The Life Of Bryony - 53. ‘She Lived Life Loudly, and We Want to Keep Doing That’: Remembering Dame Deborah James

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

QUICK SURVEY – TELL US WHAT YOU'RE LOVING: We’re running a short survey to get to know you better—so we can keep making the kind of episodes you actually want to hear. Takes 2 mins, promise: https://ex-plorsurvey.com/survey/selfserve/550/g517/250305?list=3 MY GUESTS THIS WEEK: BEN & SARAH JAMES April is Bowel Cancer Awareness Month, and I’m joined by Ben and Sarah James—siblings of the late, great Dame Deborah James. Deborah, also known as Bowelbabe, broke taboos, inspired millions, and changed how we talk about cancer—one brutally honest Instagram post (and poo emoji outfit) at a time. Since her death, Ben and Sarah have kept her legacy alive through the Bowelbabe Fund and are now training for the London Marathon in her honour. We talk about why so many of us still feel too embarrassed to talk about poo, how early detection of bowel cancer can save lives, and the bittersweet joy of remembering someone you love and miss every single day. Together we celebrate Debs, whose motto was clear: live life, loudly. ⸻ 🚽 TOILET TALK – THE VIDEO SERIES Toilet Talk is a bold new video series from the Bowelbabe Fund and Cancer Research UK—featuring celebs on a neon-lit loo, smashing taboos one laugh at a time. 🎥 Watch now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_C_mAqiC58 ⸻ 💩 CHECK YOUR POO! https://www.bowelbabe.org/ Debs saved lives by saying the unsayable: check your poo. It’s not weird. It’s not embarrassing. It’s just good sense. Know the signs, trust your gut—and if something feels off, talk to your GP. It could save your life. ⸻ 📲 WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU 🗣 Got something to share? Text or send a voice note on 07796657512—just start your message with LOB. 💬 Use the WhatsApp shortcut: https://wa.me/447796657512?text=LOB 📧 Prefer email? Drop me a line at [e-mail] If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone who might find it helpful—it really makes a difference! Bryony xx 🎙 CREDITS 🎙 Presenter: Bryony Gordon 🎙 Guests: Ben & Sarah James 🎧 Content Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan 🎥 Audio & Video Editor: Luke Shelley 📢 Executive Producer: Mike Wooller A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Life of Briny, the podcast where we promise to talk honestly about the things people usually shy away from. Today, we're tackling a subject that's still very taboo and that's the subject of poo, bell health and the reality of losing someone you love to cancer. I'm joined by Ben James and Sarah Weiserich, two people deeply connected to the work of the Bowel Babe Fund and Cancer Research UK. They are the siblings of the wonderful Dame Deborah James. This April marks Bowel Cancer Awareness Month and they're helping carry forward the legacy

of their sister Dame Debs, also known as Bowel Babe. We're talking about signs and symptoms, why embarrassment can be deadly, and how you can have conversations that just might save a life. She's very much in living still, even though she's not, and so that's only a positive, grateful for that. And then also, I think it was her plan, she's kept

us so busy, like I think she was like right this this this this set this fund up it will keep mum and dad it will keep everyone busy. I think that was probably part of her plan as well that we don't have time to think about it. My chat with Ben and Sarah coming up right after this. Hello, presenter Bryony. Hello, producer Jonathan. I can't help but notice that's a beautiful handbag you've got down there. Okay, Martin, let's try one. Remember, big.

You got it. The Ford It's a Big Deal event is on. How's that? A little bigger. The Ford It's a Big Deal event is on. How's that? Uh, a little bigger. The Ford It's a Big Deal event. Nice. Now the offer? Lease a 2025 Escape Active All-Wheel Drive from 198 bi-weekly at 1.99% APR for 36 months with $27.55 down. Wow, that's like $99 a week.

Yeah, it's a big deal. The Ford It's a Big Deal event. Visit your Toronto area Ford store or Ford.ca today. Okay, flights on air Canada. How about Prague? Ooh, Paris. Those gardens. Gardens. Um, Amsterdam. Tulip Festival.

I see your festival and raise you a carnival in Venice. Or Bermuda has carnaval. Ooh, colourful. You want colourful. Thailand. Lantern Festival. Boom. Book it. Um, how did. You want colourful. Thailand. Lantern festival. Boom. Bucket. Um, how did we get to Thailand from Prague? Oh right, Prague. Oh boy. Choose from a world

of destinations, if you can. Air Canada. Nice travels. Thank you, it cost £45 from M&S. Well, the handbag cost £45, but is there something attached to it? A bag charm attached to it that makes it, it elevates it. It really does. Bag charms are everywhere. And this is what I wanted to know. How many Life of Briny listeners, viewers, however you take in the podcast, have bag charms or have been tempted by a bag charm, right?

