The Life Of Bryony - 37. Could Opening Your Relationship Make It Stronger? Ruby Rare on Non-Monogamy & Modern Love

Episode Date: February 3, 2025

Welcome to The Life of Bryony, where we explore life’s messy, beautiful, and challenging moments. MY GUEST THIS WEEK: RUBY RARE This week, I’m joined by Ruby Rare—sex educator, speaker, and author of The Non-Monogamy Playbook. Ruby is on a mission to help people explore and embrace their sexuality without shame, offering a refreshingly open and non-judgmental perspective on relationships, intimacy, and pleasure. LET’S STAY IN TOUCH 🗣️ Got something to share? Text or send a voice note on 07796657512—just start your message with LOB. 💬 Use the WhatsApp shortcut: https://wa.me/447796657512?text=LOB. 📧 Prefer email? Drop me a line at [e-mail] If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone who might find Ruby’s insights helpful—it really makes a difference! Bryony xx SOME GREAT RESOURCES Brook: A leading charity supporting young people’s sexual health and education. Visit www.brook.org.uk. CREDITS Presenter: Bryony Gordon Guest: Ruby Rare Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan Executive Producer: Mike Wooller A Daily Mail Production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Life of Briony, the podcast where we dive into life's messiest, most fascinating and eyebrow-raising topics. Today, I'm joined by sex educator, author, and all-round brilliant human, Ruby Rare. Now, Ruby's just released a book called The Non-Monogamy Playbook, a guide to exploring open relationships with confidence. And then I see lots of people switch into a kind of sex-positive world. Oh, I should be squirting and having multiple orgasms and going to sex parties and being polyamorous. And it's like, no, no, no, no. Everything you wanted to know about sex,

but were too afraid to ask right after this. ["Sexy Girl"] Okay, come on then, let's do it. Let's get into it. Auntie Brynie is here. So presenter Brynie is here for producer Jonathan. Hello, it's do it. Let's get into it. Auntie Briny is here. Presenter Briny is here for producer Jonathan. Hello, it's producer Jonathan. I have an issue in my life. People will not be able to tell by my voice, but I am a 40 year old man. Right. I would say older man

and older gent. I don't think that 40 is that old. Okay. But that's because I'm 44. Wait for the next part. I have a crush on someone. Okay. Oh, that's so nice. Is it? At 40? Oh my god. One of the ways I knew I was going through an early menopause wasn't just the mental breakdown I had. It was the fact I started to develop massive teenage crushes on like pop stars. Love that. Like who? Like I had this massive crush on Sam Fender and then I had a massive crush on Timothee Chalamet. But now I just am like, no, these are not for me.

But I knew that was like, oh, my hormones are obviously off to the races here. Is this a fantasizing how you might meet? Yeah, I go into like daydreams, but it's not really about falling in love. Like I don't, I think my crushes now, I accept that this is like firm fantasy mode. Okay, are they shagging you in a lift?

Something like that, yeah. Love that. Without getting into it. Anyway, sorry. So who's your crush on? Yeah, I have a crush on a 31-year-old guy in my gym who is nine years younger than me. Well, what's wrong with that? I think it's too much of an age gap.

I don't think that's much of an age gap. Do you know what I've done? This is psychotic. Are you ready for this? Go on. Started an LGBT group in the gym so I can get his phone number like a WhatsApp group. Wow.

Yeah. And has that worked? Yeah. And have you messaged him? Not yet. Is there any chance that he might listen to the life of Briny? Do you know what? This is the thing. I'm like, I'm a very straightforward person, Briny.

What's his name? I'm like a book. I won't go that far because of GDPR issues. But I'm going to get to know him a bit more or whatever. But if he asked, I would say like I have a crush on you or I will let him know at some point. I just think it's like you fancy someone. Yeah, it's just a weird feeling. Is it? Yeah, it is. It's a bit strange. It's like I feel like this is what teenagers should

have. I think definitely if you are like me, a 44 year old woman Who's been married for nearly 15 years and you know like crushes are quite unusual But I think you're a single 40 year old in your prime. I think you should be Constantly in a state of crush. It's a nice reminder that I'm not dead in sight. I'll say that Well anyway, sorry that led me to ask you or to want to ask you I'll say that. Well, anyway, sorry. That led me to ask you, or to want to ask you, do you have any weird celebrity crushes? So many.

