The Life Of Bryony - Matt Willis: How Connection and Compassion Helped Him to Reclaim His Life

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

Welcome to The Life of Bryony, where we explore life’s messier moments. MY GUEST THIS WEEK: MATT WILLIS This week, I’m joined by the incredible Matt Willis—singer, actor, and passionate recovery advocate. You may know him as part of the band Busted, but Matt’s story goes far beyond the music. He shares his raw and honest journey with addiction, relapse, and recovery, offering invaluable insights for anyone facing their own struggles. We talk about the stigma surrounding addiction, the challenges of maintaining sobriety, and the surprising comfort that comes from connecting with others who understand. Matt opens up about the moments that changed his life, his evolving relationship with fame, and how he’s learned to embrace a healthier, more grounded way of living. Whether you’re on your own recovery journey, supporting someone who is, or simply looking for a candid and inspiring conversation, I hope you’ll find something here to hold on to. Let’s Stay in Touch 🗣️ Got something to share? You can text or send me a voice note on 07796657512—just start your message with LOB. 💬 Or use the WhatsApp shortcut - https://wa.me/447796657512?text=LOB 📧 Prefer email? Drop me a line at [e-mail] If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone who might need it—it really helps! Bryony xx Presenter: Bryony Gordon Guest: Matt Willis Producer: Jonathan O'Sullivan Executive Producer: Mike Wooller A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular For More Information and Support In this episode, we discuss addiction, recovery, and mental health. If you or someone you know is struggling, these organisations can help: Forward Trust: Visit forwardtrust.org.uk for resources on addiction and recovery. Samaritans: Call 116 123 or visit samaritans.org for free, 24/7 support. Mind: Call 0300 123 3393 or visit mind.org.uk. For more of Matt’s story, check out his powerful BBC documentary Matt Willis: Fighting Addiction. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to a very special, live edition of The Life of Briny, where we're embracing life's messier moments on stage in front of several hundred people. Today, I'm joined by Matt Willis. You might know him as one of the founding members of Busted, but Matt's journey goes far beyond chart success and touring internationally. His honesty about his struggles with addiction have inspired countless others to face their own challenges head on. I've always felt less that in pretty much every situation I go into, you know, and then

I found drinking drugs. It was a solution to my problem until it became my problem that I needed a solution from. My chat with Matt, coming up after this. ["Fantastic Beats"] So this week, I'm mostly feeling quite terrible, physically, actually. I quite like feeling physically terrible because it makes a change from feeling mentally terrible. I don't know if that resonates

with anyone. When you're just a bit unwell. I don't mean to make light of that. Sometimes I think having spent a lot of my childhood and early life dismissing my mental health issues and sometimes wishing and thinking, God, it would be easier if I just had the flu or I just had a broken leg or something and then people would look after me. Whereas when you have a mental health issue it can be really hard to get people to look after you in the same way that they might someone who's physically ill. And so that's what I mean when I say when I am physically unwell. It's like I give myself permission to treat myself in the way that actually I should be treating myself the whole time. You know, this is like internalised discrimination between mental and physical

health. And I guess if I have that, I don't want to sound bleak and be like, we've got a long way to go. But that's kind of why I do what I do. Because, you know, first of all, I want to change things out there. But really, I want to change things inside me. Anyway, I sort of kept away from my husband all weekend because he had man flu, put him upstairs in the spare room and said, don't come near me. I've got to go record a live version of my podcast on stage in front of a cast of hundreds. Not a cast, they're real people. I didn't employ them to be there. So I knew I couldn't get ill. So I sort of put him in his own one-man

lockdown, did the recording. I'm also, I don't know if you remember from a few weeks ago, I'm writing my first adult novel at the moment, by which I mean a novel for grown-ups, not an X-rated novel. And the deadline is coming up. It won't surprise you to hear that I had to get it extended a couple of weeks. Anyway, so I've been juggling that and I was feeling very anxious about having to get on stage and interview Matt about a subject that's kind of close to my heart and also as kind of intimate as addiction. Yeah. And I got through that. I got through that and that makes it sound like I was having to go up chimneys and you know, my job is terrible. What I mean is I did this thing that I was quite anxious about and felt really happy

and just was like really glad that I hadn't listened to my inner negative voice saying that I'm rubbish and I can't do these things. It's really interesting because when I was a child, I was never in any school productions. I was terrified of the thought of going on stage. Like it was my worst nightmare. I found it absolutely mortifying. And now I actually really enjoy it. Like I'm actually quite happy on a stage in front of a massive audience,

but it's the kind of buildup towards it that I kind of, I make myself feel nervous. And maybe that's just a part of the process of making sure that you're being really professional, you know, preparing yourself for it. It's weird, isn't it? As a child, absolutely terrified of any kind of public speaking.

