The Life Of Bryony - BONUS LIVE EPISODE – Gareth Thomas: Breaking HIV Stigma, Finding Strength, and Creating Safe Spaces

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

This week, I’m joined by Gareth Thomas – legendary rugby player, advocate, and trailblazer in the fight to break HIV stigma. Gareth shares his powerful journey from the rugby pitch to public speaking: finding acceptance, resilience, and purpose after a lifetime of feeling he couldn’t truly exist as himself. We talk about how community can create spaces for openness, the impact of stigma on mental health, and why sitting around a real campfire leads to the kind of honest conversations we all need. Gareth also opens up about the profound shift from wanting to disappear to embracing life fully – and how he’s using his experience to empower others. If you’re interested in stories of strength, vulnerability, and the quest for belonging, this episode will move and inspire you. LINKS TO SUPPORT GROUPS If the content around HIV stigma resonated with you today and you would like support, please consider the following charities:   The Terence Higgins Trust: https://www.tht.org.uk/ Tackle HIV: https://tacklehiv.org/ WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU 🗣️ Got something to share? Text or send a voice note on 07796657512—just start your message with LOB. 💬 Use the WhatsApp shortcut: https://wa.me/447796657512?text=LOB 📧 Prefer email? Drop me a line at [e-mail]   If this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who might need it — it really helps! Bryony xx   Credits:  Host: Bryony Gordon Guest: Gareth Thomas Producer: Laura Elwood-Craig Assistant Producer: Ceyda Uzun Studio Manager: Sam Chisholm  Editor: Luke Shelley Exec Producer: Mike Wooller  Special Thanks: Newsworks A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Seriously popular. Hi, I'm Briny Gordon, and this is The Life of Briney, the podcast where we talk honestly about life's challenges and the resilience it takes to keep getting through them. Today, I'm giving you lovely lot a very special bonus episode, which was recorded live in front of an audience at a special event in July showcasing the best of national journalism. Thanks to Newsworks, I had the opportunity to sit down in front of a live. audience with the rugby legend and champion of HIV awareness, Gareth Thomas. In this frank and uplifting conversation, we discussed living with HIV and the stigma about the illness that still permeates society in 2025. I was really moved by what Gareth showed. Happens when you decide to live and I mean truly live as yourself. My chat with Gareth Thomas right after this.

Within the next 20 years, 400,000 people will die from HIV stigma. It's still incredibly difficult to exist publicly as a gay man with HIV. I went from this like a person who had done all this to somebody then sitting on the side of his swimming pool. Drinking vodka, trying to get the strength to put my body into the water to make sure I could close my eyes and have the strength to keep my eyes shut under the water. to die. The reality is the person now I am, I never want my life to end. It's been a real difficult journey

to get here, coming across shithloads of discrimination, as you said, then realising that actually I represent something. I want to emphasise to people is whatever they're in at the moment, whatever they'll go through in the future,

they'll get through it, and they will be the strongest version of themselves, stronger than they ever, ever thought they could be. welcome gareth thomas thank you very much thank you very much i'm very grateful for you coming for the air conditioning um thank you we've just we have literally just been having a conversation about marathon running so i don't know if any of you know but i am an elite marathon runner right why you laugh that was my initial reaction i just admit i like to run marathons in my bra and pants to show people

that exercises for everyone and the benefits of it for my mental health and Gareth just started saying so we were talking about how quick do you run a marathon and usually when people ask me that I'm like how quick do you run a marathon and they say I haven't run a marathon and I say

okay then fuck off but Garrett said oh I have run a marathon but tell the story I've only ever run marathons after doing the two previous events in Ironman competition So Briney told me her time, and then I said, oh, okay, so I've swam two miles, I've cycled 110 miles, and I still do a marathon three hours quicker than you.

Yeah, so we've got off to a lot of it, a very good start. I didn't say it in such an arrogant way. Yeah, so, okay, well, anyway, right, well, let's talk about this trek you just went on. Did you just come back from a time? Oh, yeah, so, yeah, I've just been on a trek. I tracked the 14 peaks of the Snowdonia mountain range which is Snowdonia is the highest mountain in Wales but up on the range there's there's you kind of peaks up

and it goes up and down and we literally in June went through every single season we went up to one point we were up to our ankles in snow can you believe it and we had rain but it's all to do with the campaign the campaign that I run and within the campaign that I run is about not just verbally giving people information about the stigma around HIV, which is a really big, big problem.

It's that big a problem, as an example of the size of the problem that it is, is that as HIV, as a virus, science and medicine means that people who live with HIV can live normal, happy, healthy lives now. But the stigma itself, the stigma and the misunderstanding has been estimated that within the next 20 years, 400,000 people. Now, think 400,000 people will die from HIV stigma. So that's not the virus, that's the stigma itself. And that comes from mental health issues around the virus,

not taking medicine, not getting tested, so many other things deter on that. So why I do these iron men, why I do these challenges, is to be not just the verbal force of information, but the physical. I think sometimes when people say to you something and then the next action is, do you know what?

I'll get up and I'll show you. I think there's a real power in that. So the harder and the more kind of out there, the expedition or the track or the run or whatever it is, then the more people listen. So it was a really extremely difficult thing. But even on the mountain, like, on the mountain is a great place to talk. It's absolutely brilliant.

