The Life Of Bryony - 51. Calum Scott: “Therapy Saved My Life”

Episode Date: March 31, 2025

QUICK SURVEY – TELL US WHAT YOU LIKE (PRETTY PLEASE): We’re running a short survey to get to know you better—so we can keep making the kind of episodes you actually want to hear. Takes 2 mins, promise: https://ex-plorsurvey.com/survey/selfserve/550/g517/250305?list=3 MY GUEST THIS WEEK: CALUM SCOTT This week, I’m joined by singer, songwriter and mental health advocate Calum Scott. You might know him from Britain’s Got Talent, but behind that viral moment is a powerful story of shame, self-worth, and survival. Calum opens up about coming out at 12, living with body dysmorphia, and how therapy—and his mum—helped him through his darkest moments. We talk about social media, self-acceptance, and what it meant to sing with Take That for the King. If you’ve ever felt like you didn’t belong, this one’s for you. CALUM’S NEW MUSIC – GOD KNOWS Calum’s got new music coming out on Friday 4th April. You can pre-save it here: https://calumscott.lnk.to/godknows LET’S STAY IN TOUCH 🗣 Got something to share? Text or send a voice note on 07796657512—just start your message with LOB. 💬 Use the WhatsApp shortcut: https://wa.me/447796657512?text=LOB 📧 Prefer email? Drop me a line at [e-mail]. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone who might find Calum’s story helpful—it really makes a difference! Bryony xx ⸻ HELPLINES If you’re struggling or need someone to talk to, you’re not alone. 📞 Samaritans – Call 116 123 (free, 24/7) or visit samaritans.org 📱 Shout – Text SHOUT to 85258 for free, 24/7 mental health support 💬 Mind – Call 0300 123 3393 or visit mind.org.uk for advice and support Please reach out—you matter. CREDITS 🎙 Presenter: Bryony Gordon 🎙 Guest: Calum Scott 🎧 Content Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan 🎥 Audio & Video Editor: Luke Shelley 📢 Executive Producer: Mike Wooller A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Life of Briny, the podcast where each week me and a guest talk about something that's made us feel really bad about ourselves in the hope that it helps you to feel good about yourselves. Today I'm joined by Callum Scott, singer, songwriter and mental health advocate who knows what it's like to face self-doubt, rejection and the pressure to be good enough. So you probably first saw Callum on Britain's Got Talent where his heart wrenching cover of Robin's Dancing on My Own won over the nation. But behind the success has been a journey of self-acceptance and body dysmorphia that today Callum goes into in

the most brave and extraordinary detail. I was supposed to be going into work and I was just in the car park and I just cried my eyes out and I just thought I can't keep doing this because I'm punishing myself. If I don't see somebody and speak to somebody professionally, I'm going to do something stupid. My conversation with Callum Scott coming up right after this. If you like this episode, we think you'll love this. I'm David Patrick Karakas.

On this week's Apocalypse Now, we're in Washington, DC, as I speak to a former diplomat in the Obama administration and one of America's leading defense experts. We discuss everything from the disappearance of the Democrats to the signal debacle and the future of Ukraine. Listen to Apocalypse Now wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode, we think you'll love this. Hello, I'm Richard Coles and this is The Apple and the Tree, a podcast where a parent and

an adult child have the sort of intimate and revealing conversations we all wish we could have, but somehow we don't. There was just no room in me, I didn't think, for any more love to give. Of course, I found that love is the one thing that isn't rationed. We record mostly in our guests' own homes. It's almost as if you've been invited in to share in a very real and very heartfelt conversation. That's the Apple and the Tree. It's out now, available wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, producer Jonathan. Hello, presenter Bryony. Have you, as I have and as everyone else has, been watching Adolescents? Well, we must have the same Netflix algorithm, because yes, yes I have. I think I've watched three and a half episodes of it now. It's like, it really got me right in the,

I don't know what the, yeah. So for anyone who has been living under a rock for the last couple of weeks, Adolescence is a Netflix drama starring and written by, I think, Stephen Graham, the wonderful Stephen Graham, who can do no wrong in anybody's eyes, and Ashley Walters and Erin Dougherty. And the star of it is this 13-year-old boy called Owen Cooper. Yeah, phenomenal actor. He plays a 12-year-old boy who is arrested for murder. And that's the sort of starting point.

It's very powerful. And I think the big issue, and it's an issue that is like wider in the news at the moment, which is this thing of toxic masculinity and what is happening to boys and men. And there's this kind of weird notion that boys are being left behind, or that toxic masculinity is coming through because women have taken too much. So it's like because of feminism. Women wanting to be treated with respect and like humans should not be a reason for people like Andrew Tate to behave in the way they do. There isn't a limited supply of respect. But no, but undoubtedly there is a problem because Andrew Tate is this kind of person who commands a lot of attention.

The fact that I'm even talking about him now makes me feel kind of unwell. And commands a lot of attention for a very young demographic of boys as well. And that is at the kind of heart of the show Adolescence. And I was sort of thinking about the guest that we have on today, Callum Scott, who, you know, in many ways, it's a completely different story. You know, it was kind of the 90s, noughties when he was about 12. But his story, as you will hear, is a story of a young boy who just wanted to hang out with his mates and belong. He just wanted to belong. And you know, and for him, belonging was, let's all go out to the skate park. Yeah. And things came a cropper for him when he just in total innocence and honesty told them that he thought he was gay. And that sort of started a journey where he went into deep self loathing.