Okay. Because like they show up all the time in my Instagram feed, you know, it's like the ads. But then also the yesterday, I went and had lunch in a very she-she part of London where I don't live, right? And that part of London was Notting Hill. Very nice, Sunday lunch.

Sunday lunch, right? And then afterwards we went, me and my sister, we went and we walked onto Westbourne Grove, which is like the really posh shopping bit. Yeah, very nice. I went into this shop called Love Shack Fancy, which is like, I love all the colours. And I said, excuse me, what size do you go up to? And she said, a UK size 14. What's that?

Well, that is not my size, Jonathan. That is not my size. I am not a UK size 14. What's that? Well, that is not my size, Jonathan. Okay, that's all that matters. That is not my size. I am not a UK size 14. I'm more of a UK size 18 to 20. Oh. Increasingly, the only thing that larger ladies such as myself can buy in a high street store is a bag charm. That is depressing.

This is a style that I think I'm really into, which is, we can talk about this on another podcast, Toddler Corps. I think you're already in there, sorry. Yeah, like I dress like a toddler. Yeah, I like it though. Like I want hearts, smiley faces, bright colors, bright pinks, prints, polka dots, that's what I want. Like I sometimes, I'm like, oh, there I am on my Instagram

and an advert comes up for something like Bowdoin and I go, God, that dress is so nice. I'll just click on it to see if they have it in my size. And guess what? They don't because it's Bowdoin kids. It's Bowdoin kids. What's more insulting? Is it in store when it only goes up to 14 or is it online when it's a toddler size?

When it only goes up to age 14. Anyway, sorry. That's the kind of, that is what I wanted to talk about to you today, Producer Jonathan. And do you know who would like that story? Who? Your friend Debs. Oh, and we're talking about Dame Deborah James here. Late Dame Deborah James.

She probably would have spent 250 quid on a bag charm. Yeah. She'd be like, I'm worth it. Yeah. And let's face it, she was worth it. Yeah. She's a legend. And I really loved today being able to talk to her brother and sister,

Ben and Sarah, uh, about her. It was like, it's so nice if someone has died tragically, you know, and young, and Deb's was 40. Very young. There's obviously a huge amount of sadness around it. It's often quite nice to be able to talk about them, you know, about their life as opposed to their death. I just, I'm so happy that we've got to do an episode with her family to mark Bowel Cancer

Awareness Month, which is this month, and to smash poo to boos, because if there is nothing Deborah would like more than to hear us devoting an entire episode to checking your poo. And I just want to warn you, if you're listening, we do go into our toilet habits in quite a lot of detail. In an educational and entertaining way. But I hope it gives you permission to discuss your toilet habits with someone close to you or even not that close to you, to a GP if you need to.

I would say pick a designated poo body. Pick one of your friends that you feel so comfortable you can say, can I show you a photo of something for a second? Maybe not over lunch or breakfast or anything like that. But like just in general, everyone should have a poo body. Do you feel that we're at a stage of our friendship where you could show me a picture of your poo? Yes, but only we're going to go back to something we tried before. I'm still desperate to swap bank account details as well.

No, we're not going into that. So you would again rather show me a photo of your poo than your bank account. Yes. Love that. And we'll leave it there. Hello, lovely listener. Thank you so much for being here on The Life of Bryony. We hope you're loving the podcast, but I would love to make the show even better for you. And the best way to do that, finding out more about you. And that means hearing more about what you like, what you don't like, or even the things you're totally ambivalent about. So I've put together

a short survey. It won't take long to fill out and it'll really help us to keep on improving the show. You can find the link in the show notes. Thank you so much. Now let's get back to the life of Bryony. Welcome Sarah and Ben to the life of Bryony. Today we're going to talk about two of my favorite subjects and the first is running and the second is your late sister Dame Deborah James. Thank you for having us. So you two are what your Debs's younger? Youngest yeah. Siblings? Yep. Much younger. I was going to say you're older don't you? Much slightly.

And this month is bowel cancer awareness month and at the end of bowel cancer awareness month the two of you are going to line up on the start line of the London Marathon and you are gonna run, walk, I'm looking at Sarah, she can tell us about that later, 26.2 miles 42 kilometers for the Bow Babe Fund. Yeah and this year is the first year there's a team, there's a team of you running for the Bow Babe Fund. And this year is the first year there's a team, there's a team of you running for the Bow Babe Fund. Yeah, so we've got 16 of us running. First year, we've got kind of spaces in the London Marathon, so it'll be brilliant.

