The Life Of Bryony - Louise Butcher: I Run Marathons Topless to Show the Power of My Post-Breast Cancer Body

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

This week, I’m joined by the phenomenal Louise Butcher – a woman who runs topless as a powerful celebration of her post-breast cancer body. Louise shares her experience of living with and learning from breast cancer, and how losing her breasts transformed her life. We discuss the realities of health anxiety, the shock of diagnosis, and the journey through double mastectomy and flat closure. Louise describes how running topless became both a statement and a source of strength, helping her reclaim her body and inspire others facing similar journeys. Our chat unpacks grief, survival, body acceptance, and why sometimes the most liberating thing you can do is run in your pants. If you or someone you know needs hope – and a powerful reminder that scars can be a symbol of survival not shame – this episode will lift your spirits and remind you that you’re not alone. Listen, share, and let’s all celebrate living fearlessly, in every sense of the word.WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOUGot something to share? Text or send a voice note on 07796657512 – just start your message with LOB.Use the WhatsApp shortcut: https://wa.me/447796657512?text=LOBPrefer email? Drop me a line at [e-mail] this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who might need it – it really helps! Bryony xxCredits: Host: Bryony GordonGuest: Louise ButcherProducer: Laura Elwood-CraigAssistant Producer: Tippi WillardStudio Manager: Sam ChisholmEditor: Luke ShelleyExec Producer: Jamie East  A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

For a moment, I want you to ignore the fact that I'm sitting here in my underwear. It will all make sense in a moment. Because sometimes a person comes along who's so damn inspiring that I immediately have to hug them down, become friends with them and get them on this podcast. Louise Butcher is one such human. She's the only other person I know who likes to run long distances in their underwear. Louise runs Marison's toopless to show off the power of her. her post breast cancer body. Since her double mastectomy, she's run five marathons, four halves,

and today we're getting almost naked to talk about finding love for your body. I've done so much research about mastectomies and flat closure and there was so much shame. And there was women who just felt they never love the bodies again. I just felt like if I'm covering them, how am I telling people that I'm accepting my body? My chat with Louise, Coming up right after this. I didn't know anyone else who ran around in just their underwear until I met Louise Butcher, who is joining me today on the life of Brieney. And Louise, you take it one step further than me, don't you? Brian here. I'm so pleased to be here. Oh my gosh. This is amazing. I'm so pleased that you're here in no clothes. I've got shorts on.

Yeah. Actually, you've got more clothes on than me because I've only got knickers on. Yeah. Actually, yeah. Yeah. Well, I do run around topless. Yeah. If someone is listening and not watching, they might be like, oh my gosh, but there's a reason you run around topless, Louise. Yeah, it's a really important reason. Lots of important messages because I had breast cancer two and a half years. Well, it was about three years ago now. And I had a single mastectomy. I advocated to get the other breast off. Quite a long story there. And yeah, I can explain that. So I had lobular breast cancer, which is really hard to see on mammograms. I'd had a mammogram three weeks earlier and it hadn't showed up. I mean, I was like, and then when they took the breast off, there was five centimetres really close to the chest wall. So it was a massive

shock. They had to take the breast off because they couldn't find clear margins. So, hang on, hang on, let's go about what was about? So you had a mammogram as part of just a routine? No, it was a private one because I had health anxiety. Okay, so let's go right back. So you were anxious that you might have breast cancer. So you took yourself for a mammogram and that was clear. Yeah, but it wasn't, I wasn't anxious. I might have breast cancer. I just wanted to, you know, when you want to tick that box that I didn't have it,

there was no symptoms. So I was literally like, oh, I feel it. Because I got over health anxiety, well, kind of got over it. And I was like, let's just tick a box. There's nothing wrong with my breasts. And then I had all this confidence to have a really deep self-checking the shower. Right. And that's when I found a really small, tiny little thickening in my left side of my left breast.