All of my crushes ever in my life have been slightly weird. And they tell you a lot about my sort of daddy issues, I think. Who have you got? So my first ever crush when I was like eight or nine was on Bruce Willis in Moonlighting. Like it was very specifically. He's a handsome man. He's a handsome man, but I was nine and he was bald. Do you know?

And then, and then I just, and this one still, like just even thinking about it makes me feel a little bit Tom Selleck, three men and a Baby. Mustache God. I'm hoping listeners will go, oh my god, Three Men and a Baby, what a movie. What is way ahead of its time?

And it's sort of like, it really shows up toxic masculinity. I haven't watched that in years. Because they are left with this baby, and they're like, oh, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? And they have to really work through all of that. I mean, looking back, they're not actually that old in the movie. They're in their late 20s, early 30s.

When's the last time you watched that? Quite recently. I watched it in the summer with my daughter and friend and their kids. And they were like, we don't want to watch this. And they loved it. And then now, my weird crush. Yeah. Do you have any that you were kind of embarrassed about?

Because I'll share mine after you share yours. No, you share yours first. OK. And like, do you know what? I saw them recently and I still have feelings for them. It is Martin Lewis, the money saving expert. I, first of all, I think he is a handsome man. But when he actually starts

talking and gets really passionate about where you can save on your car insurance and stuff like that, I'm just like, this is quite hard. Well, actually, I would love to get Martin Lewis on this podcast. I did actually interview him about a year ago, and he's so thoughtful and he really cares. I think it's the passion. He cares about mental health as well, and he sets up the, I think, the Money and Mental Health Alliance. Anyway, there's a massive link between poverty and mental health and mismanagement of money and mental health.

Absolutely. But there's nothing sexier, though, than a man who sees a problem and tries to fix it. But I do think we now have to get him on the podcast just so I can see your face. I haven't told you my weird crush. And I don't know if it is that weird. This guy, he just does something to me.

And that's Jeff Goldblum. Oh, again, I can see it. So a couple of years ago, I was going to meet someone in a, for a meeting, a very swish London hotel. Yep, classic Brian E. Gordon. This is the lifestyle, guys. I was going to meet someone from the London Marathon events. There's like a big grand piano in the lobby.

And someone was playing piano on the grand piano. And I looked at the person and I was like, that's Jeff Goldblum. Love that. Surely it's not Jeff Goldblum. And he saw me clock him and he looked at me and he nodded. And I was like... Like nodded like, it's me. Yeah, basically. Love that. I was like, oh my god, it's Jeff Goldblum with my friend Jada,

who I was going to meet someone with. So I went and I said, can we have a picture with you? And I have a picture of myself basically sitting on Jeff Goldblum's lap on a piano stool. Do you know what strikes me as very Jeff Goldblum? Did he keep playing the piano as you took the photo? Yeah. So Jeff. So Jeff. Classic Jeff. And then he just carried on and then off we went and I was like, that's... Do you know what strikes me as very Jeff Goldblum? Did he keep playing the piano as you took the photo? Yeah. So Jeff.

So Jeff. Classic Jeff. And then he just carried on, and then off we went. And I was like, that's my life was basically made. Can you imagine us going on a joint holiday? You, me, Jeff Goldblum, and Martin Lewis, money saving experts. And Martin would have gotten us a great deal.

And Jeff, obviously, he was just running the chat. Just so cool. And Jeff gets, I think's just running the chat. Just so cool. And like, Jeff gets, I think, sexier, the older. Like, when I look at him in, like, The Fly, I don't find him that sexy, which is obvious, because he turns into a fly. But like, when you see him as a young actor, I'm like, not really, like, no.

But the older he gets, I'm like, ooh, this man, like, I can't follow him on Instagram because it makes me go a bit funny. Same with me and Martin Lewis. Same, same. On today's show, we have, we don't use this phrase anymore and I'm upset about it. We have sexpert Ruby Rare. She'd probably hate me calling her a sexpert.

Yeah. When did we stop calling people sexperts? 1999? I think it was probably like the mid-noughties. I should call her sex educator and author. How was your chat with Ruby? It was eye-opening. It was eye-opening and it really got me thinking a lot about

how different the generations are in terms of their kind of views on sex but also just on yeah, it really it made me think, god I wish I was born ten years younger so I could be orgy-ing.

