The Life Of Bryony - 41. Tuppence Middleton: The Dark Truth About OCD & Fear That Controlled Her Life

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

Welcome to The Life of Bryony Where we explore life’s messy, beautiful, and challenging moments. MY GUEST THIS WEEK: TUPPENCE MIDDLETON This week, I’m joined by Tuppence Middleton—actor and author of Scorpions. In her book, Tuppence explores her lifelong experience with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and emetophobia (a debilitating fear of vomiting). We discuss how OCD isn’t just about cleanliness or order—it’s about fear, control, and mental gymnastics that can take over your life. Tuppence opens up about her constant battle with intrusive thoughts, the exhausting need for reassurance, and how her emetophobia has shaped so many aspects of her life—from acting, to motherhood, to even deciding what foods to eat. She shares how OCD and phobias can make everyday experiences—like travelling, touching objects, or even interacting with people—deeply distressing, and how she’s learned to live with what she calls the ‘scorpions’ in her mind. If you’ve ever struggled with anxiety, intrusive thoughts, or an overwhelming fear that controls parts of your life, this episode is a must-listen. LET’S STAY IN TOUCH 🗣️ Got something to share? Text or send a voice note on 07796657512—just start your message with LOB. 💬 Use the WhatsApp shortcut: https://wa.me/447796657512?text=LOB. 📧 Prefer email? Drop me a line at [e-mail]. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone who might find Tuppence’s insights helpful—it really makes a difference! Bryony xx BOOKS DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE 📚 Scorpions by Tuppence Middleton A deeply personal and powerful exploration of OCD, emetophobia, and intrusive thoughts, and how they shape our lives. Buy from Waterstones SOME GREAT RESOURCES 🧠 Mind UK – Mental health support and information: www.mind.org.uk | Call 0300 123 3393 or text 86463 💭 Anxiety UK – Support and resources for anxiety and panic: www.anxietyuk.org.uk CREDITS 🎙️ Presenter: Bryony Gordon 🎙️ Guest: Tuppence Middleton 🎧 Content Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan 🎥 Audio & Video Editor: Luke Shelley 📢 Executive Producer: Mike Wooller A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Life of Briny, the podcast where we delve headfirst into life's messier moments. Today, I'm joined by Tuppence Middleton, actress, writer and author of the amazing book Scorpions, her deeply personal memoir about living with a metaphobia and obsessive compulsive disorder. I have hit a milestone unbeknownst to me. I wanted to ask you, so I am now living on my own and I am thinking of getting a house made again just because I want, I'd love to be mortgage free at some point in my life. But it's the first mortgage free at some point in my life. But it's the first time I've ever lived on my own.

But I've realized for someone who's quite neat when he has a housemate, I couldn't get over how messy I am when I'm left to my own devices. And my question for you is this, did you ever have housemates? And can you remember that point where you lived on your own or?

I feel like I have housemates right now. Okay. Can I talk about this? Oh yes, go on. Because my brother is living with us. My brother, Rufus. your own or? I feel like I have housemates right now. Okay. Can I talk about this? Oh yes, go on. Because my brother is living with us. My brother Rufus. Very nice guy. We had him on the podcast.

We had him on the podcast. He is like 12 years younger than me. I have got to the stage where I'm like the mess that him together, him and Harry are like just the standards have just dropped over the over the months. And I sent the most ridiculous set of messages to our house for what's that group yesterday. And I kind of want to read them out to you. Please stop wiping your faces on hand towels. After you've brushed your teeth, it's disgusting and spreads germs. There's no point any of us even washing our hands if we then dry them on towels that someone has just wiped their mouth on. I may as well

wash my hand by asking one of you to spit on it. I wash the hand towels every week and I've written the next bit in capitals because towels need to be washed. But really this only works if you don't use the hand towels to wipe your mouth. They are hand towels, not tongue towels. Mason Hashtag living with boys. Gretchen And I've just got this message back from my husband saying, I think you've just written the intro to your next column. Mason I think so. I honestly think you might get a book out of this, to be honest.

Gretchen Oh, yeah. I am like, Mason Did you ever live in Iran? Gretchen I did. And it didn't last very long because I was like 26 or something. And I had this like little, it was like a bed, it was basically a bed, it was a bed set in Bethnal Green. And I went absolutely fucking crazy. Like being able to live by myself, like no structure around me in active alcoholism and addiction. Can you even imagine on the one hand, it was like, ah, this is great. I could do whatever I want. Wiping your mouth on the hand towels. I don't even, this is great. I could do whatever I want. You're wiping your mouth on the hand towels.