Okay. It wasn't even like a lump. It was just like it felt like it was attached to something else. So having the mammogram gave you the confidence to be able to actually perform your own self-check. Yeah. A good one. So interesting. A good one.

I mean, I did do it, but it was a bit like, oh, I don't know, I do it. You know, when you're just worried what you're going to find. So I did do them. but I probably didn't do them properly. And I went to the doctors a few times over the years and got them to do it. Because I was just worried what I might find. I think that's so relatable for a lot of women.

Yeah, I think so because you're just so scared. I was so scared, oh my God, if I find a lump, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. So I didn't know anything about. I just thought, if you've got a lump, that's it. It's the end. And it's not necessarily true. So you found this thickening.

Yeah. Until you went back to the doctor. I went back and I wasn't worried, actually, because I'd had this clear mammogram. I was just like, oh, it's just a cyst. But I went to the doctor just to check. And the doctor said, oh, no, it's fine. There's nothing. It's nothing.

It doesn't feel sinister. But she sent me to the breast clinic because of my health anxiety history, which is like constant going to the doctors for all sorts of reasons. So she wanted to give me peace of mind. Right. And then there they, what, did they perform an ulterior? They did. And I ran in, because I was training for the virtual London Marathon at that time, ran in in my London Marathon top, feeling on top of the world. I wasn't worried. I was just like, oh, it's just a check. I was literally thinking I was going to be there five minutes. And then when I got there and this called my name, I was like, oh, I still wasn't worried, but I was a bit like, you know, when you're in that clinical setting, and then they did this ultrasound. And it was literally within the first two minutes, she kept going over the same area over. and over and over. And at that point, I knew. And so you'd had a history of quite intense health anxiety. What happened in that moment when your worst sort of fears came true?

It felt like a big joke. It felt like I was part of this big joke. It was just because I'd been so scared, it wasn't necessarily breast cancer I was scared of, it was anything. I mean, if I had a stomach pain, I had stomach cancer, if you had a headache, had a brain tumour, I mean, I had everything. I didn't, but obviously when you're in that cycle, it's just really hard to live with. So when I actually, I mean, I knew at that point. And then when I said to the stenographer, is it normal? Does it look normal? She said, no. And then I just, I remember turning to the window and it was raining outside. And like a tear. Oh, we kept me really upset this.

Oh, my God. I didn't think it would bring back, like, the emotions when I mentioned that. My God, I haven't got upset in ages. Are you okay? I think it was just that. I just felt so sorry for myself. And I can now remember, I can now remember that person. And I feel sorry.

I don't feel sorry for me now because I'm like, I feel sorry for that person then. Oh, my God, that really triggered me. Do you, do you? I'm totally fine. But it's funny because you don't realize when. it's just going to come back. Yeah. And that's just, and I haven't got upset for at least a year.

Is it, do you feel a sort of sadness for that version of you that lived in so much fear? Yeah. And that's what, I think that's what I've just got upset about because I look back at that Louise and I feel so sorry for her. Not necessarily the cancer as such, but living in all that. Because I had health anxiety all my life. I had it when I was a kid. I used to worry about my mum constantly.

Then I worried about my kids and I worried about me. And I feel sorry for that. that person and then the cancer came along and it looked like it looked like a sick joke and I think that's what that's why I got upset because I just remember turning a tear file down and I just look at that person now and that's what upsets me because I just feel sorry for that Louise that I lived in that much sort of pain I think so you got this diagnosis of breast cancer and because it was very deep in your in your chest they what they gave so they you have one breast removed, but you advocate for your second breast to be removed because of the depth of the

other cancer, the cancer in the other breast. Yeah, there were lots of reasons. There was the worry that it was in the other one, because obviously if you can't see it on scams, how do we know that it's not starting out or it's early in the other one? Because lobular is usually seen when it's big, which was mine was big. But when it's starting maybe one centimetre, it sort of weaves in and out like a spider's web, so it doesn't catch the light on a mammogram. It wasn't even seen properly on an MRI scan. Right. So the ultrasound scan picked it up.

