The Life Of Bryony - 35. The Youth Mental Health Crisis: What Every Parent Needs to Know

Episode Date: January 27, 2025

Welcome to The Life of Bryony, where we explore life’s messy, beautiful, and challenging moments. MY GUESTS THIS WEEK: CHRISTIE WATSON AND ROWAN EGBERONGBE This week, I’m joined by Christie Watson—former NHS nurse, bestselling author, and professor—and her daughter, Rowan Egberongbe. Together, they’ve co-written No Filters, a deeply personal and poignant exploration of Rowan’s mental health crisis during her teenage years. Their story is one of unconditional love, resilience, and finding connection in the darkest moments. In this episode: • How Christie and Rowan navigated the loneliness and chaos of parenting and mental illness. • The power of humour and “loud love” in rebuilding trust and connection. • Insights into the youth mental health crisis and how social media plays a complex role. A gentle warning: This episode contains discussions about self-harm, eating disorders, and suicide. We’ve included resources below for those who may be affected. LET’S STAY IN TOUCH 🗣️ Got something to share? Text or send a voice note on 07796657512—just start your message with LOB. 💬 Use the WhatsApp shortcut: https://wa.me/447796657512?text=LOB. 📧 Prefer email? Drop me a line at [e-mail] If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone who might find Christie and Rowan’s story helpful—it really makes a difference! Bryony xx SOME GREAT RESOURCES • Young Minds: The UK’s leading charity for children and young people’s mental health. Visit www.youngminds.org.uk or call their helpline at 0808 802 5544. • The Mix: Free, confidential support for people under 25. Visit www.themix.org.uk or call their crisis line at 0808 808 4994. • Mind (Mental Health Support): Help for anyone struggling with their mental health. Visit www.mind.org.uk or call 0300 123 3393. Presenter: Bryony Gordon Guests: Christie Watson and Rowan Egberongbe Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan Executive Producer: Mike Wooller A Daily Mail Production. Seriously Popular. Let me know if you’d like any changes or additional details! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Life of Briony, the podcast where we chat about all the messy, beautiful and challenging parts of life. Today I'm joined by Christy Watson. She's a former NHS nurse, bestselling author and professor. And she's here with her eldest daughter, Rowan. Together, they've written a deeply personal book called No Filters, which is all about navigating Rowan's mental health crisis when she was 16 years old.

Parenting you was like watching you drown, throwing you a life jacket, and then seeing you swim off away from it. A raw and honest story about modern parenting coming up right after this. Hello, Producer Jonathan. Hello, presenter Bryony. It's still January. Still January. Oh, I really thought that going away and January not really starting till the 6th because that was when everyone went back to work. I thought that might make January less January-like

but it turns out January just gonna January. It's like a squash, you don't even get double concentrate. It's a double concentrate mum. It's a smaller bottle but it's loads of the same flavour of January. Aww, how are you? I'm good. I had a mouse in my house. What? Yesterday I heard my house. What? Yesterday, I heard my housemate roar in an exceptionally manly way.

I really want to come round to your house, because I feel like I didn't know you had a housemate. I thought that you lived alone. And I have this kind of, I feel it's weird that you know so much about me. Too much. And you've been around to my house and you've recorded this intro in my house and you've sat on my sofa and you've touched my heated blanket. Absolutely. That's not a euphemism guys. And I think it's weird that I've not been to your house. One of these days we'll do a special from mine. So sorry there's a mouse in your house. There was a mouse in my house. Dark chocolate did the trick. What? Mice love dark chocolate

so if you set a trap. It's lucky I didn't come around to your house because I would be in that mouse trap right now. Well, this is the question I wanna ask you, because I was thinking about this this morning. If we were to set a briny-sized mouse trap, what should I put in there to catch you? Chorizo.

It will be either something to do with Taylor Swift or Arsenal. An Arsenal scarf. Or a season ticket. An Arsenal scarf. Oh my god, if you put a season ticket in with some chorizo, or even not even some chorizo, I would be in that mousetrap right now. How was your week? I've been thinking a lot about running this week, and I want to do some more episodes

on running because I know there's a lot of people that follow me or listen to me because they're getting into their running journey. Maybe they don't feel that they're like the conventional body shape for running. Who the fuck knows what that is, guys, by the way? And I don't know if anyone knows, last year I was going to do this crazy challenge to raise money for mental health mates, which is a not-for-profit organization that I set up. Please go check out, it's brilliant. If you're feeling low, it's peer support, walks near you, fantastic. It's on Instagram. Anyway, every year I like to do a crazy challenge to raise money for them. So one year I ran 10, 10 Ks in 10 days. And last year I tried to run the Brighton Marathon, then I was going

to run from Brighton to London, and then I was going to do the London Marathon. Two weeks before I fractured my shin. So that was like, no, you're not going to be doing that. And so then I've spent the rest of last year sort of getting myself back to finding fit. And I went to the physio on Monday to see if I could be cleared to do the same challenge. And she has cleared me, but I had this thing where I thought, what are you doing, Bryony? Why are you trying to do this challenge? Like, it's quite extreme. You could do just one of the marathons and that would be enough.