Yeah. Because it was like, it was a form of rejection because he didn't fit the mold. So often young people are made to feel defined by their sexuality, attractiveness, whatever. That impact that had on his mental health as a young boy was huge and how very unwell he was and how it almost caused him. Well, I guess the act of violence he almost carried out was on himself. And as we know, suicide is a huge problem in young men. Oh my God, number one killer? Statistic that, yeah, if you're a man under 40, the thing most likely to kill you is not a car, it's not a car accident. It's not a heart attack.

It's not drugs. It's yourself. And so these are conversations we really need to have. And I'm really grateful to Callum for coming in and sort of just opening his heart really in a way that I know he hasn't done fully before. You two got on like a little house on fire as well. I think you've made a new pop star friend, Bryony Gordon.

What do you think? I mean, I don't have any pop star friends. So got it. We've got I think we've got one. Like a new one. Like if I had lots of pop star friends. Oh, actually, I do have a friend who's a who was a pop star. There you go.

In the 90s, whose poster I had on my bedroom wall. Yeah. Who is now a friend. in the 90s, whose poster I had on my bedroom wall, who is now a friend. And actually, I'm gonna get him on the podcast soon. So Callum's your second pop star boyfriend. Oh! Ha ha! If you're enjoying today's episode,

why not make it a regular thing? Hit follow and never miss an episode. So, Halem, thank you for coming. Thanks for having me. So, we know you from, well, I kind of feel like Britain's Got Talent. Well, that probably wasn't just the beginning. Like, I'm sure your whole life, there was a lot of work before that moment. But you know, there's been so much since, I mean it's a decade ago now, isn't it? Oh God, why did you remind me of that? Yeah, but that's too young, like you've built a solid career. But also you do a lot of work, you know, campaigning, you've worked a lot with Mind, haven't you? Mind, yeah, yeah, done some fundraising with them, we've partnered together.

I think the thing for me is, is like I get to do a job that I love and I, you know, I've made a living out of it now. And so for me, there needs to be a bigger purpose, something bigger than me to work on. And I think mental health is something that I have continued to struggle with all the way through my life. So for me, it's a very personal thing, which means that it's real, you know what I mean? I get to share real things because I think honesty breeds honesty.

Yeah. Well, that is definitely my motto. Yeah. And the motto of this podcast is what I want to do is talk about the things that have made me feel bad about myself and the hope that it helps other people feel better about themselves. It does though. It does.

It does. Cause I think I've noticed that with songwriting is that when you write a story, a song from your own personal experience or I have done in my past anyway, and then you share that with the world and then you realise that actually it's not just your story, it's millions of people around the world, whether it's mental health or suicidal thoughts or, you know, just not being able to deal with things in the right way

or whatever it is, you realise that actually millions of us around the world all go through the same stuff and all deal with it a little bit differently. But I think sharing that, it just brings a bit of light back into the world, you know, sharing your darkness. So let's, can we talk about your story? We can, we can. So you grew up in? In Hull. Hull. I mean, you grew up gay?

Yes, yeah. In Hull. I mean, you grew up gay. Yes, yeah. In Hull. Yeah, in a very working class city in the North East of England. I think for me, I had a lot of... A big journey with my sexuality. I think because I used to be in a group full of boys and we used to skateboard and BMX and it was quite... I wouldn't say masculine, but there was a lot of testosterone in the room. And so I used to hang out with those boys and then it was just when they started to

get girlfriends, I was just like, oh, this is a bit like, I want to, they're taking the attention away from us being able to skateboard and stuff. So I just wasn't interested, but I didn't know that that was me not being interested on that kind of a level. And then the more I thought about it, the more I just sort of got a little bit in my own head about it. And I was like, why don't I like girls that way? And then, yeah. And then I told them that, yeah, I think he was like, are you trying to tell me you're

gay or something? I was like, maybe. And then, and then they just all stopped talking to me. So it was, it was rough. How old were you? About 12, 13. Oh. Because by then I wasn't thinking about sex or sexual relationships or girlfriends. You know, that wasn't even part of my periphery. It was just my boys and skateboarding and you know, that was all it was really.

And your friends are your, you know, they're everything. They're your life. Yeah, they're your entire world. So it was tough. So then I ended up with a lot of internalised homophobia, went back in the closet, got a girlfriend. Can we go back to that? Because there's something extraordinarily, we're talking like the end of the nineties, you're 12 years old and we know, and there is, you know, there's a lot

of talk about toxic masculinity now, but, you know, it was just as toxic masculinity back in the, you know, at the tail end of the nineties or even more so possibly. I mean, just because the internet didn't exist doesn't mean it wasn't there. It wasn't there. Yeah, yeah. And there's something like really extraordinarily brave about you as a 12 year old boy when your mates are like, we try and tell us you're gay. And you're like, yeah, I just

fucking love that for you. I mean, it was, I wish looking back now, like I'm proud of myself. I think at the time I was just like, why I'd shattered my own world in a way. Yeah, it was tough. If the microphone wasn't in the way, I would literally come and give you a great big hug. So 12 years old, you're extraordinarily brave and you say to your skateboarder mates, maybe I am gay and they... And they're just... And look, I think... Abandon you.

