The Life Of Bryony - How to Support Someone Through a Mental Health Crisis While Protecting Your Own Well-Being

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

This week, I sit down with integrative psychotherapist and author Sophie Scott to talk about what it really takes to support loved ones through mental health challenges without losing yourself along the way. Sophie shares her personal story of growing up in a family touched by OCD and loss, and how those experiences shaped her approach to mental health. We explore the power of listening over giving advice, why boundaries are essential for everyone’s wellbeing, and how burnout affects caregivers who often feel unseen or unsupported. Sophie offers practical strategies – from the 4-7-8 breathing technique to finding individual purpose and accepting messy emotions that can help you care for others and for yourself. If you’re navigating relationships affected by OCD or other mental health issues, this episode is packed with compassion, relatability, and genuinely helpful advice.BOOKS DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODESophie’s book, You Are Not Alone in This, is available now.LINKS TO SUPPORT GROUPSIf the content of this episode resonated with you today and you would like support, please consider the following charities:Mind – Mental health charity that has resources for managing your own wellbeing whilst caring for someone else.Call 0300 123 3393 or visit https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/helping-someone-else/carers-friends-family-coping-support/support-for-you/ Al Anon – for anyone whose life is or has been affected by someone else’s drinking.Call 0800 0086 811 or visit https://al-anonuk.org.uk/FamAnon – for family members and friends affected by another’s abuse of mind-altering substances, or related behavioural problems.Call 0207 4984 680 or visit https://famanon.org.uk/OCD Action – for people with OCD, their families, carers and friends.Call 0300 636 5478 or visit https://ocdaction.org.uk/SamaritansCall 116 123 or visit https://www.samaritans.org/ for free, 24-hour support.WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOUGot something to share? Message us @lifeofbryonypod on Instagram.CREDITS:Host: Bryony GordonGuest: Sophie ScottProducer: Laura Elwood-Craig & Jonathan O’SullivanAssistant Producer: Ceyda UzunStudio Manager: Sam ChisholmEditor: Luke ShelleyExec Producer: Jamie East A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, I'm Brynie Gordon, and this is the Life of Briney, the show where we explore the chaos of life and the courage it takes to keep going through it. Today, I'm answering one of the questions I get asked most often in my DMs, and that's how do you support a loved one going through a mental health crisis? My guest is Sophie Scott, a psychotherapist and author of You Are Not Alone in This. Her work's dedicated to exploring the complex relationships where loving someone also means having to care for yourself. We talk about the reality of supporting a loved one through difficult times, why listening can transform lives and why self-care is vital for everyone involved.

Every living organism is interconnected. So if I take up all the oxygen, let's say, then there's no oxygen for you. So you can't grow and flourish. And so the idea is that everything has to work in harmony and in sync. So if something isn't good for one organism, for one person, then it's actually not good for the system. And it's not good for the other person too. My conversation with Sophie right after this. Sophie Scott, welcome to the life of Briany.

Thank you so much for having me. It's amazing to be here. Well, I'm so glad you're here because you're a psychotherapist and you've written an amazing book called You Are Not Alone in this. And it deals with the subject that I think I get asked most in my DMs or emails, messages from people on Instagram, which is how do I help a loved one who I suspect is in mental health crisis? How do I help someone I love with mental health without sacrificing my own? And that is exactly what this book is about. It is indeed. The idea being that mental health, like all health issues, doesn't just impact the individual,

but it impacts everyone around them. But there is very little in the way of resources for those people. So, yeah, I'm here to kind of shine a spotlight on them. Okay. And the book comes from quite a personal place, which I think we'll get to. But I just wanted to touch on my own personal experiences, which is that, and I've often said this, which is that suffering from mental illness is hellish. But being around someone from suffering from mental illness is also really awful.

And I'm really aware when I'm at my most ill, that I'm actually also really difficult to be around. And I don't say that with any judgment of myself now. I don't feel any judgment of myself now about it. I do understand how that must be for people around. And I, you know, and what I always say is that I would do anything not to be, not to have to be in that place. I know this comes from quite a personal place for you, Sophie, doesn't it? Your experience with your mum and then later your sister. Yes, it does.

