The Life Of Bryony - 43. Could You Be Addicted to Anxiety? Psychotherapist Owen O’Kane Explains How

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

Welcome to The Life of Bryony Where we explore life’s messy, beautiful, and challenging moments. MY GUEST THIS WEEK: OWEN O’KANE This week, I’m joined by Owen O’Kane—psychotherapist, bestselling author, and former NHS clinical lead for mental health. His new book, Addicted to Anxiety, challenges everything we think we know about anxiety, arguing that it’s not just a feeling we experience, but a habit we’ve learned—and can unlearn. We talk about how anxiety isn’t just a mental state but a pattern of behaviour, how we unknowingly fuel it in our daily lives, and why so many of us are resistant to letting it go. Owen opens up about his own childhood growing up in Northern Ireland during the Troubles, the trauma that shaped his anxious self, and how he’s learned to navigate life without abandoning the most frightened parts of himself. We explore why we cling to our fears, how we mistake overthinking for problem-solving, and why true freedom from anxiety comes from sitting with discomfort rather than running from it. If you’ve ever struggled with spiralling thoughts, panic, or that constant feeling of “what if?”—this episode will change the way you see anxiety. LET’S STAY IN TOUCH 🗣️ Got something to share? Text or send a voice note on 07796657512—just start your message with LOB. 💬 Use the WhatsApp shortcut: Click here. 📧 Prefer email? Drop me a line at [e-mail]. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone who might find Owen’s insights helpful—it really makes a difference! Bryony xx BOOKS DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE 📚 Addicted to Anxiety by Owen O’Kane A groundbreaking book that redefines anxiety as an addictive process—and offers a way out. Buy from Waterstones SOME GREAT RESOURCES 🧠 Mind UK – Mental health support and information: www.mind.org.uk | Call 0300 123 3393 or text 86463 💭 Anxiety UK – Support and resources for anxiety and panic: www.anxietyuk.org.uk CREDITS 🎙️ Presenter: Bryony Gordon 🎙️ Guest: Owen O’Kane 🎧 Content Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan 🎥 Audio & Video Editor: Luke Shelley 📢 Executive Producer: Mike Wooller A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is the Life of Briony, the podcast where we explore life's messier moments, and only the messy ones. Today, I'm joined by psychotherapist, bestselling author, and former NHS clinical lead for mental health, Owen O'Kane. Owen's just released a groundbreaking book called Addicted to Anxiety, which completely challenges the way we think about this most common problem.

He claims that this is a habit that we learn and that we can unlearn. You go onto the phones and you know, That's it. Mood drops, anxiety increases, brain chemistry changes. Nothing good happens. MRI scans change. So why do we do it?

Because we're trying to avoid feeling. My chat with Owen O'Kane coming right up after this. ["Sky's Got a Beautiful World"] Hello, Producer Jonathan. Hello, presenter Bryony. How are you? I'm good. I'm just back from a relaxing week at Centre Parks.

I'm not going to say that. I was not relaxing in any way, shape or form. Centre Parks during February half-term is... It's a type of jury duty for parents, isn't it? That is exactly what it is. And I feel also it costs a fortune. Is that because there's really no alternative in the UK? I don't know. Like it does.

They do. I do always think a government should go to centre parks and see how they've they've just got everything right. OK. Is that military precision? So I'm just back from that and actually came back feeling highly anxious. That's not good. Do you know where that was coming from? I think it was just being under a giant dome in a forest. Surrounded by kids. Surrounded by tiny children.

And I was feeling anxious. And then I had the conversation that everyone's about to hear. With Owen. Oh, so he's written this book, which sort of asks us to question our relationship with anxiety and the part that we play with it and how we engage with it. He made me cry. He was talking about his own experiences as a little boy growing up in Northern Ireland during the troubles and how he learned to sleep with his fingers in his ears because

of bombs and all sorts of things going off outside and his uncle was killed. You'll hear all of this. And I don't know what, like sometimes you have conversations that I think this is the sign of a good conversation where, you know, we're recording this for a podcast, we're also filming it and there's lights and there's all sorts of stuff and there's equipment all around us. But the sign of a good conversation for me is where all the equipment sort of fades into the background and you just connect. I felt deeply moved by this conversation with Owen and he really made me cry. He really made me cry.

I'm teary talking about it again now. You had a vulnerable moment. I did feel like I could properly have had like a proper head clutching, weep session if it weren't for the fact that I would then not be able to interview him. And I think there's two ways to kind of listen to this as well. You can kind of listen to it in a detached, oh, he's giving us some information way or the way I think you reacted to it, which is a really healthy natural way, which is to really kind of like sit with what he's saying and take it on board and see how it sits with you personally.

Yeah. And I think this is all about sitting with difficult feelings, which is something that I naturally we all find very hard to do. And we're all trying to escape from doing. And I think once you've listened to the episode, maybe if you can just like find some time in your day to just allow yourself to be, you know, and to feel what you're feeling, even if it's horrible, just time it, give yourself five minutes to be with the most horrible part of yourself. And then, you know, don't abandon that part of yourself. I think it's really important because we are all kind of rushing around

and addicted to anxiety as Owen suggests in his book. But I think also we are kind of addicted to trying to avoid feeling. So this, I think, anyway, I'm still a bit kind of like flustered from the conversation with Owen and a bit emotional from it and I probably have mascara all down my face. You know you've kept it quite well. Good. Yeah you're losing it on the inside but the outside is. This may not have the same effect on people as as it did on me but um wow. people as it did on me, but wow. If you're enjoying today's episode, why not make this a regular thing? Don't overthink

it. Hit follow. Let's keep the conversation going. Owen, O'Kane. Hello. Welcome. Thank you. Owen, O'Kane, welcome to the life of Briny. You are my first guest to come bearing a gift. And I'm going to open it up here. It's cake. I feel, oh my god, that looks just... I'm going to show it to the camera. Look. I mean, this sounds like an art for them, but it is like the best.

