The Life Of Bryony - Everything You Wanted to Know About Running (But Were Too Afraid to Ask!) – with Helen Thorne & Emma Campbell

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

QUICK SURVEY – TELL US WHAT YOU'RE LOVING: We’re running a short survey to get to know you better—so we can keep making the kind of episodes you actually want to hear. Takes 2 mins, promise: https://ex-plorsurvey.com/survey/selfserve/550/g517/250305?list=3 MY GUESTS THIS WEEK: HELEN THORNE & EMMA CAMPBELL This week, I’m joined by two of my brilliant friends – Helen Thorne and Emma Campbell – to talk honestly about running. But not in the elite-athlete, £200-leggings, nutrition-plan kind of way. This is about resentment runs, running in your pants, and crying in the middle of a 10K. Helen – one half of comedy duo Scummy Mummies – only started running at 39. She’s now completed nine marathons and all six of the world’s major races. Emma is a writer, a mother of four (including teenage triplets), and a secondary cancer patient who discovered running in the middle of chemotherapy. Together, we talk about why running feels so hard to start, how it can help you heal, and the joy of doing it imperfectly. We cover everything from chafing solutions to playlist rituals to learning how not to give a toss about what you look like in lycra. Whether you’re already a runner or the idea of jogging makes you break out in a rash, this episode is a celebration of movement on your own terms – and of the strange magic that happens when you put one foot in front of the other. LET’S STAY IN TOUCH 🗣 Got something to share? Text or send a voice note on 07796657512—just start your message with LOB. 💬 Use the WhatsApp shortcut: https://wa.me/447796657512?text=LOB 📧 Prefer email? Drop me a line at [e-mail]. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone who’s been too scared to start—or someone who just ran their own race this week. Bryony xx CREDITS 🎙 Presenter: Bryony Gordon 🎙 Guests: Helen Thorne & Emma Campbell 🎧 Content Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan 🎥 Audio & Video Editor: Luke Shelley 📢 Executive Producer: Mike Wooller A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is the Life of Briny, the podcast where we talk about life's big beautiful messes. And today's episode is all about running, but not in a scary, intimidating, Olympian sort of way. We're talking about the real stuff, why it feels hard to start, why it's even harder to keep going and what happens when you finally find your rhythm. Joining me are two brilliant women who happen to be my friends Helen Thorne and Emma Campbell who have used running as a lifeline through some of life's toughest chapters. Helen is one half of the iconic scummy mummies and started running at 39. She's gone on to complete all six world marathon majors. Emma is a writer, cancer survivor and single mum to teenage triplets. She found

running in the middle of chemo and hasn't looked back since. Just because we've fallen in love with running and it's enhanced our lives in so many ways, I for one certainly have long periods where I resist it. But then when it comes back, it's even sweeter than ever. So this phase I'm in again now is just joyous. Everything you wanted to know about running, but were too afraid to ask, coming up right after this. Hi, Producer Jonathan. Hello, Presenter Bryony.

How are you? Well, I'm really good today, but I imagine that this has been recorded ahead of the actual day. Obviously, we don't go out live. And so actually, when this goes out and when people are listening to it I hope that my legs are going to be, that I'm going to be exhausted and lying on a sofa somewhere post running the London Marathon. How many London Marathons have you run by the way? Well hopefully this will be my third marathon. Incredible scenes. But I have had to pull out of five before I get to, so I did one, I did two, and then my third marathon has been hard,

hard, hard, hard, hard, one, and I don't even know, and I'm sitting here saying, I don't know if it has been one, because I'm still a bit injured, and it's only three weeks before. But all that said, the thing I get asked about the most by people, the content that I share on Instagram that resonates with people the most is when I take my clothes off and I go for a run and

I wobble my cellulite about. And I get so many messages, how do I start running? Where do I get a sports bra for? What do you do about chafing? You know, like so many messages. And I did a little poll on Instagram the other day of my followers. And I said, do any of you like really want to run, but you're too scared to start? Tell me what is it that scares you the most?

And I was blown away by the response. So many women got in touch and said, I would really like to, but I'm scared about the way I look. I'm scared about that I'm going to be too slow. I'm scared about my safety. Like there were so many reasons. And I thought, right, I'm just going to do a podcast about this, a podcast about running. That isn't me sitting and interviewing two like elite athletes. Yeah, not very relatable. No, there are loads of podcasts out there with elite athletes, people that do ultramarathons, you know, like the real kind of professionals.