On the side of the mountain, people are not different to what they are on the street. Like, people will open a gate for you. People will pick up litter. People will say, please. People will say thank you. So to go on the mountain as well and to see people and to walk past people and people ask you what you're doing, it's a great way again of getting across the information. I was going to show off about the trek that I just did as well.

up the mountain, but again, it wasn't as extreme as yours. I thought it was, and then I'm like, oh, it was only... We all have our own snow, then. It's only two peaks, not 14. I just did Copper Trek, which was a breast cancer charity. I just led a team on that, and there was also Echin Sue from Love Island, led a team. And yeah, it was quite a surreal experience. And it was amazing.

And that thing, so I had led a team of 30 women, many of whom had breast cancer, and up those mountains. it was such a, it's different, like you're right-sized by the scenery and the, and the geography and the weather, which as you say, can change in an instant. Yeah. It's quite humbly. And I tell what else about going out like that is taking time sitting down and genuinely this works, it always works, whenever we've done it, sitting down, out in the wilderness, out in the open, out in the wild, light the fire, sit around the fire.

I tell you get people telling things to you opening up becoming vulnerable to you like they never have in any other environment when you light the fire in the middle of the scenery up on the side of the mountain that is an environment to create a safe space I think it's important though

absolutely it's important and people tell you things that in a pub or at work over lunch they would never even consider starting the conversation. They really open up. And actually when people begin

to open up, then it has a really good chain effect that everybody else starts to feel, you know, if you're okay about feeling vulnerable, then I can be okay about feeling vulnerable as well. Should we get vulnerable then? Let's go vulnerable, babes. So I, we've spoken, we had a Zoom before

and I kind of had this idea of Gareth Thomas's you know, you came out in 2009. And then you were public about your HIV status in 2019. And I think of you as this person living free, you know, being their true self. And when we were chatting, you sort of let in that actually it's still incredibly difficult to exist publicly as a gay man. a gay man with HIV. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Unbelievable. The thing is

like I always say to people, right, is first of all, speaking about my sexuality and speaking about my medical status, like I never chose to do. So I don't sit here as this hero who decided one day to work up and try and change people's minds about being a very diverse character and a very non-diverse environment and

trying to change that, or talking about the HIV stigma that I proudly lead the campaign for now. I never, like, proactively got up and thought, this is what I'm going to do. I was kind of, I was pushed into it through kind of external forces that were out of my control. And to get it into my control, to get my own life into my control, I felt I had to. Now, I came from an environment within rugby that was very massive. masculine, very toxic. In fact, I remember one great example about the environment I grew up in was

in a changing room every week, we'd sit down and we'd talk about the team that we're going to play on the weekend, we talk about their strengths, we talk about their weaknesses. And everything that was a weakness, I sat in these changing rooms. At that point, knowing I was different,

but not knowing what my difference was, but kind of having an idea, sat in an environment where the language used about people's weaknesses was extremely homophobic. If somebody couldn't run well, then they'd run like a bender. If somebody couldn't catch,

then they'd catch like a faggot. And I remember at one point, and I'm like kind of chuckling to myself and thinking, you know, I don't want to be different because I can't be different in this environment because I don't know the consequences and thinking to myself, I can't be gay because I can't run.

Like, you know, I can run like everybody else. I can't be gay because I can catch like everybody else. So I genuinely, my identity, so difficult to figure out my identity. And then I went from somebody who's won every trophy that I'd ever dreamt of and achieved all these accolades. I went from this like a person who had done all this to somebody then sitting on the side of a swimming pool, drinking vodka, trying to get the strength to put my body into the water

to make sure I could close my eyes and have the strength to keep. my eyes shut under the water to die. And to somebody then, like, I remember I constantly used to walk along the cliff tops. And I used to go as close to the cliff tops as I possibly could because I didn't have the strength to die. And I don't think I wanted to die. I just wanted to close my eyes and I'll see the world that was in front of being. Yeah. Yeah. And I wanted, I remember just hoping that Augusta wind would come along and it'd be stronger. And then it flipped me all. So I didn't actually have to do it myself. Something else would do it for me. And then I want, when I then found the ability to speak about my sexuality, I then kind of wanted to know what I could be like

just to be me. I got fed up, right? Of sitting in train stations, sitting in bus stops, sitting in streets, looking at people. And everyone looking at me wishing they were me. and I was looking at everyone else wishing I could be any one of three million people. And then when I spoke about it, what I wanted to know, was I just wanted to know what it's like to be me. Like what I could actually achieve by being me.

Like could I still exist? Was the environment going to allow me exist? But also more importantly, like, what was I capable of doing? And then I went from this person who wanted to die without any shadow of doubt or wanted to not exist. to the reality is the person now I am

I'm like I never want my life to end like I never ever want my life to end and it's been a it's been a real difficult journey to get here coming across shit loads of discrimination as you said and and then realizing that actually I represent something I represent him and I if I have if I if I

if I choose to I genuinely can I have a beautiful life now I have an amazing husband I have something that I never thought in my entire life I could have and that's a family

like I have a stepdaughter I have a grandson who calls me Bampi it's like it's magical honest to God it's magical right so I could sit at home and enjoy that rugby

rugby gave me a life that I can now sit at home and and you know sit there and do nothing but I choose and I've chosen to champion that people don't have to sit on the side of the pool anymore like people don't have to walk the edge of the cliff because even though we assume we've come really far and that doesn't exist anymore let me tell it from the stories I've heard it exists still it still exists and that's why I just come on you because when I spoke to you I just feel like there's an element of this that that that is about changing people

perceptions. Well, there will be people, because this is going to go out, this will, this is, will go out live. And there will be people listening or tuning in who maybe are at that stage right now where they, I was listening to you thinking about that. I want to be blown off the cliff. And I remember when I was at my darkest periods, walking down the street, thinking if I could just be run over, you know, then I could just, there was like some sort of end. And there will be someone listening who's at that stage right now. Yeah. You know? And there's such incredible power in then seeing you, sitting up here, not like a legend, an absolute legend, saying that you are now living your best life. Isn't that amazing?