The best. It is like the best. The way to my heart is cake. It is. And future guests who might be watching or listening. Well, you're going to get cake all the time. Do feel free to bring... It's mandatory.

It's mandatory. You've got to bring cake. I kind of want to start eating it now, like just tearing it up and being like, come on. You'll have a massive baked sugar heart and then then we'll crash then we'll have a crash and we'll get you know and I and it might lead to some anxiety spirals we don't want that because sugar can be you know things contradicting my own advice actually yeah there you go anyway, thank you. You're welcome. So Owen, addicted to anxiety. Now this is, this I find is like quite a revolutionary game changing idea that some people might not like.

I had someone have a go at me earlier. Did they? Two people, well not have a go at me, I had a journalist earlier be lightly spiky in the interview. Why? About addiction and can it be addiction? Right. And then I had someone do a really nice review for me saying they love the book, but it didn't represent 12 step program addiction, which of course it was never

meant to. Yeah. And I was very aware from day one that I'm conceptualizing this in the framework of addiction, but I say from like the get one that I'm conceptualizing this in the framework of addiction, but I say from like the get-go, I'm not saying that anxiety is the addiction, I'm saying the process of anxiety, how we get hooked into the process of anxiety is the problem. Is addictive. It's addictive, and it is. I mean, I know that as someone who suffered anxiety, and I know from

hundreds of clients, there is an addictive component to and no one's, no one's talked about it. Well, because also I think what people think of as people think that if you become addicted to something, it's something that you, you know, initially you like doing. Yeah. Right. So if we think of drugs and alcohol and sex or gambling, you know, initially there's a buzz that you get out of it.

And I think it's quite hard for people to go, oh, but I get it. I totally understand it because I remember a therapist explaining to me that we often find comfort in discomfort if we become used to it. So can you explain? So here's how it works and here's how I thought about it. And you're spot on, you know, with addiction, most people will get, there'll be again. So they'll feel they get high or they get their pain reduced or they can escape. So every addiction comes with a promise.

Okay. For most people. Pay off. Yeah. Yeah. But every addiction also comes with pain and suffering. Yeah. So, you know, I've never met anyone who's addicted to whatever who

has come along and said, OK, I love the addiction and I don't want to change or this doesn't come repriced out. So you always get a kind of love hate relationship with the addiction. Now, here's the interesting thing with anxiety. Most people with anxiety will come along and they will say, I fucking hate this feeling or I wish I didn't have it or I'm overwhelmed. So they'll talk about the negative aspects of anxiety. But then when you start to work with them clinically and you're trying to move them away from the anxiety, they get really resistant. They don't want to let it go.

And this is, I spotted it years ago as running a clinical group in the NHS, group of really, really chronic anxiety sufferers. They've been everywhere. My psychiatrist I was working with at the time said, I want you to set up a group. These are people who have tried everything. They're not recovering. I want you to see what you can do. So anyway, I set up this group and about eight weeks in, there were about 16 of them in total. I noticed they were all beginning to improve. Like week by week, there was more banter in the group. They were getting lighter.

You could just see they were improving. And on week eight of this program, I fed back to them. I said, God, I notice there's a real difference in the room. You all seem lighter. And you wouldn't have heard a pin drop. They all just went quiet. And then one of them piped up and said, well, that makes me feel a bit anxious.

Right. The fact that I pointed out the improvement. And then this one guy who was a previous coke addict then joked, and he was kind of a bit of a lad and he said, fucking hell, I thought dropping drugs was difficult, but this stuff's addictive. It's really hard to let this go. And everyone in the group laughed. So they all got what he was saying about the addictive component of it. And interestingly, immediately I thought,

there is an addictive component to this because, you know, the thoughts, the emotions, the physiological sensations that anxiety brings, they all come in with a promise of safety and security. And relief. And protection. So why would you let that go if you've invested in something and it's not that it's never about fault or blame or shaming anybody. But I guess I could have done a really fluffy heal your anxiety in a day or some bullshit false concept.

And when I knew I was going to do an anxiety book, I thought, no, I really want this to be, I want it to be the book I wish someone had given to me in my 20s. Right. When I was kind of in the thick of anxiety and I didn't know what it meant. So let's, can we go to your 20s? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a long time ago. Let's talk about that a little bit.

You grew up in Northern Ireland during the Troubles. I mean literally in the thick of it. I grew up in a place called Ardoyne which was like, there are two roads called the Shankle Road and the Falls Road and we were literally sandwiched in between. And it was just, I mean, I don't even know what to say about it really, I mean it was proper, it was awful. Well tell us about it because I, you know, I, how old are you? Now 55. 55, right, so you're about 10 years younger, older than me. But I remember also growing up and

wasn't in the thick of it, but like I remember that, you know, lots of talks, talk the IRA, I remember lots of bombs and you know, but this was the other sort of, you know, actually living in the centre of... Yeah, this was, I mean, I was born in... Paramilitary. ...69. Yeah, and it started then. So it literally kicked off. The summer I was born is when the trouble started. And my mum would recount stories about, you know, the house being burnt down and having to run and, you know, having to cover our mouths because we were screaming,

you know, because they didn't want to know we were in the house and all of this kind of crazy stuff that you would think... If you were telling the story out loud, it sounds highly exaggerated. But they would tell these stories like they were normal everyday things. And I do remember the bombs going off. I remember seeing awful stuff. My mum's brother got killed during the troubles. So this was a kind of constant everyday. You were Catholic. Yeah, I was Catholic. So to explain to someone, because it sounds, it sounds ridiculous, but to explain the troubles

to people that may not know because... It was just basically Catholic Protestants. So the Catholics in Ireland believe that they're Irish and the Protestants by and large believe that they're British because Northern Ireland's governed by the UK. So you've had this age old conflict between both that has improved, but there's still elements of it that go on. Even to this day. To this day. But during that time, I mean, it was proper atrocities regularly. And I guess that was the point really that I got very used to the orphaness and the every news headline was just another horror story.

