The Life Of Bryony - 33. Bad Drunk: Millie Mackintosh on Sobriety, Motherhood, and Healing

Episode Date: January 20, 2025

Welcome to The Life of Bryony, where we explore life’s messy, beautiful, and challenging moments. MY GUEST THIS WEEK: MILLIE MACKINTOSH This week, I’m joined by Millie Mackintosh—author, former Made in Chelsea star, and advocate for sobriety. Millie opens up about her journey to living alcohol-free and the immense joy and clarity she’s found on the other side of addiction. Her book 'Bad Drunk: How I Found My Freedom from Alcohol and You Can Too' is out now. In this episode: • The pressures of early motherhood and how it can intensify the urge to drink. • The shame of being a “bad drunk” and why owning it is so freeing. • Practical tools and tips for navigating early sobriety and staying on track. • The emotional catharsis of writing Bad Drunk and having honest conversations with loved ones. A gentle warning: This episode includes discussions of sexual assault. We’ve provided links to resources in the show notes for anyone affected by this topic. LET’S STAY IN TOUCH 🗣️ Got something to share? Text or send a voice note on 07796657512—just start your message with LOB. 💬 Use the WhatsApp shortcut: https://wa.me/447796657512?text=LOB. 📧 Prefer email? Drop me a line at [e-mail]. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone who might find Millie’s story inspiring—it really helps! Bryony xx SOME GREAT RESOURCES We’ve provided links to resources in the show notes for anyone affected by the topics discussed in this episode: • The Survivors Trust: Access support for survivors of sexual violence and abuse. Visit www.thesurvivorstrust.org or call their free helpline on 08088 010 818. • Alcohol Change UK: Find advice and resources to help reduce alcohol-related harm. Visit www.alcoholchange.org.uk for free tools and support. • Mind (Mental Health Support): Get help for mental health concerns, including addiction and trauma. Visit www.mind.org.uk, call 0300 123 3393, or text 86463. Presenter: Bryony Gordon Guest: Millie Mackintosh Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan Executive Producer: Mike Wooller A Daily Mail Production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Life of Brian E, the podcast where we chat about all the messy, beautiful and challenging parts of life. Today, I am talking to none other than Millie McIntosh, former star of Maiden Chelsea, author, and now an advocate for living a life free from booze. I need to be responsible for this other human, this baby. I was like, I'm a mother now, how can I act like this? And I just remember crying on the baby's head and like pumping and being like, this is awful. She joins me to talk about her book Bad Drunk. So if you're curious about quitting, this

is well worth a listen. So today is, if you're listening to this on the day that this podcast is released, which I'm sure you all are, it's apparently Blue Monday, which obviously we know is a load of bollocks. However, let's acknowledge that we are now at that stage of January where everything just feels quite hard. It's like day 829 of January and I am just, I'm feeling a bit mad, low. Do you ever see that meme on the internet? It's a very common meme. I'm doing this thing called January, where you get through every day of January.

Have you ever seen that one? That's what I'm doing. I put something up on my Instagram actually on Friday, which was like, this too shall pass, but what the fuck? But passed to what? But in the meantime, what the fuck? And that's genuinely, I think just very much, my brain has been this week, not that kind

to me. And I think that's because I'm like at the end of a big work project. There's been a lot going on in life, which, you know, I spoke about the other week, grief and work and just adulting, I guess. So this week, I've felt really, really mad. I just believe that everyone hates me, that all the work I do is useless. My head is saying these things to me, which are like, like if I heard someone say these about a friend, I'd be like completely shocked, right? But the bonus, the upside of this

is that I'm now at a stage in my recovery. That's sounding like a wellness wanker? I'm now at the stage in my recovery where there's another voice in my head which comes out and is like, but is that true, Bryony? Is that true? Are all those things you're saying, are they true? Are you really a piece of shit the world revolves around? I like that fact you were checking yourself earlier now as well. You're being your own therapist, are you like? I'm being my own therapist, which is a lot cheaper than going to see an actual therapist every time I hear a bad thing in my head. But anyway, can I tell you, Jonathan, what

happened yesterday? I was on the phone to someone and I'd just gone to, I'd gone to CrossFit because that was going to cheer me up. And I was walking back and I was on a work phone call and I was standing outside Gales, my local Gales, which is like where I spend a lot of free time. Wouldn't it be great if they sponsored the podcast? It would be. I was standing outside Gales on the phone and there was this woman who had just finished a run and she was having her cup of coffee and she sort of tapped me on the shoulder and showed me her phone. Bear in mind, I was on the phone so I couldn't like ring off or whatever. And she showed me her phone and she showed me that she was listening to this podcast.

Oh my God, that's so nice. She was listening to The Life of Briony. The world is tiny if you think about it. Yeah, she's our one listener. And she said, and she said, I love this. I love this show. And I was like, thank you. And I blew her a kiss.

And I just I wanted to just say to that woman. That hard actor. That wee heart. I just wanted to thank her. It really, really made a massive difference to my mood and my week and it sort of brought me back into reality of my life, which is that like, it's all okay. I'm okay. It's all okay. I'm quite lucky in the grand scheme of things. But it was also just such a nice, generous thing to do. Yeah, it is actually. And I think we don't tell each other enough. I'm quite effusive. If I like something that

someone's done, I tell them again and again and again. And they're a bit like, okay, back off, lady. Back off. Let me get a restraining order. But I realized that lots of people are like that, you know, and actually I think if you, if you like something, if you, or if something has given you joy that another person has done, like just tell them. Yeah. And you know what? You don't have to tell them then and there as well, because you can always, if you're thinking about them, having maybe met them a couple of days ago beforehand, you can always just text them and go, Hey, you know, that thing you said blah, blah, blah, about work. Well done. You know, you can, it's never a wrong time.

