. It must be. It must all mean something similar. If you really push on it, what people mean when they say, I love. love, and by the way, it's weird, it could apply to, I love that cup of coffee, I love my mom. Wait, what? I love that movie. I love that mentor. How can we use the word in such different contexts?

Starting point is 00:36:17 When you really push on it, though, Ryan, when people use the word love, it's because we're reaching for a meaning, which is, it's an experience that helps me feel more fully myself over time, which is basically flourishing. It's a feeling of flourishing. If you think about most of us, we go through life balled up like an armadillo, surrounded by armor plating against the harshness of the world, which is sensible because the world is pretty harsh. But inside of us, we want to take what's inside of us and express it. That feels healthy to us. We want to get to 95 and have expressed them of ourselves. So any experience that gives us a chance to take one little piece of armor plating off, and it could be, I love those socks. Because when I wear them, I don't know, man,

Starting point is 00:36:58 I just feel, I just feel a bit more me. It could be, I love that mentor, because I love that. Because that mentor was the first person who pushed through my performance rating and went, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, this is the kind of place in which you can really flourish and I'm going to move you there. Which, by the way, is why we have the word tough love, because sometimes the mentor has got to yank you into a situation where you can be more fully yourself, even if you actually are still cowering in the corner into an area of your world that feels more familiar. So love really means the opportunity to flourish in small ways or large. So if that's your definition as a leader, then you should be thinking about is what are the things I could practically do to get people on my team to feel like they are safe enough to express their best self on this team. What could I do? And in the book, and we could go through this if you want, but if you reverse engineer that, and I know this is going to sound so weird to your listeners, but if you reverse engineered that, you reverse engineer somebody going, I love that leader. Or I love working on that team. You find a sequence of five feelings, and it's sequential.

Starting point is 00:38:06 And if a leader knows those five feelings, that's like a blueprint. It really is different, but there's a blueprint there for what you could do as a leader to get people to the place where they go. I flippin love working for that leader. Okay. Control, harmony, significance, warmth of others and growth. Is that where we're going? Yes, that's where I was headed. Okay, let's unpack those five feelings of love, and they need to be sequential, right?

Starting point is 00:38:33 Each builds on the last. So let's go through them. And don't get the sequence wrong. And these aren't hierarchical, like Masler's hierarchy, these are sequential. And it's one of the reasons I wrote the book. So it's like, if every leader could just take away, love isn't magic. Love's built, loves designed, and you can design it in. That's why in the end up calling the book, design love in. It's like you can design in. The first feeling, just imagine, somebody's going to an experience that, joining your team for the first time and they're coming into your business for the first time or they have an experience for the first time. The first feeling they want is a feeling of control. That doesn't mean control over you. That means they want control over their own choices and their own actions.

Starting point is 00:39:12 So the question they're asking, even if they don't say it to you, is what's this world you've invited me into and how does it work? Which if you're in a company, it's like, what's the mission of our company? What do you stand for? You know, when Chick-fil-A says, we're closed on Sundays. Is that loving or unloving? I would say that's super loving because even if you don't agree with it, you know what it is. And you can either choose to move into that world or not.

Starting point is 00:39:35 That's a loving thing to do with anybody. And then in that world, how does it work? So for you as a leader, have you been clear about what your world is like? Have you said what you stand for? Going back to the authenticity thing, the more vivid you can be, the more loving it is.

Starting point is 00:39:49 And then how do the tools work? What decisions am I allowed to make in the world? Tell me what their decisions are. The opposite of control is powerlessness. And we know from everything that Martin Sullivan did about learned helplessness, we humans hate that. We will lean way the heck out. If you're vague as a leader, vagueness as a leader is the most damaging thing you can possibly be because people keep their armadillo plating on. Why?