So hang on a second. So how old were you when your uncle was killed? 12. Right. And do you remember? Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Oh, I can remember most of the stuff. I can remember I would sleep at night and to this day I can't sleep without earplugs to this day. Really? Yeah. I mean, no, we were on holiday a few years ago and I forgot my earplugs. We were in South Africa or something a few years back and I got there and I went, shit, I forgot my earplugs and we were on safari so I couldn't get them. And because I'd learned to sleep

with my fingers on my ears to block out the noise, it just became this habit where to this day it's still a... So blocking out the noise, so let's talk about, do you mind going back there? Because I don't want to re-traumatise you. No, not at all. I mean, Christ, I've worked through it on my own throughout. I mean, it was just a, you know, for a number of years, it was a battleground. So that meant there were constant riots, buses been burned, cars hijacked. I mean, regularly someone being killed of some description, lots of, I mean, look, this probably, this is a horrible story,

but it probably puts it into context. So I can remember one day being at primary school. So I was probably 11 at that point. And I can remember a car bomb going off in my primary school, not in the school, but just outside the school. And people had been blown up and killed. And the kids all automatically ran to the window to see what had happened. And I can remember the teachers pulling us back because there were body parts in the playground. Now, that's just one of the awful stories, but there were a number of moments like that where it was like, you know, and I think most people growing up in that generation

will have memories of seeing and hearing stuff that they shouldn't have seen. Yeah. That was normal for me up until probably about 17, 18. So when you were 12, are you okay to talk about your uncle? Yeah, yeah. So he was killed. He was a Catholic and milkman delivering milk. And it was just a random, they used to do these kind of random sectarian killings where it was like a Protestant would be killed. So then a Catholic would get killed.

And he was delivering milk and he was a Catholic in the wrong place at the wrong time. And he got killed and four kids and you know, you know, just to awfulness his wife was left with four kids to raise and my mom was close to him and she was, I think I remember at that point losing her for like three years after he had died. Cause she just was, you know, when someone's in the thick of grief, she was just absolutely saturated in loss. And I can remember those years, kind of she was there and doing her best, but just completely naturally distracted by what had happened. So I think every family at that time had something, you know, that it would be read, I don't want to sound in any way self-pitying because most families have

a story or a similar story. So this became very, very normal. It was your normal. Oh my God. I mean, anxiety and stuff at that point, I wouldn't even, we wouldn't have used that language. Yeah. We wouldn't even have talked about it. It was just life. So you go on and you went to school and you did all the everyday stuff. I mean, I should put in context as well. So I was, you know, a little gay kid hadn't naturally hadn't come out, but so was that going on as well? I was playing piano and stuff and, you know, my close friends were doing Irish dance and you know, it's really funny. The gay kids found each other at school.

We didn't know. I mean, again, we didn't have language for any of this, but so the piano players, the Irish dancers, I think one of them did a bit of ballet. One of them painted. So we were all doing stuff that was kind of creative, but we were kind of been targeted as well because we were different. So that was happening as well. The kids had picked up on our difference and that went on. That happened right through. So there was another kind of hyper vigilance going on there as well, apart from the everyday

stuff. There was a kind of bullying going on at school. And then to top it all off, there was being Catholic. That's why Irish Catholic and gay is like a triple threat for shame really when you put the three together. And my family were quite religious at the time. So there was a lot of good and bad and right and wrong and going to mass and the priest coming and all of that stuff. I mean, I did have a strong belief in God and stuff. I still have a strong spirituality. It's very much different to the spirituality that I had grown up. Which was punishing. Which was all very persecutory and punishing and stuff. But I went into a monastery for three years in my late teens. So I was in a monastery in Dublin from 19 until I was

22. Hang on. So how did this come about? I guess it was just, I grew up in that culture of religion and church and I used to go to church a lot. Sometimes even in my home I'd sit in the back and I think that was about fear, but it was somewhere quiet to go and it was kind of somewhere generally untouched by anything else that was happening. So I used to go there a lot and I'd sort of go in there and sit and I used to like the a lot and I'd sort of go in there and sit. And I used to like the quiet and the peacefulness. And then I just got to know people in the church and

then family were religious. I did have probably a faith that was quite strong at that point. And you know, I ended up thinking, okay, this is what I want to do. And I went into a monastery and did that for three years. And that, you. And that was a brilliant life experience. Never regret a millisecond of doing it. Met some great people, got involved in incredible projects to work for people on drugs. I worked in homeless projects. So it wasn't like locked away in a monastery. It was a really active organization of our order, their call. So, and I was out and about a lot. So you weren't just quite, you weren't, you know, Wasn't hidden away.