Yeah, hardcore. But that isn't in itself very helpful if you're a woman with kids or, you know, who just wants to get going. And maybe it's not even running, maybe it's, you know, some other sport, but because of the way that, you know, sport has so often been presented to us, especially as women, you know, it was always been about making yourself smaller. Yeah, it's been about, it's been about punishing yourself. Yeah. And for me, I've said this many times before, the moment that running and exercise changed for me

is when it started to be about the gains and not the losses. And what did you gain? What were the gains? The clarity, the time to myself, the belief in myself, actually. And then also, when I started doing it to nourish myself and not punish myself, that was a big thing as well. And I switched exercise around and it wasn't about how it made me look,

it's about how it makes me feel, you know? But I really wanted to dig into that and basically put together everything I know about running so that if you are listening to this, I can guarantee that by the end of this podcast episode, you're gonna wanna get some trainers on your feet and go out and do it. This podcast is gonna give you the motivation

and I'm doing that not by speaking to experts, not by speaking to elites, not by speaking to longevity wankers. I am talking to two real women just like you who have hard lives, difficult lives, who are just trying to do their best and have discovered running and taken it to incredible levels alongside their normal busy lives as mums. And they happen to be my friends. I love that. I mean, I love that we're just getting guests

by poaching on WhatsApp, which I love. Yeah, no, but Helen Thorne. Amazing. One half of the scummy mummies, very funny. And then Emma Campbell, who is a friend of mine who I run with all the time. And I wanted to get like real women in to talk about how running had transformed their lives, because

that to me is far more inspirational than some young Olympian. From early morning workouts that need a boost to late night drives that need vibes, a good playlist can help you make the most out of your everyday. And when it comes to everyday spending, you can count on the PC Insider's World Elite MasterCard to help you earn the most PC optimum points everywhere you shop. With the best playlists, you never miss a good song. With this card, you never miss out on getting the most points on everyday purchases. The PC Insider's World Elite MasterCard, the card for living unlimited. Conditions apply to all benefits. Visit pcfinancial.ca for details.

If you liked this episode, we think you'll love this. I'm Sarah Vine. And I am, and continue to be, and hope to continue to be, Peter Hitchens. And this is, alas, Vine and Hitchens, asking all the big questions this week. The scourge of television, one of the terrible disasters of civilization, which has wrecked so

many minds and imaginations. And the scourge of HMRC, which has wrecked so many people's nerves and bank accounts. Made them feel so awful they wouldn't go and watch television. Do join us wherever you get your podcasts. If you love these chats as much as I love having them, why not make it official? Hit follow so you never miss an episode. We'd also love to know what you're thinking about the show. Click the survey link in the show description to tell us more. It only takes two minutes, I promise. Can you tell us about your running journeys, Emma? Okay, so my real true life-changing running journey began in 2019.

Really thanks to you, we have to be honest about that, that's the last compliment I'm going to pay you, when I got my third cancer diagnosis. So before that, in my 20s, 30s, I'd done the kind of, oh, I'll throw myself around the common to shrink myself and I'll, you know, the kind of punishing runs. And then when I got my third cancer diagnosis in 2019, and our paths had crossed, and you, I'd started new chemotherapy, which is not a time that you would think one would then – Start exercise.

You know, start embarking on a new fitness venture. It's just about staying alive. And you said the first time we met for coffee, do you ever go running? I was like, well, sometimes, not for a while. Should we go for a run? And that was it. And it really, in a very brief nutshell, 2019 was on a physical front for me, was, you know, a mastectomy, lung surgery, chemotherapy,

all of all that comes with that. But it was a transformative year in so many other ways because I also found running our friendship was a huge part of that and falling in love with running and dealing with my body and looking at my body and accepting my body in a different way in a new way alongside. I remember it was just we did 10k one morning Yeah, it was like the day before you had a lung surgery Resection so you had a bit of your lung. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and then I remember in the Autumn I think it was we did the Great South Run before my mistake 10 miles and then the next day you went in for your

Misectomy. Yeah, it's incredible I know but it's like, you know, and and it's not about so it's not about kind of going oh I'm such a hero so amazing but it really was my mindset and the way it helped me get through a really difficult on paper really really challenging year. No but it actually turned out to be it's a really it was a magic it was a brilliant year as well as a really deeply challenging year. Helen let's talk about your running journey which I haven't been there step by step on because I've not run 87,000 marathons unlike you.

Well, mine started just before I turned 40 and I thought I should sort of move my ass a bit and so I signed up for like a race for life, which was awesome in Crystal Palace. And you know, I was doing, I'm part of a double act called Scummy Mummies and we still do wear gold cat suits. And I thought, I know I'll wear a pair of like gold leggings, which I got off like Amazon. So they're basically made out of plastic bags. And so I did my first run. So sweaty.

