The Life Of Bryony - Exhausted All the Time? Emma Gannon on Reclaiming Your Life from Burnout

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

This week, I’m joined by my friend Emma Gannon – award-winning author and Substack writer – to talk about something so many of us are secretly fantasising about: stopping. Properly stopping. Emma tells me about her “year of nothing”, the breakdown that forced her to confront burnout, and how stepping off the hustle treadmill completely changed her life. We talk about the fantasy of being “hospitalised for exhaustion”, why so many women feel they can’t hack modern life, and what happens when your body says “no more”. Emma shares her experience with panic attacks and disassociation, the friendships and work she had to let go of, and how she learned to rest deeply instead of putting on a show of productivity. If you’re exhausted, edging towards burnout, or just craving permission to do less, this conversation is for you.​ BOOKS DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODEEmma’s new book, ‘A Year of Nothing’ is available to pre-order now and will be released on 22nd January 2026.WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOUGot something to share? Message us on @lifeofbryonypod on Instagram.If this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who might need it – it really helps! Bryony xxCREDITS:Host: Bryony GordonGuest: Emma GannonProducer: Laura Elwood-CraigAssistant Producer: Tippi WillardStudio Manager: Sam ChisholmEditor: Luke ShelleyExec Producer: Jamie East  A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello there, everyone. Let me ask you something. Are you tired? Fantasizing about time off? Do you want to crawl straight back into bed? Well, if the answer to any of those questions is yes, then today's episode is for you. Just you, personally. Emma Gannon is an award-winning author who's come along to tell me about her year of nothing. The 12 months she spent prioritizing herself and her mental health over her. everything else. She's written a new book about the benefits of leaning into burnout instead of trying to outrun it. And I remember thinking, if I'm going to live till I'm 80, I don't know how I'm going to do that if I live this way. And it was like thinking about it as like sustainability of a person. Like how do I sustain being me? Because the way I'm living is not, is just the maths is not mathing. My chat with Emma coming up right after this. What I want to talk to you about Emma Gannon is your breakdown, your burnout, okay? And when we talk about breakdown and burnout, often a podcast on the subject will be how to avoid breakdown, how to avoid burning out, you know.

Our expert gives you tips and, you know, and you're going to live a life of great productivity. here, never burn out. Are you going to keep going? Keep going. Keep going. Do not burn out. But you, Emma, are here because actually you're talking about, I'm not going to say the joy of burning out, but how actually your breakdown was kind of the best thing that ever happened to you. Yeah. Yeah. And those two things can be true. And I think that's what I wanted to write about in this book, which is really quite a short book, but very intimate in that I kept diaries during that time. Because as a writer, I was like, this is interesting.

Like, I just paused for a minute and I was like, yes, I'm having a breakdown. But there was a part of me that was like outside of myself that could find the story in it. Yeah. Do you do do that? Yeah, totally. When you're in something, you can already see the narrative a little bit.

Well, I think seeing the narrative helps me to make sense of things. And you talk a lot in this book about how I, actually life is a great mystery and there isn't always a reason that things happen you know and we we like to try and like find reasons that we had a breakdown or we had a burnout or we you know we went through a period of mental illness or mental ill health and sometimes there just isn't a reason but I do think writing for me and I get this sense for you helps you to make sense of difficult periods of time. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, um, I just find a lot of things interesting. And I do think my curiosity will lead the way more than fear or anything else. Like I just, I found myself

getting really curious about this year of nothing. Like I, yeah, I don't, you know, I don't believe in the whole like things happen for a reason. But it was my reality. And I'm quite into like reality at the moment. Like I have done a lot around being very clear on what my physical space is, for example. Like if some, you know, I suffered with anxiety for years. And a lot of my recovery was about sort of like, what can I smell, what can I see, what can I feel? What is actually happening? Because what's actually happening is I'm under a really lovely duvet watching like Sex and City. Okay, so what is actually happening as opposed to what our brains are telling us is happening is like a massive thing. And I think a lot of people will relate to that. Like I can find myself

panicking, panicking, panicking, panicking, panicking, and when you take yourself to that moment where you're like, okay, but what is the reality? Do you know what I mean? Like your feet are on the floor, you're breathing, you're sitting in a chair, you're, that's actually quite a powerful thing to kind of help you feel safe in the moment, isn't it? It really is. And I feel like my year of nothing, and to caveat, you know, I still had my substack newsletter that I was running and I had like bits of like passive income.

Like I wasn't like destitute for a year. Like I'd, I've set up my career so I can take breaks. But it was like exposure therapy for me. It was like, what if the worst thing happens, which for me as like a productivity, people pleasing workaholic, like what if I can't work? And what if I have no validation and what if I'm not producing anything? Like I kind of did that and it wasn't that bad. And sometimes I think if you've been through like a worst case scenario, you come out the other

side being like, well, I survived that. So I got that out of the way. I got out like this year of really awful mental health and not to say it won't happen again, but I've been through it and come through the other side and there was something powerful in that. I find it really moving listening to you because when you talk about that thing of the worst thing being, yeah, not working, not getting that validation from work, that really. That really. lands like it really lands it's like what if we i mean this is what the book is about it's about doing that brave thing of like i think we all fantasize about it there was something i remember reading years ago which is like the most common fantasy for women in america is being hospitalized for exhaustion

and i think i don't know if you're like listening and i bet you you found yourself going off into this kind of dream world where you're like, what if I just, you know, I don't know, broke my leg or broke my arm and I had to be just sort of sedated and put in a nice hospital bed. And it's ridiculous, but it's like that is what hustle culture has led us to, you know, especially as women. It's like we have to do everything. We have to be, you know, that question of can you have it all? And it's like actually which in itself is a trick because it's like, well, actually, I don't want to have it all. Having it all is fucking exhausting and I've had enough. And yet the terror of pressing stop on it and going, I'm exhausted, I'm so exhausted that