Mmm. On that, actually. I didn't know that you could like orgy as a verb. Also, what constitutes group sex? Is it threesome group sex? Absolutely. I think if two people are having sex and a third person is there watching, has to, can't be via Zoom, has to to be in person that's group sex. I like I can't in my mind understand a situation whereby someone would be watching me having sex. Just to remind you as well at the end of this interview, which I loved listening to again this morning, at the end of this interview you suggest that our first live podcast should be an orgy, which I think is a genius idea.

I don't even remember. I really enjoyed my chat with Ruby. podcast should be an orgy, which I think is a genius idea. Yeah. Do you know what? I don't even remember. I really enjoyed my chat with Ruby. I had like a girls weekend this weekend. I was trying to explain to them the conversation I'd had with Ruby as women who are the same age as me, similar sort of backgrounds. And we couldn't get our heads around it. Again, like we were okay with ourselves going off and being non-monogamous, but we couldn't get our heads around our partners being non-monogamous. That was where we like

drew the line and we're like, that's just sort of cheating. I just think it's a fascinating conversation and I think my aversion to it is because of the very heteronormative structures that I've grown up with. That's all it is. Like if it was a normal thing, I'd be like, fine. And I think also, you know, this idea that you live the rest of your life with one person is, is not necessarily a very helpful one. Do you know what changed my mind on them as well? Because realistically, if I do, if my gym crush turns into a gym relationship and he wants to have an open relationship. Is this like a thing now? Is this like, is this a thing just in the gay community?

Or is it a thing in like... It's very popular. If I was to get a divorce tomorrow, not saying I'm going to, would I then have to go out and contend with having relationships with people who are like, we need to be in an open relationship? What happened to Ruby with another guy? Yeah, that's, I'm going to say that's the only thing that puts me off getting a divorce. Yeah.

Things have gotten too modern in the dating world. I'm like, Harry, I'd say to my husband, darling, we'll just get a takeaway and watch slow horses. Love that. I mean, I'm in. And if you're looking for authority. There's so many things I want to do and see, like redoing the basement without having to do it all myself, or doing absolutely nothing with a spectacular waterfall view, of course. So I'm starting here, investing with RBC. When it comes to reaching your goals, personalized advice and performance matter. And now you can get $300 when you invest with RBC.

Offer ends March 3rd, 2025. Terms and conditions apply. Invest with RBC today. If you're enjoying today's show, why not make this a regular thing? Hit follow and let's keep this relationship going, monogamous or otherwise. Ruby Rare, I'm quite excited about this

because I think this is the first Life of Briny podcast where we have spoken about sex. Really? Yeah. That surprises me. This is like my first X rated podcast. I'm here to hold your hand through it. So Ruby has written the non-monogamy

playbook. It's a mouthful, but yes. I just got the books today, which is why I'm like, it's here. I wrote a book and it's actually a real book. My copy I left out this morning on the kitchen table and my husband was like, is there anything you want to tell me, Bryony? And I was like, well, what are your thoughts? I'm like a 44 year old woman, middle class, middle England, you know, like I'm reasonably woke I think, but I'm not of the age, you know, I'm a zen-neal. So like at the very end of millennials, I was born in 1980 and my husband was also born in 1980.

And I mean, listen, let's's face it non-monogamy is a thing for every generation like I'm not going to pretend that like you know but I really look at your generation, younger generations and there is a big part of me that is really happy that people can explore their sexuality in really open and honest ways because when I was young the only way I could explore my sexuality was when I was high and drunk basically. Yeah and to be honest there's still a lot of that in my generation and the generations below. How old are you? I'm 31. Okay. So I'm kind of the other side of the millennial. Yeah. So your husband was surprised, but what was the reaction when you were like,

what do you think about this? He said, what do you mean? Like having an affair. And then he just looked really embarrassed. And he said, I'm just not going to talk about this with you. And then he went to the loo. And that was that. Yeah. It got me thinking about the way that my generation views sex, specifically women as well, because I think that there is a lot of shame around sex. I really wanted to kind of unpack that a bit and talk about how it's different. Like I'm really interested in having conversations

across the generations. Me too. You know? Yeah. But kind of explain it, because I know there'll be a lot of people that listen to the life of Brian, who are like me, they're like middle-aged mums basically. I think that a lot of women have so much internal shame about sex, about enjoying it, about their fantasies, about whatever.

