The Life Of Bryony - Joanna Page: I Went to AA Meetings with My Grandad Aged 11

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

This week, I’m joined by the brilliant Joanna Page – star of Gavin & Stacey, proud mum, and now the author of Lush – and let’s just say, there’s nothing off-limits. We dive straight into the wild and wonderful, from streaking down Mumbles seafront as a teen to breathing through your anus in drama school (yes, really), and get painfully honest about body image, bullying, and surviving rejection in the business. Joanna shares how it felt to be labelled "too Welsh" at drama school and reflects on the gritty reality of sexual bullying on set – plus, why presenting gives her more control and why perfectionism still sometimes sneaks up on her. If you want a real conversation about living life imperfectly – this is the episode. I left this chat with my heart a little bigger, and I hope you will too. BOOKS DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODEJoanna’s new autobiography, Lush, is available to buy now.WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOUGot something to share? Text or send a voice note on 07796657512 – just start your message with LOB.Use the WhatsApp shortcut: https://wa.me/447796657512?text=LOBPrefer email? Drop me a line at [e-mail] this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who might need it – it really helps! Bryony xxCREDITS:Host: Bryony GordonGuest: Joanna PageProducer: Laura Elwood-CraigAssistant Producer: Ceyda UzunStudio Manager: Sam ChisholmEditor: Luke ShelleyExec Producer: Mike Wooller  A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, you lovely lot. You're in for a real treat today because I have only gone and got the wonderful actress Joanna Page in for a chat. And we go deep pretty damn quickly. In fact, I think it would be safe to say that in the next hour or so, you're going to hear the two of us channels Stacey and Nessa as we delve into everything from body image to bullying to breathing through your anus. Oh yes. Afterwards, Joanna described our chat as being a bit like a therapy session. So if you need to let it all out, then you're in the right place. I remember calling the producers in and saying, I don't know how to describe what's just happened to me. I don't actually know what it is, but I think I've been sexually bullied. And I thought, I'm not fucking putting up with that again.

My chat with Joanna, coming up right after this. Joanna Page, welcome to the life of Brieney. Oh, thank you. I'm so happy to be here. We've already been talking for some time. We could have already done the podcast by now. We've covered so much stuff. We'll recover it.

Your book, Lush. So you have written this book called Lush, which is Lush. And it is, it's a celebrity, it's a memoir. Right. But I, okay, so hear me out. I have this theory that, I'm going to go a bit woo-woo really early on here, that it's also, I felt as a woman in her mid to late 40s, I found it a fantastically healing experience reading it. Yeah. Yeah, because it was like, obviously I wasn't an, you know, I wasn't an actress in the naughties or whatever, but I was like going through life. And I was reading it. And the thing that came to me was how much shit we had to put up with in the noughties. And it wasn't just that we had to put up with it. We like had to normalize it and go along with it.

Yes. Yeah. There's like there are so many incidents. And I know you've spoken already about some of them. But I like, I ended up writing them all down. Yes. Yeah. Those kind of those things that we just put up with.

Well, yeah. And I didn't even feel like particularly traumatized by any of the stuff. that I've put in, right? I've not even got like, oh, God, that was awful, that happened and that was awful, because it was just normalised. It was kind of like,

well, this is what it's like. It's not that anything, you know, I didn't even sort of feel in all of the different experiences I've had. I've never really come out of them feeling particularly like, oh my God, that was really awful or that was, because it was just normalised. You come at a drama school. It's, you know, well, the early 2000s,

and this is kind of what it's like. And particularly as well, if you're sort of like a working class Welsh girl, they assume straight away that you're thick and that you don't really have anything, you know, to say and you're a woman, so I mean, you know, you're just a bit of a silly, giggly, stupid, you know, thick girl and then, and, you know,

and this is the way that you're treated and this is just the way that it is. So all of my different experiences were things and it was like, oh God, right, okay, this is happening. Okay, I've just got to, you know, sort out how I'm going to do this and just get through it and manage to sort of keep myself together

as much as I can, get through it and on to the next thing. So talking about drama school, school because Rada, so you went to Rada and you turn up there thinking and you're by this point you're in love with drama and acting and it's really what you want to do. You want to be like the next Kate Winslet. Yes. And you turn up there and it's a bit of a rude awakening. Well, it wasn't anything like what I thought it would be. Originally right, I wanted to call this book breathe through your anus because I thought that that was sort of like, I don't know,

It's just sort of encapsulated me and, I don't know, the way I feel about stuff and all of, you know, that. And it was in Rada that I remember squatting on the floor in the middle of a larban class where it's all about, you know, your speed and your movement and forming, you know, different characters and stuff. And me and Maxine Peek were like squatting on the floor sort of moving with the teacher going breathe through your anus. And I thought it was hilarious. Maxine seemed like slightly distressed by it all. But I just thought it was so ridiculous, right? but that's what I wanted to call the book and then they didn't want me to call the book that

because they thought that you can't really sell a lot of books in a supermarket with the word anus on the front which I think is ridiculous as the first one I go and blink and lock at so that's why we went for lush and which in the end I think is really lovely because it is just sort of like exactly what I'm like and you know and all of that but when I went to Rada I just read Kenneth Branagh's autobiography

I thought it was going to be like that and I just had this love of you know acting and being different people and dressing up as different people and acting out characters and I was really up for it and I loved it and it was my life and I wanted to be the next Kate Winslet

I just wanted to be everything was just very dramatic and serious and I just wanted to be this serious actress and then I auditioned for all the drama schools and then you know audition for Rada and you had to do a comedy speech you know and a serious one and I decided to just plump straight

for the two serious ones and you know it was just like emoting everywhere I didn't even really know what I was talking about that much. Because when I did Queen Catherine from Henry the 8th, I always remember them saying to me when I'm begging, you know, not for the sharpest kind of justice. And they were saying, you know, what do you mean by that? And I didn't even really know what I meant,

but I knew I was pleading for something. And then when it sort of kicked in and I thought, oh my God, she's pleading for him not to cut her head off. Everything sort of sunk in. But I was open and I wanted to learn. And it was like, oh, brilliant. I'll take that on board and I'll do, you know, it this way. And it was really, really open.