I mean, Deb's loved running, you know that. Did lots of running with her. So I think it's a great way to kind of do something that she probably wouldn't have found challenging, but like I will find really challenging. I remember back in 2020, Sarah, I ran with you and Deb's and our friend Emma, and we did a, we were all training for the London Marathon 2020. And it was, it was before COVID

had happened. So we didn't really know it was happening. And we went out and we ran a half marathon along the Thames and Debs and Emma, they both got treated at the Marsden together, often had chemotherapy together. They were like, off they were, way ahead of us. Well, no, you very kindly stayed at the back with me, not having, you know, me perfectly fit, like, and healthy. I think I must've been 39 then, right? And the two cancer patients, off they go, right? It was just easy for them. And then when, as soon as COVID happened,

I was like, right, well, I'm not, I'm not gonna do this. Deb still, in October of 2020 2020 went out and ran from the door of the Marsden, 26.2 miles, finishing at the door of the Marsden. Sort of sums up Deb's really. I always remember her saying to me once that when she first got diagnosed with bowel cancer her friends were like we're gonna run we're gonna run a marathon for you to raise money for bowel cancer and she she was like, piss off. I don't want someone running for me.

I'm gonna do it myself. Yeah, yeah. Actually, yeah, she hated, because there was one thing, I think it was a half or something we did. Yeah. And she hated not being able to do it. There was one she was too unwell with from treatment and stuff. And it was hard for her to not be able to do it,

because there's so much she normally does herself so yeah all the others she's like now i'm doing it so the virtual one i can't remember but she got everyone running in it like bits and bobs like for every like little bit of journey there were people joining in so it made it really fun because you had like i think you joined in for a bit the children joined in there were friends that just picked me up it was fun so yeah this one won't be as fun because she won't be doing it, but will be more fun in some respects because it's gonna have the atmosphere, like the virtual, you know, there wasn't the atmosphere.

So I'm looking forward to experiencing what the atmosphere is like. Up until a month ago, training was going really well. And I was like, yes, this is like, it's all going to be good. Maybe it was too easy, too breezy, because now my shin is in absolute agony. I'm on like, Neurofen, when I like just to get out of bed, it hurts. But in a way, I'm like, well, maybe this is what it's about. It's not about easiness, is it? It's about doing something that's hard because all those people going through cancer have got like fighting every day and they're still getting on, they're living their lives. Well if marathons were easy, people wouldn't do, you know like it wouldn't be a thing.

And I think that what I think is really interesting and you absolutely nailed it there Sarah is that it's hard, it's really hard but what it is is you get to choose the hard that day. You are choosing how hard shows up for you when you're training for a marathon. And I think when you have been through really dark times, as you guys have losing your sister to bowel cancer, when you get to be in control of the hard, that's actually easier. Because yeah, it's our choice. And she won't mind so much now she always said we could run a marathon for her once she died just now while she was alive. Let's talk about Deb's because it's so lovely to be able to do that you know and I don't know

whether you feel that you're you know and she died was it two and a half years ago now? Yeah when was it? 2022. So yeah nearly three years ago. Well two and a half years ago now? Yeah, when was it? 2022. 2022. So yeah, nearly three years ago, two and a half. Just in case someone listening to The Life or watching The Life of Bryony has been hiding under a rock for the last six or seven years, and for some reason, this is the first thing that they listen to when they come out from under the rock.

Deborah was a deputy head teacher. Yep, deputy head teacher. Mom, wife, lots of things. Mom, wife, big social person, big sports person. And she in, so she, when she was, was it 30? 35, as in diagnosed. Yeah, because I remember actually, because I'm 35 this year, so I remember it's the same year,

but 35 she got diagnosed officially with bowel cancer. And what was the prognosis? It's a good question, but it was quite late, right? Yeah, I don't think she openly shared with us the real prognosis, but I think it was, I think this is probably a common thing when you get diagnosed initially, it was like, oh, it may be, it may not be like she had a colonoscopy they found the tumor it may be cancer it may not so you know that determines the next step then the next step and then it's kind of stage one but then it's like no it's stage two

before you know it it's stage four but not straight you know you're not you don't get given that diagnosis straight away so it's that kind of like lead up to it but that's sadly what it was was stage four. I think with like her mutations and everything it was a very low percentage of surviving kind of that five years. I think with no treatment it probably would have been like a year or something. So she had a massive massive fight ahead of her. I mean she got told to not look at the statistics because like if you look at the statistics she shouldn't have got bowel cancer in the first place. That makes sense, she was vegetarian, she got told to not look at the statistics because, like, if you look at the statistics, she shouldn't have got bowel cancer in the first place.