And there was no like stretch in them or anything. But I was like, that's my signature look and back then you know I was a size 18 to 20 I had glorious massive boobs and I was sort of wiggling and jiggling everywhere but I loved that first race because I was like it was all women and people cheered and I remember that was like 37 minutes and that was my PB I felt alive and then I did a few more things plotting, plotting, plotting and then you Brian and Gordon, I remember calling me, I was at a hotel and you said, I'm thinking about running a marathon in my pants and if I can run a marathon so can you and I was

like, yeah why the fuck not, I could do that and so signed up and but that then turned into I think Celebrate You which was the big 10k. That was my first 10k. 2019. 2019. What a year ladies. Wow. It was a year that real elite athletes were born. Yes, exactly. Something was happening. So at the sort of beginning of 2020, I was signed up to do the marathon and then the big lockdown happened in the March but also my marriage collapsed and I found out my husband had been having an affair and I was just on the cusp of doing a marathon. So after that event of my life kind of being blown up, I kind of really got back into smoking and drinking

quite heavily, quite to professional standards. I would say almost Olympic standard self-destruction. Marathon standards. Yes, yes. I was doing my own. Yeah, I really was logging a lot on Strava, you know. And then I thought I really have to turn my life around. So, 2021 was my first marathon. That's where I sort of started choosing my health a bit more. And that, yeah, and now I've done nine. When I asked on Instagram what puts people off doing marathons, doing or just running generally.

So that's like, don't even like doing a 5K, doing 1K. They're worried they're not fast enough, okay? And I wanna kind of go through this bit by bit, talk about all the things that put people off so we can kind of dismantle them and tell people that they don't need to worry about this stuff. And pace is like one of the things I remember

when I did my first marathon. Afterwards, everyone was like, what was your marathon time as if they were like wanting me to produce a certificate to prove that as an like size 18 to 20 woman, I had done a marathon. Yeah. And I was like, what's your marathon time? And they'd be like, Oh, I haven't done a marathon. I say exactly fuck off then. Yeah. So like, I my my marathon time, I've only done two marathons right, my first marathon was five hours 53, I think fucking fast. That's really good. In my mind I think I run really fast and then I look at my watch and I'm like it tells me otherwise. It tells me that way. You lie. I'm like this went really quickly and yet. And then my second

marathon which I did in my underwear with my friend Jada, plus size model, do you know how long that one took us? Seven and a half hours. We were basically fucking about, pootling along. And all I will say is don't compare yourself to anyone. Like it's not other than yourself. Are you doing, are you moving more than you were last week? Absolutely.

100%, it's all the cliches, isn't it? But it really is why you're doing it. And if it makes you feel better, if it makes you feel more alive, more connected, helps you put things in perspective at the same time as raising your heart rate and, you know, having a spring in your step, then brilliant. It's just, yeah, there are so many positives and very few negatives, I think. So this episode is coming out the day after the

London Marathon, also the Manchester Marathon, I think. Yeah. We're going through like a marathon season at the moment. So there's, there might be a lot of people who have either gone and watched these marathons, which are, and just to say, like, even if you don't want to run a marathon, I would go and watch one in your local city because they're always such uplifting things. Hopefully, by the time this podcast comes out, all three of us will have just run the London Marathon. Helen, I wanted to talk to you about this, is that your first one took you 5.56, but you have also got 4. Yeah. And I think that there is something in running that is like the goal is yours to choose and it can keep moving.

And it's not like you go in and you do couch to 5k and then you've completed it and you're like, well, I've completed running now. What am I going to do next? Like you can then go, I'm going to do a 10k, I'm going to do a half marathon or I'm just going to, or maybe I'm just going to try'm gonna do a 10k. I'm gonna do a half marathon or I'm just gonna or maybe I'm just gonna try And get a class to 5k and then you might find that life makes it hard to run for a bit So then you have to start again from the beginning, but the joy is exactly the fucking same Absolutely, and my my catchphrase is everyone gets the same medal and you'll always win gold in your own Olympics

Yeah, you're the star of your own show and I'm unbearable after a run. I'm so happy. I'm just like, this is glorious. I'm outside, even if it's raining you feel like you've been a badass but if it's sunny like it was this morning. The euphoria that I have felt on a handful of particular, I've got probably three or four runs that I can remember in such vivid detail because unexpectedly they led to the most all-encompassing feeling of euphoria. And for me, I find a run, it's often there's a period of time in the run where I'm kind of reflecting and thinking about things.

Then I find myself kind of, oh, what's going on right now in life? And then sort of in the, it almost feels like whether it's a five, 10, 15K, then I find myself kind of, oh, what's going on right now in life? And then sort of in the, almost feels like whether it's a five, 10, 15 K, then I'm kind of forward thinking and I'm thinking, I suddenly get these ideas and I get this feeling of expansion and I feel like I could take off. And again, that might be me with really slow pace, stopping, starting, having forgotten to take a gel or eat breakfast or in my own stumbling way, wearing the t-shirt that I've slept in the night before, you know what I mean? There's no slick kit in my world.

