The Life Of Bryony - Can Animals Transform Your Mental Health?

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

Welcome to Life of Bryony, where we dive into life’s messier moments.  GUEST: JAMES MIDDLETON This week, I’m joined by James Middleton and his Cocker Spaniel, Inca. In this heartfelt episode, James opens up about his mental health journey and how his dog, Ella, helped him through his darkest days. GET IN TOUCH 🗣️ If you want to get in touch, I’m only a text or a voice note away! Send your message to 07796657512, starting with LOB. 💬 WhatsApp Shortcut: https://wa.me/447796657512 📧 Or email us at [e-mail]. And don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and share the podcast! Bryony xx FOR MORE INFORMATION AND SUPPORT It’s worth noting that we do discuss depression and suicide in this episode. If you're struggling, you're not alone. Reach out to these UK-based helplines for confidential support: 📞 Samaritans: Call 116 123 or visit samaritans.org for free, 24-hour support. 💬 Mind: Call 0300 123 3393 or text 86463 for mental health support, or visit mind.org.uk. 📱 Shout: Text "SHOUT" to 85258 for free, 24/7 crisis text support. 🛑 Campaign Against Living Miserably (CALM): Call 0800 58 58 58 or visit thecalmzone.net for suicide prevention support. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

do you think that they give a shit about this podcast at all and it's all about soccer a to z it's all about soccer a to z yeah but they're gonna get to z at some point and then only hope what will z be welcome to the life of briarney a podcast where we embrace the messier parts of life with no shame and no filters. This week, we're asking the question, can animals transform your mental health? We explore the incredible bond between humans and their pets. I'm joined by the lovely James Middleton, who shares the deeply personal story of his beloved dog, Ella. From helping James navigate his battle with depression to literally saving his life during some of his darkest moments,

we talk about the healing power of animals and how they can become our greatest source of comfort and connection. It's at your very lowest point that you don't think there's a way out. And I look at my life now and how far I've come is incredible. So this week, I have mostly been reading all your glorious, lovely, kind messages about the life of Bryony. And I cannot tell you how much I appreciate the fact that you have tuned in and are listening. I really can't, I do not take this for granted. And the connection that I feel when I read your messages is just, I'm sounding really schmaltzy now I'm sounding cheesy but I don't care because I've had just the most lovely messages from people saying that listening

to Adele and talk about her body and how she'd grown to love it had them in tears in the gym and just loads of really lovely messages and it's really warmed my heart and I know Adele appreciates it as well and so I just wanted to say thank you especially because it was a beautiful counter to the endless trolling I was receiving just before because I had written a column I had deigned to write a column being nice about Prince Harry on the occasion of his 40th birthday. Now I have spoken about it rather a lot of times. I am friends with Prince Harry. We met actually recording a podcast together talking about his mental health. I really have a lot of time for him and I wanted to write on the occasion of his 40th last week, a piece that spoke about the person I know.

Because there's this funny thing that happens. And this is what I wrote about in my column is that when you make the acquaintance of someone who happens to be very famous, and I have to say, I don't know many very famous people. He might be the only one. And so when they ask me what he's like, and then I tell them what I found, there's always this sort of cloud of disappointment that covers their face. Because what I'm telling them doesn't match up with what they want to hear or what they've read about. And I don't see how knowing someone should disqualify you from forming an opinion on them. So I thought I would write a

column just about the guy I know. And honestly, I forget this, that every time I write something about Harry and Meghan, it's like I get a little insight into what it must be like to be them, because the trolling, the abuse, the lunatic conspiracy theories that come flooding into my various social media inboxes are off the charts. You know, people say don't read them, but it's hard not to when they're sort of coming flooding under Instagram posts and into your inbox. Anyway, I feel really lucky because I can step away from that. I can step away from that at any point. I can switch off my social media and I can go back to my normal life as Briony without paparazzi on my doorstep. But I thought, God, what must it be like to be any of that family, the royal family, this thing that you've been born into and you

didn't ask for? And obviously it comes with many, many, many, many bonuses been born into and you didn't ask for and obviously it comes with many many many many bonuses you know you don't have to worry about money you live in palaces but i have to say if you paid me all the money in the world i wouldn't want to live like that where every move i make is scrutinized to such a horrific degree. Like you have to have some pretty strong mental health going on to be able to deal with that. I'm really interested because it really made me think about the way I'm quite quick to judge people in the public eye, other people I don't know, and I can find myself having conversations with people and going, oh, I don't like him or he really annoys me. And then I think, oh, I don't actually know this person. Like, why are we always so quick to think the