Starting point is 00:40:16 Because they don't know what the world is you invited them into and they don't know how it works. So that's the first thing. That's control. All right. Well, the next one's weird. The next one's so weird, but it's harmony. Think about this, right? You've got an armadillo coming in,

Starting point is 00:40:31 and you want them to keep taking off armor plating. Well, one piece of armor plating that they're going to keep on, if you're not careful, is the one that protects their emotions in that experience. And when you don't show people that you know what they're feeling and you care what they're feeling, they keep the armor plating on. If you have an experience on the team that feels jarring, humans lean out with an emotion that they feel when there's nothing in the experience says,

Starting point is 00:40:59 I know what you're feeling and I care what you're feeling. We studied nurses who gave painless injections and weirdly there are some who do. And we tried to unpack how they did that and we looked at the technique with the needle and the swab and the this and that. But it turns out the reason why some nurses can almost share your pain

Starting point is 00:41:17 when you're getting an injection is because they all say the same thing right before they put the needle in. they say this is going to hurt little bit. I'll try to make it hurt as little as I can. And somehow in just saying what you're feeling and obviously saying that I care about it, they reduce it.

Starting point is 00:41:33 So as leaders, what we need to remember is no matter where you want to move your people to, you've got to meet them before you can move them. You've got to tell them that you know what they're feeling in the UK. Otherwise, you can't move them anywhere. You've missed them. Why have you missed them? Because they are a plating still on.

Starting point is 00:41:47 The example I quoted in the book was Audi. I like Audi. I had an A4. and I got to the end of my lease, and you think that a really sophisticated company like Audi would know that at the end of the lease, what most customers are feeling is excitement because I'm about to look for a new model,

Starting point is 00:42:02 and it's like, oh man, it's great. But instead, three weeks before the end of my lease, I got a robo call from a very sophisticated company called Audi that simply said, in a robo voice, you failed to schedule your termination inspection. And I'm like, what? I don't even know what a termination inspection is, but I've already failed it. Next week, same thing.

Starting point is 00:42:22 Next week, same thing. And I just leaned out. You know why? I couldn't even put words to it initially, but it was jarring. Because I was excited and Audi was pissed off. And so in the end, they lost me for five years. I don't hate Audi. It wasn't like it was a three or a two or a one experience.

Starting point is 00:42:39 It was disharmonious. I lend out, so they lost me. So the second feeling is harmony. You've got to tell people that you know what they're feeling and you care, otherwise they won't keep leaning in. I mean, that's kind of a one. That's or a zero. Yeah, well, it wasn't like it was a massive service failure.

Starting point is 00:42:56 It kind of is, though. I mean, to have a robo call for a long-term customer who's leased in an expensive car, that's very surprising. It's very stupid. We don't take harmony seriously as businesses or as leaders very much. We don't. But like think about the meeting room for a second. Sorry, this one just is a bunch of execs are sitting in a meeting room and say,

Starting point is 00:43:18 okay, here's what we're going to do, guys. when somebody is at the end of their lease of this very nice expensive car, instead of having any sort of human touch, they're going to get a robo call, and they're going to tell them that they've messed something up. They've failed at something. All right, ready, break, let's go. How does it happen?

Starting point is 00:43:36 How does it happen? That's insane, you know? Well, here's one of the big things that leaders that are listening could change right right away. We don't design for experiences. When I first was thinking about publishing this book, I thought the pushback would be on the word love. But actually, the pushback's on the word experience.

Starting point is 00:43:53 Because we don't design for experiences. We design for processes. So I think what happened in the case of Audi was the whole notion of an experience that somebody comes to the end of the lease, what are they going to be experiencing at the end of the lease? What are they going to be feeling? Have we shown that people come to the end of the lease that we're aware of what they're feeling?

Starting point is 00:44:11 And that we care about what they're feeling. However we want to have them end up feeling, what are they actually feeling coming into the end of their lease? I don't think that conversation ever happened. Why? The idea of experiences, drive behaviors, drive outcomes, as obvious as it sounds when you and I are talking about it, I don't think that conversation comes up in most companies

Starting point is 00:44:27 because we design for process and efficiency, which leads to silos. So the problem for Audi was, there's a person somewhere in a dealership going, Marcus is coming to the end of his lease, I'm going to get to selling this new model. But that person's in a different silo than a person who's writing the email,

Starting point is 00:44:44 or the script for the RoboCall that comes to Marcus. It's like no one creates a holistic experience map. We talk about customer journeys or customer experience maps, but we don't actually design for a holistic human. Like, just go to a hospital, and it's one handoff after another. The person that checks you in isn't the person who takes your vitals. The person who then sees how you're doing in the middle of the night

Starting point is 00:45:12 isn't the person who took your vitals. then there's another healthcare professional, there's another doctor, and the person who's supposed to hold the narrative of that experience coherent, one hand off to another, is you, the patient who deep down knows, we don't actually know which details matter, but the whole thing has been designed for efficiency, not for a holistic experience, which is probably, Ryan, why the patient outcomes are so bad compared to how much money we spend on them. We haven't designed for an experience. go back to Savannah Bananas. He's designed a holistic experience.