Yeah. You know, I've talked a lot in previous episodes already this year about what my energy going into this year is. And I think often, and I don't know if this, anyone listening relates to this, often I find myself without even realising making my life harder for myself than it needs to be. And I really want to try this year to make it easier. Sometimes I'm like, oh what?

You mean I can actually do what I want to do and I can be happy if I choose to? It's always been a bit like, no, it has to be hard. And so I have been thinking about whether or not I do actually do the challenge. I'm still training for it. So I'm still like running the miles and stuff. But I'm wondering if maybe I just do the London Marathon or I just do the Brighton Marathon in my pants. Obviously, it's just got to be an underwear because I got to carry on this

thing. I've got to keep running around in my pants. I love the phrase just a marathon. Just a marathon. Well, I mean like whatever, we'll be walking it. But I've got to carry on this thing. I've got to keep running around in my pants. I love the phrase just a marathon. Just a marathon. Well, I mean, like, whatever, we'll be walking it. But I've been thinking a lot about it and I've been thinking about how I really want to do is I want to do more running and moving, more moving with like people like who are listening to the podcast, who like people like me who thought exercise isn't for them, but suspect it might be really transformational for their mental health. Yeah, and I've just been I've just kind of been musing a bit on that and what you know, and I wonder maybe I could get some thoughts from the lovely listeners. So I'm thinking about that. I'm thinking about what

do I do in my life? Yeah, that is sort of almost Unnecessary and too much and that actually drains my energy. Yeah. Sounds like to me that you're almost kind of going against your people pleaser tendencies and you're thinking, what about actually, now what do I want to do rather than what should I do or what is someone else's one? Well, this is the other thing, Jonathan, that has also happened this week, is that I finished the first draft of my novel People Pleaser.

Hang on. That is the sound of applause. That is amazing. So many people want to write a book and just can't or never get around to it. You've done it. It's my ninth book. But it's my first like novel, adult novel. 86,000 words, I sent it to my editor and she's reading it right now. And there will obviously be edits and stuff like that. But I really feel like writing this book about this character who wakes up one morning and she can't people-please anymore, so it's a bit like, lie or liar.

But I feel like I've gone, like, I imagine this is what happens with actors, I've gone a bit method, and I've gone quite deeply into people-pleasing and the effect it has on people's mental health, obviously for this character. But you can't help but like feel it yourself. So I found myself like in that, have you heard of, there's, you know, we talk about the fight and flight

response, trauma response, but there's another response, which is fawn. And what's that? Fawn, which is when you start to fawn over people. But like that's definitely my trauma response. It's like like I would just be really nice to you and try to get you to like me. I think yours is flight. I would say flight as well. Yeah I suspect it's flight. Which is certainly part of our running theme.

No I'm kidding it's not. Anyway so so actually two quite big things this week. Love that and have you properly celebrated the fact that you finished the first draft? No. I think you need to do that if you get time, whatever that is, whether it's just something you weren't going to buy or something you weren't going to normally do. I went straight back into like all the work that I was kind of putting to one side. When this goes out on Monday, I will be in a lovely hotel in the Cotswolds with three of my girlfriends. So it sounds like you are doing something to celebrate this.

Yes. But I haven't done it yet. But I will go there and that will be lovely. It would be worth you mentally attaching that reward to the hard work that you've done as well though. Yeah, no, it just sort of is that. It's not, I mean, obviously my friends are there for different reasons, but yeah. That's great. I love that. On this week's show, we have Christy and Rowan. Yeah, I loved them.

How did you get on with them? It really opened my eyes to a lot of elements of social media I hadn't really thought about. Your eyes were definitely opened when Rowan, who's Kristy's daughter, started talking about phones and how protected they were. When I went home, I said to my daughter, apparently there are apps you can put on your phone to disguise Snapchat and she looked really panicky. And I thought, oh my god.

She already knows. So I had to go through her phone and there weren't any actually. I think she knows that she's not allowed Snapchat and she gets a bit panicky that I am accusing her. And we should say as well that Christy and her daughter wrote a book together, no filters, which is why they're on. No filters, yeah, which I think is required reading if you're a parent or you want to learn more about Gen Z and what's going on and the mental health crisis, which we hear

about so often, but no one's quite got any answers for yet. No, I was going to... here's my deep meaningful question that has to do with today's episode, I think. It's a biggie. Do you think your childhood self would be happy with the person you are now? Oh my God, she would be delighted. Really? Oh my God, absolutely.