worst of someone? I wondered, have you ever had times when you've felt misjudged yourself or where you've been judgmental about someone and realised that you got it all wrong? I'd be really interested to know. I just think it's such a rich source of discussion because I really do believe that when we judge other people badly, what we're doing is really judging the bits of ourselves we don't like. speaking of royals this week we have someone who is royal adjacent and that is the lovely james middleton whose sister catherine just happens to be the princess of wales and i can imagine it can be difficult to meet the expectations that come with belonging

to such a high profile family. In this episode, James has been incredibly open about navigating those pressures, which started for him when he was in his teens. Just a quick heads up, we discuss sensitive topics in this episode, including depression and suicide. If you need support, there are helpful links in the show notes.

For now, sit back and enjoy my chat with James Middleton. If you hear barking during this interview, I haven't had a funny turn. It's because this week's podcast is with Inca, the cocker spaniel. Yes. And obviously Inca's owner, the lovely James Middleton. Inca has her own microphone. I know. I feel like she needs to perform now. But rather than barking, you might just hear some heavy panting.

And just to be clear, that's not from me. It will definitely be from Inca, if it is. How old is Inca? Inca is 11 now, double digits. You have written a book called Meet Ella, The Dog Who Saved My Life. And it is a beautiful book about the transformative power of animals for mental health, specifically your mental health. But I feel like I was reading it and I thought,

this is also a book to me about what it feels like to feel other. Do you know that sort of feeling of like i don't quite fit in and you talk in the book about as a child you weren't academic you had dyslexia which you didn't really know about yeah i we know we knew about the dyslexia but didn't know about the add which was sort of i think the answer to a lot of questions that I had during my sort of upbringing and school career, so to speak. That was a missing link. And once I discovered I have that, it made a lot of things make sense. You have two older sisters who are much more academic and sporty than you.

And you were more interested in tractors than cars. You got a tractor for your 18th birthday, is that true? Yes, I did indeed. A 1953 McCormick International. Okay. And more interested in, I mean, in animals than football. My wall in my boarding house was covered in Land Rovers tractors and dogs rather than sort of perhaps others who had bikini clad girls on their walls.

And I sort of was teased in a way, but actually people sort of started to understand that I was a little bit different in the way that I approach things. And being a teenager at the time, it's sometimes challenging to be different. But actually, I learned to be confident in it. So talk to me about animals. I'm really interested in talking about the kind of link between mental health and pets and pets as therapy there's an actual charity that you're an ambassador

for am i correct you know pets therapy a wonderful charity here in the uk and they i discovered sort of the charity in therapy with my clinical depression and i started to recognize how much ella was doing in my life and what's wonderful is that dogs are recognised as the therapy sort of aid. And pet therapy provide that sort of link between places that need or want visits from dogs because of the recognisation that dogs can produce serotonin. So you're the youngest of three. So there's you, Pippa, Catherine. youngest of three so there's you Pippa Catherine yes and you talk about sort of very much living in the shadow of your sisters who were very kind of academic sporty the impression I get is that

you were always the sort of slightly feral scruffy Middleton feral I think is a probably good way to explain my you know I would always be outside and have dirty knees before I even turned up to school. I would never say my parents gave up when I turned up. But I think they had had the experience of both my sisters who followed the rules and, you know, did their homework and got the sort of good grades and were in the sports teams. And they thought, OK, well, james will just follow along those lines and um and i think a lot of people including the teachers who had sort of previously taught my sisters then i came along and sort of just assumed that i would be the same and um time started to move on and think there's something a little bit different about him he doesn't concentrate quite as much or he's not um i just remember teachers saying just apply yourself a little

bit more and you might achieve something I just remember that applying yourself is such a hard work because I really was applying I just sort of perhaps lacked a bit of concentration and but it didn't mean I wasn't interested in that specific subject I would just sort of find myself daydreaming out the window as the lesson went on and And yeah, I think my experience of school was wonderful, but I didn't think school got the best out of me. I always remember because we've met before and I always remember you using this phrase that really landed with me and really summed up and I think will resonate with a lot of people listening was that you felt at school like a square peg being forced into a round hole and i think that really sums up for a

lot of people neurodiversity actually you know you talk there about being told to apply yourself and you're like but i am applying myself it's just not in the way you want me to or the system thinks i don't think it's just school i think society in itself expects you to be around whole and in a society and schooling was perhaps a little bit more accommodating to the different ways that the mind works and can apply itself to different things, maybe it was when you got to secondary school, I don't know. But are you sure you're really a Middleton? And I was just thinking about how the problem is, is that when we feel like we don't fit in systems as children, that sort of stays with us for the rest of our lives, you know, and we carry it. We feel other. And how old were you when your sister got together with William?