I'm fantasizing about being hospitalized, which is not a normal thing. And yet we have normalized it, right? And yet the terror of actually taking time out and pulling ourselves away and going, I'm going to focus on myself is such a brave thing. And you did it, Emma. And yeah, I just kind of wanted to acknowledge that before we go any further. Like you, this book is, to me, is about reclaiming your worth and like learning it and knowing it. Thank you. That means a lot because it did feel quite courageous at the time because I think when culture is telling you to do one thing and then you do the opposite thing, you do feel like you're swimming against the tide in many ways. And it's

really hard. It's like this resistance of like tension of kind of yeah, like swimming against the current. It's, it is difficult. But I don't know. I do think life is about experimenting and I want to like see what's under the rock. You know, I've always been that kid that's like, oh, what's in that dark cave? Let me go and have a look. And I think for me it was like, well, if we're all miserable, and burnt out and stressed and busy and wishing that we were in like tiny little car crashes so we can go to hospital for a week to lie down. What's the other way?

Like, let me just try that. And, you know, you know that I'm quite woo-woo and I read a lot of spiritual self-help stuff and I truly believe that like when you go towards a thing that makes you feel like warm and fuzzy and joyful, things like start to work out for you. Like I just had really amazing things happen to me in that year. And it, you know, maybe it's me just being like, oh, the universe gave me a gift or whatever,

but lots of gifts came my way. And it was like I was being rewarded for taking that route. Well, you were being rewarded for listening to your body. Yeah. Okay, so let's go back to the beginning of the year of nothing. Okay? Yeah. So it's 2022.

You have written umpteen books. You're, you know, on the surface, everything is good. Would you say? Oh, yeah. I was like, had a big management. team, I had a PR team, had an award-winning podcast. I'd won awards for my writing. I was on the path of like, let's make this more shiny. Let's make this more like red carpety. Like, do you want to be on TV? Like, do you want to go and have a meeting with these production companies? It was like,

how can you be the shiniest, most perfect version of yourself? And then, yeah, I had my almighty panic attack, which was like everything had shattered, like the illusion had shattered and I had to kind of go and lie in bed for weeks. So, yeah, your brain won't kind of acknowledge it. Your body is crying out to you and saying, we need to stop here. Yeah, and I feel really bad now, looking back on, like, how I ignored my body for so long. Like, I really did. So what were the signs it was giving you? It was, I was constantly getting ill, constantly getting colds, like really bad, ones like ones I hadn't had before um every time I would go near a microphone for example because I had my podcast that I did every week my voice would like close over um yeah it would get really sort

of like I couldn't really speak um I would lie in bed and have like out of body panic attacks I got pins and needles like really badly in my hands and feet and then because I was anxious I would Google like oh I'm dying because I've got pins and you know it was yeah am I having a heart attack yeah like are my feet going to fall off. No, but it was just kind of, I was just all over the place and just, and I couldn't recognize myself in the mirror. That was a big one. Yeah, I had like disassociation. So I couldn't. So what happened when you looked in the mirror? Oh my God, it was horrible. Like I, I literally was like, I don't know what that is, who that is. It was so bizarre. And I'm through the other side now where I know what it is now. I think, I think, when you get so far away

from who you're meant to be in your sort of soul and like your joy and your childhood self and the person who you connect with, you don't recognise yourself. It's like the standard thing, isn't it? You know, when people say, oh, I don't feel like myself today. I don't feel like myself this week.

No, because you're not being yourself. Like the real me isn't trapped by corporations like telling me what to do or cornered or people pleasing or friends with people that aren't really looking out for me. So you were trying to be, I suppose, this notion of a successful media person. So you're writing, you've got a management team.

And it was like that was the path that was presented to us as kind of like, once you do this, everything's going to be great. You know, you publish a book, you write a column, You, you know, you have an Instagram, you do all these things. You get a management team. You go on TV or you, you know, but there's a version of that for everyone in each different, you know, a profession, isn't there? Like musicians is a big one, I think. Yeah.

Because really what you're doing is you're taking a very sensitive soul who likes to write poetry and, like, write their little books and blog and tell the world how they feel. And then you're kind of armoring them with layers and layers and layers. And this isn't the case for everyone. Like some people love it. and they, like, shine in that environment. But for me, like, I'm an introvert. I want to be at home. I want to write my books.