I don't even had a hand towel. I had like, I probably had like one towel that was, you know, it was like, it was really carnage. So my experience of living alone is probably different to your experience of living alone now as a 40 year old. Like if I'm traveling for work and I have like a night in a hotel, even if it's like a premier in or whatever, I just, I'm so happy. Yeah. That sort of thing of like, Oh, I've got my own space. There's nobody else in it.

I can starfish on the bed and everything can be as I want it to be. Yeah. Indulge a bit. And if, yeah. And nobody, yeah. It's just, that's like, oh, there's heaven. Like you time. Yeah.

I think as a mom as well, that must be quite like, cause you probably have a house filled with, as you said, brothers, husbands, daughters. Yeah. We have Toppins Middleton on the show today. How did you enjoy your chat with Toppins? I love Toppins and I kind of feel this kinship with her. This is the second episode we've done about OCD on the life of Briny. And I just get so amazing to be able to unpack this like really misunderstood illness that

I've suffered from since I was like 11 or 12. I'm always kind of struck when I meet other people who have gone through the same thing and then, but you know, who people that you've, I've seen like Tuppence on movie screens and things. And then to learn later that she has this background that's very similar. I don't know, there's something, I find something really powerful about that. Absolutely.

So for me, the whole thing of like my writing about OCD for the first time when I wrote about it in Mad Girl, because I wanted to meet other people who had this same type of OCD as me. It was like my way of going, if you have this too, why don't we come and hang around this book and we can talk about this kind of thing together. It was really moving. Here I am in a podcast studio that has been designed just for us, do you know what I mean? For the life, called The Life of Brian E. are talking about OCD, this terrible dark thing that has blighted my life for so long. There's

a magic in then being able to talk about it so openly on a podcast. Yeah, and to an audience. Phenomenal. Toppinson's book is an incredible exploration of OCD, what it really feels like to live with it, how it manifests in daily life and why so many people struggle to get the right diagnosis. Everything you wanted to know about OCD, emetophobia, intrusive thoughts and anxiety, but were too afraid to ask, coming up right after this. If you're enjoying this conversation so far, don't forget to hit subscribe and follow so you never miss a moment. I'm going to start by asking you how you are because when I was reading this book I really

oh it really took me into the kind of intricate places of obsessive compulsive disorder that sort of on a daily basis, all the different places that we go or sufferers of obsessive OCD go that we don't, people never see. Yeah. So you write in the book so perfectly about how OCD is sort of seen as a joke. It's a whole, you know, it's almost like a byword for cleanliness, organisation. And yet it's not. It's all these other different things. And so I just want to ask you how's your OCD and how are you Yeah. The scorpions. Yeah, the scorpions. I mean they're kind of ever-present but ever present but I'd say at this point in my life they are as under control as I could hope for I suppose. I think that having had years of building up a sort of armory of defenses against them I suppose you get used to figuring out

what works at different times. And they're usually triggered by stressful moments or sometimes complete silence. You know, when you're at your least busy, sometimes they raise their heads and I think that they're never gone. But I feel pretty good. I think one of the great things about the book was that it was a very cathartic thing and actually, as is the case with so many mental health conditions, the more you talk about it, the more helpful it becomes. And I think that the more you can share, other people realise not only that they're not alone,

but also that there are ways to live a kind of functioning life with these things going on in your head. Scorpions. With these scorpions. It's really interesting because you refer to OCD as your scorpions. Yes. I like giving it a name. I always remember when,

because I have experienced obsessive compulsive disorder too. I have to be quite careful. I always refer to it as my OCD and I have to like, try not to take ownership of it and not be defined by it. Yeah. Like I have to catch myself, but I remember a therapist saying to me once in my twenties,

give it a name so that you don't, it's not all mixed up in your head. Yeah. And I called it Jareth the Goblin King. Do you remember from Labyrin head. Yeah. And I called it Jarrah the Goblin King. Do you remember from Labyrinth? Yeah. Because it reminded me of, like, I remember watching that movie when I was a kid and David Bowie in his like tight silver trousers. Yeah. I like, I knew he was evil, but I found him, I found him quite attractive and interesting. Yeah. And that

to me summed up OCD. Like, I know it's bad and I know I shouldn't be attractive and enticing. And that to me summed up OCD. I know it's bad and I know I shouldn't be going to the thought. I know I shouldn't be getting dragged into the obsessions and the compulsions, but somehow I can't stop. Very persuasive. Yeah. Yeah. I think that for me, I remember when we were studying Shakespeare at school and I read Macbeth for the first time.