Yeah. And I don't want to paint them out to be, you know, awful people because we were all young. They're 12 year old boys. Yeah. And we don't know, you know, sometimes what you don't know can scare you. And I get that. And I understand that. And I've never held it against them. But you held it against yourself. But I did, yeah. So tell me about that.

Yeah and then obviously because I told them and then because at that point I was kind of sort of abandoned, I went from being you know quite confident and quite you know life and soul to quite withdrawn and my mum saw that immediately and then when I told her she was great. But I think you know I still lost a lot of confidence. Did you tell her at that stage? Yeah, around about that same sort of time. And she was amazing with it.

And that's why in the song that I wrote, I made sure that I used both angles of it. Because it's important for people to know that it's not all, you know, you come out and everybody's great. Like, I've experienced it myself and I've, you know, millions of other people who've, you know, either I've read their story or they've messaged me and it's great. I've experienced it myself and I've, millions of other people who've either have read their story or they've messaged me and it's like, oh, my mum didn't take it very well or my dad didn't take it very well or whatever. So I wanted to show the two sides of it,

but yeah, when I told her, she was amazing, but I'd lost all my friends at that point. So for me, I just went a little bit more inside myself and I started hating the fact that I was different, hating the fact that I was gay and then I created a lot of internalized homophobia and you know, the thing is with when you come out, you end up coming out again and again and again

because you meet new people. Every time. Yeah, or have you got a girlfriend and then you're having to sort of explain or you're having to lie or, I spent a lot of time lying and kind of going around the truth and I'm too busy or I've got other stuff on or whatever it is and it was awful.

I mean my dad lives in Canada so I used to take a picture with my friend Danielle who is at school with me. We used to take pictures together and I'd just bank them and then I'd send them saying oh this is me and Danielle we've been hanging out and so and so and pretended that we were dating. So it's like I just spent a lot of time lying when I was younger. But did you actually get a girlfriend? Yeah, yeah. What an amazing friend of mine. And we were together for a long time. And then, you know, when prom came and, you know, we wanted to,

she wanted to take things to a different level and I just couldn't bring myself to do that to her. And so I had to kind of tell her and she was devastated. And then she felt like myself to do that to her. And so I had to kind of tell her and she was devastated and she felt like I'd been lying to her and then it's just another wave of like I'm hating other people again by trying to be myself. And like there's a lot of self-loathing, guilt, shame. Yeah, loads. Yeah, loads, loads of that. And I didn't really, I mean, I went through life like that. I mean, all my twenties and stuff was the same. You'd go out and, you know, if a girl came onto me or whatever, then I always felt awful

because I'd have to either play along with it and pretend or I'd have to sort of shove it off. And either way, I felt bad. So then, you know, going through that and then, you know, like I say, about all my 20s, I was wanting to get involved and date, and especially with my sexuality, I wanted to truly experience what it's like to be gay, but never felt like I could and felt judged. So I didn't really come to terms with my sexuality really

until I started writing music, and then that's when I started putting my diary entry, if you like, into my music. And so yeah, it was a long time of self-loathing and a long time of internalized sort of hatred for myself really and then because of that I think that I brought on so many other things you know. It's gonna come out in other ways.

Yeah. You're gonna want to soothe that self-loathing in some way. So how did that manifest for you? For me it manifested I haven't really talked I haven't really talked openly about before. I kind of talked about it in a song that I wrote called Flaws, which was kind of me coming to just acceptance. But yeah, I've not really talked about it openly, but it was, my dad left when I was two and that really affected me, not knowingly at the time, but I think I'd grown up with

a lot of self-doubt and a lot of, you know, feeling not worthy. My sister's dad came into the Ford and he was great and then when he had my sister, I think that changed again and I could tell that I was a stepson and not a real son. So I've had that all my life, which is, you know, took me a long time to love myself and accept myself and know that I am worthy. But whilst I was going through that, then I lost all my mates for being gay and then I just ended up in this place where I would go to bed on a night and I would get my bedside lamp and I would just shine it over my body and anything that I didn't like I would write in a notebook and I would sit

and I would just read this notebook over and over and over again. And I just got to a point where I just thought, I hate myself. I can't, I can't. I don't like being gay. I don't like the way I look. I haven't, I didn't have my dad as a father figure. And they're just the self-worth was just like on the bottom, at the bottom. Did you even, it's really interesting. And thank you so much, by the way, for sharing this. It's a lot, it's a lot.

But also it's like, it's so generous of you because I'm listening to you and I'm like, I had moments like that in my, where I would spend hours like looking at my, like the wattle on my chin or whatever, which was something in some television program I'd seen or my nose or my, you know, like the energy. But at the time, I didn't know it was anything other than normal. Like, were you aware? Like, obviously it's uncomfortable, but if that's your reality, that's your reality, right?

Yeah, I think when I was looking in the mirror and I was not liking what I was seeing, for me, that was, it was very real, and I believed it, that it was real. And that just used to make me feel so crap about myself. And I would say to my mom, I'm like, look at this, there's the little, I mean like the little blood blisters.

I would get so, I would over scrutinize it, and I'd be like, you know, or a freckle or whatever it was. And I would just get so obsessed about it. I'd be showing my mom, my mum's like, I can't see it and that would make it so much more worse for me because I'd be like, it's there.