Doesn't that give you all, you know, because it's like the thing that we are most scared of actually can end up being our greatest sort of asset and liberation. Yeah, I've viewed loads of times, right? And I swear, like, I have, I sit here, and I have been on, and trust me, I'm still on a roller coaster. Like, that has had more ups and downs than you can ever, ever imagine. And I always say to people, like, when I get off my roller coaster, like, I'm not going back and ask you for my money back. I'm going back, and I'm telling him it's the best fucking money I've ever spent in my entire life. I am telling you now, like, I'm telling you know. What kind of roller coaster is it?

Is it, does it do? It's off the chart. Yeah, it's off the chart. It's like, is, do you go on roller coasters? Has anyone been on the Jurassic Park roller coaster in America? There's one in Paramount. Me and my husband, Steve, went on it. And we sat on it.

We had fast passes. I'm like, literally going off curve now. But we had fast passes. And we got on there. And do you know in there? We sat down. These things went over us. I looked at Steve like that.

He looked at me. I was like, well, we're on you now. Like, it can't be that bad. Can't be that. And we pulled off at about like 200 million an hour. And we both screamed and went, ah. And then when we got back and stopped, we both went to us like this.

Ah! So it's one of them rollercoursers. Okay, right. Yeah, it's one of them roller coasters. That's the kind of, yeah. Mine's probably like the vampire ride at Chessington. Oh, I'd explain that one to you. I don't know that one.

I think it's more, like, I think it's the one that kids look at and go, that's really scary, but they're allowed on it, so it's not that scary. Oh, right, okay. That's my life. Like, I think everything's really scary. and then I get on the roller coaster, and I'm like, actually, it's okay. But it's... But surely to God, it's God...

And I, you know, I think everyone in... I don't want people, right, in this room to have been through it. Maybe they have, but in their own version of what is the worst thing. And I've heard it a lot of times before, and I swear I am a living example of it. And I try to say to people, because when you're in the midst of the bubble of fear, when you're in the middle of something that you're petrified of,

I swear to God, I swear to you, right? within time, within people around you when you get to the other side you are so much more a better version of yourself than you were previously or in that bubble but more importantly and I really feel this I'm a lived example of this

is I am surrounded by people now that literally have stood with me through the biggest shit storms I have ever been through and you know like when you go through something bad you think oh I wish I hadn't had gone through I wish I could have been different. But when you get to it and you realize and you wake up

and you realize what you've been through, you are the best version of yourself that you could ever, ever be. And people around you are the ones that you want to be around you. So I know it's difficult at times. And I say, you know, there's times where I wanted to close my eyes and never been there. Would I change any of that? Would I change any of it?

I can honestly sit you and say no. Because my life right now, as my life is, there you are i can talk for wales i can't even find a word for it it's like an undescribable it's an undescribable word and you know i just i i want to emphasize to people is whatever they're in at the moment whatever they'll go through in the future they'll get through it and they will be the strongest version of themselves stronger than they ever ever thought they could be let's talk about the can we talk about the HIV stigma yes that being in the fear and to be honest i don't think it's that surprising that you felt fear about coming out or you felt fear about HIV, given

that the, all the kind of AIDS campaigns in the 80s and 90s were hugely stigmatizing. Yeah. And absolutely terrifying. And it was a terrifying time for lots of gay men, you know, there are, you know, it was, it was an awful, awful experience. So, you know, on the one hand, it's like, well, you know, of course you fit, you, you will have felt that stigma. But on the other hand, as you say now, HIV is something that I have a doctor friend who said, I would much rather have HIV than diabetes, for example. It's more controllable virus. Yeah. It's amazing. So let's, can we talk a bit about the stigma? Because I would

really like to be able to educate, you know, if people that, because people may not know, you know, about it. They may not know, A, what people who are public about the HIV status still have to face, but they also may not know the realities of, you know, for example, you've spoken about how some people think that they're going to like get it off food or something. Yeah, Shane knives of folks. Yeah. So it's a really regular occurrence for, for, well, first of all, I shouldn't have to, but to avoid, especially with my family, to avoid certain scenarios happening, I choose to assess the environment that I go into before I enter that environment.

By that, what do you mean? By that, I mean, so me and Steve have often, or as a family, I've often walked into places and can I just say this? So I've got to say this first, right? Because I've spoken about this a bit, right? We're living in the world now. It's crazy, right? Because when people speak about being discriminated against.

and the stigma that's out there, you get discriminated by people for talking about being discriminated against. So I don't say this poorly, and I feel like this has to be like a warning before a film, before something happens, I have to say this,

because I don't say this because I want people to have sympathy for me. I just want people to be educated and to learn and to understand. You're allowed to say how it is. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But I feel like we're living in a world now where people are saying,

you know, you're woke for talking about a factual event when someone's asked you about a factual event. But that's just, but I also think that word woke is just another way of shutting people. Oh, yeah, when they use it, I know I've already won the argument, but it's pointless even arguing with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they don't even know what the word woke means. They just hear it off Pete Morgan or something.

You do know that that was like a word created in the 50s and the 60s, black Americans to stay awake to... Oh, I have no idea what I mean. To racism and injustice. And you, middle-aged white men, now use it. an insult. I mean, you're kind of proving, you know, it's unbelievable. Well, I get called a snowflake lot, and I would say thanks, because I love a little snowflake. I mean, isn't it?