And I got there and it just wasn't like that at all. It was so, it was just so judgmental and so sort of closed off. And for somewhere that you think I'm going to be my most vulnerable and open and, you know, mess up and make mistakes and try loads of different things. And if this doesn't work, who cares? Try another thing and another thing. It was so closed off to that. If you couldn't do the thing they asked you to do and if it didn't work,

it was because you were shit and you couldn't act. And that was just, you know, that was it. You're shit and you can't act. and I remember getting there on my first day and we were all in the room we gone from one room to another room and we were all sitting in there and the teacher was talking

and then this girl who was Maxine she turned up and she was like I don't know a couple of minutes late and I remember her walking in and the teacher just going absolutely berserk and saying how dare you treat us like this you're just coming in whenever you think you can and you're not going to last year

if you've got no respect for us and I just remember sitting there just being terrified because I'd never really been in an environment where people actually talk to you like that and you're just so like shouted at and I just remember thinking this is, I don't know I just don't feel free I'm really scared I just feel really really

scared and I feel scared to make a mistake and from that moment onwards I sort of just went boof like that and just closed up and then it just got worse and worse and worse with every time I'd sort of come out to sort of try something out it would just be you know I've not achieved it for whatever reason normally because I was too sweet

too Welsh too clean too nice you know and then it would just be your shit. You can't act. Well, you need to be able to make mistakes when you're, that's how you learn, isn't it? How can you learn? How can you change? And it was all really method. It was just, it was just so difficult to sort of be open and exposed when people are just going, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you can't act, you can't act. And yeah, and it was just so from right from the very beginning, I just thought, oh my God, this is just not the right environment for me. And then at one point, someone says one of your tutors or whatever I call

them says to you, oh, I thought you were just, I thought you were shit at acting, but actually it's just that you're Welsh. Yeah. So there's also this like real kind of snobbishness. Oh God, completely. Where you're sort of feeling ashamed of your very kind of all your roots. Well, yeah, because I remember them saying, because obviously as an actor, you've got to be able to do different accents. But I remember when we started doing RP and all of your like voice classes and everything, we're all English and all in RP and to get your voice centered and your breathing. And my voice teacher had trained Margaret Thatcher, you know, when she was young. So for a whole term, the only way that I could sort of talk in a very sort of English accent was to talk, you know,

very deep and very much like that. And then, so I was walking around kind of a bit like Margaret Thatcher. And then they also wanted me to play like Arcadena and the Seagull and stuff that was very mature. And I mean, Blinking Ecker tried as hard as I could. It's really difficult, right? When you're just turned 18 to be really being believable when you're playing like a 50 year old, you know, very mature actress and all of that sort of stuff. But yeah, I remember, I'd left Rada, and then I came back to do my tree, which is when you do your monologues and all of that. And it was this agent's, this director's assistant from Rada.

And I remember the last thing anyone said to me, he looked at me and he said, I always, he said, I know what it is. I always thought you were shit, but now I know what it is. Is that you're Welsh? And that's the last thing that anybody ever said to me. But it was like, you know, we need to get rid of the Welshness, the sweetness, the whatever. And I remember them saying.

you need to start listening to Radio 4 because then you just need to listen, you know, to those voices. But I was so terrified by that point at being told that I was shit and that I couldn't act. I was too scared to ask what Radio 4 was. Because, I mean, I was in like an acting class with my teacher, you know, saying to me, there was one exercise when I had to be saying goodbye,

social services were coming around to take my children away from me. It was my last night with them. And I tried my very best, you know, to improvise and do this. And it was, I wasn't very good. I didn't really know what I was doing. And I remember her standing me up in front of the class and saying, I can't do anything with you. Honestly, I don't know what to do with you.

You're shit. You can't act. I just don't know what to do. And I started crying. And then she said, oh, God, she's crying now. Okay, let's just use the tears. Tell me about when you thought your father had a brain tumour and you thought that he was going to die.

So I was standing there, just crying, just going, well, his head started hurting and, you know, I started sobbing. Has that actually happened to you? Oh, yeah, yeah, my dad. It wasn't a brain tumour. He had like this brain virus and we'd been, I've been at home with my boyfriend in Swansea and we've been on C-Fax because I mean that's how you like booked holidays. We still had, right, we had C-fax and dad was downstairs in the living room and we were trying to book a holiday and he was trying to do it and then completely in utterly out of the blue. And my dad, right, he's like a really strong Welsh man.

My God, right, if he's ill, if he's sick, he will not tell you until my God, you know, he's like practically dropping down dead or something. And there's no sign of weakness at all. And he sat then, he was trying to do something. And all of a sudden, he said, oh, God, I've got a really bad headache. My head's really hurting. And then he said, I'm going to have to go upstairs and lie down. And that in itself was just, Dad would never do that. So I got him some tablets, and he went upstairs, and I closed the curtains, and he lay on the bed.

And I phoned mum. And then I said, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. You know, Dad's really bad. But she came home from work then and went into the room. And then it was quite clear that, you know, she phoned for our local doctor. because at the time you'd still have a doctor who would like come home to the house

and he came round to the house and he said he thought it was a brain hemorrhage and I just remember saying phone the ambulance and then the ambulance arrived and I was outside with my boyfriend at the time and I remember them carrying my dad down the stairs and he went out of the front door into the ambulance and I remember sitting on the bottom step

and the doctor saying to me you need to be prepared because this is what we think that it is and if they're carried out of the house like this you know, with something with their brain, then they don't, you know, they don't normally come back. And you need to be prepared for that. And then I just remember getting in the car with my boyfriend and just going all the way up to the hospital and we sat there for ages, just waiting and waiting and waiting. They did so many different tests on him.

He was in there, you know, for a while. And then all of a sudden it was just like, well, we think it's a brain virus. We don't really know what it is. Although, right, saying this now, right, I don't know if I was completely and utterly lied to. Because so, so as far as I know, mum said it was a brain virus. They couldn't really find out what it was. And then within like the next morning, he was sitting up in bed and he was all all right again.

And that's as far as I know, you know, what it was. So it was like a brain virus. And the time it was utterly horrific and it was really awful. And so I feel like now I need to go back and ask mum again if she does know anything else about it. Because I remember years ago when I was small and I had a rabbit and I must have been eight or something. No, it wasn't the rat.

Well, it was the rabbit as well. They told me that the rabbit had gone somewhere else. And it's because of fox setting. it right and they didn't tell me that. And then there was Tiddles, my cat, and it must have been when I was about seven or eight, and she was just gorgeous. And they told me that Tiddles had loved another family more.

And so she'd left and gone with them, and I remember being devastated, because I'd loved that cat so much. And I didn't understand why I'd loved it so much and how that love wasn't enough, and she'd still left. And it was only when I was mid-30s that mum said, oh, Tiddles, no, she was run over on Roger Street.

And I was like, why are you? I don't understand why you didn't tell me, because I'm 35 and I'm still carrying that even though I gave all that love to that cat, it wasn't enough. He just fucked me up. So I'm saying now about my dad riding for all I know, something serious could have happened and she could have just lied. Your dad had some, yeah, he had a brain virus, Joe. Yeah.

Just let's move on. Let's move on. So that was quite a traumatic thing. Yeah, it was awful. A tutor at college, at Rada, sorry, they would balk at being called at college, at Rada says, well, she's crying now because I've reduced her to tears. So we may as well lean into this. So she starts talking about this horrific traumatic experience.