That's almost more impactful. Yeah, I think so too. After the event, it's like dropping a bit of joy into everyone's day. So I wonder if today, basically, we should all just send someone we appreciate a note telling them why we appreciate them. Jonathan, I don't think you're going to do that. You just don't strike me as the kind of person that would send someone a loving message. I think sometimes in my friend group, particularly with my close friends, if I did that, they would be worried I was dying. They would be like, what is up?

I have sometimes tried to send you messages going, oh, I really like working with you. Oh, it's been a real like, you know, I'm really enjoying. And it's just like tumbleweed blows through the WhatsApp chat. And on the flip side, I said to you recently, I don't like giving you too many comments, because it's like giving a dog too many treats, which is so insulting and so rude. Actually, I'm going to take the podcast to apologize for that comment. So I, you know, I think you're right though. I think it's a nice thing to do, but I think sometimes people feel a bit awkward. Yeah. But it's a bit like when you're a kid, like in the school and in the playground and the boy that pulls your pigtails obviously is in love with you. Yeah. He's the one thinking about you. So you mean you're in love with me, Jonathan? I'm always meanest to the people I like the most. I don't think that you're in love with me, Jonathan? I'm always meanest to the people I like the most. I don't think that you're in love with me.

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Let's create the agent-first future together. Head to salesforce.com slash careers to learn more. If you liked this episode, we think you'll love this. This week on The Life of Briny, I'm joined by Lottie Clark. She shares the story of her husband James' motor neuron disease diagnosis, his decision to go to Dignitas and their campaign for the right to die with dignity. If you want to hear a story of love, resilience and the importance of choice, this episode is for you.

The Life of Briony, available now. Now listen guys, if you are loving the conversation so far, or even just mildly enjoying it, good news. There are two episodes every week. Hit follow now so I can be part of your weekly routine. I really enjoyed chatting to Millie. We've got friends in common but had never met before and but I felt it's like I do when I speak to other people who describe themselves openly as bad drunks or alcoholics. Always, always immediately you get to the nitty gritty. You

know, you go to a level that can take years with other people, you know, and I just I really loved talking to Millie and I really appreciate her candour. We touched on her early struggles, motherhood, and actually the immense joy she's found in sobriety, which people don't talk about enough, frankly. We think that it's going to be boring, dull, our lives are going to be over, but actually they're just beginning. A quick note, this episode includes discussions of sexual assault early on.

We've added links to resources in the show notes if this is a subject that has affected you. For now, enjoy my chat with Millie. This book, I just want to start by saying thank you. It has the best title of any sobriety book, Bad Drunk. Yeah, I was a bad drunk. Me too. And it was like this dirty secret that I had to kind of try and hide from the world.

I was so ashamed of how I acted when I was drunk. It was like just the worst thing ever to admit it. And then once I did say it out loud, like I am a bad drunk, I need to stop drinking. It's really freeing, just owning it and being like, yeah. But also realizing that like some people just are. I always remember when I met my husband, I remember we went to this wedding.

Yeah, weddings for me. Weddings anyway, are they? A wedding, yeah. Like let's, you know, the drinks, receptions, where they don't give you any food. For hours. For hours on end. And I remember just making a complete, well, I don't remember, I blacked out. Like, like you, my drinking was usually to black out. And I remember the next day, my husband, he was then, my then boyfriend, I remember him saying to me, Brynie, you really can't handle your drink.

You're really, you have a problem with alcohol. You can't drink. And I remember being so ashamed and so horrified. And I sort of like went into defensive mode and was like, how dare you say that? Yeah. You know, but it is true that thing of like, oh, you're a bad drunk.

You can't handle your drink. And you're judged. Yeah. As if it's like a thing of like, oh, you're a bad drunk, you can't handle your drink. And you're judged. Yeah. As if it's like a moral... Like a choice. Yeah. As if... Yeah, exactly.

Like, people who can drink and hold their drink are sort of morally superior to those of us who can't. Exactly. That is definitely a thing. So this book, it's essentially your experience with alcohol. The subtitle of it is, it's Bad Drunk, How I Found My Freedom from Alcohol and You Can Too. And you've written it with the wonderful doctor, Dr. Ellie Cannon.

So it's very much each chapter is you talking about your experiences and then Ellie comes in and gives the sort of expert advice and picture of what alcohol does to your body and your brain. I just want to start by asking you, how do you feel now? We're meeting like the week before it comes out. I've written a book about my own getting sober myself and my own kind of escapades with alcohol. And I know how exposing that can feel, you know, like it's like we have to relive that shame of being the bad drunk again. How are you feeling right now?

Feel a bit like, you know, when you have one of those dreams and you're naked in public, it feels a bit like that, like really exposing. But I also I feel really good about putting the book out. So it's kind of like feeling the fear and doing it anyway. Yeah, I am nervous for that initial push, just like knowing it's out there, people are reading it, people are reading such personal things that have happened to me, but remembering why I've done the book

with the aim to help people like us who struggle with alcohol misuse, addiction, whether it's, you know, mine or major. And also it's felt like such a cathartic experience writing the book that at one point I considered not releasing it for like lots of different reasons. And I was like, I feel like I can't move on from this period. And until I actually just like release it. There is a lot of honesty in it. But I think that's crucial to it. Like you can't write

a book about being a bad drunk or having a problem with alcohol if you don't detail the experience of what it's like. I wanted to really go there. And you have gone there. And I kind of wanted to, I mean, you say this yourself about when you want to go back to like 14 year old Millie and take her in your arms and go, oh my God, you know, like, I just want to say, I'm really sorry for the things that happened to you, you know, because it's it's and but it really resonated with me.