There's a line which Macbeth says to his wife when things are starting to unravel and go pretty badly for him. And he says, oh, full of scorpions is my mind. And I remember something clicking and thinking, yes, I understand that feeling, even though we're not talking about the same thing. OCD always felt to me as this sort of restless, unsettled kind of crawling feeling, whether it was in my head or whether I quite often felt it in my chest. If I was trying to complete a compulsion or I had to do something in order to kind of calm an intrusive thought, then the feeling was always like something building or crawling in my chest. And unless that feeling stopped, I couldn't stop the compulsions.

It was sort of like I would call it being satisfied. So I was satisfied that I had kept that thought at bay or I had done the thing that would be the trade off. So nothing bad would happen. Yeah. Let's talk about your experiences of OCD and of mental health more generally, which you described so beautifully in the book. Go back to 1998 in your 11.

I was reading about you. You became really unwell. Yeah. I was reading about you, you became really unwell. Yeah, so it started with, I had a kind of, I guess like a vomiting virus, which made me quite unwell for a few days. But that's not uncommon when you're at school and you're young and lots of things are going around and you have a very undeveloped immune system. A few weeks later, I started to become excessively tired and feel nauseous all the time.

And so I would be on my way to school and then I wouldn't end up going into school or I would get sent home early. And this kept happening again and again until I eventually stopped going to school for a few months. And I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome or ME. And it was a really strange experience because I was sleeping all the time, but it was kind of unrefreshed sleep.

So I never felt good. I would sleep for hours and hours and hours, a whole day, and then I would wake up and still feel bad. And I was so weak that putting my clothes on would be a real struggle and I wouldn't eat anything. I lost sort of half my body weight and we had no idea how long this was going to last. My parents were really worried and so I took a good few months of school until I started to become better. This was your last year of primary school. Yes, exactly.

You were really young. Yeah, I was young and I, you know, no child likes being sick or throwing up or anything like that. But I kind of... I hated it before that. But then I think these months of being so unwell and not having any end in sight that I knew of and also having this sort of unresolved nausea. So I would feel sick all the time and I would never actually throw up. I started to fear this idea of throwing up because it became so big in my head and it was so unknown. I didn't know if it was going to happen, but it felt like it was going to happen constantly. So it was this sort of constant presence. And then as I started

to get better, which happened not spontaneously, but quite quickly and without any kind of warning. I thought that was the end of it. And then it was, I'd say a couple of months after that, I started to get symptoms of OCD. You developed a metaphobia, a fear of vomit. Yes. I mean, it strikes me that this absolutely overshadowed your child. I mean, still to a certain extent overshadowsed your child and still, I mean, still to a certain extent overshadows your life now?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, I sort of before I knew that I had OCD and before, even now that I know what it is and I know other people largely don't have it, of course there are people that do, but I find it so hard to imagine that people don't think about vomit or throwing up as much as I do. I kind of, it's just always there and I think about it every day. And so how do you feel like coming into a different place, traveling here, yes, like using public toilets, all of that stuff. Talk us through how that feels. Yeah, it's, it's a strange thing. You kind of get better at dealing with it as you get older. And I kind of, I get to know my comfort zone.

So for example, I'm much better at giving a hug, even if I don't know someone very well, because it means that I don't shake hands. And your lovely producer who I met on the way in, I shook hands with at the beginning, but then I made sure. How did that make you feel? Well, then I went to the toilet and washed my hands, with at the beginning, but then I made sure. How did that make you feel?

Well then I went to the toilet and washed my hands because nothing to do with... He is really filming. No, it's nothing to do with that. But it would happen with anyone. But I just do it automatically. I just think as soon as I arrive at a new place, I go to the toilet and I wash my hands. How did you feel about... we hugged when we came in? Yeah, hugging is fine because it's something about thinking about, okay, what have people touched and what if this person's children have been vomiting all night

and I didn't know what if this person has touched a door which someone touched when they hadn't washed their hands when they came out of the bathroom and I can't vouch for the hands. Whereas a hug is kind of, you don't have to make contact with the hands which then might make contact with your mouth. Does that make sense? Or you might touch your face or... which sounds so ridiculous and I almost don't think about it anymore. It's just a standard thing. I kind of, I don't know if you watched Squig Game when it was on and the first sort of challenge in the very first series where there's that giant girl who kind of looks around and then if anyone moves... Red light.