But it really is the clarity I think it gives us. What did it give you in terms of confidence in terms of your body? So I was first diagnosed with breast cancer in 2010 and then I got a recurrence at the end of 2014 and then another recurrence in 2019. So secondary breast cancer patient for life for 11 years nearly. And as I've often talked about my fear levels and worst case scenario way of thinking dominated for a very, very long time. It's really detrimental effects on my mental health. And so the running was so pivotal and had such a part to play along with other things, but it was such a pivotal part of me beginning to look at life in a different way. And I will share the story of a particular day that you and I, it was like, I think it

was a Monday morning and I'd had to have an MRI scan on my liver about a week before and I knew that my oncologist was calling that morning and we'd met for a run and I think we'd done 10k and if I remember correctly we were running down on the homeward stretch to our little coffee shop and you know we were talking it through and of course I was ramped up here with the kind of what if what if and the phone's gonna call any minute no caller ID and you said and I really remember this moment, you said, Emma, whatever happens with that call, whatever the outcome of the call is, you've still just run 10K. And I took that to mean kind of, yeah, nothing, whatever the news is, and thankfully it was

good news, I wasn't suddenly going to fall on the floor and presenting as a deeply unwell person. Do you know what I mean? It just made me kind of really connect with the parts of my body that had nothing to do with cancer and it helped me diminish. Okay, whatever's going on with those rogue cells somewhere, maybe, please not, but maybe they're not here, they're not in my legs, they're not in my calves, they're not in my arms, they're not in my heart. And you know, that really was a liberating way to start looking at it. That's amazing. Helen, also, I wanted to ask you about, so your first marathon

came after the breakdown of your marriage. Yeah, yeah. And people often say they talk about, you know, running and how hard it is and how they don't like it. And I think that the hardness of it is kind of the point of it. Because you get to wake up in the morning and you get to choose your hard, you get to choose your version of hard that day. This also kind of relates, I think, to a cancer diagnosis. Today, I get to choose how the hard shows up. It doesn't get to choose me. I love that. Did you find in your darkest moments, like I always remember my first marathon at like

mile 21 when I thought, there's never going to be a time I'm not running this marathon. Yeah. And then I thought, oh, babes, you've been through some really dark times, like buck up, like people are shouting your name and giving you Haribo, you know? And like, is that a side of running that appeals to you both? Yeah, I think when you've gone or you've overcome something really hard, I think there is a new faith in yourself and there's a new, I don't know, it's, yeah, having gone through something so like my whole world got crushed and everything I was looking forward to or thought was real, especially

when you're going through an affair, when your past gets thrown up, you know, what you trusted and all those sort of things. I had to sort of redefine who I was. I was now a single parent, as you would understand, you know, a single person. And so all those things of thinking I'm not a runner or I'm not this, I'm not that, I had this sort of blank canvas. I could sort of reinvent myself. And I think overcoming hard things, running helps so much in that because I did like talking

therapies for quite a few years, but actually I found when I went out for a run, I could clear my head and I could feel stronger in myself. But yeah, I think there was some Instagram meme about people who have gone through hard things, have got a higher threshold for pain, but also developed this strength within themselves, which I didn't know I had. And if someone said to me five years ago, because it's five years since all the bad things happened, that you're going to go on to run 10 marathons, I would have fallen off my chair. I could never have visualised myself being who I am now. And now I can't even think about a life without running.

Whereas I think... It's weird, yeah. It's really interesting and I watch what you share and obviously we all know each other, but you've consistently seemed to have run since that discovery and real kind of change whereas I've had long periods of not running and when my marriage ended I actually went through a long period of I think my state of mind was so bleak and so dark that it was that kind of hopelessness what's the point which is interesting if you think of living

with a potentially life-limiting diagnosis or huge physical challenge. I never had that feeling with my cancer because I had such a clear why and such a clear sense of purpose and I'm gonna go into that lung surgery strong and I'm gonna give my lungs the best chance or thinking of the people that we've lost and that you're running I'm I do so much kind of running with them with you know

those dear friends with me but when I was going through that intense and prolonged heartbreak and you would say we don't have to run we'll just go for a walk and a coffee and there were just months and months where I just couldn't so I and I think it's really important to be honest about that just because we've fallen in love with running and it's enhanced our lives in so many ways, I for one certainly have long periods where I resist it. But then when it comes back, it's you'll love this. I'm Sarah Vine. And I am and continue to be and hope to continue to be Peter Hitchens.

And this is Alas! Vine and Hitchens, asking you all the big questions this week. The scourge of television, one of the terrible disasters of civilisation, which has wrecked so many minds and imaginations. And the scourge of HMRC, which has wrecked so many people's nerves and bank accounts. Made them feel so awful they wouldn't go and watch television. Do join us wherever you get your podcasts. I always had this idea that everyone I saw running around the park or whatever, I was

like that they all woke up going, oh my God, I can't wait to go for a run, you know, like, let me at it. And I think that beautiful realization that like no one wakes up and wants to go for a run, but no one regrets going for one. And you've got to, you know, and it's that thing and yeah, and there will be periods of your life where you can't do it. And I wanted to talk to you about that because you have not only did you have this diagnosis and it's that thing and yeah and there will be periods of your life where you can't do it. That's okay. And I wanted to talk to you about that because you have, not only did you have this diagnosis and a divorce, you are also the mother of triplets.