Everything I do today, producer Jonathan. Yes, presenter Briony? Is for that little girl. Oh, I love that. So you like, you think of her? All the time. Yeah. All the time.

I presume you're doing things that she would never have dreamed of. Like. Absolutely. I met New Kids on the Block once. She would not believe that. And nine books. No, no, New Kids on the Block. Oh yeah. That was where I peaked. I was like 28 or something. Yeah. Yeah. I think she'd be really thrilled and I hope that the version of me now who still sometimes feels really anxious about stuff, really awkward, really wrong and other because we all still have it right, I hope that there's a version of me in the future that this version will be able to look towards and go oh my god look. If you're loving the conversation so far and and I know you are, good news! There are two

episodes every week. Hit follow, subscribe now so I can be part of your weekly routine. This book, guys, I think should be required reading for all mothers like me who have a child about to enter adolescence. Because what this book does, which hasn't been done before, I don't think, is it's a book, Rowan, about your mental health crisis. But really it's a book, I think, more generally about the mental health crisis that there is out there, which is this sort of disconnect between parents and their children's generation and parents not really understanding why so many young people are suffering because we're coming at it from our kind of generational experience. I was very mentally unwell when I was a teenager. Like you, I had a kind of proper breakdown.

What I now realize were delusions. But at the time, we're just seen as kind of, I was being difficult. There were one or two of us in my school year who had, quote unquote, problems. There was me and there was a girl who was hospitalized for anorexia. But that was quite unusual. What's happening now is that actually the mental illness in young people is really widespread. So there's a bit in the book where you say for a time keeping your friends alive via WhatsApp was like a full-time job.

Yeah, 100%. And you Rowan were compared to your mates quite well. Yeah, I think it was a messy time. We were all just in shambles pretty much. I was definitely one of the better ones. I didn't have to go to the hospital as much. I was very lucky in that way, which is surprising because to me it was the end of the world and yet I was still one of the better off ones. It's so weird, isn't it? Because I felt like we were the only ones. As a mum, I felt like nobody else can be going through this. This is absolutely horrendous and nobody's really

talking about it. And so that's part of the reason that we wanted to write the book together. And as soon as we did start writing the book and talking about the book, the amount of messages from people who say we're going through exactly the same thing and even conversations with our friends saying, this is our experience as well. It's back to what you were saying about our generation. It was quite rare or maybe different times, but now it seems to be, it is a massive, massive crisis. We're similar age and our forties and like in the book you write about how none of your friends were self-harming, and

I didn't know anyone who was self-harming. That for you, your friends, was quite a common thing? It was a very common thing. I feel like there was probably a time where I had more friends that were than weren't. Really? Yeah. It started becoming more common from the age of 12, I remember having friends that started getting into self-harm, which is very shocking. Yeah.

Shocking. Can you remember when you asked me about it or we were talking about it and I said to you, I don't think I had a single friend who was self-harming and, you know, there were eating disorders and there was depression and there was anxiety and, you know, schizophrenia and all sorts of mental health disorders. But we didn't have self-harm. I don't think any of my friends were doing it. And then I called up mates, didn't I, same age, to say, was there anyone in your school that you can remember doing self-harm? And Roe was really shocked because everyone said, no, I can't remember anyone self-harming. Right. When I read your account of, I mean, the great thing about this is this humor,

you know, and I think that makes reading about dark stuff so much more manageable and it's really important. And there's a line where you say in the book that yours is the generation that want to die but also have a 20-step skincare routine, which I kind of feel like sums up. There's this weird juxtaposition of this futility and bleakness, but also TikTok. Yeah, it's very funny. People just seem to take the piss out of everything. It's ridiculous.

I remember when I was really worried about you, really, really worried. I mean, there were lots of times I was really, really worried, but you had put fact 50 on in the morning and you'd run out of fact 50 and you said, oh, have you got any fact 50? I was like, why are you putting fact 50 on this winter? And you were like, well, obviously I don't want to get wrinkles later on. And I just thought, oh my God, I'm less worried. Yeah. Because it was that juxtaposition of future thinking and worrying about potential wrinkles later on,

but also that kind of fear of now. It's really complex. It's really complex. Can we talk a bit, Rowan, if you're and Kristy, about your experience? So when you were 16, you had a period of being really unwell. I think I had always felt unwell. I remember from a very young age, but then after the

post pandemic, that's when I started to become unfunctionally unwell. And I think that's when you started to pick up on it as well. Yeah, when you thought we were smoking one night. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the fuss because you'd passed your GCSEs with flying colours, you were doing really well. Did you think, I've won at parenting? I don't think I ever thought I've won at parenting.