Meditating. No, not at all. I was very active and out and about. And then did it for about three years and then thought, I don't think I can do this for the rest of my life. And the sexuality stuff was starting to become more visible. Yeah, and I was thinking in my early 20s, I haven't done anything about this. Haven't spoken to anyone about it. I'm not really sure I should be here. And I had a brilliant director who I sat down with one day and I said, look, I think I just need to go out for a year and explore a bit. And he was brilliant.

He said, right, off you go. The door's open. You can back whenever you want. I was struggling with coming out. My parents thought they had a priest in their hands and stuff. And so then the coming out and having to go back and say, I'm not going to do it. Was, was a big disappointment for them at the time. Cause the culturally in Ireland at that point, it's a big thing to have.

A priest in the family. But anyway, I sort of knew I had the sexuality stuff lurking in the background. And here's the irony about what I do at the moment. I spent most of my early life trying to stay off radar. Right. Like genuinely, my drive and my goal was just show up, do your job, do a good job. But don't get found out. Don't get found out. Don't get, I mean, there's something about Irish culture as well as I mean, don't get too up yourself. There's something about British culture as well. Yeah, you don't want to be showing off, you don't want to be doing anything too public. So it was all sort of, you know, keep yourself quite contained. And that was kind of ingrained in my psyche. And then the book come out and the first book, you know, you know, did incredibly well, unexpectedly, I think it just kind of came in out of nowhere. And then suddenly this new career emerged where it was like, I wasn't able to do my job in the NHS anymore, clinical lead job, because I couldn't manage that and everything else that was coming

with the book. So then that kind of just, you know, one day I said, right, well, this seems to have gone well. Then I got another book deal. I thought, well, I do enjoy the talks and maybe I should look at, my goal has been over the last five years is to reach those who ordinarily wouldn't seek help. I think that's a really beautiful thing because I think there are, I certainly hear from a lot of people and I certainly feel like this, that there are some people who are, their role in life is to take this stuff, which ordinarily you only get access to if sadly now you have money or, you know, you've been led down that thing. And like this sort of spiritual psychotherapy world and bring it to a larger audience and you strike me as one of those people. Yeah, I mean, I think, look, I do think it sounds cliched, but I do think it's a massive privilege because I know what I do well, what I can do well, is I can simplify really complicated

psychological concepts and a lot of the psychobabble. I mean, in my world, there's a lot of academia, there's a lot of snobbery, there's a lot of language that I think people struggle to access or make sense of or make relevant to their life. Well the moment someone hears a word like Freudian or Jungian or disordered, disordered, you know that's a real turn off of a word. That's a fucking big turn off and yet we talk all the time about these fucking disorders which is like what the actual... Yeah. So I kind of made a decision that even though this is the world I'm from, wouldn't it be amazing if I can just kind of reach her? I mean, here's the interesting that this has been the liberating part. I'd reached a point in my career where I didn't feel had anything to prove because

I'd had a really good career. I've loved my career, all of it. So it kind of felt like, wouldn't it be great to put all this together using not only my own story, but the experience in palliative care and my psychology training. Wouldn't it be great to just kind of put that all together and just share what I know makes life more manageable and what eases suffering? And I don't claim to have all the answers, but that's kind of been my, it feels like that's been the next chapter.

Why don't I just put it all together and put it out there? It's never about doing well. I couldn't give a shit to be quite honest. When it comes to the kind of the commercial aspect of how many numbers or how profiled you are or how, I mean I've been in meetings where people have sat in front of me talking about how they can make me more relevant. You're in a room, I'm here and they're having conversations about making me more relevant, basically how can you become more famous? Yeah. And there's a, and because of the whole industry set up around numbers, fame. Data.

Everything feeds it. Everything's fed in by an algorithm of some description. And actually for me to buy into a world which is about numbers, algorithms, fame, reputation, it just defies the ethos of the work. And it's a really interesting conversation to have actually, Oren, because so much of this stuff now is, when I go on my social media, it's people trying to almost seek validation, trying to get the algorithm to work for them and all of this stuff. And I'm like, I've had that experience as a mental health campaign

or just a writer who's entered up in this world where, yeah, you hear people go, the numbers, oh, that does really well, that's trending, the algorithm. And I want to go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, can we just step back for a moment? And let's talk about human stories and human things and how we can help humans because we get far too caught up with

sort of data, numbers. And pathologies in them, which I think is another problem. So let's talk about this because this all feeds very nicely, like an algorithm into the book, Addicted to Anxiety, I can really viscerally see as a conventional addict, an alcoholic and drug addict in recovery, I can see that we have process, you know, the process addictions which you speak about, and I can see how the process of anxiety is addictive. And at first glimpse, you might go, well, hang on, anxiety is awful. But the payoff at the end of it, which I can think back to as a little girl, where I would

ruminate and I would try and think myself out of a problem. Am I a bad person? Am I a bad person? And then when I got the reassurance, the relief was so huge, like it's like a drug. Like taking cocaine. And actually I can see how that process in itself does become, and you think that's the way out of the problem. Of course you do. And because the mind will create a story, the mind with the anxious brain will always create stories. Yeah. And it will look for predictability,

it will look for outcomes, it will aim to do, you know, even though the anxious brain, you know, like for any anyone who struggles with anxiety, they will know what that sounds like. The what ifs, the what if, what are all the intrusive thoughts or the feeling that like you're not in control. So the brain will just constantly. The what ifs. Yeah, the what ifs. And the brain will just create story after story until it feels like, OK,

will this resolve it? Would that be better? Should you not do that? Would it be okay to avoid that? Maybe you shouldn't go there. Maybe you shouldn't do that. What if you don't do that? What if...

