The Life Of Bryony - “I Never Thought I’d Be Happy Ever Again in My Life”: Lottie Tomlinson on Accepting Grief

Episode Date: October 7, 2024

Welcome to The Life of Bryony, where we dive into life’s messier moments. GUEST: LOTTIE TOMLINSON This week, I’m joined by Lottie Tomlinson, who shares her deeply personal journey through grief after losing both her mother and sister. At just 26, Lottie opens up about the emotional toll of such profound loss and how she’s managed to find strength in the most difficult times. Her new book Lucky Girl is out now. GET IN TOUCH 🗣️ If you want to get in touch, I’m only a text or a voice note away! Send your message to 07796657512, starting with LOB. 💬 WhatsApp Shortcut: https://wa.me/447796657512 📧 Or email me at [e-mail]. And don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and share the podcast! Bryony xx FOR MORE INFORMATION AND SUPPORT We discuss grief and bereavement in this episode. If you’re struggling, you’re not alone. Here are some UK-based resources for confidential support: 📞 Sue Ryder: Visit sueryder.org for expert grief support, including online bereavement counselling and community support. 📞 Samaritans: Call 116 123 or visit samaritans.org for free, 24-hour support. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

do you have a recommendation i'm thinking i'm gonna recommend marks and spencer's clothes just generally just fucking obsessed with them welcome to the life of briarney a podcast where we explore the messier parts of life with zero shame and absolutely fuck all filters. Is that okay? This week we're talking about something we will all have to face, but we all struggle to talk about and that's grief. My guest today is Lottie Tomlinson. At 26 years old, Lottie's been through unimaginable grief losing both her mother and sister in only three years. Yet she's emerged with a perspective that's both inspiring and refreshingly honest. I went from this place of hopelessness to where I never thought that I'd be happy again

ever in my life. I was convinced of it. Lottie's story coming up on The Life of Bryony. So this week, I have been thinking a lot about my old friend Debs, or Dame Debra James, as you might know her. You might have followed her on Instagram as bowel babe. And I met Debs because we followed each other. And a few years ago, I was doing this thing where I was trying to get as many women as possible of all different body types and body experiences to run this 10k in their pants with me through London. And as you probably know, Deb's died of bowel cancer just over two years ago, I think, but not before making a massive difference in terms of her campaigning to raise awareness of this awful disease. And her legacy is the amazing Bowel Babe Fund, which continues to raise money to try and tackle this fucker of an illness i'm a friend of the bell babe fund and just go and look at its work it's brilliant anyway i was lucky enough to call deb's

a friend and i'm mentioning her now because it was her birthday a couple of days ago she would have been 43 and i've been watching videos of her and looking up pictures of us we used to run together she was always much faster than me but she'd wait for me we'd run from um gales to gales for cake basically and i've just been thinking about how life is so precious but also so cruel sometimes and the other day i was walking past the marsden hospital which is an amazing cancer treatment centre in central London that treated Debs. And I started thinking about all the people who were in there right now dealing with cancer, you know, the patients, but also the loved ones and the friends. And this episode this week is about grief and bereavement. And I just kind of wanted to acknowledge all the people out there who right

now are dealing with this extraordinarily awful disease in whatever form. And they're having to kind of get through the kind of the grinding realities of each day while the world keeps on spinning. Like i was walking past the marsden and then i walked past this news agent and there were all the newspapers and i was like i imagine there's people in that hospital right now who are like how is the front page of every newspaper not the fact that my husband or my wife or my mother or my father or my daughter or whatever is ill with cancer you know this stuff really takes up an extraordinary amount of energy and I just kind of wanted to say to anyone who might be going through it in whatever form and and the caretakers of someone going

through it you know if you're if you have a loved one who's going through it i just wanted to say that i can i like i see you and i hear you and i want to kind of send you a kind of hug in audio form if you're listening to this and you're one of those people if you're listening to this and you're going through anything difficult that could be heartbreak it could be bankruptcy it could be anything hard it could be a depressive episode. I just want to say this podcast is for you. It's your place to feel safe and to feel heard. Anyway, I was on Instagram a bit later, I suppose for some mindless scrolling because we must always balance the dark with the light. And up popped this reel featuring this actress I absolutely love called Denise Goff. She's this Irish actress who starred in this incredible play about addiction called People, Places and Things