There's this episode in your life that you write about really clearly. And it's when you're 14 and it's one of the first times you drink. Do you want to talk about what happened or do you want to? I can say I was I've done a lot of therapy around this. So I did I really spent a lot of time deciding if I was comfortable to put it in the book. And I felt that I'd done the healing that I needed to do, that I was in a place where I felt safe

to tell the world about it. And also it made sense for me to include this bit of the book because it was so linked to my drinking. And when I first started drinking and when it started going wrong from this quite young age of 14 when I was at a party and sadly this has happened to so many people that I know, something similar, I think it's like one in four people has been sexually assaulted.

And yeah, it happened to me when I was 14 and it was the first time that I got blackout drunk and passed out. And I've just carried so much shame for so many years. It's... But it's not something that I should feel any shame about. And it wasn't even until in the last five years that I actually realized I'd been assaulted. Right. Because for so long, I believed it was my fault.

Right, because you'd been drinking. So you came to and there was someone on top of you. Yeah. So I'd passed out at a party and I would put in a bedroom, like whenever I was sleeping off. I think my parents were on their way to collect me, because I was 14, there were adults there, but they weren't watching really what was going on. And I woke up with a boy on top of me, and he had undone my clothes, and it was a real shock just to be figuring out what is going on, and how can this be happening to me?

I haven't said, this is okay, it was happening when I wasn't conscious. And then he was very unpleasant to me as I pushed him off. And yeah, my parents collected me and I didn't tell them. I was just too embarrassed. And then, yeah, I went back to school the next day and didn't tell anyone and just like buried it down and blamed myself. And then the kind of saddest bit about it for me is that I didn't think, okay, if

you drink a lot, you're vulnerable and you need to look after yourself and be responsible for your own health and safety and it wasn't my fault. And I wish I'd realized that, but also what I continued to do was get in that situation. Yeah. I think that's a really interesting thing, isn't it? It's like two things can be true at the same time, that it's not your fault. And like, I guess, okay, if we think logically about what would, when I say, quote unquote, normal person, I mean, someone that doesn't have a drinking problem. If one weekend they'd gone out and got so blackout drunk that they had been vulnerable to a predator, let's put it that way. Yeah. They probably wouldn't the next weekend

go out and get blackout drunk again. They'd learn from that experience. Again, it's not to put any blame on. This resonates with me because the same thing happened to me. You know, like numerous times. And there are people out there who know more about what happened to me while I was drinking than I do still, because I was in blackout.

I'd come to, I remember always coming to on a staircase and a bloke being there. Or like, yeah, like coming to in someone's bed and being like, how did I get here? Yeah. I remember waking up in my own bed and there were like stains on my coat, you know, like when I say stains, I mean nasty, you know, and when I say stains, I mean, nasty, you know, and thinking I have no idea how that got there. I have no idea what happened and still to this day. And that's something I have to just make peace with, you know. But it's having that total disregard for your own safety because I guess the pursuit of blackout and numbing

yourself is more important than your own safety. Yeah. Now I have daughters as well. It's so scary to think about them being teens, them drinking and them being in a dangerous situation. And I will have to have the conversation with them when they're old enough and tell them what happened to me. And I hope that it will act as a bit of a warning and that I can set a good example to them by not drinking. Not that I expect them to never drink, but just understand the risks. Yeah. So have your parents read this?

So they have read it and they are supportive, but it's really forced me to have some very uncomfortable conversations because I hadn't told them ever. About these things. About these things. And so I had to sit them down and talk to them about the sexual assault and that was really painful for all of us. And I think for me and my mum, I meant touch on it in the book, we were quite separate in my teens. I think this dynamic often happens

with girls and their moms. And I didn't tell her things. I kind of wanted to rebel against them, against my school, against just rules in general. And I had a lot of anger. Didn't know where to direct it. I mean, I directed it myself, but also outwardly and at them. And now I'm trying

to bridge the gap and now be able to have those uncomfortable conversations that we didn't have then. But it's just like this ugly area of my life that we never talk about as a family because it was painful for them as well. But the book, it's made us have conversations that we should have had a long time ago. And I'm grateful for that. I think sometimes as well, it's like, I've definitely got to that stage in my life where I realise that also sometimes it's okay if people don't understand. I think they don't love that I'm doing the book because it's talking about topics for that generation, you know, it's not really something you talk about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have a drinking problem. It's like, why would you put that on a book cover? When I wrote, by the way, I'm very grateful that you recommend Glorious Rott Bottom at the back of it. And when I wrote Glorious Rott Bottom, which was about my experiences of getting sober and obviously I had to give it to my parents to read before it went out and my mum sent me a message and was like, I really don't think that you should allow this book to be published. And, you know, her reasoning was this isn't like any judgment against my mom. It was just her reasoning was like, you have been really vulnerable and raw. And these

are some of these things are awful happened. And I remember being like, that reaction is why I have to publish this book. Yeah. Because whether we like it or not, these things happen. They happen to women. They happen to men as well. They happen to, you know, pointedly mothers, you know, and either we want people to get better and we want people to live lives where they are not a slave to alcohol. Yeah, where they're free. Yeah, or we don't.

And if we want that to happen, we have to be honest. And like for me, I mean, I've said this so many times, and you know, if you're listening, and you've heard this, but I feel like it can't be said enough. I remember when I had to go to rehab, and I remember we had these sessions where we we had to talk about the kind of the worst things that had happened to us while we were drinking. And she said, shame dies when you expose it to the light. And I think it is true, because once you get it out there, like you just hit on that where you feel like once this is out, it can't hurt you anymore.

It can't hurt me. Yeah. Like for like all of my twenties, I was like so desperate for no one to find out. Yeah. You know, if I got pictured to like Hammett, I was like, oh, this is like the worst thing ever. Like I don't want anyone to know that I was so ashamed. Well, your twenties were, 20s were made in Chelsea. You were married to a rap star. You were sort of in the papers.