She starts saying, tell me all about what happened to your father and making me stand there in front of everybody, sobbing and talking through the whole experience again so I can relive it and then you know connect these tears now with that and my emotions and so it's all connected to some really big sense memory and in the end one of the girls got up and she came and she put her arm around me and she said this is wrong i mean this is just wrong you can't do this to her and so it was like it was just like that all the time until in the end i just got so sort of closed off that i couldn't really do anything and the stuff they wanted me to do which i can understand was always very like sexual or confident or you know discovering myself as a woman or being, you know, very maternal or mature. It was all, you know, because I was, I was, you know, I was tiny. I was 18. I was really sweet. I was, you know, I was utterly terrified and I was trying my best to like reach these emotions and be sexual and be, I mean, it was so flipping hard. I mean, it was, you know, and particularly when you sort of venture yourself out and then, you know, and then you just sort of shut down straight away and told that, well, it's just that you're just

rubbish. There's a bit that is so interesting hearing you talk about that because there's a bit in the book where you talk, you were really like anti-nudity, but you weren't anti-being naked, like you were saying like you used to streak down Swansea High Street or whatever. I may have got the location wrong. Oh yeah, mumble's seafront. Mumble's seafront. That could have been another, that could have been another book title, streaking down Mumble's seafront. But you used to, so it wasn't that you were uncomfortable with your body, but it was that you were uncomfortable with getting naked for purely gratuitous sexual reasons? And also, yes, I think just being sexual as well. And I think that comes a lot from being an only child and being so sort of loved and everything

was put into me. So I was like a golden girl and everything was all about being good and being perfect and being, you know, really being good in school and everything. And I think a lot of that was being an only child, but also my personality as well. I always want to do well. If I'm going to do something, I throw myself into it 100% and I'm always, you know, always wanting to be the good girl. But I think a lot of it as well was to do with my mum, because there's a whole thing as well with, you know, my grandpa who was an alcoholic and this whole thing with my mother about always being perfect. And then I think me being an only child and the way that I am naturally anyway, personality-wise, I had this thing about always being a good girl and being perfect and

being good and being head-girl in both schools. Head-girl twice. I mean, many of us never get to be head girl once, but head girl twice. Can I go back to your childhood? Sorry, can I talk to you about your granddaughter? Because that really stood out for me was that you wrote, and you don't make much of it, but you talk about like be, because you obviously are really close family. So your grandfather's alcoholism didn't,

it didn't stop you from being near him or, and actually you talk about going to AA meetings with him as an 11 year old. Yeah, which was just huge. And I really thought, like, how much of that should I talk about? And because I have just briefly talked about it because my relationship with my nan, my nan was such a strong woman. She was amazing. She was a matron and she was strong and she was such a role model.

And I just carry so much stuff that I learned from her and her strength with me all the time. But also it was a difficult relationship because, you know, she had a really hard time with my grandpa. And, you know, I think that made her quite, bitter and quite angry a lot of the time. But yeah, as a young child, I was an only child. I was very sort of, I loved talking to adults, being on my own, didn't have any massive desire to be, like, surrounded by loads and loads of children and want to play with loads of

children. I loved, you know, chatting with the adults and being included. I loved my own space and my own time. And so, you know, going to like the AA meetings and then going to visit him. I mean, he was in rehab, a load of, you know, lots of different times. He was making a concerted effort to be sober. Well, he tried to. Yes. He tried to. Yes. He try to, but it would never, I don't, you know, we thought there were so many times that he had, but he'd never reached rock bottom. I mean, there were lots of times where it's like, my God, this has got to be rock bottom. But it was never, obviously, rock bottom for him, because it was never enough for him to, you know, then change. He could never change. He was in rehab. My gosh,

I think it was about three times. And I remember one of the last times when I went to visit him. And it was in Kevin Coyd, which is like the local, you know, mental hospital in Swanson when we're going to visit him. And there were lots of different people there for lots of different reasons. And it was just, oh, it was just, it was always, it was really hard. And it's just, it's weird though, you know, when you write a book, because you go back and then you kind of realize why you're like this now, because it was really hard and it was really difficult because he's my grandpa. And it was really upsetting. And then going into an environment, you know, like that, which, you know, you see lots of different people dealing with loads of different things. And

it is really upsetting when you're only small. But I'd always put a face on and always try and make everybody laugh and cheer everybody along. I'd sit there and I'd chat to him and try and put on a show and a bit of a performance and but yeah but it was just it was you know it was just difficult and then going to a meetings and you know talking about it and listening and being part of the family and stuff it was very grown up and I can't

say that I particularly enjoyed it at that age what was it about being taken to AA meetings as an 11 year old that you didn't that made you think mum I don't want to go to grounds for the weekends no I'm really fascinated at it though

because I think I I know I know a little bit about alcoholism myself, being one, and being sober and doing 12-step meetings myself all the time. And you do often see people, they need to get to a meeting, so they will bring a child. And the child will now, you know, obviously back in that day, you wouldn't, you wouldn't have the iPad and the headphones. But I often think to myself, it's really interesting, like to be, you know, you talk about in the book about how alcoholism doesn't just affect the person suffering from it? It's the whole family and all of that.

And I remember because it was strange because I'd love going down to Nan and Grandpa's and I'd love being there and you know, Grams was so lovely and you know, but I'd be very, I'd be very I'd half love it right because Nan was a matron of an old people's home and so she'd have all these grounds and I'd go off and I'd be

in different worlds and she'd have dressing up clothes and I'd be, you know, doing all of this and in my own world running around the gardens and then the other half was sort of listening to them bicker and argue and then Grandpa hiding bottles of whiskey behind the telly and the nan finding out and all of that going on in the background and me being aware of it and then seeing him, you know, go in and whenever he's gone and then trying to, you know, have a drink of whiskey and me trying to make it better and stop that

from happening and then feeling unsafe. And so not wanting to sleep over and grandpa making me, you know, all of his music which he'd play for me on the cassette. And also I've got really happy memories of that, but also there were memories which were sort of in sadness as well because I'd feel uncomfortable and I'd want to go home and I wouldn't really like leaving the house a lot and then also that sort of kind of bled in then to what I was like as a child really because I'd hate going around for sleepovers

in other people's houses I just sort of like the safety and security of just being with mum and dad in my house you know I'd go out and I'd play with other people but my God if ever there was a sleepover or anything like that I'd always go and then I'd have to phone up and I'd have made up you know acted that I was sick or something

and I'd have to come back home and I'd be like oh God I feel safe now I feel safe and secure here. Wow. That's so amazing. But I think that I, God, I wasn't an only child, but I was always, my mum was always getting calls at midnight to come and pick me up. It's weird, isn't it?

Isn't it weird? Because, yeah, because I'd go and I'd be all up for it. But then as soon as I was like in someone else's house and it starts getting dark and you start feeling a bit unsafe and it was just like, I don't know, I was got to get out of you, I just want to get out of you. So you, so you think that, that, you know, like connecting that thing of, needing to cheer people up maybe a bit when you went round to your grandparents, needing to be the light.

Well, yeah, and I'm still like that now. And it's only at the age of 48 that I am starting to say no. And I'm starting to think, oh, my God, it's okay to be you. Because I was always growing up, right? Always kind of, you know, either putting on a face or being more grown up or talking with everybody and always putting a bit of a show on and being perfect. And perfect means, you know, there's sort of nothing really. sexual about you. You're just this really shining, wonderful, you know, head girl and good girl.