and I follow her and she had posted this reel of her reading out this poem. Now I am not going to do it justice in the way that Shakespearean award-winning actress Denise Goff does, but I wanted to read it to you because it's so beautiful and I hope it'll chime for anyone who's going through something dark at the moment. And this poem is called The Thing Is, and it's by an American poet called Ellen Bass. And it's by an American poet called Ellen Bass. To love life, to love it even when you have no stomach for it and everything you've held dear crumbles like burnt paper in your hands, your throat filled with the silt of it.

When grief sits with you, it's tropical heat thickening the air, heavy as water, more fit for gills than lungs. When grief waits you like your own flesh, only more of it, an obesity of grief. You think, how can a body withstand this? Then you hold life like a face between your palms, a plain face, no charming smile, no violet eyes, and you say, yes, I will take you. I will love you again. So that's a bit of a heavy intro, but I hope that it might allow you to feel a little bit of comfort. You know, you're not alone. And if you right now have had something unimaginably hard thrown at you, I want to tell you, you can do it and you will get through it. I had such a lovely chat with Lottie Tomlinson. Her story is one of resilience and growth, despite suffering significant losses at such a young age. In this chat, we mentioned the

Sue Ryder Charity. It's a UK-based organisation that provides extensive support for people dealing with grief, as well as those facing the end of life. Their services include online bereavement counselling and an online community for those grieving. For more information on Sue Ryder, head to our show notes. But for now, enjoy my chat with Lottie Tomlinson. Lucky girl. This is what we're here to talk about. I can't believe you're 26, right? Yeah. You've had so much happen in your life. Yeah. How old were you when your brother became

a superstar? So I was like 12. You must have been like quite cool at your school. Well, yeah. So all of a sudden I went from like the shy, quiet girl with not many friends to all of a sudden everyone wanted to be my friend. Because your brother's in one direction. Yeah. And it was quite a big change in my life. Did that teach you a bit about, you know, whether people were authentic or not and that people were after you for certain things? Yeah, I think it was quite a good lesson to learn because it taught me to be able to read people

and I think it's something that is like one of my strengths now is I don't really take any shit from people because I can tell straight away, you know, their intentions in a way way but I guess at that age it's quite hard to navigate as well so yeah there's pros and cons to having to deal with that. So this book is called Lucky Girl I think that a lot of people would say that you've been quite unlucky on the one hand you have this great excitement you know your brother's in one direction touring the world but in 2016 your mother died after quite a short yeah illness she was really young wasn't she yeah Johanna Johanna yeah yeah yeah I think people question why I chose to call the book lucky girl and they question why I feel lucky but it's really been like the biggest reason I've been

able to get through what I've been through is to be able to change that perspective in my own mind of like these unlucky things that have happened trying to find like a positive out of that you know my mum died when I was 18 and she was so young and that was so sad but also I had an amazing mum for 18 years and I've got all the lessons that she taught me. Can you tell me a bit about her? Yeah so she was like your typical caring mum she just wanted to do everything for us she was really hands-on she was a midwife so she used to work nice and then she used to look after us she had us in all the different clubs like she was just she was an amazing mum so how

many of you are there so there's seven of us all together that's a lot yeah two sets of twins two sets of twins which i just find baffling what was that like it was amazing i think we've all grown up feeling really maternal i think because of the big family and just having that big family unit obviously especially going through what we've been through it's been essential for us we've had each other's support it was just lots of fun growing up she was diagnosed with leukemia yeah was that kind of out of the blue did it it was quite quick I knew she'd been ill but it was like almost as if it was something minor you know it was like kind of cold, run down. Then all of a sudden she went to the doctors and found out it was serious and what it was.