So I didn't grow up in a house where sort of mental health was talked about, right? So it wasn't like I grew up in a house plighted by mental health or anything like that. I think it's subsequently later that you start to put the dots together and probably that's why I've ended up being a psychotherapist. But yeah, should I share a little bit? I would love it if you shared a bit because I always think that it's really helpful for people listening or watching

to kind of understand that this comes from a very human, emotional place, you know, that need to help. Yeah. So I grew up in a very loving, warm, quite quirky kind of family. and my mom was, you know, effervescent and very lovable people adored her. But behind closed doors, she suffered with what would now definitely be diagnosed as OCD, but she never received a diagnosis. And I suspect that there was some ADHD as well.

Basically, she was sort of manically clean the house every day. and you know it was quite a different picture behind closed doors to let's say you know in public but the big thing is that when I was four she was diagnosed with breast cancer and she tragically passed away when I was 14 and actually it's only sort of years later that I realized that the cleaning was her way of trying to control her environment because she couldn't control what was going on in her body. But still, it made it really difficult to live with. As wonderful and loving a mother as she was, you know, she was kind of quite

disregulated. Can you tell me because it's, you know, it's obviously you can sort of now you can talk from the perspective of adulthood and becoming a psychotherapist, but just talk for a bit about what it was like to be a child. in that situation, like presumably quite frustrating, frightening. Yeah, so my sister is 14 years older than me. So she had a very different type of experience. But for me, I think it was just sort of quite confusing.

I just didn't understand it. And it was also really annoying because, you know, I didn't want to live in a hotel. I just wanted to live in an ordinary house, but everything had to be immaculate. I mean, we used to joke that, you know, if there was rubbish in the bin, the rubbish had to be removed from the bin.

Really? Yeah. And, you know, I think more than anything, it was just this sense of a slightly chaotic kind of energy. And that's why I say that I can see now that mum was just dysregulated. So, yeah, it was sort of lots of, it's just that kind of panicked energy, which I can now sense in myself as well when it comes up, right? sort of vibrating up there yes yes exactly um and then after mum passed away um my sister who is my best friend were extremely close um she experienced a kind of survivor's guilt um although i didn't again at the time necessarily know that that's what it was but she really berated herself for

not being able to sort of save mum and get her on a less self-destructive path um And that took its form in terms of something known as Pureau, which I know that you know about because I listen to an amazing podcast where you spoke about it. So basically for anyone listening, it's where it's basically a form of OCD, but it doesn't have so much a behavioral component. The compulsions are more sort of intrusive thoughts and repetitive thinking. And so my sister, bless her, was seeking a lot of reassurance from me that she was a good person, which I found totally crazy because she's always been an amazing person and, you know,

to the point where she actually really started looking after me when I was a teenager and she was in her 20s and I went to live with her, etc. So yeah, that was challenging and, you know, often very frustrating. So hang on. So let's talk about this because this is deeply personal to me But also something I struggle with in terms of giving advice to people who come, I get a lot of messages from people who have children with OCD. And with OCD, what they do is seek reassurance endlessly. And actually the worst thing you can do is provide that reassurance for the loop in the head. However, not providing the reassurance is very distressed.

for the person suffering from the mental illness, isn't it? Yes. So ultimately, you know, you're right. I mean, giving reassurance is kind of a short-term solution and it does only give that short-term relief. So my guidance would always be to try and understand what's underpinning this need for reassurance, what's underpinning these kind of compulsions,

and to try to support your loved one. to let them know that you're not going to reassure them and kind of keep feeding this compulsion. You love them and you're here to support them, but actually to help them find sort of longer term solutions. And in my sister's case, she went and she did do the work, you know, and she's now also a psychotherapist, two psychotherapist sisters. So, you know, I won't speak for her, but for her, I think it was very much about realizing that you can't save somebody else. And then I had to have the same lesson with her. I couldn't save her. So we both had Saviour Complex, my sister over my mum and me over my sister. But, you know,

my sister then found various techniques that work for her. And now she specialises actually in working with patients who have anxiety specifically kind of also intrusive thoughts. And a lot of that does come down to, you know, finding ways to distract, actually. It's often a distraction, finding ways to sort of kick out unhelpful thoughts and to put your energy into more important and, you know, more helpful places. Sometimes it's, I don't know it sounds weird, but, you know, replacing one addiction with a healthier one, for example. Slowly until you get to, let's go back to, you know, being a teenager,

very tragically your mother has died, which is, you know, and your sister is then also suffering from the same illness as your mother, in the same mental illness as your mother. However, it's manifesting in a slightly different way. What was that like? Tough. Yeah. Yeah, really tough. And I think that I went inward for a lot of my teenagers. So, I kind of didn't really rebel. I had nothing, you know, to rebel against, right? I was in survival mode. I think it was years later that in my 20s where I went a bit wild,