You were a regular feature. And you really do touch on that. I found it fascinating that you're incredibly honest. You talk about a lot of the time you were self-medicating with sedatives, with Xanax. That was something I was quite scared to put in the book. And I was like, is it too vulnerable? Is it too far? But it's real and it's honest. And actually, as well as it went hand in hand with the drinking, it kind of became a crutch that was like, I needed it to cope with my

drinking. And it was really toxic. And I mean, it's so damaging for your brain and so addictive as well. Again, that's the madness of it, isn't it? It's that thing of like to cope with the drinking we don't stop. That would be the obvious thing just remove the alcohol, don't then need another thing. But I needed another drug to be able to enable me to cope with this thing that I need. It's like I mean I was the same but my drug was instead of Xanax was cocaine because I needed to be able to continue to drink. Let's just stop. Yeah, but for me, it was like the next day, it was like, if I'm hungover and I've got a function or I've got to go out drinking again, Xanax would allow me, you know, just

tone the anxiety down enough so that I could face whatever I had to do. Which often was very kind of like high profile. Yeah, like going to a massive event or, you know. Walking a red carpet. You talk about you got alcohol poisoning twice. Yeah, I remember actually being in hospital when I was in my late teens. And maybe with a group of uni friends, I wasn't at uni.

You know how they party in uni towns? Like it's just like so much binge drinking. You talk about about I mean This is the kind of again and again. I just want you to know Millie I am NOT saying any of this with any judgment whatsoever Because I mean we could the two that you know, like I could I could we would have had a riot We might not even be sitting here today. No, no, we might have died.

We wouldn't remember. We wouldn't remember. We may have well done. We could have done. Gone on a night out together and it's lost to the universe. Do you ever have this thing where I get people come up to me and they go, oh, Briny. All the time. I haven't had the wildest night out of my life with you.

And I'm like, I don't remember who you are People constantly come up to me and they're like, Millie, how are you? And I'm like, no, no flu I think it's also my ADHD like awful memory for names and faces But the idea that's really uncomfortable feeling if they start saying things like, you know, that was that it was quite wild and we were there And I'm like, oh god, I just don't remember. And that does get that make the shame come up for me. It's like, I'm an adult and there's another human telling me about the experience they had with me

and I have no recollection of it. But talk about that because I think that is the shame. Like, oh, I just know there will be people listening right now who absolutely get that. And just as you said that, like the shame came up for me on like, I mean, it happens less often now, but like... I have dreams, like nightmares, and drinking dreams, and I'm always so relieved when I wake up.

It's like, and then in the dream, I feel the shame because I've had a dream. Drunk again. Yeah, because I've drunk again. How do you, mine always manifest. I have these dreams where I have drunk, but not only have I drunk, but I've never actually stopped drinking. And the whole way through, I've like every couple of months I've gone on these binges, but claimed I'm sober. I actually have had these dreams as well and it's like everyone's going to find out that

you're a massive fake and that you're like, and pretending to be sober and you're actually drinking. Oh my god this is like the worst feeling ever. Then I wake up and I'm like oh my god thank god it wasn't real, it wasn't real. Yeah I've had that as well. I remember someone saying to me though, actually I was talking about this with our, we've got a mutual friend who, how I'm really grateful for those dreams now because they are a way to remind me of how awful drinking was without actually picking up a drink. Sometimes you have to kind of reframe the kind of... Yeah, no, it's a really good reminder. And then when you get the relief, you're like, oh, thank God, like, this is great.

Like, I'm not hungover. Yeah. I don't have any of that shame. I can just like let go of it. Yeah. You know, I'm still quite new into this. It's been like two and a half years. So the memories of my bad drunk behavior still feel quite raw.

Some of them and some of the ones that are in the book when I was writing it, those feelings of shame were washing over me. But when I started writing the book, I felt really nauseous the first day. I was like, is there something wrong with my stomach? And then I realized it was just an emotional thing. It was bringing everything up to be healed. Yeah. That was actually like retching.

But it was just like energy, just like waiting to come out and be released. That needed to be probably. You talk about this event in your career where you were asked to the Amphar Gala in Cannes. You basically end up having to be signed for like a parcel. Oh God, it's so embarrassing. Sorry, I don't know. It's okay. Like I put it in the book.

Could you talk us through this very embarrassing moment? like a parcel. Oh, God, it's so embarrassing. Sorry. I don't know. It's OK. I put it in the book. So it's OK. Could you talk us through this very embarrassing moment? No, but I think because it's outwardly, people would just see the pictures and have no clue. Yeah. Here's glamorous Millie McIntosh on the red carpet in Cannes living her best life.

Yeah. And what you don't see. What you don't see is afterwards. The aftermath. The organizers realizing you were so drunk. And because it was so exclusive, you couldn't bring your agent with you. So they had to call your agent and say,

we've got a situation. We've got a situation. We need to get Millie out of there. Kick her out of there. And they had to basically put you in a car to take you back. And I was unconscious. But the thing that really, this other bit of it that really struck me and

really I really related to was that you had this thing in your diary for ages and it was like this big glittering thing that you were kind of like... Wow, I felt like so lucky to have been invited. And then just as it's about to happen, you fuck it up. Yeah, such a self-sabotage. This is the ultimate self-sabotage. Yeah. But that's so relatable. I think of the amount of times that I had a big thing, and I was like, can't go out, can't go out, can't go out, can't go out.