And then I'd feel stupid. So I just really didn't feel like I was getting anywhere with anything, you know? And that's when I had to, there was no negotiating. I came to a point where I'd gotten that low and I'd gotten that trapped in my own sort of darkness really that I went to a local bridge where I lived and I very nearly killed myself. It was so painful every day to get up and to see the same things I hated about myself in my reflection

to know that I'd wasted all of my teen years, all of my 20s, not going out and doing what everybody else was doing and, you know, experiencing things and having relationships and I just that, that hate and that's that low self-worth. I just thought I can, I can never see this getting any better. And I was on the edge and, um, first thing that came up into my mind was my mum and I thought, I can't do this to her, you know? And so I sort of pulled myself back and gave myself a little bit of a, you know, a bit of a check and went home, didn't tell my mum. And the very next day I was supposed to be going into work and I was just in the car park and I just cried

my eyes out and I just thought, I can't, I just thought I can't keep doing this because I'm punishing myself. And so I called my doctors and I said I'm just scared that if I don't see somebody and speak to somebody professionally I'm going to do something stupid. And I got in that week and went through the NHS, went to go and see a counsellor with my mum and she held my hand through the whole, went to go and see a counsellor with my mum and she held my hand through the whole thing. It was beautiful and I just realised then talking to somebody for me was essential. That was the only thing that was going to come and pull me back from

the edge literally. And I went every week until I felt better. So for me, therapy has completely saved my life. Can I come and give you a hug? Yeah, please. I'm just going to really, I I come and give you a hug? Yeah, please. I'm just going to really, I just want to give you a hug because I'm really, I'm really grateful for you opening up also. And I'm going to sit down without ruining the microphone. No, but this is the thing.

Some things are more important than the positions of microphones and lighting. Yeah. And to talk about those moments is, is, is, is really, is, is really generous, you know, because it's hard and you don't have to, you're under no obligations to come in and talk about your darkest moments, you know. I'm really grateful. Oh my God, you're so welcome. It's like what you said at the, at the beginning, you know, you, you, you think that it's just your thing and although there's a lot of it that makes it my story and my upbringing and whatever else, I think there

will be loads of other people that have gone through, like you said, with body dysmorphia. That's one side of it. I mean, I've got the body dysmorphia. I had the internalised homophobia. I had low self-worth. My dad wasn't there growing up. So I had all these things and it's like, talking about it can be hard, but the hope that, you know, that somebody will take that story and go, oh my God, that's me. And I can relate to that is just worth talking. It's just worth it. So body dysmorphia is you look in the mirror and you, you'll see things that aren't actually there. Yeah. That either out there or that you are you are over scrutinising to such a level that in your mind it's way worse than it actually is. I think that was what was frustrating. My mum, she would be saying to me,

but you, you're beautiful. I mean, she's my mum. So she's like, you're beautiful. You're gorgeous. There's nothing wrong with you. And I think when we went to council and my mum sat with me and, and, and she said that the council was like, I know what you're trying to do and it's with the best intentions, but when you say to him, don't be stupid or don't be silly, he's then going to use that as a, now I'm being stupid. And it's like, it compounds down on all the other issues he's got. She was like, if it's in his mind that he's got something on his body or on his skin, then in his mind, that's

what he's going to believe. So I think we've got to work out why he's feeling that way. So we did loads of CBT and different therapy techniques. I used to feel real stupid doing it, but I think CBT is, it can be such an impressive tool. I used to do this tapping and certain pressure points and I'd have to reaffirm to myself, I'd have to look in the mirror and say, you are worthy and you'd feel daft and I won't want anybody seeing me doing it. But it just helped so much because then, you know, the next day I would feel a little bit lighter and it wouldn't be massively noticeable. Like I won't look in the mirror and go, wow, stunner. But like, I just feel that I won't go straight for the notepad on the night or I wouldn't, you know, I won't write so many things down and I just see that I saw that improving week on week.

So, so this notepad, it just was literally a list of all of the things on your body that you hated. Yeah, yeah. So I was part of my therapy, I sat and bent it with my mom and it was like a really like uplifting experience because that used to be like a bit of a holy grail for me. I used to go to bed and it would be the first thing I'd go for because it was so embedded in my routine to check myself really and to almost prove to myself why I felt so crap, you know. So you were adding things so you were going this is what is wrong with me. Yeah these are all the things that are wrong with me and this is why I feel the way I do. So it was justifying it. Right. So it was like finding evidence for what you hate yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so now I look back, it's it's I should have what I should have done and what the council said to me is like you

what if you feel that you've got to write those bad things down, that's fine. But do yourself a favour and be fair and write the things that you like about yourself down as well. And when I'd started to do that, that's when I, that's when I mean I started to not use the list as much or not check it as much or whatever else. Cause he was right, you know, I wasn't being fair to myself. I was writing things I didn't like about myself, but not things that I did. So I wasn't, I wasn't giving myself fair judgment. You know what I mean? So how old were you when this was?

It was not long after I'd sort of come out to my mate. So I must have been like a teenager. Yeah. Going on, going on through my teens and things got quite dark. Early 20s, I'd say. So the suicidal thoughts and. Well, because I started drinking and, you know, that's a depressant in itself. Yep. So we all know that.