but certainly my teenagers were not like that. I don't think I had a typical teenagehood. I can't relate to when people talk about, you know, the things that they did in their teenagers. I was thinking, gosh, not me, you know. So I tried really hard to kind of keep things together. You know, I did really well at school and sort of put my head. down. I was quite naughty before all this happened actually and then suddenly I became really

well behaved and really conscientious. And I think that that became my M.O. for years was to be, and it probably is still, is to be good, you know, or to be, to shoulder a lot and to sort of bury it and keep it all inside. And actually, you know, something that I'm really open about is that I have anxiety myself and it's something that I manage. I'm, a kind of a typical kind of high functioning anxious person, you know, and I think that that's the thing is that you can never know what's going on behind closed doors the way somebody presents. And often the more put together somebody seems,

the less that they might be on the inside, right? So yeah, for me it was about recognizing that my needs matter, that I can't be a superhero, a superwoman. And actually it was about sort of owning the space more myself. because if you don't talk about what you're going through nobody can know that you're not okay so that was my personal experience I hear a lot about

I've just read a book by Elizabeth Strout and in the latest one she talks about one of the characters just talks about sin eaters and that is people that absorb other people's sins and try to make them better and try to help them, but often to their own detriment. And that strikes me as a really good way

to describe what we're talking about, what you're talking about in this book, is how to help people without taking their energy on so that it negatively impacts you. Yes. You're speaking to something called secondary trauma, right? which I speak about a bit in the book, this idea that you start to take on,

particularly the person you love, but actually it happens, you know, it can happen in therapy, it can happen in any caregiving role. When you take on the other person's trauma as though it's your own, you know, you literally absorb it. And that's no good for anybody.

You know, I've had, I saw some sisters not long ago, one sister. And her sister had finally sort of opened up to her and talk to her about the abuse that she'd experienced at the hands of, at the hands of her boyfriend. And the sister that came to see me was now experiencing all sorts of intrusive thoughts. So she couldn't sleep at night. It was like she'd experienced it herself. And of course, that was coming from a place of love. You know, I mean, as a sister, I get it.

It's like you really feel, you know, sort of sometimes emerging, which isn't healthy, right? enmeshment. Emmeshment. Is that what we're going? Yeah. Enmeshment is when you become sort of codependent. Exactly. Okay.

Exactly. But it was not helping her sister, right? Because she couldn't support her sister because she was going through her own stuff. And actually her sister ended up saying, you need to go to therapy. Because the way you're being, you're not helping me. I think because it had become so real for her. she was suffering from sort of compassion fatigue, so she was actually not feeling very,

she had nothing to give to her sister because she was so overwhelmed herself. And yeah, so she sort of needed to work through some of her own stuff. And I think that that's what can happen is that if you're not aware of your own material and actually the sister that came to see me had had, I mean, different, but, you know, somewhere on the spectrum kind of experiences

similar to that herself, that she hadn't processed. And so as a result, she just took on all of her sister's stuff. So let's again go back to you. When, because of your experiences, you decided to train and become a psychotherapist, right? Yeah. So to be honest, I started doing an evening course, a foundation course, which is the way in. And my therapist at the time had suggested it. She said, why don't you just see it might be really interesting? for you. I didn't think it would be a career necessarily. It was a really interesting evening class, right? And I absolutely loved it. And I gained just so many insights into myself, but also into my background and why I was getting into certain patterns. I mean, I was constantly

getting into relationships with people I needed to, wanted to fix or to save somehow. okay and and I realized hang on firstly this is really not good for me but secondly this is not going to make me a good therapist I remember I had an interview then for the main for the masters that I went on to do afterwards and I was speaking to this amazing therapist who was interviewing me and she she was saying it's not a good reason to be a therapist because you feel that you can help other people really and it took me time to understand what she meant, but I really get it now. You've got to do anything because you've got an intrinsic motivation, not because it's, you know, to help somebody else, right? Really. I think if you're

too invested in somebody else's journey, you fail to kind of, to do a good job. This is so fascinating. Yeah. I think this gets to the heart of often what people can miss. And I certainly felt it. I remember when I was like in the early days of, you jump in. of sobriety, I would do anything to fix other people, anything to look at other people's trauma, but not my own. But not my own. So this is an interesting thing that we can do as humans. We can focus on other people's problems as a way to ignore our own.