It was just, I don't need this book to be, like, relatable to everyone. You know, it's like that feeling of having to, like, caveat your experience. Like, oh, you know, I know it's a bit tiny violin. But I think there's a version for everyone in this scenario where you are doing the thing that looks good, but you feel awful. You're doing the thing that you've been told will make you, we'll make, we'll solve the problems. Yeah. And yet you feel like... And it makes you very ill. And yet you feel like more of a problem each day. Yeah. Yeah, it was crazy. And I wrote the success myth,

um, off the back of that as well. That was before my breakdown actually. And I feel like... So the success myth was all about kind of the metrics of the metrics of success. And what we tell ourselves is success versus what actually is success. Yes. Yes. We're told and sold a lie, essentially, that if you have a life that looks like everyone else's life or you have a life that looks really impressive on Instagram, then you are happy. Like, this is just a tale as old as time. We know these stories and yet we don't really believe them. And I just, in my little version of it, I just wanted to tell the truth and say, you know, I got on those flights to go and give like a keynote speech with a little Britney mic and do a TED talk. That was

the worst one of the worst nights of my life. Why wouldn't I share that? Why was it the worst one of the worst nights of your life? Because again, I was so anxious. I didn't really want to do it. I felt like I should be doing it. Like a family holiday that we'd gone on a week, a few weeks before that TED talk, I'd like ruined the holiday because I was so anxious. You know, it was the work was like, what you thought about? It was all I thought about. And it kind of robs you from the real stuff. And then the minute I said to myself, I don't think I like doing those things. It was like, oh, that's so relaxing now. I can just sit at home and write my book, so I don't have to do any of that stuff. Okay. So there is, let's, so we'll talk about what

happens. So you, you were having these terrible panic attacks. So you were going away with friends, you know, to things that objectively should be really, you know, lovely, you know, weekends in the new forest. And your body just couldn't. Your nervous system was basically on fire. Yeah. Totally frazzled. And I had a really close friend that had gone through this before me. She was really high power agent and she was just walking around her local park. And I remember describing it as like tracing paper. Like she was like an outline of herself. You know, this feeling of like when you look at someone where you think, God, the life and the, in the color of your face and that everything has gone. So I'd seen it in her, you know, walking the park in the same fleece for like weeks

on end. And I saw her gradually get better. And the thing that made her better was art, creativity and journaling and everything just so soft and nourishing. And then I knew what was happening to me because I was going through the same thing. And yeah, and I think because I think I didn't recognize myself in the mirror because like my eyes had gone, you know, that sort of glazed over expression when someone's going through a really bad mental health time. You know, they're not there fully behind the eyes and their kind of complexion is paler and you're weaker. Like I remember my friend saying to me, like you look fragile. You look really weak. And then, you know, it's all about being conscious of like where you are, isn't it? Because I was in New York a few

weeks ago to, you know, I'm fine now. And this guy on the street, uh, street yelled at me, you look powerful because I was wearing like these healed boots and like a big fluffy jumper. And I was like, oh my God, I look how, that's, he wouldn't have said that three years ago. I don't know, it was just these changes we go through and like how we look and how we carry ourselves. There's this sentence in a year of nothing that really changed with me, which was that you say, I didn't want a to do list. I just wanted to be, which sort of you sums up, I think, that sort of that feeling of burnout, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, it was just that, thing of um i'd learn this through a therapist that there's something called the window of

tolerance like the the amount that we can tolerate as humans and and for me i was embarrassed because my tolerance level is quite low okay that's so can we talk about this the embarrassment when your tolerance level is low i was really embarrassed because i wrote about my burnout and i got some comments from people being like i don't understand how she burnt out she doesn't even have kids and I was like I get I get it like I actually do understand if that's your reaction because yeah I'm not a mum of three and I'm not traveling the world and I'm not an NHS worker like do you know what I mean it's like yeah I'm on the surface like incredibly privileged and how on earth did I burn out that badly but the thing is my nervous system did what my nervous

system did so I can't I can't really explain it more than that that just like I had too much on my plate and I think by talking about it I kind of want to encourage people to admit the same like I think it's brave to say I can't actually do this can I have some help or like I need to take things off my plate um you know the way I think about it like I was lying in bed during my burnout and I remember thinking I don't if I'm going to live till I'm 80 I don't know how I'm going to do that if I live this way so it was very personal to me that the way I was living was not working and it was like thinking about it as like sustainability of a person like how do i sustain being me because the way i'm living is not is just the maths is not mathing it was yeah so the thing is i'm really proud

of the book i'm really proud that i wrote it at that time i'm really fine now and i think that's also really important to say like i don't want to be defined by it but um the world's really tough and a lot of people can't hack it. We need to talk about that. Yeah. I mean, I'm going to confess something to you right now, Emma, which is that like today, on this day that we are recording this podcast, I absolutely can't hack it. I can't hack the world as it is.

And I can't do the maths of keeping myself going. And I just in the spirit of honesty, like, I'm exhausted, I'm frazzled. I am, you know, I, on the train here, I was like, Like, it's so ironic you're going to record an interview about burnout and breakdowns because I feel like I'm sort of like on the edge of one. And then it's that thing of like, my brain does that thing of going, oh, come on, Briney, you're always on the edge of one, you know, this is what. And it's like, whoa, just like the capacity has been reached.

And there's all sorts of reasons for that. Sorry. You know, my mum has been ill. I've been ill. you know, fear, but it's always this kind of sense of like, I'm not good enough, I don't fit this kind of mould. And yeah, and it's, and it is exhausting. And I know that if I'm, you know, I trust that I was supposed to read this book and do this interview today. I just wanted to say that. Thank you so much for sharing that. It is, it's to me, as I said, it's like, it's like,

like reading this book, it felt like so brave of you to just have gone, no, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm not doing this anymore enough. I'm going to prioritize me and deep rest because I can't, I won't live if I continue to do this. Sorry. No, no, I'm, I'm with you and I completely understand that reaction to the book because it is, what we're talking about is something really deep and I guess the way I was seeing it is like you know self-love is kind of overused a little bit and I always felt that I felt that hard I felt it was hard for me to get behind sometimes but self like respect or like self-honoring I could kind of get behind the idea of like I love the world and I love the planet and I love nature and I love life and so therefore why would

I not honour the need to rest like we all need it and and everything needs their season. We can't always be doing stuff. We do need time like a plant to kind of like go into the soil again and just find its nutrients and be like, okay, I can do this, but just not right now. Oh my God, you've just reminded me of the bit I loved, I loved. And this is in the book towards the end.