A little snowflake is stunning, like... Is this man, like, stunning? Let me just say, this man who has, like, trillions of caps for Wales, right? And who was publicly stood up and said, I'm gay and I have HIV, I would call you the very fucking opposite of the snowflake, wouldn't you? You're hard as fucking nails. Well, as I say, I don't mind being called a snowflake. Genuinely, I really don't mind.

Yeah, so me and Steve, so we'll go out to, say we go to a restaurant. Yeah. And remember now in the 80s, people thought that you could transmit the HIV virus through sharing a toilet seat with somebody, through sharing a knife of fork, through sharing the glass. And because that, as you said, was so public, is that the site. Science in medicine and the advancements in the science and medicine has been nowhere near as public as the fearful adverts.

So people still have this kind of thing that you can still. So we'll go and it's happened before. It's a sense of discrimination but without actually being discriminative. It's a sense of racism without actually calling somebody a racistly or being a homophobic slur. So I've walked out of a bathroom and there was somebody waiting outside and they, I heard them go over to the wait

and say, can I use another toilet because I don't want to use the toilet after he's used it because of the transmission. I've been with a group of friends and I've actually picked up somebody else's glass and drunk from glass. I'm like, that's not my drink, going to put it down, and you can see the uneasiness and the one to take that glass away

and won't drink from that glass. Another thing that happens, which is bizarrely meant as like a compliment, I think to me and to Steve is lots of people go on to Steve and will be when we're together, like literally in front of me, we'll go, God, you're a hell of a man. You are a star. You deserve a medal. And Steve's kind of like, for what, for marrying Gareth and his medical history. So they're saying it, they're saying it

as if it's a compliment towards Steve and that I'm in a way broken goods. Like you're a sort of leper that he's... Yeah, yeah. I've been I've been spat out in the street. I get... I get and I have been...

What happens when... Because I can't imagine when someone does that, How do you respond or do you just not respond? So that instance, actually it was quite, I found it because I'm, it's impossible for not to hurt, right? So I won't sit here and be this big guy and say it doesn't hurt. But so there are two young lads who, who walked past, spat to me and called me an age spreader.

I just stopped and I opened up my arms so they walked past me one spot like at my chest one spot of my feet they walked past me they waited for a reaction and I just opened my arms and they just kind of like

and that really I kind of put them off because they just weren't they wanted a reaction that was completely completely different and then they started calling me names I was like do you want to hug and then we're not going to have a hug of you

you got you're effing AIDS and I'm like do you want a hug boy do you want to hug and I kind of I killed it there and I walked away and I spoke about it but I but I walked away feeling like

not that it was about winning or losing but I walked away from that feeling like actually do you know what I've won that like I've been a better person and all of that because they wanted they wanted the reaction They wanted me to say something. They wanted confirmation that I was a bad person. And I refused to give the confirmation that I was a bad person.

But what I've learned, and this is, again, is something really important. Can I just so quickly? I want to come and give you a hug. Oh, bless. Because that's so beautiful. And I just, I, I, that story, I, that, like, literally landed straight in my heart. Like, that amazing thing that you just opened your own. self up to them, you know, but you could have hidden.

Again, they made me, they made me feel vulnerable. But also I wanted to show that actually, by being vulnerable, I can be really strong as well. And I can be strong not to, not to react in the way that they expected me to react. So, as you say, the science and medicine has done, you know, amazing things. you know there is no there is no need for HIV to become AIDS there is no you know now unless of course the stigma stops you from seeking help seeking treatment and then of course there's a danger yeah but just to give people an idea of just how because I also think it's really important to encourage people to get tested to you know not be fearful of the results and but even in so like

there you are. So stigma is that much of a thing, right? A friend of mine who actually walked up the mountain with me last week. So she's a middle-aged, white woman, heterosexual, and she went into hospital not so long ago with, I don't know, a pain of some sort. Nothing related to HIV, nothing related, medically just went in to be checked. And she sat in a hospital ward, and the doctor, the doctor, said to the nurse, who is dealing with her, make sure you put two pairs of gloves on because the woman's HIV positive.

Now, she's on effective treatment, which means that you cannot transmit the virus. So even within the medical industry, if you're outside of sexual health departments, where I can say the doctors and nurses within there are the most empathetic understanding, and caring practitioners that I've ever come across with serious knowledge of not just how to deal with a virus or an ailment, but how to deal with people. Outside of there, within the medical industry, the stigma still exists.

The medical industry is not exempt to the stigma. So even when it comes to being tested, like people are afraid of being tested because they're afraid of being seen of walking into a sexual health clinic. I understand right in this room we've all either

had our doing or will do in the future sex is something we all do none of us I'm looking around this room speak for yourself Gareth yet

yeah we'll you know we we're afraid to go and be tested about certain things you know we're afraid of the stigma that comes with being British

and now being able to talk about something that could be transmitted through sexual intercourse. We're afraid and so it stops

so many people going through it and also we have this really like lack of knowledge around the demographic of people who could be affected

by HIV so disproportionately the gay and bisexual males are disproportionately affected but they ain't solely affected you know it's a virus that can and does affect anyone in fact it was I think last year

there was more new cases of HIV among heterosexual men and women than they were amongst gay and bisexual men and that's the first time since the studies that that has been found and that's because heterosexual men and women don't feel that it's a virus

that will affect them so they're don't test for the virus they won't go testing for the virus and also when they go with whether it be a headache or whether it be something where HIV related the doctor that's testing them will actually go through the who list of everything else until they reach weeks and weeks later and then think actually we maybe we should do a HIV test but I didn't do it with you because you were a middle-aged white heterosexual female therefore I assumed that it can't be HIV so there's a lot of

of stigmas out there and myths out there that need to be broken to not only protect people from the virus itself brought from the stigma of the virus because it's also I mean very often don't have any symptoms at all no I know you know what when I got tested positive the scariest thing for me was I was super fit I was still training really really hard and I didn't know I was ill and still I still I started taking my medication And then I got better. So what do you mean by that? So I didn't know I was ill.