And I think I've carried that forward in the way that I am, you know, when I grow up. And like, say, I'll go and do a show or something. And other people turn up. And they just sit there and they're just like normal and like a grown up. I'm just quite relaxed. And they just like, and I'm still like, you know, I've got so much energy sometimes. And because I'm trying to always be perfect and good and whatever. My husband says, for Christ's sake, just be you. Just calm down. Just, you know, you don't always have to make everything perfect all the time. But maybe you is this energy. Oh, fucking hell. Can you? I'm not like this back home with him. I'm like, I'm like, oh, no, when I go back home, I'm still, I'm always, no, I'm still very,

I'm still like this, but I'm much more sort of, I can just relax and I can just be me. But I do think that the way, and then now at 48, I've thought, right, okay, you can just bloody be yourself now. Just be yourself. And I think writing this book as well, there were moments when I went, oh God, let's just not do this because it's too personal now. It's starting to be too personal. And then I thought, well, no, I can't. If I'm going to write a book, it's the same as normal. I've got to be perfect. I've got to give it my all. And then I just thought, oh, you know what? I can either try and be a bit more sophisticated and a bit more whatever, or I can just go, right, okay, this is me. I'm sort of going to just, I'm just going to just actually be me.

And I am sort of dreading the bits when my mum gets to in the end of the book where she'll go, oh, Joanna, did you have to talk about pooing in a car park? And I'm just going to be like, well, yeah, because I'm not perfect. I should have called it that, yeah, I'm not perfect. Yeah, I'm not perfect.

There's a lot, I mean, there's pooing in a car parts, pooing, shitting in a skip. I know. But I don't know to talk about, I mean, like, I'm interested, I love all of that. But I'm listening to you and I'm like, you see, the thing is, though, right? You talk about perfection,

and you talk about being perfect, and you talk about giving it your all, and not, you know, but like I think the thing about you, Joe, can I call you Joe, can I call you, you know, is that you're not, you know, your perfectionism isn't like, I guess it's, there's such an authenticity to you, do you know what I mean? So why you're giving it you're all, you're also always being you. Yes. Does that make sense? Yes. So I think that it's like it's not, it's not like, I don't know, that might be some thing of, some iteration. of this where people grew up thinking I need to be perfect and then they would be very like yes you know like proper and yes and perhaps shut down their character yes you know whereas I feel with you that you there's some that one of the things that I love about you and I've always loved about you even before I just met you do I mean yeah for years is that that sense of your energy and your light sort of shines through does that make sense your character

completely, because I do think I was grown up to be like, oh, I'm perfect. But also, it's in me. I mean, it's in me. I'm in Ares. I want to win. I want to do my best. I am ambitious. If I'm going to go and do something, you know, I want to do it like 100%.

And I want to succeed. I want to win. There's like that real, you know, drive within me. I did this show. Oh my God, a couple of years ago when it was a cooking thing, right? I don't particularly enjoy cooking. And I remember, and I don't think I'm amazing at it, right? And I started doing it.

And I thought, oh, God, you know, if you get through the first round, that's absolutely fine, right? You probably won't. So I practiced my first dish, and I was like, right, okay, there we go, that's it. I got through the first round. Then I got through the second round, and then I was, like, winging it, right? And I was sort of making it up as I went along. It's like Celebrity Master Shell is, like, it's cooking with the stars. Oh, oh, right, yeah.

And I was completely nuttally winging it, right? I've never used a pressure cooker before. And I was like, I was making it up on the spot. And I was going through, Jesus, and I got all the way through to the final. But halfway through, right, it just kicked into me. this suddenly like, oh my God, okay, right, I can genuinely do this. And then I got really angry with myself because I thought, you know what, right? If you'd have bloody put your mind to it, and if you'd have just practiced and you'd have just like,

if you'd have put your mind to it, you would be like sort of sailing through right now. And you'd be like, you'd be enjoying what you're doing because you can do it. And I got really angry with myself. And then I started throwing myself into it because I was like, I want to win. I want to win. I want to get to the end. Because there is this massive drive in me, which is I want to succeed. That's why I was like, no, I'm still.

in Rada. I am going to London. I am staying in Rada. However bad it is, I'm not going home. I'll just, I'll get through it and I'm going to do it. And then so that is that massive drive in me all the way through. And it was only since having children that that sort of drive has tapered off. Because I suppose I've now put it into something else. And I'm now like, my God, I see my identity now as I'm mum. And that is like, wharf, I just want to do everything with that. So whatever I decide to sort of put my mind to, I do have this huge drive of, I want to be perfect. I want to be like my best. I want to beat everybody else.

And so it's not just, you know, the way I was brought up. It's like massively in me anyway. There's, it's so interesting because the book kind of opens with you, uh, auditioning for a role in the musical of dirty dancing. Yeah. And you get very close to getting that role. And you're told you've got it and you're told you're this. And, you know, and then at the time you're working at a shoe shop in East Dulwich.

And you don't get the role. But you, you've kind of throw. you put everything into it and that's what's really hard about the acting job as well yeah because no matter how hard you work or how much you put into it there's always something that's like out of your control that you never you never can sort of sit back and go oh my god it's in my control if i work like really really really hard i know that i'm going to get it there's always that thing where you basically spend the whole of your life feeling like you're just not good enough and it gets so flipping exhausting i was going to say i because i like my

note was, I've just written, like I wrote down, surviving rejection, question mark, question mark, question mark. It's exhausting. And I've got to the age now where I'm starting now, because part of writing this book as well was that I just thought, Jesus, I'm knackered. I just want to do something different as well. So for all these years, you know, I've acted and acted and acted. And now I've started doing presenting, which I like, because I've got control over it, right? And so I'm not at somebody's whim and whatever, say if you've got the job or if you haven't.

I mean, still somebody is higher in me, but I've got things much more in my control because you can, you fight and you fight and you fight for parts and then you're lucky and you get them and you do whatever. But it's always a constant fight. And I thought, I'm exhausted. I've been doing it since I was 18. I'm now 48 and I just want to do something different.

And you know, just like sitting down and writing and going, this is in my control. Not answering to anybody aside from my editor going, it should be in today, and then me completely having a breakdown and shitting myself. But aside from that, it's like, this is in my control, and I can do something which is different. And it's really nice to just be like that for a bit.

One of the things that really struck me is that thing of being told, oh, like, there's a bit in the book where someone says to your agent, oh, she needs to be a bit prettier or a bit this, that, the other. Like, that would really throw my head. Yeah. In the beginning, it sort of hits you a bit, but you can sort of, like, cover it. Because I remember right from being, a memory that always, like, really sticks out for me when I was young. And I must have been about, like, I don't know, 14, 15 or something.

And I went to an all-girls school, so we had no contact with boys at all. And I must have been about 15, because I remember I went to a pool party, and one of the girls had really big boobs. And she had, like, this bikini, which was like a half-top type thing, and it was black, and I had Snoopy over the front of it. and it was really cool, and I wanted a bikini like it as well, right? And I was completely and utterly flat-chested, and I didn't get boobs until I was 35 after I had my first baby.