As an adult, absolutely fucking love it. Shine that spotlight on me. I just don't enjoy the buildup to it. If anyone has any tips on calming nerves before big presentations, drop me a note either through WhatsApp or email. All the details are in the show notes. Sure, I could tell you winter's coming or that it brings cold, dry air, but you already knew that. What you might not know is that Dove Deep Moisture Body Wash is made with millions of

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I really loved doing this interview with Matt Willis. I've been on his podcast before and felt a real connection with him, probably because we're both addicts. But it was really interesting because even though we were on a stage, you know, in front of an audience, it felt like I was just chatting to him. And that's often the way when you have conversations about addiction, it's kind of cuts through all the kind of pomp and circumstance and all the stuff around. It's like one addict connecting with another is kind of, I guess, one of the purest best forms of recovery, actually, I think. That thing of reminding yourself that you're not alone.

My interview with Matt took place last week in London as part of the Forward Trust's Let's Talk About Addiction event to highlight Addiction Awareness Week. I am super proud to be an ambassador for the Forward Trust. And while Matt Shobe's life might feel quite unique, his story of addiction, relapse and recovery is really relatable. I hope you enjoy. Would you welcome to the stage please, Matt Willis. Hi. Hello. Hi Matt. Hi. This is not like a relaxed podcast scenario. It's a very different situation. I feel like we should set the scene for people listening at home. There's an audience in

front of us and it's like, I think we're in the Institute of Mechanical Engineers and there's a lot of very fusty old men on not in the audience but on the wall. Anyway I am so thrilled so this is really special to me not just because it's a live episode you were always my favorite one in Busted but also because this is a subject that is really close to my heart, I know it's really close to your heart, and in this room here we're all people that talk about recovery and sobriety and addiction a lot, but out there in the real world it doesn't get talked about enough. And so it's really brilliant that we can have this conversation tonight. And I really want to speak to you specifically, Matt, because as well as being a pop star

and various other things, you also did this brilliant documentary for the BBC last year. Matt Willis Fighting Addiction. It was just so honest, sort of brutally so, about the realities of addiction. So I was so happy that you said yes to coming on. Oh, thanks for having me. It was quite weird doing that, Doc, if I'm honest. Yeah. I mean, we talked about it for a while and I knew I wanted to do something about addiction. You know, there's so much stigma around addiction and it's still kind of something, like you said, we just don't talk about enough. But then part of me was

going, oh, poor fucking pop star. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's just a of something, like you said, we just don't talk about enough. But then partly was going, Oh, poor fucking pop star. Do you mean like it's just a bit gross. And I was just like, Oh God, do I want to be that guy? You know, and then once we started to go down the road, you know, it's like, it's what I noticed when I first went into recovery, I walked into a rehab center and I thought, I'm never going to fucking have anything in common with anyone in this room. You know, how am I going gonna share what my life is like when they're not gonna relate to it,

I'm not gonna relate to them. And suddenly someone spoke and I was like, oh, you're me, I'm you. We have different lives, we have different things that go on, but we share this one very common thread, which is addiction. And that's what I wanted to show. Do you think that's what puts off

lots of kind of high profile people from talking about addiction? I mean, obviously there's what puts off lots of kind of high profile people from talking about addiction? I mean, obviously there's the kind of the shame of it, then there's kind of anonymity and all of that kind of stuff. But do you think it is also, there is this misunderstanding of addicts, of addiction, of like you, that it's a sort of choice? Yeah.

And that's still very prevalent, I think, that it's a choice. You know, you could stop if you wanted to. Or it's a moral failing you know, you could stop if you wanted to or it's a moral failing Yeah, yeah, if you were a better person, yeah, you wouldn't exactly so for rehabs. Yeah, you had a real There's still a couple I want to try and I look realized I Always remember when I say my luck, you know last drink, it was in 2017, but I sort of want to say, it's like touchwood, that's the last, but it really is. I mean, this was what you touched on so brilliantly in the documentary, was that constant fear

as an addict that you're going to pick up again. Yeah. Be that a drink, a drug. Anything. There's a certain feeling that you should be at a place in your recovery where you don't feel like that. And don't get me wrong, I am free from drugs and alcohol. Like I do not think about them on a daily basis. I don't go around trying very hard not to drink and take drugs.