So I felt absolutely fine. But it's a virus that can affect you in very different ways. This virus was affecting me in a very slow way that I didn't actually one day wake up and realize I've got a headache. There's something wrong with me. I got a bad stomach. There's something wrong with me. I was just every day slowly, slowly starting to feel. I didn't even know I was starting to feel a little bit more than lethargic, a little bit tired.

And then when I started taking my medication, I started to get better. And then I started to realize I was actually ill, but I didn't know. Yeah. You just got used to a certain level. Yeah. Just got used to being, stayed up late last night. I'm a little bit tired because I stayed up late last night. So I was just finding reasons.

Did deny and man. Justify the reason. Yeah. Yeah. Justify the reason why I was feeling a little bit ill. But this is the thing is that once you start on medication, it's completely undetectual. yeah yeah completely and so you know and again with Steve and and back to like the discrimination and stuff and the stigma like so so many of the people around me are discriminated by their association with me

really oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah yeah yeah like so Steve's HIV negative but he's a teacher in a college right and he's a brilliant brilliant teacher and it's difficult for him at times because he's afraid of the stigma that might come from the students within the cause. My mother and father are the best two people on this planet. My mother and father, people used to, when they walked into a room, my mother and father would be like,

ah, there's Vonny and bars, the mom and dad of Gareth, the Welsh rugby player, the captain of the lions, the captain of Wales. Oh, brilliant, let's go and chat to him. To walking into a bar and somebody turned and going, there's Gareth Thomas. There's Gareth Thomas. He's mother and father.

You know, the guy who's got HIV, that's his mother and father over there. You know, so the stigma that comes with the association of being open. I'm wanting to be authentic in a certain way, but thinking that will that stigma disappear for me the day after I speak about being gay? Or will that stigma disappear for me the day after I talk about my HIV virus? Because I've got nothing to hide anymore. The reality is, the day after is when the shit begins. Right. It's when it starts because you've opened yourself up.

You've made yourself vulnerable. And I'd like to think probably in this room and in society, the majority of people for their vulnerability will applaud. Regardless whether they like it or not, we'll be like, you know, at least I know who you are. At least you've been honest with me. But there is a very loud part of society that will use that vulnerability to want to keep you down. Well, you mentioned earlier.

You say we think we've made huge strides in terms of people being able to be open about their sexuality. But the reality is there are very few sportsmen, certainly, who are, you know, in rugby there's you, there's Keegan Hurst. Yeah, we both retired. But, well, so people think, first of all, then in rugby, because there's beat, well, rugby leagues were in rugby union,

which we had a referee. Nigel Owens because in rugby there's been three professional out of like hundreds of thousands that is okay rugby's great don't remember there was Garth Thomas who retired 10 years really open yeah it's great it's so inclusive it's so diverse oh gosh it's amazing you could be wherever you want to be um because of that but i i always say to people look we didn't people think we're in 2025 right and we've come a long way the reality is is we were in a really really, really shit place. Now we're just in a really, really

shit place. Okay. It's got, it's got, it's got, it's got, but because people have... But you've removed a couple of the really. Well, yeah, well, yeah, only one. Only one. But I think that's amazing. But not me, Tegan Hurst and Nigelowings, the three of us have managed to remove a one really. But you think, like genuinely

in here now, right? We're sitting in a room of, of intelligent people, right? we're in 2025 right sports people especially professional sports people their voices their reach are more powerful than most politicians right like people hang on their words they they demand column inches they demand television time like they can they can be as powerful as they want to be right so we know who they are they have a great standing right and it's 2025 right now out of every professional sports person man every sports man every sports man competing professionally in any sport in the world. So that's probably millions of participants, right? Any sport in the world, American football, American baseball, American basketball, rugby football, all of them, right? Can we in a room of intelligent people name five openly gay participants in male sport off the top of our head? No, we can't, because I sure as hell can't, I know my sport just as well as anyone else.

So to say we've come really far, yet we can't name five, I think that's like an equation for you to look at and figure out that doesn't make sense. Like that really... And do you know what's trouble? I work in a lot of schools a moment. The trouble for girls is the flip side of the same coin. So lots of girls don't want to participate in sport because they say, I don't want to be defined as being gay when they're not gay.

And everybody assumes society has created a stereotype. that if you play rugby or you play professional sport in this masculine sport then the stereotype is you have to be straight if there's anything else it has to be a big splash

women very much kind of the different side of the same kind and let me tell you as a professional sports person and like you with somebody sitting there

doing a podcast right I don't want to be defined every time I go on the field with my pissing sexuality I don't want to be like it's I've got ability I've got personality and people want to

to be defined by that yet we choose sometimes to see someone they look a certain way they act a certain way so we define them on what we think they are rather than what the ability of that person is or the personality of that person but does it so does it annoy you that you're having to sit up here and talk about this stuff um i speak i speak in it in an annoying way is because it's because i feel that people have relaxed like we put our marker in the sand and that's it we're all okay. So I get annoyed that it's not the case. That we haven't had the ability to

be able to progress. And that unions and associations sit down and say, you know, you have to be proactive. Like unions and associations sit down and say is like, oh yeah, we're fine. We're really inclusive. We're really diverse. I'm like, well, show me. You can't get away with it in business.