Obviously it was so scary, but at the same time we just held on to a lot of hope because she told us she was going to be okay. And I think looking back, that was probably a protection thing. She definitely wanted to fight it. But when I've looked into the form of leukemia that she had, I think the survival rates are quite low. It was looked into the form of leukemia that she had I think the survival rates are quite low it was a really aggressive form of leukemia so yeah we held on to a lot of hope that she was going to get through it and I think we still had that hope right up until the end when things quite quickly progressed and yeah she passed away quite quick. It's so interesting I think women often are quite we kind of dismiss our health don't we yeah and we we down talk it and you just referred then to her kind of doing that thing of protecting you

yeah even when she was in this sort of very dark place yeah i think it was it was her way of coping i think she was just she didn't want anyone to know as well no so it was like just us it was like quite a big secret which we obviously respected because she was ill and that was her wishes but at the same time it's quite tough for us because we couldn't really well this lean on anyone but also that must have been really hard because if you have a quote-unquote normal family where none of you are famous and you're all you know living life and you know your mum becomes unwell and says I don't want anyone to know you still feel you can probably talk to like a friend about it because there's no

danger of that exactly spreading whereas there was a real kind of like chance that someone could tell someone in the press and it would get out yeah I think that's what was so hard about it because it was even like don't tell anyone because that's going to get passed on so it was almost like and obviously I think friends and close people were noticing something was up something was different and we were getting asked you know is everything okay blah blah and when she was ill you can't do anything really to help but her one wish was just I want to deal with this privately I don't want it getting out you know I don't want people feeling sorry for me which I really respected she just wanted to fight it on her own with us but then when people are asking is is there something going on are you okay and you

you just having to kind of not say it was hard because I think it made you feel even more alone with it you talk about you had 18 glorious years. Can you sort of talk a bit about towards the end of her life and the lessons that she sort of taught you in the way that she handled it? had and you could tell that even though she was ill and it was so unfair what was happening that she was having to leave us all she still spoke of just being so lucky to have all of us kids and you know even at her funeral she wanted the song the luckiest played and I just think that like it just shows her strength you know and I think that's something she's passed to us and it's just one of the lessons she's taught me that I've been able to take through my life. And, you know, I'm so aware that a lot of people don't ever have that. You know, some people have their mum that's alive but isn't around or they struggle with their relationships and stuff like that.

So just being able to hold on to that is... But you had a really beautiful relationship with her. Yeah, it's just everything. It makes it manageable. I mean, it is a really amazing thing to be able to do as well like I think that is a gift it's really hard to put yourself in a place of gratitude yeah and I think that is something that I always like to talk about as well you know I speak about the way I've been able to do that and change my perspective on things but I also want people to know it's not something that happened overnight this took me years to kind of get to this place yeah if someone would have said to me

like in the midst of it all look at the positives you know like what do you not think you're lucky having these and you wouldn't I wouldn't have said that so I think it's important to recognize that you know if people aren't feeling that then it doesn't mean it can't come in time don't shame yourself for not being like of, I'm coping with life. I'm the person that can see the light. Sometimes I'm listening to myself and I'm like, myself in the start of this would have found that really annoying to hear. What's good about this? There's no positives in this situation. You can't see them at the start, but you can get there if you work on it.

So your mother died in 2016 just a couple of years after your mother died really tragically your sister fizz died of an accidental drug overdose yeah i feel like we're talking about this and you've written about it in a book but i i've only just met you and i feel like it takes a lot of strength Lottie to be able to like come into a room and sit down and talk about some really dark things that have happened to you do you know what I mean yeah um and there's a lot of I just want to say there's a lot of generosity of spirit that you are doing this because I know talking about grief in this way will help a lot of people so I just want to sort of thank you that means a lot and I you know I think it's taken me

a while to get to this point but another big coping mechanism of mine has been once I did get to a more comfortable place with my grief is to try and help people because you know I went from this place of hopelessness to where I never thought that I'd be happy again ever in my life. I was convinced of it to then, you know, years passed and I've come to a place where I found happiness that I never thought that I would have. And there's just something inside me that wants to show that to people because, you know, we lose a lot of people because they probably can't see that, that that's ever a possibility. You know, we lose a lot of people because they probably can't see that, that that's ever a possibility. And so hopefully the book is like a bit of an example of that and a bit of hope for people. If someone is listening to this right now and they are in the depths of grief, it's very hard to say it will turn out OK. Yeah.