I was, like, really flat-chested. And I remember this girl, she had really bit, well, most of the girls had boobs. And there was a boy at the party, and I was there in the water, and he said, oh, my God, what's wrong with you? And I said, oh, what do you mean? And he said, oh, my God, what is wrong with you? You haven't got any boobs. You're just really flat, you haven't got anything.

And I just remember being completely gutted and so embarrassed. and then it was like straight away putting this show on again of being like oh I don't care and putting this film on again of you know hiding it and that all was just like I really remember that stuck with me and I've always had this ability of when they've been embarrassing things or when I've had a really embarrassing review or when I've it does it hits me and then I've and then I do just have to go right

and I bring a thing down and I can manage to just shut it out and so by the time I'd sort of because I was never you know it was never pretty I was never cool I was never in, you know, the cool crowd or whatever. I was in an all-girls school all the way through, like, comprehensive. You know, I didn't kiss a boy until I was 17, and I didn't have a clue what I was doing. I was never, ever one of the cool girls.

So I was always used to being, you know, just like always having to sort of put a face on and, you know, just always like that. And so at the time I'd done that when I was growing up, which everybody does, because that's like being a teenager, isn't it? And then by the time I got all the way through Rada when I was told I was shit for about three, well, two and a half years, by the time you come out and you start acting,

and you really actually don't really care. And all of your being in your body just becomes like this vessel. And you're used to actually not being able to really wear makeup or do your eyebrows or your hair or coloring your hair or doing anything at all to your body that is unique or makes you like, you know, like, oh, I fancy having a perm

or I want to do whatever, I want to shave my head. Or you can't do any of that because you've always got to be neutral because you don't know what you're going to be cast as. So I would always just be like neutral body. My hair would always be down to about here. normally with like no colour or just a small bit of blonde, but, you know, there's no point in doing that

because as soon as you get a job, that always has to go back to normal colour or a red or a whatever. So all of this was just sort of neutral. So when my agent phone said they don't think you're pretty enough, I genuinely didn't care. And I thought, well, I'm not going to like a department store because they'll plaster me and makeup.

I'll do my own thing. It's just another hurdle that you've got to get over. And once you've got over that one, oh, there's going to be another one where she's not sexy enough or she's too skinny or she doesn't look right or her accent's not right. you spend so much of your time and then you get a wall up and it doesn't affect you then, you know, until you get to like later on

you just think, I can't be asked anymore, I'm too bloody tired. I mean, you're just wonderful. I would just ask you, so let's go back to the shoe shop and being told that you can't get the role of dirty dancing and you think, fucking out, why, maybe I'll just work in this, maybe I'll just sit in this box of crocs and do this job. And it was lovely. But of course, then, of course, there's a reason, you know, like I always sing,

the universe moves in mysterious ways because you weren't supposed to get that dirty dancing job. So then you get asked to go and audition for this little no role of Stacey. And, you know, like in a way, it's like, then it starts to make, I mean, later you'll be like, oh, of course, that's why. I couldn't have done the dirty dancing.

I'm exactly the same. Everything happens for a reason. And you've got to kind of keep that in your head anyway because you're rejected so many times as an actress. So many things don't work out or you might do a job or you think, oh my God, it's the job of my dreams

and then it completely bombs and it goes for nothing. But yeah, I was devastated because I'd given it my all. I'd been out of work for a bit and with dirty dancing, I'd shoved everything into it. I'd given it my all.

I'd got down to the last three. And also, I felt like I was baby. I was sick of going up for, you know, sexy roles of the And I just, I couldn't, you know, it wasn't comfortable to me. And I just thought, oh my God, this is going to be it.

You know, this'll be it. And then I didn't get it. and then I went back to the shoe shop and life was really nice. It was calm. It was lovely, right? I could put a pretty dress on in the morning, nice little pair of shoes. I'd have my packed lunch, just walk up the road, go in the shoe shop, just gnaturing with the girls all day, sorting through crocs.

I didn't want to be out front. I didn't want to have to sell anything to everybody because I was rubbish at it and I didn't like pushing stuff on people. And it was like, this is nice. It's lovely. I can go home to James. I probably would have had kids earlier and then, you know, like had more of them. And I would have been settled.

I think I'd have done my own business eventually or something. But, yeah, but then I remember my agent and he phoned and he said, I've sent this script round. And I remember sitting in our bedroom and I opened it. And for some reason, right, I thought it was a play. And when he phoned, in my head, I just had it that it was a play. And I remember turning the page and you could see it was written like, you know, it was a telly show.

And I remember thinking, oh, God, what is this? And then I started reading it and I was so shocked because I'd never read anything like that before. Because everything, my God, when I was in Ryan, you had the whole Scottish thing and train spotting and all of that going on. Then you had the massive big Irish thing and then it was like the northern thing. And also if you were like any of those accents as well, you basically could do that accent in anything. And I would go up for countless auditions and it was either right, you've got to be English or you've got to be RP. I was out at the same time as Kira Knightley as well.

So like all of the jobs, right, I went in for Pirates of the Caribbean and then she's like straight in after me. And I mean, you just can't beat that. And as soon as, you know, because they were like certain roles And you'd be like, Jesus Christ is the same ones again. And it's like, you just can't beat that. And as much as I tried to do an English accent, for me, I'd never fully be able to like give myself to the character. And you never had the Welsh thing.

We had Twin Town. And that was like, that was like, oh, there we are. You've had your bit now. You've had Twin Town. That's your lot now. And there was nothing, you know, nothing else. And suddenly there was this script. And it was like South Wales.

It was people I knew. It was really well written. And I thought, my God, this is unbelievable. this is like this character is me it's my voice oh my god you know this is it this is like the closest i've ever ever got to like you know to me and then i my first thought was oh my god if this goes to some fucker who's got famous parents i'd be devastated or if this goes to somebody right who's famous just because they've been on like a reality show you know i'd be famous and i've got nothing against those right because even my daughter now wants to be an actress

so i you know she'll be the fucker who's got like a famous parent and everything so everything goes you know, and all of that. So, I mean, I've got no right to say anything like that. And I've done reality shows, so I've got no right to say anything. But that was my mindset at that time. I thought, oh, my God, I have got to get this. And then I remember going in, you know,

when I went into the toilets, went down to Spotlight in Leicester Square. And it's so hard because you desperately want it. And then you've got to sort of still act cool. And, oh, after you've been doing it for such, you know, a long time, it just gets so exhausting. But I met Ruth and in the toilets and I just thought she was incredible,

because she'd just done nighty night with Julia Davis. And it was like this comedy that I'd sort of grown up with. That's how I started loving acting in the first place because I discovered French and Saunders and Victoria Wood and Ruby Wax. And you know, like Miranda Richardson playing Queenie. And it was like this comedy that just had like this darker edge and like Miriam Margulies and these really funny, strong comedic women who you also thought, my God, they could turn around and kill me.

I mean, there's just like this is hugely dramatic but also really funny. And here was one of them standing in front of me. She'd just been Linda in Nighty Night with Julia Davis. And I just, oh, my God, this is just incredible. So I told her how wonderful I thought she was. And then she said, oh, I think you're great in love actually. And, you know, I think you're, you know, stuff. And then she went in.