If you're in business and you want to be a good business and you want to attract the best people, then you create an environment where diversity and equality you understand the importance of it so you create a diversity and environment where you welcome them nothing has changed in sport from when i was a 16 year old kid and sat in a changing room and being told that if you can't run you're a faggot nothing in them changing rooms has really changed and because nobody's being proactive to go in there and say it needs to change

they'll wait until till somebody like myself sits on the edge of a pool and actually has the bravery to do it or falls off the edge of the cliff and everyone will react then and say we have to be now we have to be better. It was like, well, why can you be better? You know, I remember with the union, they called me in and said, we'll change, we'll change, you know, the system, we'll make sure you'll be protected.

Now you've spoken about your sexuality. Is there anything else we can do? And I literally, my words to them were, there's nothing more you can do, but it was a shit load you could have done. I didn't want to sit on the edge of the pool. I didn't want to walk along the edge of the cliff. So be proactive in doing something

to create an environment where people don't have to react, when somebody has had to do something drastic. Do you get people, sports people, who are scared to be honest about their identity, come to you for advice and help? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did become, at one time, I definitely became like this agony ant,

and it was like, it was still impossible. But what I was understanding, right, then I was understanding the pressures, so many other pressures, because to give advice to an individual on this generic thing that becomes so individual to this person is you have to find out.

2025, again, 63 countries in this world is still illegal to be gay in. 63 countries, some of them with death. So if you come from that country or have got trace-ins heritage from that country, then your family, environment, your upbringing, is not going to be inclusive enough

probably for you to be able to speak authentically about yourself if you're gay and be accepted for it you know there's so many things about within certain religions that stop people so what I understood is within the sporting world just like within the world in general there's so many factors external factors that come into play for somebody to allow themselves to be authentic all I used to say to people all the time is that in rugby or in sport or in any form of life, right? You make decisions, when you make decisions based 100% on your own authenticity, whether you get it wrong or right, you learn if you get it wrong, and when you get it

right, it's a real feeling of gratification. What I used to do and what I say to people that they do when they're not authentic is they make decisions based 60% on themselves and 40% on what everyone else thinks, you know, what you think everyone else thinks you should do. So the reality is, is that you'll get to a point in your life like I do now at 50 people like you know people say you're a legend you've done these great things I could have been better

if I either given myself the opportunity of being authentic I know for a fact I could have been better but I never give myself the opportunity better at what rugby or better at making and decisions learning from wrong decisions like if I sat you right

I could I could probably name give me some time like a hundred or so moments months, right? We're in that moment, that split second moment, because it only takes a split second moment to be defined in any role to be defined as being good and being great. Like, you have about five moments in your life that can define your career for being great. And then moments, if you don't accept them, if you don't make them 100% based on your authenticity, you'll never be great. Because you'll get to a point in your life where you look back like I do now in my career

and think I have no idea how good I could have been. Because their moments that I made were based on not my authenticity, but one more I thought I thought I should do. So not trusting your own self-belief? Yeah. Yeah. Not trusting my own ability, not not, not trusting what I'm capable of because I was never authentic. I was never really me. I was always, right, the version of me that's sitting on the stage that I can honestly say I'm being me, right? Yeah. But if you'd have had me before, I'd have tried to be the version of me that you think is best. And also within the I'd have tried to be the version of me that you think is best. I would have try to have pleased ever. Now,

now, the best part of that is, like, I want people to, like me, I want people to listen to what I've got to say, but I genuinely now could not give a shit if every single person in this room disliked me. If everyone disliked me, right, for being me, because I can't change me. Like, this is me, this is me, and I'm comfortable with me. So it's not about going around trying to make decisions that kind of please other people

by doing what you think they should do, doing your own decision, making your own mind up, being authentic about it, learning if it's the wrong one, but more importantly, being like okay about being you, but then that comes with having to not want other people to like you all the time for being you, being okay about being disliked for it. You know, and I think it's a very powerful thing when you can walk into a room and be, and, you know, want to try and capture the room, but absolutely being absolutely okay with it, if what I say and what I do doesn't land

and makes you dislike me, it's like I couldn't give them anymore. I could not have tried anymore and I will walk out of here with a sense of satisfaction that I came here and whether it's shit or whether it's good, whether you decide to never post it or film or whatever, I'd walk out of you

and just say, yeah, I couldn't have been any, I couldn't have been anyone else. Like I couldn't have been anyone else. All I got is me. That's literally all I got. Oh, and what a wonderful thing it is to have, do you think? it is you know it doesn't matter if you're a sports star or you know or if you have ever had questions about you know being true like sexuality or any of like that thing of people pleasing you know is like the great battle i think of every person's like certainly it's my life is like

i'm only okay if you you particularly this woman just here if she's okay with what you know like It's that thing of actually, but all you can do. But I love that thing, that you think of the, I mean, you were a pretty amazing rugby player, but think of how much more amazing. I could have been better. If I choose to be defined by other people's opinions of what I've done, then I'm great. Then I bask in the sun. I bask in their glory.