Starting point is 00:45:49 And as a result, we cram into stadiums to watch it because it looks, then there's a phrase from a poet whose name I'm blanking on, what beauty it all coheres. Because it's coherent, we're like, we lean in. Audi has designed a desiccated, disconnected, disconnected, disintegrated, set of processes. and the person who's supposed to knit it all together is me, the buyer. Well, that's daft. I mean, Disney isn't a perfect company around, but I tell you what they did do.

Starting point is 00:46:21 They created the first thing you do when you build a Disney park, in case anyone's thinking of building a Disney park, is you build a berm around the whole park so you can't see out. Well, Universal Studios doesn't do that, Six Flags doesn't do that. Why do they build a berm? So that you don't see out. You can't see the red roof in over there on the parking lot. Because why?

Starting point is 00:46:42 Because we're trying to create a holistic experience and the first thing we've got to do when we get you in is you can't see out. Okay, you start looking at these companies that have figured out, whether it's Savannah, Ben, I don't know, it's Disney. They're thinking holistically about a human having an experience.

Starting point is 00:46:59 And for those leaders that are listening, you know, like what could you do differently? Well, you could think about a human, there's a before there's a during, there's an after to everything. Have you thought that out? Undesigned experiences lead to unpredictable outcomes. That's why that company had a scatterpot graph of all those different stores in the same company producing different outcomes.

Starting point is 00:47:22 Because the experiences weren't designed. Hey leaders, you're an experience designer. That means think about it holistically. Okay, I cut you off. Three, significance. Yeah, so significance is the question, which comes off to harmony, but at some point somebody's going to say, do you know my story and do you care? Or just do you know what I'm feeling do you care.

Starting point is 00:47:43 Do my front story and my backstory. And if you listen to the best leaders, when you ask them, how do you motivate people? The answer is always the same. They always say it depends. It depends on the person. If you ask a teacher, what's the best way to help a student learn? They'll say it depends on the student.

Starting point is 00:47:56 You ask a doctor, what's the best way to help that person get better? Depends on the person. There is a point at which the experience has got to be individualized. Don't start there. That's why this is sequential. So many leaders get this wrong. No, no. start with control. Give me the rules. Give me the world. Help me know the world,

Starting point is 00:48:12 how it works. At some point, though, I'm going to want you to individualize. Tell me you understand my story and what will change because of that story. That's significance. Opposite, of course, is insignificance. And everyone leans out when you start to realize that the leader doesn't really see you. That's a problem. The fourth one is warmth of others. And it's the fourth one, because at some point you pop your head above the parapet, Ryan, and you go, am I going through this alone. And so the question that people are asking in a loving experience is, who's with me, how can they help? Who's with me? How can they help? So many companies have designed onboarding experiences for customers or onboarding experience for employees where you're going

Starting point is 00:48:54 through it by yourself. There's no deliberate linking of you, not just to others in the social media sense, but the warmth of others. It's super interesting to me that the best patient outcomes in hospitals have come from a group called the hospitalist movement where they looked at that siloed series, Ryan, of like experiences for patients. And they went, well, we're not going to change the entire structure of our hospital. But what we could do is we could give each patient a guide all the way through the handoff process. And we'll call them a hospitalist, which they do, and they'll be a physician. Like, they're a healthcare professional, but their entire job is to explain you to all the other healthcare professionals and to explain all the other healthcare professionals

Starting point is 00:49:37 to you. And as a result of that, you feel held. There's one person in this case who's with you on your little journey. They're going to help you. We humans love that when we can see intentionally that we're not going through this in a way that's isolated. Well, there's so much that a leader could do for customers or for employees to maximize the warmth of others. We could get into the whole Jeep thing with Jeep ducking and how wonderful it feels when you drive a wrangler that people give you these plastic ducks. But no one in Jeep tells you how to play. It's like they've got the natural organic warmth of others when you buy a wrangler, but Jeep's not doing anything with it. It's crazy to me that they wouldn't maximize that in some way. What would you do for them? What advice do you