And life will get better and this will change. And also, I imagine it probably when people say that to you when you're in the depths of grief it almost feels like a bit of an insult yeah it does and you also sometimes feel like I don't want it to yeah you know I don't want to be happy again without that person yeah and you feel guilty for that for a long time you know and I think sometimes reassuring people that are feeling that that it's not going to be, it might not be the life that you once thought you'd live. You know, I often have moments where I think my life would be so amazing with them in it.

You know, I still have that feeling. And it's like, of course, you're always going to carry that. And you're always going to carry that. You know, you always feel that piece missing, but you can also still be happy at the same time. So I think you just recognizing that is important as well I get the sense that because you're from such a large family did you almost kind of dampen down your grief because you felt like other people had more

grief to feel or yeah I think a quite a good analogy is like when you've got your big family around you it's like your shield so like when we're all together, we can kind of, you're almost like blocking everything out. Whereas then, you know, you're getting home and you've got to deal with it yourself. And there was a lot of layers to my grief and it's quite an unusual situation to have two big grief experiences so close together. And also both as heavy as each other you know a mum and then my sister but it's also given me quite a lot of insight on how differently I dealt with things and different ways that I've coped and I credit therapy a lot from the way I managed to cope because I never had it with my mum and then I had it with my sister and the difference between those

two experience was really vast you know. What was your relationship like with Fizz growing up? So we were two years apart so growing up we were like your typical sisters bit of a rivalry going on but we were always you know we always had that close bond you know she wanted to do what I was doing she wanted to borrow my clothes it was just that typical sister relationship and then as we got older I think we saw the value in each other and we really realised how lucky we the value in each other and we really realised how lucky we are to have each other and we really became best friends and I think that's the hardest part about losing her when I did because we just kind of discovered that and I know it was a really special relationship cut short. Also the way in which you lost her was quite

shocking. Yeah it was a big shock and that's another big difference between the grief experiences because you know my mum had an illness you know when someone's got cancer although we held on to a lot of hope your brain your mind does go there you know naturally you kind of prepare that that could be a possibility whereas with fizz we knew she had struggles but you know we thought it was just part of the grief process. And, you know, she was finally dealing with things. She was young. We thought maybe her age, she was hanging around with the wrong crowd. We never thought that that would be the outcome of that situation. So there was a shock factor with that. Would you mind for anyone that doesn't know, I know this is like awful having to ask you, what happened? Well, without going into too much detail,

because I think the nature of her death is quite personal and I think ideally for our family we wouldn't have actually wanted that to be public but because there was an autopsy involved that did become public and it's more of a protection thing for her you know she was so young and her issues were because of her grief you know from mum and she was so vulnerable and I think we try so hard to try and protect that because we haven't been able to in a lot of ways because obviously you know it was a big shock to me when it happened that literally everything that was in her system gets listed out to the public why does the public need to know that but it's another kind of layer yeah to the

grief we're all used to that aspect of our lives by that point but it definitely made it harder because like I say you know it's such a such a personal reason and and you just feel so protective over her like I didn't really want everyone knowing that she'd struggled to that extent and you know turned to that kind of thing but it was really just a really tragic accident and I think she dealt with things a lot differently so when mum did die we definitely noticed that her way of dealing with things was very different to us we were more emotional we were kind of we seemed to be dealing with it more head-on whereas she seemed quite numb to it all but you know we just put it down to

different ways people deal with grief but I think then a few years on it all kind of came once and then because she hadn't dealt with it at all it was that painful that she kind of spiraled out of control I always remember someone talking about their brother dying of a drug overdose and them saying that afterwards people just defined him. Yeah, I think that's it. By the drugs. And she was like, we kind of have this desire as humans to box people in and describe them as addicts or whatever. Yeah. It's an amazing book called Transcendent Kingdom.