Totally. And I think that speaks to the codependent dynamic, right? Where one of you plays the fixer and the other one is the one needing to be fixed. But that does a disservice to both people, right? because it's like they're outsourcing the parts of themselves to the other person. So the person that's playing the fixer, they're never really looking at the stuff that they need to fix for themselves. They're always focusing their attention on the other person.

And then the one needing to be fixed doesn't really kind of find the, do the problem solving for themselves. So yeah, so my question always, when people end up in these dynamics, like I get it, there's no judgment. Like we've all been there, I've been there. but the sense of, well, what are you avoiding looking at in yourself? Can you also talk to me a bit about the roles we play in families where you can, a child can become the sort of black sheep, so to speak,

and actually start to play that role out? Totally. So we all have assigned roles in our family, right? You could be, you know, the responsible one, the fixer, you know, the good girl. the rich one, but you could also be the black sheep. And that is basically when the family often doesn't own their own shadow material and their own dark stuff, right? So the stuff that, you know, you find out, well, actually dad, you know, used to be quite suicidal

and actually mom's got loads of anxiety, but she just drinks it away or whatever. So they don't own their stuff. And instead, someone, one family member, can become the hook for all of that stuff. Right. And they then, you know, before long they start acting that way. Yeah. So it becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. It's incredible.

It's so interesting. And the idea that the work, so the idea that to help others, really, and you say this in the book, it's like the oxygen mask theory. You have to put your oxygen mask on first. before putting it on someone else. Yes. So the basic, so the first thing that would you say to someone who thinks they have a very unwell person in their family or love someone who's unwell is go into yourself first.

Yes, absolutely. I mean, most of this, particularly when it comes to boundary setting, is actually like self-inquiry and going away and doing the introspective work by yourself. And that's how, you know, we all need to become aware of our own patterns because otherwise we make the other person the whole problem. And, you know, in codependent dynamics, for example, I always say it takes two to tangle, you know, like it's working for you to be that in that position as much as it's working for the other person. Often the person that's playing the fixer is doing so because, you know, not necessarily in a wicked way or anything, but it gives them a sense of control. right or they feel like if I don't try and fix the other person then they might leave me you know the way that I am lovable is if I'm of service to everybody else yeah um so it takes like

looking at looking at what your your role is in this thing because also we hear so much about enabling behavior and one of the things that I get asked so often in touch certainly in terms of alcoholism is say my partner has a problem with alcohol but they're not ready to face it and I there's you know there's that great phrase you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink or in this case you can I always say then people say to me how can I get them to see that they need help I'm like you can't so I wanted to talk to you a bit about that it's one thing caring for someone who wants help but what do you do if you're living with someone that doesn't accept they need help.

That's one of the hardest things. I think the first thing is to let go of this sense that it's your duty, right? It's not. We all have autonomy, even if someone is really unwell. I think to respect that everybody has the right to, what's the word, to direct their own lives, you know. And then it's like how to approach difficult conversations. So I think I spent a lot of my life and probably the very early parts of my career,

almost like barking motivational orders at someone and thinking that, you know, if you tell someone what to do, that's really great. And of course it isn't. So instead it's curiosity, you know, it's curiosity that builds bridges and asking someone questions, you know, really trying to understand their perspective. And in the book, I speak about open-ended questions, which is a really simple therapeutic technique. But I think we all, you know, struggle with that. So that's not a yes and no question, you know, so it's not, you know, why do you, why do you want to go and see a therapist? No. It's, you know, invite somebody to

self-reflect and explore things for themselves and you might find really important crucial information in that way that you're then able to have a much more of a heart-to-heart conversation with them rather than assuming to know their position which I think we do so much and then tied into that is the sense of really actively listening you know we've we've got you know two ears and one mouth but most of us you know we do more talking than listening and when somebody feels like truly heard I mean we know that their physiology changes which is amazing I mean there's been yeah so the prefrontal cortex which is the part of the brain to do with decision making and problem solving that lights up we know that like inflammation in the body

reduces so on a very like physiological kind of cellular level when we feel listened to something shifts and most of the time that's what people want They don't want solutions. I was going to say, because we live in a very solutions-based and it's a culture. And it's natural to want to be able to, if someone you love is struggling, to want to be able to help them, to make them happy again. And, you know, you do become like, I'm going to give this advice to them. I'm going to tell them what they should do.