And then the night before, I'd go out and get completely off my tits and wouldn't. Which is the worst thing you can do. But that is a very sort of bad, drunk behavior. Because it's like the anxiety of the event, the fear of it's the imposter syndrome. I'm not good enough to be there. And then acting out just, you know, like, okay, well, let's make it easier. I'll try and self sabotage to the point that you can't even go. Yeah. And then actually still going and just self sabotaging at a public event. Oh, God. Yeah, it's really embarrassing

when I think back to it. I mean, my saving grace was that there was no pictures of me being put into a taxi like a parcel, but I don't know, maybe if there had been, maybe would I have stopped sooner? I don't know, there was a couple of events, that was the worst one, I would say, but there was definitely a couple of work events where I got really pissed and you know just not

responsible. That one is just remembering like that you know the hours spent like with the stylist finding the perfect outfit wearing this couture dress like you know actually being on a diet for like a month so I could fit in the dress like you know just like all this pressure to feel like I was good enough to be there. And then it ending so badly. Yeah, it's I have a lot more compassion for that girl now as well. I feel like sad for her. Let's talk about that girl because, you know, you are not the only person from that made in Chelsea cohort who has since come out to say,

I have a problem with alcohol and I've had to stop drinking. In fact, there seems to be more of you that have done that. That haven't, do you know what I mean? It's not that surprising. And what I want to ask you is like, when you look back on that time, I mean, you're very magnanimous about the whole thing.

You're like, you had some great times and it was great fun. But was there a kind of duty of care there that was, what was, I mean, when you look back and look at that girl, you think, oh my God, I can't believe that she was parachuted into that kind of situation. I wouldn't normally drink much on set because there was one or two times quite in the first season, where I was a bit tipsy on camera and I watched watched it back and was like oh god that was like not good

like don't do that again. But there was one episode which was very emotional for me where I had been told something on camera that was very upsetting to do with someone that was in love with at the time and then I found out that they'd like cheated on me and like I've like walked out the scene crying and I was like I want to leave I want to go home and we were filming in the middle of nowhere in the countryside and they were like you can't go like we don't have any cars the middle of nowhere in the countryside and they were like, you can't go. We don't have any cars here. They were like, you need to stay here

until everyone leaves at this time. And I was just like, I just can't be here, I need to go. And I was put in a room with a producer and a bottle of champagne and coaxed into staying and then going and filming another scene. Wow. Whilst being filled with Dutch courage. And like being told that your boyfriend at the time had cheated on you, like, so there's

a sort of like emotional manipulation. There's so much, so many different layers of manipulation going on there. Yeah. But it made great TV. But I was not okay. I remember when I left filming that evening and when I went back to London, my anxiety was through the roof.

I was really struggling with my mental health at that time. I'm so sorry. I think there must be a better duty of care now. I wasn't doing therapy. I wasn't really as aware of anxiety and my mental health at that time. But looking back now, I know that I did have a lot of anxiety and my mental health at that time. But looking back now, I know that I did have a lot of anxiety,

but I was starting to have panic attacks then. Yeah, and I suppose perhaps it just felt normal. Yeah. I always think, I look back at some of the situations, you know, like at the time I didn't realize they were dysfunctional because they were my normal. Yeah, and you're used to constantly living in that state. Of hypervigilance. Yeah state of hypervigilance.

Yeah, of hypervigilance. Yeah. It's a lot. It was a lot. The show started airing and watching all the tweets come in. Right. So yeah, let's talk about that because that's another level of like strangers on the internet telling you what they think of you.

And just I would sit there with like an enormous glass of wine and watch the tweets come in and just read like every single one. Well, it's like, you know you know depending on what I just read like glugging it or like yeah yeah and just you know in during the episode we'd easily have drunk like a bottle and did it ever occurred you not to read the tweets it was kind of like a sick like torture torture I get I couldn't not look it was like constantly like cutting myself but I guess it's like putting a glass up against a door and hearing your name and then being like, I'm not going to listen. Like, of course we would all listen. Yeah. And there'd be nice ones as well.

But did you pay any attention to the nice ones, Millie? Or did you focus entirely on the negative ones? Those, yeah. The ones that like stay and leave the scars are always the negative ones. Those, yeah, the ones that stay and leave the scars are always the nasty ones. I feel like you're a survivor and you've kind of come through. And I wondered how you deal now because you've got a lot of followers. That you must have developed some sort of coping skills

to be able to block some of it out. You probably wouldn't. I have a lot more now. I realized that in order for something someone else says to hurt me, I have to believe it to be true. Yes. So that really helps. And also realizing other people's opinions of me are not my business.

I remember someone when I first got sober saying to me, they said, what other people think of you is none of your business. And I was like, I think you'll find it's my only business. But it was, but actually when you stop and you think about it, it's so empowering because it's like, people can have opinions of me. But that's for them. And it's not personal. No, it's not about you.

Their reaction to you is all about them. That makes it easier remembering that. So your personal life has been always quite public. Yeah, from like 20, 21. Yeah, and how old are you now? 35. Wow, so that's like all of your adult life basically has been on television or in the newspapers. Professor Green, he...

Stephen, yeah, we... Stephen, he saw you on the cover of a magazine and called up the editor to get your number. This is how most of us date. The classic way of meeting someone. It was a whirlwind. I was 23 when I got engaged, married at 24. We were just such different people then. That's why people were fascinated with the story, weren't they? Because it was like Posh Girl from Chelsea.

Yeah, and I was kind of running away from Maiden Chelsea. And I ran to someone that was from a completely different area of London, a completely different background, a completely different industry. But yeah, at the time I wasn't really aware that I was escaping, but looking back now with hindsight was definitely running away from my problems and creating new problems. And I think we were both not in a great place and we were kind of mirrors to each other's traumas. And it was pretty toxic. Yeah. Have you had any contact with him? Yeah, we were actually emailed because it's like, hey, got a book coming out and I have mentioned your name. So I thought it was polite to let him know.