If that makes sense, she was vegetarian, she was young, fit, healthy. So it was all very much, don't look at the statistics because actually you're not... You're already defying the statistics. You're defying them, you're not part of them. And, you know, research, medicine, everything's improving, so you never quite know. But it was, there was a tough kind of road ahead just to see what the end would be. So she became you know she started she started the kind of bow babe was it a blog? Yeah I think so she kind of I guess in classic Deborah's stride she got diagnosed and

I guess naturally had to take a bit of time off work and what have you with treatment so then didn't want to be left doing nothing so she did quite quickly transition didn't say she didn't put her feet up no yeah she started off doing a blog under this bowel babe avatar or whatever you might call it yeah I think she just wanted to share her story and make a thing of it and maybe yeah like she obviously became more and more known for this but getting rid of some of the stigmatisms at least sharing the goods and the bads of trying to live with cancer as it were I guess she never quite knew where it would go for her it

was probably more of a channel yeah you know let's just put some stuff out there put my words into public domain, as it were. And practice the teacher in her. So, you know, she loved teaching, she loved teaching teachers as well. And she did a lot of training for other teachers. So maybe it was her way of thinking, okay, how can I help others go through this period if they do? And yeah, quickly unraveled into blogs and columns and podcasts. You mean the big C? Exactly, which I think was the first time maybe I started, not that I've hands up listened to every single second, but I think you start realising how the platform she started to

create from the podcast and how well Rachel and the team there kind of took her on board and that spiralled quite quickly into something quite successful. I feel like with Deb's and with that podcast in particular, it was also the first time you heard people talk about living with cancer and not just dying with it. And that was, I think, really refreshing. And to see, and specifically to see Debz out there doing stuff, you know, like the first time I met Debz, this was... When was it? stuff, you know, like the first time I met Debz, this was so okay, so basically we

followed each other on Instagram and I had just run the London Marathon in my underwear as like a size thing to show that running is for everyone and we decided me and my friend Jada who ran that to try and do it with more women so we got on board with a Vitality 10k and they gave us our own wave called Celebrate You and I wanted to get women of all different body experiences to come and run in their underwear. And I messaged Debz, I mean we'd like chat, you know, we chatted a bit and I said would you come and do this? And you know lots of people might have gone and she went yeah sure. And so, and that was Deb's kind of thing, wasn't it?

It was like, of course, yeah, let's do it. And so, yeah, so the first time I properly met Deb's, we were in our underwear on a shoot and then we went on Lorraine together to announce this thing. And we went on. Did you go on in your underwear? Yeah, yeah. They were like, I was like, should we do it in our underwear? She was like yeah of course. Yeah not afraid of that stuff. Yeah and that started this kind of friendship of

you know running and I obviously I feel really lucky that I got to spend any time with Deb's you know because I didn't know her before her diagnosis or anything but I feel really blessed and I feel like she really changed my own personal view of what it might be like to get cancer. And certainly, because the C word, you know, you mean the big C is a really terrifying, it's a terrifying thought for most of us, you know, and rightly so. But she did something where it became less frightening in a way to think that, I think a lot of people get scared,

you know, if they think there's something wrong in their body, they're scared to go to the doctor and get it checked out in case, you know, the worst case scenario. And what she did was show you that the worst case scenario could actually be kind of amazing. Yeah, I think it's important, isn't it't it the whole living because it's what one in two of us will be diagnosed with cancer and with all the advancements in kind of research, medicine and everything people are living longer with it. So actually we really need

to emphasize the living, not like the sentence of it but she was one for always living life. So you said just then you didn't meet her before or diagnosis but after, but I'd say she was the same person. So regardless of knowing her before or after, you would have known Deborah. It was her. The last month or so of her life was, I mean, I just feel like shivers down my spine even thinking about it. So she decided that she was going to launch this fund, the Baobabe Fund. And I always remember she put it up on her Instagram when she decided that she was going to tell people that it was the end.

And I think she'd put like a goal of what was it? A quarter of a million? You said a quarter of a million, which generally she was hoping for a goal of what was it? A course of a million? Can we use the course of a million? Which generally she was hoping for a bit more, but she was doing the numbers. She's like, well, if I have a few hundred thousand followers, maybe, you know, one in five of them will do five pound donations. And that might just get me to, you know, 250,000 or maybe a million if I was really lucky. But she really wanted to make a big impact and she had no interest in, you know, like you say, she wanted to announce as it were that it was going to be the end of her

life at some point in the future. But she didn't want that to not go hand in hand with, okay, I want to do something and give back straight away because I can only do one big post at one point. She made sure that fund was ready, wasn't it? It was like, it has to be ready now. And you were on the phone and stuff. So how quickly did you have to get it together? So I remember, I think we obviously knew she had had a few operations or she was in the hospital the week or two beforehand. And I think it was the Friday or the Thursday.