And that is, would you say, one of the quickest ways to get, someone to shut down to you? Absolutely. And if you're not careful, unfortunately, they'll stonewall you. And why is that? Well, because we do all have this urge to direct our own lives. No one likes to feel like they're being told what to do, right? It thwarts growth. All the people are judging them. All that people are judging them. Yeah, exactly. And because people have very good reasons for behaving the way that they do, you know, and I think it's very easy to pin everything on, on the symptom or the way that it manifests, whether that's through drinking or through cleaning, you know, like my mum. But actually, that's just a symptom. It's, there's something much,

much deeper going on. So if you can try and not tell them what they should do or what they should change, but be curious about kind of how they got there, you don't need to play someone's therapist, of course, right? But just to pose some, some open-ended questions, really listen. and then reflect back what you've heard and try not to interrupt, which is something my husband tells me I do literally the whole time so I need to take my own medicine here

but this idea of like really listening to somebody letting them finish sense checking, okay, is there anything else? Just, you know, have you got everything off your chest at this point that you want to say can I now reflect back to you what I think I've heard? Can I reflect that back?

And you tell me if I have misunderstood or I've missed something, just that act is so powerful because you've really, it shows someone that you've really heard what they've said. And that you care. And that you care, yeah. What if you are dealing with someone who doesn't want to talk? So there is literally nothing to listen to. Yeah.

They are shut down. Well, that's why I think the power of nonverbal communication is so important. because you're right, like when it comes to neurodiversity and mental health issues, kind of the realm of relating, I suppose it does change a bit. And I spoke to one lady who told me that her husband completely shut down. He was almost catatonicly depressed. And it took a very, very long time. But something that eventually they got into a habit of doing was taking these sort of nightly walks together.

And they were just walk hand in hand. and it was almost like they were walking, you know, to a common goal. They were walking to the same place together hand in hand. They weren't necessarily speaking. But before long, you know, he did start to say a few things. But it was like they walked off, they walked through their problems, if that makes sense. I really love that, that you don't maybe, you don't necessarily have to be having a conversation about the problem. Yes.

But you just need to let that person know that. you're there and be close to them and be like, shall we watch something together? Yes, exactly. And, you know, can we do like some art together? Can we do some songwriting together? I come from a really musical family and actually that was a way that everyone would really connect. So often, you know, like I said, we didn't sit around and talk about mental health. I mean, no way.

Like, there was no language for it, right? Yeah. There was something that you were saying about that thing of, we were talking about wanting to save people and wanting to give them solutions and you would say actually listening to them and seeing that the symptoms are often there's something deeper going on and I really I find one of the most helpful things is helpful things is understanding that what someone is going through this this negative mental health experience while not pleasant can actually actually be often really appropriate for what that person is going through in their life.

So as you describe your mother, her obsessive cleaning, she had to do that because she was completely out of control of her health and her life. So that manifested itself in that way. And it's sort of perhaps looking for sort of getting below the carb on it, so to speak, and saying, well, what is actually going on here? And is this mental health issue actually probably a really appropriate and weirdly quite healthy way of the brain trying to deal with something going on in that person's environment? 100%. I mean, I have almost nothing to add to that because it's so brilliant what you've just said. Do you think I become a psychotherapist?

I think for sure. And, you know, when we look at it through that lens, we start to have a lot more compassion because you realize that everyone's just doing the best they can to cope. And let's face it, we live in a world where, you know, everyone's got a coping mechanism of sort. It's just can you try and find a coping mechanism that is like a little bit healthier or less self-destructive for you in the long run, you know? I remember it's really weird and I'm going off track here, but for the weekend I, for some reason, I ran to where I grew up in this part of London. And it ended next to the doctor's surgery.

which had been knocked down and rebuilt. And I just, that's where, and it was so weird, and I stood there and I remembered really vividly being a 17-year-old girl and being taken to that doctor surgery with what I now know was pure O, an OCD. I'm feeling like such a weirdo. I felt like I was a massive problem and a massive freak.

And if I look back now to what, what other people, like you can't change what went on and you can't change the fact that it was the 90s. So it was basically the Jurassic period when it came to like knowledge of mental health and stuff. But if I think back to what my family could have done differently and thinking to myself, oh, I'm thinking about this 17 year old girl and how I would have held her and said there's something going on, but there's probably a reason for it, babes. and you're not the problem, you're the solution. The solution is in there.