And that, when you have that sort of like internal shame, it sort of colors your whole view of yourself, I think. Just generally like outside of the bedroom. Do you remember when you realized that you were allowed to have fun when you had sex? I mean, it was really late on. I definitely, for me, I got my pleasure when having sex by seeing the pleasure I had given the man. Yeah. It's like performing a role that we've been taught is the way that we perform during sex and that we get a kind of good feedback loop and so then that says something about

our self-worth and our place in kind of society and all that stuff. Yeah and I don't say that with any kind of like pride or anything like that, it's just how it was. I suppose I started having very regular sex in the noughties. And the culture was just like, women were shamed for being a tiny bit overweight. Female celebrities, if they were drunk and fell out of a club, it was like, they were a complete mess.

And there was this whole kind of narrative. So, I mean, I'm speaking for myself and there may be people that listen and are like, well, no, but also things like wanking, masturbation, like huge shame about. I mean, and I do it all the time, especially since I started on testosterone. Yeah, a lot of my perimenopausal mates are like, why am I like suddenly horny in this kind of different way? It's like, I don't know.

Hormones are wild and there's still so much unknown and unresearched. Even though we come from different ends of the millennial generation. Same for me. I was a teenager in the noughties. Wanking was this shameful forbidden thing. I wasn't raised in a religious environment but I still picked up a lot of that undertone of British religious fear and shame. It's nuts. When you really go back and

unpack the ways that you were introduced to sex and relationships and I think a lot about kind of sexual scripts and romantic scripts which are all the messages that we've been handed down whether that's generationally through our family and society whether that's like media outlets kind of the messages we pick up the art that we consume the messages we pick up, the art that we consume, the messages we hear from our peers. It all ends up feeling really quite prescriptive and narrow and there's that kind of undertone of just wanting to be normal. Petronormative.

Yeah, well lots of the normatives, but like why are we striving to fit in with this kind of idealized norm rather than thinking like I want us to set our standards higher. I want us to think about what incredible sex can look like in our lives, not just functional. What does a really happy, fulfilling relationship look like, rather than just like, I'm fine. And also, there are moments for just fine as well. I don't want to like massively, overly positivity wash and be like, we have to all live in this utopia all the time. It's realistic. It's embracing this utopia all the time. It's realistic,

it's embracing the mess of all of this, but it's kind of trying to, so much of my career has been influenced by me becoming more and more curious about this stuff. Okay. And kind of real time experiencing it and then talking about it professionally. So tell me how you got into this. I started working in schools. I worked for an amazing charity called Brooke and I'm still an ambassador for them and they are amazing and then started kind of accidentally talking about my job online and people were more and more

fascinated by it and so that just snowballed and started working with groups of adults doing like workshops and public speaking, realizing that honestly grown-ups had the same questions that a lot of 13, 14, 15 year olds I was working with had and I think we're all really deeply impacted by the lack of education that we didn't get when we were teenagers still, like both of us, and people who are older and younger than us. Yeah then I was thinking about what I wanted to write for my second book and I've been in open relationships for a decade now and in different ways and it's something that

whenever I do a workshop about non-monogamy or threesomes, they're always the best attenders. Really? People are so curious. Non-monogamy, it's people in like 20s upwards. But there are people in their 40s, 50s who are DMing me, asking questions, really curious. I think there's this growing curiosity.

So you wrote the playbook on it. I'm trying yeah. Well and also a lot it's there aren't that many UK books it's all American. It's either quite earnest therapy speak. Yeah. So theory based it kind of sucks the fun out of what you're potentially trying to do. Yeah. Or it's like wild sensationalized hypersexualized and I kind of wanted to find something that was in the middle. In the middle. okay. Talk to me about the history of monogamy, because I think this is fascinating and the sort of, you know, the feminist implications of monogamy and all of that, the kind of history of it. Yeah, so monogamy has a really rich and interesting history and our perception of monogamy now

is so different to how monogamy was viewed even 200 years ago but more and more and more. Around the kind of 1700s you get like this moment where romantic love starts to merge with marriage. Right. And before then there were some people who were like lucky enough to like slash fancy slash love the person that they were with most of the time. But it wasn't a given? No, and it was a business venture. This was about solidifying your assets. That's why we have things like dowries.