And I think this is massive. And it just landed for me on the importance of resting and looking after yourself and the need to do it. was that you had kind of reframed your year of nothing as a bit like, you know, when Glastonbury has a fallow year, it has a year off because the field needs to regenerate, you know, and they can't do it every year. And I was like, oh my God, what a brilliant way of looking at it. Yeah, that's, I mean, in farming. Totally. And it's crazy that we don't realize that. I think we've become so far removed from like what probably our ancestors knew which was why would you

work like okay we've all got to work all year round but like there are ways to build in rest and there's ways to go do you know what I'm going to turn up to work today and give like 60% because like I can't give a hundred and knowing that and like you know the reason I think that we get emotional talking about this stuff as well is like because we sense the truth in it that is that the self-compassion in that of going okay I might not need to take a year off but I can be really nice to myself today and be like what would I do if I had a daughter or you have a daughter I would probably wrap her up in a blanket and like give her like marshmallows in like a in some sort of hot drink and like put a Disney film on can we just go and do that it's like that but that's

what I now do if I'm feeling really flustered I'm instead of going okay I'll double down and work more which is what I used to do. I'm like, right, what is the like softest, nicest thing you can do today? So instead of going to, I'm going to write this to do list and then I'm going to do it, you go to the I'm going to be list, which has just be me. Yeah. So, yeah, at the end of the book, there's some letters you wrote to yourself. And there was one you wrote about, it was like the peer that you always kind of looked to.

And I think we all have this person in our careers, right? It doesn't have to be careers. It could be like in, you know, the personal lives who seem to be doing really well, the person you use as a kind of stick to beat yourself up with and how you, and I think we all have like in this age of social media where, as you say, everything looks successful, everything looks glossy.

Can we talk about the person we have, that peer that we use to absolutely, kind of like compare and despair ourselves against. Yeah, so there's a bit in the book where I write letters to myself and it's using the sort of Julia Cameron-esque way of writing for guidance. So it's like if you're really stuck and yes, of course, have a therapist if you can do that or talk to a loved one, but like you can also talk to your own diary and you can ask questions. And so I was like journaling one day and out came this outpouring of just total comparison of like there's no way you can feel good

because you're not doing what this person's doing or like whenever you have something good happened to you they've done it 10 times better or like they are just like a better version of you I mean how toxic is that to think that but that's basically what social media is based on that is what we all do everyone listening right now Emma will have someone that they go to on Instagram and go, look what they're doing. Why aren't you doing that? You know, like, look, that person's got their shit together. That person's got a team.

Yeah. And as we know, though, they are probably not 100% fine because no one is. No. And there is like a compassion there for, you know, like during the height of like when I was doing all those shiny things and probably looking like insufferable on Instagram, I know people would have been probably thinking that about me and then not knowing behind the scenes that things weren't good. so I can see both sides of it now. But what was interesting about that exercise is that what came out was actually that I wasn't jealous actually of all the things they had

because I've had a taste of like that sort of thing. Like it wasn't that I wanted more of that stuff. It was that I was jealous that they actually underneath it was they were really confident and they were doing what they love and they had a really full life. Like this person I'm thinking of has like loads of friends

and like really goes and lives their life. And I worked out that that's what I was jealous of. I was just jealous of this like lifeblood running through this person who like lived their life on their own terms. And guess what? I wasn't living my life on my own terms at that time. So I was actually jealous of the thing I wanted. And this is why people do say that envy is a really useful emotion.

So it is. So you, again, you reframe it as this person isn't someone that I, instead of like beating myself with like comparison, actually this person is a teacher. A teacher, that's what it said. Yeah, exactly. And there's also these kind of meditations you can do around sending love to people, like that you, because we forget that we can send, I believe we can send like energy, like good energy to people. I just, I always like ask my friends sometimes to be like, oh, can you just like send good vibes to me because I'm working on a new book and I can like sense it. I don't know if it's like a placebo effect, but I would find myself just like in my meditations being like, I'm just going to send this person like really, really good vibes. So the beginning of your year of nothing, you're having these panic attacks and you realize you have to do something about it. So you cancel it, you cancel almost everything. And you do go to the doctor and you do get a diagnosis of, is it generalised anxiety disorder or something similar? Yeah, like generalised anxiety and burnout, which, you know, I look back to.

now and I think, well, if I had generalized anxiety, would I still, why, how come I'm not anxious now? Well, you talk about how you were very keen not to have a label that defined you for the rest of your life, that this was an experience that you were having that was reflective of that period in time. And I do think that's a really interesting way that I'm starting to think of mental illness or mental health issues is that often that actually your brain's body brain forward slash bodies really intelligent way of trying to tell you that the way you're living your life isn't true to yourself yeah yeah and i and i think what you know it's really important obviously um to say that like medication works for people and things like that

and it's really important. But for me, I knew it was so circumstantial that the fact that the, like, health professionals were sort of trying to fix it immediately. I was like, you haven't asked me anything. You haven't asked me, like, how I'm sleeping or what I'm eating or what I'm doing or what my job's like. You're just offering me these quick fixes. And I instantly, my body was like, no, this is something that you can, that needs to be

worked through and not, like, sell a taped over. Yes, definitely. Yeah. Do you think when I was reading it, I got this real sense that burnout or breakdown or whatever we want to call it, do you know what I mean? These moments are a sort of bodily rejection of the perfectionism that is like piled onto us as women. It's like this moment where we go, no, I can't be this version. I can't do perfect anymore. Yes.