But I am very aware that I am one drink away from being back where I was. And I do see things and I do see behaviour of myself that scares me sometimes and work for me is tied up in all that. It was a very scary life outside of recovery because we can build these very safe little bubbles around ourselves and then we have to go into the big wide world. So I was going to talk to you about this because you had eight years sober so Emma, your lovely wife just before you got married, said, you've got to get clean and sober.

And you went to... She said that for about five years. Okay. But yeah. You took it seriously a month before. A month before, yeah. It was literally a month before. On very last minute, yeah.

I came out of rehab three days before my wedding day. Someone started to clap with her at men's hall. Yeah, they're like, he did what? He did what? Yeah. Less applaud. Yeah. You came out to get married. Yes. They let you out to get married. They did, yeah. And you had eight years. Well, no, I came, I got married and then I relapsed again and again and again and again. I got sober and then after a series of shambles and misery, I eventually got sober when my daughter was about six months old and then I had eight years.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. And then, yeah. And then in 2016, you go back out on tour. Yeah. And someone says to you, would you like a line of Coke?

Yeah. And you go, yeah. Coke wasn't my problem. I only did that to keep myself sober. Yeah. You know, I called it a sharpener. I don't know, I did everything they told me not to do. You know, I wasn't working any kind of program.

I wasn't surrounded by recovery. I didn't have anybody in recovery in my life. You know, I was trying to fit into other people's worlds sober. And I wasn't protecting myself in any way. And I think I was backstage and I don't know, I was feeling left out and feeling like on my own. And I think that's the thing. I think addiction, once you isolate, it wants like on my own you know and I think that's the thing I think addiction once you isolate it once you're on your own you know and then and that's when that door voice went oh I can do that you know I can have a little line and maybe be a bit in the party and kind of not feel so hellishly

uncomfortable in every situation I walk into and then and then I was off to the races for months and months gram after gram after gram. So when you just said hellishly uncomfortable everywhere you went, do you think that is the core of addiction? Because I know it is for me. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it's different for other people. I'm not sure if everyone feels like that, struggles with addiction. But I've met a lot of people who feel like that.

I've always felt less than, you know, in pretty much every situation I go into. You know, and I always felt like everyone just thought I was a bit of a dick, you know, and I'd be better off not there, you know. And then I found drinking drugs and it went away. You know, it was a solution to my problem, until it became my problem that I needed a solution from. You know, it was, it gave me everything I didn't have. problem until it became my problem that I needed a solution from. It gave me everything I didn't have.

It gave me confidence, it gave me ability to talk to people, to talk to girls, to talk to adults. I was like 19 in a world of music and adults and stuff and I didn't know how to behave. Suddenly I was like, all right, we can get on it and everyone's cool. It gave me all that and then first it give if then it take it away, you know. And and it slowly became the opposite. I was suddenly the person no one wanted to call. No one to invite to anything.

It's funny how it turns, you know. You said in the documentary, you spoke about how you come to realize that addiction is a solution to the pain for lots of people. I mean, that's what it is essentially. And as you say, until it becomes a problem in and of itself, I wondered how you feel sitting now on stage in front of all of these people in the- So nervous and uncomfortable.

Yeah. Yeah. Cause I feel quite like, I feel like if we were sitting on a sofa or, do you know what I mean? Without like bright lights and you know, and I think that is an interesting thing about the kind of addiction advocacy that you can stand up and talk about this stuff really articulately, but it is excruciating. Yeah.

I mean, I think that's the thing, isn't it? We search for something to change the way we feel, you know, it's not, we don't become addicts because everything's wicked. You know, it's not like we're like, oh, everything's going great. I'm just going to abuse myself left, right and center, you know, and destroy everybody that comes in contact with me. That's not a very good choice. Is it really? That's not a choice that anyone would willingly make. But I think that's the thing.

There's something about pain. And I heard someone else say that the worst thing that's ever happened to you is the worst thing that's ever happened to you Hmm, and that's the thing like I was always like I heard some people's stories and I was like fucking hell that never happened To me, you know, what have I got my own about or I heard someone's talk and I'll be like nothing But the worst thing that's happened to you is still the worst thing that's ever happened to you, you know And I think you know trauma is it's a bit of a buzzword at the moment, I think, trauma. But there's something that is not being talked about enough, is this effect that trauma can have on you.