Does that make sense? It's beautiful. I'm going to ask you a very personal question, so I won't. That's fine, you can. Okay. Well, have you done like that in a child work and visualization? I try to do. I'm really interested in this.

Like, I try to talk to myself as I would. Definitely now I'm a mother. I think that's given me a very different perspective on myself as a child. Yeah. And I have done some stuff. whereby I make, I've had like the screensaver on my phones, me as a little girl. Yeah, I have a photo of myself next to my little girl on my desk of me as a little girl. Really?

Yeah. It's really a wonderful, I think a very beautiful and wonderful thing to form a relationship, a loving relationship with your child's self. Yeah. And to keep them in a visible place, you know, particularly if you felt like you went a bit unseen or whatever, put yourself on a prominent place. Yeah.

So we've discussed a lot about how to deal with someone in your life who has a mental health issue. Yes. Right. How to talk to them. How to be alongside them. How to deal with them if they don't want to talk to you, all of that. But let's talk about protecting your own mental health and the role and the kind of pressure that gets put on care. caregivers in this situation. Because the oxygen mask thing, again, if you don't put your oxygen

mask on, you can't help anyone else. So let's talk about how shit it can be to be a caregiver. Yeah. So you're right. I mean, stats show that 55% of people who are in a caregiving role suffer with depression. Right. 78% with anxiety and with anxious thoughts. And then I don't know the percentage, but a whole host more with burnout. So we know that a lot of people who do find themselves in supportive roles end up struggling with their mental health themselves. But like I said, there's not much in the way of resources or, you know, attention given to those people. I have found that a lot of people come to therapy, have come into my clinic, kind of really impacted by a loved one's mental health. But what's really interesting is that often they come in,

and they only talk about that other person or like the therapy session is kind of populated with all these different people in their life and this person and this person and like they're sitting in front of me and I'm thinking I have no idea who you are and that's because they don't either like they've completely lost their sense of self

and their needs so that's a big one and then burnout is another really big one just the sense of you know, insessently worried about somebody that you love really can take its toll on your mental and your physical well-being.

So, yeah, people can end up living in this sort of sense of fight or flight the whole time. And then if that goes on too long, it can get to a point where hypo-arousal happens instead, which is basically the freeze. So talk about that.

So hypo-arousal? Yeah, is often the latter stages of burnout. So in the beginning with burnout, you know, generally people are kind of like firing on all cylinders. They feel kind of like really productive and society might be celebrating them because they're so busy and they're doing so much, even if they're living on adrenaline, right? And then at some point they tend to go into hyperarousal, which is fight or flight. So that's when this kind of stress and adrenaline-fueled life just goes on and on and on and on. And they're always feeling like, you know, they have to be hypervigilant

and at any moment a crisis is going to happen. And then if that goes on too long, that's when hypoarousal can happen, which is more akin to the freeze state. And actually that's when depression can happen as well. But often, if people have kind of shifted into that hyperarousal state they may collapse they may literally faint and end up like going into hospital sort of with unexplained why did you collapse we don't really know what's wrong with you haven't got you know a health issue so to speak but it's because they've they're almost like playing dead their body's playing dead it's sort of like checked out in order to survive you see that in the animal kingdom right animals do that in order to not be eaten by a predator right they play dead and it's the same

kind of thing can happen. And that's essentially burnout is essentially us, our brains, getting our bodies to play dead so that we just deal, we can look, we look after ourselves. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's such a physiological thing, you know, it really, it tends to present itself, you know, with a whole host of, you know, digestive issues and headaches and, you know, so on, right? It can, it can manifest differently for different people, but it is a very physiological phenomenon. And also something that I find really frustrating is that the World Health Organization

says that burnout is like an occupational hazard, so it comes about as a result of your work, which, of course, we know that a lot of us have very stressful, full-on working lives. But I think we're missing a whole thing. It comes about often because of our relationships, right? Yeah. Well, I guess caregiving and caretaking is work, isn't it?

Yeah. But it's unpaid work. Unpaid work. And you don't have any, you know, work benefits such as health care or holiday or, you know, or a lunch break. So let's talk directly to those people, either listening or watching this podcast, Sophie. And let's tell them what are the small ways that they can start to look after themselves? So what are things that you can just gently put into your day-to-day life that will help you to avoid burnout and look after yourself? So research shows that you can avoid burnout if you share how you feel.