And she says that the real shame was on everyone who missed out that he was so much more than just that yeah that rings true for fizz as well and i think that's probably a big reason why i try and protect that because really that was just such a small part of her story you know it was a sad part of her story but i never thought of her as an addict it wasn't like that it was a circumstantial thing as to why she'd turned to that stuff and really it was because she was in so much pain it was a way of numbing it numbing but it always is yeah it's so hard aren't we on people that use substance substances when actually they are people in pain yeah and would we be hard on anyone else who's saying they're in that much pain yeah Who's saying they're in that much pain.

Can I talk about how you dealt with it? Because I think there's going to be a lot of people listening who might want to know, how do you just get through the grinding day-to-day reality of grief? Yeah I think the something I always say with the book is that I don't want anyone to think it's like a magic answer of how you deal with grief because there isn't one and everyone's grief experience will be different. I definitely think that the stages of grief are true. I don't know if I don't think it's linear I don't think that there's like seven stages and everyone goes through each one at the same but I definitely think we all deal with each stage at a certain point and I noticed with my mum because I didn't get any therapy or I didn't really speak about it I kind of I think also growing up up north in that kind of time and

place it wasn't a thing to like talk about your feelings talk about your feelings or go to therapy or get counselling or anything what was the family attitude toward counselling growing up well it never really got spoken about with the family but I remember when Fiz died my close friend Lou was like she was really into therapy and she was like look why don't you just get some therapy just to help you feel as strong as you can like you've gone through two really traumatic experiences and I was like why the hell would I need that I've literally lost my mum and I've got through it myself I don't now need that and I was really against it I was like how can sitting down for an hour with someone what was your reluctance was it that you you didn't want to kind of go into it anymore yeah I think it was like that kind of

feeling of having to go in there and be vulnerable and talk about it. And also just like it's a bit of a defence mechanism. It was almost like it felt like it was a bit of an insult, like you need help. And it's, you know, I think that's something that often puts us off. It's like people think that going to therapy means that they've got these big issues that they need help with.

But everyone could benefit from therapy, I think, even if you've not had anything really good. Like, it's just something about having that unbiased opinion and having that hour or however long it is to talk about just you. Because in every other situation where you're talking to someone, you're naturally getting their opinion back and their thoughts whereas this person is just there for you are you naturally as well I get the sense you're quite a caretaker so you're quite a maternal person yourself and we'll obviously get on to that but I get the sense that you're probably quite good at looking after other people yeah I think it's obviously like I've said it's a maternal instinct that we've all got in the family I think due to being part of a big family and also my mum was just the most maternal person ever she had seven kids she was also a midwife obviously just couldn't get enough of

babies we'd be on holiday and there'd be like a family and she'd be asking to help with this family's baby and I'm like mom yeah she just what like she was just so maternal and I think obviously naturally that gets passed through to us because we're watching her like that. But yeah, I think with the therapy, I just thought I don't need it. So what changed your mind? I think it's just because Lou was kind of saying she basically just said to me, have a session. I know a really good lady. Just have one and see how you feel. And I went and did it it and it was really weird because

the lady that I had reminded me of my mum straight away it felt right it felt and I was lucky because obviously I bonded with her and I think if you don't it can really change the experience but it completely changed my experience with the grief of Fizz I spent a lot of those two years before we lost Fizz with the grief of my mum, going through these cycles of bottling it up. I was fine, I was fine for months. And then something would trigger me off and I would just sob and sob for hours on end, inconsolably.

And it was just like the worst pain ever. Yeah, and it wasn't healthy. It's really interesting to talk about that. Is it five stages of grief? I think it's seven. Seven? I couldn't even name them all. I think we could have a go at it. it wasn't healthy it's really interesting to talk about that is it five stages seven seven and i couldn't i couldn't even name them all i think we could we could have a go at it there's definitely denial in this denial which is anger anger definitely both true the last one i think

is acceptance isn't it and that's another thing that i talk about quite a lot that's what i've noticed is when i've found peace is when i've accepted what's happened and it's it's funny because you don't think you'll ever accept that you know your mum's not going to be here or your sister's not going to be here or whoever it is but as soon as you do it like lifts it's really weird yeah so denial figured for quite a long time I think it was denial and anger was my biggest one that kind of you know the painful moments because you just feel like, why me? And I think in them kind of moments where I was going through these months of bottling up and then I would have these awful episodes of just being, you know, inconsolable. I think I was just so angry. Why my mum? Why can't I? You know, why has it happened to us or her?