The ultrasound scan picked it up, but only little bits, like tiny little segments of it, not the whole five centimeters. So when the ultrasound picked it up, it was like, there was like a nine millimeter bit there, there. There was like two millimeters here. There was three there. So they didn't know if it was connected. Yeah.

But obviously when they took the breast off. It was, and it was five centimetre years. So it's really interesting because you hear a lot now, and this is only, it's amazing to think that women's health has sort of been so kind of ignored and dismissed over the years. It's only now we're hearing about breast density as well. So mammograms, and this isn't to like make anyone listening freak out or anything. It's just to say to give you this information, because I've found this as someone with kind of large breasts that are, they feel weird.

And so I never know quite what I'm feeling for when I do my self-check every month, you know, because they're quite, my boobs are quite dense. And what I didn't realize until quite recently was that mammograms don't necessarily pick things up if your breasts are dense and ultrasounds are much better. So there's also, but also what you're talking about is this world where you can advocate and say, actually, I want to have an ultrasound. Actually, I want to have that second breast. the other breast removed as well.

Yeah, it's really important to do that because it's your body. When they left me with that one breast and they said, no, we're not going to take the other one off. I'd asked over and over. It was me that I had to live with one breast. And some women are fine with it, and that's fine, but I wasn't.

I couldn't cope because it reminded me what I'd lost. It also made me fear this breast. And actually what was really peculiar about the whole situation was I could look at my scar really easily, I couldn't look at the other breast. Really? I could not look at it.

And I think it was because of the fear of this one and tried to kill me. So I was just left with this flat and this boob. And I just felt it just didn't feel right. And yeah, it was so upset in that part. And it was really lovely of my surgeon because she tried her hardest, but she kept saying we can't do it.

The NHS won't take off a healthy breast. And lots of women say the same. It's not just me. So how did you get them to take off that breast? Lots of ringing up and saying I can't cope. But eventually, and this might, it's not that I was lucky, but because it was lobular, they wanted to get clearer margins on the chest wall

because they didn't know if it'd gone into the chest wall. So she wanted to make sure she'd got it all. And she said, when we go back in for a second surgery to take a little slither of the skin, we'd take that one off. Okay. And then you, so the thing about you, Louise, is that you didn't, lots of women, and again, everyone's choice is, is, is their choice and we respect all choices. And your choice was not to get reconstructive surgery. Yeah. Why was that? So there was a few reasons. One, I wanted to carry on running really quickly because I was training for this. And the boobs would hold you back? The reconstructing surgery would hold me back because it's very, it's quite an intense surgery.

It's a longer surgery. It takes longer to recover. There's lots, it's not just putting a pair of boobs there. You can have, there's two types of reconstruction. You can have the implants or you can have where they take the fat from wherever you've got some fat on your body and then they sort of mold breasts. But it's really invasive. and many women say it's painful, it takes long time to recover, it goes wrong. Not all do, but some do and they end up with flaps of skin.

Also, because lobulus so hard to see on scans, I wanted to see because I'd been so not being able to see it, at least I could see if it came back in the scar, which is if it comes back in the local area, it'll come back in the scar. So I wanted to see what was going on. And I also didn't feel the need to put anything back. Because they weren't my breasts. My breasts were gone. And it didn't feel the need to go,

well, I need to put something there. It didn't feel necessary. When did you make, you discovered running about, you said to me, so yesterday Louise and I ran a 10 kilometres through London in our pants. It was the Vitality 10K and the Celebrate You Wave. And I know lots of people who tune into The Life of Briney will have taken part in it as well.

There were loads of women doing it, some in their underwear, some just doing it because they wanted to, you know, it was their first experience of running. And they wanted to do it for the way it made them feel. And yesterday, so obviously we had a kind of pre-podcast interview as we ran through the sort of slightly drizzly cold streets of London past St. Paul's. Very like, when do we get, we said, we're like, when will we get the opportunity to run? in our underwear past Buckingham Palace. Actually, Louise, it turns out for the two of us quite often. Because you did the London. We both did the London Marathon this year.