And then she said to our director, I just found Stacey, which was, you know, good. But I didn't know that. And then I went in and then I met Ted, our producer and Chris, our director. All I did was talk away all about, you know, the dirty dancing, losing out on it, told them all about that. read the scenes and then left, and then they said, okay, right, we've just found Stacey. And then I was called back in then to read with Matthew Horn, and then Ruth said, Stacey's from Cardiff, like Nessa.

So, you know, she's got her accents a lot harder. Can you work on a Cardiff accent? And I was just really gutted because I just thought, I'm going to just lose out again. You know, I can't do a Cardiff accent. I don't really know what one sounds like. I don't have the internet. There's just like this, you know, shop on Warren Street, which was a bookstore, and they sold cassette tapes. And I thought, I can't be asked to go all the way up there to try and find a card of accent.

I'm just not going to do it. So I turned up for my recall, and I was really scared because Matt was like, he's dry and he's witty and sarcastic. And he's naturally, you know, got comedy timing because he's done stand-up and he's done Catherine Tate. And I was just like this serious actress who trained at, right, this classical actress. And I just thought, oh, my God. And he was going on about his Fred Perry polo shirt. and he was really cool and I just felt really nerdy

and out of my depth but I went in and I thought well you know I could just feel Stacy I could just be her and I thought it's all you've got to do so we started reading and I started talking

very you know all like this very well she and Ruth had to go can you just stop for a minute will you come outside and so I went outside and she said oh my God what are you doing you sound awful so I said I'm trying to do a card of accent

I don't know how to do it and she went to look just don't worry about it go in and just do your normal voice and just read with Matt and I went in and read with him and we just clicked. It just came naturally and it was just brilliant. And then I left and, you know, not that long after I got a phone call saying you've got the job. It's, I mean, and what it was meant to be.

Yeah, it was. It was meant to be because if I'd have gone down the other route, you know, it never would have happened and somebody else would have played Stacey and that would have been their journey then. I was rewatching it this weekend with my husband and my daughter and I was thinking it took me back to it's so it's so funny there's a couple of things I wanted to say the first thing is I love the friendship between Stacey and Nessa is really like goals oh I love it yeah yeah and then the other thing is that I was the first the first series of Gavin and Stacey so you know we talk about like a different time the naughties when you know

like things you know men were allowed to grow past say awful things yes but also that episode the first series of Gavin and Stacey I presume before it moved from BBC 3 to BBC 1 yeah it was quite like I was so risky and it's really like I watched because I hadn't seen it since it first came out and I started watching it with Eva who's 12 yeah just before you know the finale so we've done the whole lot right put the first episode on and I was kind of like oh my god and there were like loads of bits that I was having to fast forward through and go oh wait there mummy's just doing something okay we're And we're going to just, okay, right, okay, we can watch it again. In episode six of the first series, when you've got that full-on sex scene halfway through at the wedding.

Yeah. It's like, Jesus Christ. I mean, the first series was like, oh, my God, you can see that we're on BBC 3. And then as it goes on and then it just like slowly gets more and more and more toned down and more family friendly. I mean, there's such a huge change from the beginning to the end. And I remember being a bit sad about like just my character because I thought, oh God, I like the fact, right, that Stacey, was really sweet and lovely but like dirty underneath

and I liked playing that and I liked the way Stacey was and I got a bit sad that as it went on she sort of toned down and became much more like oh I'm a mum now and I've got you know the children and that sort of went a bit

So how can I ask you about your journey from because there's a bit towards the end of the book you know you talk about how you don't you're like you just mentioned how you don't really you're like maybe I don't want to maybe I can't be bothered to do any of this acting anymore

or any of this stuff this pretending and then you say at the end of the book you're like, I would quite like to be either a yoga instructor or a sex therapist. Yes. Okay, so can we talk about this? Yes. Because I was like, I, so listening to you, I'm like, I feel like there must have been some journey that you have gone on from, like, we can be a good girl and we can be sexy as well. How have you, how have you married those two?

I don't think I have to be honest, though. I don't think I have. I've always wanted to be like a sex therapist because I've always. Well, mind you, no, but actually before having children as well, there was this whole sort of dark side to me where I've been really interested in serial killers. So, like, after one, when I first said, I've always been fascinated by humans.

And that's probably like why I'm an actress as well because I love sitting there and people watching. And just watching people, seeing what they're like, making up different stories, you know, like, I wonder why they're like this and what's going on. And, oh, we see this on the surface, but what's actually going on back home and what are they really like?

And I've always been fascinated by serial. killers and after Gavin and Stacey first came out and everyone's like oh and everyone wants to meet you and they're like please can we do a documentary with you and oh can we do you know what can we do and I'm always my first thing is I'd really like to go into prisons and talk to men who've you know committed crimes and murdered people and they're like oh can we do something with animals but my first thought is that and then sort of the whole sex therapy and relationships and why you know that's not working out and, you know, all about, you know, relationships and couples and like, and more than couples and, you know, all of that whole dynamic, all about human relationships and why we

are the way that we are now. So I think now, I thought, yeah, you know, I'd like to train and I'd like now to go into, you know, couples therapy or relationship therapy or, you know, sex therapy and see, see how it goes. Do you, I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, the other thing about you is that you've, like, you, I'm not going to articulate myself very well here, but you, like you know, I feel like you know yourself so well. Oh yes. I think yeah. Yeah, I definitely do. And I think that's the way that I was, well, yeah, I think that's the way I was brought up, because being brought up opposite the sea and my parents are really down to worth. And my dad, he's very, very down to worth. And yeah, and I think, yeah, I think it's just sort of,

the way I was brought up. But yeah, I just think it's in me as well. Because I can't stand. And I think it's where I'm from, too. I can't stand it. So I find it very difficult to take seriously the whole sort of showbiz and all of that world and I think it's all just so flipping ridiculous it's exciting and it's fun I mean like you know when we first got nominated for Gavin and Stacey and we went to the comedy awards and everybody's there and you've got all the comedians and everyone's taking themselves like really seriously and it means so much to everybody and then you know we win so that you know we go into like the gifting suite and then there's a woman there with a suitcase saying I'll drag it around behind us you choose anything you want

and just think how ridiculous it all is. And I'm like, oh, I'll carry it for you. Don't be so ridiculous. And then after a while, I'm like, okay, actually, this is really good fun. And you get carried away with all of it. But I do think, and I don't think I've ever taken it seriously all the way through, even though everything's meant so much to me.