She's done, every time you say the word. Well I know because I only have one child, right? And you know the idea of you know like having to juggle it all and there will be a lot of people this evening watching who are like I can't find the time life is too busy so tell me Emma how do you make the time? Well they're older now the triplets are 15 and my oldest son is 21 and in the brief periods when between the first and second diagnosis when I was physically strong and I was running it quite frequently very differently to now,

but it was very much a, right, someone, oh, my sister's popped around or a neighbor's popped around, right, I'm going up and I whizz off for half an hour. Now it is easier, of course, because I can leave them in the house. And actually, can I make a confession? Yesterday, you know, it was a Sunday, Sundays can be quite tricky. And I went for what I've now decided I shall. I went for a resentment run because I because I've named it. This is a resentment run because I was feeling, you know, the day wore on. I was feeling my mood was plummeting. I was feeling more kind of like, you know, Marta Mom, Paul. You were resentful that your teenagers were in bed and not lavishing with you with daffodils. Yeah, I was feeling a little bit unappreciated and it was a beautiful sunny day and there

was lots to be grateful for, you know. But I just thought I'd just go for a bloody run, just go for a run and I knew that otherwise I was just going to get more and more grumpy, more and more ratty, probably start crying and be very adolescent myself. And actually I just went for a 45, 50 minute run and it was amazing. It did help and I thought that's okay. it can be a resentment run and still be a positive thing I love the idea I think it's a really good idea I also I quite often find myself recently like crying on runs yeah it dislodges something

yeah maybe you know just like grief or whatever you know like I don't know like I find myself it's the time that I find my brain sort of like clears. Do you find that, Helen? Yeah, there's no distractions. And sometimes it is about facing, facing the shit and facing you're like, Oh, God, and I am the biggest procrastinator and fafa when I've got a Sunday run, I could spend six, at least six hours not doing the run. Even though you've got your kettle on and your bath stow. I've done that before and just like but I know I'm like no no no face it I a friend of mine told me this great fact the other day that water buffalo stay with me. Where's she going? Water buffalo when they see a storm they

run towards it rather than run away for it because they know the bad things will get over and done with quicker and I was like right I need to be more water buffalo and I love that kind of analogy because I you know there are letters from HMRC on my desk for a week before I have the fucking big girl pants to open them. I'm really can be a bit fearful and especially because I've had lots of bad news in the last few years sometimes I'm like I don't have enough in me to face the really hard shit today but then I know it's not going to be just do it you silly bitch.

I've made myself a water buffalo. Actually that is a really good tip as well for anyone listening that, you know, like get it out the way. Yeah. Do because if I don't know about you, if I don't go, if I didn't do my exercise first thing in the morning, it weighs over me all day and then I just feel terrible because I'm not doing it or I'm thinking about it. So I like to just get up and go. But everyone's different. Yeah. Everyone has different times and I think that's really crucial like if you want to first of all when you want to start running do it at a time that works for you. The morning runs are fantastic but then I realized especially knowing that I'd signed up for the marathon the resistance was just building because I do need

my sleep and I do naturally I could sleep till midday if you know if I was left alone. You're a teenager. I know. I know. I always stay in bed till midday. You know, in my cups of tea. So my feeling was I just don't want to set me alarm on a Sunday morning whereas I thought I don't have to. Emma. I don't have to. So it's been quite liberating. So this morning was a lovely early run, yesterday I went in the afternoon, the resentment run. I think it's quite nice to think, oh, I've been for a couple of late afternoon sunset runs and they've been mind-blowing, especially at this time of year. But again, I think it's true and it's only with confidence and like anything in life,

we think, no, it's okay for me to change my schedule to suit me and not, well, that's what I do. I do that. Do you know what I mean? It's like to actually what do I need? What suits me as for this running schedule, for this busy phase in life, whatever. We take our time to have these realizations. So rather than give up and go, well, I just won't do it. It's like, no, you just shift, pivot, pivot from the morning to the afternoon. If that's what feels right

on that particular day. But I also, as I've been listening to you two talk, I've been thinking about how the gains of running, as opposed to the losses, which is making yourself smaller, doing it for those reasons. And I remember the thing, Helen, you spoke about the moment you went from choosing cigarettes

and alcohol to choosing running. And it doesn't have to be an either or, just FYI. It kind of has, for me as an, this alcoholic, it has had to be. But anyway, but I remember for me, I did my first marathon in 2017 and I signed up to do it thinking this will stop me drinking so much. And I stopped drinking while I was running the actual marathon, but it didn't like I would go and run a long run and I'd be like, oh, I've just run 10 miles. I'll have 10 pints of lager.