Yeah, and it was a lot of the men being like, cool, you'll have my kids. This is my legacy. This is where all my stuff goes to. We've also got to be real about the fact that the woman and the wife, mother in that was viewed as a property as well. And that has been pretty consistent in the way that marriages have been navigated and negotiated. And as much as I don't know, I always feel nervous saying a bit of this because this can be a touchy subject and people can get quite feel, you know, very personal about it. And this is not me in any way, like, criticizing people's individual choices to marry or be monogamous. But we have such a focus on love these days as the defining factor of marriage.

But really, still, that idea of kind of a tax break, solidify, like, putting your assets together. It's still a business venture. It's still quite businessy. And it serves a purpose. I do get that. But I wish more people were aware of the history around that and kind of where it's all come from.

Well, there's so much pain around it, isn't there? Because the idea that, I mean, non-monogamy, as I said, is not new. People have been, I suppose, non-consensually in non-monogamous relationships, sometimes without even without knowing they are. Do you know what I mean? I mean, this is what we call about cheating. But it does seem to me that there's a loss of sort of moral panic about this kind of thing. And it's interesting because we have to accept that it happens and that people,

humans are humans. The second chapter of the book is all about cheating, because that's a very common misconception of going, oh, well, if you're in an open relationship, you're just a cheater and you're legitimizing it. And that wasn't that's not me wanting to say it. I know it's not. But I know that that's something that does come up a lot of the time, which is why I

wanted to address it head on. And cheating is not great. Like doing anything that's deceitful and where you're kind of breaking trust in any relationship is not something I condone. I feel like most people are on board with that. But also it feels like if you are a person who has kind of curiosity and desires to have romantic or sexual connections or both with other people, it feels monogamy as just like an assumed way of doing relationships can feel really limiting. And for some people

that suits them really well. For others, if that's just the one relationship style you've been given, it might feel really clunky and like it just really doesn't work for you. I was lucky I was dating in my early 20s and matched with someone on a dating app who had polyamory in his profile and so I googled it and was like I've never heard that word before okay I'm casually dating I guess I'll just give this a go and I got to have this really magical like fly on the wall moment of dating him really getting to know his girlfriend really well like them moving in and me being able to ask like all of the questions that you're not allowed to

ask people like how does this work? How is this feeling? How did that work and how did that feel? It what? I'm really fat. Big chapter about jealousy. Because that does, I go, oh. Well, and so did I back then. And I guess with most things, the idea of something has more fear in it than the thing itself. A lot of it was actually quite anticlimactic of going like,

oh wow, okay, there's a thing that's about to happen and maybe it's gonna be really nerve-wracking. And sometimes the feelings come up and it's really sticky and really difficult, but also sometimes it would happen and I'd go, oh okay, yeah, that really wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be. I remember though, it's so funny talking

about this relationship that's like, so old in my brain now, but I went and hung out with this guy I was seeing. And we were watching some telly, slept together. That was all nice. And we were sat up in bed chatting. And his girlfriend came home. She was working late nights at the time.

And she knocked on the door, peeped her head round, and we'd not seen each other in ages. And so she sat on the bed and gave me a hug. I think I was wearing a t-shirt. I don't know if I was naked. But yeah, gave me a hug. I think I was wearing a t-shirt. I don't know if I was naked. But yeah, gave me a hug. And we had a genuine, oh my god, hi, how are you? What's going on?

And then we were all chatting for a bit. And it got late and was time to go to bed. And they had a spare room. And then we did this very funny British thing of me being like, oh, I'll sleep in the spare room. It's fine. She was like, no, it's OK. You stay here.

I'll go, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then this guy going, well, I can't. What? Blah, blah, blah. Did he go in the spare room. It's fine. She was like, no, it's okay. Like you stay here. I'll go. And then like this guy going, well, I, what, did he go in the spare room? In the end, like me and him slept in. She went in the spare room. And then in the morning, he went to work and the two of us, like hung out for a bit and had a cup of tea and a catch up and then gave each other a hug. And I went to work. You know, like it was I'm sure that for some people listening, that feels really wild.

And I guess at the time it felt a little bit like, oh, I'm doing something different. But it's just become my version of normal. I've done this for a long time. The way I do open relationships has continued to change and evolve over a decade, but I promise you it's not as crazy and wild as you think. Also, get up to think, we have a very limited view, don't we, of what non-monogamy is. Tell me why you choose to live that lifestyle. Lifestyle. My lifestyle.