Because you know what? You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. But I thought you were doing really well, considering the state of the world and everything else. And then it was about one o'clock in the morning and I smelled smoke and I was upstairs, I was like, what's going on? Is something on fire? And I went down to your room and you were not only smoking a fag in bed, but like propped up by all these pillows and just said to me like, what's the problem? Why are you so stressed? Stress is not good for you. And I was like, have you lost your fucking mind? Frankly, like I lost it. Totally lost my shit again. Not good parenting. Well, I

don't know. I think it's, I think it's understandable. Like, because how old are you 16? 16. Yeah. Like smoking is bad for you, Christy. It's bad in bed when there's a fire risk. I mean, that's where mine were. Yeah. But yeah, it just seemed very just bad behavior. And looking back, obviously, that was the start of something major going on. And then it was a few days later that the school phoned and said that you were a manic. That's the word that they used. And then we went to A&E, was it that day? Oh yeah, later that day. Yeah, and we found ourselves very quickly in the system that so many families are in. So can I row back a bit just before you find yourself in A&E? There's going to be a lot

of people listening to this podcast who relate to this kind of story or who worry about their own kids and how to kind of look out for them, you say that this is the book you wish you'd had at the time. And so what I feel about this podcast interview and this interview generally is that it's like about helping people who might be suspect they're in it, or that they're about to be in it, or who are in it. How can your experience help them? And so I wanted to just ask you, Rowan, like, often we start to feel unwell a long time

before we even know we are. The problem is when I was most unwell is when I felt like things were the best. Right, okay. Because of the way in which I was unwell, I felt like, oh yeah, no, I'm thriving, I'm living my best life, like never felt better. And honestly, I was just doing some not normal things, just acting strangely and indulging in like everything. So I think it's hard to know when things are actually wrong.

You were having a sort of a manic episode. Yeah. So, and when you say indulging in things, do you mean sort of just- Just consequences don't exist in my brain. It was just very impulsive buying, like impulsive anything, pretty much. Okay. And then not sleeping for days on end.

Yeah. That was when you were 16. Mm-hmm. And you were saying you felt unwell a long time before then. What we tried to write about a lot is that time between 14 and 16, which was the period of time when the pandemic hit when you were in your bedroom a lot of the time with your phone. I had like a lots of parents every good intention of making the most of that time and had something

called Enrichment Hour which I developed after school because I thought you're not going to school you've got extra time so we'll do Enrichment Hour. What did I try and teach you? Taxes, first aid, poetry. Poetry is a very good thing to learn. CPR. CPR. It was varied. It was varied.

So yeah, I did that for about two weeks before you both said, we cannot carry on mum. Like, let us just be in our rooms like every other teenager at this time. And so I look back and think, you know, that pandemic time where all of us, myself included, were just scrolling on a phone for a period of almost two years and not really socializing in the way that you were normally, that must have, well, I felt unwell at that time. I'm sure you felt unwell at that time. I'm sure you felt unwell at that time. I'm sure everybody felt unwell. Well, it was trying to connect, wasn't it? Yeah.

At a time when disconnection was, when we were so disconnected. But yeah, like sitting, looking at our screens for hours and hours a day was probably not that good for our mental health. Teenagers specifically, can I ask you Rowan, what were you doing during lockdown in your bedroom all day? I was in a group chat and from the moment I woke up to the moment I fell asleep, I'd be on that group chat messaging my friends the whole entire time. Right. Yeah. And what were you talking about? Just anything and everything? Anything and everything. I mean, if talking about? Just anything and everything?

Anything and everything. I mean, if you went to the toilet and looked at your phone again, you'd have 500 messages there already, immediately. Social media, Rowan, I wanted to ask you what your relationship with social media is like now and what you, you know, there's this eternal conundrum, isn't there, of like, what do we do about young people and social media? And the people that are often asking those questions are people like me who are older and also have a problem with social media. You know, it's kind of, it's a difficult thing.

And I, you know, my daughter just got her first phone. She just started secondary school. I know that you were quite late in terms of getting a smartphone, weren't you? You were 14 maybe? I was the latest of all my friends to get a smartphone and then even later with Instagram and Snapchat we used to do phone checks. So I'd just give mum my phone at any given time and she can just go through it. But that was the condition because I thought that was how to keep you safe. But do you think that wasn't how to keep her safe?

Well no. There's no physical way you can limit a smartphone. If you try and parent lock a smartphone there's always a way out of it. So if you give your child a smartphone you just have to go with the knowledge that they can access everything. Really? 100%. No but hang on a second yeah well even if you even if you do the child yeah like the iPhone controls on them yeah I mean how would you access snapchat? A you can go on the app store and you can get apps where it's like an app disguiser so they can download snapchat on the phone and make it look

like the clock app so you won't even know that it's there it will just look like the phone app or something else important that the phone needs. I feel sick. I feel sick about it. Let's not give too many tips in case there are young people watching. I had no idea, but as you pointed out, I can't even work the TV remote control. So what I thought I was going to see and being able to do on this smartphone and how I was going to monitor it, I don't know.