But the reality is, every morning and every night, I have to look at me in the mirror, like. And I have to be, I really have to be, I really have to be. I really have to be honest with me and I really have to realize that I can't get carried away with other people's opinions, other people's definitions, other people's a bit, like, when it's, when it's, when it's good,

when it's good opinions about you, it's so easy. Yeah. But that's when it becomes hard, reality is, you know, when people don't dislike you, it becomes kind of like easy to kind of be, well, I'm just being me.

But when people like you for your, authenticity, then it's really easy to be unauthentic, you know? And it's all small little things. Like, it doesn't bother me, but I get it sometimes is, how many people in you, this morning, when they got up and put an outfit on, thought to themselves when they looked in the mirror,

or I look good, but I'd better ask someone else if I look okay. Oh my God, I totally well, no, slightly different. I asked my husband if my dress was see-through and he could see my knickers. Okay, is that authentic? I don't know. I was disappointed when he said he couldn't. I said it is that.

Like the masks, I don't know about you guys, but the masks all of us have to put on every morning just to feel kind of confident to leave the house. You know, and I don't mean just makeup, clothes, you know. It's like pretending I'm this, pretending I'm that, pretending I'm not feeling miserable today. And like I get it. I think it's ingrained from us at birth

to be kind of almost open. or wanting other people to like us. Because I'm not saying it's a bad thing to like other people. What I'm saying is the really bad thing is being and doing something that changes you just for other people to like you. Or because you think other people's opinions are going to be negative. You won't do something. You know, you won't wear your hair a certain style.

You won't wear your clothes a certain way because you're afraid of other people's opinions about your authenticity when you know if you want to really you know people always talk about going through your honest path and finding you finding the route that's right for you you will only ever find that route only ever find our route through authenticity you won't find it

through defining yourself by what other people think of you I've got one last question for you and then I want to throw it open to the floor for a couple of questions so get thinking talk to me talking of authenticity talk to me about the Chelsea Flower Show.

Yeah, yeah, everyone's like, why are you talking about the Chelsea Flower Show now? So, a couple of weeks ago, we did a tackle HIV challenging stigma garden in the Chelsea Flower Show. And the reason we did is, because as a campaigner, which is what I define myself as now,

a really proud campaigner, two years ago, we went to the Chelsea Flower Show, and if you're campaigning about anything, you're not campaigning if you're comfortable. Like, if I choose to sit in front of a room, of people who are going to give me a standing ovation

before I've even spoken then that room is not the room I need to be in because they're already on side so you need to be in a difficult environment two years ago we walked on Chelsea Flower Show

and I was I literally felt so uncomfortable there like I felt it was a demographic of people who were going to judge me on my sexuality on my medical status

I suppose on kind of where I come from I had this real imposter syndrome of being in there so I said to the people who we do the campaign where I said this is where we need to have a garden like this is where we need to be because this is the kind of people we need to speak to so we coupled up with a celebrity garden designer he designed a beautiful garden for us which told a real great narrative of a HIV story and a journey and breaking all the myths and we created that garden and what I found was the engagement and the want to know about a narrative behind a garden rather than a garden just being a garden was poorly phenomenal like it was unbelievable and what was so powerful of it is is I can put my hand up and honestly say that the two years previously when we went my impressions of what I thought the people were there was completely wrong right but I had to find that challenge to prove I was wrong. The engagement of people that want to learn

and the want to not go back to where we were in the 80s was so powerful that we'd stand and talk about the narrative of the garden and within a couple of seconds we'd have 100, 200 people stand in, listening because a lot of the people who were there, the demographic or the age of them, had all lived through the 80s. So they'd lived through one AIDS crisis and they either knew of somebody who'd passed away they knew of somebody who worked in the medical industry

who had great empathy with it so there was a real engagement of wanting to learn to make sure that we don't go back to go back to the 80s it was a yeah it was a phenomenal phenomenal success and also oh my God this is the best part of it was

I got to meet Monty Don yeah yeah what was that who was like right up well I don't think he actually knew he met me I kind of like stuck in one of them photos when he was there. And I just tell everyone, look, there's me and Monty Don.

Oh, so you, are you photo box? Pretty much, yeah. Okay, pretty much, pretty much. But that was, is that the highlight of your career thus far? Highlight of my life, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Very close to my wedding. If this is going public. On that note, who has a question for Gareth? Oh. Hi, bud. how can we help is a creating an environment

so that's like allyship right and when I talk about allyship we all know what an ally is right but it's really easy for instance like lots of workplaces now have you know have values that have to live by

expect you to be allies so when I talk about allieship it's not clocking in a nine in the morning and then the boss see you be a good ally and five o'clock you clock out and your allyship stops. I think being a good ally is say for instance,

you go for a drink after work. Let's just say there's five middle-aged white men standing at the bar, having a drink, haven't come from work. And because there's no women there, then someone can be a bit sexist. Because there's no one of any other colour or religion, then you can be a little bit racist.