She's, yes, red light light but yeah like green light red light green light yeah and she's I'm scanning the crowd for people who are slightly moving and that's kind of how I feel that I'm constantly scanning okay so I touched this so that means I have to go to the bathroom now and then if I go here then I don't have to touch that door and it's like I feel but I'm doing it without realizing so it used to take a lot more of my mental energy, whereas now I think it can, I can be doing it almost on autopilot, depending on how, you know, how stressed I am at that point in my life. I think that the thoughts

and I have a lot of counting compulsions, those things I can do, yeah, almost without thinking. It's the checking stuff that I think is harder. It's interesting because I think there's a lot of... I first developed Obsessive Compulsive Disorder when I was also 11. And I didn't get a diagnosis actually until 1998. You know, I was reading your book and I was thinking, hell, it's not funny, obviously. It gave me great comfort to think... You say in the book that all along when you were younger,

you just wanted to know there were other people out there who have the same thing as you. And that absolutely chimed with me. I just felt like such a strange, I just thought I was free. And then reading your book from this distance in the year 2025, and I was thinking, God, when you were going to the doctor and they were like, we don't really know what's wrong with her time off school. I was, I mean, I'm sort of a bit older than you, but I was going to the doctor, my mum was taking me to the doctor and I had this, what we realize now was obsessive compulsive disorder, obsessive hand washing. I was terrified that I was gonna catch AIDS and it was like it was everything. Again, the way you just described that the

red light, green light, I always think of it as like a meerkat poised and looking on the horizon for danger constantly. And I would see danger on tube seats or anything that was red or there was like all these weird coding in my mind and reading your book I was taken back to that the mental gymnastics your brain is constantly doing with OCD. I mean we talk about stimming don't we? You know which is a kind of what people with autism the physical things that people like I you know as a sort of but I think of I think of the counting as a sort of mental stimming. Totally, and it's a kind of way of calming your brain.

And I think that the interesting thing about OCD is that you can't see those things, that they're always happening inside and that there's an element of being able to kind of hide all of your compulsions and your thoughts. being able to kind of hide all of your compulsions and your thoughts and for it to be hard for people to understand that you have this condition but that you're still able to be bright and breezy and have a functioning kind of existence. Well because you're, I mean you're a very successful actress, you know, you've been in Netflix series and Downton Abbey and all the while, you know, putting on this sort of character, but while suffering from this quite excruciating mental illness.

Yeah, I think that those things actually really help. I don't know if you're the same, but I find it really helps me when I'm busy, actually. The times when I'm at my worst, I suppose, is when I kind of lie down at the end of the day and I'm in bed and I have nothing to think about but going to sleep, then that's when everything kind of rises to the surface. And that's when I start to think mostly about kind of illness and death and I start to go through a kind of body scanning thing where I look for symptoms in my body or I think that I'm convinced I have this illness or this type of cancer or this disease. And of course things come up in your life where you then do get

ill and so then you have to kind of manage that. Then it's almost like a kind of the scorpions are telling you, ah, you were right to, we were right to be worried, you know. So you kind of have to, it's a constant sort of balance between your sense of logic and your OCD. I mean, I think probably we would both attest to being quite logical people in other ways and you can, you logically can understand something, but you don't trust that your eyes are seeing it. And that's a really hard thing to explain to people that you, I can look at a tap and

understand, I can see that it's off, but I don't believe my eyes. So I'll stand there staring at it or I'll put my hand underneath it. And I know that I can't feel water hitting my hand but still I I can't accept that it's off and so I'll spend a long time there until I can leave the house and I'm satisfied that it's off and sometimes that means taking a picture of it so that I can look at the picture on the bus or in the car and you know oh is it off okay and I look at the picture and strangely the picture is better evidence than my own brain. So I always describe OCD as your brain refusing to acknowledge what your eyes can see.