And my acting career has meant so much. I've never really taken anything, like seriously. And that's why I think that I've never sort of been as good as I could as an actor. Because when I think when I first came out of drama school, I think I should have. I'd taken sort of doing different accents I mean when I first came out of Rada oh my God the amount of jobs I lost out on

I mean mostly to Kira Knightley but the amount of jobs I lost out on was normally because my accent wasn't good enough and I'd not learnt my lines enough and I'd not really like taking the whole thing seriously because I thought it was all just slightly ridiculous well it sort of is slightly ridiculous and I think now I've sort of got to a point

where I'm sort of quite happy that I can now kind of kind of of eventually be myself. I'm enjoying presenting. I can be myself and I can dip into acting because writing this book made me kind of get that magic back because you've got that magic and you love acting and being a different person. But then you get on a set and then there's just a whole other world of like actors and status and, you know, mind games and all of that. And I just think, I can't be bothered with this. I just want to get on set and I just want to, you know, I just want to act. That's what I'm here for. You see, I think I want you, I would like you to do more

I want you to do less being other people and more being you. Yes, because I'm enjoying it. Whatever job involves getting to be you, whether it's going into prisons and interviewing serial killers or doing cute things with animals, which I know you have done. That's what I want from you. What I also get from you is this sense that you've always known how to speak up for yourself. Yes.

And you definitely know, you have a very firm, understanding of what's right and what's wrong. Yes. And there's this one bit that you rise about in the book. You're on this show and you play a wren in the Navy. And the people making the show are like, we want to get all of you. Oh God, it was ridiculous.

The scene with the women. Yeah, well, they wanted you in skimpy outfits. Absolutely ridiculous, yeah. So we've been filming and then they say, oh, it was this rewrite now. We've got a new scene coming in. And so there's a brand new scene which comes in, and it's just all with the girls. And so we're all in our, we had like our combaty gear and our DMs on.

And we're all sitting on the floor and we're all playing cards together, all of the Wrens. And we're all wrens who are all very young, like early, you know, mid-20s wrens. And so we start reading the scene and we all quickly learn it. And so we all started acting it. And we were like, this is absolutely ridiculous. This is basically us in one outfit and then taking off all of our clothes. so we're in bra and pants and then putting the other outfit on.

I mean, this is like absolutely, there's no other point to it. And so we all, and I remember going, oh my God, this is shit, who's written this? And then the producer said,

I have. And I went, oh, I'm terribly sorry. I'm awfully sorry about that. And then we had to carry it. And we were all like, this is bloody ridiculous. So we all just said,

well, we're not going to do it. And we carried out the scene and we acted all of it out and the alarm went off. And then we spent the rest of the scene until, you know, the end of it talking.

And just, and doing our job. DMs and they take so long to do and undo and then we take them off but the time we got to the end of the scene it was like oh god sorry i've only managed to get one DM off you know and then we did that until it was quite clear we weren't taking our clothes off and that was the end of the scene i mean this is absolutely ridiculous but i've always been able to talk up for myself and i do know right from wrong and um and saying that though right i'm not always like misperfect and whatever i know right from wrong but i've fucked up like loads of times and but then beaten myself up about it and

gone, oh my God, because I do know, you know, I've got a real moral right from wrong. And I can always speak up for myself, but there have been moments where I've gone completely mute. I mean, oh my God, there was a time working with one actor in theatre. And, oh, my God, and he was so sort of full on and so sort of degrading in the language he used towards me because I wasn't up for offer with him, you know. I was just like, it was, nothing was going to be happening with me. The guy that used very sexually aggressive. No, that was a different one. This was a different one on a theatre job. And I was just like, there was nothing going to happen with me. And the way he then dealt with it was being so derogatory towards me in just

the stuff that he said and the way that he'd speak to me. And I just went completely mute. They've only really been two times and I'd remember going completely mute and I just couldn't respond. And then on the other job when, you know, I had to go out with this fellow. It was just a scene with just me and him in. And then, oh, my God, this sexual language he used. And even though I Right, people can use sexual lounge, they can do whatever, and I can normally turn around and give it straight back, or I'm used to standing up for myself, I'm used to working with men and being like, I can be quite chopsy back and just, I can put a stop to things normally. Oh God, but this thing with this other fella, it lasted all day.

And it was so embarrassing and it was so awful, because it wasn't banter. And it was, I didn't know really what it was or how to respond to it. So I just sort of was, it would just be like, you know, just sort of just going inside myself and just doing like a sort of uncomfortable giggle until we got back to the trailers and I thought I'm not fucking putting up with that again, right? I know I've not stood up for myself and I've sat there and I've not said anything about it because I just couldn't and I didn't know what to do when I've just frozen. But I'm not putting up with it again. So I remember calling the producers in and saying, I don't know how to describe what's just happened to me. I don't actually know what it is,

but I think I've been sexually bullied. Because I knew I've been bullied, but it was like so sexual well, but I'd never really experienced that extent of it. So I just didn't really know what it was. So I put a stop to that, but at the time I couldn't, because I think with women as well, my God, we're used to, you know, from the early 2000s and all of that, we're used to standing up for ourselves, we're used to having to give back banter and be a bit of a lad and make sure that you whatever. But I think when the real, real hard stuff happens, then my God, I found that I've just

gone completely mute. And even though I'm quite bawlsy, I have gone mute and I just freeze. and I'm kind of like, oh, God, I just can't even respond. Well, that's a sort of, that's a survival mechanism, isn't it? It is, isn't it? It is, yes. Because there's another, there's another bit that you write about, which is, you, I think it's when you're playing Eve. Yes.

So you are naked for, and you're back in the, or there's some role that you have on stage. Yeah. And you're back in your dressing room and you're by yourself and you've got nothing on. Yeah. And a famous theatre director comes in. Yeah. And you, and despite. the fact that you have nothing on and you immediately grab for the curtain to wrap yourself

like a caterpillar. Yes. And despite that, he still comes up to you and he tries to give you a kiss on the cheek. Yeah. Well, yeah, he comes. So I'm wrapped all around in this thing and thinking, oh my God, I'm not going to let this go. Oh, God, you know. And then he comes in and he comes and he holds me and cuddles me and then he kisses me and then he just stands there, like literally right next to me this far away and just talks and talks and talks. And I'm just standing there, just talking back and, you know, and it was quite clear that nothing, I was, I wasn't going to do anything. And, and I stayed there and just had to just sort of wait it out until eventually it was like, okay, then, you know, and then he just goes. But it's just, you know, it was just, and I couldn't

have, I mean, you know, I could have said, oh, do you mind, I've got anything on or whatever, or, but at that time, I couldn't say anything. I just had to just stand and just wait and think, well, I'm not letting this go and, and just wait for it just to be over. Because there was such a power imbalance. Oh, God, there was a massive power in balance. I mean, huge. So do you think that things have got better? Because you read about, you write about how there's now numbers on scripts. Yes, but to be perfectly honest, and I know it's really negative, I think half of it has, right,

because I do think, you know, the actresses do have more control and you do have a number on there that you can phone if you feel you're being bullied or something uncomfortable has happened. And so I do feel that, you're not just women, but people, you know, can speak up and say that something has happened. And then also you do have. have intimacy coaches. So if you are doing scenes where you are vulnerable, you have got someone there that you can talk to and they make you feel safe. Even if you don't want to use them,