We're going to sound like such a boomer. Tell me why you live the way you live my lifestyle. Yeah, I've bounced around and tried lots of different things. I did kind of capital P polyamory for a while, and that was really beautiful. It was also quite messy. But I think whenever you're trying something out, you've got to allow for a bit of mess.

And people trying this early on and going through mistakes and write off different non-monogamy as a whole, because they've seen one person have a difficult time with it. Whereas like, if you were in a monogamous relationship and it ended, I wouldn't go, see monogamy doesn't work, does it? It doesn't really make sense to me. Relationships are inherently messy. And they end and change and transform. We're all kind of hot messes. So yeah, did that and then was in a kind of long-term relationship with other partners for a're all kind of hot messes. So yeah, did that. And then was in a kind of long-term relationship

with other partners for a while and kind of developed this way of thinking about a lot of my romantic and sexual interactions being like sexy friends. So like a friendship where elements of like romance and sex can be woven into that. But if we stop sleeping together, it doesn't mean we're breaking up

because the friendship is the foundational part of that. And now, while I was writing this book, I've kind of been doing solo polyamory for a year or so now, which is this idea of I have several really deep connected meaningful relationships in my life, some of which have been like years and years long. But none of those relationships I'm seeing as me being one half of a whole. Your primary. I don't know, I find it really cheesy phrasing it like this, but for now, I'm like my own primary partner.

And then I have all of these other beautiful people in my life, but I'm not looking to anyone going, let's merge finances. I'm not really interested in marriage at the minute. I don't want to cohabit with anyone right now. I can so see how for someone else, that feels like I'm committing less. Today actually, I've been recording these Vox pops that I'm doing around the book launch. And so we've been asking people, like, would you open up your relationship?

And whenever someone said no, there was this real correlation between monogamy and exclusivity and commitment. And for me, ten years into this, I don't see exclusivity as the only way that you can show and act commitment, which I think can be quite hard to get your head around. It is, but again, it goes back to the sort of heteronormative, the ideas and how we validate ourselves as humans. I mean, that's the truth, you know. So like when we go back to that first conversation about how I initially the pleasure I derived from sex was the pleasure I gave to men. That's a very heteronormative sort of narrative that is

it's programmed into us. Right. But that idea. So I instinctively have to say if I think about the idea of me and my husband opening our relationship up, this is what I truthfully felt like. I would be fine with me sleeping with someone else. But you'd be so, so many people say that. I would be wildly uncomfortable with him sleeping with someone else. And that's, I'm like, I know logically that's just hypocritical, stupid. We are allowed to just hypocritical, stupid. We are allowed to be hypocritical though with this. I think it's really important to acknowledge that I find it easier for me to be the one going out and having the fun

than suddenly a partner going off and doing that. It's way harder to navigate. TD Direct Investing offers live support. So whether you're a newbie or a seasoned pro, you can make your investing steps count. And if you're like me and think a TFSA stands for Total Fund Savings Adventure, maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing. Now, let's talk about elastic love. Because, no, because you're taught that there's like, there's a pot of love and there's a certain amount to go around and once that's used up, no one else is, you know, getting any. And, you know, very much that culture where we live of like, what if they prefer that

person to me, you know, or I'm, you know, like we live in a very sort of, it's almost transactional to be honest. And we see a kind of innate competition with dating and with partners, you know, or I'm, you know, like we live in a very sort of, it's almost transactional, to be honest. And we see a kind of innate competition with dating and with partners, you know, even if we think about like the dating marketplace, the way that economics feeds into our language around dating, I think we have this real idea that we have to hold on to the kind of affection or the people that we've acquired and the way that we value success in relationships is how long you hold on to

something. Yeah. And like a long long long-term relationship is a beautiful thing. Like I was speaking to someone today who's been married for 56 years. Like I love that and she seems really happy. But if she was married for 56 years and miserable I don't think you'd get a prize for that. And maybe that's a kind of shift in generational attitude that I want people to feel fulfilled and joyful in their lives and in their relationships. Realistically, you're not going to feel like that all the time. There's a lot of mundane stuff that we have to do in our lives. But if you're miserable in a relationship, you owe it to yourself to not be in that anymore. That's not me then going, and then open up and explore this world,

world. But like, I think there's kind of social embarrassment and shame about ending relationships and we view that as a failure. And I really want people to see that as a positive, even though there's pain and mess there. I think you're right. I know, certainly I have a lot of friends who have got divorced and they've viewed it as a failure when actually sometimes you sit there and go, actually no, this is a really fantastically grown up decision that you've made. You're making some decisions for yourself. Yeah.