Yeah that's exactly it. That disconnect and it is really hard to describe to people who don't have it what that is like. Anything that I inherently have seen it can't be true and of course that that has a massive effect on your esteem in the rest of your life but that's a different podcast entirely. But the thing that I, I mean I almost want to just go and grab my phone and because I was looking at it this morning and show it, you write about just all the pictures on your, can I show it? Yes please. Okay, so like oven, okay? And I don't know how many pictures came up of, you know, just look, look, look, can you

see? Yeah, that's it. I mean, it's like looking at my own phone and it's, it's the hob. Yeah. Oh my God, I've got identical photos. And then, and then, and then also, oh, the other thing, I don't even know why I have candles given that my obsession with them is such that like, you know, like this, you know, like just to check that they're out. We've got identical phone photo albums. And it's that thing as well. Ions.

Ions. Why I don't have an iron for that reason? I want to, I took my iron to work in a Tesco bag because it was just easier than the rigmarole that was having to look again and again and again and again. And so it took a lot of time. Oh, I've done that with straightness. Yeah. That thing of one of the big kind of therapeutic things that they say with obsessive compulsive disorder is that you shouldn't seek the reassurance because what it does is it establishes that loop in your brain.

So you get stuck in that doorway. That is so difficult. Like, it's so difficult. Like it's so difficult. And I think this is a really important thing to say because I often say to my husband, oh, is that hand off or is that he's like, you're seeking reassurance. And I think, well, give it to me then. Otherwise, I can't get on with my day. Yeah. And it's so difficult to and I know and also it might be really interesting for people listening or watching who are trying to deal with someone like have someone they love in their life with OCD and how hard it is to deal with someone who is in so much pain and you're like I can't give you what

you need because actually what you need is actually making you more ill. But then it's also it's a shortcut to feeling better for the person with OCD. So you try to convince those people around you to help you. You become quite manipulative. Well, yeah, because you have to seek a solution. And sometimes that means doing the thing that you know you're not allowed to do. Yeah. Which is someone just tell you something.

I've done the same thing to my partner. I just said, just tell me it's fine. You know, I've been grilling him about, do I rather, does he think that that person that we spoke to, do you think that when they said they were ill, that meant they were vomiting? And of course, there's no possible way that he can know that. But then he said, well, I don't know. Yeah, but just tell me that you think no. And he said, but you've told me now that you want me to tell you. So it's not, you know it's not real that I'm saying that, but just for me to hear it, I just need someone.

It's like you give the responsibility to someone else, which is not a good thing, but it's also, sometimes you just need a way to cope with it. It's really interesting because I am now seeing it from the point of view in my own life of the kind of carer, the parent. So my daughter has chronic emetophobia. So when I was reading your book, it really gave me an insight into how her life is. And I think that, you know, it's really interesting because like, as you say,

nobody likes being sick, no one enjoys sick, but I've discovered there's quite a lot of people out there who have this paralyzing fear of it, you know, as you describe. And so it's really interesting to be, I'm coming, I'm understanding more about recovery from obsessive compulsive disorder and, you know, like just phobias and these kind of fears and anxiety-based disorders through watching someone I love very much in my life going through, you know, something that is... and it's horrible and not being able to give that reassurance to her because I know it's in the long run, it's going to make things worse, you know, saying, well, you might be sick. I know, I remember hearing that and just thinking, my heart just, even you saying that now,

I think my heart sinks, like, I really. Sorry, you know. No, no, no, but I feel her pain because you just want someone to tell you it's not gonna happen and they can't because that's maybe not true and then maybe you are sick. But it's that thing too of when, you know, you're desperately not wanting to pass that on.

I feel that with my own daughter that I, you know, even understanding that there can be part of this disorder, which is hereditary. So of course, maybe she has some of those traits, but also it's so, you know, it can be environmental. So that I think it's sort of a perfect storm of the both. So there is every chance she could have elements of it, no matter how hard I try not to pass those things on. But it's the emetophobia that I really don't want to pass on to her because I just, that's the one that's caused me the most anxiety. And I used to look at, you know, friends at school, you know, like later on in our kind

of late teens, early twenties, if they were ill or if they, you know, like later on in our kind of late teens, early twenties, if they were ill or if they, you know, got a bit too drunk or something and they could just throw up and carry on and have a conversation and just go on with their day. I could not believe my eyes. I was just so jealous of how carefree they were after that. And I just, I still don't know what that is to be like that. And of course, then you start to, if you are a caregiver and the person that you are taking care of start to, if you are a caregiver and the person that you are taking care of is sick, but you have emetophobia, then that's a whole other thing that you have to...