I think that is quite a hard stage to overcome. Would you look at other people and feel sort of a fury? Yeah. And also don't forget, like, losing your mum, reminders are everywhere. Your friends are talking about their mum. There's TV shows with their mum. It's always been spoken about.

So it's quite hard to, you can't escape it. Do you remember the first, like, Mother's Day without mum? I don't even think I remember, like, the first one. But I obviously know the feeling so well of how that day feels. And how does it feel? Obviously now it's got a whole new meaning because I've got my own little boy, which has been the most amazing thing that's ever happened to me. Yeah, because you almost get a sense of that feeling back.

I've lost my mum, but I get that relationship with him. Do you feel connected to your mum through Lucky? Definitely yeah especially because her first born was a boy and like the whole thing it just makes me feel close to her because it's like I'm experiencing what she did. So how old were you when you had Lucky? So I was 24 when he was born. Right so quite young. Quite Quite young, yeah. But does it feel, I get the sense as well, that it feels like the most natural kind of... I always wanted to be a mum. And my mum knew how much I wanted to be a mum. And that's one thing I always remember her saying to me

when she was ill and we knew she wasn't going to make it. She said she wished she'd seen me have my baby. So it's such a bittersweet thing because obviously I just wish she was here but like he's made my life better in every single way I think the thing people don't talk about often we talk about grief of losing someone but there's a different kind of grief which is the grief and you're kind of alluding to it now, the grief of losing the idea of a life that we were going to have. Yeah. And so that's mum holding her grandchild.

Yeah. Or Fiz being an auntie. Yeah. And how do you sort of process that? Because I don't think people do talk about that, do they? And I actually think that's probably harder than the actual loss. I mean, obviously obviously you can't really compare the two but it is such a hard element of the grief I think that is what grief

is isn't it it's like the life that you've lost and the experiences that you're not going to have and there's always just that missing piece with big events that happen in your life but it is really hard to deal with that how do you as a family remember and celebrate fizz and your mom so obviously when it's birthdays or anniversaries we always get together and we just try and make it a more positive day do you know i mean so and just talk about them i think that's really important it can be easy to avoid talking about them because it can be so painful you know i've done work with Sue Ryder about trying to you know because even grief is still quite a taboo subject and I

understand why because people people are so scared to upset you you know naturally you just want to avoid saying it in case you set that person off but often doing that actually has the opposite effect because I always find that I gravitate more towards people that do bring it up with me and do give me that space to talk about it because makes you feel less alone with it you know and so just keeping them in your mind and talking about them is is important you're absolutely right that especially in the UK we don't talk about death no we are terrified of it how do we not because it's gonna happen it's literally the only thing that we know is gonna happen that we're all gonna

do yeah and everyone is going to go through it what are the things i'm because i'm i'm really interested in like the practical side of this and obviously as you've done this work with sue rider and i think it's really important for listeners as well like what are the things not to say to someone who is grieving right so I think personally this is the worst thing you can ever say to someone that's grieving is that they're in a better place now oh that person is never going to think there's a better place for them than with us also the amount of times I've been told that people say that to you quite a lot I mean it's not like obviously that common but you still hear it quite a lot and I see people commenting that to people when you know they're going through grief and I'm thinking no don't say

that please don't say that don't say that okay also at the same time I think it's important to recognize that there's always going to be something that someone says that might not feel good to that person even if you just say you know the generic I'm sorry for your loss someone might not like that true but it's still better to say something than nothing at all I'll still stick with just don't say that they're in a better place okay so that's the one that's the one thing for me anyway and I just think is that ever really gonna like make someone feel better yeah the best thing that you can do for me is give them the space so I would always say would you like to talk about anything or do you want to just