Oh my God, it was so freeing. And I know that your new novel is called People Fleeza, which I'm obsessed with. I just feel like, I am so much more boundaryed now in a way of like, because my dream has always been like to be a middle age woman. Has it? Yes. Wow. I'm like so excited for my future. How old are you, Emma?

I'm 36. Okay. But I'm ready to embody it now. Yeah. Like, you know, those women who are just like, I'm not going to do that. Like, I don't want to do that. Like, you can say that in a polite way. You don't have to be like, no, doesn't have to be like an offensive thing.

It's just like, no, no, thank you. I don't want to do that. I do think actually, like, the importance of being able to, you talk about this in the book, is like the importance of being able to actually, no, let's be in polite. Let's talk about the importance of telling people to fuck off. Oh, yeah. So I've got a mug that says fuck off. So I had a therapist.

I had a few therapists during this time. And I also did a life coach training course, which I'm really glad I did. but it was very, like, pivot during that time to just learn some tools, honestly, not even, everyone was like, oh, you're going to be a life coach now. I was like, no, no, no, I need to know this stuff to figure my own stuff out. I'm going to be my own life coach. Yeah, like, I need to be my own coach. And hopefully it can help others in the long run.

But, yeah, one of the people I was talking to, yes, she was like, you know, it's not about going around telling everyone to fuck off, but she was like, get a mug that says fuck off on it and have it on your desk because there are times where, someone is taking the mick out of your time or trying to pick your brain in a way that's really quite aggressively takey and there are a lot of people who it's like an energetic thing of like in your head you're saying fuck off but i wouldn't say it to them but it was just knowing that um you can say that into yourself about something yeah well you can say no you can say no Yeah. I do think, I do think that, that, yeah, it's, yeah, it's the collapse of people pleasing and perfectionism. That's actually what's happening with a lot of cases of burnout, isn't it? It's people just going, it's that falling down moment. Remember that film where Michael Douglas just kind of collapses in it?

But like, the equivalent of that for a lot of middle-aged women. And yeah, what I've written about in my new novel is that just going, no, I'm not doing this anymore. I've had a. enough and sometimes you have to go to you know break down levels to get there yeah it's a very out-of-body experience for me anyway it was really um very scary because i felt so fragile like and i felt like how i did when i was a teenager actually i felt like you know that transition where you feel out you know really awkward in your body you feel like you don't know really who you are um everything offends you everything you're like so sensitive that's how i felt and And but then it was like this science experiment of like I could feel the people that made me feel good and I could feel who was making me feel bad. So a lot of my friendships sort of did change a little bit during that time because I was like I can only have the people in my life who get it.

I cannot have people around me now who are making me feel even more drained because I can't be drained at this point. I have to get better. And also because presumably you're quite sensitive to other people's energy when you're in that state. So if someone comes in and they're a bit negative and a bit toxic, that takes you off track for ages. And the same with work opportunities, like the things that I would say yes to before, even if they slightly felt inauthentic or they slightly felt wrong, I was like, I can't do it. And it was very extreme. And I'm not like that now. I can like edge back into the world.

You've got to live in the world. But it was this really extreme period. And then even things with like, I couldn't drink alcohol during that time because it was. was like the chemical reaction. It was like, I was so aware of what alcohol was, which is like ethanol, like, you know, we all know what it actually is. Like it's in petrol in cars. Like it's it's a depressant. It's going to. Masquerades as a relaxant. Yeah. So that was out of the picture. And then I was craving different foods and like I, I was just, my body was like, we need to seriously heal. So that was just interesting. I felt, you know, I never in my 20s. My God,

I didn't care about what I was eating or drinking or anything. But you also, I, you also, you were just sort of like in the same fleece every day. Yes. I mean like you were you I mean this is just to get into the year of nothing and this is you were literally like borrowing people's dogs forcing yourself to go for walks yeah or just the dogs so that you could like cuddle. I mean I was watching so much TV that I was like I need to get a dog from somewhere and you weren't a person that watched TV you didn't have time to have I don't have time watch TV no this is a thing I was catching up on like 10 years of TV because you know you you met me back there. And I'm not, I don't want to shame my past self.

But like, I was, all I did was work. All I did. It was like my personality was just I worked. And now I like have other things to say. Like I actually go and do things now and like see my friends, see my family. And part of me is like actually, you know, in your 20s you are sort of meant to hustle a bit. But it was obviously too much. And I think I've got to the stage now where maybe I don't have to hustle as much as well maybe.

Yeah. But I mean, you've made it, you've basically what you've done is. is kind of like you work in a way that works for you. Yeah. Yeah. And everything in my diary from now until like, I think I've got things in there till maybe the summer, all things I want to do.

Really? Yeah. Everything. Everything. It's not really busy or anything. It's like dotted around. But everything's like a full body, yes. Really?