Feeling awful. Feeling awful, so much guilt. And guilt for so many different things, as well as the emetophobia, feeling guilt that, you know, sometimes if you can't leave the house or you're taking extra long and then you're really late to meet someone or you're really late for a meeting and you lie because you'd rather say that the traffic is bad than say I was touching my cooker knobs all morning. I mean it's like ridiculous. So you think there's no easy solution and it's not your fault but it's nevertheless you still you kind of carry that I think. I think that though it's really important to talk about the stuff and for me what I I accept the OCD will always be part of my life and I always remember hearing Stephen Fry on Desert Island Discs saying that he didn't know if he would necessarily get rid

of bipolar disorder because it had all these other aspects to it that were, you know, that had made him him and he, you know, so he wouldn't want to trade in one because you'd get rid of the others. And I remember listening to it. And I remember I was in a really terrible episode of OCD at the time, like ruminating. It was awful. Thinking I was, you know, I'd go to prison, I was the worst person in the world. And I remember thinking, no, I would, if someone could take OCD away with me, from me, I would, I don't care what else it would take with it because it's so painful and it's so torturous and it's absolutely, I hate it, hate it, hate it, I hate it. It's still that description of the scorpions, you know, like just crawling up you.

It's just the OCD feeling. But now, you know, I've lived with OCD for far longer than I haven't. Yeah. You know, yeah, I see it now a bit differently. And I if it comes up, I'm like, oh, what's going on right now for you, Briny? It's almost like a warning system from my brain. Yeah. I see it as my brain's incredibly sophisticated way

of telling me that for whatever reason, I don't feel safe at that moment. Yeah. There's something going on in my life that is making me feel unsafe. Yeah. And so then have a moment where I'm like, breathe. Yeah. It might not be something rational that's making me feel unsafe.

No. It could be something really stupid, like I think my boss hates me. Yeah. It doesn't have to be big. It doesn't have to be dramatic. No. But it's like, it's sort of,

and so I've started to see OCD less as this kind of foe and more as this thing, Jareth the Goblin King, the scorpions, like, bless them. They've caused me a lot of pain, but they are trying to help me. Yeah, and I think most of the people that I've met or talked to with OCD are very self-aware people.

They are, they're quite instinctive. And I think that you know when something doesn't feel right, but you don't necessarily have the right tools to cope with it. I wanted to talk to you about acting and what that has given you in terms of there's a sort of therapeutic element to it. Do you find that when you are working and when you are acting you could almost it's like the scorpions can be kind of cleared out and you get to be someone else. Yeah I think that it's just taking attention away from the scorpions so the more I don't

look at them then I can kind of pretend they're not there for a while but you know for example I, a year and a half ago I was rehearsing for a play and I was playing Liz Taylor, who is, of course, famously very self-assured and confident and at ease with herself. And I can't imagine that she suffered with OCD. I think she suffered with many other things, but not OCD. You know, so it was about trying to channel that. But at the same time, I had to be in rehearsals very close to the actor playing Richard Burton, Johnny Flynn, and you know,

you have to be touching them all the time and you have to kiss and you have... And one of my big worries at that time was, and I told him and he was very open with me about it, as I said, I'm worried that maybe your kids are going to all get norovirus and then you're going to be up all night taking care of them and then you're going to have it before I know that you have it, like it's going to be incubating in your system and then so when we're rehearsing you're going to pass it to me and then a few days later you'll get symptoms

and then I'll know that I already, you know, this kind of spiral of madness. And he totally got it. But it's, you know, even in those moments you can feel like, okay, I'm taken away by this and the character is taking me away from it and I'm busy and I'm focused. And then suddenly this other element kind of creeps in. It's still there. It's a weird job though, having to kiss someone. It's pretty weird. Yeah, I mean, the whole- Do you use tongues? No.

I can't believe I just asked that question. Well, I mean, I'm sure people do. Well, I mean, I'm sure people do. Yeah, I've taken us off onto a whole. There is an intimacy there that is quite, you know, that is like, I don't have that in my, like, I don't have to put my mouth to someone else's in my job. It's quite good exposure therapy. Well, yeah, sort of accidentally is. Yeah, I think now I'm at the sort of point where I'm playing less love interests and

more mums. So actually it's happening a bit less. Have you found that? Yeah. But how old are you? You're 30? I'm 37, about to be 38. So you're not that old and already? No, but it's sort of, you know, in acting years, it's like dog years, isn't it? Is it? No, but is it? About 77. No, I think it's, it's, no, it's, I think it's getting much better. I think the industry is getting much better. And I think that people are writing much more complex characters for women who aren't just 22 and then there's this giant gap and then suddenly you're playing older women. I think we're in a time where there's a lot more to be said about this stage of our lives.