I hate myself. It's so tricky because also you also said that you would have been ostracized and you were ostracized. I was for a very long time. I was the last one and I was so mad at you for not letting me get Instagram or anything like that. Well, that's the danger. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. You are. You are. But interestingly, I feel I feel a bit more nuanced about social media because it also helped our communication when our communication was really non-existent in other ways. I would send Ro a Snapchat filter of my face as a chicken nugget or a piece of broccoli or whatever and you would respond. But you said something about your

own kids and your peers. We would never in a million years, like everyone I know would not give their child access to a smartphone or an iPad or anything like that, 100%. You wouldn't? I wouldn't and I don't think any of my friends would, not any of them. It's interesting isn't it? Do you think that our generation are like, we're getting it very wrong, but maybe so that yours can get it right? Well, you could apply that to any generation, I guess. You learn from the past ones mistakes, but also social media wasn't around when you guys didn't grow up with it.

No, we just thought we had was carrier pigeons. And a 5,000 mile walk to school. Telegrams. Telegrams and walk to school. I mean, like, but I look back and I think, thank God. Yeah, definitely. What we wanted to write about ultimately was coming through something awful and the other side of it and being hopeful and recovery and all that kind of thing. But also the fact that your generation are facing things that gen-x women like us can't understand. And it's that lack of understanding that causes such a big disconnect between mother and daughter,

father and son. And it's because the world is so fucked up. And as you said, you know, the world is on fire and you want me to go to my tap dancing lesson. Frankly, I'm just going to not go to school. What's the point? You have this breakdown, this manic episode. You go to A&E and then you then find yourself in the CAMHS system like 400,000 other children, you know, at the same time. And they spend a lot of time trying to sort of diagnose your neurodiversity.

And you say neurodiversity is not the issue here. The issue here is I am mentally ill. And that I read that and I thought that was a really important point to make because there is a lot of talk now about neurodiversity, about ADHD, about autism, and that is all for the greater good. Don't get me wrong. But there is a difference between neurodiversity and mental illness. And I think that was a really important thing that, again, I think there's a disconnect between generations where a lot of our generation think, oh, they're just being, you know, they're just being silly and they're just like having labels.

And actually, you were really suffering from something really devastating. Yeah, I think it was a really hard time. And especially I think I was very annoyed at CAMS at first purely because of I just it felt like it was very much they were hoping it was like oh, it's just neurodivergence It's just neurodivergence and it didn't feel like that I feel like mental illness is a soup of all sorts of things and they were diving for clues that's for sure and one of the clues was potential ADHD and or stroke autism and Attachment stuff and all the rest of it.

So I guess I as a mum also started diving for clues and obviously parenting is holding a mirror up to yourself and going, okay, probably I have gifted you some neuro spiciness and I didn't realise I had some too and oh my gosh this whole generation of women. So it's really, really complex but I think you're right to separate that out because actually, when we got the leaflets sent home from CAMHS from A&E, do you remember it had advice on it, which I'm sure is very good advice, but at that moment of crisis, it felt so belittling to you. Is that the right word? It was patronizing. They gave me a crisis plan. So basically whenever you're in crisis,

you go through these steps. And it was nice things like go for a walk, have a bath. But if I'm in crisis, don't think a bath or a cup of tea is going to interest me. I think you were very angry at the world. Yeah. And so you're angry at me, you're angry at Kamz, you're angry at school, we were angry at everybody, which is I think entirely appropriate actually looking back. But when we got the appointment for CAMHS very quickly, I was worried about that because I thought, well it must be really, really unwell to get an appointment at CAMHS because

they're so underfunded, understaffed, under-resourced as we know that they're really struggling to make appointments. People are waiting on the waiting list for months and months and months, if not years, some people. And the fact that we got an appointment so quickly worried me because I thought, gosh, they must be really, really concerned. And I found them helpful. So I think as much as it was a difficult process, you know, I felt like they were helpful for us. And perhaps your experience was different, but there was nothing else at that time, was there, in terms of help? And I think therapy

at CAMHS was a really good thing, actually. What do you think you needed at the time? Well, at the time I was thinking, oh, somebody should do something, da-da-da-da-da, but I look back and I'm just, I don't really know what you could have done. I think I just needed a big hug, good cry and just some understanding. But also I know that probably wouldn't have solved it. So it's just sometimes we're not problems to be solved. You know, and I think you just nailed it there where you say that like what you needed was a big hug. And actually, that's obviously what you you did, you held her