So the brain will just create story after story. And what most people do is they get hooked on the stories and they think, okay, I mean, I don't think I've ever met a client in my entire career when they first come in who hasn't taken their thoughts very, very seriously. They all talk about these thoughts very seriously and they talk about them 100% as if they're a fact. Okay, let's get into this because I think there will be people listening or watching who will be blown away by the notion that thinking and thoughts is an absolute fool's errand because I always thought, I can think myself out of any problem. No, no, no, I'm

thinking myself into problems and my thoughts are not facts. They're not at all. I mean, look, you can have functional thoughts. I mean, so like, I don't know, say you were planning the party or something or moving house or something anyway, but you know, if you were doing something that you think, okay, I really do need it or say today you were planning the pod, okay, you might have thought, okay, I need to think about this and I wonder what we're going to talk about and what the structure will be like. So you'll functionally think. And that's, you know, it's very, very normal or you might have- That's useful. That's useful. Yeah, it's functional thinking or you might say, for know, it's very, very normal. Or you might have... That's useful. That's useful. Yes.

So it's functional thinking. Or you might say, for example, there was something in your life and you think, okay, I need to work at it and I need to make a decision what I want to do about that. So we're not saying that thought is wrong and that it shouldn't happen. Stop thinking. So functional thinking is absolutely part of the human condition, but there's a huge difference between that and anxious thinking. And we all know when we've gone into that mode, because not only are we aware of the

spiral in the mind, but the body will then communicate, you know, most of us will feel that edginess, that these kind of sudden shifts that go on within the body will then notice that anxiety doesn't come alone. That'll bring these other feelings that will move in and out with it. So you get this whole catalog of changes that go on and most of us will know immediately, okay, I've slipped in the anxious mode or I've slipped into worry mode. But the challenge for most people is that rather than just see it conceptually and broadly, like, all right, OK, I'm triggered or I'm in an anxious zone at the moment, or my kind of

protective self, my anxious self has moved zone at the moment or my kind of protective self, my anxious self has moved in at the moment. What most people do is they go for the detail, they go for the kind of microscopic detail of the thought. Why did I have that thought? What does that mean? What could that mean? What does that say about me? So they start to break down the thought and overanalyze it and digest it like it has some significant meaning when actually more than often it has none whatsoever and then they then start to kind of monitor oh god I've got this knot in my stomach again. This resonates so well. Honestly this is a brilliant story I've got to tell you this so a couple of weeks ago I had a client anxious for years doing brilliant

end therapy she sat down anyway. She looked great. She sounded great. And she came in full of good news, you know, life is good. She was doing stuff. She was kind of really back on it again. And she said, she said, the weirdest thing happened to me the other morning. I sat on the edge of the bed. I got up and I sat on the edge of the bed. And for the first time in four years, I didn't have a knot in my stomach. It had gone. And then she just went really quiet. And I said, God, amazing. And then there was this like 10 second silence. And then she went, there's a butt.

And she said, then I started to worry where the feeling had gone. Because she was like, what happens without this physiological angst that I feel in my stomach? And the minute she said it, I went, I'm so fucking glad I've done this book because these are stories that I hear every day of the week. We become expectant, we become dependent, we look out for the...

Okay, it makes so much sense Owen, and I'm pretty sure people listening, watching, will know what you're talking about. When I was a little girl, my mum used to say to me, you worry when you have nothing to worry about. And it's true. And certainly in my 20s was the first time I became aware of this kind of this notion that if I wasn't worrying, then something bad might happen. Yeah, yeah, I get it. My worry was very helpful when I was younger.

Yeah. Because to worry and be on guard and to be on watch was actually a really important part of staying safe. Yeah. That kind of little kid growing up in Belfast, who was not only all of the violence and all of that stuff and the troubles, but it was also about being bullied and the church and good and bad and right and wrong. So I sort of had to be in this hyper-vigilant, on guard state. So it was survival mode, but actually the reality was survival.

So actually, I think that is the really useful purpose for me when I was younger. When I got older and I left and I started to build my own life, what I didn't realize was, and it took a while for the coin to drop was that I'd carried that version of myself with me and I had never updated it. And it wasn't actually that useful anymore? I hadn't updated my nervous system that actually it's okay now. And I think that's what I see with a lot of people here are anxious. So they are currently in this state of alarm and they've never

updated their nervous system. They see, I often talk about the anxious self. I don't think it's ever helpful to think about anxiety in itself just as a process. It's not like treating the heart, the kidney, a lung. The anxious self is nuanced. I often say it's like anxiety is a frightened part of you and every human being has a frightened part of them that exists within them and it will make itself known either through thought, emotions in the body, behaviours. It will make its presence very known. But every client I work with, rather than get too technical with them or get too caught up in the

cognitions and the body and the breath work and all of that stuff, I get every client first session, particularly if it's Angadie, and I get them to sit down. And this is going to sound a bit woo-woo for me. And the clients- We love a bit of woo woo. Yeah. But for me, I'm not, I'm not terribly woo woo, if I'm being honest. But I know clients who come are not expecting woo woo. And then I think I throw them a bit and I get them to think about their anxious self set beside them for the first time. And most people you'd be gobsmacked at the reactions.

They either get emotional, they either get uneasy about that part of self, and I get them to visualize it in whatever way they want, to say, I want you to imagine your anxious self sat alongside you at the minute, and I want you to do nothing, but I just want you to let that part of self sit with you for a moment.

And then you'd be, honestly, every single time, there's a big emotional reaction. Well, even just you saying that to me, I'm feeling quite, in fact, the whole time I've been talking to you, I felt quite emotional. Yeah, because that part of self gets, it gets, you know, it gets seen maybe for the first time. Well, can we, can we maybe suggest this?