And it can, you know, I always kind of expressed it as like, I had this hole in me, you know, that I just tried to shove stuff in, you know, whatever that was, you know, be it drink, drugs, sex, you know, partying, fame, money, anything, just shoves shit in, hoping that it would feel good. And sometimes it did, you know, but then it kind of just opens up again and this fucking hole gets bigger and bigger and you're just shoving bigger things in and it never seems to, unless you address what that hole is, I think you're going to always have it. You've just come back off tour, haven't you? Yeah, just come back, yeah.

And how was that? It was alright. I mean, I've been on tour a lot over the last few years, you know, and I was kind of, I was quite scared about that, if I'm honest, kind of, it's not as wild as it was, it's not as chaotic as that. But that's a good thing, right? Exactly, it's not as rock and roll or whatever people fucking say. I say it's going from the fast lane to the bus lane, but the bus lane is fucking sick.

Yeah. Like, and also it's like, it's quite nice there. Yeah. And nothing seems to go wrong. Just cruise along. Just cruise along, you know, like it's all right, you know, but, but then it was kind of going back into that fast lane a little bit, which I was always a bit scared of. But I realized that I can overtake in the fast lane, but live in the bus lane. Yeah. Yeah. Does that make sense? I love it. I love it. You know, so yeah, I did

my towing and I have this kind of like, these chances to be this thing that I love and I enjoy, but it's not me. And that's the difference. I found it really hard to separate the two. I became all encompassing this kind of persona that I built up for myself, which was fucking Matt from Busted, the dickhead. And then I found it really hard to separate the two. Now I have that for an hour and 15 minutes and I go home.

But I also think that that has become almost, the really interesting thing about you Matt is that you've gone from being, you know, you and Matt from Busted and now you're Matt Willis and you're Matt Willis who, you know, you have this whole huge rich life, you know, you have this incredible recovery podcast on The Men which doesn't just deal with addiction, it deals with all sorts of things. You've done this documentary You're presenting lovers blind. I know I mean that's surely And you get to know the end before the rest of us

Absolutely what you've really come an exceptionally long way and you sort of and also what was so interesting is looking at pictures of you When you were in busted, you know, I feel like you're aging in reverse. My knees can't take the jumping anymore. Oh yeah. How sad's that? Can you try to- After wear sensible shoes on stage. Could you do a jump now?

I mean, only if you will. I mean, I don't, I- I think that's really- We'll do it in a bar later on. Unfair, because I don't have a supportive enough bra on. Neither do I. My knees... I haven't got my sensible shoes on, I can't now. big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month, every month.

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Love that chicken from Popeyes. You didn't have to talk about recovery. You don't have to make this podcast series. You don't have to do documentaries. What made you want to talk about this kind of stuff? I think I'm genuinely interested in it. I think first and foremost, I'm really curious and I get asked a lot and I don't have a lot of answers, which is the worst thing. You know, I get approached a lot by people who are struggling or I get approached a lot by their loved ones or people that are struggling. And that's a really hard question to answer.

What do I do for this person? You know, and then the more I looked into it, there's lots of amazing organizations, you know, the Forward Trust, Action for Addiction, you know, these are incredible things that I didn't know about, you know, and the more you kind of start talking to people, the more you find out. And I find out what saved me was another addict, you know, like

I can, I'm very vividly remember the first time the light bulb got switched on, you know, and it was from another addict who said something to me, which I can't say because I'll fucking break down, but it was another addict who saved me you know and and changed my life and I have everything to thank for that moment you know and I had to keep working at it but that was part of the message was that this is not going away you can't shove it away anymore you have to address it you're probably gonna have to address it every day but it's worth it and that's been my experience you know it has been worth it and it was really hard at times now it's not quite so hard well I, it has been worth it. And it was really hard at times. Now it's not quite so hard.

Well, I say not quite so hard, it's nowhere near as fucking hard. Life is pretty awesome right now, you know, and that's achievable for people. And I think it's how do you get that message to the struggling addict, the struggling alcoholic, you know, and I think that was what kind of made me want to do it, you know, in a way. Do you find, I always remember being in rehab and remember having to sit in these group situations where you had to tell everyone the worst things that you'd done while high or drunk and I remember being like, oh, I can't do this, I can't do this.

And I always remember this counselor saying the point of it is that like is that shame dies when you expose it to the light and it's the most amazing thing You've ever said no, no, I'm sure you said more amazing things Don't be wrong, but that but that can I just say you said that you said that to me in my podcast And that was another light bulb moment for me Like they so fucking true like the power was taken out of it for me Yeah, when I released it and there's such power in that, you know? And we hold on to this stuff, don't we? We punish ourselves with it.