Loneliness is one of the biggest predictors of burning out. And if you find a purpose that is uniquely your own. So, you know, that is something that you love doing that. you do for nobody else it's not tied into being a caregiver maybe for you it's running i don't know um but that real sense of i'm in real flow and almost everything else switches off for me that gives you um not you but you know in general that gives one such a sense of being their own person and reclaiming themselves so those are the two big ones right so would you say would you suggest to someone that if they can to find a hobby or an interest that they can put into their week,

even if it's once a week. Yes. Because that also creates a boundary, right? And also, if you do that, you will be able to provide much better support for your loved one. Yeah. Like, research also shows that. Right. So don't think it's selfish.

It's absolutely essential. Right. The other thing is it's okay if you have messy, ambivalent feelings towards your loved one. Oh, I love this. Let's get into this. Let's get into this. It's okay if you loathe your loved one. Of course it is. We all do, right?

No, but I think this is really important to say. Because, and I say this as someone who is experienced mental illness, I have sometimes, because of my mental illness, behaved like an absolute asshole. Yeah. Hurt people, hurt people, right? Yeah. So, of course. And it's okay to feel really angry at your loved one if they're suffering. That is still your experience and that is a valid experience and response. It's okay to worry about them. It's okay to love them. Basically, like we experience 27 emotions in a day, right? Which is crazy, right? Apparently. Is that true? Yeah. It's, it, it's, The University of California did a study and found that to be true. And anger is the one that people, I think, find it hardest to admit to. Right. And so the problem there is that if you do not process your anger or face it,

it just comes out in other distorted ways. So that's when you've become resentful, right? Or you're like huffing and puffing under your breath at your loved one. Or you're making gibes or whatever. or, God forbid, you know, you lash out really in a much more extreme way. So the point is, is that emotions are just like, they're just like energy, you know, and they need to be released, actually. But can you find a more, you know, healthy or helpful way to release them?

And actually, I think a lot of the time that is through physical release. So you don't build up that energy. Okay. So what we call... somatic therapy. So can you explain what that? So literally, I mean, lots of people, animals do this in the wild again. Yes.

You see there's loads of footage of polar bears who get threatened and then afterwards they shake it out. Exactly. The body is the place that holds everything. I mean, what even are like emotions? They're just kind of like sensations in the body that you label, right? So the more that we can become in touch with our body and as I said, release them and shaking is such a good one. You know, you see ducks do that again. as well. Like they have these spats and afterwards they do, it's got a name. I can't think

what it is, but they do this sort of duck dance. Yeah. And that way they get to release all the built up the charge in them and then they sort of go about their day. Oh my God. So let's do the duck dance. Yes. Do the duck dance guys. Absolutely. Yeah. And then and then, you know, you sort of just move on. I think emotions don't take hold of us when we just let them sort of flow a lot more easily through us. It's when you're sort of trying to bury them that they become this like huge deal right they tend to go quite quickly i feel like that actually that is what running is for me right i feel like it's like shaking up a can of coke and letting all of the crap out yeah amazing what else so that we're talking about sorry we're talking about feeling anger towards our

loved ones angle or ambivalence towards our loved ones yeah so it's very personal obviously for everybody, but just be able to speak about your ambivalent, messy feelings. First to yourself, so acknowledge them to yourself. And then it's okay. You don't have to feel guilty. You're not disloyal if you have a friend that you speak to, or even an acquaintance. Sometimes people find it much easier actually to share. With someone they don't know that well. Who's kind of outside their immediate network. Or, you know, best of all, obviously, in my opinion, is to, to, to say, to work with a therapist, right? And an integrative therapist, which is what I am, which, you know,

will work somatically with the body as well as it's not just kind of talking therapy. I think that's really important. If you feel very anxious, then things like yoga, mindfulness, I practice something a lot called the 478 breath, which really helps me. Okay. And it's... Let's do some four-seven-eight breath now. Okay, great.

Okay. So, um... Everyone, if you're driving in your car, perhaps don't do this. Maybe if you're listening or watching on the tube or whatever, perhaps you won't, you probably still can do it, right? Absolutely. Okay. So talk us through the four, seven, eight breaths, Sophie.

Okay. So I would encourage you, if it is safe to do so, to gently lower your gaze and to close your eyes. And you just start to bring your attention inwards. and we do that through connecting to the breath. So we're going to be breathing in through the nose to a count of four. I'll count you in in a moment. And then we'll hold the breath for a count of seven.