And yeah, we had actually really nice chat because we've both been diagnosed with ADHD. And actually looking back, I can really like understand that how that affected our relationship and our behavior and our relationship with alcohol. And we just, yeah, we shared pictures of our kids, wished each other well. He said, like, good luck with the book. It was actually really nice. It gave me some really nice closure. I think that's really beautiful and healing. Yeah, it was like this is like a therapy session that I really needed. But also that ability for you both to understand the purpose you serve to each other at the time. Which we can only do now. Yeah. Because we're doing our own kind of

work on ourselves. Yeah. And you know, it's like 10 years later. I think there's something incredibly healing about that. I love that idea that people, you know, different times of your life, different relationships serve. Yeah. I'm just thinking about if there's anyone listening now who's tuned in because they think they have a problem with alcohol and their life feels very out of control, that it's really wonderful to be able to hear from people to say that 10 years in the future, this is what life can look like and what feels awful now could be quite beautiful and healing. Yeah. And you'll look back on it and understand why you were in so much pain and why you were

acting that way and why you had the issue with alcohol. Yeah. You are now married to Hugo. Yes. We've been married six years. Congratulations. Thank you. I mean, Hugo, you've written in a book that Hugo said to you, if you don't stop drinking, it's going to end our marriage. Yes.

How did that feel when he said that? Oh, it felt awful because I was so hungover when he said it. And I was already just so filled with self-loathing because it was after the last time I got really drunk. I didn't stop drinking though. It took me about another five days of drinking. So it was like so nearly there. Then we were about to go on holiday and I was like, I can't not drink on holiday, which is ridiculous because not drinking on holiday

now I think is like the best thing ever because you can properly enjoy it. But in that headspace I was in, I was like very anxious because I'd got horribly drunk at a wedding. Then we were on holiday a few days later and I was drinking and things were a bit rocky between us and a couple of days into the holiday I had a massive panic attack after a night of drinking. And after that panic attack we went for a hike and that's when I said I need to stop drinking. And that was, was that that? Yeah. Wow.

So he'd said he'd give kind of give me an ultimatum a few days before and I wanted to say in that moment like I'll stop drinking like just for him but it really had to like click into place for me to want it enough for myself I'll stop drinking just for him. But it really had to click into place for me to want it enough for myself, not just to do it for him. Do you think as well, I really do believe that sometimes things have to get really painful and really bad for us to be able to come out the other side?

Yeah, you have to have your rock bottom so that then you're really ready to change. So yeah, that was like two and a half years ago. And it's like the best decision I've ever made. It was ruining my relationship. I mean, I was self-destructing and my behavior was destructive. I mean, it's very hard to be with a bad drunk. I'm sure anyone that is struggling with how they use alcohol

will find it affects their relationships, because you end up saying things you don't mean. You end up, I mean, it affects everyone differently for me. I'd actually started to get quite angry and nasty. I was going to say, you say that the last years of your drinking were filled with an immense rage. But it wasn't like if I was on a night out that I'd just have been in an immense rage with like a stranger. It would be at the end of the night and it would be directed at him. Right.

Probably like when we got home. And in the morning I would often not remember what I'd said but he'd be really upset with me. And I'd just be like, what did I say? When he told me I'd be like so horrified the things I would have said because they were never things that I would think that alone to say. So it was just like being just just actually being really cruel. So how old were your kids when you got sober? They were six months and two. I mean I wanted to talk to you about that because you've been really honest and I really really I mean I'm so grateful for everything that

you've put in this book Millie but especially the stuff about early motherhood and that kind of shock of like you have kids and I like I really related to you talking about when you were pregnant, you were like, oh, I don't want to drink. Yeah. I was like, this is great. I have a reason not to drink and I don't want to drink and I love it. I don't know about you, but when I was pregnant, it just did not occur to me that I would ever go back to the way I was before. I just assumed that pregnancy was going to do for me what-

I didn't even think about it. It just was like, yeah. I'll be a sophisticated one glass a week of red wine drinker. Yeah. I don't know why I thought that because I never drank red wine. Yeah, the occasional glass of rosé. But then, and you really describe this really well, how that kind of shock when you have a baby and then you're like, well, actually, I probably need a few drinks to kind of just remember who I really am.

And I deserve it because- I deserve it because have you seen the day I've had? Yeah. And this will get me through bedtime and all this like mad justification we do, right? I don't know if you had any disastrous nights out with like groups of mums. I don't think any of the mums that I knew at the time drank as heavily as I did. So it was like I couldn't possibly go out with them because they would have been horrified. But I do also know that there is that kind of thing of mummy gin o'clock wine culture,

do you know what I mean? So tell me about your disastrous nights with mums. I just remember like, you know, like a night where you would go over to another mum's house, there'd be maybe like eight of you there. And it would end up being like an episode of like desperate housewives of like, you know, Chiswick. Like where, you know, I'm suddenly like- The real housewives of Chiswick.

Well, you know, like just because I'd literally suddenly be in a catfight with some women that I've just met and... Really? Yeah. Oh my God. And then like trying to get home and like can't get the keys in the lock. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Have to wake everyone up, like wake, you go up and then the baby wakes up and then you're just like a complete mess. I remember, um, like going on a night out and then like the

next morning having to just pump. Yeah the pumping, or you've forgotten to pump when you should have pumped when you were drinking. Yeah. And then look so obviously you wake up and you're like really engorged. I had that after the first time I got drunk after I had my first baby and the pain and like the shame and the pain at the same time. Yeah. And I just remember crying on the baby's head and being like, I can't, like just feeding her a bottle and like crying on her head and like pumping and being like, this is awful.

Do you know what, Millie, that's like the most powerful image. And it's one that I think is really important because I've heard it said by other moms that I know through Getting Sober, one of my best friends in sobriety. I remember her saying that like she remembers breastfeeding one of her kids and just all she could think about was where she was going to get cocaine, you know, in her case that was in the next drink and sobbing on the baby's head. And I think that, you know, it's really important to talk about those dark moments because you can come through them to the other side. But I think the shame of... How can I do this? How could I have acted like this? I need to be responsible for this

other human, this baby. Like, I'm a mother now. How can I act like this? Also that thing of like this beautiful baby, why can't this make me stop? Why hasn't this made me whole and complete and fixed all my problems? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because like you've got this miracle baby.