you've just got someone there who does have your back. But I still think in this industry, it's an industry where everything is so like floaty and all over the place and, you know, it's still run by, you know, the men have got money. I mean, yes, there are, you know, wonderful female directors and strong women out there that you can work with and everything. But there are loads of men who've got the money and who cast you and who do the deals. And I've still, at this age, being on jobs where there are still uncomfortable things going on or there are ways that, you know, you are being spoken to. And I mean, there's phone numbers now on the call sheets. So if you feel you're being bullied or anything, then you can phone and you can report

someone. But then you kind of think, well, what is actually going to happen if I do do that? Like the next day, you turn up on set and has that person just disappeared? And then everybody knows and is aware of the situation and what's happened and then you're the person who's then responsible for them going and that's quite a frightening thing to have to then take on board you know it does sort of come back to you and not just as a woman just as a person

that's quite a difficult thing to then sort of front out but I mean I've been on jobs like now when I've just gone when you know directors come up to me and said look do you want me to have a word because it's quite clear and I've just gone no absolutely not because that will make it really really difficult for me work wise I'll sort it out myself

so that's recently oh god that's like now, that's like recently now. So I think that it's still going to continue because there'll always be people like that. We can't suddenly change all people. So there's always going to be people that are like, you know, are, you know, difficult and bullying and like that in all professions, not just in acting.

But in acting, I think it's a lot easier for those sort of people to, you know, float around and everything. But then saying that on the finale of Gavin and Stacey, I was in the room at one point and I was looking around and I was specifically looking at the women, but, you know, so I wasn't looking at men or anybody else or I was looking at the young girls all around me and there were like the, you know, the camera crew

and the wardrobe and the makeup assistants. And I was looking at all these young, you know, early 20s girls and there was like a different feeling with them than when I was that age. And I just felt, oh my God, this is quite wonderful because they're all really strong. And, you know, God knows, I don't know what they were feeling like inside, but on the outside, there was this real whole thing

of like not apologising. And I've, you know, grown up on like, where it's kind of like you're so thankful to have got the bloody job and you're so pleased to be there that you're just like sort of excusing yourself on the like, oh thank you, thank you very much, you know, the thought of like closing down a day of filming or stopping something to go, oh so I'm sorry, I'm a bit uncomfortable. I thought, can we just stop filming? You know, I thought we were just going to be kissing. But now it appears that I'm having sex. Oh my God, I just couldn't have done that when I was early 20s. But these girls, there wasn't any sense of apology or sort of thankfulness

of being allowed to be there on set on that job. It was like, yes, you know, this is my job. I'm a wardrobe assistant. Yes, I'm a makeup artist, you know. Yes, I'm on the camera crew and I'm doing this. And there was no apology. No, it was like, this is my job. It was just, yeah, I'm going on with my job. And there was a real confidence. And no apology. Just like, yeah, I should be here. This is my space. I'm owning my space. This is where I am. And it felt really nice. And I just, oh, God, that's just, that feels wonderful. That feels really good. And that felt like a change. But then, like, on the other hand, there's still like literally now, there are things going on where I'm like, oh my God, no, please don't say anything. Because it's.

going to make it incredibly difficult for me. I will deal with it myself and I will just get on with it. So that's how you deal with it yourself. You just get on the go. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I'll either, you know, give something back or, you know, be quite mouthy back or, you know, distance myself from someone. And I will just like, have to, you know, in my mind, put it over and just go right, okay, just get on with it. You're here. You've got a job to do, turn up, do the job, you know, go back home, pay the mortgage and just get on with it because that's, you know, what you're to do. And because, I mean, in certain jobs, it's just too difficult. So, like, what happens, the whole job is, like, brought to a stop and everyone ends up then moving on to something

else and losing their jobs. Or that person gets, you know, they got rid of. And I don't want that responsibility on my shoulders because I don't know what's going on with them. I mean, it's just, it's just too much. So, I mean, the times that, and that I've been there, I've gone right, okay, I'll just deal with myself and just get on with that. And the things that you're being said, are they, like, bullying nasty comments? Oh, it's normally. It's always not, it's always sexual. Always sexual. It's like, yeah, always kind of bullying, but always with a sexual streak to it. And you just kind of go, oh my God, you know, it's just so boring still. It's always, you know, sexual bullying, always. I'm so sorry that you have to put up with that. I know, but it's

not, I'm kind of, I mean, I'm 48, I'm bloody, you know, I couldn't give a shit now. I can, you know, it's like, I'm kind of like, oh, there we go, you know. I go back home and I go, and, and what I like now is that, because I'm presenting, I think I like it as well, because I, I I'm just in my own world. So it's mostly just, you know, me there. And so, you know, and so if I'm on something where it's not, I go back home, I've got the kids. I just go, oh, forget about it and whatever.

And you try and do your best to support other women or other people, you know, it's not just women. I mean, you know, to support others and youngsters coming up and just to be there and be somebody that, you know, someone can come and talk to and that you can offer advice and encouragement for, you know, other people there. And then, you know, just go back home to your safe space. I make it sound ever so miserable.

I've been very lucky in the opportunities I've asked. I don't do that. You don't have to be thankful. You don't have to be thankful. And I hope, Joanna, for the sake of the acting industry and for the sake of us and, you know, our enjoyment at home, that you continue acting. And you don't become a sex therapist.

Well, it was only writing this that I started, remembering and getting my love of it back. I mean, talking about from hell and thinking, oh my God, I remember, you know, when I had to have the wig fitted and then the lobotomy. And then the excitement of lying there and Paul Reese putting the mask on me and me like thrashing away and having the lobot.

I mean, and I started remembering how much fun it was when you're there and you're on set. And it's like the magic and the excitement. And then they shout action and then you start, and you're in another world. And I thought to myself, oh my God, yeah. I mean, you know, I'd love to get back now and start doing some more.

acting but I mean but but you've got to sort of mesh it with with your own world because you know the kids are like three eight 10 and 12 and you kind of think when they get a bit older oh that you can sort of then start going and doing your own thing but I mean Eva's 12 nearly 13 and I think she needs me more now than ever and so I so I'd say you know a huge part of me has just gone right that's where I am and also because we've had bow now I mean I was 44 when I got pregnant with bow because I think well as soon as they've got up and then they've moved on a bit and you know they've got to like about i don't know flipping 16 17 17 18 and they're on their own but by the time bow gets to that age i'm basically going to go straight into retirement and then

probably death i don't think so i think there's a lot of life left in you joanna page thank you so much for sharing your therapy this is lovely i could i would like to carry on talking to you but i'm aware that all We have been going. We've been going for... It's so lovely. I can do this every week. Oh, good.

Let's do a podcast. I love this. It's amazing. I don't know about you, but my world feels a little bit brighter after that sit down with Joanna. How good was her Margaret Thatcher impression? And how much do you want to hear her true crime series? If you want more Joanna Page, her book, Lush, is out now. And guess what?

She's going to be back on Friday for our special bonus episode, The Life of You, where you're going to find out about the rather dodgy gift that Gareth Gates gave her one Christmas. Don't forget to subscribe, follow, rave about us to your friends. But most of all, keep being you. I'll see you next time. Thank you.