you know sit in silence do you want to do you want to have a cry do you want to like give that person the space often letting them kind of tell you how they want to best deal with it and checking in yeah and continuing to people kind of think oh it's six months. They're probably fine. They might not want me to stay. Well, that's the interesting thing, isn't it? And I think this is important to say to people listening is that they might feel, oh, I'm bothering them. I'm bothering them and they are in there. And actually, I imagine people would rather be bothered than not. Yeah. And do you think it's also a really good idea like to send a message go just checking in you don't have to reply yeah it's always going to be appreciated when someone's checking in on you like my mum's anniversary is in December it's going to be eight years this year wow and it still

means so much just to get a message from them people saying that they're thinking about me and it's just does it mean almost more the longer it is yeah I think it does and like even in certain situations you know if it is mother's day or I'm in a situation where there's kind of mentions of mums and all that if someone just says like you all right like just means a lot it makes you feel less lonely because I think grief is loneliness isn't it a lot of the time a big part of it is just loneliness so having that lifted in any way just helps I think the main thing is just like as hard as it is just allowing your emotions because I think that's something that I really noticed as to why my grief with my mum was so

unhealthy because it was just block it out at all costs because it is so painful I think it's a natural instinct as a human to be like if a feeling is so painful block it out well you storing up grief and trauma is so unhealthy for you in so many different ways we sometimes I don't know about you but when I was little you know like your parents would always say like don't cry you know or don't be silly or and now I don't know how you're like this with Lucky but like actually teaching kids that it's okay to cry and actually it's actually a very healthy response I think that's so important and I definitely do that with Lucky I think it's mad how we get kind of taught that be strong be

tough yeah especially the men you know it's a bit easier for us but it's definitely hard to to try and always feel like you've got to suppress your emotions so lucky is two yeah and then in january we have number two yeah can you say am i allowed to say am i like doing am i doing a gender reveal and ruining everything you're like brian we have plans no don't worry i've already revealed that it's okay that's like neat and lovely i'm so happy and funny story actually that i've not told anyone so my sister has got a little girl and she did an at-home gender test that started in america and you order the kit it's like 80 quid and you it comes with a little you know like when you've got diabetes and you have to pinprick yeah yeah and

you you squeeze this blood and you feel like a little thing and you send it off and within a week it comes back with your gender. You can do it from eight weeks. So, obviously, for people like me who is just unbelievably impatient, I was like, right. Anyway, my sister did it and she got boy come back and she did a big gender reveal party, got to a 20-week scan and they told her it was a girl.

Bearing in mind I know this has happened and I know that she'd got it wrong I still did it I thought do you know what it's not going to happen to both of us I literally sterilized the area scrub my hands followed all the steps so I thought there's no way this is going to be wrong comes back as a boy so I was like oh I'm having two boys got to my 12 week scan and obviously in the back of my head I had that kind of doubt because of what happened to Phoebe so I said to the lady that was scanning me I said we've had a blood test like we know the gender but can you just confirm if you can tell at this stage and she went um I can guess about 80% accuracy at this stage but it's a girl I was like what so I was

like oh my god and then 80% you're still thinking like is it a girl is it a boy and I was like what so I was like oh my god and then 80% you're still thinking like is it a girl is it a boy and I was like right I just I need to find out so I waited till 16 weeks had the scan girl on the website says 99% accuracy yes but you Tomlinson's are the 1% literally and apparently it says that because not enough people submit that they've got the wrong result so it's a bit of a con in my ideal world where i prime minister i'm not everyone would be given like an hour of therapy a week yeah 100 but obviously provision's pretty bad also people as you say as you were might be quite reluctant to do therapy yeah are there any other little practical things that you found help you to kind of process your grief and get through it?

I think definitely looking after yourself in terms of self-care was a big one for me. I always noticed I was at a better place with my grief when I was exercising, having a routine. Also, for the people that can't access therapy, that's why Sue Ryder is so amazing because they do so many different things to to help the people that can't access it like you know you can get free sessions with trained therapists you can also attend things like grief cafes what that they put on and I think that is so amazing for people just to go along and have a coffee and speak to people that are going through the same thing you know like we were saying it's loneliness isn't it so having that and i didn't have any clue about that being a thing the grief many do i wish that there was more of this because

actually yesterday i went to my uh like i went to my local swimming pool and there was the my daughter was pointing at it going that's weird at the at the um like the notice board and i went up and it was it said death cafe oh wow and it was, it said Death Cafe. Oh, wow. And it was like, well, this was the interesting thing. This isn't grief support network. This is for people who are dying and just want to get together and have a chat about how shit it is. Yeah.