It's a really interesting time in your life for a woman, I think. There's so many things going on. But yeah, I would say the kind of the snoggy roles happen much less, which is no bad thing. So you had a baby? I had a baby in 2022. OK. And tell me how that has affected your OCD and your mental health. So, well, one of the first things I was sort of worried about, which happened long before I even thought about having a baby, was the idea of being pregnant and getting morning sickness. I was like terrified of it. I dread reading every year or seeing on the news, oh, norovirus is going around.

It's like my, I just panic so much that she's gonna get it or that I'm gonna get it. And I think, yeah, that's still one of my biggest obstacles, I think. It impacts kind of every part of your life. And have you ever had any, I mean, you have had therapy to try and... Yeah so I mean I've tried various things. When I was in my early

twenties I was referred for CBT therapy which was the first kind of therapy I had which I spent most of the time being so terrified would turn into exposure therapy where I'd be made to... the thing that you fear them. Yeah, I which was sick. So I was sure I was going to have to lick a toilet seat or I would I think I don't know where I'd read this but that that they made you drink a glass of very strong orange juice or something like that which would make you throw up. I don't know where, but I'd read that so it stuck in my head. I'm sure that that's not true. Or there's something else to the story there that I was missing.

But, you know, things like that, all that I was going to be asked to go to someone's house who had norovirus or something like that. They were going to make me sick. So I spent most of the time convincing the therapist that I was actually fine. So I'd started it, panicked that it was going to turn into that, and so then kind of backpedaled. And every time I had an assignment, you know, kind of writing down my illogical thought and then finding a logical way out of it, I would just say, yep, I think it's working great.

And I think for me that was hard, even though I think it's the thing that's most commonly sort of prescribed for OCD as a treatment. And I think it's very effective for a lot of people. I found it very hard to fight illogical thoughts with logic. So for me eventually I ended up doing talking therapy, which was the thing that really helped me. Between those two different types of therapy, I had taken an antidepressant called Prozac, which is often prescribed for OCD and not for depression because it has this sort of very calming effect on the thoughts and it sort of disturbs some of those neural pathways. So I found that really helpful because I think at that point when I was on medication for it, it was

the physical symptoms that were so overwhelming, the anxiety and I couldn't stop waking myself up in the night with panic attacks or feeling that kind of crawling sensation just take me over and for me then I needed something quite physical and quite instant whereas therapy came later. I often hear actors talk about how you you know, it's important that people don't know anything about them, you know what I mean? It helps them to play the character or whatever. Like, for you, this feels like a really important thing for you to have to do. Yeah, I think it's, I was really conflicted because I think on the one hand, when I was

growing up like you, I felt I just wanted to hear someone else talk about it and so I really want other people to recognise themselves in it which is the amazing thing about kind of putting it out there in the world you write it and it feels so much so personal and so solitary and then it's out there for other people to read and I've already had a couple of people who've read an early version of the book say to me, I had both OCD and ME and this I feel really seen by what you're writing. And so that that means so much to me. But at the same time, it's really it's difficult because you are letting people into a very intimate part of you and your life. Your depiction of getting on a plane.

Yeah. depiction of getting on a plane. Yeah. Like getting on a plane is like the amount of magical thinking compulsions that I have to put in place. Not because of sick, because it's like a control thing of crashing. And I have this thing, one of the things which I thought, which recently I was with, I was traveled,

it was kind of long haul flight and our flight back was at two in the morning. Yeah. So it was a night flight. One of the people I was traveling with said, well, why don't you buy one of those like neck pillows? And I said, I can't. And they said, why?