I mean, maybe while listening to a podcast isn't a good time for people at home or wherever they are to be doing that. But it is a good thing to think about maybe at a later time when you have moment to yourself to sit with your anxious self and see what comes up for you. You know, I'd encourage people to take that moment and do it certainly when it's quiet and you're not distracted or anything. But here's the thing, most people, when you think about how they react to their anxious self, spend most of their lives either trying to reject it, deny it, push it down, get rid of it. And my argument is

that when you do that, what you're doing is you're abandoning a part of self. So why would you abandon part of self? So I think people get emotional about it is because I'm sorry, I didn't. No, it's okay. I'm just sitting here thinking about, um, like I was thinking about my anxious self and it's like, she's quite, um, like little, she's very little and I feel really sad for her and I want to look after her. Yeah. No, I don't apologize. And I'm, I'm very much also much also, and this is a Frank podcast, I'm now crying.

I'm feeling very anxious at the moment. Who knows why? As I say, these are feelings that come and they go and they, but the last few days, I've really felt that kind of almost physical. Yeah, yeah, I get it. I haven't felt since of almost physical. I haven't felt since like I was in active addiction where I would get those come downy like almost horrible feelings and I don't know why that is. And maybe there's lots of things going on in the background, you know, grief or sorts of things and that maybe that's just it's just part of the process and you've got to allow it. But if you don't mind me, I mean, if you don't mind me asking, I mean, if you asked that part of self what it needs from part of the process and you've got to allow it. But if you don't mind me, I mean, if you don't mind me asking, I mean, if you ask that part of self what it needs from you at the minute, what do you think it would say?

I think that part of me needs to kind of just like sit and be and not just, I don't know, be like looked after, be nurtured. Yeah. And yeah, sorry. It's not embarrassing. It's just, um, that's why I bring cake. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's like a lot of, um, like actually we launched this podcast, what, six months ago, maybe, I don't know, six months ago and launched it around the time that a dear friend of mine died, which I've mentioned a couple of times and I find that the grief of that like comes in sort of waves and you can be okay with it and I was with a family, their family last week and you know and I think it's sort of just it ebbs and it flows and you know.

But it's a beautiful way you've described it because actually if you salv. But it's a beautiful way you've described it, because actually, if you salvage what you can from this here, you know, you could say, even though it's uncomfortable and these feelings are never easy to be around, if you're able to kind of be with that part of self, actually, there's a real clear message in, OK, what made the anxiety be trying to communicate? You know, what messages in there perhaps about needing to adjust, needing to tweak, needing to tweak,

needing to look after yourself more? Because it always, always, always, the anxious self, if you're brave enough to go towards it. And this is what I talk about in the earlier part of the book. You know, it's about, you know, you never, ever, ever abandon that part of self. You unapologetically, you go towards it. It's probably one of the parts that gets abandoned most. Yeah. So it's kind of like, but it's the part that is screaming loudly, no, no, no, I

need you here. Is that part of you that's scared that needs you to support it? Yeah. I feel like if I was talking to it, it's like it needs to slow down a bit. And, you know, there's like a lot has happened in the last six months and I feel very lucky to be here and all of that. And then, but I, I feel, lucky to be here and all of that and but I feel yeah it's like, can we just now, can we just breathe and just focus on what we need to do.

So that can be, it's serving a useful purpose for you then and if you look at you know if you kind of went down the more addictive to anxiety route if you kind of then start to buy into that, the pattern could be okay I'm going to now try and find my way out of this. I'm going to try and think my way out of these feelings. I don't like what I'm feeling here, so I'm going to try and find a way to digress, run from these, suppress, push away in some way, or I'm going to behave in a way that kind of helps you move through this quickly so the behaviors then may become, I don't know, reassurance, seeking avoidance, overcompensating, working way too much.

So you then immediately, for most people, what they'll do is when the discomfort arrives, they'll then say, okay, how can I not feel this as strong as I do? So they'll then fall into the kind of shorter term. Don't want to feel this, how can I not feel it? But then what they do is they end up feeding the longer term maintenance. So it just goes on for longer. You get these cycles, but then at the same time,

when you then start to challenge people about, okay, what would it be like to be with the anxiety? What would it be like not to run? What would it be like not to overthink? What would it be like not to fall into the old traps that you normally go. Most people initially will get really resistant and think, no, no, no, that's not what I do. That's not how I manage it. So they can almost loop back into the original pattern.

And this is kind of where I get emphatic about the addictive component to this, as most people will repeat the loops. I mean, I said to someone the other day, probably 99.9% of people that I see in therapy, they'll come in and they'll sit down and regardless of what the problem is or what the challenge is, they will sit down and they will talk about life been difficult and struggle and peeing and heartache and all the rest of it. And they will always talk about the reason for that being life. It's because of my childhood, it's because of my husband, my wife, whatever the context might be.

I've never had anyone sit down and say, it's because of how I'm managing this. And I think this is where the conversation gets challenging because, of course, life and trauma and background and loss and all of these things, massive, massive, massive contributory factors. But in my experience, most people suffering predominantly is how they treat themselves and how they then abandon parts of self. And that's a hard conversation to have because then that means ownership. And it means that you can't run anymore. Yeah. And that for most people, because it's easier.