We drink on it. We use on it, you know? And then actually you can relinquish that hold it has on you. And you can actually feel lighter. And what you're saying will help someone else to be able to do the same. Isn't that fucking amazing? It is. That's incredible. And I think it's that thing like the thing that recovery has given me is that and what this, what this like sitting

down and talking addicts to addicts you know it's it's not just the act of not picking up a drink not having a drug it's the connection because as we've heard time and time again Connection is the opposite of addiction, right? And it when I sit down and talk to you or I'm taught to other addicts in this room. I Am right size and I remember that I'm not the worst person in the world. I'm just another person Yeah, and the world doesn't revolve around. I'm not a piece of shit the world revolves around. I remember someone saying that to me at the beginning and I was like, but I am! And it's all those things like, all those, there's so many sayings in recovery, aren't there? Like, our other favorite one is, was it, egos in the penthouse, self-esteem's in the basement. That's

another really good one. But we know all of this. This is the other amazing thing about this illness that we share. It's a wonderful illness. It's that I know all of this and I'm quite an intelligent person. I'm intelligent enough that I've got myself dressed. I've got myself here. I've kept myself alive till the age of 44.

And yet, I'm saying this to you now, and I know that tomorrow morning I'll wake up and it's like my memory will have been wiped. And my brain will just say to me, all it'll want to do is work out, how can I stay under this duvet alone and not have to do any of the things that I am supposed to do today.

What's the quickest way that I can get from this duvet here at seven in the morning to my sofa at six in the evening where I can sit and watch Grey's Anatomy for eight hours and eat food? Or, you know, like my brain doesn't want it doesn't, you know, and I know that I need this and yet this is why it's so important to talk about this stuff. But the thing is that that's the thing that recovery teaches me, right? Is that, you know, I can get up on the wrong side of the bed quite easily and if I want to, I can live there, do you know what I mean? Quite easily and it's quite nice, you know, to live in that fucking

miserable kind of like self-loathing kind of resentful way, you know, it kind of feels good for a second, doesn't it? And then you're like, oh no, this feels awful, awful. And, you know, so I have to do things on a daily basis, which change my thought pattern, you know, away from that self-loathing. What is that? You know, why do we all share that? Why does every addict I speak to have this kind of like, you know, I know we do awful things, right? Because for addiction, we do terrible things, but I felt like I had that from fucking childhood. I suppose that's what I'm finding out from therapy. I do think that's yeah, the therapist once explains to me that when we are tiny children, if our needs when we are babies, if our needs aren't met, and that can be literally, we're

crying out for our parent and the parent is in the other room and is distracted by something and doesn't come to us. For survival we have to turn in on ourselves and blame ourselves. Well the reason that my caregiver isn't coming is because I've done something wrong. Because if we thought it was because our caregiver had done something wrong or wasn't caregiving, we wouldn't be able to survive. I don't know if I'm making any sense here. No you absolutely are. But we take that, so that kind of very early experience, which can happen for all sorts of reasons that don't have to be awful like capital T trauma. And it sort of, it stays with us for the rest of our lives and I know that I

definitely, my internal thing is what have you done wrong now Brynie? Yeah. How And it sort of it stays with us for the rest of our lives and I know that I definitely my Internal thing is what have you done wrong now? Briny? Yeah, how have you fucked up? Yeah Yeah, it's so funny because I can sit in bed and I can um, I could have had an all-day, you know I'll be going to sleep not be asleep very well and I'll be searching for something, you know And I'll go set bother me. No No, that's all right. Is that bother me? No. Oh there it is. Right, let's fucking, let's ruminate on that for a while. There's the thing. There's the thing. There's the thing you fucking piece of shit.

Oh god. Scanning, scanning the environment. Absolutely. You can't feel this good, how dare you. Yeah. Yeah. I'll, no but I will definitely go home tonight instead of thinking, oh, I had a lovely chat with Matt Willis. I've met lots of lovely other addicts. I'll be like, they all hated you. Oh my gosh. Yeah. All hated you and thought you were the worst.

Your husband. Thanks, Matt. Thanks. That's right. So I say, okay, so, so you've now, um, one of the things that you spoke about in your documentary was that recovery is not a one-size-fits-all thing, right? Different things work for different people. And I think that is also really important to talk about.