Yeah. So that's what this is, so you basically, you're, the process, of doing nothing was like, it was like you getting back into your body and listening to it. I didn't even think I had a body before that, all of this. I was just like, you know, the classic writer who's just like a brain. You were just a brain inhabiting a body and the body was there to move you around from place to place. Yeah. From like job event to job event to work thing, to work thing, to book to book, to piece to piece. Yeah, completely misused it really. Yeah.

and the body was just it was like a kind of vehicle yeah it was a vehicle to perform yeah and then you realized that actually the vehicle was going to um like clap out it was collapsing it was in need of serious like um uh serious mott yeah seriously and you know there are lots of different versions of this, like, you know, there are people I know who, like, had a heart palpitation or that they had, um, you know, some illness or I, I, you know, I do believe that like these things manifest in different ways to different people. Mine was hard because, as you know, it's really hard to explain when it's your mind. Yeah. And your body. But mostly for me, it was also the disassociation. So saying to a friend, like, I can't, I can't come to your wedding, which,

was really out of character for me, obviously. And they can't see why. Yeah. You know, it's hard. So what were the kind of things that you... Yeah, so let's talk about the things that you pulled out of, essentially. A friend's wedding. God, it's like so long ago now, it feels like any parties, any gatherings.

Yeah, New Year's Eve, I always see my friends. I spent New Year's Eve on my own. Yeah, I didn't really see anyone for ages. It was almost a year. Well, no, I saw people on and off, but such a small group of people. This is the other thing actually that I found really useful in a weird way

is if you were there for me during my year of nothing, shout out to anyone listening, he was, they're like my people. Yeah. Because I think as well with work and like this outward facing job, like you have people like coming in and out. Yeah.

But it was really like, oh, those people like really care. when I just wasn't. I had nothing to offer. I love also you talk about your husband, Paul, who he didn't become alarmed. I mean, maybe he was internally. He wasn't alarmed by it. And you write about how he, he just was like, I could see that it was something you were needing to go through. Yeah. I know. It's so funny. I was really annoyed with him at some points because I was like, I need to go to hospital. Like, why are you not taking this seriously? Like, I'm very unwell. And it's like, I was unwell. But it was the kind of unwell that was like, yeah, sit on the

sofa and watch reality TV and drink some soup for like a few weeks like come on you're not it's it's why are we so adverse to needing time off like it's actually a sickness I think in society that is like oh you've got a day off work like what's wrong with you and for me it was weeks and weeks off work but he didn't see that he was like we you know we'll get through this yes you know financially not great, whatever. But it was like, I think you've worked yourself to the bone, and now you're having some time off. He didn't see it as a massive sort of emergency alarm. But yeah, I talk a bit about that in the book, actually, like this feeling of like something being inevitable. Yes. Like I felt in my body, actually, the truth was, I was due, I was due this. Like it was in the

post. But there's also that you, just listening to you then, I was thinking about time and how we hear, know, I find myself so often going, you know, we've only got one life, you know, we've got to live it. You know, I very much run on that energy of like, life is short, you know, and we don't know how long we've got and just for today and all of that. And then I was, when I was reading a book, I was, you were talking about actually, actually, we do you know what I mean? And the importance of stopping and using that time and then the the kind of like the importance of sometimes needing to just disappear to not be living fully at the edge the whole time is actually quite important and I think is Michaela Cole who did that she spoke about the kind of like

sometimes we do just need to disappear we need to go away and we need to regroup yes and also you know, at the beginning of all of this, I was on the sofa, watching TV and stuff, but I didn't do that for the whole time. Like, it was, it's funny how people are like, well, I don't want to waste time. I don't want to waste time. Like, resting is wasting time. And it's like, yeah, but some of my most fondest memories are in this book. And like, I'm someone that does thrive off, you know, exciting things. But I remember there was one day where I went for this really long walk. And I was listening to a podcast and, and then I bumped into a neighbor. And then I spoke to her for a while and then I went into a shop and I had a really lovely conversation

with a person that worked in the shop and then I went somewhere else and then I sort of like saw some ducks and like I don't know the whole day was like so magical and all I did was just go for a walk and I'm like maybe there's a magic in that that yes we don't have like all the time in the world but when you take a year well not a year when you take time off time stretches that's how I felt I felt like this year was very long in some ways that's good good and bad. But taking, okay, but so it's like taking time, actually taking time off. Like I find, like, for example, the other week, uh, half term, we went to Cornwall.

But even in that time off, I was like, each day I was like, we're going to go for a walk. I'm going to go for a run. We're going to cook this. We're going to do, do, do. And then we'll watch a film between these hours and that hours. And it was all like, oh my God, fucking hell, mom. I'm exhausted just listening to you, you know? And that's what I'm like, oh, I need to know that the time is filled with useful and productive things, you know?

And actually it's like, what if we just, I mean, this concept of deep rest. Yeah. Talk to me about that. I mean, I didn't, you know, it wasn't like a choice, but I think that's why I had this happen to me. I think that I wasn't going to be somebody rested if I didn't have like a full takedown. You had to go. I mean, I think my body was like, no, you're going to. to rest. Resting is something that, yeah, you kind of have to learn again, I think. I didn't know

how to rest. I found it really awkward and really difficult. And I remember just rolling my eyes at what I was doing because I, my body was like, okay, we need to like stretch and do yoga, not like fancy yoga, like yoga where you are in a blanket and you're doing. I was like, I can't believe I'm doing this. But afterwards I just lay there and part of the yoga that I was doing was that you just lie on the floor for 10 minutes and stare at the ceiling and just, like, listen to your breathing. And over time, I've got really good at resting. I literally just went into, like, a very meditative state there listening to you talk. I just love resting now.