I think I was about 14 something like that so I mean he's been in my life for longer than he hasn't now yeah that makes sense so in but at that time you know I was yeah I was about 13 or 14 which are pretty formative years do you know what I mean so there's quite a lot of pressure whether it's even being spelt out to you or not that sense that you have to sort of be on the straight and narrow and follow a very, you know, well trod, very straight path, you know, that doesn't divert. I recognised this quite early on. I didn't perhaps fully acknowledge it at the time, but it was almost like there's two people as one. There was what people assumed in me. People had made an assumption about who you were, what you liked and how you should be. And then there's yourself and actually how you feel. And that I remember

feeling slightly challenged by because, and this isn't sort of from a media perspective, this is just from a expectation basis of a lot of my peer group going off to university or getting successful sort of exam results and not wanting to sort of be left behind, but equally having the confidence to go and say, this is what I want to go and do. But this is the thing, what I really get from the book is that up to 2016, 2017, you're really trying to do what you think others want you to do almost, you know, like this is what's expected of me. And I think this is something we all experience in life where we try to meet other people's expectations.

And then that makes us miserable. And then we realize we can only really do what works for us and what is true to ourselves. And you reached that point in 2016, 2017, which was a really dark period. You were, I mean, you contemplated suicide, James. No, I think it was brewing for a long period of time. And I think that challenge of figuring out who you are and what makes you happy, but having this sort of conundrum going on in your mind permanently, and you suddenly find yourself as an adult, you've made decisions that are your decisions and you're responsible for and i find myself in this sort of at this dead end and

from the outside you know for much of it looked absolutely fine and normal and and then i had this sort of stigma in my mind of you know i couldn't have depression because i have everything and you're a middleton i'm'm a Middleton. I'm, you know, have been extremely fortunate in my life. And it was with a therapist that the therapist said, you know, that actually depression is almost when you have everything, but it's this absence of feelings that really resonated with me.

And I think once I started to understand a little bit more and also then understood that, you know, depression is not just a feeling in that sense it is a illness and we you know if somebody breaks their arm or breaks their leg we're very good at speaking and chatting about our physical sort of health and our physical injuries but our mental health um you know was was still for me a very difficult thing to discuss because I didn't understand it. And I think there was a stigma about, you know, perhaps the old saying, stiff upper lip, you know, just get on with it. And I was sort of stuck in

this weird place. I felt very misunderstood. And that then made me separate myself from my family my friends sort of everyone um apart from Ella and went on a gradual decline for quite some time I didn't know where to go and I you know couldn't sleep I couldn't eat I was in this constant sort of agitated state I would arrive at a drinks or the cinema and I couldn't stay. I would have this sort of 10 minutes and then I'd be like, I can't be here. I, it was almost like my mind was continually dragging me and wouldn't allow me to rest or sit still. And as soon as I started to fall asleep, my mind would, I'd almost lose control of my concentration.

And then my mind would go to these very dark places. And I, I scared myself during that time. And I think if it wasn't for Ella being around, because she was able to break that chain of thought or that moment that in anything from just her coming to, you know, put her head on my lap and for all just catching her eyes as she was looking at me or, you know, that thinking of maybe she needs to go for a walk.

And it would just be enough to break a dark place that I was going to. She was the reason you didn't take your own life. Because you thought, well, who's going to look after Ella? There was one sort of night in particular that I was in a very agitated state and I didn't know what to do. And I went up on the roof of the house of the flat where I've been sort of a number of times before. And you can see the Thames, you can see the lights of London. It was a, you know, actually quite a nice place to be. You had to get up through a ladder and a skylight. I needed air. I was confined to the four walls of

this flat and I went up and was pacing around. And that's when my sort of thought chain was going to you know perhaps if I sort of disappeared you know that might be the solution to end this constant torture in my mind and I think I was conscious about suicide and how my family would react or and I wouldn't want them to have put that torture on themselves. You say in the book that you were hoping it might look like a tragic accident. I think that was the thought process I went through was I wanted it to be an accident and therefore it couldn't be a point of blame for anyone to have not sort of tried to help