through it. And it is I think a lot of we live in a culture that wants, you did, you held her through it. And it is, I think, a lot of, we live in a culture that wants, you know, naturally we want to offer up solutions. You know, we want to offer up, we want to be able to help people, but sometimes the truth is, is that there is nothing you can do. You know, this is why these leaflets that say things like have a bath, go for a walk, are incredibly frustrating because the idea that a bath, go for a walk, are incredibly frustrating because

the idea that a bath is going to help when you're in a psychotic episode or you're having delusions is just fucking laughable, do you know what I mean? And I get that. And listening to you guys talk, I feel quite emotional because it is actually the answer. The answer to it is patience, but it's also love. That's what it is. It's patience and love, unconditional love. You know, the truth is when I was reading your book, I thought to myself, in all ways, being a teenager is so, so hard. It is almost, I think, like a state of mental ill health in itself, if that makes sense. You're experiencing so many hurly

burly things for the first time. You have this cocktail of incredibly powerful hormones at you, you know, and it's a kind of wonder anyone gets through it without having some sort of spiral actually. And I think when you throw in this sort of toxic soup of, as you say, like pandemic, social media, climate crisis, AI, you know, all of these things, it's like, well, it's actually really appropriate that you might have a psychotic break with reality or, you know, often I think mental ill health is we think that it's a sign of madness, but in fact it's a sign of sanity. And actually the real madness is when people kind of cruise along and are like, nothing wrong here. It's like, have you looked

outside? I think we're changing, aren't we, as a society, thanks to a lot of conversations with Gen Z folk, because we are saying, actually, I'm really not fine at all. And nor are you, mum, and nor are you, grandma. And what haven't we been talking about? But the love thing's really interesting. You've said about that before, that being really sometimes the only thing that helped. 100%. I think you've always managed to love me loudly, which was a good thing, even when I had you blocked and I didn't want to hear from you.

You blocked her? Yes. While living in the same house? Yes. Upstairs. Blocked door, blocked phone. Was this when you were 16 or when you were unwell or was it the lead up to it? This was when I was unwell.

Right. Just didn't talk to her at all. Not a single word. It was commitment, I'd say. It was dedication, that's for sure. But this book was originally called Conversations in Our Living Room. We had to change that. We had to change the title because we weren't supposed to be in the living room.

How long did you not speak to her for? Six months. Yeah, probably six months. Wow, that must have been impossible. It was impossible because also, you know, you weren't going to school really, so I was dealing with the school and CAMS and not knowing what was going on. I felt like parenting you,

and I write about it in no filters, parenting you was like watching you drown, throwing you a life jacket and then seeing you swim off away from it. That's how that honesty felt at that time. I had no idea what to do. I didn't have anything in my toolbox at all except loud love. And so I just unconditionally carried on loving you because I thought you clearly can't accept that at the moment, but I'm really hoping that at some point it will break through and it did. And I feel like the important thing was you knew the life jacket was there when

you were ready to swim back to it. So you went to A&E and then you didn't talk for six months? It was a couple weeks of arguing and then it was the no talking. I mean when I say there was literally zero communication, I would ask you a million questions and then I would try softly, softly, nice cop, bad cop, everything. But it was either stony cold silence or like one word answers or get out of my room type stuff. And so that's when I thought if social media is a language that you speak, I'm going to have to learn this language. And so that's when I thought, if social media is a language that you speak, I'm going to have to learn this language. And I went on to Snapchat and basically degraded

myself as much as possible. Danielle Pletka Turning yourself into an apple. Kate Mabry Or anything. Einstein, and I would send you these little clips. And that's when I think our humor has always been something that's managed to pull us both back from dark places. and we've always found things funny. Even the very worst times we found things funny. And I can even remember Cam's, you were assessed by another psychiatrist and he'd come in to chat to both of us and by that stage we hadn't slept for months. I'd been listening to every noise where we'd been pacing up and down every night. We'd been awake and we started arguing in this CAMHS assessment.

And I think I said something along the lines of, which I'm not proud of, but I did. I said, I understand that you're mentally unwell and this is a terrible time. And then I shouted, but you're also being a dick really loudly. And the psychiatrist kind of backed off and walked out and kind of sped out of the room. And Rose started cracking up laughing. And then I started laughing. She shouted at me, you're an even bigger dick. And I mean, we just had this thing. We also needed to. We needed to.