Starting point is 00:50:20 give them? Well, so you've got to be careful, going back to your point about authenticity, you You can't blow it by having a big corporate machine come in and go, here are the three rules for using a Jeep duck. Here's put it on the left side of the hood, not the right. The green ducks mean this and the white ducks. I wouldn't do anything like that at all. I would instead tell stories about Jeep owners. I would have stories about what people love about their Jeep.

Starting point is 00:50:49 And I would share it as an ongoing narrative, a web of love. for when you buy a Jeep, you're a certain kind of person and we've got lots and lots and lots of stories about that. And the way in which you recognize somebody else in the world that has that is you give them a duck. Why a duck? And I would tell the story of Caroline, the Canadian person who came out with Jeep ducking,

Starting point is 00:51:07 and her whole thing was just pay a little love forward. And that's what Jeep Wrangler's all about. Pay a little love forward. And hey, here in this dealership, you can buy some ducks. We don't care how you use them. It's just about being connected to one another in this crazy world about that. That's how I would do it.

Starting point is 00:51:24 And I would make it feel kind of human and messy and idiosyncratic. And like it just came from Caroline, wasn't us. But we love it and we support it. Like there's so many ways you could do it in a nurturing way rather than a mechanistic way. But actually at the moment, they didn't know, in it. Like no one tells you how to play. I just came back one day and there was a duck on my thing. I'm like, what's that? It's weird.

Starting point is 00:51:47 All right, the fifth one's growth. The fifth one's growth. Because love is a forward-facing emotion. If you love anyone, then you don't imagine they're ever finished. imagine they're ever finished. You always imagine they're going to wake up the next day and have to face the world again. So what everyone in any experience is asking themselves on some level is, how will this experience make me more capable? How will it make me more capable tomorrow? And so there's so many lovely little ways in which you as a leader can help people feel more capable.

Starting point is 00:52:12 A tip, a trick, an idea, a thought, anything. Could be big, could be small. But that is actually the last feeling on the sequence. Don't see. start there because people won't give you the right to. And this is what we get wrong when we think about designing love and we think it's just, well, we'll throw a bit of growth and we'll throw a bit of warmth and we'll build it backwards. We'll start with growth and then warmth it. It's like, no, what's happening is feeling by feeling by feeling, we're taking off one plate of armour. And if you haven't taken off the first four, you can't hit them with growth. It's like banks who try to teach you about financial fluency, but they haven't done any of the first four, so you're not

Starting point is 00:52:56 available emotionally or psychologically for that learning. So as a leader, every leader should know, like, this is a sequence. There's a lot of stuff you could do to give people a feeling of control. Okay, figure that out. Then, ongoingly, there's a lot of stuff you could do to give people the feeling that you know what they're feeling and you care. I mean, by the way, simplest thing the leaders could do would be ignore growth, ignore warmth of others, even ignore significant. Just start with the first two. And I would suggest you just check in with each of your people for 15 minutes one by one every week. I just ask them, how did you feel about last week? What do you working on this week? How can I help? Last week, how do you feel? What are you working on this week? How can I help? Do that 52 times a year

Starting point is 00:53:37 with each person individually and you'll hit control and hit harmony. Hit control and hit on. I'd argue you'll hit significance too. Because over time, people will feel like you see this. them. But if you wanted to operationalize love, which does sound a little weird, but if you wanted to operationalize it, you could do a lot worse than put in place that simple check-in rhythm because it will hit those first two feelings so well. Marcus, we opened talking about you and being the fool who blew it up. I want to close by talking about you. Let's fast forward exactly one year from today and you are surrounded by the people you love and that love you and you guys are popping bottles, right? You're celebrating like crazy.