I deserve it. And my husband's like, yeah, I don't think that's how it works, Brian. And I'm like, no, I think this is how it works. I've nailed it. Yeah. I know. And like that first marathon I think this is how it works. I've nailed it. Yeah. I know, and like that first marathon I did, like it was nuts.

And the year later I did the marathon again, and I was sober by this point. So I'd gone to rehab shortly after that first London marathon, because it was really was a moment where I worked. I was like, there's a different way I could be living my life here. And there was something amazing about each,

following this program and each week, seeing my body getting stronger and having confidence that my body could do a little bit more than it thought it could the week before. But anyway, the next year I did the marathon again and I thought it would be so much easier because I'm like, I'm not drinking and it was so much harder and I realized the power of booze. Like I was literally running towards a bender that last that marathon. I do think that that is something that I love, like listening to you, that idea of like being able to, especially in your 40s and your 50s, when we think that are like, you know, I never imagined that at the age of 44, I said this earlier to producer Jonathan, I was like, I'm fitter

than I've ever been in my life, you know, and I'm like, I weigh like 14 and a half stone, 15 stone, you know, and I'm 44. And I am, you know, objectively fitter than I've ever been. And there's something really empowering about that. As a woman, isn't there? Because we're like in the first decades of our lives, it's all about I need to look good, I need to like be you know I need to be thinner and smaller and then it's like no I can just be... But also as well it also to be really honest you know I struggle a lot I've struggled a lot recently with with how I see myself you know how I see my body and how am I seeing myself as a woman and my kind of, you know, in all those ways, and

particularly having had a lot of surgery and reconstructions and lots of scars and things and kind of thinking about potential one-day new relationships, whatever. And so running doesn't instantly kind of stop you having those negative thoughts and that kind of even self-loathing sometimes. You catch sight of yourself as you're running past a reflection, you think, oh, God. But I suppose, why am I saying that? I'm saying that because we're still in our own heads, but it does help really turn down the noise.

And you just always, always connect, even though you might be battling with those negative, embedded thoughts which don't serve you, there is still a feeling of I'm strong you know when I get back from a run and I get in the by sort of stand in the shower I think I'm strong you know and that is a brilliant feeling even if I can't always hook into that. Well let's talk about that because another reason that lots of people said to me that they were too scared to run was because

they're worried about what they're gonna look like. And that's really I mean like it's a real thing. That is so key I mean, I grew up in Australia where, you know, sport and looking thin and tanned and wearing as little as possible was champion. And I was always a big girl. Like, I was, I was hefty. I always had really strong thighs. And I always felt I will never be that thin. I'll never be that pretty. You know, I'm chosen last for the sports team. And so that little girl is still very much inside of me. And when I started running, I was just horrified.

You want to hide in the parks because I felt ashamed. I felt like, oh, I'm not a runner, I'm not this, I'm not that. And it took a while to turn that around saying, I am a runner, I do deserve to be here, just like everybody else. And, but I understand that fear, and I know people say, oh, I'll only run on the treadmill. And there's also obviously safety things, and I get that.

But I would say, what really transformed me was finding online communities of other female runners and following people on social media and things like that. And there is a cheer squad readily made for you out there. And there's a great, there's a Facebook group called Slow As Fuck Runners and all sorts of things. And I just think, but I get that fear because you just sort of think, oh, I wobble and I move and I don't look right.

But I must say, you know, concentrating on the feeling rather than what you look like can be really transformative. And I remember you telling me, Brian, about the first time you went for a run and what you wore. We were like in jogger bottoms and like converse and oversized t-shirt. Yeah, yeah. But like I also think that that is why I like... We were like in jogger bottoms and like converse and oversized t-shirt. My sippy cup. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like I also think that that is why I like why I keep running in my underwear and why

hopefully I will have run my yesterday the London marathon in my underwear. And because and we you know obviously I've dragged both of you around in your pants as well. Willingly, willingly we were there for that. But like, I, people often say to me, I wish I had the confidence to do that. And I have to explain to them, I don't have the confidence. I do it because it terrifies me and because it, but it also makes me really angry thinking about all the time that I wasted obsessing over my body and what it looks like

to other people who don't really give a shit about me. And, you know, and what I could have done with that time instead. And so I do it not because I have confidence, but because I don't. And it's like, fake it till you make it. And because I know that it is possible to do these things in a larger body or a different looking body. It doesn't have to be that you're larger. It could be that you've got a stoma. It could be that you've had a mastectomy. It could be, there could be all sorts of reasons why you think that you can't run or you can't

do it, you know. And you know, my thing is you can, you can. And I know that because I thought I couldn't. And then I can, I can, I can do it, you know. And so for me, getting in the pants and the bra and the pants and wobbling around London that way, it's just a, it's a way of kind of just, it's like putting a big fingers up at all the kind of societal expectations that have told me I couldn't. Conditioning. Yeah.