And then often, I've got a group of mates who are a decade older than me, the ones who've got divorced, they're having an absolute ball right now. It's kind of the fear of breaking the societal rules and we still have this stigma about this particularly divorce. But then a sense of freedom and agency and exploration, however you want that to look. I kind of want people to have access to that more. So talk to me about jealousy and how to sort of you sort of advocate leaning into it and exploring what it says about you in a way. I advocate leaning in because I can recognize in so many people I've worked with and in

myself as well that we are taught to see a bit of jealousy in ourselves and panic and like really try to distance like be ashamed of it not look at the kind of real vulnerabilities and what's going on behind it jumping to anger fear sadness like there's I speak about it a bit more in depth in the book but there's a brilliant writer called Cathy Labriola and she wrote a book all about jealousy it's this kind of workbook and those three emotions are kind of the pillar stones of how we respond to, it's this kind of workbook and those three emotions are kind of the pillar stones of how we respond to jealousy. It's always interesting thinking about which are the ones you gravitate to the most. Like a lot of people it can be anger, for me it's like

sadness and fear and the fear of kind of the downward spiral of going, oh if that person fancies that person then obviously they're going to abandon me because I'm worthless and they're going to fall in love and skip off into the sunset and they'll never think of me again. And it's like no, someone's just told me that they think that person's fit. If you lean in and look up the situation you're in and the feelings that are being brought up for you, you're able to have a bit more of a pragmatic understanding of where you're at. And I quite like jealousy because it really

encourages me to feel vulnerable and to communicate vulnerably with the people I'm with. So being able to say like, ah this is making me feel weird, can you sit with me and can we chat about it because some of this might be your actions and we can kind of tweak and refine the way that we're doing it, some of it is shit from my past that's being brought up and the more you know about this the better we're able to do this in the future. It's kind of a springboard for really excellent communication. So if someone's listening and they think actually I would like to explore maybe it's not non-monogamy maybe it's just their sexuality. You spoke about it earlier, often in perimenopause,

the hormones, whatever's going on, I don't know, like I am horny as hell, okay? Horny as hell, Ruby. I'm really happy for you. So when I was writing this book, my book, every day in the middle of the day, I'd just have to go and have a wank break. Oh yeah, you have to have a wank break. This was, this book is like built on masturbation, honestly. Oh my god. Sorry, we got sidetracked. So if someone's perimenopausal.

Okay, so say I wanted to explore my sexuality. What tips would you give me? You're just asking for a friend, right? Just asking for a friend. Well, in terms of feeling comfortable exploring and doing all of this, I'd encourage you to find the people in your life who you can chat a bit more intimately about this. Like, find some of your friends where you can kind of go there and have chats and be like, oh, God, we've never really spoken about this, but I guess it's important that we are.

Because it's much harder when you feel like you're doing this completely on your own. And I speak to lots of people who have these kind of fascinations and maybe follow people online and so get a taste of these different things but they don't really have people that they can chat to in their own lives. So try and find those people or look up sort of sex positive events, whether that's online or offline and make those connections where you can talk about this. And then there's some kind of 101 self-discovery therapy stuff. I'd want someone like you, who is looking to do this,

to look at the history of their sex life so far and what the really high moments are, like when you've had incredible sex before, what has that looked like and felt like, and why has it had such a lasting impact on you and what about that do you want to continue exploring? Like there's so much out there, it can feel a bit overwhelming and the encouragement isn't like go out there and do everything you possibly can because for lots of people that's not going to be appealing.