Starting point is 00:54:20 What are you celebrating? Well, gosh, I am doing this because I have kids and I don't want them to continue to grow into a world that is accepting of the pragmatic sense of lovelessness. loveless schools, loveless hospitals, loves workplaces. I don't think that's okay. We know from data that humans don't thrive

Starting point is 00:54:45 in loveless environments at all. We can get by, things function, but on some level, they're broken. And one of the things I'm going to do,

Starting point is 00:54:53 Ryan, is create a free app, which is going to sound silly as I say this now. But I'm just going to have a free app that's got like a staples easy button on it, and it'll actually just be a slider, loving, unloving,

Starting point is 00:55:03 loving, and I'm going to give it away and just say, listen, add your light to the sum of light. I've made an A, that's all they're doing. They know everything that's in the book,

Starting point is 00:55:12 everything from the last 30 years of research, and all it really is is a design partner. And behind the paywall, if you like, is going to be, this AI will sit there as your design partner. Loving, unloving, whatever experience it is. It could be at the bank. It could be the car rental counter. It could be your work.

Starting point is 00:55:27 Loving, unloving. And if it's unloving or loving, then you can just tell the AI what you did, and it will come up with ways in which you can build more love or design more love into that. And then you can send that to whoever. So all of us, and this is like a beautiful use of AI, I think,

Starting point is 00:55:42 is that sometimes it's tricky for us to figure out. How do I make it more loving? I don't know. I've never, muscles atrophied. I don't know what to do. But what you can do is notice. You can notice what's loving or what's not.

Starting point is 00:55:51 Let's call it what it is. There's a whole bunch of stuff in our world right now. It's unloving. Let's not have complicated Yelp reviews or complicated Amazon. We don't need to scale a one. It's five or nothing. So it's love or not love. Let's have everyone use that.

Starting point is 00:56:05 And then we can have a really smart, tightly, precisely defined AI help you think about ways in which you can make it more loving. And if we all add our voices to that, right? We get a world where from the bottom up, we've got a whole group of people going, it's not okay to live in a loveless world. A loveless world doesn't mean, like, for us,

Starting point is 00:56:31 we want more love in the world because humans flourish in that way. It doesn't mean soft. It doesn't mean warm and goo. It doesn't mean kumbaya. It does mean that we should call out unloving when we see it, and it shouldn't be okay to leave it that way. So if I was popping champagne, I would have 10 billion downloads. Let's go with 10 million.

Starting point is 00:56:47 10 million downloads of that free app, and people would be able to use it in their life to add a little bit of their own light to the sum of light. So good. The book's called Design Love In, How to Unleash the Most Powerful Force in Business. Thanks again, Marcus, for writing it, just like your past work.

Starting point is 00:57:08 It's so good and so useful, so practical. So important, honestly. Just so important. And I love this topic. And I love that we got a chance to talk about it. And we use the word love more in this conversation than maybe any I've ever had. So thank you. I loved it.

Starting point is 00:57:22 And I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. Well, me too, mate. Thank you so much to hug me on. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learning leader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Marcus Buckingham.

Starting point is 00:57:45 A few takeaways from my notes. Name your non-negotiables. Marcus is clear. The opposite of design is drift. Decide what loving leadership looks like in your world and then commit to it. Write it down. Make it real. Make it visible.

Starting point is 00:58:04 Remember we got to start with control. The first feeling of love is giving people orientation. before your next new hire, onboarding or team meeting, ask yourself, does this person know what world they're walking into and how to navigate it? They need to start with control. How about checking in weekly one-on-one? Not a performance review, not a status update, a real conversation with another real human being. Marcus says, it's a single most powerful loving practice a leader can do.

Starting point is 00:58:35 Most leaders skip it. They get busy. Get other things going on. Do not be most leaders. Check in weekly one-on-one, make sure everybody is good and progressing. Then ask two questions about every major decision. How does this help our customers love us more? How does this help our employees love working here more?

Starting point is 00:58:56 Not every choice will satisfy them both, but leaders who ask these consistently will be more effective. Once again, I'm going to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling our friend or two, spreading the love. Hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leaders Show with Marcus Buckingham. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that. And you also go to Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and you love on the Learning Leader Show, write a review, rated, hopefully five stars, do all of that.

Starting point is 00:59:28 You are continually giving me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talking soon, can't wait.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 684: Marcus Buckingham - Design Love In, The 5 Feelings Leaders Must Create, The ABCs of Authentic Leadership, and How to Unleash The Most Powerful Force in Business

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