But it's but it's also like, let's talk about how, depressing in itself. Yep. So we all know that. But it's also like, let's talk about how, honestly, about how in Britain, it's like the only, or certainly when we were, I mean, I was born in 1980, but when we were coming of age and getting older, it was like, if you've got a problem, end of the day, you have a drink. You have a drink, 100%. I mean, that's still, even to some extent till today. I still go for drink as a coping mechanism. Nowhere near as much. I'm much more healthier

in my approach to mental health. You know, I work out a lot. I, you know, speak to a therapist. I check in with my mates all the time, my friends, family, you know, and so that definitely helps. But, you know, this, this industry that I work in is wild. So I want to talk to you about that because on so many levels, like to have a history of body dysmorphia and then become part of the music industry via a show like Britain's Got Talent, that must have been really hard. Yeah, yeah. As a whole lad, you know, working for the whole City Council for eight years after school, didn't really know what I wanted to do in life, you know, had a little bit of a passion

for singing, but even I didn't really even start singing until like my early twenties. I didn't, you know, I was, I loved music and I was a drummer at school and I just never saw it going in that direction, you know, family was, I loved music and I was a drummer at school and I just never saw it going in that direction. You know, family, it's Northern. So it's almost like you have to get a real job. You know, you can't be faffing around with music. You know, it's, it's, it's

But more way to, but that's kind of, it's another way to loathe yourself. Yeah, yeah. So the thing you actually want to do. I was like, it's not a real job. Ana, Ana, Ana. Even that, I'm, I can't allow myself to do. Ana, Ana. It's not a real job. Anna, Anna, Anna. Even that I can't allow myself to do. Anna, Anna. It's crazy now I look back at it because I just go, God, you've maybe wasted so much

time. But again, we're formed through our experiences actually. Also just looking back now I feel like it's like you're just a glorious, creative Northern boy who needed that outlet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, singing and performing was a hobby, not anything I'd dream of doing in real life. And it was my sister who, she inspired me all growing up

because she used to go to dance school and singing school and stuff. And so I used to go watch her and I just used to be in awe of her. Like I remember going to Whole New Theatre and just watching her sing in front of all these people. And I was like, oh my god, she's so brave. How can she?

Jade. Yeah, she's four years younger than me. I used to be so proud and I think I'd go into my own room and I'd emulate that a little bit and try and pretend to be confident. One night I thought she was out and she overheard me singing in my bedroom and she took it upon herself, Brian, to put me into a karaoke competition. She didn't tell me. So I went there thinking it was to watch her and they were like, oh, what song are you singing? I was like, don't be daft.

What song did you sing? I sang Last Request by Paola Nottini. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. It was the first song I ever sang live and there was only about 13 people in the pub and I got this little applause and I've honestly I've been chasing that high ever since. It was it felt like purpose, it felt like I was worthy, it felt like you know all of the negative stuff in that moment was just gone and I was like oh my god this is like it feels

like this is what I'm meant to do. And just been chasing that ever since. But Britain's Got Talent for sure. Okay. So let's, so let's go from the karaoke competition with 13 people in the room. It doesn't seem real now. To Britain's Got Talent. So this is, so 2015 in a theatre. Yeah, in Manchester. Including Simon Cowell. Who were the judges? Simon, it was Alicia Dixon, David Williams and Amanda Holden. Yeah. So, and he gives you the golden

buzzer. Yeah. That in itself is not straightforward. No, he wasn't allowed to show any favouritism. So even though I was his golden buzzer, it was very much like, I believe in you, not I'm going to mentor you. Yeah. So I still was kind of on my it was very much like, I believe in you, not I'm going to mentor you. Yeah. So I still was kind of on my own a little bit. And I obviously had Sycho behind me and we were working with the teams. So I did have, you know, there was some structure there, but I was still very much out on my

own. So what, okay, what was that like? It was mental. And you know, the difference between X Factor and Britain's Got Talent is there was only three performances on Britain's Got Talent. One was my audition, there was a semi-final and a final if I got through. So I was kind of just like, all my focus was on that semi-final because I thought, well, if I'm not going through, I don't have weeks and weeks and weeks of things to worry about.

It's just that semi-final performance. And it was very different, the to the to the live show because I'd never experienced anything like that in my entire life If you like this episode we think you'll love this I'm David Patrick Karakas on this week's apocalypse now this. I'm David Patrick Karakas on this week's Apocalypse Now. We're in Washington, DC, as I speak to you, a former diplomat in the Obama administration and one of America's leading defense experts. We discuss everything from the disappearance of the Democrats to the signal debacle and the future of Ukraine. Listen to Apocalypse Now wherever you get

your podcasts. and an adult child have the sort of intimate and revealing conversations we all wish we could have, but somehow we don't. There was just no room in me, I didn't think, for any more love to give. Of course, I found that love is the one thing that isn't rationed. We record mostly in our guests' own homes. It's almost as if you've been invited in to share in a very real and very heartfelt conversation. That's the Apple and the Tree. It's out now, available wherever you get your podcasts.