For me, it was like having that drink, where I'd always had the issue of having one and wanting 100 instantly. When I had a baby that was like, just couldn't get enough. Once I'd had one, it was like, suddenly all my problems disappeared and all the like stress I've been carrying and that one glass of wine and it was the best feeling ever and then you just chase the feeling. Do you think in a way that having kids was that the kind of the extra push that you needed? Yes.

To make you realize you were a bad drunk and you had a problem with alcohol? I had realized a few years before actually when I was, maybe the year before I got pregnant that my drinking and Xanax use were problematic and I'd actually seen a sober coach for a bit. But then I went, convinced myself after not drinking for like two months that I could drink moderately now

because I had like learned how to control my drinking. Obviously lies that we tell ourselves and I'll just have one or, you know, only tequila. Just a small life tip for anyone listening. If you can't moderate your drinking now, you will never be able to moderate your drinking. When I actually stopped drinking, like for good, at the beginning I did think, once I fix myself,

I'll be able to drink again. Well, now I know everything that alcohol does to the brain and body. Why would I want to? I'm not, I'm genuinely not tempted. I wondered how have your friendships changed? You touched on actually your relationship with Hugo. I'm assuming that's got much better. It's got much better. We both actually did a lot of our own healing and did our own therapy. We did some therapy together and we both went off and did our own healing journey so that we could then just be in a better place and we could understand each other. He knows me so well. He literally has known me since I was 16.

But he must be so proud of you as well. Yeah, at the beginning I think he didn't really know if I was going to be able to do it. You know, he'd lost faith in because I'd said so many times I'm gonna stop drinking, until he saw me do it month by month. I think then slowly he was like okay she really means it. It was uncomfortable for a while I'm honest because when you're not drinking there's nowhere to hide. Yeah. So all the things that we weren't dealing with in our relationship suddenly were glaringly obvious so it forced us to then have to do the work. Address that.

And it didn't just, it wasn't just great because I stopped drinking. Which is I think, and also my own like stuff, my own personal like mental health stuff. Came up. Came up. I thought I was just fixed because I had stopped drinking. Yeah. I was like, all my problems have gone. Yeah, no, this is the realization that alcohol is not the problem. I'm the problem. Yeah, you're like, oh, shit.

I haven't even started yet. What about friendships? Have some of those fallen away and developed new ones, I'm assuming? Definitely. Some have fallen away. Some groups that I felt maybe the kind of like groups you'd meet up with, groups of friends you'd meet up with,

and everyone would be drinking. I then would find myself not invited on those dinners or nights out. And it did hurt a bit at first, but then I also imagined going sober and realized it wouldn't be fun at all. So I was, and then I was actually quite delighted to not be invited.

But at the beginning it felt like a bit of an- Gawling. Yeah, like it felt like uncomfortable. You know, what's that say about me if they don't want me there sober? But it would just be uncomfortable for everyone, I think, because... What does it say about them? Yeah. That they don't want you there sober? But people don't want someone sober to make it their drinking, you know, it kind of...

Well, but that's an interesting thing, the holding a mirror up, you know? And you make this point in the book very well that if people are uncomfortable with your not drinking, it's probably because it's reflecting something back to them. Yeah. And you have to be prepared that even people that you think are your really good friends might be the ones that are actually the most uncomfortable with your decision and might be the ones to actually say, go on, why don't you have a drink? I had people say things to me like, oh, you're not still doing that sober thing, are you?

Come on, just have one, cheeky one, won't do any harm. You know, things like that. You're like, won't do any harm. You have no idea. You have no fucking idea. So it's a proud moment. Actually, I actually quite enjoy it now when it makes people uncomfortable.

I know what you mean. That made me sound like a dick. But like, no. And you're like, oh, no, actually, I don't drink. And they're like, oh. But like, I, and you're like, oh, no, actually, I don't drink. And they're like, oh. But like, I feel so proud to be a non-drinker. No, I feel really proud to say it. It's interesting to watch people react to it.

I also think people say, what do you people often say to me? What do you say to people when they ask you why you're not drinking? And I say, well, I tell them the truth. I'm an alcoholic. And they go, oh, and that shuts them up pretty quickly. Yeah. As you have a drinking problem.

They're like, oh. I'm a bad drunk. Here's my book. Yeah. Yeah. So what this book is also really good on is just practical tips for getting sober. I mean, there's some really useful tips in the book

for early days, sobriety, how to, you know, things to look out for. Have a plan. Always have a plan. Okay, let's talk firstly about hungry, angry, lonely, tired. Yeah, so you learn this in AA. Yes. Yeah. Don't allow yourself guys to get hungry, angry, lonely or tired. Yeah, snacks in the bag. Yeah. Friends on speed dial. Yeah. Have ways to vent your anger that are healthy like screaming into a pillow. Boxing. Boxing. Running.

Running's a good one for me. I think it is those things, like the really practical things are like watch out for the little things that can get you, like just try and get a good night's sleep. Try and don't, you know, I always remember someone saying don't find yourself staring off into the middle distance. Do you know what I mean? Just keep busy. Just keep busy.

Yeah. Yeah. When you're looking at your diary and calendar and what you're committing to, especially in those early sobriety days, I think looking at your diary and what you've said yes to or what you're considering going to, is this going to be too hard? Is this self-care or is this self-harm? That's a brilliant question. And don't have any guilt for not going to something you said you'd go to. If it's your best mate's wedding, obviously, you know, you want to be there.