We're doing it regularly. Yeah, I see it. I don't know. I said that. The king is sick of us. Or maybe not. Maybe he's overjoyed. Maybe.

But it was really great. It was just such a wonderful experience. And the response to you in particular was incredible. was incredible. There were women who, and like older women as well, who, so I'm going to say like women in their sort of 70s, 60s, who would obviously have breast cancer, who were coming up to you and hugging you.

You know, you were getting stopped at every turn by women who were running and had been inspired by you. I love that. I remember at my darkest point, I think when you get told you, when you've got a diagnosis of cancer, that all you want to know is how much time am I going to come out of this? Are there people who've got it and lived?

You just care about living. And I remember I wanted to see it. I wanted to see somebody who'd gone through what I'd gone through and come out the other end and they were living this amazing life and they were having fun and I couldn't see it. I mean, like you see pictures of women with mastectomies and maybe flat closure surgery, but it was all a bit hidden and shone and hidden and shone.

What's flat closure surgery? So flat closure surgery is when they pull the skin tight. So like this, they'll pull the skin tight and it'll just be flat. Okay. So that's, it's called flat closure surgery in that sense. And I wanted to see that person to give me that hope. And I couldn't see that person. So I became that person I wanted to see.

Be the change you want to see. I wanted to. And then what's amazing about this whole. journey is now when women come to me, that just makes me feel, I'm going to get upset again. What is it wrong with me today? There's nothing wrong with you. I think, like literally I think, I think anyone listening is going to be asking the best, the better question to ask is what's right with you? Because there's so many right things about, like, where do we start? Like, I love this idea of, you know, you wanted to see someone living proudly post-best breast cancer and,

loving their body and living fully to their body. And in a sense, you know, this is what we were talking about yesterday is that you started running about six months before your diagnosis as a way to help your health anxiety. So you discovered this way to sort of give you endorphins, to get out of your head, so to speak. And then, you know, marrying it with this moment where the thing you most fear, which is having some sort of cancer, comes true. And then weirdly, though, the thing you most fear happening gives you freedom to live your life fully in a way that you never had pre-cancer. You put that so well, Brian, oh my gosh. That was amazing. And that blows my mind because there might be someone listening right now who is perhaps they've found a lump or they've just been

diagnosed with breast cancer or they're into the journey. And they need to hear that message of hope that we need to hear about people living with cancer and surviving and going on and doing these amazing things as opposed to dying with it, which is what previously, only until very recently, like I would say in the last five years, did we, have we started to see people kind of really break through that mould? But, you know, For you, and you mentioned this yesterday, you were living a kind of half life before your breast cancer diagnosis. I wasn't living. I was not living. I would have said the last 10 years, I wasn't living. And I think mental health, the mental health journey I was on was just as hard as the cancer journey,

really? If not harder. Why was that? Because when you diagnose with cancer, people come around and everyone gives you flowers and they give you hugs. And they give you hugs. and you get support and you've got like a plan and you've got doctor's appointments, you've got the surgeon, you get to know the surgeon, and we used to joke about this hall every two weeks because every two weeks, you're back at the hospital having some appointment every two weeks,

and you've got this plan with mental health illness, there's no plan. I just kept going around in this circle, and there was no way out, and it was just constant. I'd wake up in the morning, having a panic attack. I mean, the hardest, the easiest things I could, could do now, like, get my kids to school, I couldn't even do. I could not, I could not get up to get my kids to school because I was so obsessed with getting to the computer to find out what was wrong me that morning because I'd walk up having a panic attack. And I thought, I think

the thing with health anxiety is because all this stuff's going on in your head, it creates these physical symptoms. It just sends you around in this circle because you've got the physical symptom. Then you think, well, something wrong me then. And then you get more physical, there must be something wrong with. Then you Google. And it's like, it's like, it's like, It's obsessive. And I am quite an obsessive person, so I'd get obsessed with it. So you also become attached to it and nothing else matters. It was just, and that's, I think that's, it's so weird because I feel more sorry for that, Louise and the Louise than this Louise.