more than they were already trying to help. But I wasn't letting them in. And I think it was this repetitiveness in my mind of thinking like that. And as I was pacing at the bottom of the skylight, it was just Ella just sat there looking up. And in my mind, I think back to that a lot because it's at your very lowest point that you don't think there's a way out and I look at my life now and how far I've come in a relatively short period of time is incredible you know Ella was was looking up and I kept on thinking I couldn't leave her in the flat that I'd double lock the doors how would someone feed her in the morning or later out and how would she manage without me

would she miss me I was trying to sort of all of these thoughts and it just broke something I remember going round and then I'll come back again and she was still there and then I go and it was almost sort of it changed my thought process because I started, rather than thinking about myself, I started to think about her. It was November. It was freezing cold. You'd been standing up there for... I'd been up there for a couple of hours probably, just pacing and trying to work out what to do. And I came back down. I'd scared myself. I think I'd sort of got myself into this mindset. myself I think I sort of got myself into this mindset and I recognized that I think I needed help because I was getting worse and worse I was thinking I could deal with it myself I thought it

would just go away it was just getting worse and it was that that led me to call my GP and that started a chain of events but actually that lowest point was the beginning of a new chapter for me because if I hadn't have recognized that and if I hadn't have broken that thought chain I perhaps you know I don't know but I what I sort of have subsequently learned being suicidal doesn't necessarily mean you will end your life. Suicidal ideation. Yes that helped me because it's not necessarily a question of wanting to end your life. Suicidal ideation. Yes, that helped me because it's not necessarily a question of wanting to end your life or if you have those thoughts. And I think it's important to not necessarily just think if you are suicidal, it's absolutely imperative that

you get the support that one needs. But I think at the time, I'd really sort of shocked myself and that I could have those thoughts. And, and that did, yeah, that led me down the path to, to, to seek help of which was being suggested multiple times by, by others, but I was sort of perhaps refusing to, to acknowledge and accept it. And, and I wish I had knowing what I know now, I think I would have perhaps been able to get control of it a lot sooner but sometimes I think also you have to go to the level you have to go to to reach back up absolutely and for me it was a really important step to unravel everything but also not just thinking oh it's fine it will solve itself and it's a weird thing to say but I'm pleased I went into depression. I never wish it on anyone. But I think it was a really important step for me to change the way I thought, not how I thought, just the way I thought about things and really the important things were there for me. were obviously heading up Heads Together, which was this amazing mental health campaign, which I was lucky enough to be part of.

And you talk a lot in the book about your sisters giving you advice and being like a really crucial part of your recovery. They came to therapy with you. Yeah, for much of the early part of my depression, before I got help, I was pushing them away. And I think sometimes the closer someone is to you, the harder it can be for them to help. And in many ways, maybe because they know you better

than you might know yourself. But that doesn't offer a huge amount of comfort at the time. Once I sort of started the process, I understood everything a little bit more. And it was, you know, that my therapist suggested getting my family involved. And I wasn't quite ready to discuss with my parents at that point but it was with my sisters who I think you know we're close siblings and I remember being in

the room and burst into tears and it was not just because I was sad it was because I felt so much love from them and that was just so powerful for me in that step of recovery because they weren't being judgmental they weren't they were really trying to help and they could have postponed it delayed it they both had their own busy lives and and that they were with their grown-up brother who was struggling and it was a very moving moment that for me I can't really remember what we spoke about but I remember the emotion yeah and the send you know the feeling I had and and the questions that they were asking they were asking questions to help them understand and and that was wonderful to hear rather than just being told and it was an understanding and learning journey for me too

and I think the only one that was put out at that point was perhaps ella who was like but but this is my place to be with you uh ella came to all the therapy sessions too and i think that was in fact she made me go essentially she was my reason for going and i used to go up to borough market and it was a long walk i didn't want to take the tube at the start because i got worried that somebody would see me. Right. And think, well, what's he doing? Why is he going off there? And I always had this. It's quite a level of hypervigilance.