But it totally depends what it is. If something's going to be too hard and you think it's going to be the thing that pushes you to drink, then just don't go. Don't do it. Yeah. And actually, a real friend will really understand. Yeah.

You talk about also leaving early. And I don't tell anyone. I maybe tell one person. Is it French exit? Yeah. Is that what they call it? Yeah, French exit. Yeah, Is that what they call it? Yeah, French exit.

Yeah, I do that too now. Don't just go. And if it's too uncomfortable to say you're going, just be like, I'm just going to answer this call or I'm just going to go to the bathroom and then you just like slip out. Literally no one notices. Especially if everyone's already like a couple of drinks in. Yeah, it's wild to realize, shit, no one is thinking about me. No one can.

When people say, do you miss going out? I'm like, nope, not at all. I did all the going out. I need to. I said that in the book. It's like, I've had all the drinks that you need ever. The other thing that I really like about the book is no one owns sobriety.

Do it the way that helps you. And I just think the more stuff there is out there about living an alcohol-free life, the better. Yeah, for me, one of the things I want to do with the book is make sobriety sexy. You're actually present, you're not like slurring your words, you get your time back. You have clarity, you wake up every morning remembering... Not hating yourself. ...how you got home.

I mean, the amount of time that's freed up by not waking up and going, what the fuck did I do? Yeah. Having to go through your phone to see the receipts. Just living in constant fear. I was living in constant fear that there was going to be pat pictures of me wasted, waiting for a call from my agent to be like, Millie, what the fuck is this? With camera phones, it had happened to me a couple of times.

Then every time I was out, if I was drinking in public, I was then terrified the next morning that someone posted evidence of it somewhere. Paranoia. Yeah. Constant. Constant. So if someone's listening now, thinking about getting sober and you don't know how to do it,

I can't live a life with alcohol, but I also can't live a life without it. That's the jumping off point, isn't it? Right? What would you say to someone like that? It feels, and for me, and I think for most people, it feels impossible to do all these things and to go to all these events and parties and do alcohol free.

And it feels so scary, but on the other side of that fear is the most beautiful life. And don't wait to do it. It's so easy to think I've just got this wedding maybe I'll do it I'll start after that or I've got a holiday I'll wait till after the holiday don't wait just jump in the deep end it's the ultimate like self-love choice to put yourself first and just be like fuck it I don't care what anyone else thinks I'm owning this this is the best thing for me and just stop like, fuck it, I don't care what anyone else thinks. I'm owning this. This is the best thing for me. And just stop. And if it feels too scary to say, I'm never drinking again, don't say that to yourself.

Say I'm going to do this for six months. Or I don't think a month is enough to really feel all the benefits. But if that feels like safe, then just try it for a month. You're never going to regret not drinking for a month. But even if that feels- And then tag on another month and then tag on another month, can't do it, take it day by day.

Yeah, that's the thing. Even if it feels, I remember at the beginning of my sobriety, there were times where I was like, I remember someone saying to me, you're just gonna do it hour by hour. Just get to one o'clock without having to get him a drink. And then, you know, and it does add up.

And then before you know it, it's like, I'll be eight years touchwood this year. And that's like, you know, that's mad to me. That is fucking bonkers that I don't drink. And like you, it doesn't occur to me that that would be an option for me. Like, I'm just like, no thanks. Don't try and do it alone.

There are so many, like you said, different avenues people can take on a sober journey. Just don't do it on your own. It's too hard. Get support. And there's lots of free support groups, whether it's online or whether it's in person or whether seeing a sober coach is accessible to you. That's what I did. And having someone I could speak to who really understood addiction and understood the behavior and was actually someone that was very hard talking and very, well, like straight talking. That's what I needed. I needed someone to be like, listen,

this is gonna fuck up your entire life and you need to take this seriously. And I wanted the hard truth and I was like, okay, I'm just gonna, this is horrible. I'm just gonna do it. Also, would you say, I think another really good bit of advice is not to get too obsessed or to bog down with language. With labels advice is not to get too obsessed or to bog down

with language. With labels. Yeah, people get really obsessed with the kind of like alcoholic thing. Yeah, totally. I think the labels thing is a really big one because when I first stopped drinking, I had people say to me, you don't have a problem. You know, you just, you drank too much and sometimes, you know, it all went a bit wrong, but you didn't have a drinking problem

And because that was being said to me, I really believed that it was too shameful to say Okay, I was an alcoholic or I was an addict as I started writing the book and by the time I got to the end I was like kind of looks like I have a problem when you write it down And then I was like so fucking what if I had a drinking problem? It's actually so liberating just to say, I was a bad drunk. I did have a problem with alcohol. I will always have a problem with alcohol. I can't fix that in me. Would you describe yourself as an alcoholic or do you not find that a helpful term?

I don't find it a helpful term, but I do find it helpful to think of myself in recovery. Yeah, yeah. Because then I think you can be kinder to yourself and allow yourself more grace. Also, you're defining yourself by your wellness rather than your illness. Love that. Millie, thank you so much for everything. That was such a good chat. When we come to talking about giving up alcohol,

we focus so much on the thought of like getting rid of something, losing something. But actually what you're doing is making space for something even better. You know, it's not actually about giving something up, it's about getting something back. Well, sometimes in some cases, you know, in my case, I was not even getting something back, it's discovering something that was there that I never knew was there, if that makes any sense. Anyway, if you're looking for inspiration or practical advice, Millie's new book, Bad Drunk, How I Found My Freedom From Alcohol, and you can too, is a brilliant guide to starting that journey. And it is quite possibly the best title of a sobriety memoir I've ever heard and I wish I'd come up with it first.

If you've been inspired by Millie's story or know someone who might be, please share this episode with them and while you're here hit follow and leave us a review. It helps more of you lovely lot discover these important conversations. Take care, be kind to yourself and I'll catch you on Friday.