You've done a lot of work with Take That. Yeah, that was one of my proudest moments in my career so far, was getting to perform an amazing song, like Greatest Day with Take That, for the King, for his coronation, in the King's back garden was just the most amazing thing ever. I mean, it sounds like I was at a barbecue. It was in Windsor Castle

and to be there and to perform alongside Lionel Richie was there and Katy Perry was there and I was just like, what is my life? I think I've got to tell you something else. Yeah, go on. I can't believe I forgot this. Go on. Greatest day was my first dance at my life. I think I've got to tell you something else. Yeah, go on. I can't believe I've got this. Go on. Greatest day was my first dance at my wedding. Oh, my husband was like, you're just having a fun moment. I was like, I was like, if I can't actually get married to one of take that I will get married to via them on in the background. He was like, okay, I love the precarious nature of the song as well. Today this could be the greatest day close to me. I mean, yeah, come on. That doesn't even say I can't. I can't say. So hang on. So you perform greatest day with take that for the King of England. Yeah. At the Windsor

Castle. Windsor Castle. Yeah. Lionel Rich he was on afterwards. Yeah. England. Yeah. At the Windsor Castle. Windsor Castle. Yeah. He was on the coronation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just bizarre. Just bizarre. Because I'd recorded the song with them for their film, Greatest Days. Yeah. That was their film. And so we recorded the remake of it. And then Gary was just like, would you want to come and do the coronation with us? And I was like, yes. It was. Yeah. I think that's where I came off and ball my eyes out. I got straight on the first time to my mum and I was just like,

I can't believe I've just done that. And she was just like, she was in awe. She didn't come. I asked if she wanted to come with me and she was like, oh, no. She was like, I don't really think it's my thing. And for ages, I was like, why? Why didn't she want to come? She thought it was like the actual ceremony of him, you know, having the crown and the,

you know, the crown jewels and all that. She thought it was like the long ceremony. And I was like, Debs. This is the fun bit. This is the fun bit. Yeah. And she was, she was gutted when she knew, but it was, it was amazing. Like, like you say, I think in my mind, I was just like,

I'm proud of myself, I've come a long way, and almost didn't, if I've got to deep it, almost would have thrown it all away, and now I think, look at all these amazing things I've done, and I'm so proud of myself that I managed to get myself on the straight and narrow as this up north. On your social media, you've been honest about, you know, like during the pandemic,

sort of body transformations. Yeah, yeah. So how do you balance that self-esteem stuff with the sort of madness of having like a million and a half followers on social media and having to be, you know, it's a very like image based industry. And also, you know, and social media, I can't imagine what it must be like to be a person with a history of body dysphoria trying to navigate Instagram.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just scared to post things because of how you look and then you judge yourself and everybody's got that. Do you feel that? everybody's got that. Do you feel that? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Really? Yeah, and it's rough because it's like, you know, your immediate thing of being like,

oh, that was an amazing time and I might be doing, I might be in a position or have a set and facial expression. It's an amazing moment in time. But then I think twice about posting it because I'm like, oh, I might get, you know, somebody might point out, I've got a fat roll there or I've got, you know, my hair's a bit skewed with or. So that's still something. Still, yeah, 100 percent, 100 percent. Everybody puts their best bits on.

And I think that's what upsets a lot of people is because they then take that and they go, oh my God, they look amazing. You know, my sister had the same sort of issue. She was like, you know, everybody I see online is beautiful. And then I look at the mirror and I just go, I hear what I see. And I was like, firstly, let's not go down that road. I've been there. And she's very good about it. She got herself out of that train of thought. But, you know, for some people, they might not if they don't have that sort of support around them. Or what I've found a lot is that I definitely

have a voice to be able to talk about how I feel. But other people's dirt or other people might struggle talking about how they feel. So you can be very alone in that. And then I think the social media can be a lonely place, even though it's... Everyone seems to be there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do a lot of work in body image and self acceptance. I run a marathon in my pants to be like, look at my flab running around, you know, and is to kind of to try and disconnect my self-worth from the way I look.

Right, yeah. But it's really hard. It's really hard, really hard, especially when, you know, we're getting a lot better with, you know, with body image and people accepting themselves no matter what, I think. But there's still a long way to go. People are still going to post their best bits on social media. Magazines are still going to use, you know, a certain type of person to promote, you know, X, Y and Z. You know, like you said, we've got to detach self-worth from image because image doesn't determine self-worth.

So I'm always like a bit like, you know, like in CBT you get exposure therapy. So you're forced to do the thing that gives you the most fear. So my Instagram is in many ways, it's like an act of exposure therapy, where I just post the worst pictures for my camera roll and they're like the sportiest and the flabbyest and what happens is it's kind of reverse. Like when I meet people in real life, they're like, Ohiest and the flabbyest. And what happens is it's kind of reverse. When I meet people in real life, they're like, oh, you look much better than that. So it's like, so it's like they're really shocked when they meet me because they're like, oh, I thought you because I done and actually it's really, it's a really refreshing thing. And the

and actually the kind of thing of going, no, I'm not, I'm going to put this picture up. Yeah. And but again, I suppose at the end of the day, I'm seeking the same thing, which is validation, which is for you all to go see the picture and go, you're great. Thanks for doing this. Like it's again, it's the same thing. It's just a different way of getting it. I, I, that's why I, I've gone online a couple of times and I've done like little videos

where I've said today, I feel like shit, you know, I've, I've, I've eaten badly. I've, you know, wallowed in self pity. I've been drinking. I don't like the way I look. I don't, you know, and I just feel shit because I need other people to know that just cause you're a singer or a celebrity or if you have a million and a half followers. Exactly. Still have problems. Still have problems. Even if I am best mates with Gaz. Gaz? Gaz, yeah. Gaz will be.