It was a bit of a sense of, OK, let's all go back home and, you know, start spending some time with the family. And on the Friday, I got the train back home, I remember, and she said, so we need to set up this this fund, as it were. And the Balboa fund is part of Cancer Research UK. So she had already set up a dial in with Michelle, who's the CEO of Cancer Research UK and said, right, I might have until Monday, so you can, you know, we can last until then. But what do you mean? Like, you you can you know we can last until then but She she generally She had to be rated at that point. Yeah, so she was like this has to be done while I'm still alive

Like that was her final message. She wanted to go out with she wanted to see it So, you know, we're obviously in hindsight. We're fortunate. She I think five six weeks later She was still hanging around to see what else she could do. So she announced it on the Monday. Yeah, and I think over the weekend, we obviously set it up and got it all with the help of Cancer Research UK, got it sorted. But, you know, in these couple of days,

it was just Deborah instigating everything. And all she really cared about wasn't saying hi to all of us, it was get everything sorted for Monday. So I want to kind of give back and you know make sure I help all the different people and charities that I can. Yeah and she wanted to be involved in what the fund would stand for, kind of you know where it would guess put the funds that it raises money for. I remember that Monday evening she announced it and I mean within moments it had far exceeded

the quarter of a million. I think you know when you refresh the page, it was constantly, you refresh it and it's like, it's gone up. It's gone up. We were just like, that probably kept us entertained for hours. Like really, just because it was constantly, constantly going up. It was crazy. It was absolutely crazy. It was quite phenomenal, the reaction. I think we actually pretty much just gave it one point. I think it even surprised her actually. I think it even may be surprised. Really? Well, I mean, the amazing thing, I always remember thinking at the time, like, how wonderful that she gets to see while she's still alive the impact that she has on people.

Because often these things happen after someone dies. And it was like, oh, it was so devs, you know, and then to also take that period of, you know, to transform that last period of her life into, you know, death, dying, which is again, something we're all terrified of. And I'm sure it was, you know, I'm sure it was horrible and hideous, but she took even took that and made it the best it could be. What I am, I've said it quite a few times, but what she always called out, I think the first, it was the first day or two we raised the million pounds, but she was the one who pointed out straight away about how many individual people had donated and I

forget the numbers, but I think it's many hundreds of thousands have done individual donations and she was kind of just as excited by someone giving a pound from their pocket money to, you know, people who gave several hundred thousand sometimes. And it was quite incredible, kind of the number of people as well as just... For her it was about raising the money, but also raising awareness. Check your poo! This is a paid advertisement for better help. There's this myth that at a certain point

in your life, you should just have everything figured out. Our careers, our relationships, our self-worth. But the truth? Nobody has it all together. Not really. And that's okay. For me, therapy has always been the place where I can be myself and work through the things that hold me back. Perfectionism, people pleasing, the fear of getting things wrong. It's a space where I don't have to pretend and honestly, that's been life changing. With over 5,000 therapists in the UK already, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a wide variety of expertise in mental health. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash bryony. That's betterhelp, h-e-l-p dot com slash bryony. That's b-r-y-o-n-y. Let's talk about checking your poo. I always remember the best thing I had on the Today program and I remember hearing Nick Robinson, you know, so this is the BBC Today program

that usually is talking about politics and da da da da. He was talking about Deb's and he said, check your poo everyone. And I thought, this is fucking brilliant. Deb's is literally changing. And we know now, we know that the signs to look out for are a persistent change in your bowel habits. So are they looser, more, less often, blood in your stool? Blood in your stool, I think that was Debora's major symptom. And I shouldn't say it, but I did, I wanted to say, I was like, let me see photos, because she had taken photos,

and I was like, I wanna see photos just for my knowledge kind of and it was quite different. Do I mean it's it wasn't It wasn't just a spec. Yeah, there was something different about it I mean and let's get into commit. Do you mind if we get into this? Sorry, like because you can if you have like hemorrhoids Yeah, often you get a little bit of blood. Yeah, when you're wiping not doctors right, but if anything is wrong that's the biggest thing. If there's a change, if you feel like something is wrong, that's the biggest message. It's like go get it checked out. What's your norm? What's your norm?

It's like you said, change of bowel habits, blood in your poo in some way or another. Getting tired is a big one, getting overly tired, losing weight unexpectedly and a pain in your tummy. And it can be blood that you don't see or don't detect, but for Deb's it was obvious, I'd say. Did you see the pictures? She did say that lots of people started sending theirs to her on Instagram. Oh really? Yeah, a lot of the time. But she'd always say just go get a check out.

Yeah, she was always going to get a check because everyone's so different. This is not the... If you are worried, go to the doctor. Yeah, go and see your doctor. I'd probably worry about cancer, but it's better to find out. Well, the earlier detected, the more... So your survival rate goes up to 90%. Yeah, I think like 9 in 10 people survive more than 5 years if it's caught at the earlier stage. That drops to 1 in ten latest stage. So it is really important to, you know, I think that was part of Deborah's drive isn't it,

is like early detection, raise awareness of the signs and the symptoms because actually that can do so much to give people more time with their loved ones because your chances of survival are so much better. The new series on the social media stuff that's coming out. The toilet talk is coming out because I think we did a YouGov poll and it kind of showed, I think it's about, I could get this wrong, I think it's a third of people that were polled are uncomfortable going to talk to a GP about their poo. I want to say about half are uncomfortable talking to a friend, four in ten are uncomfortable talking to a family member.