But it's so interesting because yesterday, last night, after I was like sitting in bed, I guess I was doing, you know, what we now refer to as bed rotting, you know, which is just a horrible word for what I think is people just exhausted and like pulling back from this. I think we've we've reached like peak doom scroll. Yes. You know, peak scroll. Peak scroll actually just generally. I think we are saturated in content, in just stuff.

she says on a podcast and yeah and I so I had I had make I was making notes for today you know in bed on a Sunday evening and then I was like oh I'll just go on Instagram you know because I'm you know addicted I mean it's actually sometimes it feels like on a chemical level I'm like I'll just open it up and let's see let's see what notifications I got I get to like peek my dopamine, you know, and a celebrity had, had reshed a reel I'd done. And I was like, I felt myself come alive. It was like I'd taken a gram of cocaine, you know, and I was like, oh, look, the views are going up again, you know, the likes, the follows have come in. And I was like, all as well in the world. And I was like, fucking hell, briny, come on. Like, this,

we know this is not good. And anyway, and then I looked, and then. And then, And then in my feed, it was so interesting that there was a do nothing retreat came up, right? And it was literally just pictures of people just lying on sofas or, and these are, you know, and it reminded me of your, of many of one of the retreats you went on in the book. But there was also someone, the next thing was someone was talking about a no phone party that they'd pulled the night before in LA and 700 people had. showed up, you know. And I do think culturally, we're having a moment where people are like, hang on, we do need to rest. We need to stop. We need to embrace nothing. Yeah. I think there's a massive cultural shift now towards offline time, digital detoxes, younger people are really cottoning onto it. I think that they're just like saturated. I can't do Instagram anymore. So I have

someone that posts for me. I don't go on it. No. I can't do the feed. Unfollowed everyone. Yeah. I noticed that. I use it as... She doesn't follow me anymore, guys. But you know what's so nice about not following anyone on there is that like I talk to people more on WhatsApp now. So what happens when you open your, you don't go on Instagram? Don't go on it. No, because if you don't follow anyone on Instagram, you get like the dregs of the reels, like as in like really weird stuff. stuff because it's, because it's giving you with stuff. So on it, I don't go on there. Really? And what has that? So what the only, do you do any social media? Well, I've got my substack. Okay. So yes. Which, which actually was created at the beginning of my burnout.

Because I, I realized I wanted to go back to blogging. I wanted to go back to long form writing where I could write how I feel and people could, because I, I'm a writer. I want to write. I've written nine books. Like, I want to be a writer. And I realized that instant. Instagram pulls me away from that. Well, you're making content. I don't want to make content. You don't want to make real, Emma? I think I've made like one reel.

And this is the person that wrote Control Alt Delete when I was in my 20s. I loved the internet. I loved the internet. I still do in many ways, but not what it's become. I don't want three second videos. I don't want TikTok dance. I understand the people that do, and it is the new version of TV. That's exactly what it is.

but for me I and this isn't a morality thing it's just like a brain thing like I want to watch films I want to be able to sit through a three hour film and not check my phone like I really want to see my friends in real life and for us not to have the phones on the table

that's just like a conscious decision I've made and what's been great about the substack thing is I've paid subscribers that follow me on there so I can make a living from my writing and you do I mean you do make Again, I'm just, everything's going into metrics, isn't it? But you, and you make a good living.

Yeah. You're very successful. I mean, it's been three years on there of building it. But it's a really exciting, you know, I interviewed the founder, Hamish, McKenzie at South by Southwest this year about the platform. And he was, you know, he's a writer. He cares about culture. He cares about music and art and fashion. And he was like, what if we change the model of social media?

What if it's about long form? what if it's about subscription so a follow is a very weak tie to someone isn't it like you follow them and like you know you might lurk a bit if you pay to subscribe to someone you're there because you really like them and so it's a smaller amount of people you know i don't have millions of followers on instagram whatever but i've got thousands of people that pay for my writing and it's just changed my life wow that makes me so happy but then it all came out of this year of nothing so but also but you know what like i think to really invest in that to go, I'm going to go here and I'm going to trust that people will want to pay to subscribe

to me, you know, that comes out of you've nurtured yourself and you've nurtured yourself worth, you know, like you, Emma, strike me, and this is what, again, I've written it down, I've got in capitals here, it says, you know your worth. Well, I didn't always, though. No, I know that. But recently, yeah. But you do. And that's really crucial.

And because I think once a woman knows their worth, anything is possible. It's true. And the world is, sorry, the world is sort of set up on us not knowing our worth to us always feeling like we need to consume something or we need to be a little bit, you know, like lose something, you know, weight wise or buy this thing and, you know, achieve that thing and then we'll be worthy. And actually, this is you going, I am worth everything just as I am. And the world has gone, yeah, you are. Yeah. And that's the thing. It's so kind of cliche, but like it all comes within because you can have whatever validation that you want from the outside.

It just doesn't quite get there. Whereas when you give yourself that thing of like, no, I genuinely think I'm enough. I don't know. It's something really opens up. But I was going to say thank you because we had that lovely time at the Guernsey Book Festival when we like went swimming together and like we were talking about all sorts of things. And I just, I feel like my connections to other people have got so much deeper since all of this as well. So it's really nice.