I love this, Louise. I love this. And I can't explain it more than the sense that cancer made me live. And that sounds really weird, but oh my God, it so did. It really did. Because I tell you what it felt like. It felt like someone would come up to me and slap me around the face. It was the harshest, harshest teacher, but the best teacher.

Wow. That's given me chills. It's giving me chills. Oh, my God. I've got chills. But it was. Not just because we haven't got any clothes on. I'm really warm.

But like, it's amazing. I've heard this people say. It's like, I mean, it does teach you how to live, right? Gotcha. Because suddenly there's this kind of, you realize that life is finite. And also, you know, I think I imagine there's lots of people listening who, you know, relate to that thing of. I don't want to check things because what if there's something there? And then there's a classic health anxiety kind of spiral.

And then when you kind of separate yourself from it and have a moment and, you know, know, I've had lots of health anxiety in my life. Surprise. You know, like, but it's, when you separate yourself from it and you step back, it's like, well, actually, if there is something there, we want to find out about it because then we can take action and we can have a plan, as you say. And it's, you know, like, I think that's the thing is that you hear so often and what you're talking of and tell me if I'm getting this wrong entirely, but it's that kind of, it does bring

you into the present. And it's like, actually, we're living in the solution, not the problem. Yeah. And that's, I think what I was always doing was living in the problem. And I didn't have the confidence to think I could find the solution. And when I went through the cancer journey, it taught me that I did have the confidence because I didn't have a choice. I think when you've got a choice, you're kind of away from it. But when you haven't got a choice, you're pushed into it. You have to go through it. You have to, no matter what, it's awful. It's just, But you have to go through it. And then you learn lessons and you learn, actually, I have got the confidence.

So when you come out at the other end, you can put that into other aspects of your life. And then I realised the health anxiety was about the fact I didn't think I had the confidence to be able to cope with really hard situations. So in a way, strangely, breast cancer has cured you of your health anxiety. Yeah. When did you make the decision that you were going to, because obviously running had unlocked this kind of new dimension of life for you as well, and it was all happening at the same time. When did you make the decision that you were going to proudly run topless?

It was over a week. My husband was going up to see his family, and I'd organised, I'd already done a virtual London marathon, not long after my second mastectomy. That was fully closed. So this was back in what, 22? Yeah, it was in October. And then when I, April came around

and it was when the London Marathon was doing the six-month thing because it was after COVID times and it was going back to April. And I was doing another virtual. And I wanted to do it because I've done the first one and I was like, you know,

I did it because I didn't want to be pitied in the sense of I'm running a marathon now, guys. Because I think that's the thing when you get diagnosed people. people pity and I hated that. And then April came around and I thought, I really need to get these messages out of there because I've done so much research

about misectivism, flat closure and there was so much shame. There were women who were so ashamed of it. And there was women who sort of gone to the grave and they just felt they never loved their bodies again, couldn't look in the mirror. Oh, and I can understand that to a sense because it took me about six months to grieve my breasts.

You don't just go, Oh, yeah, I've got no breast night, it's great. It takes about six months. Well, it took me six months. And I was like, I had to grieve that person and I grieve that person. And I wanted to do something good. And I wanted to be, I just felt like if I'm covering them, how am I telling people that I'm accepting my body? And that's kind of like, when I got this moment, I was like, oh, I could have run the marathon topless.