So millions and millions of people are just not comfortable talking to anyone about their poo. You can know the signs and symptoms, but if you're not going to talk to anyone about it, it's not going to help. And so I think there's some toilet talk coming up. You've got Gabby Roslyn, Melvin Ado, Merlin Griffiths. We'll put all the details in our show notes. Yeah I think they get released like from beginning of April like each week. It'll be fun talking about their funniest like poo, toilet moments. Okay we should lead by example guys and talk about our funniest poo moments.

I'm trying to think. I don't know mine, what's yours? My most embarrassing poop story. I don't know, again, I'm quite like, I've been quite lucky. So here's the thing, and this maybe is relatable to people listening or watching, my husband spends fucking hours in the toilet. I'm like, what are you doing in there? Like, he like blocks it out. I'm not literally blocks it out, but every morning. I'm like, how long are you going to be in there? It's like an hour. I'd get numb legs if I sit on the toilet too long. My legs go, pins and needles. I've always said this, this is the most disgusting phrase I have ever used on this podcast, which is really saying something. I go to the loo and it's like a cobra out of a wet bush. I'm

in and out. I have no, I have no, like I remember when I was really young, I used to get really embarrassed, embarrassed about doing a poo in public. Not like on the floor like that one. I still do actually. But like in a public toilet. And I used to like worry me about going to school, like going to school and doing a poop in the school toilets. I used to get this like fear so I couldn't, I just couldn't do it. Now I have like no problems. I will do a poo in anyone's toilet. Offer me your toilet, I will do a poop in it. What's your most embarrassing poo story, Ben?

This isn't that embarrassing, but marathons in our heads at the moment, but there is obviously a marathon story where I did the marathon five years ago or so, and we can go into more detail if we need, but I may have had a few accidents. You shat yourself. Shat myself after the marathon. You shat yourself. Was this the year that you nearly died running the London

marathon Ben? It was 2018 I think. So the shooting yourself was the least of your troubles. The least of my worries. Okay talk about this because I remember Deb's telling me about this and thinking what the hell. I did the marathon that year it was very hot. It was hot. Tell us. So in short I guess I'm quite good at talking about it because I don't remember any of it. I think it was a little bit more serious than I've probably come across. It sounds quite traumatic. And Debs was all over this. I guess the last time, I believe she had just been diagnosed. So I was running for bowel cancer charity at the time. So she was kind of on it.

And yeah, I was practicing training. All was going kind of okay, but I probably didn't do the best of training. And I think it was just a bit hot on the day, perhaps I was a bit unwell. It was the hottest London marathon on record. It was very hot, I believe so. And it was also, I don't know if you remember, we were all training in the snow. It was really cold beforehand. I do remember. I remember running in London Bridge at some point in freezing arctic conditions. It was the beast from the east, that legendary beast from the east, I don't know if anyone

remembers it. It was ice, the whole training block was ice and then on the day it was 27 degrees. It's crazy. Yeah and yeah so in short I was running and it was all going not quite to plan but I got to the Big Ben. I remember Big Ben was still okay and then... So that's basically the end? That's basically the end. I think you did run off. It sounds like the end. Didn't you run off from your FF at the time? Well, I'm sorry, my girlfriend at the time, but now wife Ashley. I said, oh, look, I'll

meet you at the finish line. I'm just going to shoot off for the last mile or half mile it is at that point. Between then and there, I ended up in a stretcher down the mall. So you didn't actually finish it? I didn't. Well, it depends how you... Or did they stretch you over the finish line? They did stretch me over the finish line because, I mean, you can Google my name and marathon and it comes up with a load of pictures thanks to Debs. He decided to splatter them all over

the news because she thought it was funny at the time. But yeah, I ended up getting stretchered over the line, unfortunately, and kind of blue-lighted. To be fair, funny, as we're talking about Debs a bit, she, I think she was on the finish line from what I understand. And she kind of saw me and she jumped over the side rails as you can imagine, security weren't best pleased, but she jumped over and then kind of went into the ambulance with me I think and kind of, it's quite amazing actually the medics behind it because they have ice baths

and everything at the finish line. So you can jump in, they iced me up, put me in an ambulance and thank God to the London teams you know they sorted me out quite quickly. I was very dehydrated essentially I was put into ICU, I was passed out for six or eight hours. Yeah like they did brains because they weren't quite sure what it was. I was very fortunate I wasn't kind of in a coma or anything. You were quite unresponsive in that they did scan your brain and stuff to figure, you know, they were worried about, you know, have you had a bleed on your brain or something. But thankfully it was just severe

heat stroke, wasn't it? Dehydration to the point where then all your organs had started to kind of fail. But it was great that, like you said, the guys behind the Marathon and then the hospital, they just sorted you out straight away and you were lucky that they got it in time to reverse it. The hospital is not far from the finish line. No, it's quite early. That's good to know. But not to spit anyone off. It was a bit of a maybe a fluke accident. But you basically hadn't got enough... Electrolytes. So the electrolytes are on...