And we just fell about laughing. And I remember thinking, actually, I think we're gonna be all right. Because there's something there that, you know, it was humor that always broke through, I think, the sadness and we're very lucky to have that. But this is the other thing, and I think this is a really okay thing to say, is that being mentally unwell and being a dickhead

are not mutually exclusive. Both things can be true at the same time. And I think it is important you say that because the people that will be listening to this are people who are living with a mentally unwell teenager who will be like, I know you're unwell but you are also being entirely unreasonable. And those are feelings that are entirely appropriate as well. Can I ask you Rowan, what was going on in your head and going on in your mind during that six months where you took to your bed like you say I think a wealthy Victorian lady

and just refused to talk to your mum? What was, because I'm fascinated like because this is this is important as well, you know Well, I don't remember much from the time but I do know I didn't know was nothing going through my head I would kind of just sit and stare at a wall for that six months So there wasn't really much going on up there. Really? Yeah Terrifying and I would be like coming in which like hot chocolate or should we go for a walk? Or let me open the curtains and it was, I just didn't know what to do. I just didn't know what to do. So I just thought to myself, do you know what? I'm just going to have to love you really, really, really hard and really hope that you find a way back. And because your struggle, whatever it was going on

existentially, mental illness wise, everything wise, was internal, your recovery was internal as well. It was really about you wanting to get yourself better and at that point wanting to stop looking at the wall or whatever happened. It did happen eventually with time, but there wasn't one specific thing that made you feel okay. I think it was just lots of little things over time and then over time I became more willing to accept bigger things and then started doing more. They didn't give you a diagnosis? No. They had lots of working diagnosis, which were all pretty scary, I have to say.

Which were things like? Long lists of every mental illness you can ever imagine. I think they were grasping at straws. Schizo-affective disorder? Everything, because it felt like even a psych episode, they weren't willing to say, this is a psychotic episode or this is manic episode. They would just say, Rowan seems very mentally unwell at the moment. I think that because the developing brain before you're 18, and I think it might even

be as late as 21 now, cams are very reluctant to label a child while they're going through all these enormous teenage changes anyway, which I guess we both had different feelings about because I was relieved that you didn't have diagnosis and I think you were looking for a diagnosis. So we had different ideas about what that might mean. You're writing about the fact that maybe you – I think you wrote something like maybe you were mentally unwell, maybe you were angry, maybe you were sensitive, maybe you were extremely unwell, maybe you were angry, maybe you were sensitive, maybe you're extremely unwell, or maybe it's just the world at this time being a young girl growing up,

which I think is entirely valid to have a mental break. And also I think you'll you'll know about this as well, I was perimenopausal woman with all my own hormones and my undiagnosed neuro-spiciness going through my own mental illness stuff. And so it was like Clash of the Titans. I mean it very often happens at the same time, doesn't it? I mean that in itself is fascinating. I wanted to ask you a bit more about the social media stuff. You write about you and your friends. I mean one thing that really shocked me was that you had friends with feeding tubes. You know, I thought, gosh, that was such a stark, sad, sobering image, you know. You know, you talk about social media and going into like ED recovery forums. I think

also we make the mistake as women in our 40s of looking at body confidence through the lens of what we've experienced, you know, growing up in magazines that told us we had to be thinner or smaller. But I think that the thing about it is that, you know, eating disorder culture, such a weird thing to say, has just shifted. And so you make, you make, there's a bit in the book where you write about, you're obviously on Zoe, the thing where you get your blood sugar measured and you eat blue cookies and then they analyze your shit. And you're like, that's fucking nuts. Yeah. You know, I imagine you look at things like a Zempik and go, what the fuck? You know, but like, but there are different, that's not to say there

aren't things that affect you that perhaps we don't understand. And I would love to hear more about that. Because I think the most important thing is like, opening up these conversations and knowing what is it that affects you as a 19 year old? What is it that my daughter will be grappling with in the next few years? You know, because I want to understand that because I want to understand that because I know it'll be the same feelings I went through, but it'll be about different things. I think social media now has this big emphasis on fitness and health and sometimes it's done

in a way where it's extremely disordered and you can almost see this person is clearly struggling and that this is not a healthy lifestyle because it's almost not too healthy but you know when it's taken to the extreme and it's just like a rebrand of a new eating disorder it's not really any different and I think a lot of people fall for the like an aesthetic type of lifestyle like there's this type of lifestyle that I feel like a lot of girls my age would like and a lot of people that portray those lifestyles are in these communities of very, very restrictive or very, very not healthy eating patterns. By which do you mean people that are in recovery from eating disorders? So they're not necessarily eating in a disordered way, but everything else around them is quite disordered. There's definitely sometimes you'll see a recovery account that quickly turns into a

fitness health account and then quickly goes back into a recovery account. But the fact is that eating disorders, particularly for young girls, are massively on the rise. And so there is something different and new happening. I mean, I remember when I first started out in journalism 8,000 years ago, and I remember writing about pro-ana forums, which at the time were pro-ana, pro-anorexia basically. And it was like, what the hell is this? I mean, that is a a thing isn't it? Like those are, you know, you don't have to look that hard to find content. No, the other day I saw on my phone you get thin-spo and fat-spo basically where fat-spo

is literally they take photos of normal sized, I mean my size, average, average, skinny people, like not necessarily big by any means, and they put it on account and it's called Fat Spoh, it's like, oh, you don't wanna look at it like this. So watch this account when you're feeling hungry, and then you don't, cause then it's puts you off. And it's normal bodies, not in any way bigger. And did that just flash up on your phone?