Because then you're not just showing that you're proud of your scars, but you're showing it with resilience, running a marathon, the discipline of running a marathon, the strength, the power. So then you've got these two areas, the pity of it, which people, pittier, which I hated, and this strength, and you're putting it together. And then I was like, what are people going to do with that? And that's kind of where it came from. What did people do with it when you first did it? So you first did it in what, 2020? 20, 23, April. So I did the virtual. So I did it in my hometown, ran along the track trail, 26 miles. So you live in Devon? It was a little bit rainy that day. There were people out with their umbrellas. So you were by yourself? Yeah. Because, okay, so, because it's,

there's, it's one thing running in your underwear, like just topless or in your, like, in my experience, I can run in my pants when there's lots of people around and it's a race day because people are like, oh, she's doing that because it's, because it's, it's the marathon or it's the half marathon or whatever. But you were running virtually. So you were running virtually. So were running by yourself? Yeah, by myself. And how did people respond? A mixture.

And I wanted the mixture of responses because the point of doing it was to get the positive and the negative. So it created the discussion and shored the stigma. So I knew when I went out, I was going to get the second looks, the staring.

Oh my God, what have I just seen? I did have one lady sort of flagged me down trying to stop me. What as if she was? jumped tight in front of mist, I'd stop trying to stop me. But I had my headphones in, so I didn't really hear what she was saying. So I just went, did she think maybe that you thought you didn't know that you hadn't got a top on? Did she like, uh, you need to stop.

You've forgotten to put your top on her. I don't know if you're aware of this. I think by the look on her face, she wasn't very happy about what I was doing. Well, she can get over it. But I kind of didn't really hear what she was saying because I had my headphones in. So I was kind of like, oh, thanks, bye. And then there was other ladies and people sort of clapping. because people knew I was going to do it

because I'd put it on social media the day before. So people had come out in the rain with the prolly's up to clap me halfway. And then my friend Kirsten ran the last 11 miles with me. So I did run it with her on the way back, but on the way that I was on my own. But yeah, and then I'd organise people to be at the end. It was just brilliant.

It was just, and oh, I'd got the local news to come as well, but they only did sort of that. Right. So this is what you were saying before. Yeah. Yeah. So they only filmed you from the neck up. Neck up. Because I asked, I said, you must show my scars. That's the point. But at that point, obviously, we're talking a while ago now when I first started doing it. Well, it's only two years ago. Things have come along with. It's not the dark ages. Well, no, but you'd think, wouldn't you? I brought it on a bit, you know. But I knew it was a work in progress. I knew it wasn't going to happen overnight. I knew I'd have to keep doing it. That's the thing as well. is I couldn't just do it once because if you did it once and then went back to running with the top, it's just forgotten.

And also it looks like, oh, she wasn't comfortable. There's something quite addictive about it as well. I definitely saw that yesterday. We were talking about this where we had, there were probably about seven or eight other women with us

who were in their underwear. And one of them was saying to me when we got to like Downing Street, we all stopped and wiggled our asses in front of Downing Street. And they were, I was saying, you know, like, I feel utterly liberated, this woman who hadn't done it before. And she said, you know, because tomorrow, when I go to work and I'm in a meeting with my boss who's being an asshole or whatever, and I think, oh, God, I can't deal with this. You go, absolutely, you can deal with this because yesterday you ran 10K in your underwear through central London and you're an absolute legend.

And there is something just incredibly liberating about it. Like once you've done that and you've also seen that actually the world doesn't wobble on its axes and actually 99.999% of people are just, they just love it. They want to see it. You'll make it, you know, they feel so warm. Like yesterday we have this bit towards the end where all of these like elite runners, like the running clubs, the like really cool young dudes who, you know, they're like fitness influences or whatever. and they were like lining the sides of the streets roaring for us, weren't they? Yeah, they were. They were.

And I was like, this is what it's about. Yeah, of course. And I think you're right. You do. Because it's a sense of freedom. It's a sense of also like pushing all this social norm and judgment and all this stuff that you get shoved on you as a woman off and going, no, I want to be my authentic self. You know, like when you're five and you just got this freedom and you run around and you're knickers and you don't care and you're not bothered what you look like.