I think there was an element of living around at the time. I was conscious there was a more media interest in sort of day-to-day activity. There was sort of from time to time, I would get photographed. And with someone I was dating at the time, there was the interest that perhaps, I think, made me more self-conscious about being recognized. And, you know, I think when you're feeling vulnerable, you feel like people can see straight through you. when really they can't but they don't understand

they just see somebody but I remember actually having a book and it was a book about depression and I actually got photographed on the tube it's that paranoia that I think led me to just being more recluse like I didn't want to see anyone I always say this the thing that all mental illnesses have in common is that they work by isolating you and by telling you that you're a freak by telling you that no one's going to understand what you're going through and it will take the tiniest slither of look there you go everyone's out to get you i've had that experience you know and so it's you're isolating yourself at every turn really yeah I got no pleasure in anything. There was even the things that I used to love.

I got no pleasure from. And the one thing that I think got me out of that mindset was being outdoors wherever it was. But with Ella and some of the dogs, because I think I was watching them. And I remember it sort of, that was the wonderful thing. You could go for a walk and people weren't looking at you. They were looking at Ella.

Oh, can I say hi? And so it wasn't, it took the concentration away from me. And the more you see the delights and what a dog can experience in just a short walk. Nature's as much a saviour for you as Ella. Yeah.

And the metaphorical side for me, which stays with me and i still use it as with every mountain there's a valley you had some really dark times and ella really pulled you out of that by introducing you to your wife and mother of your child. Yes. No, I... I mean, Ella, literally, this is the remarkable, extraordinary thing about the book is that Ella kind of basically takes you from one life stage into another and then almost feels able to leave when you feel that she knew elise was pregnant before you and elise knew she was pregnant i look back on it and i think everyone says how wonderful being in your 20s or

your sort of late teens and sort of 20s it was awful for me and it's not awful it's just you go through such a big transition from being this sort of adolescent, late teenager, sort of, you know, 18 year old. Early 20s is sort of discovering who you are. And it's really tough. And Elo came with me during that time, such a transformative time from this sort of university dropout to being there on my wedding day and and sadly missing out on on meeting my son in a go but actually the most delightful thing for me is that we found out you know just uh very shortly after ella had passed away we found out that my wife was pregnant and i had such a mixed emotion with it. I was in tears.

I was so happy that we had been trying for a bit of time, and it was just the most delightful news. But then I was like, in Australia, we're thinking, oh, Ella, you've missed out. And then I thought about it, and then I looked a little bit more, and I realized that actually dogs have this sixth sense. They know things. And I'm absolutely certain that ella knew

that aliza was pregnant and we didn't know and she was like okay now's the right time for me to make my exit because she'd been ill for some time hadn't she yeah so she had been she this was in sort of january and ella had been diagnosed in the sept. Then she was given two weeks to live. She was given two or three weeks to live, and I was heartbroken by the prospect of her not being around. But knowing full well that she was 15, she had a fantastic life, and that I was preparing myself for it, was sort of the trigger of wanting to write the book, because I wanted to make sure that Inigo knew everything about who Ella was but

also how not just a dog but she was such a pivotal part he wouldn't exist unless Ella had been in my life and that day that Ella introduced me to Alize was Ella went up to Alize in a bar cafe yeah yeah we were sat on a terrace and I'd just finished a work meeting it had gone quite well I thought I'm just gonna have a drink it was about six o'clock I'm not rushing back for anything so I ordered a beer but the waiter hadn't come out and had the menu with me and meanwhile Ella had sort of moved away from where I was sat and I trusted her and I watched her walk off and she just went and sat next to this lady who had long blonde hair and her back was to me so I didn't see I couldn't see her and and a friend was sat across and couldn't see her and I saw Ella was on her back

legs up in the air and Elisa was still in full conversation with whoever she was speaking to her friend but was sort of one shoulder down with an arm on the floor, stroking Ella. And it made me chuckle. And I thought, actually, I'm still waiting for the waiter to come out. So I jumped up with the menu and walked to get to the bar and walked past their table and just said, I hope that Ella isn't bothering you. And Alize looks up and goes, in this wonderful French accent, No, it's a dog, it's no problem, but we're still waiting for our drinks.

I thought you were the waiter. I thought I was the waiter and went on to order her drinks and then turned and carried on a conversation in French. I was like, okay. And I went inside and ordered the drinks and she captivated me. So for whatever reason, i don't know quite how i had the courage to do it but i went back in and got a pen and paper and wrote a little note and it said something along the lines of but i might be barking up the wrong tree um but i was

wondering if you might like to come for a drink and i signed it from ella and put sort of me in brackets um at the end in my number and I gave it to the waiter and said look you know can I pay that bill please and and I disappeared and I remember sort of saying right Ella we gotta go go now let's go and fortunately that evening I got this lovely message again at that point I didn't know that I'd just met my future wife I didn't know her name and there was something this annoying thing that someone had told me. But when you know, you know. And I was like, that doesn't really help with anything.