So is he the one that you feel your best friends with? My heart's very big. So luckily I can take all these as besties. So who are your other like? Little besties. Yeah, who are your other besties? Lovely Anna-Louise. Yeah, oh my god.

She's just amazing. Okay, yeah. She's amazing. Obviously Ed Sheeran. Oh yeah, obviously. He's quite great. Yeah, he's a good friend. He. She's amazing. Obviously Ed Sheeran. He's quite great. He's a good friend. He's a good friend. He strikes me as like a really good example of that keeping like stratospheric fame while somehow keeping your feet on the ground. Oh my God. He's a pro at it. I mean, he's him is a huge, like, grounding zone.

You know, I've met his wife, I've met his kids, and they're beautiful and they're amazing and they're so good for him. Like, we were backstage and, you know, Cherry was there and his kids was there and he was just playing football with his girls and I just thought, this is so, what I would do, it's so normal to just, you're having a game of football

with your kids and, you know, it's an absolute mega star, but it's still doing the things, you know, it's still spending time with his kids, it's still, you know, making time for those special moments. You've spoken about wanting kids. Yes. So how is, tell me, how is the, how is, can I ask you about your personal life? You can ask me about what you want. Yeah, you can.

Obviously, kids, the kid thing for me is a big deal because my nephew is eight years old and my mum loves being a grandma to him. Absolutely loves it. And you can see it. And she's been like, I think that was her first worry, you know, when I first sort of said that I was gay and I think she got a bit upset and at first I was like, what is going on? Why are you crying? But she was like, oh, I've just always wanted grandkids. And I was like, I can still provide that.

It's not like, oh, I'm gay. Well, that's it. No kids ever. But so she's always wanted me to have kids. Then when my sister had Oliver, that sort of, I think, satisfied that missing hole in her life of wanting grandkids. But she definitely wants, she definitely wants me to have a kid as well. And for me, it's just when is the right time? I don't suppose there ever is the right time. So I'm sort of like thinking, well, you know,

if I'm going on tour or if I'm writing an album, am I going to have the time to have a kid? And if I do have a kid, I know that they're going to be my everything. So then is music then going to take a backseat? Can I afford to take a backseat with music? So it's like a bit of a struggle at the minute of like how I'm gonna do it. You know, I talked to Tom Daley about his process, he went through with his husband. And there's loads of other people that have talked about, you know, the fertility and IVF and, you know, all that stuff. So I've got the support there when I start, when I start the process, but it's when

you, when you start. So suppose when you, when you know, like my two best mates, when they started for kids, they were like, right, we're going to try for kids. So then it's then up to just look and you know, that divine moment. Whereas with me, it will be much more intentional. Do you know what I mean? So it's, it's a bit? So it's a bit scary. It's a bit scary. I've written a song already about my future kid. So like a little love letter to them. Yeah. So let's talk about music as well. So you've got new music coming out.

New music. Yeah. I've got, I like that. It was a good segue that. It's like you do this professionally, Riley. But yeah, no, I've got new music coming. I've got a new single called God Knows that I'm teasing at the minute that's coming out very, very, very soon. And then that will be followed by an album, which is very, very exciting. For me, this feels like a really great time in my career. I just feel really like content and really happy. And I think for the first two albums that I'd made, because like you said, I'd had this amazing experience at Britain's Got Talent

and then when I released Dancing On My Own as my version as a single, that's when I think the music industry took it. So for me that was another like another birth of my career. That was mental and then I just found myself touring around the world, meeting people in Australia and New Zealand, meeting people in Australia and New Zealand, South Africa and America and all these amazing places and started writing

an album. And I was just like, Oh shit, like I'm actually writing an album. This is something I've dreamed of. Was working with an amazing producer called Fraser T. Smith. And yeah, it was lovely. Really, really great. So you worked with like Stormzy. Yeah, Stormzy, Adele, Ellie Goldin, like you know huge artists.

So writing that I feel like for the first two albums I definitely had imposter syndrome and I was thinking it's gonna run out at some point so just keep on making them as long as you can. I think this is the first album that I've made where I've gone I deserve to be where I'm at, I've worked hard, I've got my foot in the door, I'm not going anywhere, and now this is the music that I want to make, which for me is so much better than scrambling or feeling like I'm scrambling. You know, I suppose I was talking to my label the other day and I sort of weirded it in a way and then she came back to me and she was like, I don't think you're sort of

scrambling. She said, your first album was a manifesto for what was going to be the next chapters of your life. And I was like, Oh my God. Yeah, it was. It's that self-worth thing again. I mean, it's the battle of the life, isn't it? Yeah. Because I always think I was going to ask you the question, how is your self-worth

now and like, what can one answer? Like, I, cause I feel like that we probably got quite an uncommon and like just from listening to you and when people ask me that question, what, how is, you know, how is your confidence now or whatever? I was like, oh yeah, now I'm doing okay, I'm doing good. But the truth is, like, life is just, it's a constant battle, isn't it? To kind of feel good and the moments are sort of fleeting and you take them when they come. But I think it's always like we have this kind of idea in our heads that you're going towards this destination and then you're going to stay there.