It'll make your journey much more comfortable. And I was like, well, no, because my brain for some reason, Tuppence has told me that if I buy a neck pillow the plane I'm on will crash. Yes and is that because then you might go to sleep and if you're asleep then the plane might crash? No what it is is that I've never worn... Okay so all the planes I've been on thus far have not crashed. No neck pillow. And on none of them I've worn a neck pillow. So that must be why those planes have not crashed, haven't they? Well yeah, I mean this is, I remember talking to someone about it, grilling someone who was an air steward and them sort of eventually having to say, you know, none of us want to crash either. I mean, the pilot doesn't want to crash. So we will do

everything we can in our power. It's not that we think we're casual about it and that you're worried about it. No one wants to crash. But it was mental. But I was like, when we landed, my friend said to me, so did you get any sleep, Briony? I said, no, but I took one for the team and we landed safely. So I'm fine without my neck pillow. And she was was like it had nothing to do with your neck pillow or your lack of neck pillow. But I also have to say like I have to think of two films I've watched where people have been happy on planes. Like the planes have landed safely because otherwise I get introduced to thoughts of like, Oh, I immediately thought about before playing crash movies.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I have to think of two. So I think of Bridget Jones, the one where they go to Thailand. And then I think of the holiday. And then I, and then I have, and then, oh yeah, that's a good one as well. Oh, thanks. And then also have to, then I have to think of two television programs. Because there was, there was one I saw while at the plane. Anyway, so I think of Friends when they come to London and Ab Fab, seen them on a plane. And then I have to think of two places beginning with L that aren't Lockerbie, Lille, Los Angeles. Good. Okay. Yeah. And I have to think of two people beginning with B who aren't Buddy Holly,

died in a plane crash. So can I tell you who I think of? Who? This is ridiculous. I for some reason, every time I think about Brian Adams, the Canadian rock god, and Brian Harvey from East 17. Or the Brian. Two people beginning with B, two men beginning with B. Now that is my brain. Yeah. And I'm aware that telling you, like I'm laughing about it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And then when I get on the plane, my first step on the plane, I have to think of two pictures I've seen of happy people getting on planes.

So I think of Sherry Blair getting on the plane for like some Olympics thing with Tony. And I've seen a picture of Victoria Beckham getting on a plane looking happy. So I think of... Yeah, it's very rare. So I think, and I'm trying to, like, there's no point trying to explain or lodge, you know, but it's like, and it's fucking exhausting. Yeah, because it's, and this is all going on whilst you're probably having a conversation with the person that you get on to the plane with.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I need a holiday. Yeah, after the plane, yeah. And then once you're like, you get to the end of the plane journey, I genuinely feel like it's like I've survived an ordeal. Yeah. Because I have. In my head, I have survived this whole ordeal. Well, everyone else is like, oh, I watched a movie. Or just people who can get on planes and immediately fall asleep. These are not my people. No. The wins that we take, like there are lots of little things that I can do now that people wouldn't like see as big things. Yes.

Before having children, I would have avoided going to any kind of a soft play. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Where there would be a massive group of kids that I didn't know. Petri dishes. Petri dishes running around just brushing up against my daughter and potentially having this disease or that disease or they've thrown up and I don't know they've thrown up or you know and things that you have to do because for her I want her to enjoy that and to be social and to also to build up her own immune system. So it's about sort of not sort of thinking selfishly about those things. And of course, it's not just being selfish. It's part of the disorder.

But it's things that no one else would even think of, you know, like, oh, I'll take her to the park because it's outside and because it's much harder for vomiting bug to spread outside than it is when you're touching, you know, kind of plastic blocks in a soft plane, all of that kind of stuff. Those little things are big wins for me. I have to tell you, do you know what I think is a little thing but is a massive win and I think that we haven't even acknowledged is that you and I sitting here just talking about OCD openly when when we were kids, it literally had us trapped in our heads and our brains and our houses. And this is massive. This is a massive thing to be able to do. So I'm not going to knock the whole set down. No, because this is what it's all about. It's like, oh, this disease, this illness, this condition,

I felt like I was never gonna have a life. Yeah, and I think it's important for people to see that you can have it and still have a life. You don't have to be Howard Hughes and be stuck in, you know, inside of a basement room, not speaking to anyone with, you know, covers of a basement room not speaking to anyone with, you know, covers on your hands and feet. It's more complex than that. And just because you can't see it, then it's not obvious to other people. It doesn't mean that it's not there.

Heather Meehan A huge thank you to Tuppence Middleton for her honesty and insight in answering your questions today. If this episode resonated with you, know that you are not alone. OCD and anxiety are real, valid and incredibly tough to live with, I know, but there is help out there. If you find this episode helpful, share it with someone who might need it, a friend, a partner or anyone struggling with anxiety and intrusive thoughts. And don't forget to hit follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. Take care, be kind to yourself and I'll see you next time.