But I want you to think about what excites you and what makes you feel curious and kind of be led by that rather than all the shoulds. Because we get governed by shoulds in a really negative way. And then I see lots of people switch into a kind of sex positive world and pick up a load of shoulds again of being like, oh, I should be squirting and having multiple orgasms and going to sex parties and being polyamorous and it's like no no no no if some of that stuff appeals to you great is that squirting actually like I when I said it I saw your eyes go and I was like oh we're gonna talk about that aren't we I I genuinely I'm happy to put

it on the record that I have never squirted. That's okay a lot for a lot of people that is the case. I mean like there are people listening to this who probably have never had an orgasm. Yeah. That's the sad truth. Yeah and for some people that pleasure isn't about an orgasm. Again like when we have fed this should that good sex is like oh well you need to have an orgasm in order for it to be like successful. How horrible is that message if you're someone who really struggles to orgasm? Maybe you never have. Then you just automatically feel like a failure. Like, what does pleasure look and feel like if it's separated from orgasm, if orgasm is not on the table? I'm always amazed when women talk about coming through penetrative sex. Yeah, because I'm always amazed when women talk about coming through penetrative sex. Yeah.

Because I'm like, it's sort of... For lots of people, their anatomy just isn't made for that. Exactly. In the same way for me, I'm like, excuse me. Yeah. But it's about like 75% of women and people with like vulvas who, just because of the positioning of the vaginal opening and the clitoris, like anatomically, it's really hard to stimulate the clitoris, like anatomically it's really hard to stimulate

the clitoris while having just penetrative sex. So for about 75% of women and people with vulvas, they need some form of clitoral stimulation in order to have an orgasm. Well I feel much better about myself now Ruby. Yeah, we're in the majority and like if you're in that 25%, hey that's cool, but all of our bodies do different things Those people are like sex bombs. No, I can't do that and I'm still a sex bomb. That's true. And so are you I'm just imagining this being clipped and put on my social media and my mom going what the fuck? But I'm sure like I'd love to have a conversation with your mom about this stuff No, you don't have to be there as well. But like, you know, it's fascinating

Everyone has a relationship to this subject matter. If you're like an asexual and aromantic person, you have no interest in any of this. You've still grown up in a hypersexualized, hyperromanticized world. You still have a kind of like something interesting to say. Yeah. That's why I'm just a nerd about this. I think this is all like the kind of absolute core of us as humans.

What was the biggest misconception you had about non-monogamy when you started? That it was gonna be all about sex and I'd be going to an orgy every weekend. You're not? I'm not. Have you been to an orgy? I have orgyed in the past.

I will continue to orgy. But it's a rare occurrence. I know this is really boring. There's a lot more kind of like mundane chats and communication. I love the way you said, I know this is really boring talking about orgying. No one on this podcast has yet orgyed. I mean they may have orgyed, but we haven't spoken about their orgying. I'm having what I would classify as a moderate amount of group sex.

Okay. What's a moderate amount of group sex. Okay. What's a moderate amount of group sex? How many of you were in the room at the time? It varies, like, you know, three plus. Okay. Probably once a month. Of all genders? All genders, yeah. Okay.

But like that kind of Romanesque orgy. Yeah. That's only happened to me a handful, like a couple of times. And I thought that would be like, polyamory. Wow. Here's your key to the... To orgy town. What's the one piece of advice you'd give to someone who's thinking about orgying for the first time?

Manage your expectations. OK. I mean, sexual health. Bring your lube, bring your condoms. Yeah. Bring your boundaries. Bring your boundaries. Don't get too drunk. Be present in that moment and... What happens, is there a lot of drinking or juice?

They vary. There's a slightly more kind of Berlin vibe parties that are a bit more hardcore. A lot of places I've gone to, there's not a big drinking culture. A lot of the time people drink when they're kind of nervous. Whenever I go into a straight mainstream club, which is about once a year now, I'm like, whoa, there is a kind of drinking problem in the

UK. And actually a lot of the time in the queer spaces I'm in, people aren't as on it. Okay. Just for those of us, we're a big sober community, the Life of Briny. And I don't want to rule us out of orgies because we've given up drinking. There are specific parties that are just like for sober people. Maybe we could create our own life of briny Ruby Rare. Sober orgy. Hey.

All our details are in the show notes. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. massive thank you to Ruby for being so lovely and frank with me today and getting me to talk about squirting for the first time in my entire life. Her book, The Non-Monogamy Playbook, is as much about self-discovery as it is about sex, frankly. Whether you're monogamous, polyamorous, or just someone who wants to rethink the shoulds of modern love and life, it's a fascinating read. Now, if this conversation sparks something for you, share

it with a friend, maybe an intimate friend. Go on, start that slightly awkward but important chat about sex and relationships and please hit follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. Take care, be kind to yourself and I'll see you on Friday!