And you're like, oh, it's like, it's like that. And I can't explain it to people when I run Topless because that's what it feels like. It feels like I'm going, I'm just being me and it's, and I'd never felt better than when I'm running now when I'm running. Because it's like an empowerment and you also get this feeling of like power and strength and oh my god it just it's just brilliant because you're also getting the endorphins from the running as well yeah let's talk about that because yesterday you were saying um that you know you you would just you love running so much it's given you so so so much in terms of your mental health

yeah i saved my life really i would say that without a doubt there's been times i want to be here um not just in my mental journey mental health journey but in the physical when i had cancer I didn't want to be here because I know a lot of people say it's selfish but unless you're in that position you can't judge because there was there was a point where I this was in the cancer journey me in this journey in the cancer journey still want to be here and I drank and I kept saying it to people because I just was scared I was going to do something and it's really judged when you say that and I remember my husband's family saying you can't say that you've got kids think about the kids. And I was like, I am thinking about the kids. And the reason I don't want to be here is because

I didn't know how my cancer journey was going to go, I didn't want them to see. I'm going to get upset. Why do I keep getting upset, Brian? You just, you're talking about, oh my God. And it's just like, quite emotional things, Louise. Yeah, I know, I know. I mean, it's definitely fine to get upset. It's just I haven't got upset in so long. I just, you think you're over it. And then you're like, oh my God, it just comes flooding back. But it was literally like, you know, I don't know what I'm going to be like. I don't want to see my pain. And also, you feel guilty. I felt guilty on my family that I brought this blackness. And it was my fault. And their lives were ruined because of me, because I had this cancer. And they weren't making me feel like that. You just feel like that.

You feel like you've ruined their life as well. How old were your kids when you got your diagnosis? So Pollyanna was five. Wow. I know. I know. God, it's just heartbreaking. And Oliver was 11. so yeah it was a really well any any age is horrendous but I just felt it would be better if I wasn't here because then they wouldn't see the suffering and the and I wouldn't bring all this blackness to them yeah it got quite dark and I think that's judged quite harshly because it's not because you're selfish it's because you feel selfless in a sense yeah you think you're doing the right thing yeah I totally understand that And so running enabled you to kind of get out, I mean, literally get out, literally get out of the house and get out of your head for a little bit.

I mean, I used to run for no reason and didn't know why I was doing it. I think it was the fight or flight when I used to have a panic attack. And also when I was in my health, anxiety, darkness as well, the running became something that I was tricking my mind into saying, well, you can't have anything wrong with you because you're running. So you must be fit. You're running. And I remember saying that to my surgeon because I said, well, I can't have cancer. I'm a runner when she went.

It doesn't work like that. So it was kind of like, but the running became something that was a focus. It kept me level-headed. I could get out of the house. And it became my freedom. And the place where I train now, the Taka Trail, is one of the only places I feel safe, not safe from anyone, but just safe from myself.

Yeah. Because it was the place that I realized, when I got diagnosed that there was no comfort in the support net work around me. And that's not because they weren't supportive. It's because no one's coming with you if you die. They're still there. You're on your own. And the only connectivity and comfort came from a bigger picture,

which was the environment. And it sounds really spiritual, but it was the only comfort. So when I'm outside and I'm running and there's trees there and the estuary's there and that's where I feel safe. Yeah. And it's just, that's what, and I feel safer there than I do in my house, which is just really odd, but I do.

I get it. It right sizes you, doesn't it? Yeah. And it makes you realize you're not, it makes you realize that you, there's no comfort in being an individual. The comfort is about connectivity. And that's why I love doing what I do now, because that's where, that's where, that's life. Life is that.