But I think it's really important to say that like, it isn't, you know, I would say to anyone who is scared and is worried about what they're going to look like and is worried that someone might laugh or whatever, like, it's unlikely anyone's going to laugh. But if they do, that is on them. They are firmly the dickhead and the one in the wrong not you. Can I just add to like you know as when we do go for our runs and it's early morning and I make us do a detour past my kids school because they're the ones that do laugh at me. Can you not walk along the company in your jazzy leggings please and can you please

make sure you go the other way? Saw you and Bryony running, you know? But no. You know, our kids go to school together now. So that's a detour I'm ready to make. And that's exactly. But that is already it's it's that's a work in progress as well, isn't it? It really is. It really is just, you know, I still have days where I think, oh, why am I feeling like this?

Why am I feeling that kind of wanting to shrink myself for almost like all I'll and it's yeah and then other times you just feel like you could happily run run run naked and not give a fuck you know so it's having compassion and also like letting people know that they don't you know know, like, also, I get so sick of the kind of, like, the kind of influencer outfit, which is, you know, a certain type of legging and crop top while they run, you know, and that's my shit, like, I shouldn't, do you know what I mean? But, you know, seeing people running who look so put together, and I'm like, what? I...

You don't need to run. You've completed it. I know, like, I've been in the glare of a nuclear bomb within about five minutes. I am like bright red, sweat everywhere, you know what I mean? Like salt in my eyes. The salt in my eyes. The sweaty eyes are very tricky thing too. Sweaty eyes? No one talks to you about that. No. And the chafing. Let's talk about the chafing. That was one of my biggest things because when I would did that run in my pants with you I'm gonna make you a chill. Yeah, I was body gliding my entire body surface and I was 100 kilos I don't know what that is an old money, but I don't know it was 18 to 20 size and I just thought honor I'm gonna start a fire with these thighs like big yeah

And I've had but the bloody the bloody the bodyguide yeah it was it does work magical that's what the question I get asked again and again and again yeah yeah the chafing and it's you can buy this thing called body glide or there's something called mega babe which I think you can get in boots which is similar to body glide absolutely or you could use like there's all sorts of chafing stuff out there and it does work. Yes, and I would say lubricate your crack like honestly, what's my top tips? Your bum? Yeah, so vaseline your asshole. No, I know do it. What? Mic drop. No, no put in your cracks like vaseline and

In your cracks like Vaseline and Cidicrim in your lady flaps and your bum and then you don't get any... if you have a hairy bottom it is marvelous. Is that the little social clip sorted there? Other people will have a hairy bottom. No but I do have it, like I have it, I'm like love me, love my bush okay? Like there's no waxing. And your hairy hole. There's no waxing going on but I've never found like I've never had asshole chafing. Well it happens Bryony and I'm so grateful that you've shared that. You're all

very welcome. Sorry if you're eating or doing something but yes a lot of lubrication helps and lubricate your toes. I fully unbuttoning her shirt. Are you going to show us your war wounds? Are you showing us scars oh god look i've got my shirt stuck so i've got this new running bra the other day yeah which i'm not gonna be wearing again because it's shaped here on my shoulders ouchie but then but then also i have like currently oh oh oh you poor darling yeah i've just literally flashed my bra on the- Well, it's been 25 minutes, honestly. I would have hoped for sooner.

It's magnificent. That was a schoolgirl error. I forgot to put the body glide on. Can I say that used to happen to me all the time, and now I put on a thin vest and then put my bra on over the top, chafe free. What? I put a thin vest over my naked, you know,

milk floats and then put the bra on so there is a layer and I have not been chafed since. The kids. But put another t-shirt over the top because it will look silly. But yeah. Wow. You see these are the things. Exactly. Can I just say these, I love Spencer Matthews but these are the things he is not talking about on his podcast. I don't know how much he lubricates his asshole. Who knows? Did he have to in the Sahara? Who knows? We've got actually we've got his wife coming on soon so we can ask her. Yes. Question from a previous guest. I would say you can use too much. I remember doing the Berlin Marathon and I over-vassed my whole and when I did a fart I was like I don't know what that is. Baby fairy. I think your next season we've got the sponsorship.

Don't go too heavy on the vats. This is important to talk about because I don't feel like we're changing lives. If I could if I took my jeans off right now and like showed you my inner thighs, they're basically like dark purple. Yes, yes. From, from the... From taping. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like in the past, but they've never gone bad.

So they look like bruised. Yes, I understand. Constantly bruised. Yeah. So like if I'm in a swimming costume or something, but I'm like, I don't care because I ran like 50 miles last week. Yeah, exactly. So I'm a, I don't care because I ran like 50 miles last week. Yeah, exactly. So I'm a fucking legend.

If you don't like looking at my thighs, stop looking at them. Yeah, and that's the thing, like, no one, everyone's too worried about themselves. That's my catchphrase is like, when I'm running around the park and looking sweaty and... I do think if anyone is like, like, I hate running, it's like, have you tried reframing it as endorphins and Rick Astley? Oh my goodness. Or Endorphins and Showtunes. Endorphins and whatever. Celine Dion.