Because maybe there's of no one of any other sexuality as far as you can be a little bit homophobic. but I feel it's in them moments that as an ally is the really important time to stand up and say you know what? There might not be anybody here who will be directly offended by this but as an ally to creating better

communities, better environments I want you to know that I'm refusing to allow you to say that and to be able to get away with it and to be reprimanded for it. So I think it's in their moments. It's almost like at home. I think people say culture

or generations. I'm from a different culture and from a different generation allows you to say things and especially within the four walls of your own home and people can say whatever they want but if i'm in somebody's home and they're racist they're homophobic they're sexist then i'll allow them to say it but they have to allow me to um to be able to answer them back as well and to be able to stand up so i think it's in it's in moments where people feel like they have the right to be able to say something that's discriminative that as an ally you need to shut it down or you need to know that if you're going to say that then as long as I'm around you won't say it because whenever you're around from there

on in they'll think twice about saying it or they'll realize that they can say it but there's definitely a consequence to what they've said so I think to create environments like that I think is really important and it's tough but it's tough like it's real tough you know when you go out and I've been out there I'm I'm like I've been one of the lads You know And I've been out there And everyone's like Oh I'll just shut up

Like just shut up Just stop it Let us have our fun Like let us be sexist Let's be home of all egg And it's like No I won't So keep doing it

And I'll keep coming back You know Because it is hard You know Because you might lose friends over it But I think the friends You lose When you realize it

When you realize why you've lost them And why they've gone You don't really want friends Like that in your life anyway they should be they should like have one of you at every kind of bar like pop up and go sorry you said what and be like oh my god but isn't it just that like isn't it just that it's like it's all of a sudden people feel i and that's where the reality of people come is from you know so many people in work will say and do the right thing

yeah within within work but again the authenticity of that is so crap because the reality reality is, is if you think completely different and, you know, your mask is pulled off when you're in a place where you feel like you can relax, therefore it's not really part of who you are. The reality of you then is not the real. So even at work, like you have this person who's not going to be very successful at work because you're asking him to do something that will create a better environment for everybody else, yet this person is being really unauthentic because he doesn't want to create that environment. Pink, isn't it pink washing? Is that like a Is that how it's the call?

Hi, Gareth. Hello, Matt. Please meet you. Obviously, I'm a massive rugby fan. And I think you've basically said how you've managed to deal with homophobia and everything throughout the rest of your life subsequently. But how would you say to a man, I don't play anymore, I'm too old and I've always been rubbish. But how would you say to a rugby team, all the things that you've. just said because I thought I think there's still a big problem in a rugby changing room.

Yeah and it's sad within a rugby and again he's sporting changing room right because again society has created a stereotype especially of a male person is that everybody sadly has to be kind of the same on the same spectrum within within that room and all I know is the environment changed when I went from being unauthentic to authentic the environment changed because people understood the consequences of the language

and that's what I was saying earlier about like you know associations unions governing bodies making sure that they're proactive in changing the environment like language like as we viewed up here like a conversation language

is powerful like it's super powerful and if somebody is allowed to get away with being homophobic, with being sexist, with being racist, sometimes just as banter. If they're allowed to get away with it, then they will create an environment that somebody like myself will not be able to be authentic in. And, you know, we want the best, or if I led a team, or if I was a captain of a team, and I've captained rugby since, and the environment was one of, I were the best players. Therefore, to have the best players, I need you authentic.

I need the most authentic players. So I tell you, stop coming in and telling me what car you drive and you've got a bigger car than the next guy to you because I don't give a shit. I don't care. Nobody else cares. Don't come in here pretending you've got more money than the player next to you because no one cares and it might not be true.

So stop this trade-off of product, this trade-off of good, just to try and make yourself better. Actually, the authenticity is what we need. So I'd rather you come in to work or come into the rugby change rooms and say to me, the reality is, do you know what? I got a really big car side and I can't afford to pay for it. And I've got, you know, I've got no money in my bank account. I'd rather you be telling me them stories,

the stories of struggle, the stories of authenticity that really we can have a conversation with, rather about the things you think are impressing us that you haven't really got. so I think is to create an environment. Create an environment is just where people can grow, you know? This gentleman here. Well, that's fantastic listening to you.

And honestly, you feel like more of a kind of Welsh Mark Manson in terms of the huge topics that you're touching upon. Who's that? So he's like a sort of personal growth, going towards the fears you fear the most, relentless sort of authenticity and all of that. These are incredibly powerful topics. So I'm wondering what's next for you,

because you've got, obviously, strong, powerful, personal campaigns that you're working incredibly hard at, but it could be a lot more out there for you. Well, maybe you are doing mate, you know what, as I said, but right, genuinely, I have never been happier in my life. I have never been happier. If, this

sounds a bit more, but if I die tomorrow, I swear to God, I will lie there and I will have contentment. My life has been shit, right? But what I have now, what I have now, I've fought for what I've had now, but I'm so happy. So I know in my life, wherever I go, I'm not

forcing myself to go anyway. I'm not forcing myself to go anyway. Like we were talking earlier, I came in this morning. I'm doing this podcast one because I think she's amazing, right, and is very authentic. But also I think the team around them, like when I spoke to them, there was just like this poor authenticity of what want to do good. So I'm not forcing myself to go anywhere. No way. I have my campaigns that I'm extremely passionate about. I'm a campaigner, which I'm extremely, extremely, extremely passionate about taking that first. that and wherever it takes me it takes me but i'm not forcing myself to anyway i'm not going to look at somebody else and think oh i could be a good thing like that because they're not me like you know

i don't want to be like them not in a negative not in a bad way i just want to be like me i want so i will go wherever wherever my authenticity goes i will go and i will be happy to go there an answer it has been wonderful sitting here and listening to you in this wonderful air-conditioned room yeah

uh garris thomas thank you so much for coming on the life of crying thank you thank you I can't give you another cuddle I think Garris shows us that courage takes many different forms. Sometimes it's running up a mountain,

sometimes it's lighting a fire, so other people have a safe space to open up. Garris was so honest and he reminds us that vulnerability can change minds and lives. If this conversation left you thinking or feeling a little braver, please pass it on to someone else. We might need that hope. Thank you.