It's just stupid saying, when you know, you know. And I remember the next day I was catching a flight. And I was thinking, oh, I think I might know. And I was like, God, don't say that to anyone because it's far too soon i think you spent like maybe two hours having a drink with this person and you know um and sort of that you know early stages of it wasn't even a relationship at that point it was like don't screw this up by being too keen too early on and at least i turned up to our first date in a white dress and i think that's the last time other than our wedding

that i've seen her wear a white dress because with six dogs it's um it's a bit challenging yeah i can imagine so inca is ella's daughter daughter but then you also gave your sister and william their wedding present lupo yes it was ella's as well ella had two litters right and her first litter she had five boys okay and i kept one of those boys and that's my dog zulu and in the hello um i think he's coming up and saying no i'm i'm here not and and lupo so zulu's lupo's brother and then from ella's second litter she had had three girls and three boys. And I couldn't choose between Inca and Luna of my two of the litter. And so I kept them both.

And Luna's the mother of Orla, who is Catherine Williams' dog at the moment. And my other sister, Pippa, has got Raffa, who is from the same litter as well. And also, your dogs are also loved by tennis royalty. Roger Federer borrowed one for a week. Yeah, that was a wonderful sort of surprise, actually. I think I was jokingly saying to his wonderful children that, you know, if they ever wanted to have a dog come and stay, then that's absolutely fine. And Mirka called me up

and said were you being serious I was like well thinking um not wanting to sort of make any distractions and and um and so actually Zulu packed his bag I packed a little overnight bag for Zulu and and he stayed a few nights with them over Wimbledon and to this day they still chat about it so it's wonderful and now they have their own dog and I think it was the experience of having Zulu coming to stay was the big stepping stone in that journey. So animals are clearly quite important to the Middletons, to the family.

Yes, I think the animals are bringing so much. And I think, you know, we often can perhaps take them for granted. And so my answer now is to give back to my dogs and, you know, to make their lives as happy and healthy as they've made mine and i i have so much to thank them for i think we all have everyone who has a dog or or an animal or who has access to one has a unique relationship and that's what makes them you know panting in my face. I love it.

She wants to be part of the podcast. And we want her to be part of the podcast. You said it earlier on in the podcast that during therapy, my therapist said to go and try and say things to Ella. Because I had these things that were in my mind that were so bottled up. And there's a very big difference to having a thought and then saying something out loud and a wonderful way of practicing that was being able to say to ella um how i felt and when i heard myself say it i was like but that doesn't quite sound right and so i'd say it again and then that also gave me the confidence to say some of these things

churned through my mind gone over and over and over in my mind, sleepless nights. And suddenly to say them out loud and to try and explain how you felt was complicated. But the more I practiced it with Ella, the more I got back from it and learned that actually saying it out loud didn't necessarily mean that that's how I felt. And Ella never looked at me any differently. She didn't judge me or give any odd comment or make me feel uncomfortable she just looked and listened and I think she understood I and I'm confident that she did and was able to give me the um little nudge of her nose uh of encouragement and I will always miss her but I've so lucky and thankful that she was part of my life and the path that

I'm on now is very much because of her thank you so much for coming and talking to us about Ella it's been a very exciting process so thank you very much for having me on my thanks to James Middleton for talking to me today his book meet Ella the dog who saved my life is out this week. At the end of every episode, I love to leave you with a recommendation from the life of Bryony. What I would like to recommend to you all this week is a book. And the book is called All Fours by a woman called Miranda July. And it is wild. It is wild. That is all I'm going to say to you. It's about a menopausal woman but it's not really about menopause. It's very sexy in a quite a strange way. Every woman should

read this book. All fours. Miranda July. I would love to know what you make of it when you read it. It's definitely one where you have to get like four or five friends to read it at the same time. So it's a good book club book. Please subscribe and tell your best friend about this podcast. I'd love it to reach as many people as possible. This podcast is brand spanking new. So rating it and reviewing it on your podcast app really makes a massive difference. I'm back on Friday with a bonus edition to answer your emails. You can of course get in touch with me, voice note, text, I'll take it all. All of the contact details are in the show

notes. See you Friday. Thank you.