Life's not, what house you're living, what you've, what you want. how much money, what your job is. It's about being part of this energy. And I can't explain that enough, but that's where I get my rewards from what I do, the connectivity. Your vibes are like absolutely just elite, legendary, wonderful. And actually, you have explained it perfectly. And I don't know if anyone listening agrees with me,

and I'm sure they will. I feel like you have explained it. Like you just give off this energy. that I think will have made, will inspire people and make people feel, you know, you will have inspired people by talking this morning. Tell me, so how is your health now? So you're in, what do we, what, what, in cancer, what do they, you don't call it in remission anymore, do they? Yeah, they don't call it in remission now. I still take estergen blockers. So mine was estrogen fed. So I have to, I've got no ovaries because I had them out because I grew cysts.

So you were put, you were put into. I was put into surgical menopause. The surgical menopause just before I was diagnosed with cancer. Actually, it was about seven months. And I was scared to death of menopause. I was scared to death of it because I thought, my anxiety is going to go through the roof. Oh my God, I'm not going to be able to court.

It was that whole, I didn't have the confidence. I'm not going to be able to caught with this. Why did you, so you had a surgery, you had a hysterectomy? Well, I had my ovaries and my tubes out, but they kept my womb. What was there a medical reason for that? Yeah, so I'd been growing dermoid cysts for about six years. Okay, so that was on and off. And they kept growing back.

They took the ovary out and it grew back on the floppy and tube. So they were like, I think we need to check them out because it could turn cancerous. You're growing things, Louise. You might grow cancer or varying cancer. So we need to get this out. So you were terrified of menopause. We do get terrified of it. You know, we are about to do an episode on this.

this. But you, Louise, was saying that it's literally the best thing that's ever happened to you. I'll tell you now, I have no breasts, no ovaries and no estrogen. And I've never felt better. I swear, these lady things and hormones, what did they do to, what are they doing to me? What did they do to me? Because I've never felt better. But I can't say that because I haven't got them. I think I put it down to the running. I really do. I do. Because the running, And then obviously, I'm on estrogen blockers, so it takes away all the estrogen, even though you don't make it in your ovaries, I haven't got ovaries, but you make it in your liver as well. So they have to get rid of it all or else it could grow back.

And a lot of women come off those because they cause joint pain or menopausal symptoms times 10. So I was thinking, oh, my God, I'm going to get all these symptoms. Don't get any symptoms. Right. I get the odd bit of joint pain here and there, but as soon as I start moving, the fluid comes in. And it all goes. Also, I think it's so interesting, isn't it?

It's that everybody's experience of these things is so individual. And, you know, again, it's like advocate for yourself. Yeah. I think that's the message. And be yourself. Yeah. And don't be ashamed of yourself. Like, that's what I, you know, I love listening to you.

And I'm so grateful when I saw you running the London Marathon in Topless, I was like, I need to meet this woman. I need to meet this woman. I followed you on Instagram and then when we, and I'm so grateful that you came and ran yesterday and that you've come on the podcast and I really hope that we can do some more running together in the future.

I think we should definitely do some more running. You're much faster than me, but it's not just about the running, it's about the laughing. Yeah. And that's another thing. Running is about that. You can go out and find a group

or you can just be with a running buddy. And it's about, sometimes I got, when I got to runs, like, I'll just find a new friend. I started running with them for eight miles. You literally yesterday were, we kept to go, where's Louise? And she was off chatting. I get distracted. Have you noticed? Well, we're very similar on that front, Louise.

Louise, thank you so much. Thank you. For coming in and being your brilliant, unapologetic. full, fearless. Well, no, you're not fearless. We will have fears and that's okay, but you're embracing them. And thank you for being you. Thank you, Brian. It's been, it's been brilliant. Okay, so we may not have had any clothes on while we were chatting, but for me, that conversation with Louise felt like the warmest blanket around me. If you want more of Louise's incredible wisdom, I have some good news. She will be back on Friday for our special

bonus episode, The Life of You. Until then, don't forget to rate, review, follow, subscribe, whatever it is we do nowadays. But most importantly, look after yourself. I'll see you on Friday.