Key. So you're all ready. They're on the list. All ready. And are you going to take it a little bit slower this year? Yeah, I'll take it easy this year. I think to be honest, out of all the family, everyone is always a bit hesitant about me doing it again.

You know, obviously, touch wood, I won't do the same again. But I think I remember actually Deb said, I think we were thinking about running it in 2022, if we could, but timing obviously didn't work with Deb's being ill, but she was definitely the one who'd say, oh yeah, you can just do it again, it'll be fine. So yeah, I guess five years ago probably didn't think

we'd be doing it for the fund and how are we doing it now? But yeah, I'll take it easy and we'll see. You've also been very prepared. He sent a photo the other day, which I mean, when I'm running just makes me feel like, oh God, like, I'm just not that prepared. You went out, you did like 30 something K this weekend, didn't you? But he sent his image of all his gels, all your waters, like everything lined up. So that everyone knows that you haven't just gone out.

He hasn't just gone out, you know, like every at what time interval you're taking everything, it's all like calculated, you've made yourself electrolyte drinks, I believe. Otherwise I'll just have the family having a rap on me to, you know. But I think this is all, Sarah, it just sounds all quite sensible. It's great, it's really sensible. My question is why aren't you doing that? I'm trying, but I just, I haven't run in like three weeks. So you are going to run it in a poo outfit.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So the poo emoji is the one, do you remember Deborah? She was like in the woods, like behind trees. I mean like when I close my eyes and think of Deb she's in a poo emoji costume I got the same one that she's got small size because it's just not right if it's long It's about raising awareness isn't it as well You're doing a marathon to raise awareness raise money for a kind of vital research And kind of just to continue all the work Deborah started like to keep it going She's done such an amazing job that I was like let's put emoji on it. It may slow me down but my legs gonna slow me down even more so actually let's make the most of everything else I can while

I'm doing it. So I ran a half marathon in it and it was fine but it was cold so like you were saying, I don't know what it's gonna be. I may have to pin a load of holes in it depending on the weather forecast. It's a good ventilation. Yes so I'm gonna see what that's a week I'm going to see what the weather's like and I'm going to then decide what I cut out and how much I ventilate or not ventilate, if it's going to be cold or going to be hot. But yeah, it's going to be the poo emoji that like Deborah, the one that she was always

in. So it would just be nice to kind of guess when I'm feeling really like I can't do this, just it will be on me and I'll know why I'm doing it. I just wanted to talk a bit about your family in the almost three years since Dame. Yeah, I can't believe it's three years. I mean, that's crazy in itself. Yeah. 22, 23, uh.

And you know, haven't you even mentioned the fact that in her last couple of weeks, Prince William shows up at the house to give her a damehood. Yes, yep. That was give mum and dad their due of, I mean, you know, they had everyone staying at the house and then mum's like, Prince William's coming. He needs to clean, he needs to clean, all that. To be fair to her, she was pretty, pretty okay about it, but yeah, I mean, that was amazing that she... What did you give him when he got, did you give him like tea? Did he ask for Ribena? pretty pretty okay about it but yeah I mean that was amazing that she what did you give him when he got did you give him like tea did he ask for Ribena

Deborah we had to do high tea. So Dame Deborah. She was like I mean at this point she was very unwell so couldn't move so was you know mentally still there so there's certain things that she wanted to happen kind of thing, needed afternoon tea. So we had to make scones. We had to make sandwiches. You made the scones yourself? Yep. Yep. Made sandwiches. All the morning. I was really surprised he ate it. He ate them? Yeah. He's a human who likes scones. I know know. What did he, can you tell us, I'm really surprised. Can you give us an exclusive, did he do cream or jam first or? No, I can't remember. I don't know, I don't know.

We must have had both. We'll have to find out. I'm sure mum will know. But how, how are you all? Because, you know, we're here talking about Devs and, you know, so much of this happened in the, you know, she became this, you know, this much of this happened in the, you know, she became this, you know, this

sort of public figure of resilience and brilliance. And but at the heart of this is a family who have lost their sister. You've lost your sister, you know, her kids have lost their mom, Seb's lost his wife, you know, and, and your parents have lost the daughter. And so how are you all? I think, I mean, to be honest, I think time goes by, right, with grief and there's different sides of it. And obviously, it's a crap situation that no one wants to be in. But it's really hard to look negatively across a lot of it when we talk about the last six weeks or eight