I, you, at the Guernsey Literary Festival, you also, you remember sitting on the plane and you told me about Martha Beck. Yeah. I got so into Martha Beck since. She's changed a lot of people's lives. Yeah. Like I love the woo-woo too. Like I really love the woo-woo. Yeah. Who are the other woo-wos that like are your go-toes? When you might feel your connection to yourself kind of like going a little bit. Because it does because we live in the modern world, right?

Who are the sort of like go-toes? to kind of replenish your soul. I love that question because I do think that's a massive thing, isn't it? Of who we zone into. So yeah, Martha Beck, who I got to meet last year as well in person. So that was really special. Sue Laker Joard, who wrote Between Two Kingdoms, and she's just on a journaling guide.

She's an incredible writer from New York. And Sonia Chiquette, do you know her? She does lots spiritual guides around like following your guides. Oh, I love this. It's very woo. I am so excited for a new channel of woo that you're opening up. It's amazing. Like just all about kind of like that you are protected and like, you know,

the universe wants the best for you and all of that stuff. And then Julia Cameron, obviously, who wrote the forward for the book. Amazing. So Julia Cameron is the author of The Artist's Way, which is very popular. Very popular. But her older work from like the 70s and 80s. is very woo. She uses the word God, but I, she's like interchange that with whatever word you want to use. Like it is very accessible, but she is all about trust and faith.

And like how the creative process actually is a lot about that. As you'll know, like when you're writing a novel, you have to believe that you can do it and you have to believe it's going to end, don't you? And that you're going to find your way through it. And so I think creativity and like having a trust in yourself and a faith of whatever. faith that is, is important. And Elizabeth Gilbert has always been up there for me. And I interviewed her again recently about her new memoir. And she says she's having six months out for like a fallow period of time so that she can kind of recoup. I love this notion. I think we really need to get this going, the fallow period. Like not taking time out because you've had a breakdown and,

you know, it's bad, it's bad, it's bad. It's like it's a really. set it's good it's good it's like and we're going to come back even stronger yeah and i think in some because i know that obviously a lot of people might not be freelance or they might not be able to do the whole kind of like i'm going to take a month off whatever but i think a lot of companies are kind of introducing the the idea of the sabbatical or like the mini sabbatical yeah um i actually got commissioned i think by l a few years ago about like the life sabbatical like this idea of you know for me, like I don't have kids, for example, and, you know, there's a lot of in sort of that maternity leave period, which I know is not time off in any stretch. But it is still like a reset

period for a human being to be like, oh, I have a new role now. Well, like, I'm going to change my life up. And I'm going to change the way I do. I mean, I definitely felt that when I had maternity leave. I remember coming back to the office and being like, this is, this way of working ain't going to work for me anymore and taking it, you know. Yeah. It's a powerful time, I can imagine, where you're like, obviously you've got your hands full, but you are away from work. So it's like, well, yeah, what am I going to do next kind of thing?

But, you know, it's really interesting. I feel like we've come full circle in this conversation where I started crying and going, like, I need, you know, I basically need a fallow period. And just realizing now, you're just talking about that, is that like maternity leave this the last time I went into one of those like what Martha Beck called. what do they change? Oh, yeah. What are they like, you know.

The brackets. Yeah. But like it was the last time I like went, oh, actually I'm going to put down my own firm boundaries and this is now how I'm going to work again. And I think I, you know, you've given me permission during this conversation to go, I am going to take a little fallow period, I think, soon. Love that. You know?

And I guess a fallow period as well doesn't have to be a whole year. Like a fallow period, if someone is listening or watching and they're like, like, but I've got this job. It's like, your fallow period could be this weekend. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? It could literally be like, I am putting that phone in the drawer and, you know, and I'm giving the kids to someone else, you know, like the husband or whoever, you know,

whatever the pressures are. And I am going to lie on the sofa and go for walks. And like maybe it's about creating mini fallow periods. Yeah, like I'm not going to go to all these social engagements that I don't really want to Or like, you know, whatever it might be. Because I think that's a huge thing about saying no is people feel like they have to fill their diaries up. I guess what I'm saying is like, don't fill the diary up for a bit. Just have that that time.

But yeah, I love that you feel like that because I think we forget that we are in charge of our own lives. Because it doesn't feel that way sometimes, does it? No. It really doesn't. It feels like there's like a headmaster's office and we've got to be like, hello, can I have some time off or can I do this thing? It's like, yes, you're allowed. You're a grown woman. You've come this far.

I think you should be allowed to be like, actually I want to do it this way. Emaganon, I'm going to say this now. And no offence to the other conversations I've had on this podcast, but this is hands down one of my favourite conversations I've ever had on the life of Briney

and I just want to thank you so much for coming and having it with me. Brianne, thank you so much. It is full circle because I've interviewed you many times and I absolutely adore you. You know how much I love you. So I didn't want to let you down in this conversation, but we had such a good one.

It's a great one. And thank you for like a year of nothing is out. Well, I don't know when this is going to go out, but it will be available to buy everywhere. Yeah. In the new year. In the new year. But you can pre-order it any time.

January the 22nd. Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. I'm feeling really refreshed by that chat with Emma. She'll be back on Friday for our special bonus episode. So in the meantime, please don't forget to subscribe, follow, rate and rave about us to all of your friends. But most of all, look after yourself.

I'll see you next time.