What works for you? Lots of different things work for me. I've been very guilty of being quite dogmatic. And I think that's, there are certain approaches out there which are quite dogmatic and they have to be for a reason because they Because if you if you want it you have to buy into it, you know And I think some of the things were a bit squiffy that you have to buy into so you kind of have to go fully full hog on it, you know and

Get a bit of fucking addict to you about recovery, you know, you know And you know, but I think there's there's so many things out there that can help you and I think whatever that is If it's working keep doing it, you know, just don't fucking use, you know So it's like we can become really dogmatic about this is the only way because it's the only way that's proven to work But then there's someone over there is doing this and you know, as long as it's not dangerous or gonna hurt someone maybe try that too You know, I've tried lots of different things. There was that great thing where you talk about your rider now for when you go on tour and it was like collagen.

It's so fucking bland. Protein. Nuts, berries. MCT oil. Yeah man, it's so boring. I could get quite high on MCT oil. It gives you the shits though, be careful. Yeah, it does, it does.

First time I tried it they said, take a half spoon first, you know, to kind of become accustomed to it. So of course, I'd say four fucking tablespoons. And it was not a pretty sight for that to be based. Can we quickly talk about this? Because I love talking to addicts in recovery about the way they're still addicts. You know, because people often say to me, oh, Bernie, you don't ever drink. I'm like, yeah, I know, you don't ever drink. I'm like, yeah, I know that I don't ever drink. I have not had a drink. And they're like, you're still an alcoholic. And I'm like, yes, I'm still an alcoholic. Like, it may be seven years since I had a drink, but I wake up every morning a raging alcoholic. Right. Absolutely. And I love one of my favorite

kind of most treasured ways to pass the time is talking to other addicts in recovery about their most addicty behaviour in recovery that isn't drinking or taking drugs. Right. So things like that. So where the fuck do I start? Yeah. Give us a small...

I had to have a firm telling off about my morning routine because it was getting a bit out of hand. Was it going? It took fucking four hours. You know, it's like... Was it going into the afternoon? I mean, it was literally four hours long. It was ridiculous. So tell...

I mean, we've heard about saunas and ice baths today. That was way, that was a big part of it. You know, it still is a little bit, but fuck, I love an ice bath. There's something addicty about that. But yeah, I can become very addicty about everything. Like I would have to get up two hours earlier than I was going to get up to fit everything in before I wake up. It's so bizarre. You know, I'd like it's, it's, it's, it's,

what were you doing? Like gong baths. I was waking up at 4.30 to kind of get everything in before I could get the kids up for school. Do you want to know what it was? Yeah, we all want to know, right? I mean, it started with meditation, you know, because that's good for you, right? Yeah. So I would do 40 minutes, you know, which is far too much, you know, and also I swear 25 minutes of that was asleep. You could have just set your alarm late. Exactly.

You could do 10 minutes apparently, that's fine, but I did 40 minutes. Then it was ice bath, then workout, then sauna, then ice bath, then Wim Hof breathing, then ice bath again, and then supplement routine. Supplement? Okay, well talk us through the supplements. Supplement routine is, well it's still a bit out of hand. But I'm going to live forever. I am, apparently. So they tell me that every bottle that I'll get it. So what's it?

And then after the supplement routine, what happens? After the supplement routine, it was... Gratitude list? Oh, gratitude list. But that's something I do every day. And that's something which I love. Please don't take that away. I love that.

I'm not telling you that you can't do this. Oh, OK, great. I'm not taking anything out of this. I'm confessing.'t take that away. I love that. No, I'm not telling you that you can't do this. Oh, okay, great. I'm not taking anything out of this. I'm confessing. I'm confessing. The Gratitude List is something which I think has been so beneficial for my life. Yeah. And I was told by one of my first fathery figures in recovery to do one and send it to him every day. And I resented the hell out of him for it.

And I had to phone him at 12 as well, the prick. And if I hadn't sent him at 12 as well, the prick. And if I hadn't sent him it, so luckily with about two minutes to 12, I write one quickly and send it to him. And yeah, I really resented him for that. But it's been something which I've carried on, and it's something which I pass on to other people. I buy people notepads, they think it's such a boring present. But a lot of people come back and go, thank you for this. It's great. Well, Matt, you're going to go on my gratitude list tonight. Am I? Oh thanks. You are. Thank you. Matt Willis. My thanks to both Matt and the Forward Trust. It was great to hear Matt

talk so openly about how love and support can pull you through even the very worst of times. I hope this conversation encourages anyone struggling out there to reach out for help. As always, there's some great resources in the show notes. Matt joins me again on Friday to answer some audience questions on addiction. If you're a first-time listener, hit follow and I'll see you again on Friday.