So my, you know, my self-worth is good and now it's just going to stay good. Yeah, it just doesn't. It changes. Well, because life gets in the way, you know, at the end of the day, you've got a ton of obstacles and I think that's the thing for me, what I explained to my mates. In fact, it was just out in whole at the weekend. I told you then, didn't I? I was absolutely hanging out my hoop. Listen, we're here for hangovers as well. I might not have them anymore, but I've had

still sympathised. Listen, babes, I've had some horrific hangovers which is why I'm not allowed to have them anymore. Yeah, I genuinely questioned why I drink when I woke up on Sunday morning, I'll tell you that. But yeah, I was out with the boys on Saturday night and explained to them, it's like you said, there's that destination that you're going to and it's almost like they see this, it's just glamour and success and feel good and energy and excitement.

And that's that journey towards that magnificent place is all incredible. And it's like, it's not it's like that. It's just it's up and down all the time. And I found I found it quite hard to coast in between highs and lows. I remember early on in my career, I was singing dance on my own at the O2 and I think it was like, it was Jingle Bell Ball. And I'd done, I'd sang the song in front of however many thousand there at the O2, everybody singing it back. And within like 15, 20 minutes I was in a hotel room in bed because I had an early flight. So I'd gone from like thousands of people screaming and cheering to then being in bed by myself. And I was like, I found that really hard. And I got a bit upset and then was like,

why are you getting upset? You've just done something amazing. Why you, you know, and that then perpetual eyes is, um, can I just go back quickly to, um, the, your night out at the weekend, you said you went out in hurl with the lads. With the boys. With the boys. Now, were these, these weren't the same boys from when you were 12. No, these boys are so supportive and so, just so understanding. I mean, I've got a couple of, cause of my age now, I'm hanging around with people, you know, who've all had experiences and all gone through things and, you know, one of my good pals, he owns the local ice hockey team and he's been very successful.

He used to be a footballer. Another one of his brothers were there, his dad, I got him with all of those boys. Then a couple of my friends who PT's at the gym or mechanics or whatever they are. And it's like, we've all had experiences, but there's an understanding and a respect amongst us all, do you know what I mean? Like for life, for what we've been through, the ups and downs. So you, you know, I'll talk to them and they'll, of course, you know, I talked to them about this career and it's still mental to them. It's mental to me, but there's just an understanding and you know, they're there for me. If I needed to pick up the phone and say, I'm having a crap day, they'd be on the phone. And I just rate that so much.

If you were to come across one of those skateboard kids in Hull on a night out, what would you say to them? And have you ever come across one? A couple of times I've seen them in sort of my city. And where are they now? They're... Well, hopefully they're very happy and very successful. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what I'd say, because I think I've come such a long way. And like I said, I can't recommend therapy and counselling enough. It's done me wonders.

One of the things that we, me and my therapist, went through is forgiveness and how forgiveness isn't for somebody else, it's for yourself. I always used to think forgiveness was like, you're basically allowing somebody to have done what they've done. It's like if you say, I forgive you, it almost feels like, I almost used to think of it as like you're giving them a pass, but it's not that. You're forgiving somebody because you're carrying around a lot of negative energy and you know, you've moved through and forgiving is yeah. Forgiveness is releasing yourself from that, you know?

And so yeah, I wouldn't have any bad word to say. That brings me to my final question. Okay. Which is that if you could speak to 12 year old Callum now and say something to him, what would you say? Oh, Brian, the deep stuff. I would just tell him that I'm incredibly proud of him, that he's going to come up against a lot.

There's going to be some good, some bad, there's going to be some moments where it feels like there's nothing but darkness, but you're going to grow into a successful, you know, average looking man. You're going to, you're going to be touching people's hearts all across the world just by being you. So just, just be you. Don't be afraid to be you. And one day you'll be best friends with Gaz Barlow. The most important thing. How amazing is Callum Scott? I'm kind of a little bit in love with him. His honesty was

just so, so, so heart wrenching, actually. And when he spoke about being a 12 year old boy and being rejected by his friends, I just wanted to leap up and throw my arms around him. I think that even if you've not struggled with your sexuality or any of the issues perhaps that Callum spoke about, there's still something so human and relatable about him. And I just really hope it helped as a conversation because I really, really need to hear in my life stories of people going through

unbelievably hard times and then coming through them and turning it around as Callum has. So if this conversation has helped you in any way, I would love it if you liked, subscribed, followed, left a review and shared it with someone who you think might need to hear it too. Take care, be kind to yourself and I'll see you next time. If you like this episode, we think you'll love this. I'm David Patrick Karakas. On this week's Apocalypse Now, we're in Washington, DC, as I speak to you, a former diplomat in the Obama administration and one of America's leading defense experts. We discuss everything from the disappearance of the Democrats to the signal debacle and the future of Ukraine.

Listen to Apocalypse Now wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode, we think you'll love this. Hello, I'm Richard Coles and this is The Apple and the Tree, a podcast where a parent and an adult child have the sort of intimate and revealing conversations we all wish we could have, but somehow we don't. There was just no room in me, I didn't think, for any more love to give. Of course, I found that love is the one thing that isn't rationed. We record mostly in our guests' own homes. It's almost as if you've been invited in to share in a very real and very heartfelt conversation. That's the Apple and the Tree.

It's out now, available wherever you get your podcasts.