And I thought, God, yeah, there's not enough of that, is there? There's nothing, yeah. It's all of the kind of taboo things that we find really hard to speak about isn't it that there isn't enough support with being able to tell people go on Sue Ryder website and you know look at what they offer because they do offer so many amazing things obviously leaning on people I think it's easy to feel like you're a burden to people but most people will be honoured if you're coming to them and saying you know I really appreciate your support do you mind if we go for a coffee and have a chat you know it's it's just like having the confidence to do those things but I always say you know with with the book and everything and with my grief as

much as I've got to such a good place with it and I've managed to accept it all and I'm very lucky to be able to say that I can see positives in my situation. It's still there and it's still always going to be there. I just say that I'm at a comfortable place with my grief. I would never say that I'm over it or that like, yeah, I'm not grieving anymore. You're always going to grieve to a certain extent, but I'm at a comfortable stage with it now. And isn't, I suppose, the trick is to kind of accept that it's not about wanting to change your feelings yeah it's about accepting your feelings and the best thing that the late queen ever said was that grief is the price we pay for love and there's a lot of comfort

in that isn't it you know it's we're lucky that we had that love. Do you know what? That little baby, boy or girl, and Lucky, are very lucky to have you because you are wise beyond your 26 years. I don't mean to sound patronising. No, not at all. But I've got a lot from this chat and, you know, I think it's so important to have these conversations.

There's a beautiful part of your book that I would like to end the podcast on as I think it'll be a comfort to anyone going through the loss of a loved one right now. In fact, would you mind reading it out? Yeah, this bit here. I wish someone could have told me that it was all going to be OK, that I was going to survive this. I would have loved to know at that point that life after this was possible because I was so sure that I'd never live a normal life again, that I'd never be happy. because I was so sure that I'd never live a normal life again,

that I'd never be happy. To look at what I've managed to make out of life now and to look at how happy I am, it would have been so good to hear that this was possible, but I've had to go on to discover that. Lottie Tomlinson, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. It's been amazing. Thank you. Huge thanks to Lottie Tomlinson for such an honest and open and inspiring conversation today

I think the big takeaway for me is to remember that grief doesn't follow a set path and it's really important to accept that there's no specific end date to it which might be a way of finding peace with how you're feeling her book lucky girl is out now okay now before we wrap up I'm gonna leave you with something i've been loving this week as actually i could do an entire podcast on this and it is martin spencer's fashion which is not something i ever thought i would say maybe it's my age i don't know but like i always thought of m&s as slightly frumpy and it is absolutely nailing it right now. And I mean, listen, you may be like, Bryony, we don't want to take fashion advice from you.

Have you looked in the mirror at what you wear on any given day? And I'm talking to you right now on my sofa in a pair of jeans that have holes in them, a stained t-shirt that is covered in coffee. I've just been amazed by some of the stuff i bought this like fake obviously fake like sheepskin coat thing which i think is so chic and also you know everyone's wearing those like red mary janes that look like dorothy slippers i i bought some of those in red and then also in gold because that's just how I roll. And also the great thing about M&S fashion, fash-wan,

is that it's pretty size inclusive, goes up to larger sizes, which we love, right? That's what I'm recommending. And also this is, yes, can I just be clear? That's not an ad. And this is the part where i ask you to subscribe rate and review the podcast but i'm gonna keep it fresh because i'm obsessed with geolingo lately i'm gonna say it in spanish so this is

this is subscribe rate tell a friend in spanish here we go subscribe rate, tell a friend in Spanish. Here we go. Suscríbete, califica, dile a una amiga. I'm back on Friday with a bonus edition of Life of Briny, where Lottie and I will be answering your messages. So don't forget, you can WhatsApp me and even send me a voice note. All the contact details are in the show notes. See you Friday. Adios, amigos.