weeks and, you know, the huge distraction that that meant and they're kind of You know they've said it herself some of those moments were the best times as a family because we were all you know Going up and down in a roller coaster So it's hard to look from the outside in and think that you're unfortunate in that time compared to everyone who's dying every day Unfortunately of similar things and doesn't get those kind of experiences but at the same time you know as time goes by you kind of keep forgetting or we're running and you kind of, I live quite close to where where Deb's lived and you know, you've often run past the house, you're like,

oh crap, she's not there. So, you know, it obviously hits really hard. But at the same time, I think if you compare it to other types of things or different, you know, unfortunately, going through cancer is a process and you kind of, you grief in my view anyway personally, you grieve before it all happens to an extent. I think it's horrible that her kids have to grow up without their mum, like you don't want that on anyone, so I don't know if the Fung can support like groundbreaking research or breakthrough in cancer care and treatment to be able to give people like more time. I mean, that's great, isn't it? We don't want people losing their mums or daughters

or sisters or friends. I miss the energy, her ability to just make things not normal, like fun. I was quite proud of not me, but my daughter's birthday and she made herself a balloon arch. I've never made a balloon arch. Deborah always made balloon arch. It's that kind of thing. I was unhopeful of this. But it's like, so it's learning to do things. Like, in a way, it's forcing me out of my comfort zone to do some things because she's not there to bring that aspect to life. She was the fun one, like the one coming up with ideas. I remember when she was ill when, actually, it was when she was in hospice at home, we

decided, I decided, I did Google like if people come out of hospice and they do, they can. So I said, it's okay. Tell them about hospice care. Yeah, yeah, I was like, it's okay. You can survive. So palliative, like the end of life. Yeah, if it can reverse. This was six weeks in when she said she, you know, she just kept going and going.

She had a bit of a peak and then I think that's probably normal. You have a bit of peak and then it tails off. I was like, I don't know, you can't slide this, it's okay. And then we were like, we're going to road trip around Europe because she couldn't quite fly. She was a bit on wild to fly. So we're like, we'll go around Europe. We'll go on some holidays around Europe.

So I need to do that. Need to do that one, that's not done. We didn't manage that, that's one thing that, but she managed a lot of like better things things. She went to the Chelsea Flower Show. What one did you take her to? I went to Ascot, which was fun. She managed to do. She liked it. She did so much. Yeah, yeah. And I think she was meant to be at Wimbledon, like, the day after she died or something, and she didn't make it there. So I think her pain threshold must be amazing, because what she managed to do and then yeah you

And you didn't because we were there all the time you did I didn't realize actually you look back and you didn't realize how ill she was because you're seeing that change day to day So you're not really seeing it and then when you look back at some of the photos you're like, oh wow like She was really on well. She was so a lot, you know That's the thing like she she kept herself alive until the day she wasn't like, it's amazing how the body works really, isn't it? Like she, and which is why I'm like, she fought so hard because she was literally doing everything until then she couldn't. I think she also wanted it goes to being open with everything she had done before. She wanted to be pretty open about

dying as well. And it's uncomfortable for everyone. And she didn't necessarily portray that to the world necessarily, but as far as she was concerned, she could still do all these things in those last few weeks. And that's what she wanted to do. And I think she likes it her way, doesn't she? She liked to put her message out. She still wanted to be in control as much as she could be

of what was going on, and she very much stayed in control. The bit that has made it easier. I think like Ben said, I do feel fortunate that she's made such a, such a statement in a way that we've been lucky enough to be able to talk about her. So even though she's not here, it feels like she is. So I think that's been therapy in itself that we are fortunate. We get to do a lot of events like her memory is still alive. She She's very she's very much in living still even though she's not and so that's only a positive like Grateful for that and then also I think it was her plan. She's kept us so busy Like I think she was like right this this this this set this fund up. It will keep mom and dad

It will keep everyone busy I think that was probably part of her plan as well that we don't have time to think about it. Sit and grieve. And her big message was do not be sad, do not grieve, like live life. If you've got life, like just go out there and live it. I think on that note, thank you so much. I'm having a little tea. I thank you for coming and bringing Deb the spirit. I feel like it's so lovely to be able to talk about her and it's a tribute to how fucking incredible she was that almost three years on, we're still so inspired by her and we

will continue to be. And I just want to thank you for also coming and talking about, you know, bowel cancer, wherever you are, Devs. She'll be at the starting line. She'll be at the finish line. Right, she'll be at the finish line having a drink. A massive thank you to Ben and Sarah today. I'm so happy to be here.

I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here.

I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here. It was so lovely to get to talk about Deb's and to continue the really important work that she began with such courage and humour. If you take one thing from today's episode, let it be this, check your poo. It's not embarrassing babes, it's essential. If something feels off, talk to your GP. You are never wasting anyone's time. To find out more about bowel cancer symptoms, early testing and the toilet talk series, head to bowelbabyfund.org or search at Bal Babe Fund on Instagram.

And if you know someone who's been putting it off, why not send them this episode? It can make all the difference.