I mean, we're all human at the end of the day. It's fucking so much easier to say I'm having a really shit time and here's why I'm having a shit time. What, should I just do it? Yeah, no, but it's fucking so much easier to say I'm having a really shit time and here's why I'm having a shit time. Cause what should I just do? Yeah, no, but, but it's understandable. It's interesting, but you're right. But the thing is life happens, you know, like this is one of the things we learn

in a recovery life on life's terms, you know, and it's always, and if we're lucky, it'll keep happening, it'll keep happening, you know, we may not like it. And actually it's how do I manage that? And when you were just talking then, it's like, wow, I can see quite clearly how I abandon myself in an attempt at managing. And my way of trying to manage anxiety is to sort of go, right, well, I'm going to work much harder, and I'm going to get validation from, well, I'm going to work much harder and I'm going to get validation from that and I'm going to, and I'm going to succeed. I'm going to, you know, and I'm not going to stop. I'm not going to stop and sit with the feeling that I'm trying to avoid, which is grief

or overwhelm or whatever. I'm just going to keep going and keep pleasing people. And, No, but you did stop. You did allow yourself to stop there and feel it. And I think that's where the power is. Because you could feel almost the immediate relief, couldn't you? Like, it's almost like a, you know, a gasket of like, oh my God, this is real. This is exactly where you need to be. So whatever the feelings are, whether it's a sadness or the loss or the exhaustion or whatever it is,

that's 100% where you need to be. There's no need to run from that. You know, that's the part of you that needs you at the moment. And I think, you know, if I'm working with people therapeutically, it's always, no, no, no, we're going to stay here. That doesn't mean that we're going to dwell or we're going to ruin it, but we're going to stay here because we're not going to, we're not going to keep running. And of course there's natural resistance at first and people will kind of, oh God,

now that one other, you know, but it's resistance at first and people will kind of go, oh, God, now they want it. You know, but it's kind of like once people learn the strength, they've just been able to be there and to be with it, then they're less frightened. Wow. Does that make sense? It does. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm just sitting here in like in loads of tears and maybe, but that's probably what I needed today. I wanted to ask you, because I think this is really interesting, the way that we avoid sitting in it, right? And the little ways that we feed our addiction to anxiety every day. So you talk about, you just write really beautifully about updating our nervous systems. Okay. So we still have the nervous systems from our childhoods or from our traumatic experiences. I feel like the way we live our lives nowadays is very much our nervous system. It's kind of constantly setting our nervous systems alight. And you talk about this in the book about the little ways we don't even realize we're

doing it. Can you talk a bit about that? about the little ways we don't even realize we're doing it. Can you talk a bit about that? How people might in their daily life start to kind of... I think we're primarily hardwired. And particularly, look, if people have experienced adversity or trauma or difficult upbringings or whatever the context might be, the reality is, I mean, I can't say this strongly enough. If you're struggling today, whether that's anxiety, mood, health anxiety, OCD, it doesn't matter for me, panic disorder, if you're struggling, it probably couldn't be any other way based on your experience.

And I think that's a really strong place to start because most people go the other way and they think, oh, fucking hell, why is this happening to me? I wish I wasn't feeling that way. Other people aren't feeling that all of that. Why can't I handle it? Was actually no, it couldn't be any other way because experientially, you know, whatever happened,

this is now how you're primarily hardwired. This is how you're set up. And there was probably a time and a place where that model worked for you and probably had to be there. So that kind of survival element was probably the reason you're here today and still alive and flourishing. The same for all of us, you know, that was a really useful thing.

So we don't throw it out of the water or abandon it and say, oh my God. So what we do is we say, OK, this does need updating. And I can now learn to navigate my life in a very, very different way. So when I'm working with people, you'll spot all of the stuff and you'll spot what they'll do. So, you know, they'll scroll. I mean, scrolling, you know, every study out there tells us that, you know, like you go on to the phones and, you know, that's it. Mood drops, anxiety increases, brain chemistry changes, MRI scans change. So why do we do it? Because we're trying to avoid feeling.

I think a lot of the time what we're trying to do is we're trying to avoid, we're trying to digress, we're trying to distract, we're trying not to be present. You know, and I think most struggle is about people either they're either clinging to the old stuff. You know, it's just like fucking hell, it was awful, it was terrible. And I can't let it go. Or they resist what's coming next. They say, that's too scary, or I'm not sure about that, or I don't know what that

looks like. I mean, anxiety, by definition, is an intolerance of uncertainty. But you could be doing both at the same time, could you? Resisting the stuff that's coming by clinging onto what's happening in the world. And they can feed into each other. And so you can kind of, people can do this dance around being everywhere but present in their life, which is like, God, what's it like just to turn up and be here and allow it to be? And I think it's a recognition, okay, what might be the things that are part of your everyday life? You know, is it the scrolling, is it the food, is it the drinking, is it the distractions, is it the sex, is it the... All of it. Self-deprecation. All of the stuff that we...

Self-deprecation, you know, that kind of self-talk. You know, that I'm shit, I'm rubbish, I'm not good enough, everyone's better. I mean, I say this every conversation I have, but most people would never speak to another human being the way they speak to themselves. No, absolutely not. They just wouldn't. And that for me is a non-negotiable in therapy. You know, that shit stops pretty soon on. Right. You have to call your, you have to

notice. I think you have to be able to call yourself out in that pretty quickly and say, actually, that's just a basic fundamental. So when you find yourself going, oh, I'm so rubbish, or I'm so crap at this, or, you, you know, I don't do things right. It's like, stop. Well, if I watch people do that, I'll say, okay, right. Fair enough. I'll hear you, but you need to help me understand where the evidence is to support that. Okay.