Just on my For You page. So is this the problem in itself? Is that we are trying to, and this is something that parents experience, and you will probably experience as a parent as well, is that we are trying to stop people from experiencing life as it happens to them. And unfortunately, a certain proportion of people, men, women, whatever in between, will experience disordered eating. And the mistake maybe that we make as parents is trying to protect our children from this world. And actually, maybe the answer is saying, I can't protect you from this,

but what I can do is sit with you and love you while this shit is happening. I think that's perfect. That's a philosophical breakthrough. Wow, I think that's all you can do actually. I think role modeling is really important as well, as we know. You know, if you're trying to get it right yourself, and you've always said to me, you know,

the fact kids notice if their mom loves themselves a bit, it's really good and it rubs off and it's so hard for our generation to love ourselves and be like, oh, I'm going to really look after myself. But actually, I think that really helped you. I feel like this is like, I feel like you're like a spy from the other side. We've recruited to come and talk to elderly folks like me and Kristy and our listeners. Obviously, we like that to be like this, then there was this moment where I woke up one morning and everything was better. We like neat beginnings, middles and ends because these comfort us, right? But of course, life is messier than that. Can you talk through

the sort of process of getting better and how gradual that was because I think that in itself gives hope to people listening that perhaps a parent might not be able to ostensibly, you talk about the recovery being the illness being internal, but the recovery also being internal. And I think there are a lot of people that might think nothing is changing. My child is still in bed staring at the wall smoking. What the fuck? Talk about that slow progress to quote unquote wellness. I think it, well, it definitely wasn't linear, but it started with just one day I got up before 1 p.m. And that's just how it started, I'd say.

Went downstairs, made a bagel, went back upstairs, and stared at the wall some more. But that was just that little thing. And then the next day, probably didn't get out of bed. And then a couple days later, I got out of bed again. It was kind of just more and more each time, but it's not like a one day I get out of bed, next day I go for a run, it's not linear in any way.

But I remember there was a moment where I, it's not linear in any way. But I remember there was a moment where I felt like I was back in the place, like a couple months afterwards and I'm... The problem is when you're in that state, you feel like it's never going to end. You kind of don't realize, oh, it's going to pass. It feels like you've always been like this and you will always be like this and there's no options ever. And then it passed again and then I kind of was like, oh, okay, maybe I can do this. Just hold on until it passes each time. And yeah, I think that's really good advice.

And let's talk about now. Now, you've written your first book at the age of 19. So already bossing it, but I don't want to put pressure on you. You're at uni? Yes, university. I'm studying Classics, which I like very, very, very much. What do you like about Classics? Just the fact that it's mainly plays and epic poems, for one. See, and that poetry in Enrichment Hour, I think that was a precursor to all this. I don't think your enrichment album of poetry

is what started my degree. If anything, it probably pushed me in the opposite direction. Yeah, maybe. If that wasn't too far. How is your relationship now? I would say we're better than we ever have been. And we love being together. We chat all the time. Sometimes we have massive disagreements and repair. And then, yeah, I'd say we're super close. What would you say? So close. It's lovely, actually. I feel like perhaps we wouldn't be this close if we hadn't gone through such a massive break. So it's not that I'm grateful for it because it was horrendous. But we definitely have a relationship now where we have no filters. We talk about absolutely

everything. There are a lot of people that think, oh my god, my child is mentally ill. This is them for the rest of their lives. They're fucked. And what I would say is that no, if you get treatment and you get help, your life does not have to be defined by your mental illness. You know, I think sometimes the hardest way out is through, you know, and facing these difficulties. And I think that's what you show you too so beautifully that like life can be unfathomably hard and you went through six months of your daughter not talking to you. Like to me that is like I feel stomach sick thinking of that, you know,

but here you are now, stronger for it. And I think that is a really beautiful thought to end on. So I just want to thank you Rowan and Christy for coming and sharing your experience and your story, being so generous to do it. And I'm so happy that you seem happy now. Thank you very much. A huge thank you to Kristy and Rowan for sharing their story today. Their journey reminds me that parenting and adolescence aren't about perfection, they're about connection. No filters is a testament to the power of rebuilding relationships even when it feels absolutely impossible.

If Kristi and Rowan's story inspired you, please share this episode with someone who needs to hear it, one of your mum friends. Share it with all of them. And have you hit follow or subscribe yet? Please do that. Take care, be kind to yourself, and I'll catch you on Friday.