And then we'll exhale for a count of eight. And this breathing exercise really helps to regulate the nervous system. lowers the heart rate and just brings everything down so join me now i'm going to count us in and we're going to do three rounds okay so we're going to be breathing in through the nose one two three four hold two three four four five six six seven out through the mouth two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight and in, two, three, four.

Hold, two, three, four, five, six, seven, release. Two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, and in two three four hold two three four four five six seven release two three four five six seven eight and you can do this counting yourself obviously and just invite everybody to wriggle their fingers and toes becoming aware of the ground underneath them holding them up and opening your eyes how is that for you oh it's lovely sophie i really your voice is like i am flowing oh good actually it was really nice i kind of tuned out of the the breathing thing is it's a really interesting thing isn't it i always when someone tells me to focus on my breath and i don't know if anyone listening or watching

gets this i immediately panic okay interesting it's like i can't breathe yeah but doing a few rounds of that just really suddenly that that sense of panic on your chest where i when i was a kid they thought i had asthma but i realized now i just i was having panic attacks constantly yeah um and i think that when we're able to practice something like this four seven eight breath and we realize that the sensations in our body shift that they're not permanent, I think it's really such a relief to know that. It kind of things shift, things pass. I don't know if that was your experience. It's like you can start it feeling so anxious and with a really tight chest. And after just doing that for a few rounds, suddenly you feel a bit different. And so if we can know that we can

have that experience, we can do it for ourselves at any time. And I have to say it's, you know, I do it a lot because, as I said before, I definitely have a propensity to anxiety. But also when you are supporting somebody else, you know, it is true that the more grounded, the more regulated you can be, the more you're able to model that for somebody else. Okay. So it's really important. You know, you don't have to be a robot. You're human too.

We're talking about that. But don't have big conversations, you know, if you're feeling, you know. Stress. Exactly. Hungry, tired. Yeah. Okay. So this brings me to what I think is the kind of central thesis. And it's something I've heard lots in recovery, which I find really interesting as a theory, which is that someone said, someone said to me, when I got sober, they said it's a family illness. And I thought, what my family are alcoholics. But what I think when they talk about that, what they mean is is that when one member of the family gets well, you'll find that other people start to get well. And it's this thing of attraction rather than promotion. So you see someone else start to radiate wellness and you start to think,

oh, I'm going to ask them what it is they do instead of banging them over the head and going, you should be doing this, you should be doing that. And would you say that is the sort of key to looking after someone or, you know, the key to looking after anyone is first looking after yourself? Absolutely. And if you're then able to model that to them, that's the most empowering and wonderful gift. As you say, rather than spoon-feeding somebody to show them, which is why, you know, in the book I make the point that, you know, if you sacrifice your whole life for your loved one, I mean, what kind of role model are you being, you know, then they become, let's say, your obsession. So then you're both kind of could be in an obsessive pattern, right? So I love what you've just shared because another thing that I talk about is that I see relationships a bit like biospheres. Every living organism is interconnected.

So if I take up all the oxygen, let's say, then there's no oxygen for you. So you can't grow and flourish. And so the idea is that everything has to work in harmony and in sync. So if something isn't good for one organism, for one person, then it's actually not good for the system and it's not good for the other person too. And so I think that that's what you're speaking about. It's this sort of domino effect that happens.

You know, when I change, that's an amazing quote that Victor Frankel, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning, which is one of, I think, the greatest books ever written. He said that when we're no longer able to change a situation, we're challenged to change ourselves. and actually through doing that, the knock-on effect on others is huge

because we are all interconnected, you know? Yeah, and also the more authentic that I can be, the more authentic our relationship can be. So if I say yes all the time when I want to say no or I say no when I want to say yes, you know, sometimes you have to do that. But if you live like that all the time, then that means that our connection isn't as authentic as it could be.

So therefore, the relationship could be better. So if you want to change the world, start by changing yourself. Yes. A huge thank you to Sophie Scott for her gentle expertise and thoughtful insight and for reminding us that caring is a practice, not a sacrifice. Her book, You Are Not Alone in This, is out now, full of practical advice for anyone supporting a loved one while also trying to protect their own mental health. And if you have any tips on how to look after yourself while looking after

someone else, I would love to hear from you. Drop me a DM to my Instagram at Brianie Gordon. But most importantly, look after yourself and I'll see you next time.