You know, where you do okay. Show me what is deplorable about you as a human being. Tell me what it is about you that's disgusting. Why you shit. Tell me why you're worthless. Help me understand that and I'll listen to you. And then of course you watch people scramble and they, they, they, they're trying to come up with stuff and then they've given you all of this other

information about their lives, which is the complete opposite of being hopeless or worthless or deplorable or disgusting, whatever they've talked about. And you say, God, I'm hearing you tell me all this here, but what about all of this other stuff? What about these things that you've done? What about these achievements? What about what you've survived? What about the people who are in your life? So then you can normally extract enough from people you say, actually, are you sure this is the truth? Because you know, we all do this. And I think it's part of the human condition. We can get attached to a story.

Yeah. And we can believe that story to be true. And sometimes it can be very comfortable to kind of attach to that old story, which is quite limited and actually keeps you in a very, very safe place. Well, if I believe I'm shit and I'm rubbish and I'm not good enough, well, that actually,

that creates a real limit to my ceiling on life and where I can go. Do you often meet clients who haven't been given permission in their life to be happy? They don't actually realize they are allowed to live a life where they are not worrying. I'm laughing at this here because I've joked about this before. I mean, I think, you know, I don't mind you offend any Catholics, but my mate joked with me years ago when he said, on your tombstone, we're going to put, if it feels good, it must be bad. Yeah. I get sometimes quite anxious when things are going really well. Something must be about

to go wrong. I'm almost expecting, but there must be something around the corner. I heard someone say recently that one of the most difficult emotions to be around is joy, because there's a fear of what comes next. I'm wearing a t-shirt that says more joy. I have heard this before, right, that the thing we are scared of is not failure, it's success. We're not scared of our darkness, it's actually our light and dazzling at full beam. Shall I tell you something really, this is important to be honest about this, so from from January really I've been involved in, you know what it's like when the books coming out, you're doing all the

interviews and you want it to do well and you've had books that have done well previously, there's this kind of background pressure for them to continue to do well and not at a kind of personal ambition point of view, but you want the work to get out there and you want it to reach as many people as possible. So there is that sort of drive for things to go well. But over the last couple of months, I've had the book coming out and I've been involved in a project, which I can't really say too much about at the minute, but I've been involved in this TV project and it's been a lot of work and it's been intense, but it's been brilliant. But I noticed a couple of weeks ago though, that, you know, my own threat

mechanisms were really elevated. It was just like somebody on the 1st of January had switched them on because it was like, okay, you've got a boot coming out and you're involved in this big project and they're coming this year. And they're all coming this year and they're all public and they're all watchable and they're all things that people can talk about, criticize, judge. And then immediately, the minute I can just allow myself to stop and be with it, it just immediately feeds into my story.

So my anxious self will come out and say, okay, are you sure? Because you're stepping out into an arena where you're going to get judged, criticized, rejected potentially. And are you sure you'd want that? Because that's happened before. Do we want to go back there? So when you break it down, you think, okay, the anxious self has come out really helpfully, almost to kind of keep an eye that this is the right thing to do. Is it safe? Now, if I listened to that anxiety, then this book wouldn't have come out. I wouldn't be here.

We wouldn't be having this conversation today. And I wouldn't have done this project because it would have been a fear driven response and the anxiety would have won. So I guess that is the whole, this is what this work is all about is kind of like, if you, you know, I'd say to anybody listening, if you're aware of that narrative that goes on in your head, whatever the context may be, it's about know that that's a story that your anxious self is creating as a means of keeping you safe and protecting you. That's all.

But you also have the choice now to go back and think, actually, you know, this is great that you've pointed out the potential pitfalls or challenges. And that's good. I'm aware of them. But actually, I know better now and I can plow forward and I can do this and I can be courageous and I can take risk. I can transcend all of the fear. And I guess I think that's a dance that most of us do. When we've had adversity, we can, I don't think there's ever any getting rid of anxiety.

I don't believe that. I don't think there is ever a point when we're completely sorted and worked out. I think that's a load of bullshit. I get really annoyed when I hear people promising that. I think we're all navigating our way through and there are periods about like, you know, you're going through a period at the moment where there's stuff going on for you. That's absolutely how it should be. And we kind of do this dance with life at different

points and we work out how do I navigate this? How do I look after myself? What are the decisions that serve me well at the moment? As opposed to go in the opposite direction. And I find that really comforting to know that it's just a case of knowing what the landscape looks like and how I adjust and how I go a different route than what I would have gone traditionally. Does that make sense? Yeah, don't abandon your anxious self. Yeah, which I would have done in my early 20s.

Which I 100% would have done in my early 20s and did it very successfully. Yeah, yeah, well. That's the thing for all of us, any of us who understand the no anxiety is, I mean, we are the experts at bullshitting ourselves. I'm convincing ourselves that we're right, you know, because often anxiety recovery or breakthroughs feel counterintuitive in the short term.

They feel frightening. Well, they just feel frightening, but they also feel like, what? I mean, why would I do that? Why would I let go of that? Why would I want to feel this stuff that feels really hard? So it's kind of like when you're working with people, it's like, oh my God, you're asking me to do the total opposite of what I normally do.

But then my argument always is, but you're here and you're in the room in front of me. So if your model were working, then you wouldn't be here. Yeah. Your best thing in the school. You're here. I win. Owen O'Kane, you do win. Thank you so much. Thank you. A huge thank you to Owen for his insight and clarity today. His book, Addicted to Anxiety, is a massive game changer, whether you're someone who

constantly overthinks, feels completely trapped in anxiety loops, or just wants to understand how to quieten down your brain a little bit more. If this conversation resonated with you, please send it to a friend, especially someone who brain a little bit more.