Oh my gosh. Glorious. Start cultivating your, curating your playlist. That's one of the most joyful things. A little addition to that, if you're someone who has lots of, you don't have to be a creative person, but if you're someone who has ideas, you know, some people have all their ideas in the shower or whatever, I find myself kind of feeling quite connected with plans and ideas of creativity or writing when I'm running. And so at the moment, I've reactivated one of those, you know, record apps. So quite often I think, there we go. And I'll kind of just suddenly slow down and speak into my little app. Oh, that's the best time. Yeah, I think that's that's I'm enjoying that as well.

That's quite helpful. Also, I think this is a good, good, this is a good time as any to say that if you walk during a run, that's still a run. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do no runs. It's fine. If I always say if you've got 20 minutes to scroll on the toilet on Instagram, you've

got 20 minutes to get outside for a walk. Both are very good. What about all the gear? Do you need all the gear? I keep thinking I'm going to treat myself to some gear ahead of the marathon that we've run yesterday because I haven't really ever had the gear, like a running, proper running vest or, and I hold my phone which is horrendous but I don't know what to do with my phone. I have a running belt which I adore. Because I think if I wanted to skip through a song and things I find all that quite stressful. I bought I oh this is what we need to we need to get someone to make a running vest for

the larger lady because I have actually have one from Decathlon which was it's pretty good but it is it, like when I do it up it looks bizarre. But I do it so that, I'm like, well if I can do it then there might be some woman who passes me and thinks, okay I can run like that too. Absolutely. I always think, when I've been out on long runs and like huffing and puffing and sweating and then like, you know, shoveling handfuls of wine gums in my face and things like that, and then I'll get a message from people going I saw you on your run you know you look around like really I look like a swamp monster. You're glowing.

That's the other thing find your snacks I absolutely love a jelly baby and all that sort of stuff you don't have to have gels you can just take whatever you like as well. I feel like it's really important as well just slightly again segue from what you were talking about with you know whether you've got big boobs or whatever it is or something I always feel like I have to kind of I probably don't do it enough but I almost feel like I always want to say whenever I share a run on Instagram because a lot of the cancer community you know followers and things like that and I always always have in my mind I never want anyone to feel oh, but I I'm on chemotherapy

Why aren't I running all right? Why how can she do and I can't and then feel that kind of shame or somehow and all I can I just think it's so important To kind of also flag that up that just because I'm running and I'm I'm on a chemo that I kind of call a kind chemo because it's The side effects are manageable and it doesn't completely wipe me out to the extent of earlier Treatment lines I've had but again and I and to reiterate I'm doing it my way I think also that's a really good point and it's really important to say like there might be people listening who have loved running and Can't do it. Yeah, and that's also okay. I've had periods last year, I injured myself,

I was in a boot for ages, so I had like three months where I just didn't run because it was like, I didn't have anything in me, I had nothing in me, and all the energy I did have had to go to something very specific, and there's no way, you know, and so like, I think I would say to anyone listening, like, you know, it's go easy on yourself

Like don't beat yourself up if you are super super super fucking busy and there's a lot going on like it's okay Maybe now is not the right time to be running Yeah, and you're much more likely like I always say you won't hate yourself to happiness You're much more likely to get running at some point if you are kind to yourself and nice to yourself than if you're shaming yourself. Absolutely. And also that idea that I think I remember writing about this a few years ago that if you think of like a relationship you know I running was always there I was the one that was kind of ghosting running one minute or being a bit of a avoidant and actually running was just there loyally waiting. Running's not going anywhere.

And you know, so that's, when I kind of reframed it like that, I was like, it's okay. Running is this lovely, lovely offering that's there for me when I'm ready and is, loves me unconditionally. I'm now getting really cheesy, but it's kind of, I think that's true as well because I, again, just to say it's okay. It's okay if you have to have those days where, or months or years where you can't, think that's true as well because I again just to say it's okay it's okay if you have to have those days where or months or years where you can't if that's your activity of choice it will be there when you're back when you're ready and it will and it will embrace you.

Helen and Emma thank you so much. Oh, thank you so much to Helen and Emma for being so funny, open and real about what running is actually like. So whether you're already training for a marathon or still sat on the sofa in your pajamas, I hope this chat made you feel seen, motivated and a little bit more ready to take that first step. Don't forget to follow or subscribe, take care of'll love this. I'm Sarah Vine. And I am and continue to be and hope to continue to be Peter Hitchens. And this is Alas! Vine and Hitchens, asking you all the big questions this week. The scourge of television, one of the terrible disasters of civilisation, which has wrecked so many minds and imaginations.

And the scourge of HMRC, which has wrecked so many people's nerves and bank accounts. Made them feel so awful they want to go and watch television. Do join us wherever you get your podcasts.